The Coffee Nebula Board is for the discussion of Star Trek: Voyager and other sci-fi/cult shows. This is its Archive of episode discussions, top ten lists, fan fiction, and other miscellaneous musings.


The Andorian Incident

:tv: ENTERPRISE: "The Andorian Incident" Discussion Area...
SuzyQ -- 31 Oct 2001, 23:03 GMT

Director: Roxann Dawson Writers: Berman, Braga & Fred Dekker

The Enterprise crew pays a friendly visit to an ancient Vulcan spiritual sanctuary, despite T'Pol's concerns that her human colleagues will be an awkward and disruptive presence there. Upon landing, they discover that the monastery has been forcibly taken over by the Andorians, a paranoid and highly excitable race of aliens with a long history of conflict with the Vulcans. Archer soon discovers that the Enterprise crew has gotten in the middle of an interstellar Pandora's Box and now must find a way out.

Cool, the first episode I really enjoyed.
Terry -- 1 Nov 2001, 02:14 GMT

I've kind of been just passing time with ENTERPRISE so far. This is the first episode that really engaged my interest.

I think it was because Archer was good in this. IMO, Archer's been one of the weakest characters up to this point. Maybe that they should beat the crap out of him every week. :-)

T'Pol was also very good here. What did she know and when did she know it? I don't know but that makes things interesting. The facts would support her being completely in the dark until the last minute or knowing and trying to steer Enterprise away from the very beginning.

She really gave her character some interesting twists this week. She appears to have been put in the position of serving a human master. Whose activities sometimes conflict with those of the Vulcan authorities. And she's not dealing with that conflict as well as she'd like.

The episode was very good in terms of making Archer a more interesting character even before the surprise twist at the end. That put a whole new twist on the Vulcans, the Andorians, and the Federation's pre-history.

Okay, I did have a slight suspicion that the Vulcans were hiding something down in the catacombs but the magnitude of their prevariation surprised me. I certainly didn't expect the Andorian's suspicions to be 100% correct.

BTW, where the reliance on Hoshi to translate and the hesitation to use the transporter? Just like I thought before the show began: a translator gets in the way of storytelling and will be mostly ignored. And I thought the transporter would used -- I still anticipate the ole transporter accident episode soon.

A Frustrating But Important Episode
david g -- 1 Nov 2001, 02:33 GMT

Terry, I agree w/you--somehow this ep seemed more of a piece than the others so far.

I found frustrations and importance here.

FRUSTRATIONS: Maybe i missed it, but i feel we learned NOTHING about the Andorians that JOURNEY TO BABEL on TOS showed us. loud, surly, brutish, kind of silly...surely there was more to be learned about them?

actually, other than the plot's revelations, which are important for the series, this ep didnt actually *do* a great deal...i was consistently engaged but this ep isnt especially *interesting*...what happens other than Archer's hijinks and Trip's skulkings around?

IMPORTANCE: this ep says volumes about the Vulcan's mysterious power and secretiveness. i loved the twist at the end--i really didnt see that coming. it reminded me a lot of TOS's ERRAND OF MERCY, where seeming pacifism is revealed as monumental power...

then again, is this the way we want to see Vulcans? Trek has such a love-hate relationship with Vulcan.

i loved the Tpol/Archer scenes--very interesting. Im loving Tpol.

i also love Reed. i loved seeing him getting all butch in this ep.

overall, i was disappointed in the lack of Andorian depth--Jeffrey Combs cant even bring his usual spark to the role; no good lines at all--but i think this ep had value for the series. plus i love the retro Andorian blast.

david g

THE ANDORIAN INCIDENT had me singing the blues.
Jason -- 1 Nov 2001, 02:40 GMT

This was Voyager at its most disappointing. Voyager? Yes, Voyager. Increasingly, the Voyager episode formula is rearing its head on this "new" Trek, untampered, and no one has taken the time to repair the problems that were so very apparent by the end of the series.

Things were off to a bad start with the T'Pol/Phlox scene. It was unassuming enough: their talk about IDIC allowed Braga to prove once again that he studied for the quiz, but ultimately it had no substance. That's the problem with this episode. It was just... there. Everyone was present and accounted for, and all the scenes seemed to play like clock-work, with the characters not having to seem new or interesting so long as they conformed to their stereotype.

The thing that drove me crazy about Voyager in the last season particularly was that crew had the same conversations over and over again. How many times did Jeri Ryan have to act out the same cliches in throwaway scenes? What makes me worried with the new show is that the characters have settled in. If they can't be surprising after episode five or six... I'm worried.

The Andorians... where to begin? They were random thugs, no depth... they were just Surly Aliens of the Week. Jeffrey Combs gave a rare disappointing performance. He could have been playing a trigger happier Weyoun.

The end was a nice surprise and a good indication that the show is willing to take some risks... but for what? The question I'm wondering is if T'Pol's decision to give the Andorians her scans endangers her career with Vulcan High Command. Does anyone care? Possibly not.

I'm worried about this breed of over simplified story that's padded with filler character scenes that only seem redundant.

On the plus side, I really did enjoy the snuggling scene between T'Pol and Archer... it was an interesting conversation. Trip had a few good one-liners.

Anyway, this episode could only manage a feeling of neutrality. That's prboably not going to be good enough.


The Andorian Incident" Roxanne hits one out of the park! :D
Eric -- 1 Nov 2001, 04:06 GMT

Trust Roxanne (B'Elanna) Dawson to kick the dust off of the Enterprise machine like the great engineer she is! :D

SPOILERS for The Andorian Incident!











This one was the first homerun for Enterprise for me. I LOVE the Andorians, one of the founders of the Federation that we no very little about. And here we see how we meet them. A GREAT idea for the show. And boy do they look AWESOME now! I love the moving antennae and Jeffrey Combs was perfect in the part. But what do you expect from Weyoun?

The Vulcans seem to be down right evil in this series. I hope they start to explain this a little since we are such good friends in TOS and the TNG era. But what a great finish. Yes it was abrupt but i'm HOPING that this will be followed up bigtime.

But i'm glad we had the ending with Weyoun/Archer now we have seen the first seeds of friendship between us and the Big Blues.

I agree the FX were great but they have been great throughout this series.

There was a note of worry however :

What is up with Hoshi????? :eek:

Where did she go? What is with this 5 seconds of screentime????? I'm sick of the Trip Show!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Bring back Hoshi!

Did anybody notice we had zero difficulty talking to the Andorians? I KNEW B&B would not have the patience to stick with that storyline. They made it what? 4 episodes? :rolleyes:

I want another Hoshi story and i want it now!

Lets see i will give this one a 9/10


I was looking forward to the Andorians
Joyce -- 1 Nov 2001, 04:11 GMT

Problem is, these Andorians were NOTHING like the Andorians we saw in TOS. Loud, surly, and brutish? Go back and rewatch Journey To Babel - those Andorians were soft-spoken, sly, and Machiavellian. I could have seen the TOS Andorians fit in very well in the Borgia Vatican, but not these guys. Beating up the prisoners? I was hoping for something more along the lines of arsenic and the stiletto concealed in the sleeve. Oh well, at least they were blue.

The monastery was cool-looking, though. And the twitchy antennae.

I guess I should look on the bright side - at least there was a plot twist at the end.

Maybe they'll use the Andorians more, and work on getting them right.

I really hate it when you beat me to the punch, Jason.
Virginnie -- 1 Nov 2001, 05:05 GMT

Although I wasn't quite as disappointed in this one as you were, I was still let down a bit, because I expected so much more. Like Joyce, I was *really* disappointed in this incarnation of Andorians. What a group of violent, bourgeois thugs in bad Smurf make-up. They were nothing like the Andorians we saw in TOS. Like you, I was also disappointed in Jeffrey Coombs performance. Frankly, his Andorian would have benefitted from a little more of that wonderfully subtle, yet smarmy quality he had as Weyoun.

Some of the camera angles seemed to have no point, at all, except to annoy me. I did like the glamour shots of Trip, though. Boy, he just gets cuter and cuter and cuter every episode.

But I digress...

I'm starting to get a really bad feeling about the Vulcans. I liked the twist, and anticipated something unsavory was going to be revealed, but I never imagined treachery on that level. I also wondered about the consequences of T'Pol taking the human side against the Vulcans. I really hope there is some repercussion from that action down the road.

That said, what a bunch of wimps the male Vulcans were. I know they were monks and all, but sheesh. Whatever happened to all that vaunted Vulcan strength?

However, there were still things I liked. I liked the reprise of T'Pol, Vulcan Den Mother, during the protocol briefing scene. I liked the blanket scene, and the fact that T'Pol turns out to be covers hog, although I think the scene would have been even funnier and more interesting character-wise, if it had been Trip, instead of Archer. I did miss the always enjoyable Trip and T'Pol sniping--not much opportunity for that this ep.

I laughed in a couple of places--when Trip bows his head awkwardly (like he was at prayer meeting or something) during the Stone of Jakar scene, and when the Andorian asks T'Pol if she would like him to kill Archer for her. No seduction is ever really complete, without the man offering to kill something for the woman. 8)

Archer took a beating, and Trip caught a nasty blow to the head, and we got to see it in all it's techno-color glory. Not sure I like that trend. I did like the fact that Archer was using his brain, Trip his smart mouth, and Reed his beloved arsenal. I have to wonder, though, why he didn't just phaser the Andorians through the eye holes.

Oh, right--then nothing would have blowed up real good.

Love, love, love that T'Pol. She gets better with every episode. And did I mention what an absolute cutie-pie Trip is?

And finally--what is with this series' fascination with subterranean sets?

They're cheaper.
Janeway216 -- 1 Nov 2001, 07:35 GMT

Come on . . . it's a Trek cliche (or at least it used to be) that whenever they beamed down to a planet, they ended up in caves.

Incidentally, they haven't always used the same cave set over and over, swapping out series. TNG's caves were gray, DS9's were brown. All the rest have been grey since then. How I know this or why it is important, I do not know.

Useless cave trivia

Because Voyager inherited TNG's sound stages?
Jules -- 1 Nov 2001, 13:20 GMT

And presumably its cave sets too. And since Voyager's been torn down, it's a fair bet that Enterprise got the hand-me-downs from them.

But, since DS9 ran concurrently with TNG/Voyager, quite possibly it needed its own cave set...

I wouldn't mind if we wandered into "Devil in the Dark" territory one of these cave set away missions or other. I'd like to see the Horta again. But I guess that'd blow continuity right out of the water. And they probably don't have any bricklayers on the crew roster. ;-)


I have been advised on another board...
Virginnie -- 1 Nov 2001, 13:20 GMT

...that the clever, sneaky Andorian that I remembered from Journey to Babel was really a clever, sneaky Orion in Andorian disguise. Oops. Maybe Andorians really are a bunch of violent, bourgeois thugs, after all. **sigh**

Thumbs up! First hit for ENT for me! :)
Geordi -- 1 Nov 2001, 14:07 GMT

Since the premiere, ENT wasn't interesting to me. The previous episodes were boring, making me change the channel to something else to watch. Now "The Andorian Incident" caught me, and by the ending, I believe ENT has their first real hit of the series.

From what I read about Andorians from manuals, etc., they weren't a friendly race when humans first met them, and this episode proves that. I like first contacts this way. I'm not against peaceful first contacts, just that knowing the Andorians will become friends in the future and one of the Federation founders, it is great to see that it will not be easy for humans to make the Andorians friends. Archer took the first step into that direction in this episode.

And I like the Andorians here. They don't trust no one who are friends with the Vulcans, yet by ending, there is hope that Earth can be friends with them, for humans are not Vulcans as the Andorians found out here. Makes me wonder if Earth's first meeting with the Tallerites (Those pig-face people seen in TOS's "Journey to Babel") will also be a hard first-contact situation, for the Tellerites are also Federation founders.

Well... So much for Vulcans don't lie. This episode paints them in a different picture than they were in the other four Trek serieses. I certainly didn't expect the ending giving the Vulcans personalities that they don't lie and were telling the truth the santurary didn't have any high-tech equipment and that they were peaceful. Archer did the right thing handing the Andorians the information about the Vulcans' hidden base of operations. For the first time, I wonder how much trust has been misplaced in the Vulcans for Earth as well as Andor. It seems Vulcan have much to explain about their attidues, which should be follow-up in a future episode.

Archer here was a someone I like. He took the beatings and kept on ticking, and I like his interaction with T'Pol. They played off each other well in this episode. If they keep this kind of interaction in future episodes, I'll enjoy this pair. :) (I'm not talking romance here. That's impossible if Sarek and Amanda in TOS are the *first* Vulcan/human pairing.)

So overall, I really like this episode. I'll give it a 9 out 10, for it is truly engaging, and gave quite a surprise for fans who thought the Vulcans don't lie and could be trusted. :)

There are two Andorians in Journey to Babel
david g -- 1 Nov 2001, 14:25 GMT

One of them is, as Joyce put it, correcting me, Machiavellian and sly...that actor, incidentally the assassin from THE MAN WHO KNEW TOO MUCH (50s version), is terrific.

But there is another Andorian, the duplicitous one on the bridge, wo is exposed at the end as a traitor, who is much more like the Andorians of this ep...loud, surly, and brutish.

i was, as i said, disappointed to see so little development of the Andorians and such non-witty lines given them, but i have high hopes that they'll get better treatment later.

david g

Vickie -- 1 Nov 2001, 14:28 GMT

My mother called right in the middle of Enterprise last night. And I wasn't recording the show. The good news is that I sit right between two TV markets and can pick up stations from either one. Thus, I have 4 opportunities per week to catch the show: Wednesday, Thursday, Saturday and Sunday.

Anyway, I'm not going to read any comments or make any, since I missed about half of the show, until after I see the whole thing.


That does it.
Virginnie -- 1 Nov 2001, 15:07 GMT

I'm simply going to have to rewatch Journey to Babel--not a hardship, by any means 8)--to refresh my Andorian recollections.

Actually there is only *one* Andoriain in "JtB"
Geordi -- 1 Nov 2001, 15:44 GMT

The so-called traitor was an Orion dressed as an Andorian. He had a transmitter in his fake attenna, which transmit to the Orion ship that attacked the Enterprise.

Better rewatch "Journey to Babel" again, david. :)

Naw-teee Vulcans!
Pegn -- 1 Nov 2001, 16:25 GMT

I thought Vulcan's were an honorable race. Well, ha! I had a feeling that they really were hiding something, but it's still kind of surprising. Very impressive hidden surveillance cavern.

Okay, what *IS* it with this show and caves/caverns?

Why does T'Pol look like she's half asleep when she's talking? She could be an interesting character but they're trying too hard with her to the point they've made her one dimensional. And like Jeri Ryan, I'm waiting for her to topple forward.

Andorian made me like ENTERPRISE
Diane -- 1 Nov 2001, 17:11 GMT

This was the first episode that I have enjoyed. Maybe it is because T'Pol had a personality, maybe it is because it is the first time I saw Archer act like a Captain, maybe it was the antennae on the Andorians, maybe it was because Roxann directed, and maybe it was becuase someone else besides B&B contributed to the story line and wrote the teleplay.

My only concern is what are TPTB doing with the Vulcans? I thought they were the honorable ones, not the sneeky ones hiding an entire facility beneath a religious retreat house. Will have to wait and see. I also wonder if T'Pol knew about this facility or was she surprised like the rest of us. Hope this arc is followed up on.


Re: :tv: "The Andorian Incident"...I LOVED it!
Mindy -- 1 Nov 2001, 17:27 GMT

I loved it because it left me with questions about the Vulcans and about what exactly did T'Pol know? I don't think she knew about the "Pentagon" underneath the monastery, but Terry pointed out to me that maybe she did...I interpreted her final reaction as embarrassment, guilt, anger at her own people...she's been lording it over the humans (as have all the Vulcans), and she (and they) got caught with he (their) pants down...

I thought the acting was right on target, the sets were cool...okay, basically, it worked for me!!!!

(Gushing) Mindy

Okay, one or two small nitpicks...
Mindy -- 1 Nov 2001, 17:33 GMT

You got me, Terry...I think it would have worked better if the monks didn't speak English (after all, if they have been secluded in their monastery, where would they have learned English?...of course, the fact that they do speak English would indicate that they have been scanning the outside world) and we had seen subtitles when T'Pol spoke to them, and that T'Pol had to translate for them...but in terms of moving the plot forward, it would have eaten up time and somewhat have slowed the story.

Also, how come the Andorians understood English? This was first contact between Terrans and Andorians...

Oh, as for the monks...what did they know about the scanning complex? Did they all know? Or only the one who went with our heroes? Was he a plant?

Again, small questions, but not enough to stop me from loving the episode.


You *liked* the Andorians, Geordi?
Virginnie -- 1 Nov 2001, 17:41 GMT

I liked the antennae, mainly because the movement seemed random and therefore alien but, I thought the Andorians were written in a very limited and non-compelling fashion in this ep. That said, I have no objection to bringing Jeff Coombs back as an Andorian and giving him another shot at doing what he usually does so well with ST characters--and which he didn't do well with the Andorian leader--and that is creating a distinctively alien personality. Of course, even the best actor is often limited by his material.

I actually found the Andorian who came on to T'Pol more interesting than the leader. (Did he remind anyone else of a cross between Kiefer Sutherland and Malcom McDowell?) His attention to T'Pol was obviously sexual and intended to unnerve her (fat chance), but it also seemed to have an element of real (if prurient) curiosity to it. I didn't much like Archer going all manly and telling the Andorian to leave her alone (like she couldn't take this guy two out of three falls, anyway), but it did make me laugh when the Andorian casually offered to kill him for her.

Best part of the whole episode was seeing Reed in action (love the accent and the flinty look around the eyes) and the strength of the connection between Trip and Archer. Frankly, if I didn't know Braga and Berman any better, I'd say Trip was just a little sweet on his captain. ;-)

Good Halloween episode - caves full of cobwebs, ancient relics and mummified corpses.
D -- 1 Nov 2001, 18:58 GMT

(I wrote my comments but couldn't post until now so some of this has been mentioned by others)

Unusual first contact. Perhaps this encounter led to the establishment of good relations between Andoria and Earth. And presumably the start of "normalizing" relations with Vulcan. Aren't the Andorians one of the founding members of the Federation?

T'Pol clearly wasn't expecting what they found and didn't like it any more than Archer, though it wasn't clear whether her disapproval was more that the listening post violated the treaty or the sanctity of the monastery. Interesting that she sided with Archer and not the monks on how to deal with their being hostages.

I liked the conversation between Reed and Hoshi about possible procedures for away teams. About time someone started to think about it, and these two are the logical ones - Hoshi because she's still skittish and Reed because its part of his job.


Do the monks have a Universal Translator? I wouldn't think so given their supposedly technology free existence. But if not how does everyone communicate? I can see the Andorians sending operatives who speak Vulcan, but that wouldn't explain how they talked to Archer & Tucker (would have been different of it had been Hoshi, since she does speak Vulcan).

What gives with the different races smelling funny to others? First the Klingons in "Prophesy", now humans as far as Vulcans are concerned. And wouldn't T'Pol's using an inhibitor make it worse for her than just getting acclimated? Maybe she's just too fastidious; her insisting on eating finger food with a knife and fork would indicate she is. I guess this is going to be a running theme, and she'll eventually give up and eat like everyone else.

Why is Hoshi operating the transporter and not an engineer?

I thought we'd already had the first transporter accident?
Jules -- 1 Nov 2001, 19:38 GMT

Ol' leaf boy got at least marginally scrambled in "Strange New World".

Nothing to say there won't be another mishap along in due course though. :-D


Speaking of cobwebs...
Joyce -- 1 Nov 2001, 19:43 GMT

Does every planet in the galaxy have spiders?

Ok, one real and one fake Andorian, Geordi--two cool costumes! :) NIM
david g -- 1 Nov 2001, 20:27 GMT

Ginny, JtB is one of my favorite TOS, so watch unashamedly! :) NIM
david g -- 1 Nov 2001, 20:28 GMT

I finally saw what Jason pointed out and now you, Ginny
david g -- 1 Nov 2001, 20:30 GMT

The homoerotic connection btwn Archer and Trip--remember the hurt/comfort scene they had last night?

Im still keeping my fingers crossed that Reed is Trek's first gay character, for real.


I agree, too many of those fake, fake caves. NIM
david g -- 1 Nov 2001, 20:31 GMT

Re: I have been advised on another board...
Sherry -- 1 Nov 2001, 23:16 GMT

In fairness to the Andorians, those in "Journey to Babel" were an ambassador and members of his staff. The Orion ringer was functioning as a minor staffer. Those here were a--what shall I say--more ordinary raiding party, so they probably didn't have the subtleties that the diplomatic types did.

You have more strength than I have! (no spoilers)
Sherry -- 1 Nov 2001, 23:36 GMT

I only saw about half of it. (I came in about a quarter of the way through, and trick-or-treaters came in about fifteen minutes before the end.) So I missed a lot of the most important parts, like...ohh, the resolution ;-)

I need to watch the rebroadcast Saturday night. So what am I doing in the meantime? Reading all the Nebula comments!

Sherry, the impatient

*I laughed* when T'Pol didn't answer.
Terry -- 1 Nov 2001, 23:37 GMT

"Shall I kill him for you?"

*No comment*

Re: I was looking forward to the Andorians
Trippin' -- 2 Nov 2001, 00:02 GMT

Problem is, these Andorians were NOTHING like the Andorians we saw in TOS. Loud, surly, and brutish? Go back and rewatch Journey To Babel - those Andorians were soft-spoken, sly, and Machiavellian.

According to the Star Trek Encyclopedia the Andorians are "Humanoids that describe themselves as being a violent race ... ." I would say they were living up to their reputations!

The strength thing has always puzzled me.
Shadda -- 2 Nov 2001, 00:03 GMT

The premise has been set forth that Vulcan and the Klingon home world have a stronger gravity pull, thus the Vulcans and the Klingons are stronger then humans. That doesn't completely wash. If indeed they are stronger because of gravity, then all gravity being equal on a starship, they would not be all that much stronger then the rest of the people on said starship. I can see them having more muscle mass and probably being a little stronger, but not that much.

If a person is deadlifting 250lbs 100 times a day, then suddenly starts deadlifting 150lbs 100 times a day, they will get weaker. The reverse being true also, of course.

This has always caused me to go hummm, and I'm willling to listen to any theory out there. I'm sure I've missed something along the way that explains why the above isn't the case.

Just curious.


Since Vulcans don't have any larger muscles than humans,
Terry -- 2 Nov 2001, 00:31 GMT

I'd conjecture that a Vulcan's muscles must be more efficient than a human's. Still, you're right, unless Vulcans on Earth work out regularly, they'd still use muscle mass. They'd end up looking like 98-pound weaklings but be roughly as strong as a normal human.

Maybe they sneak in a bunch of isometrics during their "meditation" sessions. :-)

Or two words: Thigh-Master!

Guess it's my turn.
D'Alaire -- 2 Nov 2001, 00:48 GMT

I liked it--I'll say that first. But I'm still having "ah well" syndrom with the characters and with how the eps resolve themselves, if you can call it that.

--Not that I didn't like the "trick" ending. T'Pol's "reaction" was interesting, and I'm glad they did it that way. I'm gratified that T'Pol is as good a character as she's turning out to be. (Her hair's better, too, though I still despise her outfit. Yak.)

But honestly, I was starting to get seriously antsy by 8:40. It felt longer than it was. The Andorians were neat looking but didn't interest me after the first interrogation; the Vulcans bored me to tears. I know it's a hundred years earlier, yadda, yadda. But they really don't catch me, they're deifnitely not intriguing. Certainly not endearing in their curious way, especially here.

I'm also having problem with the Archer/Trip/T'Pol concentration. It worked on TOS, but...maybe I'm really missing ensemble eps. I was easily spoiled by those, and complained just as bitterly when I missed them on Voyager. I'd just like to see the other characters play bigger parts (though Phlox once again gets some good time). I can't even remember the name of the guy who's flying the ship. I think Hoshi is getting jipped. I feel I don't know them but on a wallpaper level, and that does nothing to endear me.

That said, it was indeed a lovely too look at episode, with its gorgeous scenic shots, spooky chambers, great FX. RD (of course) did well, especially with those smooth moving shots during the beginning. I've always been a sucker for the motion-cam and long shots. :)

I guess that's all, even if I feel like I'm complained more than I've complimented. I generally enjoy the eps, but just can't get into it like I'd enjoyed Voyager and its characters, don't sense anywhere near the amount of depth--even when it wasn't being shown. As much as I nitted on VOY, I still really cared about what happened to those people. I'm still not sure about that with ENT...unless it's Hoshi or Porthos. ;)

If Vulcans were born and raise on Earth that is...
Geordi -- 2 Nov 2001, 00:59 GMT

then they would be equal in strength as humans.

If the world one is born and raise has more gravity (say 1.5 G) than Earth's (which is 1 G), the person would grow up to have stronger muscles and bone than a person born and raise on Earth.

If the gravity was less, then the person would grow up to be weaker than a person on Earth.

Being a RL space ethusiaist, I learned that a person born on the Moon (aka Luna) or Mars wouldn't able to walk nevertheless live a normal life on Earth, for the gravity on the Moon and Mars is less than Earth's. The person would grow-up with a weaker body due to less muscle strength. I also learned that a person physically would look different as well, for a person growing up on the Moon could become *taller* than a Earth person due to less gravity preventing bone from expanding in length.

Since obviously all the actors playing aliens are born on good ol'Terra, I can ignore that they physically look to have the same size muscles, etc. as humans. I just take their word that Vulcan have a stronger gravity than Earth's thus Vulcans are stronger than Terrans.

Thinking about it, Vulcans on ENT sure are more pasified than the others. I agree with whomever said it that it is odd that Spock was the only Vulcan in all of Trekdom to use the handy Vulcan nerve-pinch. Why can't T'Pol or those Vulcan monks in "The Andorian Incident" use it on that Andorian Archer was wrestling? :confused:

So, remind me again why we like Vulcans so much?
Deb47 -- 2 Nov 2001, 01:06 GMT

Lets see...

They "held back" development of the warp 5 ship, delaying humanity's entrance upon the galaxy's stage...

They supposedly are untrustworthy partners in peacetreaties...

They don't like the way we smell...

This started out "interesting" and just failed to deliver on too many points.

The Vulcan-Human dynamic is one of them.

The fact that after 9 weeks in space, after Trip went psycho on T'Pol's behind in SNW's... they STILL haven't created any landing party protocols.

The fact that despite knowing that the Captain was transported safely in the premeire... Malcolm didn't just beam the hostages home.

The fact that if he really "was" concerned for their safety, he didn't just then turn the transporter into a weapon and beam the Andorians off the surface. Heck, be a lot easier to pick out their biosigns, than to figure out which of the Vulcans was T'Pol.

The fact that... as has been mentioned before, Malcolm didn't just shoot the Andorians from the safety of the mask, rather than blowing it up first.


Although it was "nice" to see the manly Captain take a licking and keep on ticking... it really ticked me off to hear him describe T'Pol as "someone assigned to the ship by the Vulcan High Command.


Excussssseeeee me?

Didn't he beg this woman to stay on board after her mission was over "8 weeks ago"?

After 7 years I "still" thrill to the woman who growled...

"You are speaking to a member of MY crew! I EXPECT you to give him the same respect and courtesy you would expect me to give a member of YOUR crew!"

Not only doesn't he "stand up for her"... he then turns around and questions her loyalty.

I must say, I loved it when she pointed out she's "never" disobeyed his orders... heck even when she disagreed with them and was in charge because he was disabled... even then she followed them.

What's it going to take with him? Does she have to sacrifice her first born or something?

I didn't mind the surly Andorians. Heck, its been so long since I saw JtB that they are a smurfy blur... What I did mind was how inept they appeared. They are "sure" something's going on... but all they are doing are room by room physical searches rather than following any significant scans. "Something" must have lead them there, unless it was just Weyoun's indigestion from too many blueberry pies.

The ability of the Vulcans to converse with the Humans wasn't a big deal to me. Enterprise would have tuned their translators to "do" Vulcan before beaming down. In fact, was "that" (translators?) what Trip and Archer were putting up their sleeves (mid right upper arm) They seemed to sneak something under a flap of their unifrom before going down to the planet.

What I "did" guffaw at, however, was all the lighted candles that were in the relic-quary... that place that "no-one's been in for "generations".

Dang! Those long burning candles are something, aren't they?

Speaking of Vulcans...

Why did the Vulcan monk pull a 96 pound weakling thing with the boys from Enterprise? He could have neck pinched Blueboy, and attempted to reason with Archer et al. If he really is a monk and just wicked naive about hand to hand, then where was the "real" vulcan security. They "must" have known the Andorians were about, and that a firefight was ongoing. Who spends that much time and expertise on spying and doesn't bother to lock the back door to their spynest?

Speaking of Vulcans...why did Archer feel the need to ridicule the way they "dealt" with the Andorians? So they rode into town and shot up the place... they never killed anyone and always left "before", what was so wrong with that approach? Archer upset that it didn't make the emotionally controlled Vulcans upset"?

As for T'Pol...although I'm growing to like her, I fear its more because I feel sorry for her. It's not just the "fact that her nasal numbing medicine was wearing off (geez, I know how "that" feels) it because she's constantly placed on the defensive by this Captain. Heck, I don't think she knew about the installation and I thought it was telling to see her caught in a moment of doubt when "the truth" of its existance was revealed.

Finally... yes, there is a "finally"... do you wonder if Archer ever wonders if it was a good idea to reveal this installation to the Andorians?

Sure... it made the Andorian consider the possibility that this human wasn't the lapdog of the Vulcans... and yet, maybe he just sold the Vulcans down the river. Maybe the Andorians have built a fleet to send against the imaginary Vulcan invasion... and the Vulcans are busily trying to discover how much time they really have before the hammer falls?

It had potential... but in the end the story just didn't satisfy me.


T'Pol used it in that cave episode.
Terry -- 2 Nov 2001, 01:38 GMT

Er, the cave ep where she shot Trip. Granted it was a wimpy pinch.

Who says Spock was the only Vulcan to use it? I remember Tuvok using it in yet another cave scene where Paris broke him out of jail. Must have been Resistance.

Tuvok used it in IN THE FLESH. nim
david g -- 2 Nov 2001, 14:26 GMT

D'Alaire, that was such a great post
david g -- 2 Nov 2001, 14:30 GMT

I feel EXACTLY the same way as you...and Im especially appreciative of your comments because you were never one to turn a blind eye to VOY's many faults (like i could be!).

david g

That was a moment that made me cringe, Deb
david g -- 2 Nov 2001, 14:34 GMT

I HATED it when Archer so disloyally said in regards to TPol's presence: "it wasnt my idea...she wasnt my first stuck with her" to that effect.

Really, really disheartening.

I think the main reason why i dont think i will fall in love with ENT is my lack of love for Archer. In the end, i loved every character on VOY down to Ayala...i suspect i will never love Archer or Travis, but who knows?

david g

Geordi -- 2 Nov 2001, 17:04 GMT

T'Pol and Tuvok did both use it, but compare to Spock, they're amatures. Tuvok only used it once, so I hope T'Pol use it more often. Just the thought, that a room full of Vulcans won't bother to help Archer against the Andorian just shows me that ENT is turning the Vulcans into a bunch of wimps.

Just because the transporter worked once doesn't mean you can rely on it every time.
Jules -- 2 Nov 2001, 19:57 GMT

After all, the next time they tried to beam someone up using it he had a close encounter with a bunch of leaves.

Maybe that made them back off from using it for organic matter again.


Wimpy VUlcans?
david g -- 2 Nov 2001, 22:49 GMT

Hmmm...or are they trying to make Vulcans the most mysterious race since The Breen?


Well... spoilers.
Deb47 -- 2 Nov 2001, 23:44 GMT

They "do" use the transporter in this ep, Jules. They finally decide to transport an armed team to the surface, rather than risk transporting the Cap etc off the surface.

As I said earlier, if they "fear it" so much, they could have used it on the enemy before using it on themselves.


Re: ... "who knows?"
Deb47 -- 2 Nov 2001, 23:52 GMT

I'm just hoping there's some great arc coming up that satisfies all my misgivings. A twist and a turn that allows me to fall for this crew and this idea. So far....


... A friend came up to me today at work and asked "well, what did you think of this week?" And all I could do is sigh and say... "I don't like what they keep doing to the Vulcans." He smiled (he's enjoyed the series much more than I so far.) and nodded. "I know what you mean. It was nice to see a little backstory on the distrust, but its getting a little too much."

My retort?

"Yeah, are these Vulcans or Romulans?"

He reminded me last week about how long it took to fall for TNG, and I keep reminding myself of that fact too.

I must say, when I surf the net more for "current events" than I do for Star Trek... "something's" out of whack!



Re: Okay... "Twice". ;-)
Deb47 -- 3 Nov 2001, 00:06 GMT

Remember what Terry said. Tuvok pinched the guard in the prison break at the end of "Resistance", and according to david did in a fake human in "In the Flesh" the same way.

Maybe the fact that he had his own version of "Betsy" distracted him from using the pinch more often? (Hmmm, did he "try" to use it on Seven in "Raven", or am I just having a senior moment?)

The "wimp" factor is noticable, but I credit that more with the simple way Archer put the Vulcan Monk down for the count than the lack of fight in the bulk of the Monks. At least they suggested they were against violence... asking them to pitch in would be like asking a bunch of Amish to do the same.

I don't think sticking to priniciples like "nonviolence", even at the risk of physical injury or death rates a derisive name like "wimp".

"My" problem with this ep is... Archer doesn't seem to realize that concept either, given his discussion with the head Monk and T'Pol earlier in the show.


Point taken
Geordi -- 3 Nov 2001, 01:20 GMT

I don't remember Tuvok using the pinch in "Resistence" but yes, he did *tried* using the pinch on Seven in "The Raven". Made me wonder whether it would have work since Seven is not fully human.

Regardless, let's just say Spock still holds the record for the number of 'pinches' made, unless T'Pol over ENT's seasons beats him. :D

Responding to what david said, I'm not sure whether Vulcans can be mysterious given what we know about them in past Trek serieses. I like that they are not completely honest, but they are not a mysterious race, since they are well-known to fans (well, fans who knew about the other Trek serieses that is. :)).

I think TPTB are trying to make the Vulcans in ENT a race that thinks they have to 'parent' other races, like the Vorlon were in B5, thus they go about spying on them in order to make sure the other races don't go about doing stupid stuff. Or as they tried to do with Earth, give advice on what to do, like telling *not* to go out exploring as mentioned in the premiere.

This approach feels to fit with what we do know about Vulcans in past serieses with the revelation in "The Andorian Incident". It makes the Vulcans the so-called 'Big Brother', who is slowly loosing control since humans are not so easy to control as they think they could. Over time, before the creation of the Federation, I think Vulcan will have to change their 'Big Brother' attitude to adapt to the changing galactic political situation as humans venture further out into the galaxy.

As for the Monks, yes, I agree that they said they don't harbor violence. But... (you knew that was coming right? ;)) I don't think they are truly monks as they claimed if they knew about their 'secret' installation underground, therefore, I don't think they were the pacified types as they claimed. But of course, all this came after the installation was revealed, so at the time Archer was fighting the Andorian, we still believe the Vulcans were really pacified monks. :)

How could you all forget Eric's favorite, "Warlord"?
Shadda -- 3 Nov 2001, 01:57 GMT

When Tom breaks Tuvok out of jail, he uses the "pinch" on one of the guards and Paris tells him he has to teach him how to do that some day.

Does that make 3? I don't recall Spock using it all that much.

My problem with the bits and pieces of this episode that I saw is that we are getting the impression that the Vulcans are very sneaky and untrustworthy. If we are finding that out now, early, then why didn't we know that later during TOS and beyond. They need to show things we know and how we found them out, not things we don't know and should have all these years later. Okay, that didn't exactly make sense and I can't for the life of me figure out how to say what I want to say. I'll just stop now. :rolleyes:


Not exactly
Geordi -- 3 Nov 2001, 02:38 GMT

It's nice to remember history, yes, but I don't think it would be nice to keep reminding people all about it, thus why I think in TOS and beyond, humans aren't reminding Vulcans contantly about the attitudes of early 22nd century Vulcans. Past is past and the main concern is the present.

Besides, this new angle on the Vulcans makes it interesting that not all things were 'easy as pie' between the founding members of the Federation before the Federation was born.

As for the number of nerve pinches, let me get out the Trek compendium to help me remember those TOS episodes... (the book doesn't say, it just helps me remember to place scenes with the episodes' names.)

"City of the Edge of Forever" (pinches the watch-repair man)

"Patterns of Force" (pinches the communications man)

"The Enemy Within" (said in book, this episode is the first to use the 'pinch')

"The Enterprise Incident" (Spock use pinch on Kirk and said it was the Vulcan death-grip)

"Assignment: Earth" (Spock actual pinchs Gary Seven, but it has no affect)

Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan (Okay, it's not a TOS episode, but it does show Spock pinching McCoy)

I don't know, maybe Tuvok and Spock are nearly even, but I still think Spock used more 'pinches' than Tuvok.

Oops, that only makes two.
Terry -- 3 Nov 2001, 03:24 GMT

I remembered Paris breaking Tuvok out of jail but it was in Warlord, not Resistance. Thanks, Shadda.

Besides, who would the later characters mention it to?
Jules -- 3 Nov 2001, 09:43 GMT

Spock? But he was a fellow crewmember and a friend of the captain. It would have been the height of rudeness to have brought up all that "sneaky Vulcan" stuff and wouldn't have promoted the crew spirit at all. In fact, it makes McCoy's jibes at his half-Vulcan colleague seem positively restrained in hindsight. :-)

The same would apply to Tuvok, except that by Voyager's time Vulcans aboard human ships were relatively commonplace and the events in question even further in the past, meaning that the Vulcans had had even longer to prove their goodwill.

And you certainly wouldn't bring it up if you were hanging around diplomats like Sarek. It could sour the whole negotiation. :rolleyes:

I guess I agree with Geordi. Just because we're learning things about the Vulcans now, in the "past", that we didn't know about them "later", doesn't mean those things never happened in TOS/TNG/DS9/Voyager continuity. It just means that they either weren't common knowledge, or that they've been worked through and forgotten about.

Actually, it reminds me a lot of the reasons why I like "Star Wars: The Phantom Menace" (well, the reasons that aren't Liam Neeson and Ewan McGregor). There's a certain academic fascination in trying to join up the dots and speculate on how you get from here to there. It strikes me that, quite as much as the actual episode plots, that's great material for a discussion board.

(Note to self: must watch "Journey to Babel" again before this episode turns up. :-))


Sure they could.
Jules -- 3 Nov 2001, 09:47 GMT

But that wouldn't be very Starfleet of them, would it? ;-) Whether they're suited to the part, or mentally prepared for it in terms of nobility and enlightenment, these guys are the 22nd century heroes.


JtB is a great episode, Jules
david g -- 3 Nov 2001, 13:58 GMT

Though you WILL have to tell me sometime why you like Phantom Menace...i can understand all the slash it generated, but as for the rest...shivers.


Tuvok used in other episodes -
D -- 3 Nov 2001, 23:56 GMT

"Displaced" when he and Janeway were in the habitat control center and, I think, in "Repression" to incapacitate the Maquis before he did the mind melds.

Actually, at least 5 succesful pinches.
Deb47 -- 4 Nov 2001, 21:42 GMT

Tuvok in season 1's "Cathexis"... he pinched Kes "off screen" when under control of the dark matter aliens. (Just rewatched it today.)

Tuvok in season 2's "Resistance" when he pinched the guard beating him/Torres up as Janeway's sabotage brought down the power grid.

Shadda reminded us of Tuvok's pinch in season 3's "Warlord" (whohoo, Be still Eric's and Shadda's beating heart!) as TOM tried to rescue him.

And didn't he also pinch Command Rand in season 3's "Flashback" so they could steal her clothes for Janeway?

I think Tuvok attempted to pinch Seven (Maybe in "Raven"?) in season 4, but failed.

As david pointed out, Tuvok pinched the faux human whom accosted him and Chakotay during "In The Flesh" from season 5.

And wasn't he accused of pinching the Bajoran ensign (again, off screen) in the movie theater in season 7's "Repression"?

Him... seems that pinch was in more evidence than we realize. Season 6 is the only one without a memorable use of the Vulcan tactic. Can anyone recall its use that year?


Malcolm Reed for Captain!
Jules -- 15 Nov 2001, 20:43 GMT

Actually, I don't have too big a problem with Archer's performance in the role. I kind of like the novelty of watching a captain who still has the training wheels on, provided that he does wise up and get his act together eventually. But, having just seen "The Andorian Incident", I've got to say that I thought that Reed looked pretty comfortable in that big chair.

Hoshi: "They went to visit some monks. Why would they scan for alien ships?"

Reed: "It should be standard procedure, that's why."


Hoshi: "You can't expect them to check in every ten minutes."

Reed: "Maybe that should be standard procedure, as well."

If Archer has any sense, eventually he'll entrust his armoury officer with the task of putting together the away team standard procedures manual. :-)

And of course he got to blow stuff up too. I notice that he even tends to hit what he's aiming at, which is considerably more impressive than your average Starfleet officer in a firefight.

I thought that the monastery was very nice looking, as background scenery goes. But I'm definitely beginning to get a cave fixation. Underground catacombs in this episode, the Terra Novans living underground in the one before it, hallucinogenic episodes in caves during a big ol' storm in "Strange New World"... did I perhaps miss a couple of cave scenes on that spaceship in "Unexpected"? I may start counting them instead of shuttlecraft. (Although, given the opportunity, I think I'd rather count sightings of the crew in their blue undergarments. :-p)

On the subject of language difficulties... the Vulcan monks shouldn't really have known English, if they were as secluded as they claimed. Although, if they actually operated the monitoring station in the tunnels rather than just providing a front for it, they might have known it just because it was more information to gather, even if not directly related to the task of spying on the Andorians. The Andorians shouldn't have known English though; they even had to ask what a human was. But maybe everybody concerned was speaking some kind of universal language? The Andorians and the Vulcans would have needed some common communications ground, as would the humans and the Vulcans. The other alternative is that, since the Andorians were known to the Vulcans, they might have contributed the basics of the language to the universal translator's database. Maybe it's syntactically easier than Klingon - which the Vulcans did give the humans the basics of, even if Hoshi still had to struggle to make sense of it. If it was a language that followed very consistent rules, the translator might not break down in coping with it.

It's certainly a thought. Not all alien languages are going to be equal in difficulty for a computer to cope with, and it allows them to use Hoshi's linguistic skills on a varying basis from week to week, according to the needs of the plot. And, of course, I doubt it'd have any problems with Vulcan after all these years, except with Vulcan cultural concepts like the kolinahr that they just plain don't go out of their way to explain to humans unless it's necessary.

For instance, I somehow doubt that "ponn far" is in the linguistics database yet. :-)

I confess that I'm not sure quite how involved the monks were with the underground complex. The youngish one who guided Trip down to find the old communicator definitely knew the complex was there; I'm not so sure that all of his fellow monks did. Probably there were two or three of them who were plants, to keep knowledge of it away from the Andorians, the other monks, and the universe in general, while ensuring that there was night and day liaison available for the people actually working there, who'd presumably need someone to cover for the arrival of their supply ships, and the coming and going of personnel, by making them look like visitors paying their respect to the monastery.

And T'Pol didn't know, I'm reasonably sure of that. She maintained her inscrutable look pretty well throughout, but she didn't look happy at the discovery, and she backed Archer up all the way when he gave the information to the Andorians and let them leave unharmed. She's in a difficult position; wanting to see her own people as superior, but only able to maintain her own moral aloofness by siding with her human crewmates when she does uncover things her own race have done that are indefensable. I applaud her courage in continuing to do the right thing, even when her nasal inhibitor is wearing off.

Although, she does get revenge in petty ways. Blanket hog! And then there was her lecture on protocol before she, Archer and Trip set out. If I'd been Archer and Trip, I'd probably have been a little miffed at being lectured to like I was a five year old; as I'm me, and I've seen the cavalier way that they saunter down to planets, I thought it was a real hoot. I can't help but think that T'Pol and Reed would see eye to eye on the importance of looking before you leap.

Great antennae on the Andorians.


Yeah, what she says, Reed for Captain (nim)
Malcom -- 15 Nov 2001, 22:56 GMT