The Coffee Nebula Board is for the discussion of Star Trek: Voyager and other sci-fi/cult shows. This is its Archive of episode discussions, top ten lists, fan fiction, and other miscellaneous musings.


Breaking The Ice

:tv: BREAKING THE ICE Discussion Area...
SuzyQ -- 7 Nov 2001, 22:12 GMT

Vulcans observe the crew as they encounter an uncharted comet.

Trip learns that T'Pol is transmitting secret messages to a Vulcan ship, which has been shadowing Enterprise for weeks. Meanwhile, Archer must attempt a dangerous rescue to recover two crewman stranded on a rapidly disintegrating comet.

"I get a poop question?"
Terry -- 8 Nov 2001, 02:00 GMT

I loved the video message to the schoolkids back home on Earth. It was a nice way to see the crew in a different way. "They're going to think I'm a *sanitation* engineer." Trip, of course, was the highlight.

I don't care people say about Jolene Blalock; I think she's doing an outstanding job as T'Pol. I already like her character a lot more than I ever liked Seven. The smartest thing that the writers have done is concentrate on the dynamic between her and Trip. Those two are definitely the best reason to watch Enterprise right now and they're even better together.

Again, I like how they're portraying the Vulcans. I conjecture that their longterm relationship with humans helped Vulcans learn a little more humility and a lot more diplomacy. These early Vulcans are certainly logical all right. They just think a lot of themselves and not much of anyone else.

BTW, pleeeeeze kill Mayweather! He's making me wish for Harry Kim back. Nooooooooo!

Next week: Archer's first alien-babe. And T'Pol with long hair.

Like Terry, I love TPol
david g -- 8 Nov 2001, 02:15 GMT

Blalock is doing a great job, and TPol is easily my favorite character on the show.

I have to point out, though, that TPol and Seven, since you polemically brought her up, Terry, :) are really different characters. TPol, though abused in earlier eps by the cast, is a confident, poised, secure woman, with, yes, a vulnerable streak, but certainly not the black hole of guilty pain that occupied Seven's center. I think TPol and Seven are more dissimilar than similar, though they are always equated.

I liked BTI a great deal...loved the school-letter stuff and the Vulcan non-fun dinner. I think Im coming around to the premise of the show in terms of Vulcans, who sure dont seem very appealing here. I really felt for the people at the dinner, including TPol, who is, as said, becoming a great character.

I also loved the visuals--the Vulcan ship was gorgeous and the ice cracking was sublime.

But, for an ep with so much new depth, i was astonished by the lack of revelations btwn Travis and Reed. A snowman doesnt a Bplot make. Theyre no Tom and Harry. TPTB seem as bored by Travis as I am. Harry Kim was hugely more interesting than Travis is.

anyway, I still cant get very excited about Archer. I just dont care what happens to or with him--in that he strikes me as very Siskolike.

I think Archer's uninterestingness is the reason why I doubt all of ENT will ever sneak into my heart. But the series is taking some graceful strides.

david g

Re: :tv: BREAKING THE ICE Discussion Area...
Marie -- 8 Nov 2001, 03:10 GMT

Can anyone tell me when this episode repeats in the Atlanta, GA area? It was taken off for a special program....

It was also taken off in Ohio, but I know when it repeats here. Thanks, Marie

I *want* to like this show so bad.
Janeway216 -- 8 Nov 2001, 03:27 GMT

And yet, at the same time, some things are just completely spoiling it for me.

I love the look of the series: the costumes, the sets, the FX. I absolutely adore Hoshi -- let's have a little more screen time for the gal -- and T'Pol is really starting to grow on me. I'm considering applying for membership in the Nebbie chapter of Trip-A-Holics Anonymous, and I like Reed, what little of his character we've seen so far. He's good-looking in an ugly sort of way.

And of course, don't get me started on Porthos.

But at the same time, there's a lot I don't like about this show. Any scene that has Phlox in it just makes me want to writhe. I've likened Archer to Sam Beckett in a space suit many times, and frankly I think I'd like Sam Beckett in a space suit much more than I like Jonathan Archer. I don't know if it's Bakula's interpretation of the role, or if it's the way the role's been written, but he seems to shout his way through most of each episode. Is he deaf?!

Finally, I don't like the producing team. Rick Berman's not so much to blame, but I'm extremely resentful of Brannon Braga for what he did to my Voyager. I see them making some of the same sorts of screwups here. BRRBs, YAATEs, and little to no character depth on anyone. I see the potential glimmering just beneath the surface of Enterprise, and it drives me bats.

So, until mid-season or thereabouts, I'll continue to perch on the fence. I haven't decided whether to stay or to go.


Re: :tv: BREAKING THE ICE Discussion Area...
D -- 8 Nov 2001, 04:16 GMT

I liked the questions from the school kids. It was appropriate to the idea of this being a big deal for humans and shows continuity with similar exchanges with contemporary shuttle and space station crews. But it also provided a plausible excuse to have the plot answer some of the questions viewers have about the technology.


Whatever ship's in the vicinity of Enterprise gets to shadow them? The Vulcans really seem to want the humans to fail and be around to say "I told you so".

I wonder if T'Pol's curiosity about and slowly developing appreciation of humans and human ways is more typical than the Vulcan PTBs would like to admit. That may be why they live in a separate compound in San Francisco, to minimize their exposure to humans outside of work.

T'Pol opens up some to Trip, but obviously she's not telling him the entire story. We can guess why the family of T'Pol's betrothed wouldn't agree to postponing the ceremony. No wonder she has a tension headache.

Random observations:

Tractor beam - another piece of technology Trip's going to want to see if he can figure out. Did they have them in TOS?

Snow on a comet? I thought the outer layer of comets is ice.

Some PTB must like pecan pie - Janeway served it to Gath in "Prime Factors" and here Trip says its his favorite, though if he's supposed to be from Florida key lime pie would have been more appropriate.

Breaking the Mold
Eric -- 8 Nov 2001, 05:18 GMT

I'm with PH, this one really rocked! Maybe after all the hyper action on Andromeda i really needed this one. It was a LOT of fun.

I have finaly come to terms with T'Pol, she made it very hard with that silly Catsuit but here she became a full fledged character.

And the Trip/T'Pol team finaly hit the ball. They became Spock and Bones for the first time. I LOVED the scene in her quarters. Two friends bickering with each other, neither admiting they are wrong but both UNDERSTANDING. This WAS a pure Star Trek moment. Thank you Enterprise!

The classroom part was RIGHT out of a NASA PR stunt like they do on the Space Shuttle all the time. It was weird to stop the rest of the story but it worked. And it was a lot of fun seeing the crew interact like that.

Building a snowvulcan on the comet was PERFECT.

This whole episode was just the kind of character show that i wanted on Voyager for 7 years.

Yes the race at the end was a little unnecessary but it allowed Archer to swallow his pride.

Trivia : Did everyone notice the ring around the vulcan ship? Exactly what the 22nd Century Enterprise pictured in the rec room on the Movie Enterprise in TMP!

They DO pay attention to continuity, they DO!


Guess why T'Pol's betrothed's family won't extend?
Terry -- 8 Nov 2001, 05:31 GMT

I doubt it's because he's going through ponn far and needs to mate soon. IIRC Spock claimed that he had put off his own wedding for years. From which I assume that Vulcans schedule the wedding well ahead of the time it becomes urgent for the males. It is only logical.

I take it on face value. His family is insulted by her excuse of working with the humans.

Yes, TOS had tractor beams. They used it much more often than later shows.

Floridians and pecan pie. My father grew up mostly in the Florida pan-handle. He *loves* pecan pie (and sweet potato pie and banana cream pie with those vanilla cookie wafers). I've never seen him touch key lime.

At first...
D'Alaire -- 8 Nov 2001, 11:43 GMT

...I almost groaned. I'd read the blurb for this one and was cautiously optimistic. It looked like a good character ep, one that would bring out T'Pol and the nice chemistry she and Trip have been building up.

When I heard the line, "It's crude, but accurate," I blinked and saw Seven standing over Neelix. Nooooo! ;)

Thankfully, it got much better from there. ;)

I have to say, I liked Trip and T'Pol better than I have yet--or better to say, I got to know them better than before, and liked what I saw. Both being entirely themselves, they dealt with each other--Trip did the honest, good thing, opening up a little to T'Pol; she, OTOH, confided in him something Vulcans would consider, indeed, very personal. Their scenes, in fact, made the show.

There's still some things about both that don't catch with me (Trip's accent doesn't strike my ear right--it throws him off somehow; T'Pol's emotional slips and Sevenisms are jolting--and that catsuit still bothers me, especially when I see other Vulcans), but I'm more hopeful than I had been about them.

Hoshi wasn't really part of the plot--again--but at least she had good things to do and say, and showed herself to be eloquent and natural in the message to the schoolchildren. Her "I didn't think it was right," to Trip and dumping the letter on her was quite nice. She's definitely in control of herself, and will do her job without crossing her standards.

I had to wonder that if she knew Vulcan and had been decrypting, wouldn't she have peeked at the contents and understood them? No matter. Maybe she just let the computer do it and kept her eyes away. Just a thought.

Archer annoyed the bolts out of me again with his paranoia and, as put already, his screaming his lines (re., at dinner). It makes me long for the clever captains who followed him all over again. Good for T'Pol who told him how to relinquish his pride and surprise her not-to-be father-in-law; bad for Archer that it took a thought of spiting the Vulcan before the lives of his crew to actually accept the advice. If TPTB wanted a flawed captain, they've definitely got one here.

Reed and Mayweather's mission...Well, the snowvulcan was cute and the comet fx were lovely (I loved the distance shots in the beginning), but it was a collection of throwaway segments that I was just waiting to turn to some sort of danger so we could have our dose of action for the ep. Easily, I could have done without it.

So, I'll give it a rating of pretty good. Personally, I could have done with less with the comet and Archer's silliness, and I'd have liked more of an ending, a little more of the dealing between T'Pol and Vanek (that was his name?) and less of the usual paranoia and bad-Vulcan dose, but it was a good ep for T'Pol and Tucker.

Point taken
D -- 8 Nov 2001, 13:10 GMT

I always forget that The Panhandle is more like the rest of the South than other parts of Florida, probably because when I'm there (as I will be tonight for a long weekend) I'm in St. Pete, with the occassional side trip to the Orlando area.

As for the possible Pon Far, I got the impression that the wedding had already been postponed and they wouldn't agree to further delay, which is why I made that assumption. I'll have to watch this one again over the weekend since I did miss parts.

The Great Florida Pie Debate
Ruth -- 8 Nov 2001, 13:39 GMT

On the space coast it is Key Lime all the way! In fact, a cousin made one for my mother this weekend. Although in truth, our Tennessee roots meant that the desserts of choice in our household when I was a child were cobblers.

Have they ever said where Trip is from in Florida? It must be up near the GA/AL border because in my experience people who are my age or younger who were raised below say Jacksonville don't have southern accents. Even mine isn't very pronounced and we moved to Tennessee when I was 12.

Anna Ruthanne

If it's any comfort...
D'Alaire -- 8 Nov 2001, 13:41 GMT

...I share the sentiment. While last night's episode encouraged me, and while I enjoy Phlox more (he seems more natural than most of them put together), I get that same potential "just beneath the surface" feeling too.

It is frustrating, for just as I could try to accept it for what it is (whoch isn't what I'd personally want it to be in the first place) and find the things I like about BtI, I could just as easily rip it to shread for the same reasons--and actually, I have.

T'Pol's problem, though well done in itself, was only skirted around--they treated yet another momentious event, ripe for examination and education, as a b-plot. One thing that annoyed me most about this was that we had no dealings with the Vulcan papa, except to show off another "rude" Vulcan and go completely off topic with Archer's ravings. T'Pol interjecting was good and expectable, but it led nowhere. All the focus was taken off her by Archer. Subtlety is good in doses, but it should also be clever, and shouldn't be so distracted from just so they have a way to resolve thier other, and totally useless, plot.

And the title of the ep was just too ovbious on both sides...Though I do like pecan pie. ;)

Re: The Pie Thing
Vickie -- 8 Nov 2001, 13:49 GMT

Terry's right. Up here in north Florida we're Southerners, right down to the pecan pie. There are no citrus trees up here but we've got plenty of pecan trees.

South Florida, on the other hand, is, well, something else. :-)


I don't know what this world is coming to...
Vickie -- 8 Nov 2001, 14:13 GMT

...because I find myself agreeing whole-heartedly with Eric. This was an excellent episode. Every single moment of it worked. I loved the classroom Q&A, loved the snowvulcan, loved Trip, and loved Trip and T'Pol together.

One of the things that I like the best about Enterprise was especially obvious in this episode: these people are just like me and just like the people I know. The characters on TNG and VOY have always been a bit larger than life and not really like the people I know. Even when the characters on those shows displayed their humanoid failings so you could say, "See, they're just like regular people," they weren't. Not really. The Enterprise PTB have done an outstanding job of populating their show with characters who are real people (at least from my western culture middle class perspective).

I give this one two thumbs up. :agree: :agree:


I've read in several character bios of Trip...
Virginnie -- 8 Nov 2001, 15:05 GMT

...that he's supposed to be from the Florida Keys, and he even made a reference in one of the early eps to going through a hurricane in the Keys. But that accent he's doing isn't South Florida. It's Texas, a la Tommy Lee Jones. Which isn't necessarily a bad thing. Tommy Lee's too cool for school. 8)

Why didnt we see TPol interact w/the Vulcan?
david g -- 8 Nov 2001, 15:11 GMT

On the heels of what you said, D'Alaire, it seems to me that this show is too human-centric. I wished Id gotten a chance to see TPol talk with the Vulcan as he was being escorted off the ship.

What we always get is te humans' pov of TPol and never her own; the show treats her like the humans do.

david g

I prefer, pace Janeway and Trip, key lime pie, m'self. :) NIM
david g -- 8 Nov 2001, 15:12 GMT

I lived in the Florida Keys and...
Malcom -- 8 Nov 2001, 15:32 GMT

That is NOT a Florida Keys accent, as the Keys are not the South in the way Central and Northern Florida are - particularly over 100 from now.

And true Key Lime pie is yellow, not green. So, don't eat the green ones.

That explains why every time I see and hear Tripp
Diane -- 8 Nov 2001, 16:45 GMT

I think George W.!

I have been think this for several weeks now. I really think Conner looks like our President, especically from the pictures I have seen when the George W was younger. Maybe TPTB thought it would be fun to have a character that looks and talks like Bush. If so, then they should have made him from Texas, not Florida.


The only thing wrong with Breaking the Ice was
Diane -- 8 Nov 2001, 17:05 GMT

the classroom scene went on a little too long (I guess the episode ran way too shore), other than that this was a really decent episode. Everything gelled! The A and B plots, the FX, the characters, Tripp and T'Pol (anyone notice Braga didn't write this one). In fact, this was the first week that I could tell the entire cast was a "team." Most seemed pretty secured in their character (my vote is still out on Bakula).

T'Pol was a great tormented Vulcan. Blalock did a good job this week. I think she is beginning to find her character and run with it.

Tripp, what can I say, he is becoming the Tom Paris of Enterprise. I started out not liking him because of his arrogance and am now beginning to like him because of his sensitive side.

My big question, like last week, is what are they doing with the Vulcans? I think they are trying to show their insecurity. My theory, for hundreds of years because of their logical nature, they were the only ones in space. At the beginning they were explorers, now their exploring has become "old hat." They have become more like space monitors, but as other worlds develop their space exploration, they play the arrogant "big brother" overseeing their progress. But, Earth is developing rapidly and the Vulcans have become insecure with their space dominance. Hence, this insecurity is playing out through the "monitoring" and mistrusting. Something in the future, maybe the Romulan War, will change this. Oh well, only my theory, which will probably be wrong.


I hate to admit it...
Vickie -- 8 Nov 2001, 18:04 GMT

...because I loved Scott Bakula as Sam Beckett in Quantum Leap, but at the moment kinda agree with Diane about Bakula's Archer. Archer sometimes seems just a little bit off-key. It's like Scott Bakula can't quite get hold of the character.

OTOH, I think the rest of the cast has really settled into their roles. In particular, I like Reed more every week.


Vickie, I too loved Bakula as Beckett, but
Diane -- 8 Nov 2001, 19:18 GMT

he just hasn't nailed "The Captain Thing." In fact, I don't see any signs of him growing into the big chair. Last week I thought he acted more captainly, but he is still lacking that Charisma that good ship Captains have. He seems to be playing Archer like a little boy with a sense of wonder who is playing captain, not being the captain.

After "Breaking The Ice" I think Tripp shows more promise as a Captain. He seems to have a better understanding of how people "tick," Archer seems to be lacking that quality. Maybe that is what I am trying to say, great leaders/managers/captains understand human nature and will use that sensitivity to his/her's best advantage to motivate those under his/her's command. I don't see Archer making an attempt to do that. He is not reaching beyond himself.


NOOOOO! Reed for Captain! Imagine the Snowvulcans we would have!
Eric -- 8 Nov 2001, 19:41 GMT

I say give Bakula a little bit more time since he is getting better but if we are impatient and must toss him out then i say Malcom Reed for Captain!

I LOVED him in the big chair last week and he has been solid almost every week, even when he only gets a few lines.

Anyguy who builds Snowvulcans deserves to be Captain! :D

To boldly go and blow stuff up!!!!!!!!!


Malcom -- 8 Nov 2001, 19:52 GMT

At times he seems petulant, not a emotion one would recommend for a skipper of anything larger than a PT boat.

I'm thinking more and more it's the writing. He had bad lines here (with the exception of the thing to the schoolkids). And the bad writing forces him to be stiffer, to do more captain-like posing to compensate. Right now, it's just not working.

And I'm still not sold on T'Pol.

Hoshi's scene with the kids was very VERY well done. She's a terrific actor and they should use her more often. The explanation given by T'Pol for not consulting with her didn't wash with me. If I had a problem, she's the one I'd go to.

I agree, Reed for Captain. (nim)
Malcom -- 8 Nov 2001, 19:54 GMT

Re: T'Pol & Hoshi
Vickie -- 8 Nov 2001, 21:03 GMT

Malcolm wrote:

The explanation given by T'Pol for not consulting with her [Hoshi] didn't wash with me. If I had a problem, she's the one I'd go to.

Aww, come on! We all know T'Pol went to Trip because she has the hots for him! :D


I haven't even seen the ep yet...
Virginnie -- 8 Nov 2001, 21:56 GMT

...but I would think that, after the decon scene, one of the reasons T'Pol would talk to Trip is because he obviously *isn't* sexually interested in her. If they can stand there, half-naked, and rub gel on each other while carrying on a full-fledged, double-entendre-free snipe-fest, then T'Pol probably feels that she can discuss a romance/relationship issue with Trip, fully confident that he will not treat it as an opportunity to hit on her.

He strikes me as fake or overearnest or smug, by turns
david g -- 8 Nov 2001, 23:30 GMT

Hence my lack of ardor for ENT (though i like it). The only other Captain i didnt like is...Sisko.

david g

Im hopin for another Trek show to counterbalance ENT
david g -- 8 Nov 2001, 23:35 GMT

God, dont i sound like an addict?

Dont get me wrong, I am enjoying ENT and think it's developing into a good solid show (having travelled leaps and bounds from its lackluster premeire).

But I miss the 24th century--but most of all, id like a different Captain to get me PUMPED for a show the way I am for TOS, VOY...

actually, TNG strikes me as the example of a show with a great Capatin and, except for Data, a lackluster cast--the inverse of ENT.

david g

Tracey, do you have a recipe for REAL Key Lime Pie, the yellow kind?
david g -- 8 Nov 2001, 23:37 GMT

i happen to LOVE Key Lime Pie!


This one's close to the one...
D'Alaire -- 9 Nov 2001, 00:19 GMT uncle, who's a cook and used to live down that way, showed me. His, I recall, had four ingredients--he added a little salt to his and used a real pastry crust. But the filling looks about right otherwise.

I wish I had his written down! But again, this looks close (unlike the lime version of lemon meringe--ugh). --All other Key limers, please advise. :)

One of many, many Key Lime Pie Recepies

TThanks, D'Alaire! NIM
david g -- 9 Nov 2001, 02:22 GMT

Eric -- 9 Nov 2001, 05:08 GMT

Sisko RULED! :p


Ok, that's how i make it
david g -- 9 Nov 2001, 07:05 GMT

but i wondered if there was an extra secret Southern twist that makes it mo'better.


From what I've seen (TAI and ...
Pixie -- 9 Nov 2001, 07:06 GMT

15 minutes of Unexpected) and everything I read, I agree that the writing has let Backula down. They don't write him like a captain. He seems kinda meanspirited and arrogant, NEVER a good idea in a Captain. The writers are trying too hard to creat artificial tension/friction because it's too hard to set up natural tension.

Ditto to all... ;-)
Deb47 -- 9 Nov 2001, 11:37 GMT

Except the pecan pie.

I'm a chocolate meringue (sp?) kind of gal myself.

BTI had moments, but I still can't wax poetically about it. I hope this ep means TPTB remember Hoshi's job and that we will see it more in the future. (I still wonder how Hoshi can decrypt the letter without reading its Vulcan contents. You'd think to her reading Vulcan would be as easy as reading Earth Standard by now.)

I also hope that now that Trip has been embarrassed to no end by yet ANOTHER false assumption about T'Pol, that he'll start cutting her some slack.


Really? I neither see it nor hear it.
Jules -- 9 Nov 2001, 13:14 GMT

Okay, maybe there's a little similarity around the eyes, particularly if both Trip and/or Bush do the squinty thing... but the nose? The nose is entirely different.

As for their respective accents, I don't hear any real similarity in their voices at all. And I say that as an ignorant non-American who has trouble distinguishing one US regional accent from another in any case. ;-)

Personally, I rather prefer it that way. I don't want to see real life people in my fictional characters. I'll grant you that the character is always going to pay a passing resemblance to the actor playing them :eek: but that's it. Anything more than that and you're pulling me out of the story. And I don't want to be pulled out of the story.

I'm thankful to find that I don't have that problem with Bakula - perhaps because I never watched enough "Quantum Leap" for it to be a problem, and perhaps because his character here seems different enough from that one. That being so, I don't need to go looking for parallels for actors I've never clapped eyes on previously just to recomplicate my life!


Why Archer is being written that way
Sherry -- 9 Nov 2001, 13:19 GMT

Hmmm...Maybe the writers are trying too hard to make Archer different from Kathryn Janeway--so hard that they're avoiding all the command qualities which she had, because they're (inaccurately) attributing her (alleged) lack of appeal to those.

I have an impression that Archer has always been a sort of wonder boy in Earth's Starfleet. He went into space flight in the path of his father, a pathmaking developer of spaceships. It may have been a charmed path in some ways, but it must also have brought a great pressure on him in others.

The scene in the pilot where he first met T'Pol and saw the Klingon suggested some kind of "special" standing--wearing his fatigues-like jumpsuit amid the dress uniforms of the admirals seemed unusual to me, if that's not too trivial an example. (I admit to being with costumes ;))

I have one awful suggestion to make--awful because of what it might to do to some of the other characters. But maybe there'll be some kind of catastrophe, and dealing with that and with what happens to his crew will force Archer to measure up to more of the traditional captain functions.

Diane, I have been saying EXACTLY the same thing myself
david g -- 9 Nov 2001, 14:54 GMT

He's such a ringer for Dubya that it's uncanny...he makes me imagine Dubya musta been a hottie when a frat boy.

david g

How are you feeling about Archer, Jules?
david g -- 9 Nov 2001, 14:56 GMT

Im curious if you like him. Try as I might--and I dont hate him anymore--Archer just seems odd to me. The Capatain shouldnt be the weak link.


Two Janeway qualities I love that Archer lacks
david g -- 9 Nov 2001, 14:58 GMT

Empathy and finesse (aplomb).


A few thoughts about T'Pol
Monday -- 9 Nov 2001, 15:08 GMT

I'm not sure if anyone has mentioned it yet but we have seen a lot of growth in the T'Pol character, although it has been very subtle. I wasn't sure if I liked her character at first,she seemed too arrogant,but now I see that she was just reacting like the other Vulcans. She actually seemed embarrassed by the behavior of of the Vulcan commander this week and last week she was worried her crew might embarrass her, and it turned out the monks(who are probably at the top of the Vulcan hierarchy) were the embarrassing ones.

Some people complain about the way the Vulcans are being portrayed in Enterprise but it seems realistic to me. The Vulcans have really just met the humans, it's very limited to a few vulcans and this is a case of first generation Vulcans dealing with second or third generation Humans , so they probably can't see the growth humans have made objectively. Like T'pol I think that as time passes and more Vulcans are exposed to us more there will be a subtle change of attitude.

And some people have complained about Archer's conduct at the dinner table in this episode but no one has mentioned the rudeness of that Vulcan captain. If I had invited someone to dinner, went with a special meal and tried to be polite and they said "oh I ate before I came over" they would have seen an emotional outburst that every one would be talking about for years and years and years (an angry Taurus in all her glory).

Sherry, I have two theories about Archer
Ruth -- 9 Nov 2001, 16:05 GMT

These theories are mostly based on what I'm reading about him, because I haven't yet watched the show in depth. I have seen enough of the show and the characters to know I like it and them. But my UPN reception is SO crappy that I can't always bring myself to watch it. It was a chore watching the last season of VOY (I moved last year) and it breaks my heart to have to try and watch a good season of BUFFY on this station.

But I digress. I like Archer, but then I was predisposed to do so because I like Scott Bakula. The flaws that people seem to see -- arrogance in particular -- might be the result of a) that's just the way they're writing him.

Theory b though is based in your catastrophe scenario. I'm getting a couple of different vibes from this show. One is a "gee, golly, isn't space exploration fun!" vibe. The other is a "humans are wary of aliens" vibe. I think that that kind of thinking, led by a captain like Archer is ripe for the Enterprise crew causing a catastrophic event that will perhaps even decimate a planet or an alien race.

And you're right, it could and should change Archer to have something like this happen. OTOH, given past experience with B and B, and their tendency to stubbornly hold on to preconceived notions of character, it may just be that they like Archer the way he's written.


Me, either.
Virginnie -- 9 Nov 2001, 16:37 GMT

I watched Bush speak for a few minutes last night and couldn't really see any resemblance, beyond the fact that they share the same general coloring and a certain common middle-America look.

Amazing. We're actually talking about pie.
Virginnie -- 9 Nov 2001, 16:41 GMT

I notice that no one has brought up the obvious gaff in having T'Pol eat pecan pie. If you've ever made one, you know that it's chock ful of corn syrup, pecans...and eggs. I wouldn't think that a strict vegetarian like T'Pol would eat eggs.

I did wonder about that
Sherry -- 9 Nov 2001, 17:00 GMT

What sort of vegetarian is T'Pol? Is she strict, or is she an ovo-lacto-vegetarian (in Earth terms)? I can't remember if that was indicated when she was confronted with chicken.

I don't see him as the weak link.
Jules -- 9 Nov 2001, 21:20 GMT

From where I'm viewing - which is up to and including "Unexpected" - that'd be Mayweather, about whom I really know no more now than I did on day one.

I have no real problems with Archer. If pushed to rank this crew, I'd stick him somewhere in the middle right now, as someone I quite like, without absolutely loving. He can be rash, opinionated, grumpy... but he loves his dog, is pally with his chief engineer, concedes enough of his prejudice against Vulcans to recruit one as his science officer, and can probably be taught more lessons as time goes on. I wouldn't want him to abandon his prejudices too easily, because if he could be swayed with a few easy words after a lifetime of building resentment against the Vulcans it would make him too weak minded and malleable. He's bent a little, allowed T'Pol to join his crew and it's an invitation of sorts for her to try to show him why he should change his mind. But he's going to make her work for that victory, and why shouldn't he?

He's flawed, but I like flawed characters and find them more interesting... and much more likely to sustain seven seasons worth of stories. (This, of course, presupposes that TPTB bother to do any character based stuff...) I don't find him a strong captain and a great leader, but that doesn't mean that he's not still the best choice available for the job at this time. His people do at least seem to like him, and he may well be a man of his time.

Earth is pulling itself out of the depression that we saw in "First Contact". It's conquered disease and poverty with the help of the Vulcans, since that fateful first warp flight of Cochrane's, and it sounds at the moment as if being held back from reaching for the stars may be the biggest adversity that it's had to rise above in recent times. Maybe there hasn't been any call for strong and compelling captains just recently. Maybe the reason that Archer's there is because he had the drive to see his father's vision reach fruition, because he's an explorer by inclination, because he's enough of a people person to recognise good people and gather them around him, rather than because he has charisma and the more obvious leadership skills.

Maybe becoming a captain worthy of note is something that he'll learn in the course of seven seasons. And then again, maybe he won't. Not everybody carves out the sort of legend for themselves that Kirk did... and it's actually fair to speculate that Archer won't, since he's never been referred to in such revered tones by any of those future captains of the 23rd and 24th centuries that we've already met!

He may, ultimately, be defined as much by the deeds of his crew as by his own. Which is fine by me, since my favourite characters to date are Trip and T'Pol. :-p


Again... just a TEEENY problem
Fliteman -- 9 Nov 2001, 23:45 GMT

I liked this one. T'Pol is really starting to form nicely to the character. I liked how uncomfortable Trip was in telling her he read the message.

I also liked how T'Pol talked Archer into assistance for his men. But the Vulcans are rude. Downright rude. That just seems... beneath them. I can see them being brutally HONEST, but not hurtful.

Now. The problem. They were on a comet - granted, a great big huge one... but there should be very little gravity, and they're bouncing around on it just like being back home... Didn't they see Armageddon???

Hmmm, I think retrocontinuity will make Archer an icon
david g -- 10 Nov 2001, 04:09 GMT

At least in terms o Trek history if not in fan love.

I for one am really indifferent to Archer...i dont think the fact, Jules, that we havent heard about him yet will prevent him from becoming the King of All Trek Media, because Bakula has widespread goodwill from the fanbase that Mulgrew and Janeway just didnt get--though they deserved to, IMO.

but i do relaly like TPol and Trip, too--and i do like Reed, Phlox, and Hoshi a great deal, too...those are the reasons i keep watching.

funny how the token black guy and the token Tough White Male are both also rans on this show, to get REALLY polemical.

david g

I wouldve been annoyed, too, by the rudeness of the Vulcan
david g -- 10 Nov 2001, 04:12 GMT

but Archer never gets me on his side, I must say.


Re: I wouldve been annoyed, too, by the rudeness of the Vulcan
Malcom -- 10 Nov 2001, 15:55 GMT

The Vulcan was rude, but it was no excuse for Archer's petulant rant. The captain is supposed to be more poised than that. There were better ways to deal with this situation. The obvious one being to hand him over to T'Pol for a tour of the ship instead of the meal.

Something to look forward to...
Joyce -- 10 Nov 2001, 16:41 GMT

The invasion of Enterprise by a pon-farr-crazed architect!

Oh, I'm sure Archer will get his namecheck eventually.
Jules -- 10 Nov 2001, 20:23 GMT

But even so, I don't think he'll ever come close to being the Starfleet legend that Kirk is/was. I'd be very surprised if anybody ever topped that, or if the writers ever tried to imply it.

But I think that each of the other Star Trek captains, while carving out lesser legends for themselves, will have their little place in history. For one simple reason... if they hadn't done something ground breaking and/or worthy of note, they wouldn't have been the subject of seven years worth of adventures! I'm sure there are lots of quietly competent captains, who are good at their job and adored by their crews, quietly going about their business... but they just never happened to be in the wrong/right place at the wrong/right time, so we never get to build legends around them. :-)

I don't really agree with you about Archer. But I don't think it's particularly because Mayweather is Token Black Guy that he's an also ran as a character. I just think that the poor guy has got himself saddled with the Harry Kim role, and that one's always pretty hard to either make your mark in, or get people to write interesting things for.

Hopefully at some point all that "boomer" stuff will come home to roost, and we'll get something interesting for the actor to make his mark on.


LOL, Flite!
Jules -- 10 Nov 2001, 20:27 GMT

Perhaps the last copy of Armageddon got trashed during World War III... along with all the other literary and celluloid treatise on the subject of first contacts with aliens, good and bad, thereby depriving Archer and co of all of those useful pointers on the subject that we've all been privileged enough to watch. ;-)


I never appreciated Harry as much until I had t endure Travis
david g -- 10 Nov 2001, 21:07 GMT

I dunno, Harry, even at his silliest, was appealing...Travis is so blandly, smugly POSITIVE. i always thought Harry's overearnestness sprang from his desire to please--whereas Travis strikes me as someone who is that way because he is hugely pleased with himSELF. in other words, he strikes me as being devoid of Harry's touching vulnerability.

But in light of comments you made in another post about regression, Tom, and Harry, Jules, i really agree with you. I hate what Braga did with Tom in particular, and what he did to the Harry-Tom friendship...though Im convinced by Jason's argument that he improved Harry's (and Neelix's) personae.

david g

I finally got to see the episode.
Virginnie -- 11 Nov 2001, 20:43 GMT

Although everything I have to say has already been said. I'm still going to say it, because that's just the kind of person I am.

--Trip and T'Pol are the heart and soul of this show. And most of it's brains, as well. I can't really tell if it's because they're being written well, or because the two actors are just so good at being what they're supposed to be, but I love 'em! Connor projects so much genuine decency and enthusiasm and good humor as Trip that it's almost palpable. And Jolene's use of the "impassive look" is becoming so calculated that it has started to take on an emotional meaning of its own. The scene in her quarters is fascinating to watch, as the established dynamic between these two--Trip being sincere and earnest, T'Pol being aloof and unimpressed--plays out and then, ever so slightly, shifts, as Trip's obvious pleasure at T'Pol's ultimate decision makes clear. These two characters alone make the show worth watching.

--I thought the dinner scene was excellent, involving a rather heated and unpleasant clash of cultures and expectations. The Vulcan's arrogance, Archer's irritation, Trip's unease, and T'Pol's watchfulness--all simmering together in a big ol' kettle of drama.

--The message to the school chilren was just charming. Who cares if it didn't have anything to do with the plot. It worked, and it was fun, and everyone did a great job...although my darling Trip was clearly the highlight. 8)

--If Reed gets any more professional, competent, or cool under pressure, I'm going to start a collection to buy him his own damn A plot. Why has this man not had a feature episode yet? And why haven't we seen him in the decon chamber?

--If I were the guy playing Mayweather, I'd be on the phone to my agent RIGHT NOW!

My only real disappointment with this episode is that this makes three in a row with no partial nudity. I'm ready for some more candid shots of those blue underoos.

If they are reconstituted protein eggs, does that still count?
Deb47 -- 12 Nov 2001, 03:48 GMT

Anyway... we didn't "see" her eat it... just share a room with it.


Perhaps she just wanted to smell it?


Breaking the Ice and Malcolm Reed
Vickie -- 12 Nov 2001, 15:04 GMT

I saw the replay of Breaking the Ice last night. I liked it even better the second time.

BTW, have we started a Reed fan club yet? If not, I'll sign myself up as a charter member. I like him more every time I see him. And I won't spoil it by looking Dominic Keating up on IMDB to find out how much too young he is. :-)


I'll join. :-)
Jules -- 12 Nov 2001, 16:08 GMT

And if it helps - and without cheating by looking at the imdb - I can tell you that I remember seeing Dominic Keating in things over here ten years ago... so he can't be too much of a babe in arms. ;-)


Me, too.
Virginnie -- 12 Nov 2001, 16:21 GMT

Reed's a great character, and it's about time he got his own feature episode. I also keep hoping that he'll turn out to be ST's first recurring gay character (unless they make Trip bisexual, which would suit me just fine, too), because a serious-minded gay man who loves guns and explosives would be a hoot and a half.

That begs the question...
Jules -- 12 Nov 2001, 18:24 GMT

... can reconstituted protein eggs go bad?

If not, I want some immediately!


Re: :rolleyes:
Deb47 -- 12 Nov 2001, 22:37 GMT

Hmmmm, can I assume you've had a close encounter with the "foul" kind of egg?



I wish we had see subtitles so we knew what...
Mindy -- 12 Nov 2001, 23:14 GMT

...the Vulcan Commander said to her.


The Top Ten Things the Vulcan Commander could have said to T'Pol in BTI... ;-)
Deb47 -- 13 Nov 2001, 01:38 GMT

NUMBER 10: I can't BELIEVE your Captain's table manners! He probably eats corn on the cob with his fingers!

NUMBER 9: The Nasal numbing gel you provided wore off 47 minutes ago!

NUMBER 8: You were SUPPOSED to lead them in circles until they got bored and went back home to watch B-5 reruns!

NUMBER 7: I TOLD you I was on the Galaxy zone diet and get all my meals delivered to the ship weekly!

NUMBER 6: If Commander Tucker offers to rub me down with decontamination gel one more time, I will use the tractor beam to tow him through the comet's tail!

NUMBER 5: For THIS I missed the High Command's transmission of the latest episode of WEST WING?

NUMBER 4: And just WHERE was the hot looking linguist with a Vulcan fetish you promised would be here for dinner?

NUMBER 3: You PROMISED pecan pie!

NUMBER 2: Do I look like 'Miss Freaking Lonelyhearts' to you? Stay or go, but MAKE up your mind! Its only logical!

And the NUMBER ONE thing that the Vulcan Commander probably said to T'Pol as he left the dining room...

"Thankyou for a lovely evening, lets do it again soon... ok ?"



LOL, Deb47! :D
Ruth -- 13 Nov 2001, 03:29 GMT

I particularly like number 6 (of course!), but they're all good!


Love them D47!
Roxanne -- 13 Nov 2001, 05:26 GMT

Glad to see you okay, Mindy.


:D Those are great Deb!
janey -- 13 Nov 2001, 05:39 GMT

5, 3, and 2 had me almost on the floor!

LOL, Deb
Terry -- 13 Nov 2001, 05:51 GMT

I fancy #3 best.

#2 rocks! :-) :-D NIM
Nina -- 13 Nov 2001, 13:21 GMT

Jules -- 13 Nov 2001, 22:15 GMT

Thank you Deb, for those images.

Although, actually, I prefer the hot looking engineer with the Vulcan fetish myself... :cool:


:-) Thanks, Deb!...And thanks, Roxanne! (nim)
Mindy -- 13 Nov 2001, 22:43 GMT

Re: Snort. :rolleyes:
Deb47 -- 14 Nov 2001, 02:21 GMT

Gee... you think?



Sign me up, too!
Sherry -- 14 Nov 2001, 02:59 GMT

I like him a lot! Hmmm...there are a lot of easy-on-the-eyes actors in this crew, aren't there?

Sherry ;)

Bu he's a babe nonetheless
david g -- 14 Nov 2001, 03:36 GMT

It's funny, but i think HE may be the breakout star.

I had heard rumors--which i personally hope are true--that he would be Trek's first openly gay character. i did notice that when looking at the Alien Sex Chicks in the premiere, he wasnt so invested in heterosexual passion. who knows.

I hope i havent punctured the hopes of Nebulites into Mr Keating.

david g, out for his own interests today!

I may have to start a Ginny fan club
david g -- 14 Nov 2001, 03:37 GMT

Ginny, you simply keep saying things that make me weep w/joy!

david g

Well, they do invade each other's personal space a lot.
Jules -- 14 Nov 2001, 14:27 GMT

Admittedly it's to bicker rather than smooch. :-)

I'm with Ginny, in that I kind of like it that we've got a (so far at least) platonic interaction between a male and female character that's so strong. The jury's definitely still out on whether it'll remain that way, but I'm enjoying Trip and T'Pol's little sparring matches too much to have any strong preferences one way or the other about whether they change in nature at some future point or not.

But... love 'em or hate 'em, Trip's definitely hung up about Vulcans.


Oh, me too!
Virginnie -- 14 Nov 2001, 15:38 GMT

But still a mighty fine list, Deb. Love the Miss Lonelyhearts entry.

Would you like for me to send you the start-up packet? 8)
Virginnie -- 14 Nov 2001, 15:49 GMT

There's nothing I like better than being adored...unless it's being waited on, hand and foot by a handsome man.

But I digress.

Thanks, David. I am going to be so disappointed, if we don't get a gay or bisexual character on this ST. Trip would be a very brave choice, and there's already been some groundwork laid, what with the Xryllian woman's observation about Trip liking to be found attractive and his vagueness about gender when telling T'Pol that he had been in three "relationships". Unfortunately, I don't think TPTB are brave enough to make him bisexual.

Reed is becoming the obvious choice as a gay character, particularly considering the fact that the thing he was most fascinated with in the pilot was not the butterfly-eating women, but the butterflies themselves. I wouldn't be unhappy with that choice, since Reed, as he is currently defined as a character, would certainly be an unconventional gay man. I like the idea that ST's first gay recurring character would turn convention on its head. 8)

Re: Me, too.
Pegn -- 14 Nov 2001, 16:59 GMT

Per Ginny: "...because a serious-minded gay man who loves guns and explosives would be a hoot and a half."

It wouldn't be just a hoot, it'd be great. I'd like to see TV portray a manly man as a gay character and have a realistic romance. I don't believe the guys in Will and Grace and Queer As Folk are really representative, but I could be wrong.

DS9 still had the best woman/woman kiss even though I don't qualify that as a gay thing, just a love/longing thing.

It would indeed.
Jules -- 14 Nov 2001, 18:38 GMT

And, you know, sooner or later they've got to reveal something else about Malcolm Reed other than the fact that he likes guns and enjoys seeing stuff blow up real good. So why not that?


Apart from the actor's incredible charm...
david g -- 14 Nov 2001, 22:34 GMT

the unconventionality alone would make Reed awesome as this choice...though for Americans his Britishness (and Europeanness) already makes him effete, sad to say.

david g

Strange, why doesn't anyone suggest...
Deb47 -- 14 Nov 2001, 22:52 GMT

"Hoshi" as the possible candidate? Eric has already noted her fascination with T'Pol earlier in the series.

Maybe because there's no way TPTB would give "Eric" THAT much pleasure????



But wouldnt it be more rad to have a gay man?
david g -- 14 Nov 2001, 23:50 GMT

Yes, there are shows like Will and Grace but lesbian characters are a safer choice, i think-- Trek has almost always opted for lesbian eros (TNG's The Host, Ds9's Dax stuff on Rejoined, Trill scmill)...i think a male character would be gutsier, but anyway, id just love it to be Reed cuz he's so darned likable.

david g

Yep, someone said...
Joyce -- 15 Nov 2001, 03:31 GMT

(sarcastically!) that Reed was the obvious choice to be the gay man - "He's got a British accent, so he's practically gay already."

Still, I am voting for Reed - they won't make it one of the Big Three.

I'm in!
Mindy -- 17 Nov 2001, 23:29 GMT

Oh, those men with their British accents! It all started with John Lennon! Then Sean Connery. Michael Caine...on and on....