The Coffee Nebula Board is for the discussion of Star Trek: Voyager and other sci-fi/cult shows. This is its Archive of episode discussions, top ten lists, fan fiction, and other miscellaneous musings.


Fight Or Flight

:tv: FIGHT OR FLIGHT Discussion Area...
SuzyQ -- 3 Oct 2001, 22:32 GMT

...And, don't forget, the special WEST WING terrorism episode airs tonight as well!

(Are we starting to count how many times Tripp takes his shirt off yet?)


Sounds like a plan to me, SuzyQ :agree:
Jules -- 4 Oct 2001, 00:28 GMT

Well... I guess we ought to wait and see whether Trip and shirt-shedding develops into a pattern first, but why not? Counting things is a time honoured Nebula tradition, and we don't yet know what this crew's feelings are on the subject of coffee.

And I'm kind of assuming they don't have any shuttlecraft to crash. :-)


Good Hoshi episode!
Terry -- 4 Oct 2001, 02:20 GMT

All of the cast seemed to be much more comfortable with their characters in this episode. I enjoyed it probably more than Broken Bow.

Even Porthos was acted better this week. ;-) Nice catch, boy!

T'Pol was more Vulcan and showed a dry sense of humor. "If I can't locate that squeak, I'll have to rip it up, panel by panel." "That would be .. unfortunate." :-) Her timing on that time was perfect.

And Phlox is no Neelix. (I never did think so but many have said so.) I loved his dig at Hoshi. "Maybe she should be returned to a friendier environment." "Maybe somewhere she can teach?" Ouch, nasty. He may be a bit flaky but he's no clown.

It was nice to see a bit more of Reed. He seems like a good character so far. Hopefully, we see more of him soon.

Mayweather? Dull character, still. Just a prop to say something foolish so someone else can make sense. "Weapons? What's the rush?"

I was glad to see that everyone's whining about Hoshi's screaming was overdone. Yes, she was scared and is uncomfortable in putting herself in danger and bearing responsibility. In that, she comes across as the most human one of the crew.

Her handling of her fears and having to come through to save the ship was cool. Although, at one point, I wanted her to stop whining and just try to translate. I'm glad to see that at least one of the characters actually has some fear to overcome.

Only two female characters? So far, they are the most interesting of the characters.

Now that's more like it.
D'Alaire -- 4 Oct 2001, 02:29 GMT

2nd ep luck comes through again. :)

Yeah, I liked this one. I liked T'Pol a lot more (if not her wig and, er, outfit ;) ). I liked Archer more and, well...

Hoshi is totally cool! :D She might scream, but dangit, she knows she does and she overcomes it. She feels more real to me than any of 'em in my opinion. A little at a time...

Gee, didn't B'Elanna get past something or another in Parallax? Hmm! Yes, yes, they're different characters, and the situations are quite different--and I'm glad of that (nothing compares :) ), but I couldn't help but think of it, as the theme was pretty similar.

I also like how the plot came around. I liked that they took the time to flesh out things before getting to the baddie, whoever they were (would have been nice to know), and I would have liked to have "met" their new friends (maybe seen Hoshi talking with one) in a bit at the end , instead of the space shot at that beginning of the last log. But I like that, despite little lags here and there, we got into the characters a little more. I was really, really hoping for that after last week.

Really good creepy Alien-like scenes, really good Phlox scenes. Porthos rules the world.

I like how their tech basically, well, sucks. That's sort of fun--and I think I'll like Voyager's even more for it. :)

I don't still care for Archer's jabbing at Vulcan things, but in this case, it came to a point where he got himself to act and the plot to move, so I don't regret it.

I'm not putting my thoughts together well at this point. I'm watching Isaac and Ishmael on TWW as I write this.

I'll pop in on others' comments later. :)

:agree: Totally, Terry.
D'Alaire -- 4 Oct 2001, 02:31 GMT


Only two female characters? So far, they are the most interesting of the characters.


Well, I'm not ready to fly yet . . .
Janeway216 -- 4 Oct 2001, 02:35 GMT

I agreed with myself to give this show until December. If they keep on as they've begun, they'll have one loyal and dedicated viewer.



Archer -- It's going to take longer than two episodes for me to stop seeing him as Sam Beckett in a space suit. The thing I like most about his character is his dog. Golly, Porthos is cute.

T'Pol -- Believe it or not, she's growing on me. Her delivery is getting a lot more Vulcan (has she been studying Tim Russ?)

Mayweather -- Still not making much of an impression.

Reed -- Man, I love his accent. I think he's got potential.

Trip -- Could you please stop whining for a moment?

Hoshi -- I am loving this gal more and more. Sure, her confidence crisis was a bit . . . what's the word, formulaic, but at least it shows she's not really so perfect. She gets claustrophobic in space suits. Sure, she's "Enterprise"'s screamer, ;-) but she didn't seem too happy about that. "I screamed like a twelve-year-old," great. And only B&B would use a slug as a metaphor for someone that pretty :-D.

Phlox -- I couldn't stand him in the first episode, and he was a minor player. He had a larger part here, and my dislike of him increased, if that's possible. God. If they start doing Phlox episodes like they did Doc episodes, I'm gonna hurl.


It was a little slow, but then again we're still developing characters. Sato got some fun quirks, and we saw more into Reed and Trip's characters. Mayweather still is forgettable, though.


The more I see of these sets, the more I like them. It is a bit of a contrast to have such a pretty, sleek ship on the outside, and then the neo-submarine look on the inside, but I don't know, it works for me. One of the things I really like is T'Pol's little viewer. It gives a nice little retro feel, like Spock's viewer, but it moves in and out too. (Spock's may have moved; I haven't seen much TOS. It comes on at an inconvient time.) The little flip-up comm panel was great too.

I'm really liking these uniforms, too. This is what Starfleet uniforms should have looked like in TOS, TNG, DS9, and VOY, instead of what they had. Let's face it: those uniforms were pretty but impractical. Can you see NASA sending out people in velour shirts? No.

The last few minutes of the show should have pleased all those people that get picky about everyone in the galaxy speaking English all the time. That Axanar didn't speak a word of English. And Hoshi's experience was probably a lot more realistic than the "magic" UT of the other series. Have you ever tried to run something through Babel Fish or its kin? What you get is pretty garbled, especially if it's not a terribly common language (yeah, try to translate some Dutch. Have fun.)

Nits: This show is set before TOS, and yet their tricorders are sleeker and more futuristic-looking? I think not.


Something else I forgot to mention . . .
Janeway216 -- 4 Oct 2001, 02:40 GMT

So much for Hoshi's being the little woman unable to defend herself. She's certified on Betsy.


I didn't care for this one much...
Mike -- 4 Oct 2001, 02:46 GMT

...for instance, if that ship that finally came to the Enterprise's rescue had the power to stop the bloodsucker's ship, how come the dead crew on the ship destroyed didn't stop the bloodsuckers or at least call for reinforcements? Evidently they had the technology or the second ship couldn't have so easily stopped the enemy. Why would the bloodsuckers mess with that species that could stand up to them in the first place? Too many holes for me.

I had a few problems with this one. Hoshi was way to wimpy to have ever made it through starfleet training and the way she acts makes me wonder why she joined starfleet in the first place with nerves like hers. I don't buy it was because she wanted to meet and learn languages of new races. Archer had to talk her into that to get her on the ship. For goodness sake, she couldn't even sleep on the side of the ship where the stars were going in the wrong direction to her! And the analogy between the slug's plight and hers was just to cute [groan].

Okay, at least the beagle (Porthos) was really cute. And he has a great name too. Oh and Jules, they do have shuttles on the ship. It was also neat to see how the shuttle docks to the ship.

I didn't much care for this episode, but again, it's much too early to judge the whole series yet. At least the acting and F/X were okay.


Perhaps TOS tricorders purposely designed to look retro? :-) (NIM)
Terry -- 4 Oct 2001, 03:17 GMT

What I noticed most...
Joyce H -- 4 Oct 2001, 03:18 GMT

Was that the plot was rather thin. It struck me as a two or three act story stretched to cover five acts. Maybe because we're still in character intro, but then again, we didn't learn a whole lot more about the characters, either.

And it was utterly formulaic that the Crisis Du Jour required the skills of the person who's having their own Crisis of Faith , so the Captain can do the 'you can DO it!' pep talk, which is hoary enough that Galaxy Quest did a riff on it.

On the plus side, T'Pol seems to have gotten over that sneering thing she had going on in the pilot.


Nina -- 4 Oct 2001, 03:23 GMT

I am really puzzled by this "Vulcans are not interested in exploration," "Vulcans are not curious" business. Do I hear an echo of Seven of Nine describing the Borg? In all the years I've been watching and reading Trek, in all its various incarnations, it seems to me that Vulcans ARE curious and Vulcans ARE explorers. So I find T'Pol's asserting otherwise (a) strange, and (b) too darn convenient a plot device (to give Archer & Co. something to defy).

Not a bad episode, though. I liked it that "the screamer" dealt with her fears, and I liked the metaphor of the alien slug. I also liked Phlox hoping the two junior officers would let him watch...and Archer's awkwardness when he thought he was making first contact with what turned out to be shipload of corpses.

On the other hand, I never worked on a chapter during a first-run Voyager episode.

MUCH better! Or was it just the fact that it was a Hoshi show? :cool:
Eric -- 4 Oct 2001, 05:04 GMT

Ok, like Rhys i thought this one was much better. I also liked how itn was paced with a good 15-20 minutes just visiting with our crew. And ANY all Hoshi Hour is more then welcome with me.

However i have a question. The Axanar have been around since TOS but i'm trying to remember if they were bad guys. I know Kirk had dealings with them, i thought they were the local bullies. Any TOSers in the house to help clear this up?

I like how they are already building up Hoshi! I don't want her to become super Ensign but finaly giving the poor girl a gun was VERY welcome and also giving her some confidence. I like that a LOT.

T'Pol is still annoying but at least she was a little better this week. Or maybe it was we saw less of her! :p

Meryweather is still the Invisible Man! :eek:

Phlox was a lot of fun this week but damn i hate that makeup!

Reed is quickly rising in the ranks. This guy is COOL. I want to see more of this guy. I want him deep, deep, in the doo-doo. Lets see what a Armsmaster can REALLY do! :D

Trip was less wooden but his drawl gets weirder ever day! Why not get a southern guy to play a southern guy? Worked for Farscape! :p

Archer really ruled this week. Bakula was much more connected to his character. I just LIKE a Captain who is not afraid to get on the floor and listen to squeaks. A little less dignafied then Picard listening to the Warp Core but that is a god thing IMHO.

I love the scenes with Porthos but i just have to ask....where and how does Porthos take care of business, hmmmm? :eek:

The FX continue to be great but i have to wonder about having the shuttle doors in the roof! Sure in space it may not matter but what about planet landings?

Plus is it me or is the NX01 a.....wimp? If you name a ship the Enterprise it can't be a wimp!!!! They must fix this and soon!

Sheesh they give the show a wimpy song and now the ship is wimpy!!!!

I long for the Defiant! :cool:


MCCSaxman -- 4 Oct 2001, 05:06 GMT

First a little Disclaimer: I haven't had a chance to read most of the posts, I just don't have time to lurk let alone read all the posts here or on any other Trek site for that matter.

I guess I will start w/ Fight or Flight. The episode was ok, I would agree w/ some of the other posts. It did seem to drag alittle, and I do like that they are not always relying on some technobabble to solve every problem, that they aren't perfect and need help from other people arguably more powerful than they.

As Pilot's go, Broken Bow was ok. I am not sure if I have seen TNG's, I know that I haven't seen DS9's, or TOS's. But I have seen Caretaker, and IMHO Broken Bow is no where near the level that Caretaker was. Broken Bow never really set up the series. There was no critical decision that would set the tone. With Voyager you had the decision of destroying the Array and being left 70000LY. Maybe I am in denial, we will see.

My opinion on the cast is still undecided. Bakula as a captain hasn't really struk me yet. He seems more analytical like Picard was. You kind of expect more of a Kirkish type person coming from an early Federation capitan.

I hope the flyboy pilot chills out some and gets a clue. I think Tom Paris would be making fun of him if he was on this ship. He makes Chekov and Sulu seem like like comic relief. Even poor Harry had more character than this by the 2nd episode.

The Engineer does need to stop whining. With T'Pel (however you write her name) they are making her to much like 7 of 9. I seriously doubt a Vulcun would dress like that. I also noticed that she was standing in a similar way to how Seven would stand.

The "Yelling Girl" seems like Harry in a way in that she is naive, but she also acts like that couple in Good Sheperd; both the girl and the boy.

I disagree with what some people think of the doctor. One of the few areas that they can't seem to screw up is the doctor, of course Beverly pretty much sucked (IMHO). The Doctor was awesome, so was Bones, Bashier was ok but just a little arrogent, Crusher was boring. This doctor has the potential to be just as much of a comic relief as The Doctor and we will see how he stacks up to Bones.

I think that is everybody maybe not. Overall, I don't think it is as good as Voyager was most of the time. But I guess that is what TNG and DS9 fans said about Voyager. We will see. One thing I do like is the WIDESCREEN format. That is really nice

Hopefully I won't get shot down to much for this post.


Its been forever since I posted here, but it is always good to come back.

Hoshiiii's gonnnaaa make it after alllll [throws hat up in the air]!
Jason -- 4 Oct 2001, 05:35 GMT

"Fight or Flight" was a bit of a mixed bag in some ways, but it had a lot of very pleasing aspects.

First of all, I wonder if Braga is trying use the same approach in getting into ENTERPRISE as was done on VOYAGER? I couldn't help but notice some similarities to his own "Parallax". Just as "Parallax" set up the relationships between the characters well for VOYAGER, "Fight" saw one character get very well established, and a lot of progress made in the background in terms of how the other characters will also relate to each other.

Although I think "Parallax" worked better than this (though not because of any fault in introducing Hoshi's character), Sato made a much better introduction, both in the way she is portrayed as a character, and portrayed by the actress.

In fact the performances seemed much sharper this week all around.

Things I liked:

--Trip excitedly asking questions over dinner. It was a subtle reinforcement of the "excitement" of space behind the premise of ENTERPRISE and was put to good effect.

--The dinner scene in general was very good in showing how the top three officers play off each other's personalities to produce some interesting friction. Archer's sudden justification for going back to help the Axanar would make Janeway proud. (But wasn't it a "silly" mistake? Huh, Braga?)

--Nice interplay between the Doctor and Hoshi, and the worm metaphor was very sweet.

Things I Didn't Like:

--For a show of firsts, boarding the alien ship seemed very routine. Perhaps not so for the characters but as an audience member it was nothing I haven't seen from Trek many times. A much better sense of awe would have been nicer.

--Perhaps as a result, the scenes on the alien ship seemed to bring the story to a dead halt. Just to mention "Parallax" again, that was an episode which had a lot of tech, but tech made charming ("Warp particles!") in part by the egos and competition of the characters involved in the story. It seems that ENTERPRISE has had its share of tech so far. Admittedly I suppose a lot of that is an expositionary introduction to the show given it being the early days, but still, I think everyone hopes for less of the dry technical scenes.

Points of Interest

--Is there meant to be a homo-erotic element to Trip and Archer's relationship? Not that it was anything overt, but when Trip went to Archer to whine about not being assigned from the mission, it just certainly felt a bit... different.

--I liked how Hoshi didn't respond to Archer's questions about what was going on when she was talking to the alien. The performance was much better this week, and the character was interesting, and even if those elements hadn't come into place, she still looked extremely cute.

So... the question I'm asking is, what does Hoshi need the rest of the crew for? ;-)


Yeah, they were implied to be bad.
Jason -- 4 Oct 2001, 05:39 GMT

I was surprised that they were the 'good guys' in this episode.

On another note, I think Reed is pretty cool too, I like how he played the 'liking to blow things up' subtext with those disappointed faces!


SHE IS MY MATE!!!!!!!!!!!! :p
Eric -- 4 Oct 2001, 05:42 GMT

I will fight thee to the last for sweet Hoshi! :D


I almost cried...
Q -- 4 Oct 2001, 05:42 GMT

during Enterprise's futile attempt to defend herself. :( They need to high tail it back to Earth so they can get refitted with more powerful torpedoes than those spitballs.

If we get more charecter-centric episodes like this, then I'll be willing to give this series a chance beyond one season.

Dumping Kes already? (nim)
MCCSaxman -- 4 Oct 2001, 05:43 GMT

You tell 'em, Eric. (NIM)
Janeway216 -- 4 Oct 2001, 05:44 GMT

"I screamed like a twelve year old!
Janey -- 4 Oct 2001, 06:07 GMT

Best line of the show.

All right so I am beginning to eat some of my words about the whole women thing, I knew I would so I washed some of them down with some Edy's ice cream during The West Wing episode.

Was that or was that not the best show EVER? (TWW)

But back to "Fight of Flight."

I liked the slug comaprison, only slightly brow-beating, but made up for in the Phlox's line about the slug going somewhere she could teach.

Hoshi is going to rock. She knows how to use a Betsy!

Biggest turn off: this captain doesn't break out the rifles. I was so disappointed when he said they were leaving them behind.

The whole blood draining thing was creepy; it reminded me of the Vidians.

I like Hoshi's sense of duty.

I like that Archer shook her, reiterating the very words she gave Doc Phlox as her reason for being there.

I like that she igonored Archer when conversing with the alien, when you're on a roll, don't stop!

I think I'm going to like Reed a lot.

Mayweather still is going no where fast, but there's time. I still like his smile.

Trip's eagerness was contagious, and I liked how it sparked Archer into acting by his conscience, very Janewayian.

T'Pol was much better (though like Eric I believe, I miss Seven). Things seemed to click a lot better with her. Though the dialogue they gave her was rather suspect. If Vulcans aren't curious or interested in exploration why the heck did they leave their planet?

But I did like that she made some key points about going where no one (at least no humans) had gone before. LIke the fact that some alien species don't "answer the knock on the door," and other similar statements. That is (hopefully) going to be a big lesson for this series. I'm thinking we're going to be witnessing the development of Prime Directive-like regulations.

I hope they keep up the Phlox and Hoshi friendship, I really enjoyed their scenes together, especially his smile at the end.

Phlox is just going to be a cool guy to watch.

What was that, Jason?
Ginny -- 4 Oct 2001, 06:31 GMT

Homoerotic subtext between Tripp (I give up--does his name have one "p" or two?) and Archer!?! I gotta watch this episode again. :-p

--I liked the dinner scene, too. Of course, I'm predisposed to like Tripp, but I was amused at all his questions and his awkward, but earnest attempt to talk his way onto the away team.

--Archer was much easier to take this week. And he was right. Tripp didn't need to go on the away mission. Of course, I didn't think Hoshi really needed to go either, but then it would have been a pretty short episode.

--Kudos to Jolene for getting that look of studied impassivity down cold. She was much more Vulcan tonight.

--I admit freely and without shame--I really like the doctor. He's weird and good-natured and incisive and weird. And I had to laugh when he handed a half-eaten piece of potato to Tripp to taste, and Tripp *ate* it. What a guy.

--Hoshi's a screamer...whoda thunk it? 8) Although, in all fairness to her, the interior of that ship creeped me out, too. And I like the fact that the shuttle couldn't just zip into the Enterprise shuttle bay, and the crew had to disembark on a catwalk.

But all is not sweetness and light.

--What the $%^&* was Hoshi thinking, picking up some weird alien bug and bringing it back to the ship in a make-up case? Good lord, what if it had been the prime minister of a species of sentient garden slugs? And what makes them think that something didn't eat Sluggo right up, the minute they abandoned it on that planet?

--I don't disagree with the decision to go back (after all, those lymph-sucking fiends could have posed a genuine threat to human beings, and the situation needed to be investigated), but that whole speech about going back was lame with a capital "L". Just be the damn captain and decide. Leave the speechifying for funerals and epilogues.

--Vulcans have no interest in exploration? *Vulcans* have no interest in *exploration*? In what mirror universe? Of course, Vulcans are interested in exloration. Otherwise, they would have stayed on Vulcan, sitting on their big logical asses and waiting for the next ponn far to roll around.

--I don't really believe that Hoshi could have communicated well enough to convince the alien to rescue them from the bad guys after so little time studying the language, but I'm trying to suspend a little disbelief. After all, *I* was the one who was actually able to derive some dramatic significance from the decon scene last week.

--Speaking of which, Tripp remained fully clothed the entire episode. What a gyp!

I liked Phlox, too.
Jason -- 4 Oct 2001, 06:43 GMT

I'm surprised the reaction to his character has been as mixed... and that it's drawn as many comparisons to Neelix as it has. I for one think that comparisons to Voyager's Doctor are probably a bit closer... and I can't help but think that this character is going to be used in abundance in much the same way.

Also, Hoshi talking to the alien-- I don't exactly see how she could have done better than the translator, although I guess the fact she was talking to the Axanar captain orally instead of sending words to his console is what is supposed to have helped foster a connection between them.


heihly edukaitid
Tim Holden -- 4 Oct 2001, 08:22 GMT

Maybe Hoshi DID only join Starfleet merely to fund her education or to get linguistic experience that she would be unable to obtain elsewhere. That does happen a lot in the 20th century. She wanted to be a teacher and saw that the experience gained at starfleet would be fantastic on her CV.

It would figure that if she had only fired a weapon in basic training then her fisrt fire fight would be a trauma. Maybe she didn't spend hours in a simulator, on the firing range etc. Did her basic then did her linguistic stuff that she found most interesting.

She was in a comfortable safe environment one week and the next people were shooting at her for real! Many soldiers irrespective of gender react badly to their first taste a real combat. I am sure as time goes on and she will gain in experience and confidence in combat situations.


Anaxar threatens the whole Federation
Tim Holden -- 4 Oct 2001, 08:32 GMT

I seem to remember that one of Kirks secorations was the "Palm Leaves of Anaxar".

In Whom Gods Destroy Kirks hero Captain Garth was required reading at the Academy. In 2250 he had a historic victiry at Anaxar that helped preserve the Federation.

I just love it when TPTB pick up on obscure TOS references! :) Give me hope that they may not actually wreck the whole timeline.


:agree: :agree: Fight or Flight
Vickie -- 4 Oct 2001, 14:35 GMT

That's 2 thumbs up for Fight or Flight. I liked it. I also thought it was better than Broken Bow. Clearly I'm not nearly as fussy about my Trek as some other people around here. :p

In fact, there is really only one thing I'm inclined to complain about. As a resident of Florida, also home to numerous species of ecosystem damaging invasive non-native plants and animals, I must ask Captain Archer, with respect to relocating Sluggo to a new planet, "ARE YOU NUTS?!?!!"

As for the rest of the show, yeah, I had a few little nits here and there, but nothing really worth complaining about.

In response to Mike's comment about it being unlikely that someone like Hoshi would have ever attended a military academy, I must disagree. Tim is right. Lots of people attend a military academy primarily for the education and future career opportunities, not because they are particularly military-minded. I have a friend whose son went to West Point and then to medical school at the Army's expense. I doubt he ever handled a gun more than what was required in routine training at West Point.

With respect to the characters on Enterprise, I'm having a veritable love-fest. Love Dr. Phlox. Love Captain Archer (granted, it helps that I love Scott Bakula). Love Tripp. Love Porthos. Love Hoshi. (I hasten to assure you that I meant those last 2 in a purely platonic and non-sexual manner. :-) )

I have a feeling that when I get to know Reed and Mayweather better, I'll love them, as well. I did thoroughly enjoy Reed's glee when Captain Archer said he could blow something up. My son gets that same expression on his face when I hand him his 4th of July firecrackers. :-)

Love T'Pol? I don't know. It's kind of hard to imagine warm and fuzzy feelings toward her at the moment, although she is certainly a valuable character. If she can get that subtle sense of humor going, I'll like her a lot better.

As for the plot, someone (Joyce?) commented on the lack of originality. I have to agree, but it didn't bother me too much.

I also questioned, as did Mike, how the first Axanar (?) ship got captured if the Axanar weapons (as seen on the second ship) could damage that alien ship so effectively. But then I decided that the first ship had been surprised or it was a cargo ship with few weapons and the ship that responded to the distress call was a military ship - sort of like a Coast Guard cutter responding to a sailboat's distress call. Mayweather did say earlier in the episode that his family's cargo ship didn't have many/any weapons.

Gee, I didn't intend to write a book, but I certainly did go on, didn't I? Well, I'll just sum this up by saying that I liked it.


Re: :tv: FIGHT OR FLIGHT Discussion Area...
MindyP51 -- 4 Oct 2001, 14:35 GMT

Didn't see it or TWW...had a date...but I'm still going to read everyone's posts and watch it Sunday, so mho will be late.

Forgot to tape TWW...was it great? Or what?


P.S.: Date went well. :-)

david g -- 4 Oct 2001, 15:11 GMT

I enjoyed this was much warmer and more humane than BROKEN BOW...ven Archer didn seem quite so odious to me.

I liked the rapport btwn Phlox and Hoshi a lot--Doc and Kes with a neurotic Kes and a warmly confident Doc...the "sluggo" stuff was quite heavyhanded, Telescript 101 stuff, though.

I also really liked the scene btwn Trip and Phlox--not to reignite a Bush discussion, but doesnt Trip look like the young current President? i must say, i enjoyed the randiness of Phlox, in that randiness hasnt gotten to enter Trek tat much (although remember that pro-promiscuity TNG ep where Riker asks Worf is enjoys having sex?)

I also could feel T'pol getting better--Blalock's line readings are deepening (same thing happened with Jeri Ryan).

The situation was rather standard, but i liked the woby tech/weaponshere..although as for the rest, ive yet to feel that this ship is any less modern than 24th cent ones.

Ok, isnt eerie how much like PARALLAX this ep is? 2nd ep, woman having trouble fitting in...and Parallax is much better, more affecting. Torres is vulnerable in it but also very strong.

I like Hoshi, but it sort of bothers me that she's the one in the weak, whiny role. It's just a bit too traditional. I think it's simply inconceivable for TPTB to have a man in that role. It sort of bothers me that Hoshi--who is a touching character, anyway--has to bear the burden of not fitting in, of being torn about being brave enough. Phlox, the alien, fits right in--but T'Pol and Hoshi are both uncomfortable outsiders, to varying degrees. That does bother me.

Travis continues to be a blandly handsome blank...i really like Reed and want to see more from him...

The whole dinner scene was effectively uncomfortable..but it really bothered me that Archer was so apoplectic with T'Pol, for having recommended they "fly." I mean, he's the Captain...why would he bark at her for simply having given an admittedly highly Vulcan response? He is the the one who made the decision. I was relieved that he pseudo-yelled at Trip, too...

but i have a feeing that the Vulcans are always going to be Archer's straw man, always going to be the types who need to be "educated" by humans...and that human courgae and values will be the bar against which others' values are measured.

Anyway, despite its frustrating aspects, Fight or Flight was a decent enough episode, and I enjoyed watching it.

david g

Terry, since when...
david g -- 4 Oct 2001, 15:18 GMT

are all criticisms simply "whining"?

david g

If Vulcans are not curious or into exploration...
MindyP51 -- 4 Oct 2001, 15:45 GMT

...they would have died as a society. Sociologically, cultures must move forward, or even backwards, to remain static is to die.

In terms of story, this statement really makes no sense. When the Vulcan starship first saw the indications of warp travel emanating from Earth (see FIRST CONTACT), why would they have changed course and landed, except for curiosity and exploration? For that matter, what would they be doing out in space at all if they were not curious and explorers?

I can buy that not ALL Vulcans are explorers, at least of space. But the statement seems to imply a cultural creed.


P.S.: Of course, not having seen the episode yet, I've really got no right to comment...:-)

The name "Axanar" sounds familiar, but I can't place them in TOS. Somebody...Help? (nim)
MindyP51 -- 4 Oct 2001, 15:52 GMT

It's cool that they remember the name but....
Eric -- 4 Oct 2001, 16:22 GMT

....the snake guys seemed pretty nice in this episode not the baddies that TOS describes.

Maybe he thougt Hoshi was cute to, huh? :D


You like Reed to??? :eek:
Eric -- 4 Oct 2001, 16:28 GMT

Stop that David, we have been agreeing to much lately and frankly it's scaring me now!! :p


It's a new beginning, Eric! :) NIM
david g -- 4 Oct 2001, 17:02 GMT

It might have been just the opposite.
Janeway216 -- 4 Oct 2001, 17:12 GMT

If there's one thing I've noticed about Vulcans, it's that they don't like categorization. I remember Tuvok's saying in "Caretaker," "Vulcans do not worry."

Maybe T'Pol was simply challenging the assumptions Archer and Co were making about her, true or not?


That's not how she sounded to me.
Nina -- 4 Oct 2001, 17:20 GMT

But clearly YMMV.

Maybe not.
Janeway216 -- 4 Oct 2001, 18:09 GMT

I was only offering a theory, and you're right, it's pretty flimsy.

Like everyone else, I have trouble rationalizing how a member of race that is so obviously composed of explorers and wanderers could deny those attributes with a straight face.

Unless . . . maybe T'Pol does not see herself as an explorer, and was using the classic "Vulcans do not" line to cover her own unease. But then what was she doing on Earth in the first place, and why did she agree to stay on Enterprise?

Gaah. I think your explanation sounds best, Nina.


Agreed about Hoshi & T'Pol, Terry...
SuzyQ -- 4 Oct 2001, 19:31 GMT

...I even sensed some understanding on T'Pol's part as to why Hoshi was so reluctant to translate. Her "Just try Hoshi. It doesn't have to be perfect," said a lot about her, Hoshi, and also the crew's situation.

The first contacts that Earth will have with other space-faring races will be far from perfect. But, they can't let that intimidate them from even trying, no matter what the results may be.

In a way, it also applies to the viewers. We'll have to adapt to this new Trek as well.


Hoshi and the military
Jules -- 4 Oct 2001, 23:32 GMT

My brother is career RAF. Other than during his six weeks of basic training, I don't think he's had much to do with guns except for the couple of weeks every year or so when it's his turn to do guard duty.

So if Hoshi's never had to shoot a gun in anger, I don't see it as being particularly unlikely.

Also, we've never been really sure that Starfleet is military, or at least not primarily so. Sure, it models itself along military lines, and certainly seems to have a lot of security concerns in the 24th century, what with the Dominion War and the Borg. But it felt less that way in Kirk's day, when they really did seem a lot more like the explorers and scientists that our crews often describe themselves as.

And in Archer's day... it sounds like they're still reaching for the stars. Seems to me that at this point they're still a little more like NASA than they are the navies that we tend to equate them with in later years.

And NASA, while it still recruits a lot of its astronauts from the military, has a lot of payload specialists aboard since the shuttle era began. Teachers, scientists, specialists in whatever field is needed... and I'd see Hoshi's role, as it's been described to me, as being more akin to that.

Sure, Enterprise is going a little further than just Earth orbit, and it probably makes sense to arm yourself against the unknown. But I still think the NASA parallel holds. It's a period of transition, and they haven't yet established Starfleet in the form that we're most familiar with.


It's all relative, david.
Terry -- 5 Oct 2001, 00:07 GMT

If I complain, it's insightful criticism. When others do it, it's meaningless twaddle. :-D

Okay, I didn't quite conceal my distaste for the Enterprise criticism after the grand total of one episode. Personally, I'm bending over backwards to give the show every chance to succeed. It's not like I think the show is any better than okay at this point. But I apologize, it wasn't whining.

It was jumping to conclusions based upon UPN promos, which is always a bad idea IMHO.

Maybe Vulcan exploration is only logical
Terry -- 5 Oct 2001, 00:15 GMT

and unrelated to an abstract emotional need to seek out the unknown. Perhaps a logical form of preemptive self-defense. They could have investigated Cochrane's warp drive because they feel that any new civilization with such technology represents a potential threat.

Remember, in TOS times: Vulcans didn't serve in Starfleet; Sarek wanted his son to stay at home to study science; the only Vulcan ships were considered science ships, not explorers.

Who says the Fed fought Axanarans at the Battle of Axanar?
Terry -- 5 Oct 2001, 00:22 GMT

A battle to save the Federation seems more likely to me to have been fought on Federation turf.

After all, the Yanks didn't defeat the Virginians (or the Yorks) at the Battle of Yorktown. Likewise, see the Battles of Stalingrad, Britain, Verdun, Gettysburg, Marathon, Normandy, etc.

Even when it's shamelessly admitted as such? :)
david g -- 5 Oct 2001, 00:29 GMT

Dear Terry, thanks for keeping us all--me--honest and keeping it all in perspective...

I mean that.

I was jumping to conclusions...though i suspect that ENT wont capture my heart as VOY did, i think im going to enjoy the show.

More even than that, Ill enjoy us all getting to compare notes on it.

david g

No problema, david.
Terry -- 5 Oct 2001, 00:39 GMT

Turnabout is fair play. No doubt I was incredibly annoying when I kept going on about how I thought Voyager's last couple of seasons sucked. It is weird how you and I have switched roles.

About Hoshi, Tim....
Mike -- 5 Oct 2001, 01:06 GMT

...I can accept part of what you're saying. That is why I didn't mention any problems she had in those areas, like firing a weapon or the shock of seeing dead bodies hanging. But when you see the episode, Tim, another thing Hoshi had problems with was sleeping because she couldn't get any sleep on the side of the ship where she felt the stars were going in the wrong direction. She was used to sleeping on the other side of a ship in her two (or what ever) previous training missions, so she asked to be moved. I mean for goodness sakes, close a shade or something, you're a Starfleet communications officer :^).

I know couples may prefer that one be on a particular side of the bed and such, but who cares what the stars are doing outside their window?

Anyway, these type of problems she has don't exactly show 'The Right Stuff', if you know what I mean. I would probably accept the idea of a character learning to feel comfortable in space as the series progresses if they had made her a civilian advisor or something like that, but not a Starfleet grad. I just can't accept that someone could make it through Starfeet training that doesn't like being in an environmental suit or can't sleep if the stars aren't on the proper side of the ship for her.

Hey, I'll cut her some slack and hope they make her character more starfleet type material in the future.


So far, so good.
D -- 5 Oct 2001, 01:34 GMT

Looks like a lot of our questions about Hoshi were answered. She may have completed the basic officers' training because she had to but she obviously didn't plan on actually serving on a ship. Starfleet is small enough at this point, and most ships slow enough, that she would have expected to serve out her career at a lab/teaching post on Earth where she could train linguists and maybe work on advances to the Universal Translator. Then the Warp 5 project produced the Enterprise and she found herself in a situation she never expected. Her reactions remind me of Neelix's before he caught the exploration bug ("The Cloud").

Others have pointed out the business about Vulcans being generally depicted as uninterested in exploring for the sake of exploring. I remember wondering about that during the conversation between Seven and Tuvok in Astrometrics in "One Small Step". They do have extensive fleets. Do they explore space because it is the logical thing to do, to learn as much about the universe, and make contact with as many other races, as possible?

Its looking more and more like Phlox will be Enterprise's Neelix (his relationship to and interactions with the crew, not the character) - unofficial ship's counselor with a bit of morale officer thrown in. In just 2 weeks he's already figured out the ship's rumor mill.

Had T'Pol not joined the crew would the Chief Engineer have been first officer? He is a full commander, though the rank may have something to do with this being an experimental ship that he helped design. It also seems to need a large engineering crew.

Weird but fun in friendship, Terry. NIM
david g -- 5 Oct 2001, 01:41 GMT

Kathryn -- 5 Oct 2001, 02:16 GMT

Agree To A Certain Point
Kathryn -- 5 Oct 2001, 02:21 GMT

I agree that Starfleet has never been declared the military of the federation. But on the other hand when a ship is armed for battle and it's officers have military titles and wear a sort of uniform then that in my opinion is military.


About "Axanar" sounding familiar, Mindy....
Mike -- 5 Oct 2001, 02:21 GMT

...Well if it's 'Axenar', Mindy, Captain Garth won a major victory at planet Axenar. Afterwards, James Kirk visited Axenar on a peace mission. The operation was a major achievement for Garth who was in overall charge of the mission. Starfleet awarded Kirk the Palm Leaf of Axanar for his role in his assignment (a peace mission).

Don't be impressed (or distressed) by my knowledge. This info came from my handy dandy outdated 'Star Trek Chronology' book where I looked it up. Someone else will probably correct it ;^).

I hope that helps.


Braga is going to have to work much harder to distinguish T'Pol from (my) Seven
david g -- 5 Oct 2001, 02:36 GMT

I already really like T'Pol and think Blalock can only go up in her performance...

but Seve--err, T'Pol is just way too Borglike and the VULCANS have become the Borg now, too...

i love Vulcans, and I am Borg, after all, but they are hardly the same species!

Here's the thing--what would you do to improve these matters? how to make Tpol more specifically Vulcan?

david g

Well, I always thought that Braga interpreted Seven as very Vulcanish.
Terry -- 5 Oct 2001, 03:13 GMT

Seven's interest in efficiency and how she felt so comfortable with Tuvok's mindset made me think that Braga considered the Borg as emotionless like the Vulcans.

Personally, I never thought that made sense. I concede an individual drone raised by the Collective would possess an cold personality with no sense of morality. But I couldn't see why she wouldn't possess strong emotions that would come out once the constant mental censorship of the Collective was removed. Or why she would have the self-control to handle them.

OTOH, the credo of Vulcan is "the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few". And that's the underlying belief of Communistic totalitarian regimes. And others: "We had to destroy the village in order to save it." And the Borg seemed to believe that they were doing everyone a big favor by assimilating them.

BTW, this is according to pre-Borg Queen canon. IMO, the idea of a Borg Queen is complete bull. One collective mind got turned into a cartoon monarchy.

T'Pol isn't a Vulcan!
Eric -- 5 Oct 2001, 04:30 GMT

Sure they say she is but she doesn't act, dress, speak or talk like one.

I've really stoppped looking at her as a Vulcan.

If B&B want to convince me they have to make her :

1) Meditate 2) Vulcan salute's 3) Nerve Pinch 4) Mind Meld

If they do these things then maybe i will start to look at her as a Vulcan again.

But until then she is Seven of Nine : part 2.


Agreed, Eric, though i do like T'Pol. NIM
david g -- 5 Oct 2001, 14:30 GMT

Shame on you for promoting stereotypes!
Vickie -- 5 Oct 2001, 14:44 GMT

IMO, to say T'Pol is not a Vulcan is like some space alien spending a year getting to know Eric as the only human crewman on a Vulcan ship, then meeting me and saying, "Vickie can't be human because she's nothing like Eric." It's ridiculous.

If I may launch a little rant on this subject...

Something that has always bothered me is how, based on 3 years of Spock and a few guest Vulcans on a couple of TOS episodes, people look at every other Vulcan and measure their Vulcan-ness against some rigid and narrow standard of what constitutes a "real" Vulcan.

More than one person here has said Kirstie Alley's character in TWOK, for example, isn't Vulcan enough. I say, how the h*ll do you know? Vulcan is a big planet. Surely you can't believe all Vulcans are exactly alike. Maybe there is some cultural ideal among the major population group on the planet, as espoused by Spock in TOS, but the degree to which each individual Vulcan acheives that ideal (or is even willing to strive for it) has to be widely variable.

Furthermore, surely you can't believe that Enterprise-era Vulcans would be identical to TNG/DS9/VOY-era Vulcans. That's like saying a Pilgrim off the Mayflower ought to be just like a Class of 2001 Boston College frat boy. After all, they're both Earthlings.

To sum it up, I say lighten up on this "she/he isn't Vulcan enough" stuff. IDIC applies to individuals within a population and not just to the whole big galaxy and the races that might inhabit it.


One other thing about Spock
Ruth -- 5 Oct 2001, 15:06 GMT

I am by no means a scholar of All Things Trek, but I've always gotten the impression that Spock is peculiarly repressed, even for a Vulcan, b/c of his mixed heritage. He was presented as a character that had suffered as a child because of his human side, and therefore had determined to be the Vulcaniest Vulcan of them all.

Even Sarek's personality seemed a little lighter and more open than Spock's, to me at least. Perhaps it was just that Amanda was there with him, and she softened him in my mind.


:agree: I second that emotion.
Nina -- 5 Oct 2001, 15:11 GMT

As a female human being who is driven NUTS by the recent "Mars/Venus" generalizations that assault my eyes and ears everywhere I go - many of which do not apply to me, and (flip side of which) would not have applied to the men who formed my girlhood models for "real manhood" - I hear you loud and clear, Vickie.

And I think you've said something true.

Okay, okay, OKAY!
Ginny -- 5 Oct 2001, 15:53 GMT

I'll stop complaining that T'Pol isn't Vulcan enough. Although I really did think she was much better at the "surface impassivity, underlying emotion" thing in ForF. And I, personally, like the character, even if I think her "Vulcan" wasn't all it should be in BB.

Ooops, I wasn't going to say that, was I?

Can I still say that I hate the catsuit, even though I object to it purely on aesthetic grounds, and not because it constitutes anything remotely resembling a sexist manifesto whose sole purpose is the marginalization and objectification of my beleaguered sisters? Good, because, otherwise, I wouldn't know what to say about that fetching bright blue underwear that the men have been sporting with such aplomb. Other than, "I like it. I like it a lot."

:rolleyes: That or she is just a crappy character....
Eric -- 5 Oct 2001, 16:58 GMT

Like it or not Nimoy set a standard for others to follow.

I liked Kirsty Ally, Robin Curtis and i REALLY liked Kim Cattrall!

THEY played Vulcans, Jolene does not.


Re: :rolleyes: That or she is just a crappy character....
Malcom -- 5 Oct 2001, 17:27 GMT

Ronit watched the show at my house Wednesday (her first time seeing ENT) and she couldn't get over how completely un-Vulcanlike JB is. Everything from posture, to her outfit to her intonation. I agree. So far, she's the weak link in the show.

You know, I've been thinking about the catsuit
Vickie -- 5 Oct 2001, 18:25 GMT

Since both 7 of 9 and T'Pol favor the catsuit, there must be some logical reason for wearing one. For example, you wouldn't have to worry about loose clothing catching in any machinery.

It also really cuts down on the luggage since you don't have to pack any undergarments (well I haven't noticed any panty lines).

And you'd never have to iron because any wrinkles are smoothed out when you streeeeetch the fabric over your body.

You wouldn't have to worry about your shirt matching your pants, either.

See, it's simply not true that the "sole purpose is the marginalization and objectification of my beleaguered sisters." Maybe the main purpose, but not the sole purpose. :-)

Now, if I could just think of a few reasons to justify more scenes of the men in their spiffy blue underwear... :-)


P.S. What kind of shoes is T'Pol wearing? Anybody notice? NIM
Vickie -- 5 Oct 2001, 18:27 GMT

Re: One other thing about Spock
Sherry -- 5 Oct 2001, 18:53 GMT

I've seen the idea that Spock was driven to be more-logical-than-logical before, and I think it makes sense. Sarek seemed to be a great deal more at ease than Spock; he wasn't driven to prove constantly how un-emotional he was. Some of that was probably due to Amanda's influence, but I think it was also a taste at what a typical marriage between two Vulcans was like.

Ronit has always shown great taste! :D....NIM
Eric -- 5 Oct 2001, 19:10 GMT

It IS logical to wear a Catsuit to work! Really! :p


Well, I haven't seen it yet, Mike, but I do agree with you about,,,
MindyP51 -- 5 Oct 2001, 22:06 GMT

...a Starfleet graduate not being able to sleep 'cause the stars are moving the wrong way just sounds wrong to for the environmental suit...well, perhaps she toughed it out to get through training?? I'd be willing to cut her some slack at least, although it would be like a navigator and weapons man not liking to go up in a F-16, right?


Logically, an interest in science would be inherent upon one's curiosity into such matters.
MindyP51 -- 5 Oct 2001, 22:11 GMT

Science is a form of exploration.


Actually, Mike, I was distressed about MY lack of knowledge!!! And I call myself a Trekker?
MindyP51 -- 5 Oct 2001, 22:13 GMT

I should be ashamed!!! :-)


Didn't I say that T'Pol reminded me of Seven? I did, I know I did!!! :-)
MindyP51 -- 5 Oct 2001, 22:17 GMT

BTW, Eric, I :agree: with you! :-)


Good rant, Vick! :-) But...
MindyP51 -- 5 Oct 2001, 22:20 GMT

...Saavik is half-Romulan. If you want, imho, a good example of a female Vulcan, look to Kim Cattral (sp?) in UNDISCOVERED COUNTRY....Valeris.

And of course there's always T'Pau and T'Pring.


Ruthie and Sherry, good points! But see my post below. (nim)
MindyP51 -- 5 Oct 2001, 22:22 GMT

Okay, just thought of something...might be gross to the men here...
MindyP51 -- 5 Oct 2001, 22:25 GMT Vulcan women menstruate? Do they suffer from hormonal fluctuations? As in PMS?

Possibly, because of that hormonal thing, they might even be colder and more logical than Vulcan men? To combat it?

Or perhaps they retreat into THE RED TENT? That really appeals to me.


Then again, maybe T'Pol was proving that Vulcans can lie when logic requires them to do so. :-P
Nina -- 5 Oct 2001, 22:28 GMT

And in this case, she was determined to stop Archer from doing what she believed he should not do! Perhaps she just hasn't yet grasped (at least not fully) the undeniable truth that Vulcan advice about how to relate to the rest of the galaxy doesn't impress this human one bit, because it seems to have worked very well on his kind until he came along. He simply doesn't buy into the "mentor must be obeyed" mind-set, and will only listen to her if her advice makes sense to him.

It's quite possible she doesn't believe all of what she's saying...the part about some species not wanting to answer a knock on their door, she means. The part about Vulcans not being curious, not wanting to explore? She has to know better, and therefore (unless I return to my cheap plot device theory) she's lying in what she believes is a justifiable cause.

ANOTHER good point, Vick!
MindyP51 -- 5 Oct 2001, 22:29 GMT

You know, I love how comfortable I am when I put on my spandex gym gear, which is, let's face it, the same stuff and the same look as the catsuit. I'd wear it to work if I could.

Though I do wear my Nikes with it. :-)


I wondered that too, Nina
Jules -- 5 Oct 2001, 22:59 GMT

From what I've gathered, it sounds like she might have been laying on the Vulcan discouragement rather thick. Since Archer sounds like a difficult man to manage, maybe she thought a barefaced lie would be more effective (and therefore more logical) than appealing to him with a reasoned argument? A dumb strategy, obviously, because he's a Starfleet Hero, but she's still learning the ropes of how best to manage the pesky humans right now.

And we do know that Vulcans can lie, after all, whatever their feelings about the value of exploration might really be. They've been trying to pull the wool over the eyes of the galaxy with that "Vulcans don't get emotional" line ever since first contact. With anyone. ;-)

I'll let you know what I think when I actually see it.


T'Pring was a great Vulcan.
Ginny -- 5 Oct 2001, 23:07 GMT

So coldly, calmly unemotional as she outlined to Spock her plan to essentially ruin the lives of two comrades in arms, so that she could have what she wanted.

I knew that half-Romulan thing would come up sooner or later, when I mentioned Saavik the other day
Jules -- 5 Oct 2001, 23:21 GMT

So I looked it up. :-)

In my handy-dandy but slightly long in the tooth copy of the Star Trek Encyclopedia, which like Mike's is getting a few outings just recently. Since Saavik hasn't been seen again since that edition was published (1997), I think it can probably be taken as a fairly authoritative source of information in this case...

The entry for Saavik describes her as "a Vulcan", and then adds the following as a footnote:

"The script for Star Trek II contained a line that would have suggested Saavik was half-Vulcan and half-Romulan, but the line was cut, and later films seemed to assume that she was pure Vulcan."

So, it's never been mentioned on screen that she was half-Romulan, although I guess that any number of the novels may have done so... or not, as the case may be. Depends on what you count as canon, but in any case it raises a question mark about the matter, so any differences in Saavik's behaviour to that "Vulcan norm" (whatever it may be) can't really be easily written off to "she's half Romulan, so what can you expect?"

I'm with Vickie; I think it's silly to try to categorise a whole alien race based on a passably good knowledge of one half-breed (Spock) and one curmudgeon (Tuvok), and brief glimpses of a handful of others. From the little we've seen of their interactions with others of their race, neither one of them was particularly typical.

And who's to say that T'Pol is typical either? Just the fact that she's hanging out with humans makes her exceptional.

And I really rather hope that she's nothing like T'Pring. ;-)


Even T'Pol does not know that.
Terry -- 6 Oct 2001, 00:00 GMT

For different reasons, of course.

You Are SOOOOOOOO Mike ???? :-)
Mike -- 6 Oct 2001, 00:43 GMT

I give up. What does that mean? At least I'm not soooooooooo bad ;-).

Is that an agree or disagree?

Soooooo Mike :-)

LOL, Terry. That reminds me of a Dolly Parton joke.
Vickie -- 6 Oct 2001, 00:50 GMT

Why are Dolly's feet so small?

Nothing grows well in the shade!

Badda Boom.



T'Pol the shoe-in (GI)
Jason -- 6 Oct 2001, 01:04 GMT

Looks to me like she's wearing the same kind of lifts as Janeway or Torres, not quite the stilettos of Seven of Nine or Kira. Take a look for yourself.

[picture of T'Pol was included here]

I concur
Jules -- 6 Oct 2001, 01:14 GMT

There are two full length shots of her in this month's Star Trek Magazine. The shoes she's wearing look reasonably practical for everyday use, but do seem to have about an inch to an inch and a half of fairly broad heel. No neckbreaking stuff, anyway. ;-)


I saw this picture in EW, and all I could think was...
Ginny -- 6 Oct 2001, 02:09 GMT

...are they *trying* to make her look like a freak? Ugly costume, ridiculous pose, and her lips appear to be the size of a small country. Not that there's anything wrong with full lips, but, I swear, that photo makes them look like they take up a full quarter of her face.

At least she has sensible shoes.

Some of us like freaks! :cool:
Jason -- 6 Oct 2001, 03:56 GMT

I had the opposite reaction. I admit I kinda like the Trek promotional shots where the characters look so unusual or out of the ordinary. I think it dates back to some of the early TOS promotional shots which really underscored the heroic, spaceman quality to the early characters.

If I ran into T'Pol in real life and she were posed like that, would I be interested? Well, maybe not, but I think she looks pretty out-of-this-world there.

As for her costume... I'm one of the few who doesn't have any complaints, it seems, and although there could probably be some improvement I don't think that it looks *horrible* by any means.


Actually, hers are lower...
D'Alaire -- 6 Oct 2001, 11:34 GMT

...and more block-shaped, though, yes, there is a bit more tread. (Frankly, they remind me of those Yugly clod boots on clearance at Target. I'm sure they're probably comfortable, but they'd likely make my feet look like a size 18 E.)

Both Janeway's and B'Elanna shoes had slightly slimmer and higher heels. Then again, from what pics I've seen, Blalock doesn't need as much, er, lift.

And for the pic...well, I wouldn't say it's the best that could have been, but it does look a little familiar. :rolleyes: ;) Actually, among the promo pics I've clipped, the pose and expression, and even the overemphasized mouth, is almost exactly the same as one of the 7/9 shots. I'll have to find that one. It's almost creepy--though not surprising--the likeness.

But gah, that wig's just awful. If anything should have taken off of TOS fashion, it should have been the Vulcan hairstyle[s]--and what conversations could have come out of that! ;) Though, I would have liked something at least near to their clothes, too. The Vulcan men in BB, after all, weren't wearing bodysuits....

No wonder T'Pol's out of sorts. She must be cold, the poor little dear. ;)

To be honest, I think it looks better than Seven's did.
Jules -- 6 Oct 2001, 14:21 GMT

I like the pattern, and the suggestion of wrapover in the neckline gives it a slightly Vulcan hint. I'm not so sure about the empire line strip just below her breasts; I think that may be a little too much... but it's not quite as figure-hugging as Seven's costumes were. More a close fitting bodysuit than a clingy catsuit.

It seems to be what she wears around the ship. When she goes out, she puts her coat on. :-) Or at least, at the beginning of "Broken Bow" when they were observing the injured Klingon, she was wearing a wrap jacket over the outfit, and she wore one again when they left the ship. That, and the fact that the whole crew changed from their standard uniform into tougher and less fancy outfits to go on an away mission, was one detail that I really liked. The previous crews have mostly just beamed down in their standard uniforms, whatever the environment might be. This - having different gear for different environmental conditions - makes a lot more sense.

As for the wig... well, it's a bit flat. But it's better than the first one they put on Kes, which was very harsh and clumpy... it took them the best part of a season to soften it down. Maybe this one will change too; they do seem to keep tweaking the hair and makeup as a show goes along.


Re: FIGHT OR FLIGHT Discussion --better late than never!
AC -- 7 Oct 2001, 19:25 GMT

Once again I had to wait until last night to watch this episode because I thought it was on Wednesday at 9, and so missed the first 15 minutes.

Overall, I enjoyed it very much. It isn't blowing me away the way the best of Voyager did yet, but I'm willing to stick around and see. And despite the stereotypical "screamer woman" that Hoshi's been so far, I do like her character. Maybe it's just something about the actress, but she's quite appealing.

Like Vickie, I had to yell, "WHAT?" at the screen when they transplanted the slug from one planet to another. Mess with the ecosystems much, guys? They'd have done best to leave it where it was or feed it to Phlox's bat. And if Phlox was doing all the comparison's between Hoshi & the slug, what does his suggestion to use the slug as food imply? ;)

Oddly enough, Hoshi's transferring quarters didn't seem all that bad to me -- she'd identified a problem, made arrangements to fix it, and then informed the captain. Now if she'd informed him AFTER she and Mayweather switched, that would have been bad.

Malcolm Reed is just cool. I like him.

Dang, that Porthos is cute. They must have hidden doggie treats all over Bakula's uniform, the beagle was so perky.

Maybe I'll have further insight later, but for now, I'm being paged...


Hoshi's transfer of quarters
Sherry -- 8 Oct 2001, 18:34 GMT

I agree with you--I thought, too, that she was handling it well. She came to the captain for permission to transfer quarters before she moved. Like you say, it would have been a real problem if she had come to "inform" him after moving, or if she'd just come moaning about her problem and expecting him to work things out.

And I like Porthos, too! I'd almost forgotten how cheery beagles can be.


:agree: re Hoshi's quarters.
Janeway216 -- 8 Oct 2001, 20:47 GMT

I know a lot of people didn't like it because it made her seem a little . . . what's the word, not suited for space?

I think it just makes her more human. I know that if I were used to the stars going one way when I was on board, and suddenly they were going another way, I'd be somewhat disoriented. As a matter of fact, I picked the side of my dorm room that I did, subconsciously, because the window, my bed, and my alarm clock are laid out the same way here as they are at home.

And as you said, AC, she handled it very well. On her own initiative, she found someone that would switch with her, and she went to the captain to ask permission. She didn't take matters into her own hands, and she didn't whine that much.

So far, this gal's my favorite.


I sort of figured...
D'Alaire -- 8 Oct 2001, 22:51 GMT

...when the scene first played (or at least I expected her to mention), that it was because of her acute hearing--the different noises would be unsettling.

Or was that mentioned already?

Either way, I agree with AC and J216, too. It didn't bother me at all, only let me know that 1) she's responsible; 2) she's honest, doesn't back down from how she feels; 3) she can work a problem out--efficiently, whenever possible.

Definitely my favorite here, too.

I thought it was odd to go to the captain...
Malcom -- 9 Oct 2001, 01:54 GMT

for such a request. Isn't that what the XO is for? Or is Archer a micromanager?

Re: Micro manager? ;-)
Deb47 -- 9 Oct 2001, 02:46 GMT


No. I won't "go" there.



Does Archer really "have" an XO?

T'Pol acts like his second, but isn't she technically "just" the science officer?

Perhaps with only a crew of 70, he's chief cook and bottlewasher.

I agree with the posts above. Her "can't sleep/stars on the wrong side" complaint was no big deal. Made me think of those people that can't ride the subway/railcar sitting in the backwards facing seat without motion sickness.

As I predicted in the premiere... she's my fav of the show.

Well, although Porthos was cute last week.


I don't think there is an XO...
SuzyQ -- 9 Oct 2001, 03:05 GMT

...on board Enterprise at this point. At least, not what we think of an XO (i.e. the second-in-command that handles all the personnel issues). We're not used to seeing a captain deal with the small stuff. But, this is before the crew complement grew quite large and the Enterprise earned it's enormous reputation as the Flagship of Starfleet.

No, I don't think T'Pol would be put in the position of handling personal crew issues. It's a primarily human crew, after all. Even Archer could see it would rather inappropriate to put her in that position.

BTW, what is the chain of command on ENTERPRISE? Is this it for our cast?...

1) Captain Jonathan Archer 2) Sub-Commander T'Pol 3) Chief Engineer Charles "Trip" Tucker III 4) Dr. Phlox 5) Lt. Malcom Reed, Munitions Expert 6) Ensign Hoshi Sato & Ensign Travis Mayweather


Re: I don't think there is an XO...
Vickie -- 9 Oct 2001, 13:48 GMT

SuzyQ asked:

BTW, what is the chain of command on ENTERPRISE? Is this it for our cast?...

1) Captain Jonathan Archer 2) Sub-Commander T'Pol 3) Chief Engineer Charles "Trip" Tucker III 4) Dr. Phlox 5) Lt. Malcom Reed, Munitions Expert 6) Ensign Hoshi Sato & Ensign Travis Mayweather

I think Dr. Phlox doesn't fit into the chain of command at all, but otherwise that ranking makes sense.

I also think there are some holes in the command structure because Enterprise left Earth several months before they intended to. (That's my story and I'm stickin' to it. :-) ) I'm guessing that T'Pol's position of Science Officer and defacto second in command might have been filled by someone more "suitable" as an XO if the ship hadn't departed so abruptly and been saddled with a Vulcan observer/guide.


#1, #2 and #3 are definitely right.
Jules -- 9 Oct 2001, 18:16 GMT

In "Broken Bow", during the period that Archer was incapacitated after he was shot, T'Pol told Trip Tucker that she outranked him... thereby implying that he'd have assumed command in Archer's absence if she hadn't.

But, since his primary duties on the ship are as Chief Engineer, I don't see him doing the personnel evaluations. :-) And I really don't see that T'Pol, whose status on the ship is presumably that of an officer of a different organisation on loan/attachment, would be doing it, even if she has more or less been fitted into the command structure.

And I'm with Vickie... I don't think that Dr Phlox fits into the chain of command at all right now. Like T'Pol, he's on attachment; unlike her he's medical rather than military.

So I'd promote Malcolm Reed up to number #4. I suspect, however, that Travis Mayweather and Hoshi Sato's importance as principles is that they are ensigns who have jobs that are critical to the ship - flying it and translating for the aliens they meet - rather than anything in the rank pecking order. There may well be a few other lieutenants floating around that we haven't met yet who outrank them.


Okay, I saw FIGHT OR FLIGHT last night.
Mindy -- 8 Oct 2001, 13:56 GMT

Posted this under a new thread 'cause the old one was so long, and I don't want any of you to miss my words of wisdom! :-) :rolleyes: ;-)

I thought it was, frankly, excellent, and I also think Hoshi is going to be a breakout character, as they say in Hollywood. She was presented in a very well-rounded way...even the fact that she screamed, and was ashamed/pissed off at herself ("I screamed like a twelve year old") was handled beautifully...I am a little unclear on her linguistic ability...I'm not sure how she was able to talk to the Axanar ship without the computer, although I guess she was "studying" the language off-screen? But she is supposed to be gifted when it comes to languages, right? So that would mean she is able to pick it up very quickly? (Unlike me, who is near to tone-deaf when it comes to learning other languages.)

My only nit, and, frankly, it is a large one, so maybe it is a complaint and not a nit, is T'Pol's statement about Vulcans not interesting in exploration, etc., which we've already discussed. That statement just doesn't make sense to me at all.

On a positive point, Blalock does seem to be getting a command of her Vulcan character.

Oh, and I am a member of the Tripp club. Did I mention that?


Correction: T'Pol said Vulcans are not as enthusiastic
Terry -- 8 Oct 2001, 17:28 GMT

about exploration as humans. And that they don't explore by picking what piques their interest. This is hardly saying, "We don't explore."

Saying Vulcans aren't enthusiastic is only logical as they have no emotions. ;-). And I imagine that what they choose to explore is determined by logic, not personal curiosity.