Unexpected

Unexpected-ly fresh Trek
Terry -- 18 Oct 2001, 02:15 GMT

I liked this one. It was the first ep since the pilot that actually seemed different from past Trek.

No, not just the pregnancy. But the fact that the aliens weren't as humanoid as usual. And Trip having to adjust to their environment by undergoing pressure adjustment. And him finding the female engineer sensual despite her slick scaly appearance. i.e. Their standards of beauty didn't match with ours. (I do wish that they hadn't given her prominent breasts, though.)

I am skeptical about the usual Trek B.S. about the Starfleet engineer being able to repair alien tech better than the aliens. Especially since their technology was presented as more advanced than Earth's.

Archer was pretty foolish to inform the Klingons about their hitchhiker. It was obvious what the Klingon's reaction would be. He should have considered if helping Trip with his health problem was worth risking all of the aliens' lives.

One thing seemed extremely stupid to me. The Klingons choose holographic technology? I somehow doubt that Klingons would get excited by a toy like the holodeck. Duh, how about choosing to get the aliens' cloaking technology? I thought that Trip was going to be responsible for Klingons getting the cloaking device.

Or do Klingons already have cloaked ships at this point? I sort of recall that maybe they got the cloak from the Romulans but maybe I've got that backwards.

I like the way that the pregnancy was handled. Given the concept of a male pregnancy, it wasn't as stupid as I feared. I expected more jokes at Trip's expense. Actually, I was a bit sorry that they didn't have Trip say pregnant for a few eps and then give birth.

Well, this episode just solidified Trip's position as the best character on the show. I'm sure that Ginny was pleased by this one.

Who are you, and what have you done with Terry?
Virginnie -- 18 Oct 2001, 02:49 GMT

To co-opt a turn of phrase from Eric, Trip rules!!!!

Having gotten that out of my system, I find that most of what I wanted to say, Terry has already said...but I've never let that stop me from posting before. So, here goes.

I loved, loved, loved the whole bit about Trip going on the ship:

--the decompression experience--our little Trip is something of a panicker.

--the disorientation and the fact that Trip ignored the aliens' advice and that he had to deal with actual consequences from that decision.

--"Trip, take a nap." My favorite line of the ep, believe it or not, because I nearly said it out loud, myself.

--the very alien environment on the ship, but I agree with Terry. Trip shouldn't have known anything about that technology. He may be a heck of a shade-tree mechanic, but that ship seemed to have a lot of organic components, many of which would have had to have been based in an organic reality that Trip knew precisely zero about.

--the sensual nature of the interaction of Trip and the alien engineer, without it ever veering into the tawdry or gratuitous. That scene where she feeds him the water cubes, and her fingertips spark against his lips was very nicely done.

Other things I liked:

--the low key way the pregnancy was handled. I thought keeping it a secret from the crew, but having Trip suspect that T'Pol spilled the beans was a good dramatic choice. Of course, there were the expected references to weird appetite and loose clothes (although I thought Trip looked spiffy in his casual Friday duds) and spontaneous nipples, but the whole thing about the safety rail took me completely by surprise.

--the fact that Dr, Phlox didn't automatically have all the answers about Trip's condition and that he didn't conveniently come up with a med-technobabble solution.

--saving the best for last--lots o' male skin! Archer in the shower, which turned into a great pratfall, and Trip in his underwear. You know, I'm really getting fond of those blue undies.

Stupid Stuff

I hate the current incarnation of Klingons. Hate 'em. Blechh. And Archer was, as Terry noted, a complete idiot to tell them about the other alien ship. And about the pregancy. It was lucky that T'Pol was there to save the day with a little Vulcan "exagerration". Nice nod to TOS, that.

Trading holodeck tech--why would they want it? I like Terry's suggestion better about the stealth tech...although, on second thought, maybe Archer wasn't a *complete* idiot, after all.

Upshot--I expected a show that went for the easy laughs at Trip's expense, and I got a pretty dang good episode about first contact. Cool.

with you and Ginny, Terry!!!
Mindy -- 18 Oct 2001, 03:21 GMT

Great, fun episode with really cool and different first contact ideas. (TNG did a couple of really good FC stories, too...the one with the "duck blind" and the one where Riker is discovered to be an alien.)

I thought about the alien technology/Star Fleet engineer problem, too, but at least they showed that whatever Trip and the alien did to fix it didn't last...it broke down again, remember, after six days. Also, it was an opportunity to extend intragalactic good will by the Enterprise crew, so I was willing to buy it.

The alien chick was sexy and interesting. I loved the interaction between she and Tripp. I also liked that the aliens were basically innocent and didn't have some evil plan up their sleeve.

I don't know if Archer was stupid in his dealings with the Klingons. Remember, this is EXTREMELY early in Terran dealings with the Klingons, and I expect them to be a bit naieve in dealing with new species. Remember what Archer said at the end of the premiere..."let's hope that the last time anybody shoots at us." Or something like this. In other words, the Terrans are all eager beavers, ready to befriend the entire galaxy at this point. Okay, maybe they're a little bit too naieve (am I spelling that word right? That's one of the words that always gives me trouble) and eager and puppy-like, but that's the tone of the series so far, so I'm willing to accept it.

The Klingons got the cloaking technology from the Romulans druing the time period of TOS, Terry. I do think it's interesting that they're calling it "stealth technology" right now, instead of cloaking. Brings it closer to our time period, and separates it from the other Treks.

I did think they could have carried Tripp's pregnancy a few episodes, but as for him actually giving birth...I dunno...they "been there, done that" with Deanna Troi on TNG, and it didn't work then, so if that's how it would have turned out, I'm glad to have seen it end here. I did like seeing Tripp get all upset about the safety bars in Enginnering. That was cute and funny and rather "maternal" of him.

All in all a fun episode. Scott was sexy, Connor was hot, Jolene is really getting a handle on being a Vulcan, Hoshi was cute. Dr. Phlox was wonderfully avuncular...even Reed and Mayweather showed more personality!

Mindy

P.S.: Loved that shower scene!!!!

M

Pulling punches
Joyce H -- 18 Oct 2001, 03:35 GMT

Shades of Counselor Troi - does EVERYONE in Starfleet get pregnant in some form of immaculate conception? Do any of them have a child who lasts more than one episode? Not if you're a regular, I guess.

I found this disappointing. What could have been a significant dilemma was made a minor and very temporary inconvenience. Wasn't it handy that the embryo could be so easily transferred? What if it couldn't? THEN we might have had some hard questions. But Trek hasn't dealt with the hard questions since Tuvix. Guess they prefer not to make waves, a sad state of affairs considering where they came from.

What if the embryo could not be transferred and Trip hadn't wanted to carry the baby? What's the Starfleet position on abortion? (Sadly, you just KNOW they're not going to Boldly Go where the sitcom Maude went over twenty years ago.) What if he had been willing to carry it, but not to keep it? Or he'd wanted to keep it and the mother wanted it back? Whose baby is it?

Other disappointments. While Vulcan mating is a very seldom kind of thing, surely they've encountered enough species to not display the sort of judgemental carping T'Pol was dishing out. Was she channeling Dr. Laura or something?

I agree with the point about Starfleet engineers apparently being able to repair alien technology better than the people who designed and built it - that's just hokey.

I did like the shower; that was pretty good. And the alien ship was interesting, with a vastly different techology. The regulars are pleasant enough, I suppose.

Still watching, but starting to wonder why...

I'm begining to wonder that, myself, Joyce.
Virginnie -- 18 Oct 2001, 03:47 GMT

Enterprise just may not be your cuppa.

Me, I enjoyed it immensely, warts and all.

I don't have time for much more than a
Ruth -- 18 Oct 2001, 03:53 GMT

but, I also enjoyed the episode. Love that Trip. Love that shower scene.

Ruth

UNEXPECTED Pleasure
Eric -- 18 Oct 2001, 03:55 GMT

I was positive that i was going to hate this one but right from the beginning it worked it's butt of to get me to like it.

The shower scene was hilarious and while funny it showed that it can also be VERY dangerous at the time. He was slucky he didn't have his face in the water when it clumped like that! Cool effect BTW!

The aliens were a lot of fun and i liked the way they were filmed while Trip was suffering from the disorientation. Also they really worked haerd to make them look ALIEN. That hasn't been done on Star Trek for awile now. Very nice.

However, i think was was a little unrealistic that Trip could fix their engines so easily. Yes they broke down later but still, i wonder if he should have been even THAT successful.

Lets see....

It was great seeing the old Klingon Cruiser back! A LOT of fun!

However why would the Klingons want Holodeck technology?

I understand that humans are all very happy to be out in space but the lack of procautions seem....unrealistic.

Reed MUST have his own episode!!! NOW!

Ok, ok, Dr. Phlox is cool even if his makeup does suck!

Hoshi looked oh so yummy this week. *sigh*

I loved this episode!

Eric

unexpected - I actually like Trip now!
voyager fan -- 18 Oct 2001, 04:11 GMT

I thought this was a great episode.

So many things I liked! I can't believe my 180 on Trip, but he did seem enthusiastic and nice and I for one am SO GLAD that his pregnancy was not the result of him being a playboy but was instead the result of an alien game. He was so earnest and endearing when he was declaring he was an ambassador and a perfect gentleman.

You know, I really like the meals in teh Captain's mess hall. They really work in terms of getting more interaction going between the different crewmembers. Janeway was so rarely in the mess hall for a meal, so we never got to see her interacting so casually with crew.

Enterprise is not as sanitized as Voyager was, and I think that is a good thing, not to demean my beloved show, but I do like aliens and their environments seeming ALIEN, more like Farscape in a way.

I'm so pleasantly surprised to like this show so much!!!

Now I have a good sense of the Doctor's character, Trip, T'Pol, and Archer. The others haven't really made much of an impression on me in terms of personality or character. Hopefully they'll get more screen time soon...

Angela

Re: spelling right.
Deb47 -- 18 Oct 2001, 11:49 GMT

Think of the water "Evian"... and spell it backwards.

D47

Re: UNEXPECTED .
Deb47 -- 18 Oct 2001, 12:02 GMT

Cute episode.

My only nits revolve around the pregnancy. The pericardium is a very illogical place for the pregnancy to develop if the Captain and Doctor are going to act like its "okay" for Trip to carry it to "term". Had they expressed more concern over his health and the probable fatal (for him) outcome of said pregnancy, then it wouldn't have bothered me.

I also wondered, in passing, why he had to develop "more" nipples, given the evidence from the Premiere that he already has a pair.

Like Terry, I wondered why the Klingons would want the holotech instead of the stealth tech, but assumed it was because the Klingons probably already have their version of the cloaking device on board.

And like several people above, I wondered why this guy on his planet's first "real" deepspace ship could fix the alien's tech when they couldn't. Again, I suppose we should just say "fresh eyes, fresh ideas?"

Other than that, cute show.

So.... when are people going to complain about Trip exhibiting the cliched responses of pregnancy, a'la the brouhaha over B'Elanna's fainting?

I guess, we now know why they had to develop the sonic shower?

D47

I think my reaction...
D'Alaire -- 18 Oct 2001, 13:30 GMT

...is between your and Joyce's. LOL! Yeah, sonic showers indeed.

I don't have too much time to comment, except to say that I do like Trip, even if he and many others are still emotionally uninvolving to me (not really a good thing), I did think Archer was a little stupid, giving away the alien's location to the Klingons (boy, humans are going to learn big time one of these eps), Porthos was cute, and Hoshi's tiny spots were good.

I guess I'm still in that nasty little habit of waiting for an emotional payoff. I kept looking at the clock and seeing how late it was getting, and knew there wouldn't be one. I still wanted one in the crew. It was comedy, sure, but...well, you know me.

That said, I did think the AOTW were cool--and I think I did get a bit of a payoff with "mommy" AOTW's reaction to seeing her child. That was very nice.

At the same time, Joyce's questions/concerns are ones I share.

And, Deb... So.... when are people going to complain about Trip exhibiting the cliched responses of pregnancy, a'la the brouhaha over B'Elanna's fainting?

Bwahahaaaa! You go, girl!

I like Phlox more and more. Oh, he's eeeevil.

I guess you can say I enjoyed it somewhat, but I felt the setup ran too long and I had a lot of ho-hum's coming out of it, too.

Gotta go.

Terry and Ginny said it for me
Vickie -- 18 Oct 2001, 13:46 GMT

I had to stop and post after reading just Terry's and Ginny's comments because they have pretty well captured my thoughts on this episode.

I loved loved loved the first half of this episode. We got exactly the kind of episode I had hoped Enterprise would be giving us...and then some. I say "and then some" because I figured a Captain Archer shower scene was just too much to ever even hope for.

I may have to take back some of the stuff I've thought about Braga. Maybe the guy is a pig, but he is clearly an equal opportunity pig. I mean, how can I complain when we get Archer in the shower and Trip in his underwear?

I did think the episode lost a bit of steam during the last half. It had its moments, but didn't manage to sustain the non-stop delight that the first half brought me. I did think they handled the whole male pregnancy thing pretty well, though.

I was thinking about the Klingons this morning on my way to work. Like Ginny, I hate the current incarnation of the Klingons. "Blechh" is right. Those slimy, sleazy, sneakey TOS Klingons were much better villains and, unlike the current ones, their behavior actually made sense.

Anyway, I thought this episode was great. A few more of these and I will be hooked for good.

Vickie

Tripp gets raped and nobody gets upset!!!
Diane -- 18 Oct 2001, 14:13 GMT

This episode could have been so much more, but Braga decides to make light of the idea of "date rape" and the resulting male pregnacy. Am I the only one who is bothered by the message of this episode?

If I recall, there was quite a lot of discussion when Seven thought she had her nanaprobes extracted. That was a good episode with lots of discussion in the script, even though "rape" wasn't mentioned. I also recall some heated discussion on this board.

BTW, like Joyce and D'A, I still haven't warmed up to these characters, except for Doc and Porthos. Then again, I watched a few TNG episodes on TNN, and I remembered why I stopped watching Trek for a year--same complaint. So, maybe after some re-tooling, I will warm up to Enterprise.

Di

Vickie, I agree, Braga is showing himself to be an Equal Opportunity Pig
Diane -- 18 Oct 2001, 14:19 GMT

That opening scene was nice. Maybe Ryan is getting to him, or maybe TPTB finally realized that Trek has a huge female following. Either way, this is one thing I do like about Enterprise.

Di

Nobody got upset, because Trip didn't get raped, Diane.
Virginnie -- 18 Oct 2001, 15:01 GMT

Rape requires an intent to penetrate. This was purely an accidental impregnation, and the result of a contact that (1) wouldn't constitute penetration under traditional criminal law definitions and (2) wasn't even, as far as either party involved was aware, a breach of bodily integrity.

And it's completely non-analagous to Seven's situation--which I think was really more assualt and theft than rape, anyway--because there was an obvious intent in that situation...an intent to invade her physical person and steal her nanoprobes.

OK, it's official. I bow out of discussing ENT.
Nina -- 18 Oct 2001, 16:00 GMT

I'll no doubt watch it; it's Trek. But I can't begin to care enough to put my reactions out there, and then explain or defend them.

Another TNG, which affected me the same way throughout its run. I made sure I saw the episodes once. So I'll lurk around on the ENT threads, and participate in the Voyager retrospectives and the OT's.

Ahhh. A good decision. Yes.

P.S.: Alixandra watched it with me...she laughed out loud!!!!
Mindy -- 18 Oct 2001, 16:10 GMT

Hmmm...will my closet Trekker at last reveal herself?

Mindy

Thanks, Deb!!! Cool trick! (nim)
Mindy -- 18 Oct 2001, 16:11 GMT

Are you angling for someone to talk you into participating, Nina?
Virginnie -- 18 Oct 2001, 16:14 GMT

Because, otherwise, you wouldn't need to make an announcement. You could just stop posting.

Angela, (and Terry) a bunch of us here are FARSCAPE fans...
Mindy -- 18 Oct 2001, 16:16 GMT

...and we have a mailing group in which we discuss it...do you want to join? Terry, invite her!

Mindy

The way the aliens were set up and filmed was totally cool...
Mindy -- 18 Oct 2001, 16:18 GMT

...and totally unexpected for ST...great that they are twisting the mythos that way, too! I love that Tripp had to go through the decontam process, and I also liked that he panicked...wouldn't you, if some weird gas in an enclosed space started coming in and it hurt to breathe?

Hmmm...wonder if B&B are watching FARSCAPE and "borrowing?" Why not? And I hope so!

Mindy

WoooHoo! Somebody else caught the Farscape reference....
Eric -- 18 Oct 2001, 16:24 GMT

As soon as i saw the very organic looking sets i was thinking Moya/Talyn also! They also "borrowed" Scape's drunken Cam for that scene!

Eric

Y'know, I thought about that pericardium thing, too, Deb...
Mindy -- 18 Oct 2001, 16:26 GMT

...it would certainly waaaaay interfere with his heart's ability to pump and his lungs to expand! I guess they didn't want to do the standard "Earth" thing of "stomach gets big" a la that horrible movie with Schwarzenegger...and it also made it more alien.

As for the nipples...just to add more "extraterrestrial" to it, I guess.

As for the Klingons wanting the holodeck...I thought about it this morning...no one ever said that Klingons don't need R&R, or that they don't play games. Remember Worf and K'ahlar?

As for the cliched response, I don't think they're cliched...well, let me rephrase that...if they are cliched, it's because they are the usual responses...let's face it, women's hormones do get wacky and can effect us in myriad ways, not the least of which is via our emotions. But as I said, I thought it was cool that Tripp showed concern about the safety of the kid in that Engineering scene!

Mindy

I agree, i didn't see any rape....
Eric -- 18 Oct 2001, 16:28 GMT

Trip and the alien girl weer having a good time!

And she seemed very upset later that it happened. This episode came nowhere near Retrospect, which can only be a good thing, IMHO.

Eric

Please don't "get quiet," Nina.
Mindy -- 18 Oct 2001, 16:29 GMT

Your posts are always so thoughtful and fun!

Mindy

Re: Pulling punches
Pegn -- 18 Oct 2001, 16:40 GMT

I'm with you, Joyce. I'm really trying to give this show a chance since it took me Season I to start liking TNG and Voyager. I just didn't want to post anything here until I'd seen a few episodes.

I don't like T'Pol at all. She's beyond Vulcan and into monotone and her "carping" at Trip didn't sit well with me either.

I do like Archer though. I think his character will grow on me.

I didn't care for the pregnancy thing (though I don't think Trip was "raped" since I don't think the alien girl considered it sex, just a way of "connecting"). I have a low "ick" threshold so the nipples on the wrist just grossed me out.

What if B'Elanna returned pregnant, or even Kes?
diane -- 18 Oct 2001, 16:56 GMT

The alien BOTW was aware of her actions, that they were having "sex," Tripp wasn't.

This probably is the only time Tripp will be called innocent. He thought they were playing a game, not having relations, totally unaware of "what" was happening to him.

Yes, she may have been upset, but she knew what she was doing and she knew what the consequences COULD be.

Like I asked in the subject line, what if B'Elanna or Kes had gone to the alien ship and came back pregnant, not know knowing how it happened. All they had done was enjoy the company of an alien male who was showing off his culture, then in a somewhat romantic way, says let's play a game?

Di

I disagree. I don't think Ah-Linn (sp?) knew there would be consequences.
Virginnie -- 18 Oct 2001, 17:20 GMT

She even says as much to Trip later. And in her culture, it may have been perfectly acceptable to offer the "game" to visitors, much as Eskimo men once offered their wives as a gesture of hospitality to guests.

There may have been a significant communication problem, and there was definitely an unfortunate "accident", but there was no rape. And why the hell would it make a difference, if it was B'Elanna or Kes who came back pregnant because of an unforseeable accident of physical contact? Because we should automatically think of women as victims? For shame, Diane.

Well we don't have that much info...
Eric -- 18 Oct 2001, 17:43 GMT

But it seemed from what Phlox was saying that the males of the lizard race were pretty much hosts (does that even make them male?) meant to carry around the offspring.

Ah-Linn (thanks for the name Ginny!) had NO IDEA that Trip could get pregenent (actualy he was a host of a alien organism!! ) and really did seem remorseful.

I also think my reaction would have been the same if it was B'Elanna or Kes or even Hoshi who had the same experience. IF and let me say that again IF it was played the same light hearted way.

Eric

Um... I've got issues...
Fliteman -- 18 Oct 2001, 17:48 GMT

First, let me start with the last: YAATE. It got wrapped up fairly quickly at the end... I'm not sure what I would've done different, but... I was kind of hoping Trip's little problem would go on for a couple of more episodes.

The Klingons... I would've made their ship look recognizable, but... less sophisticated. The Enterprise looks like the BEGINNINGS of what we know is to come; The Klingon ship was... well, pretty modern. Maybe the just don't like change. I dunno... The way Archer they played "Lets Make a Deal" with them almost made them look like Ferengi. I would think the Klingon response would be 'Let's kill everyone, and take what they got.'

That being said... I DID like the show. The interaction between characters is getting better, but it's still new. T'Pol is getting to be part of the crew, and I thought her "exaggerating" at the end was a nice touch.

Flite

Thanks, Mindy.
Nina -- 18 Oct 2001, 17:52 GMT

I doubt I will have anything I think worth saying, though. I have to care in order to post...and I've concluded that on this one, I just don't.

Didn't want anyone to think I wasn't listening, though! The people here are too much fun for me to stay away.

I expected to be amused...
AC -- 18 Oct 2001, 18:15 GMT

and this episode didn't disappoint.

Yes, most of it was played in Light and Fluffy mode. But nonetheless, there were still some deeper moments -- the alien woman's reaction to seeing her child, as well as Trip's comment, "It's a girl?". His conversation with Phlox and Archer about what might happen should they not find the mother again was also interesting. And his adaptation to the alien environment aboard ship was also well done.

The "psuedo-water" scene was a bit silly, I thought. There's no reason Trip couldn't feed himself those little gelatin-like things, they were just going for the flirtation factor. At the same time, the interaction between Trip and the alien woman was very nice. It didn't really have the forced feel of an ABOTW encounter.

Best line of the episode -- Phlox: You might have to put those nipples to use. LOL. And the *look* Trip got from the waiter!

Was it Joyce who compared T'Pol's reaction to that of Dr. Laura? Quite apt. Not only did she believe that Trip would turn into Commander Horn-Dog at the slightest provocation, she also initially refused to believe him when he said there had been no sexual encounter. So, she automatically thinks humans have loose sexual morals and tell bald-faced lies to their commanding officers?

Second best line of the episode -- Trip: Just how I always wanted to get into the history books.

So, not very deep or ultimately compelling, but a fun hour nonetheless.

AC

Virginnie, what's this "For Shame" scolding?uld be consequences.
diane -- 18 Oct 2001, 18:46 GMT

She didn't think there would be consequences!

It's "A Brave New World"!

Di

I don't think it was rape either....
voyager fan -- 18 Oct 2001, 19:04 GMT

There was no violence, psychological or otherwise.

There was no INTENT to rape or commit violence, based on the information we see from the show.

Likewise, there was no intent to dominate another person, to debase or shame another person, or even to take advantage of another person.

Even if we assume that playing that mindreading game is how the species generally and typically procreates, which I kind of doubt, I think the above holds true.

Angela

Farscape group
voyager fan -- 18 Oct 2001, 19:05 GMT

How do I join? Thanks for the invite! Angela

I just invited you, Angela.
Terry -- 18 Oct 2001, 19:14 GMT

Just follow the instructions to subscribe. Get back to me here if you can't figure it out.

I was pleasantly surprised
D -- 18 Oct 2001, 19:29 GMT

Trip's predicament was accidental. From the limited spoilers I'd seen I expected this would be more along the lines of Kim in "Disease", that we'd be getting the beginning of the 3cm think rules on interspecies relationships. Though I suppose over the course of 7 seasons some of those rules will be written.

Is this the origin of the idea of holodeck technology? If so why did it take so long for it to become common (more than 250 years for Starfleet to adapt it for use on their ships, though it appears to have been widely used planet side much earlier)? No replicators to go haywire but plenty of other equipment, including the drinks dispenser.

Good to see the Universal Translator does work, not just for languages in the data base like Klingon but also for at least some newly encountered ones. The Klingons really were loose cannons at this point. At least they listened to T'Pol, but their exit speech doesn't bode well. Of course TPTB can't keep good relations with them when everyone knows conflicts with the Klingons started not long after first contact and lasted until the Kittomer Treaty. Presumably Archer & company will be there when the shooting starts.

UNEXPECTED, indeed--the most enjoyable episode so far!
david g -- 19 Oct 2001, 00:00 GMT

I really enjoyed this ep--finally, the humor seems warmhearted in the way it flows from the characters...very expertly acted, too, and nimbly written. This time, i even sorta liked Archer (shower scenes help)...

i love Phlox, so wry and witty; T'Pol has really been honed into a delicious character--and Trip was marvellously likable in this ep...also, I loved the alien chick--as good here as she was as Neelix's last-chance wife in the great HOMECOMING.

i really felt a genuine spark enlivened this ep and made me believe i could actually fall for this crew.

david g

Nina, it wouldnt be the same w/out you
david g -- 19 Oct 2001, 00:04 GMT

Please keep posting, dear Nina.

david g

Well, at any rate...
Sherry -- 19 Oct 2001, 00:17 GMT

...if anyone here says anything that inspires you to join in, please "speak" up. We'd really miss you if you didn't join in the discussions!

Sherry

A very interesting question, Di...
Deb47 -- 19 Oct 2001, 00:56 GMT

And one I'm ashamed to say I never considered.

I don't know if we can use Ginny's human/American legalese to define interspecies "rape", although Angela may be on the more appropriate track in her defense of her opinion.

It makes me go back to the question of "what" rape really means. If a mentally challenged person.... child or adult, is "taken advantaged of during a sexual act", then most people would argue that "act" was rape. The mentally challenged person wasn't able to "give consent".

The woman in a coma for 3 years who's found to be 3 months pregnant has "obviously" been raped... even if there was no "violence/no intimidation" because again she could not give consent for the act.

Trip did not give consent for the "act" of sexual/asexual (?) contact, and then could easily be seen as a victim of rape.

D47

Thanks for the warning, Nina...
Deb47 -- 19 Oct 2001, 01:00 GMT

Had you not said something, I would have worried that your silence was more related to your recent personal travails than to lack of inspiration.

And... as you said... we'll "always have Kathryn" to chuckle over... at least once a week with the Captain's blessings!

D47

Ninaaaaaa . . . don't MAKE me do this . . .
Janeway216 -- 19 Oct 2001, 01:09 GMT

I hate to do it, but you're driving me to . . . Posting More Often!!

Yes indeedy. Because if you were to stop posting, then someone would have to step up and fill in the gap. And since I don't pull my weight as a Nebbie regular, I'd have to post more.

My fingers are hurting just thinking about it!

Please spare me from carpal tunnel and keep posting!

216
Still composing her thoughts on "Unexpected"

Re: Y'know,
Deb47 -- 19 Oct 2001, 01:12 GMT

Guess its just our backgrounds that make us think of those things, Mindy.

BTW... I didn't have a problem with Trip's "cliched responses" to pregnancy. Just like I didn't have a problem with B'Elanna's fainting. I just think its interesting that having a male as the "host of the pregnancy" has colored some of our interpretations of it. Just like it may have colored some of our interpretations (down the thread further) regarding whether this was an act of rape.

Remember what Mr Vellick told Trip in the 10th grade.

Challenge your preconceptions, or they will challenge you.

D47

Not quite what I expected.
Janeway216 -- 19 Oct 2001, 01:39 GMT

I'll go back to my tradition of Good, Bad, and Ugly reviews for this one.

The Good

I gotta get it out of the way right quick: Porthos! That dog is almost too cute for words. He may be a plot device but he's sure an adorable plot device.

Trip's time on the alien ship before he "normalized." At first I thought, "whoa, man, this is one funky ship." Then I realized that it was Trip's problem, and that made it even cooler.

T'Pol. Okay, yeah, I'd like to know where she gets off carping at Trip like she's his Vulcan stepmother, but it was funny.

Oooh. People in civvies. What's more, people in civvies that actually look decent and like something people in their right minds would wear. I remember some pretty hideous stuff TNG-era (anyone remember the Boy Wonder's jumpsuit?). This was nice.

Shower scene effects (NOT that I liked the shower scene). It was like the Klingon blood in ST VI, but only better.

The scene where Trip tells Ah'len he's carrying her baby. He was all, "Can we get this thing out of me?" but then when Ah'len tells him it's a girl . . . aww, the look on his face was priceless.

The Bad

I am never going to be able to see Archer as anything more than Sam Beckett in a space suit. At least not now. I guess the problem with using Bakula is that I look at him and think, "Scott Bakula" rather than "Jonathan Archer." I haven't had that problem with any other captains so far -- even though I know they're Patrick Stewart or Avery Brooks or Kate Mulgrew, I think of them as Picard and Sisko and Janeway -- and frankly, it's less disconcerting to see them in other things than to see Bakula as Archer.

The nipples. Ugh.

All that flirting with the alien chick. I got really sick of watching her zap his lips with blue electricity. I think it was conscious flirting on both Trip and Ah'len's (that's how it's spelled, I have closed captioning) parts, Trip more obviously than Ah'len. Not to say that Trip considers himself a galactic stud muffin, but Ah'len hit it right on the head: he likes being found attractive. Of course he's going to flirt; he's simply that kind of guy. I don't think his intentions are ever to get laid.

Can we please get Mayweather a personality? Maybe it's in the Trek Bible that you have to have at least one dolt per series. Archer, being the captain, is pretty well fleshed out; T'Pol, by dint of being Vulcan, comes with a lot of character description; Hoshi's personality is very well developed, as is Phlox's and now Trip's; but Reed and Mayweather might as well be wallpaper. Reed is getting a bit more of a personality (he likes his guns, that's for sure) but Mayweather is as featureless as the lady with the egg face in that horror story.

The Ugly

YAATE. And the BRRB. I know both of those have already come up, but I want to register my dissatisfaction with them. That was such a gyp. "Oh, looky, it's a girl." "Oh, looky, I'm fixed." Gag me.

Dr. Phlox. I know other people are warming to him. But I can't stand him. I think it's the voice, I really do, and I know that's a little trivial to base my dislike of a character on. He just drives -- me -- nuts.

And, okay, couldn't let this one pass: Scott Bakula in the shower. Ewwww. They got a lot of mileage out of "hairy chest" jokes on QL, let's please not try to use the same oft-spoofed hair as sex appeal this time around.

216

Didn't she say that's the way they procriate.
Shadda -- 19 Oct 2001, 01:50 GMT

I thought her words were, I didn't think you could get pregnant, or something like that. If a human were holding hands with an alien and they got pregnant, then we would be surprised. But if a human had real sex with an alien and they got pregnant, well that is a different story.

I agree with Diane here, I think that it is interesting that they played it for laughs. It is afterall a female issue, why not play it for laughs.

If it had been B'Elanna or Kes, they would have played it differently and we here would probably have reacted differently.

Aside from that, why in the world would he develop a nipple on his arm? As Deb pointed out he has two perfectly good nipples on his chest. Obviously the female aliens use their large mammary glands on their chests, or why would they have them there? That just made absolutly no sense to me.

Of course, to be honest, I didn't really watch the whole thing. Perhaps they explained why the nipple was on his arm.

Shadda

That's why I said something instead of just shutting down, Deb.
Nina -- 19 Oct 2001, 02:02 GMT

It somehow seemed called for...and I like the people here too much to just "go away."

Besides, Eric and david g might talk some more about "Smallville." That's fun, in addition to the retrospectives!

My, you are a CREATIVE person, Janeway 216.
Nina -- 19 Oct 2001, 02:06 GMT

Thanks for the chuckle!

(I had no idea WHAT was coming after that subject line! )

Consent isn't the issue. Intent is.
Virginnie -- 19 Oct 2001, 03:00 GMT

Ah-Linn had no intention of impregnating Trip or otherwise breaching his bodily integrity. It simply isn't rape without intent, which was, I think, one of Angela's points, too.

Was it really?
Janey -- 19 Oct 2001, 06:34 GMT

"I loved the alien chick--as good here as she was as Neelix's last-chance wife in the great HOMECOMING."

Is that who she was? It was driving me nuts because I kept saying "I know I know her from somewhere."

So that begs the question: Dexa the Talaxian or Ah-Linn the...what were they again?

As for the rest of the episode I did enjoy it, but was thoroughly distracted by the West Wing epsidoe that was on after it. Overall it was decent but knocking off my socks yet. I kept waiting for "that moment" you know the one that you'll never forget. A couple came close (ie Trip's "it's a girl?" and the expressions on the bridge when Trip' pregnancy was announced) but when I realized the episode wasn't going to be as funny as I expected I was disappointed not to get the emotion I expected.

However this episode does have "awesome later" potential. It is the kind of episode that seems ify now, but come season three or so it will be higher on the list.

Well, I didn't realize that it was only considered rape when
Deb47 -- 19 Oct 2001, 13:05 GMT

the perpertrator intended to impregnate. Does that mean sterile men can't be rapists?

Ginny, believe it or not I "see" where you are coming from, but I also see where Di is coming from and I think her issues are valid ones to raise.

You believe that Ahlien didn't "intend" to impregnate Trip, and yet you can't deny she knew the act she engaged in could lead to that very state with a member of her own species. You can't deny that his body "was" invaded... given the evidence of the blastocyst within the pericardium.

She wasn't shocked to find he was pregnant... only that he... an alien... "could be" pregnant.

Look, the episode was played for laughs and that was how I took it in my ethnocentric/chauvinistic viewpoint but it actually could have gone the other way.

As Mindy and I have discussed elsewhere, the fetus growing within the pericardium for another 6 weeks should have been incaptible with human life. As the alien placenta formed and sent out "roots" to find blood and nourishment, it should have interferred with the ability of the heart to function.

Let me ask you something.

If the scientific advisors to this show had followed this line of reasoning and Trip was on the verge of death... would you still be so ready to claim "no harm/no foul" for Ah-lien?

(Is her name "alien" with a southern accent?"

D47

I "did", Shadda... and They "didn't".
Deb47 -- 19 Oct 2001, 13:08 GMT

Hey... OT here... have you seen the promos for the Dec showing of the Pretender movie? My friend said it looks VEEERRRRRRRRRRRRRRRYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY good.

D47

The "scientific advisors" of Trek...
Mindy -- 19 Oct 2001, 14:09 GMT

...do they even have them, Deb? I'm sure they would have pointed out the inconsistency of the placement of the embryo/fetus, which would have meant heavy rewrites for Dr. Phlox (at least) and turning a comedic episode into a dramatic one...I tend to think they just threw in the pericardium because it was an unusual place for a human to carry a baby, without thinking of the consequences...if they had, perhaps they could have implanted it in the latisimus dorsi over Tripp's shoulder blades? (The only place I can think of that wouldn't really interfere with his life functions...although it would give him a hell of backache and probably interefere at the later stage with his upper body mobility, and some movement of the rib cage for breathing.

Mindy

Janeway, refresh my memory please?
Mindy -- 19 Oct 2001, 14:16 GMT

What's YAATE and BRRB?

As to Bakula's chest hair...sorry, babe, but I just want to run my hands through it!

Mindy

Di, do you think that would fit Tripp's character?
david g -- 19 Oct 2001, 14:22 GMT

Im interested in your point here (and i love the 1st half hour at least of REPRESSION) but...

Tripp seems to me the last person who'd claim he was raped. he was embarrassed enough to have been impregnated.

i thought this episode did a funny job of parodying the universal male fear (if im ay essentialize my brethren) and wonder over pregnancy and women's bodies, by making the randiest and most "male" character on the ship (Tripp reminds me physically SO much of the young Dubya--am i the only one who sees this?) the one feminized by a pregnancy.

I also have to say, Phlox is deliciously funny. he's like a confident, non-neurotic fusion of Doc, Neelix, and...hmmm. somebody else.

dg

The Klingons are too DS9 rather than TOS
david g -- 19 Oct 2001, 14:27 GMT

I would prefer to see the Khang type of Klingon, and so far these Klingons are more DS9-like...id thought we were going to get the murderous cunning Klingons of yore, which excited me no end.

dg

YAATE = [Y]et [A]nother [A]brupt [T]rek [E]nding.
Jules -- 19 Oct 2001, 15:02 GMT

It's included in the list of board abbreviations in the Help (see top/bottom right hand corner of the main navigation bar for the page).

http://www.nebulaboard.f2s.com/help.html#acronyms

BRRB is a new one on me though.

Jules

I don't think that's what Ginny said, Deb
Jules -- 19 Oct 2001, 15:21 GMT

She was talking about "intent" being a requirement for rape. Sure she mentioned impregnation as well, but as an example of how that intent might be carried out.

Not having seen the episode yet I can't tell what her body language may have said about Ah'lin's actual intentions, but I gather that she was flirting with him more than anything. Was she leading him on? If that is how her race procreates, then yes, maybe she should have backed off a little whether she thought they were safe from anything happening or not, but that might have led to embarrassing conversations if she'd had to explain why. How many cultures are entirely comfortable explaining the mechanics of procreation to others of their own kind, let alone an alien race?

Perhaps she was playing with their cultural and biological differences a little, but she obviously did not intend what happens. Ignorance isn't always an excuse, but if any harm had come to Trip it would have been an accident.

In answer to your question: actions ought to be judged on their own merits, rather than because the perpetrator was lucky/unlucky enough to escape any bad consequences of them. So no, I don't think it would affect my viewpoint on the subject even if Trip was at death's door.

And in answer to another question that has come up several times: would I feel differently if it were Kes or B'Elanna who got pregnant in those circumstances? Yes, I would. I like them both, but I like Trip better right now, so I'm more likely to be protective of him than them.

And shouldn't it be "How would you feel if it were T'Pol or Hoshi?" anyway? Different ship, different times, different circumstances. Although Begonia has written a truly excellent story in which Tom Paris undergoes a male pregnancy. (He does suffer from complications due to not being biologically equipped to carry the child, btw.)

Jules

OT: No, haven't seen it yet
Shadda -- 19 Oct 2001, 15:25 GMT

I am so looking forward to that movie!!!!

Shadda

BRRB = [B]ig [R]ed [R]eset [B]utton.
Janeway216 -- 19 Oct 2001, 15:38 GMT

I thought I'd picked it up here, but it must have been somewhere else.

216

No, it wasn't here.
Jules -- 19 Oct 2001, 15:40 GMT

I like it though. Thanks. Must add it to the list. Since Braga's still in charge we'll probably get plenty of mileage out of it.

Hmm. It even has icon potential...

Jules

Actualy they are Voyager Klingons...
Eric -- 19 Oct 2001, 16:24 GMT

Which is to bad somce i loved the DS9 Klingons!

Ron Mooore gave the DS9 Klingons some real bite, i loved the whole Warrior ethic he gave them. The only better Klingons were the ones in ST6.

Plus on DS9 they were such bad a$$es! Martok and Worf ruled on DS9. The episodes on Martok's BoP were always a LOT of fun.

The Klingons on Voyager always lacked that edge. They went though the motions but never seemed as vibrant or as full of life.

The Klingons of Enterprise remind me of the Voyager versons.

Eric

Doctor Dave, I think the other "person" you're looking for is Bones...
Mindy -- 19 Oct 2001, 18:43 GMT

...i.e., Dr. Leonard McCoy.

Mindy

Don't most women who have been raped feel embarrased and shamed?
Diane -- 19 Oct 2001, 20:01 GMT

Yes, David, when something like this happens, it is part of his character or any other character. Who wants to admit they were raped or even admit they were an innocent victim in this type of situation. For an example, take a 19 year old college student. He/she really likes the new person they met at a party. They start getting romantic, a drink gets drugged, the student wakes up in a strange bed not remembering anything. Don't you think this person would be embarrased?

Also, wouldn't you call Alhan's romantic actions "intent" even if they were not malicious? By bringing Tripp into the Holographic chanber, and initiating a romantic setting, and iniating "The Game" which was sex, she had intent.

She also displays immaturity and irresponsibility for not telling Tripp what he was getting himself into and what could result. "She didn't think"! It's like children finding a gun and playing with it, bang, it goes off and a child is shot." What do you hear, "I didn't think..." from the child and the parent. Alhan was not portrayed as a child.

As you stated, you feel TPTB did a good job at making fun at the Male Fear. I just saw Braga and Berman making fun and light of rape and and responsibility that may result from sex, which also shows me their lack of maturity.

This episode could have been so much more.

As you know, this episode bothered me.

BTW, didn't this remind you of "Brave New World"? And, this subject of "unawareness" reminds of the poem "The Feast of St. Agnas." There's some Lit references for you Dr. Dave!

Di

Re: "Intent".
displaced nebbie -- 20 Oct 2001, 01:45 GMT

You know, for a "cute episode", I'm doing way too much posting on this subject.

Intent.

Jules, I don't think Ahlien "intended" to make Trip pregnant, but I DO believe she intended to have what amounted to intimate relations ...

(still not sure is "sexual" is an appropriate term for a race that "doesn't need the male genome", but just a male "host")

...with Mr Trip.

Relations which were "without" his consent.

"Hey, lets play a game" isn't anywhere near informed consent in my book.

I think the "reason" we the viewing public are blase about this, is because it was "played for laughs" and the "victim" of the act didn't seem to think of it in these terms so naturally "we" didn't think of it in these terms.

But I wonder... if time went on and the baby was delivered, and Trip had to give up his job to "care for the infant"... would he change his mind? Would he come to look upon the child and the act that brought about the child in the same terms the enraged Chakotay intially thought of Seska's baby? (before Vision Quest daddy calmed him down)

Like I think I said before, I DON'T know the answer to Diane's question but that doesn't mean it doesn't intrigue me.

D47

Re: The "scientific advisors" of Trek...
displaced nebbie -- 20 Oct 2001, 01:57 GMT

Now THAT's cruel, Mindy!

As for other locations available to implant the fetus, heck, they could have put it anywhere they wanted. Why in heavens name did they come up with the sack that encloses the heart anyway?

They could have had it implant on the inner abdominal wall so that when it expanded it didn't impact on any structure and thus not risk Trip at all. If they wanted "some" drama, they could have it implant on the kidney an organ with a rich blood supply and one that if it had to be sacrificed in delivery would still have another available to assume all needed functions.

Maybe we should offer ourselves up for second opinions on medical questions.

D47

Don't think Trip was raped...
Pixie -- 20 Oct 2001, 02:36 GMT

I saw about 15 minutes of Enterprise including the moment of infection (note: I didn't say conception). As far as I could tell, Ah-lien infected Trip with her spawn, much like a insect can lay an egg in host or like (in fact far less intrusively) infected then the poor saps in the ALiens series. I don't even know why anyone would consider this the first cross species impregnation or why Tripp was surprised that the fetus was female, since all the DNA came from the mother.

Honestly, I don't remember anyone getting upset when the Caretaker was using Harry and B'Elanna to procreate. Hijacking their DNA and bodies. Nor do I remember people being up in arms when B'Elanna was sexually violated by Steth or by the HoloNazi and artifically impregnated with a Holo-baby. Shiver.

As for the fifteen minutes that I saw:

1. Tripp was likeable. He seemed sweet and excited at the opportunities he's been given.

2. The alien chick was likeable. Phlox was okay; everyone else was blah. Eric the fifteen minutes I saw didn't have any Hoshi.

3. The cinematography was definitely movie quality. Unfortunately, given the dreck that most movies have become, the writing was also summmer '01 quality. There were too many slow spots and cliches, but Trip remained endearing.

That'd be Andre Bormanis
Jules -- 20 Oct 2001, 14:40 GMT

Who I've seen listed in at least one place as being part of the actual writing staff for Enterprise. Prior to that he'd been the Trek scientific advisor for a while, and I have a vague memory that he's written a couple of stories for Voyager.

But as far as I know his job was more involved in keeping the inventive Trek physics in line, and trying to reference back some of the stuff the writers come up with to "real" scientific theory and terminology. I shouldn't think he'd be any more of a medical expert than anybody else on the staff.

So yes, they probably could do with a few extra technical consultants to cover both medicine and other disciplines that they fall down on. Given the evidence of the EMH and his backups, or lack thereof, they could clearly do with some computing consultancy as well.

Jules

Hmmmm, now THAT sounds like a plan, Cap'n!
Deb47 -- 20 Oct 2001, 19:05 GMT

Speaking of interspecies differences...I think one of my all time fav lines from startrek was...

"Thank God he had knees."

"That wasn't his knee you kicked."

D47

David, do you mean Seven of Nine in
Deb47 -- 20 Oct 2001, 19:07 GMT

"Retrospect" or Tuvok in "Repression"?

D47

Re: Well, I didn't realize that it was only considered rape when
Malcom -- 20 Oct 2001, 19:37 GMT

Let's face it, the law hasn't handled rape very well at all. Hell, women couldn't even sit on juries in NY state until the early 1960s. When I was living in Toronto, some rapists (yes, there was a group of them) were ruled guilty but sentenced to weekend public service because the woman, "should have known better than to accept a ride home with them." Guess the law doesn't protect the stupid or you can do whatever you want to a stupid person and get away with it.

Thankyou! That was driving me nuts too
Sue_B -- 22 Oct 2001, 00:12 GMT

David g-

Thanks for making the connection to Neelix's new wife. I KNEW I recognized her voice. I just couldn't place her.

Thanks again, Sue_B

Ahh, the joys of close reading. I did mean RETROSPECT, not REPRESSION, although....
david g -- 22 Oct 2001, 15:41 GMT

both RETRO and REPRESS had exemplary first halves and less successful second halves.

dg