The Coffee Nebula Board is for the discussion of Star Trek: Voyager and other sci-fi/cult shows. This is its Archive of episode discussions, top ten lists, fan fiction, and other miscellaneous musings.


Broken Bow

Saw Enterprise tonight and... (no spoilers)
Vicki :) -- 26 Sep 2001, 04:38 GMT

...I liked it! :D

It was a fun premiere episode and it seems like it will be an interesting crew. I look forward to getting to know them all better.

The only thing that threw me was the opening theme. It was visually appealing but...but...oh you'll see (or rather, hear).

I look forward to reading the opinions of everyone here from my customary comfy little lurker chair.

Vicki :)

Good to hear you say so, Vicki.
Jules -- 26 Sep 2001, 13:14 GMT

I see that Canada's still keeping up its tradition of sneaking the episodes in a day or two early. :-)


:tv: BROKEN BOW (Series Premiere) Discussion Thread
SuzyQ -- 26 Sep 2001, 23:38 GMT

...As promised, herewith is the starting point undereth which reviews regarding the series premiere of ENTERPRISE are to be listed. On past boards, it's been easier to archive reviews if they can be found in the same thread. Your cooperation is entirely voluntary, but completely appreciated if you decide to comply. If you do not comply, you will be assimilated. (Ooops! Sorry! Residual VOYAGER humor still in the loop.)

I'm not sure which icon to use for discussion threads. So, I'll just use the least offensive for now.

Go to it, Nebulites! You people are the most prolific writers I've met.


5 minutes in and already some gripes.
Janeway216 -- 27 Sep 2001, 01:06 GMT

Number one: Whatever that was, it wasn't Broken Bow, Oklahoma. Broken Bow is in the Ouachita Mountains and there's no way in hell you could fit a big-ass cornfield like that in there.

Number two: Credits drive me crazy.

More later.


Theme music was bland.
Terry -- 27 Sep 2001, 01:27 GMT

Not terrible but I predict it will become tiresome over time.

I like the rest so far. Cochrane's speech was a very nice touch.

Psst! SuzyQ!
Jules -- 27 Sep 2001, 01:32 GMT

I've done a bit of icon substitution at the head of the thread.

Okay, so :tv: isn't necessarily my final offering, but if I get the chance to come up with a better icon later, I can always swap them over.

Handy hints for icon usage: to do this one you need to type ":tv:" and then leave a space on either side of it so that the board picks it up as a separate "word" and swaps it for the icon.

I'm now off to bed. I look forward to hearing what you all thought about the episode in the morning.


Re: Theme music was bland.
Mrs. Mac -- 27 Sep 2001, 01:33 GMT

I agree Terry. I'm not very impressed with the theme song. It started off okay and then I didn't understand what the singer was saying.

Mrs. Mac

Me too.
D'Alaire -- 27 Sep 2001, 01:52 GMT

It didn't feel right. I'm all for difference, and all, but it doesn't take me anywhere.

Sofar, I'm not much for T'Pol (out to lunch on Archer), and the intro material hasn't grabbed me. I do like Hoshi and Phlox's characters thus far, and it's getting more interesting as the plot starts to move. Dang, but T'Pol just...downs me, somehow. She's...flat. Maybe this is how Vulcans will be back then. (shrug)

Ah well. I had a feeling even the premiere wasn't going to sell me on the whole, especially with the characters. We'll see how the rest goes. :)

Halfway - The widescreen is nice.
Terry -- 27 Sep 2001, 02:12 GMT

I think T'Pol could work out as a nice character. The character is a little ... awkward right now but I can see the potential. Likewise with Trip.

I agree, D'A, I like Phlox more than I expected. He's not as Neelix as I'd been lead to believe. And Hoshi is a pleasant surprise.

I don't see too much in the Brit and the ensign who grew up in cargo ships to this point.

I'm not sure about Archer yet. Too many flashbacks.

I like the look and the action. That Washington Post criticized the FX but mostly I like that they're not dominating the show.

Well, I've seen exactly five minutes
Ruth -- 27 Sep 2001, 02:29 GMT

and all I can say is, they've had one guy shirtless and greased up and then they had Bakula run around in his underwear.

Man, I love this show!

There was even a beagle. I love beagles! I wonder if he's trained to rip Archer's clothes off in case there is an emergency and they become too confining?

Ruth, who had to miss the first hour, but is hoping to catch more semi-nudity on the Sunday night re-run!

PS -- Kewl Buffy commercials!

Re: :tv: BROKEN BOW (Series Premiere)
AChampagne -- 27 Sep 2001, 02:44 GMT

I only got to see the first half. I promised my finacee that if he let me watch half he could watch Junkyard Wars at nine. So my opinon is based solely on that first hour.

T'Pol is really annoying. Not only is her condescending attitude seriously irksome, but everytime I look at her I see a Seven of Nine wannbe with an over exaggerated pout. And if I didn't know better I would swear that TPTB were reading these posts and gave her that hairstyle to win the Eric pixie vote!

Archer isn't bad. I like the linguist who's a little scared, and Flox is fun. He reminds me of a doctor I knew. He had that same endlessly cheerful attitude, especially given that he was always dealing with pretty depressing or gruesome stuff all the time (he was a pathologist). Alright that's all I can say having not seen all of it.


BROKEN BOW (Series Premiere) Discussion Thread
Mrs. Mac -- 27 Sep 2001, 02:59 GMT

There are more important things for me to do right now, like go to bed!

My first, brief impressions are: 1) So so theme music. 2) No real opinion on the doctor yet. 3) t'Pal is t'terrific! 4) Special effects were nice. 5) I enjoyed the premiere very music.

6) Did anyone feel like the laser fight scenes were right out of the Voyager Elite game?

Mrs. Mac

Fifteen minutes to go; and some quick comments.
Janeway216 -- 27 Sep 2001, 03:00 GMT

Thoughts on the characters:

Archer -- I like him, but I still can't shake the feeling that Al is going to show up any moment.

T'Pol -- Drives me nuts.

Hoshi (I can't remember her other name) -- A bit shrill, but still cool. And Eric's right: she wins the Pixie Award hands down.

Mayweather, Tucker, and the Brit -- haven't made much of an impression yet.

Dr. Phlox -- Drives me nuts! He's worse than Neelix!

Otherwise . . . I really like the sets and uniforms. The uniforms are better than anything that has come before, and they're what Trek uniforms should have looked like all along. I like the ship too, and whatever FX house they have doing the graphics are good.

This is much better writing than I would have expected out of B&B . . . but then again, this is their baby, and I guess they can be a little more consistent with the rules if they're in charge from the beginning. I still think that Braga took the wrong approach trying to mold Voyager more to his vision after Jeri Taylor left, rather than stick to her ideas -- she helped created the show, after all.

And excuse me, I've got to enthuse for a moment: PUPPYYY!!!!!!! That is one of the most adorable damn dogs I've ever seen!

All in all, I think I'll stick with Enterprise for a few more episodes anyway.


I cut a deal with my parents.
Janeway216 -- 27 Sep 2001, 03:02 GMT

They taped "My Wife and Kids" and "Junkyard Wars" for me; I taped "Enterprise" for them.

We can get away with stuff like that now because I'm at college and have a separate TV and VCR :-). I had some transmission problems, though, so I may have to catch the rebroadcast.


BROKEN BOW was a good start.
Terry -- 27 Sep 2001, 03:18 GMT


  • The basic concept of basing it in pre-Federation times.
  • The dynamic between Archer and T'Pol.
  • Widescreen format.
  • Less technobabble. And what there was made more common sense than usual.
  • Less tech is more. Interesting, that is.
  • Smaller crew. Only a couple less than Voyager but that is an improvement.
  • T'Pol's assets weren't as emphasized by the cinematography as early Seven was. (Except for the oil-rubbing scene. :-))
  • Hoshi. The least stereotypical and best acted character so far.
  • Trip. Needs work but he's interesting. I hope he avoids the Bones comparison.
  • Phlox. I like what I've seen of him so far.
  • Action. The humans (and even the Vulcan) are neither fighting machines or klutzes. They struggle. I liked how Archer couldn't just shrug off the leg wound. Likewise, the Enterprise's armor was more effective than its weapons.
  • Dog.


  • Dog was rather passive.
  • Oil-rubbing scene was rather tame yet totally gratuitous. It meant nothing plot-wise.
  • Temporal "cold" war. In what way, cold?
  • We never saw T'Pol change her mind about going back for Archer. Why did she?
  • "What did he say?" "You don't know?" Yes, I do unless Braga couldn't think of anything and was faking it.
  • The pilot seems a little too Harry Kim. Hope he finds his Tom Paris side.


  • How or why the Klingons were upset by Enterprise bringing their man back?
  • How are the Vulcans holding humanity back? It sounds like they're giving humans technical information but not everything they want when they want it. That's help, not hindrance.

:eek: should make for interesting viewing
tragic fan -- 27 Sep 2001, 03:37 GMT

when I get to see this with a couple of dozen Bakula fans in a few months!


(who's lapping up everyone's comments and wishing she wasn't stuck at work)

That's what I was thinking by the end, re: T'Pol
D'Alaire -- 27 Sep 2001, 03:42 GMT

(Yeah, I taped TWW and watched a bit of a scratchier ENT on the normal TV. I can tape on Saturday, when I have time to fuss with the antenna.)

T'Pol reminds me very much like 7/9 with ears attached. The mannerisms and the way she hold herself are just too similar. Sorry to say (since I really like Vulcans), I'm not very impressed.

I think I'm going to have to warm to Archer--I do enjoy Bakula a lot, and I like Archer's directness. but there's something old in it all that I can't puzzle out. He does win big points for the pup, though. :agree:

But as Terry said, the characters are still fresh. I'm willing to give them time.

I do like Hoshi Sato. She's interesting, well-played and a true talent. Plus she does nervous very well. Yep. She was the one character I thought I'd like. I do like Phlox a lot--and that was a nice surprise. "Eventually." LOL! Nice, indeed. :) The other cast are okay, but no real breakout people. That was a little disappointing, but I wasn't expecting it, so I'm not turned off.

The FX are truly great, but after a while, I admit, I was starting to get bored with it and the guns and suspense stuff, and wanted more (read deeper) characterization. I guess I'll have to wait a while longer for that, if it does come. I hope it does, but being ever cautious and having read what I have concerning themes &c., I'm not going to put too much stock in that direction. I can only hope to be pleasantly surprised.

Other impressions: The Suliban were sorta neat. But why do they remind me of the Founders--not just for looks? Odd.

Dang right, whoever said it: Beagles Rock! :)

TPTB can now say "ass" and "butt" and it'll be in character/timeline to do so. I'm sure they're thrilled. :P

Did someone wipe up the drool of Eric's hoping Hoshi would get a yummy oil-up the next go-round? (Insert image of Eric's tape melting into goo after he replays it oooover and oooover) :P

I've decided I don't really get into the theme song, as theme songs go, it that's going to be it for the whole series. Something about it just doesn't fit with me. Or maybe because it reminds me of a teenage drama. (shrug) Ah well. At least it's not grating.

So, overall, I can say I liked it. It didn't strike me the way I like to be struck by characters and plots, but I enjoyed trying to clear my mind of what I knew and get into their "new" situation.

In short: I'll be there next week. :) Maybe I'll have a better impression of this one, too, after Saturday.

Also: Neato TV graphic, Jules! I like a lot! 8)

I usually try not to take the low road, but...
Ginny -- 27 Sep 2001, 03:43 GMT

...even though the decontamination scene was totally and unapologetically gratuitous, I liked it. T'Pol and Trip look pretty damn good together, half-naked and coated with KY jelly. 8)

Anyhoo, here's are my preliminary reactions:

--Capt. Archer is pretty agreeable, but I keep expecting someone to call him Sam. And what is this compulsion he has for working the word "ass" or some variation thereon into all his conversations?

--T'Pol was a little hard to take, at first, but she grew on me. And she was far and away the best Vulcan on the show. I didn't realize what a high standard Nimoy and Lenard had set, until I saw all the Vulcan wannabees at the beginning of Broken Bow.

--Trip's already my favorite. Maybe it's the way his southern accent (which I can't quite place) ranges all over the place when he becomes agitated, or the fact that he seems like a really good (if not necessarily brilliant) guy, or how extraordinarily well nudity becomes him (always a plus), but he and T'Pol were the most fun to watch. And they do seem to get up into each other's faces at the drop of a hat, don't they? Hmmmm...

--I loved all the TOS touches on the ship.

--I hated the theme song. Bland, bland, bland.

--Speaking of things I hated, T'Pol's outfit is just appalling...bad color, worse design. And her wig is too flat on top.


I wasn't that fond of the decontam scene.
Janeway216 -- 27 Sep 2001, 03:57 GMT

For one, I'm a fan of pretty tight storytelling, where every scene contributes something to the plot. It's part of the reason I like J.K. Rowling's books: everything comes back to haunt you sooner or later.

This was pure fluffy eye candy. They like maybe tried to discuss the plot, but it wasn't anything we didn't know already. Plus, yeah, I'll admit Trip is buff, but did he get all the sexy shots? No, Jolene Blalock did. And get a clue, UPN: a lot more of your audience than you think is female, and I personally have no sexual interest in Jolene Blalock. I was more grossed out than anything.


Well I guess I'm not just a Voyager fan anymore....
Voyager Fan -- 27 Sep 2001, 04:03 GMT

Now I'm a full fledged Trekker or Trekkie (I forget which is the PC term). I really enjoyed the pilot.

T'Pau's lips bugged the heck out of me though. I couldn't figure out if she was just pushing them forward or if they'd been injected with something or what. Her character was very 7 of 9 too, not very original. But I did like 7 and I liked T'Pau by the end of the episode too.

And I liked Archer too, he just seemed like a cool regular guy. Janeway will always be the #1 Captain though.

I liked the overall feel of the episode. The pipes all over the place on the bridge. The way the ship looked like a warehouse instead of a 4 star hotel. The little starfish thingy that healed Archer's wound. The way the crew just doesn't take anything for granted.

I never thought this pre-Kirk thing would work, but I like it. I never thought I'd be interested in a space ship that Janeway didn't captain, but I am.

Looking forward to the next episode!!


Broken and Unbowled Over
david g -- 27 Sep 2001, 04:11 GMT

There were some good moments here and there...some fresh, take-you-by-surprise, inventive moments.

But generally, ENT's premiere left me quite cold.

I watch Trek because of its uniqueness, its strangeness, its stylization, its differentness...i love TOS and VOY because they are such departures from standard fare. (will i lose all cred if i tell you i also love TAS?)

but ENT, with its widescreen everyshow Must-See-TV feel is far too ordinary to warrant much attention. Ordinary, yet confusing, i think, to the majority of viewers. i was both confused and bored throughout much of the premiere.

I loved the teaser; it was unusual and scary...the Suliban made a great entrance...but i quickly grew bored of their morph-CGI look, because as a species they just dont seem that interesting. actually, theyre a lot like Kazon (who had their charms)--an "inferior" race devilishly assisted by a higher one.

The cast is undistinguished...starting with Bakula. Bakula's innate smugness has never been more nakedly displayed here. I predict 7 years of watching Bak get away with sh-- Janeway still hasnt been exonerated for.

Blalock may be interesting, though her voice lacks depth and command.

The rest of the cast is bland, though I like Hoshi well enough (though she has a great scream, im afraid she'll become the screamer), and the good ol' boy Mayweather, though undistinguished looking, has a deliciously tactile and erotic scene with T'Pol...but that's as far as tingles go.

Phlox appears to be a Neelix with less makeup. I think i may grow fond of Dominic Keating...if i last long enough to find out.

This antiTrek...well, maybe im jsut one of those fuddyduddies resistant to change. But I think Trek has fatally sold out. The DROM premiere, for all its clunkiness, had more heart and soul than this one.

Now, who knows? This may turn out to be a great show, one i adore. But not yet, by any stretch.

david g

I agree that it was eye candy, 216, but that's okay.
Ginny -- 27 Sep 2001, 04:17 GMT

It was still more equal opportunity eye candy than we *ever* got on Voyager. 8) And I kind of like the fact that there were no lascivious looks or smarmy lines in the scene. T'Pol and Trip carried on a heated, but not sexual, conversation all the time they were rubbing each other with the decontamination gel, as though they were accustomed to the semi-nudity of the decontamination procedure, which one would expect with people who have been trained for space travel.

Favorite character: Beagle, Cutest character; Beagle(NIM)
Monday -- 27 Sep 2001, 06:08 GMT

I didn't care for Archer, either
Ballinda -- 27 Sep 2001, 06:10 GMT

He seemed to run around the whole show shouting at everyone in place of acting-- i.e. Al Pacino in Heat. He didn't seem all that charismatic to me, but unsurprisingly, the Janeway bashers already love him. Can you imagine the heat she'd get if she'd gone around "bellowing" all episode?

Janey -- 27 Sep 2001, 06:20 GMT

Who got widescreen? Everyone but me? Well my station was going funky a lot so who knows?

Well it didn't bowl me over with excitement like Caretaker did. But I can't decide if that is because I am having loyalty issues or what. All I know is 10 minutes into Caretaker I was hooked for life. Ten minutes into Broken Bow I was still trying to figure out how I can get rid of the words to the theme song.

Notes on the theme: I liked the pictures. get rid of the words. Pep up the instrumental. Get me excited. TNG music still gets me excited all these years later. Voyager music gives me a chill and a tear EVERY time. Music is key. Enterprise's music couldn't fit in the lock.


Archer: jury's out. He's the kind of guy I'd want to go havea few beers with but I'm not sure I'm ready to have him making life or death decisions for me. Doesn't have that imidiate "trust me" appeal. I'm not sure of that is a good thing for a captain.

T'Pol: She annoyed me. I liked her. She irritated me. She grew on me. Jury's out on ehr too.

Trip: On the shallow end, WHAT A CHEST! From a more 'enlightened' point of view, he should be pretty dang cool.

Hoshi: I have a feeling she is going to be wonderful as long as they don't continually play "protect the little woman." I hope they fulfill Linda Park's wish to have a be a little fighter.

Maryweather: Pilot, right? That womb/zero-g scene had me screaming "Harry Kim!!!!" But what a smile!!! He's my new crush.

Dr. Phlox: He cracked me up. But then I loved Neelix and I have loved every Star Trek Doc so I am not surprised I liked him. He's going to be good for Archer.

Reed: No where near enough info to make any sort of opinion. Seems like a good tactical officer.

Decontamination scene: eh. Pointless. Sole redeeming factor: duel eye candy. And that is sad.

The kissing scene: dumb. Sarin HAD to kiss him. That was dumb.

Favorite scenes: T'Pol thanking Hoshi in Vulcan. Hoshi trying to figure out Klingon. Maryweather's sweet spot scene (despite the womb reference). Maryweather's speed course for Trip about that shuttle thing. Archer's face when he realized he was beamed up. Everyone's smiles when they realized things were just getting started. Both Archer and T'Pol wanting her to stick around. The mention of Vulcan science officers being a "good idea" - a nice nod to the original.

I think Maryweather and Trip could be a great buddy team i.e. Harry and Tom, one episode and the parallels are frightening.

Query: Did Klang have the info or not? The Suliban guy said Sarin would have told Archer what she knew or whatever and that Klang didn't have it. But then what was all that stuff that was in Klang's blood?

I'm really bothered by the fact I can't remember any lines except one of Hoshi's: "Do you think we can ask for seatbelts when we get home?" or something to that effect. Which cracked me up.

I think I am going to like this show despite my lukewarm reaction. I see potential. I just wish I had more enthusiasm.

I gotta admit I didn't expect a beagle. That threw me. I was thinking German Shephard, Labrador, Doberman, Setter, Great Dane, etc. Something bigger, a little more rough and tumble for Archer. Don't get me wrong, Pothos is ADORABLE, but he's not my kind of dog and not what I expected for Archer. I'm hoping that means there will be more surprises.

I can imagine the heat Janeway'd get all too well. Archer is a Compassionate Conservative,
david g -- 27 Sep 2001, 06:53 GMT

which means he's much more of the latter than the former.

The Era of the Smirk has begun...Archer is to Dubya as....

david g

Haven't read the other posts yet, but am I in the minority? I LOVED the opening sequence!
Mindy -- 27 Sep 2001, 13:04 GMT

I thought it was WAY cool, following the history of man's exploration of "out there"...first it was across the ocean, and then it was the air, and now it is space.

I don't know that particular Rod Stewart song...I liked the music, but frankly, I couldn't understand the words...yet I still appreciated it. It is a signal that this ST show is going to be different, and I liked it.

I also like that shot of Earth with the logo beneath it.


Re: :tv: BROKEN BOW (Series Premiere) Discussion Thread
Mindy -- 27 Sep 2001, 13:25 GMT

I thought it was the best pilot of a STAR TREK show since WHERE NO MAN HAS GONE BEFORE!

The back story was set up very nicely, not just the intro of the Klingon(s) and the Suliban, but the state of Starfleet and its (and Earth's) relationship with the Vulcans. I think the way they have the Vulcans looking down on us is very apt...they don't dislike us, obviously, but they seem to be like strict schoolmasters in an old 18th or 19th century prep school or military academy...benevolent dictators, in a way, at least as far as Earth's space program is involved. It's telling that T'Pol told Trip that she got all the "entertainment" she needed at the Vulcan compound...indicating that at this point there is actually very little integration between the "Terrans" and the "Vulcans" beyond official things--though this could be an interesting story or subplot down the road.

I found the dialogue to be realistic and refreshing for a Star Trek show, with not too much "technobabble"; in fact, I thought they hit a nice balance...these people really do talk like "real people." I like seeing and hearing some attitude in the characters. It's the kind of thing that makes good shows, from BUFFY to THE PRACTICE.

Love the way the ship looks...enough like Enterprises to come, primitive enough to be believable. The set are great, period. Anyone notice that even the window in Archer's cabin isn't too big? That's a nice touch, indicating that the art of starship "building" is still in its infancy.

Thought the Cromwell/"Cochran" cameo/scene very nicely done, though I do wish they had done a close-up of the screen.

Okay, next post will be my thoughts on the characters.


Re: :tv: BROKEN BOW...Mindy's take on the characters
Mindy -- 27 Sep 2001, 14:03 GMT

Don't have all the names down yet, but I know their faces and their roles. But that's typical for me.

Archer: Well, you all know I'm a Scott Bakula fan. I think he's basically hit it, and that his "stride" is going to get better and better and more comfortable with each ensuing episode. Didn't see too much of his "softer" side tonight, but I'm sure that will come. And for some reason, I think he would get along very well with Janeway. In fact, my first impression is that he's a cross between Kirk and Janeway, nothing of Picard or Sisko in him (as of yet, of course.) Bakula handled the action scenes in a great way...loved that last fight scene at the climax, where, let's face it, he was basically running for his life when the transporter beamed him up. I thought the way he was caught in "mid-run" very nice, and his reaction when he realized that he had been beamed up was great--a combination of "huh?," fear, checking himself that he was all in one piece, and relief that he was back on board and safe.

T'Pol: Better than I thought, but I couldn't help thinking that Jeri Ryan would have nailed the Vulcan mannerisms much better. She seemed to express a little too much emotion at times...a couple of times I could have sworn I caught a glimmer of a smile. Of course, Vulcans aren't without emotions, they're just repressed, but given that she has stayed among her own kind, with only interactions with Star Fleet, I think she should be more stoic. Leonard Nimoy set the standard, and he set it incredibly high, due to his acting ability...Kirstie Alley and Kim Cattrell got it perfectly--Blalock is not there, though I thought the dialogue was right. As for the catsuit, well, it didn't bother me especially, though it still makes no sense that she would wear one, given what we know about Vulcan culture. But that's how they've decide to go, so live with it. I did find the "decontaminizing gel" scene gratuitous and silly and aggravating, and couldn't wait for it to be over...but I liked the dialogue between Trip and T'Pol that occurred.

Trip Merriweather: Like him a lot. Think he will be a real asset. Found myself drawn to him the way I was drawn to Dr. McCoy. Very relaxed with himself, knows who he is and what's he about.

Hoshi: Prettiest "pixie" yet! And I really like that, as the communications officer, she is a linguist and it shows. As I've said before, it's always aggravated me that Uhura was a Commander, and yet it was shown she didn't know Klingon??? I also like that she is not all that comfortable with being in space, though it makes sense that a linguist would want to be in Star Fleet, where s/he would be exposed to all different languages and cultures. I hope they continue to expand her abilities, because, as with Sanchez in THE SPARROW, a linguist also uses language to interpret the culture, and this could be a real asset in terms of storyline and characterization.

Phlox: Neelix comparisons are natural; he does have Neelix's jovialty and optimism, but he is his own character. I like that he is shown to be not just a doctor, but a true scientist/researcher, as expressed in his amazement/respect for the genetic engineering worked upon the Suliban, and the excitement that he had new mysteries to unwind.

"SpaceBoomer": Sorry, can't remember his name. Terry compared him to the "Kim" character on VOYAGER, but he seems more mature to me than Harry Kim, and certainly, due to his upbringing, way more used to being in space...not so "gosh, wow!". Again, I found him personable, though not yet well-defined...hope he doesn't become a Sulu/Chekov character, stuck behind the com console.

British Guy: Can't remember his name, either, but I'm always a sucker for the accent. Again, I liked what I saw, though it wasn't a lot.

All in all, this is a cast that could rapidly gel into a solid ensemble. This, of course, will depend on the scripts and the attention that Braga gives to his baby. If he ends up concentrating on the "Big Three," i.e., Archer, Trip and T'Pol, the show will suffer. If he can manage an ensemble cast, the show will shine.


LOL! Given the mixed reviews here and at TToday, I'm not rushing to watch the tape. BTW...
maggie the cat -- 27 Sep 2001, 14:12 GMT

it's really nice to be in the mood to make and laugh at Bush jokes again.

Nina's quick thoughts.
Nina -- 27 Sep 2001, 14:36 GMT

(This is a vacation? I've just updated my home page to show that "The Mad Fisherman's Daughter" is available for pre-orders. I'm going to lunch with Sis, I need to go to the bank and the grocery store, and I need to order books. So what am I doing? Surfing the Neb...)

Theme song: Loved it, and could make out all but one line of lyrics.

Archer: Fell in love when he told T'Pol how hard he was working not to knock her on her....

Dog: Cute, but out of place on a starship. Sorry. Kept wondering about his "take the pup out" arrangements. But it was fun to watch the little guy climb T'Pol's leg, just the same. :-)

T'Pol: Surprisingly, I think she's great. The actress can act (whew, I am really relieved), and I can all too easily imagine the Vulcans holding humans back from full participation in the star traveling universe until they deem us "ready." Which would be when we give up eating meat, repress our short, the Vulcans of this time period define "maturity" as "being just like us." Chuckle, and shiver. One nit: instead of making her look sexy, that catsuit makes this actress look anorexic.

Rest of cast: good start. Nit: no women ordinary crew members in evidence. I'm at a place in my viewing of SF where that jolts me. I guess they're keeping the back story about 21st Century wars and plagues making us females "too precious" for careers as mechanics and security ops; I wish they'd decided to lose it.

The decontamination scene: either their clothes protected the covered parts of their bodies, and the semi-nudity wasn't necessary; or their clothes did NOT protect them and they should have been bare-@ss. Make of this comment whatever you wish.

Gotta go!!! When do I ever find time to go to work????

Hoshi's Bow.....
Eric -- 27 Sep 2001, 14:36 GMT

My turn! Bottom Line with no SPOILERS : Not bad, in fact pretty damn good actualy! Not perfect but still good.

Where does it fit in with the other Trek pilots?

1) Voyager 2) Enterprise 3) DS9 4) TNG

As you can see the pilot doesn't always show what will happen!

SPOILERS BEGIN 10 9 Hoshi's 8 7 Hot Pants 6 5 Stole 4 3 The 2 1 Show

First we have the great Teaser, a VERY nice little set up. I loved the big bad Klingon getting shot by a farmer! But here is a question, what about all the redundent hardware inside huh? The gunshot did not look that bad!

But still it was a great setup and then we go into what is at once the 2nd best and worst opening credits of all time. (Sorry Farscape is still way out in front with it's 3rd season opening! )

I say BEST because the opening shots are just so wonderfuly done and i say WORST because that God Awful, shoot the singer now please God PLEASE song almost RUINS it!

The crew intro was the best with the Hoshi intro being best and NOT just becuase she looked yummy enough to eat in her Hot Pants (standard Pixie issue! ) but also because it showed some great Hoshi/Archer chemestry that i hope we see more of. I LOVED Archer bribing her to come along. Her fear of space travel made me think Ezri and that is only a good thing for Linda to strive for IMHO.

Like i said before Bakula is worth every penny. Already he is becoming a favorite Captain of mine and he is starting to heal the pain of Janeway!

Phlox is Neelix. Dear God he is Neelix.

Trip is ok. A little stiff but i think he will work out OK.

Reed is great! He didn't get much to do but i love a security guy who loves his guns! The challenge is to use him right like Odo and not make him a joke like Tuvok!

Mayweather is well....i don't know. In this one he really didn't do anything.

T'Pol is better then i expected but still not very Vulcany. I like the way she moves but her lines come out sounding like Seven's. It's damn annoying at times. And where is "Live long and prosper" or a Vulcan salute? I didn't like Tuvok but at least Tim Russ knew what the basics are!

So while the cast needs to shake down a little the first story was well done. I liked the final battle in the clouds, very TWOK looking at times and the cloud of ships was sweet!

Future Guy could be a great idea or just a cheap Braga time travel rehash, only *ahem* time will tell.

The end with T'Pol offering to stay was done nicley i just with the actress was able to pull it off better and that she was dressed for the occasion.

Maybe i'm just all catsuited out but that outfit looks horrible and she IS supposed to be in the Vulcan military. needs changes but what was there wasn't that bad.

I would give it a 7.5 but i'm also happy to get Star Trek back so i will give it a 8!


Well despite a sexy little nude scene with T'Pol....
Eric -- 27 Sep 2001, 14:39 GMT

....I still like Hoshi better! :p

NIM! ;)

I agree about the memorable lines, Janey. There weren't many. In fact...
Ginny -- 27 Sep 2001, 14:59 GMT

...that may be the weakest part of the pilot--no really "reach out and grab ya" lines, particularly funny lines. (Although I sense that Dr. Phlox's "Optimism, Captain!" is going to be a recurring phrase.) I realize TPTB had a lot to do in the pilot, but they need to lighten up a little, have some fun, and give us some classic ST wit. It looks like they're trying to recreate the classic Kirk-Spock-McCoy triangle with Archer-T'Pol-Trip, right down to T'Pol's position as science officer, Trip's southern accent, and his and T'Pol's tendency to snipe at each other. I, personally, don't mind this, at all, because I thought the K-S-M dynamic was the best thing about TOS, and if they're even half as successful in creating that kind of chemistry, it's a win-win for everyone.

I think only rewatching VOY will heal the pain of Archer, for me, Eric
david g -- 27 Sep 2001, 14:59 GMT

I agree with you about the Hoshi-Archer scene being dandy. I loved her linguistics lesson.

I know Im rushing to judgment, and I may eat my words (which i reserve the right to do), but i think i HATE Archer.

I really hate how his surly, xenophobic pseudo-swagger is now going to be held up to mighty acclaim and will get credit for saving Trek when Janeway constantly got slammed for being a fiercely independent-minded woman captain.

david g

Ive realized something about Trek...also about DROM"s Dylan Hunt
david g -- 27 Sep 2001, 15:03 GMT

The Captain provides the texture of the show.

Much to my shock, Ive become a fan of Sorbo's Dylan Hunt on DROM. Now there's someone who manages to be strong and commanding yet radiate sensitive decency. Plus he looks good barechested.

I like Picard ok, but he had a potential for dragginess that characterized the less successful aspects of the show...Still, Picard is a great captain, and Patrick Stewart justifiably adored.

Just didnt like Sisko. Barking, rote montonous rage, each line reading, every episode. BOR-ing.

There's gotta be something to the fact that my favorite captains are Kirk and Janeway. I think it's their heady confidence matched to their caring that i love.

I have a feeling that I really, really hate Archer.

david g

Maggie, that I just cant help doing...!
david g -- 27 Sep 2001, 15:07 GMT

Not to offend any of his supporters here...but Archer is so Dubyaesque he makes my skin crawl.

hows it going in your neck of the woods, Maggie?

david g

Human and Molluscan reaction to Enterprise
Malcom -- 27 Sep 2001, 15:36 GMT

I liked the opening credits, but loathed the song. I bet that'll be changed by next year.

The sets were flat and colorless. I was excited to be told that they would be more cramped and "submarine-like," but even on submarines they put some wood-look formica on the walls to make things more homey. I liked the fact that Bakula's quarters look more cramped and ship-like. I've always found the quarters on ALL the starships of previous series ludicrously large. But the sets were flat and colorless. At least Voyager had a lot of nifty coloured lights and bright colors on the uniforms.

Bakula didn't do a lot for me. He seemed stiff and seemed to smirk. Then again, the same could be said for Stewart, Brooks and Mulgrew as well, so I'll give him a chance.

I was offended that at one time or another, ALL the women appeared shrink-wrapped. The Vulcan's uniform is dreadful. And the gratuitous greasing scene was stupid. I have to confess that Fred, the clams and I were laughing out loud at Blalock's breasts in that scene. They're huge, gravity-defying (we were told in an earlier scene that the gravity is heavy in the ship, which makes her breasts' feat all the more impressive) and do not appear to move even in the shrink-wrap t-shirt which reveals that her high-beams are on. My first reaction was, don't point those things at me! Ludicrous. We laughed out loud.

And her character seemed like 7o9 warmed over.

I didn't see much of the humor I've always liked in Star Trek here. Too soon to tell.

I loved the dog. I could never understand that after all the effort to tell us Janeway loved dogs, that she didn't pick one up along the way.

Those are my first impressions.

I like the idea that he is FRIENDS with his crew!
Eric -- 27 Sep 2001, 16:11 GMT

I joke about him but i like the intellectual Picard and i loved the brooding Sisko but with the exception of Sisko's deep friendship with Dax they seemed a little standoffish to their crews.

Archer brings back the warmth of Kirk to his crew and i think that is only a positive thing IMHO.

I hear you about his racist attitude to T'Pol but i think they were making a point since we see him trying to throw off his anger to Vulcan's a VERY Star Trek message (and a damn good one to teach these days IMHO!!!!).

We will see in fact **I** may have to eat my words if Braga and Co drop the ball David!

But right now i have to be honest and say i like Archer MUCH more then Janeway!


How can you like Kirk but not Archer?
Eric -- 27 Sep 2001, 16:15 GMT

They are the SAME! :p

B&B have said this time and again that they were casting back to the Kirk mold for this new Captain and it SHOWS.

Trip and Archer being old friends with T'Pol a early adversary who turns into a friend over time.

It's the SAME! :D

We shall see over this first season if they are able to create a new Big Three and i hope they do. (Of course the Hoshi fan in me wants that to be the big FOUR!)


Blalock has Angelina Jole lips! :eek:
Eric -- 27 Sep 2001, 16:22 GMT

Those puppies are HUGE! :)

Her lips i mean..... ;)

And from the Decon scene she seems to be a "outtie". At least that's what i think was going on! I will have to watch it again (for purely research purposes i assure you). :p

When does Hoshi get to rub jelly on her lithe Pixie body damnit? :D


Well, hey... I agree with Eric
Fliteman -- 27 Sep 2001, 16:59 GMT

Spoilers below. If you want to be surprised by the show, click the BACK button now.

. . .

Okay. You asked for it.

Overall, my expectations were met. I liked this MUCH better than TNG's premier, altho I DO think there's lots of room for improvement. I thought Bakula did a pretty decent job, EXCEPT... he was a little too anti-Vulcan in the beginning, and a little too forgiving at the end... (IMHO.) T'Pol was... okay. Agreed Eric - I hate her outfit. I DID like the rub-down scene, however.

The doctor... I like him BETTER than I liked Neelix, at first anyway, but Neelix is still more familiar. The jury's still out on this one. The others were standard Trek characters, and again, Eric's right - Hoshi's pretty cute.

I thought Capt. Archer did something to irk the Klingons, which is why they hated us? I was surprised to see him leave their world without a fight. And disappointed.

I'm left wondering who Capt. Archer's friends are going to be. Picard had No. 1 and the Doctor, Kirk had Spock & Bones, Janeway had.. well, sorta Chakotay and Tuvok... Archer doesn't (or didn't) like T'Pol, was uncomfortable around the doctor, but seemed to fit okay with Hoshi and... the-guy-who's-being-Tom-Paris. Whatever his name is.

But like I said... it's what I expected. They're a little stiff right now, but trying on their characters for the first time - they'll grow into them over time.

I also liked the opening credits, and didn't even mind the music TOO much, but... I think I'd prefer some... I dunno... formal, Trek-type music. Heck, even a rock tune is fine, but singing... eh, I dunno.


This juror is still deliberating
Joyce H -- 27 Sep 2001, 17:24 GMT

But I will say this - I found T'Pol INTENSELY annoying! Haven't we been watching Star Trek for thirty years? Hey, guys, Vulcans don't act like that! Someone upthread used the term 'stoic' for what she needed more of, and that's dead on. What she IS doing, this sneering contemptuous thing, is so un-Vulcan. Her behavior is so similar to Seven's that it's almost embarrassing - I felt like a voyeur watching someone's sexual fantasy and wondering what in their past and upbringing gave them such an obsession for women who treat people like dirt.

I was also taken aback by Archer's mention of 'repressed emotions', and certainly hope they don't intend to follow that thread. WE know, from years of Trek watching, that Vulcans do have emotions, severely repressed, but the humans of this era do NOT know that - the dogma they've been fed and believe is that Vulcans simply don't HAVE emotions. Needling T'Pol about repression makes Archer seem silly and gauche.

I like Hoshi - like her reactions, "What was THAT?!" I think Phlox may look like Neelix but doesn't act like him - they've excised a lot of that overbearing ebullience. Didn't see enough of the other characters to form much of an opinion.

I thought the best bit of the episode was Archer's horrified reaction when he realized they'd used the transporter on him.

And just an aside - I was annoyed with some publication, might have been TV Guide, that called Blalock the 'breakout star' before the pilot aired. Scuse me? The FANS hadn't seen the show yet, let US decide who the Breakout Star is. Maybe it will be Blalock, though I admit I hope not; her entire character and presentation is so blatantly manipulative on the part of the producers, and such a worn retread of Seven that I'd like to think the fans are too smart to fall for it. But I won't be surprised if my hopes are not realized.


One quick comment
Sherry -- 27 Sep 2001, 17:34 GMT

That's a BEAGLE! :D

I only saw about half an hour--visiting relatives--but that was one thing I noticed. I approve of Archer's choice of dogs!

Huh? Isn't that the whole point?
Tim Holden -- 27 Sep 2001, 18:20 GMT

Archer is SUPPOSED to be "surly, xenophobic pseudo-swaggering"!!!! The whole point of there series is to show how mankind grows from the ashes of WW III to a spacefaring society. A bitter war is bound to leave one a tad surly and xenophobic!

The tolerant, multicultural and just Federation is just not existant yet. To demonstrate mankinds growth through meeting new cultures and being influenced by them you have to start with a captain is who is a total contrast to the prissy, uber PC captains of the 24th century. Look at the jump in attitude from Kirk to Picard. There has to be a similar jump from Archer to Kirk.

We will see a gradual evolution. We will hopefully see mankind grow up, come of age and evolve into a better species. God knows we could use that right now!


Clearly, I watched the wrong five minutes. :D
Joy -- 27 Sep 2001, 18:22 GMT

But, I'm reading enough here to make me look forward to the weekend showing.

Was the guy with the southern accent the one that was shirtless and greased up? I liked him. ;-)


Yup,that's the one. I'm looking forward to seeing more of him. 8)
Ginny -- 27 Sep 2001, 18:59 GMT

Trip's a likable character with the potential to become this series' version of Leonard McCoy...only with fewer clothes. ;-)

Well, *that* sounds promising. :-)
Jules -- 27 Sep 2001, 19:37 GMT

I take it Trip is the cute looking blond guy that I've seen in the shots of the crew? My eye honed in on him immediately, so it's good to hear that he shows promise as a character and an actor as well.

Equal opportunity eye candy? What will they think of next? I guess that Trek has just entered a new and more enlightened age (even if they've had to go back in time in order to do it. :-))


(Waiting for the bit of the shallow end of the pool on the other side of the Atlantic to start filling up. Serious comments about the show will have to wait until I've seen it.)

Archer seems to be friends with Hoshi and Trip....
Eric -- 27 Sep 2001, 19:47 GMT

He seems to have worked with them before or had been frineds with them for a long time.

I want some Archer/Hoshi backstory very much. The scene where he bribes her with a new languedge was easily my favorite part of the movie.


If you cruise around the net....
Eric -- 27 Sep 2001, 19:51 GMT will see that Hoshi has just as many if not MORE fans then T'Pol.

It seems that many Trek fans are like me, we hate having something rubbed in our faces!

Give me the fresh, honest sex appeal of Hoshi over the manufactored corporate approved look of T'Pol.


:agree: Alright!
Joy -- 27 Sep 2001, 20:31 GMT

As soon as I heard him speak, I thought "Leonard McCoy".

I'm looking forward to seeing more of him, too. (She said. Innocently. :P)

I suppose five minutes of viewing is too little to start a Tripoholics chapter.


First Impressions
D -- 27 Sep 2001, 20:49 GMT

Not bad, but it didn't grab me the way "Caretaker" did.

I just didn't think T'Pol was Vulcan enough. The catch phrases were there, but something was off. I like the linguist being a reluctant space traveler, not the usual Fleeter who enlists because of the lure of space travel.

Likes: The uniforms have pockets :). It never made sense that the "modern" Trek uniforms didn't.

Someone paid attention to canon - the department colors are TOS and the communicators too (at least movie era).

We didn't get into a war with the Klingons on first contact.

Finally have the origin of the "seek out new life..." - Cochran. Not a speech I would have expected from the Cochran of "First Contact".

Minimal technobabble. But we're not going to avoid the "shields have failed" dialogue, it just got reworded to "hull polarization has failed".

Not sure what to make of the bad guy from the future. With Braga in charge it could lead to overuse of time travel eps. Running mystery as to who it is - Romulan? Cardassian? Founder? Or some as yet unknown enemy?

Umm, cuz Kirk was neither unkind nor xenophobic?
david g -- 27 Sep 2001, 21:28 GMT

He may have had questionable moments...but he was always a morally conscientious hero.

Archer, our mod "hero," is a xenophobic and surly and scary guy, unless the premiere is all wrong about him.

david g

I think T'Pol has potential, but i agree, Eric--i love Hoshi, and she and Reed may keep me watching.
david g -- 27 Sep 2001, 21:30 GMT

Them, and Trip and decontamination scenes and Giny and others to compare notes with on them.



Tracey, I agree, except for...
david g -- 27 Sep 2001, 22:42 GMT

enjoying the decontam scene...Trip suddenly, err, came alive for me.


david g

Damn your Vulcan logic!
Eric -- 27 Sep 2001, 22:43 GMT

"You green blooded inhuman....." "Let them (Klingons) die" "I will never forgive them (Klingons) for killing my son" "You know what Spock, everybody's human" "Klingon Bastard"

And i don't think there was ever a more surly Captain! He was even more of a keep it to himself Captain then Janeway! ;)


Nina, I also liked T'Pol
david g -- 27 Sep 2001, 22:44 GMT

I think she will improve with time...

so far, i like Hoshi, T'Pol, Reed, and, i think, Phlox.

david g

Kirk didnt say that
david g -- 27 Sep 2001, 22:48 GMT

Kirk didnt say, "You greenblooded, inhuman..." It was McCoy, to Spock, in TWOK. (Hey, a rhyme.)

Kirk had a longstanding feud with Klingons that was richly devloped over time. It wasnt the first thing we found out about him. And the murder of his son sure didnt help, either.

What disturbs me is not so much Archer's distrus of Vulcans but how he wears his xenophobia on his surly sleeve, so to speak. It bothers me, esp now.

david g

Tim, mate, I do get the point of Archer
david g -- 27 Sep 2001, 22:53 GMT

It still bothers me that Archer's xenophobia is the chief distinction of this new show.

Janeway castigated as shrill, shrewlike martinet for having 'em...Archer celebrated for precisely those qualities? That just bothers me.

But beyond this, I dont find Archer involving, engaging, or likable. He's pugnacious and quick to violence...And what bothers me about it is that this is the sort of man TPTB believe will finally get mainstreamers over to Trek.

I seem to be in the (grwoing?) minority, though.

david g

Are we talking about the same Jim Kirk?
Ginny -- 27 Sep 2001, 23:26 GMT

The Jim Kirk of TOS was confidant, good-humored, generous, affectionate, rambunctious, and the luckiest SOB in the Alpha Quadrant...which probably accounts for the fact that he maintained a remarkably sunny disposition for a man with his responsibilities and experiences (and a very young man, at that). Occasionally, he was intemperate and impulsive, but I would have never have called him surly. Even in the movies, when he was dealing with the consequences of getting older, Kirk wasn't surly. A little more fatalistic and cynical, perhaps, but not surly.

In fact, the only ST captain that I would ever have called "surly" is one Benjamin Sisko.

You and me, babe. You and me. 8)
Ginny -- 27 Sep 2001, 23:38 GMT

Although I have to agree with Nina (I think it was Nina) who said that the decontamination scene would have played more realistically if T'Pol and Trip had both been completely naked. After all, they were being decontaminated for exposure to alien spores, which I would think could cling to clothing as easily as to skin.

However, we are talking about the 7-9 p.m. time slot, so TPTB had to keep all the naughty parts covered. I'm just grateful that we may be seeing a return to the thrilling days of TOS and Jim Kirk's strategically ripped uniform shirts. I'm telling you, those shirts use to thrill me for *days*. Of course, I was 12 at the time. :-)

david, you seem to rushing to judgment on Archer.
Terry -- 28 Sep 2001, 00:23 GMT

I'm not sure I'm sold on him but you seem to disliking Archer just because you're mad that some people prefer him to your favorite.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

Remember when TPTB thought Neelix would be VOY's breakout character?
Terry -- 28 Sep 2001, 00:39 GMT

Heck, even Picardo was bummed that he failed to get the Neelix part and had to settle for the Doctor. (Damn, I can't believe the show was on for seven years and those losers never gave him a name!)

I think Future-Guy is a human. (NIM)
Terry -- 28 Sep 2001, 00:48 GMT

Could NOT agree more, Ginny. NIM
david g -- 28 Sep 2001, 01:07 GMT

Sisko was my least favorite Captain...

Prediction: Archer will supplant him.

Hope Im wrong cuz I really dislike Sisko.

david g

But dear Terry, I already acknowledged that Im rushing to judgment
david g -- 28 Sep 2001, 01:12 GMT

I dont expect you to painstakingly read each of my posts, Terry, but I did acknowledge that I am rushing to judgement. I am wildly overanalyzing Archer.

Then again, Archer, as he's depicted in the premiere, has been a known, presold commodity for months, and the premiere Archerwise sure lived up to the hype.

You certainly did get under my skin with your "your favorite" comment--youre my friend so youre allowed--and i guess that's part of why Ive got a bee in my bonnett re: Archer.

Point taken...but I sincerely hope Im wrong, because if Im not, I no longer feel connected to trek...that is, in its current manifestation. David g

m still thrilled, Ginny, and im 32. :) NIM
david g -- 28 Sep 2001, 01:14 GMT

My take on Archer's xenophobia, david g.
Nina -- 28 Sep 2001, 01:41 GMT

As I rewatch "Broken Bow" on tape...(note to Janeway 216: boy, do I understand why you as an Oklahoman would be annoyed by the misuse of a real town's name, because I couldn't bear the Pacific coast "location shots" in "Murder, She Wrote"!).

I see that deplorable attitude as part of the setting TPTB have chosen for the new series. We're coming out of a time of chaos, that followed on a disastrous world war. Society's settled down again, finally, and has made huge strides - but at a price. Between that and Archer's resentment of the Vulcans who've been overseeing humanity's progress toward interstellar travel (he believes, rightly or wrongly, that they are the reason his father's work didn't reach fruition in time for Henry Archer to see his warp engine fly)...yes, the good captain's got a major 'tude that he badly needs to lose.

The pilot was, IMO, about his first steps toward losing it. I'm looking forward to seeing him make more progress, now that he's "out there" among the stars.

I'm betting he's going to find he has more in common with the Klingons than with the Vulcans...I wonder how long the Vulcans would have kept THEM confined to their own star system, if they'd had the same parenting duties when the natives of Kronos were taking their first steps toward star travel?

I am long winded tonight. But I've been thinking today about why I saw what you saw, without finding it offensive in the way you found it, since a conservative is what I am not! This is the best way I can explain it, so far at least.

I confess, 'twas I. :eek:
Nina -- 28 Sep 2001, 01:47 GMT

True about the time slot, but they could have shot around the naughty parts. Or are they afraid the kiddies have adult imaginations?

Since this is billed as a sexier Trek, I wonder how they're gonna handle the bed scenes. :rolleyes:

Somehow Eric I knew you'd find a pixie! (NIM)
AChampagne -- 28 Sep 2001, 02:05 GMT

Bed scenes? We don't need no stinkin' bed scenes!
Ginny -- 28 Sep 2001, 02:45 GMT

Not when you have a ship with a "sweet spot". 8) Okay, I'm starting a pool. Which crew member will be the first to use the sweet spot for an intimate encounter?

Trip will be the first member of the Zero-G Club. (NIM)
Terry -- 28 Sep 2001, 02:59 GMT

Re: the memorable lines.... I was surprised we didn't get a "third time's the charm" running of...
Deb47 -- 28 Sep 2001, 03:37 GMT

"Straight and Steady" at the end of the show.

It was how Archer launched Enterprise from space dock, and it was what his dad told him when he was flying his toy ship "against the wind".


Re: I think Future-Guy is a human. If so, Terry, could his name be... 8-)
Deb47 -- 28 Sep 2001, 03:59 GMT

Captain Braxton?



:tv: BROKEN BOW ... I just want to say... "I'm proud to be an Okie from
Deb47 -- 28 Sep 2001, 04:09 GMT

........................Broken Bow,

That's where even farmers have a ball.

Phasering Klingons into comas.......

Just cuz they blew the silo into a fireball!"


Well, it was okay.

Much better than TNG's "Farpoint".

I gave TNG a year to get my attention, and they needed 2 to seal it.

I can do at least the same for Enterprise.

Fav part?


Things I liked...

Archer bribing Hoshi to come along on the trip 3 weeks before she planned.

Hoshi's seatbelt comments.

Trip's pec's.


Porthos, the Beagle.

"Stun works okay"... or something like that.

Don't really have anything deep or insightful ...




Good Vulcan, Bad Vulcan
Ginny -- 28 Sep 2001, 04:16 GMT

Several people have commented, like D, on how un-Vulcan T'Pol is. I think the main problem is that the expression on her face always seems a whisker away (and I'm using that purely as a metaphor) from sliding into an overt smirk...which would be a most unseemly display of emotion from a Vulcan. It makes me appreciate anew what a good job Tim Russ did with Tuvok. Of course, Tim was a Trekkie long before he became a ST character and probably had a better understanding of the original concept of Vulcans than Jolene does.

Questions on "Broken Bow", and initial comments
Lauren -- 28 Sep 2001, 04:46 GMT

First, I liked enough of "Broken Bow" to watch more ENT. Specifically, I liked:

Hoshi, probably my favorite character thus far

Dr. Phlox

The uniforms

Scott Bakula!!

The puppy.

The "primitive" (by trek standards) medical equipment, translating devices, and transporter.

The grappling hook

The decontamination scene. When I saw T'Pol, I knew there had to be some gratuitous body scene coming up, so I'm just glad that this is as gratuitous as it got. It made her catsuit seem downright modest. And, I got a kick out of the fact that T'Pol and Tripp were in this really intimate situation and all they could do is argue (cutely though...anyone want to bet that TPTB try to develop something between these two?)

(BTW, my husband's eyes were glued to the TV during that scene! I wouldn't be surprised if he were replaying that part of the tape right now!)

What I didn't exactly like:

T'Pol. The character and her condesending attitude don't bother me, but the actress does! She doesn't exactly seem right to me. Less Vulcan and more robot-like (of course, when VOY started I was disappointed in Tim Russ's performance, and by 2nd season he had become my favorite Vulcan.

The opening.

The fact that there were only two women among the seven leads, and neither one of them were thrilled to be on the ship (but the male characters were very enthusiastic)


Is this a stand-alone episode, or will we see more of the Suliban? Will we find out who from the future is behind everything and why he/she/they were trying to create dissension among the Klingons?

How much earlier did the events in "First Contact" take place? Because shouldn't Cochran have been ancient--or dead--by the time of the speech seen thirty-two years earlier?

Anyway, that's all I can think of for now.


No way!
Janey -- 28 Sep 2001, 06:03 GMT

"I suppose five minutes of viewing is too little to start a Tripoholics chapter."

Not at all! ;)

I'm in as long as I can maintain my addiction to Mayweather's smile!

"Zero-G is Fun," as my goddess said. NIM
david g -- 28 Sep 2001, 06:07 GMT

Thank you!
Janey -- 28 Sep 2001, 06:28 GMT

That is exactly what I thought!

But what is he trying to change? Is his grudge against Janeway THAT big?

Janey -- 28 Sep 2001, 06:36 GMT

I was wondering that myself.

Enterprise launches in 2151.

32 years earlier would have been 2119.

"First Contact" was 2063, right?

So that would be 56 years from his successful warp drive.

Yeah, he looked awfully young for a man rather close to the century mark.

This is Enterprise's biggest dilemma.
Terry -- 28 Sep 2001, 13:08 GMT

I was thinking of this show and comparing it in my mind to other current SF shows. One problem with ENTERPRISE is that already people cricitize it because it "doesn't do things like before."

It's not enough for Braga to create interesting Vulcan characters, they have to be consistent with the species as played by Spock or Tuvok. And I don't think that's really quite fair. This is a completely new show (and not even called Trek) and if Braga wants to show more emotional Vulcans, I say to him: "Do it as long as it works."

I wasn't singling you out, Ginny, I've had the same thoughts myself. I just don't think ENTERPRISE will amount to much if they have to live with all of the Trek baggage. Some for sure, but maybe they need some poetic license. I'm sure T'Hane would understand. :-)

Hmmm. :rolleyes: :-D :cool:
Nina -- 28 Sep 2001, 13:38 GMT

You mean the captain isn't duty-bound to lead...where no man has gone before?

Actually, though
Nina -- 28 Sep 2001, 13:44 GMT

Jolene claims to have been a Trekkie since girlhood (see TV Guide for next week).

I thought that was
Nina -- 28 Sep 2001, 13:51 GMT

a recording of Cochrane, Lauren. Made years earlier (not sure how many, exactly), when he and a team that included Captain Archer's father began work on the warp engine that ultimately flew "Enterprise." Archer complained throughout the story about all the years it took to get that engine from concept and crude prototype (the one Cochrane used in "First Contact") to where his father dreamed of getting it, and blamed the Vulcans (repeatedly) for holding the process back.

Long answer to short question. :-) But that's how I understood Cochrane's otherwise too youthful appearance on screen.

Ah, the Dictates of Poetics
Jules -- 28 Sep 2001, 14:02 GMT

I guess it can be argued that there's no such thing as a "typical" Vulcan. Just as humans and Klingons and (one presumes) Andorans all vary in personality from person to person, presumably the Vulcans do too.

Spock probably tried harder to maintain that emotionless front because he was at war with his half-human heritage for a lot of his life. Tuvok worked at it because being stuffy and humourless was just the way he was. Most of the Vulcan dignitaries we've met were probably just humourless politicians. Do any of them really represent their race accurately enough that we can point to any other Vulcan we encounter and say accusingly "That's not Vulcan behaviour!"?

Sarek seemed to be a little easier and less formal than his son, which certainly shows that the emotionless front can mellow slightly if influenced by outside forces, such as a human wife or two. And Saavik? She had problems coping with humour and the bizarrely illogical behaviour of those pesky humans, but she was different again.

So, discard a little baggage - not to the point of throwing out the entire known universe, but to the point of giving Enterprise a little breathing space. Let T'Pol be whatever kind of Vulcan she wants to be, even if it involves a certain amount of smirking superiority. Exactly the same arguments came up seven years ago when Tuvok showed up, and I didn't have a lot of problem with him not being a Spock clone. It's not as if the Vulcans are emotionless, after all; they just like to put on a good front. And some of them - like the diplomats - are probably better at it than others.

And it's a hundred years before Kirk and co show up, after all. Maybe a hundred years more involvement with the pesky infuriating humans will make the Vulcans more humourless in their later appearances rather than less. :-)


I want to establsih that I know I rushed to judgment about Archer and ENT
david g -- 28 Sep 2001, 14:47 GMT

Apart from the fact that i found the premiere boring, overall, there were some god moments. I particularly loved the disturbing methane-weaning scene; that was chilling and interesting. I loved Hoshi's linguistics lesson.

But I also feel ENT represents Trek selling out rather than Trek bein daring, bold, innovative, fresh, "modern"--Braga's inane and vexing comments about hating his previous work havent helped.

In addition, I have been hearing about Archer for so long now and not at all liking what Im hearing.

Hey, Im not a perfect critic, and I have all of my own biases and predilections that bear on my opinions, unfair or otherwise. I just wanted you guys to know Im aware that Im being judgmental and unfair...but am I inaccurate? Only time will tell.

david g

A minority of 2?
Vickie -- 28 Sep 2001, 14:58 GMT

I haven't read any posts beyond Mindy's, yet, but I liked the opening, too. Like Mindy, I took it as a signal from TPTB that this show is going to be different from the the other Treks.


T'Pol is the only character I liked...
maggie the cat -- 28 Sep 2001, 15:08 GMT

despite looking like an escapee from a methadone clinic! Where they also do breast and nipple implants. BTW, I thought heroin chic was a 90's thing :-) I don't know if Blalock has the ability to carry off the role, but at least the role was the best-written of the bunch.

Mindy and Sherry, it wasn't so much that I minded the montage . . .
Janeway216 -- 28 Sep 2001, 15:18 GMT

as that I hated the song. I hated it when Rod Stewart sang it; I hate it when this dude sings it; I don't see what the words have to do with the show (due to closed captioning, I did catch all of them); and yeah. While it may be a signal that this Trek will be different from other Treks, it just didn't seem fitting.

When you think of Trek music, what do you think of? The lonely and wild theme of TOS. The stir 'em up, get you goin' theme of TNG. The stately majesty of DS9. And VOY's sweeping, fluid tug at the heartstrings.

Not some pithy pop song by a guy who couldn't sing his way out of a paper bag. (Sorry, I don't like Rod Stewart.)


Maybe he's trying to make it so that . . .
Janeway216 -- 28 Sep 2001, 15:26 GMT

she never existed.

That would certainly be some grudge, no?


I found Archer surprisingly unappealing as well. But linguistics lessons?
maggie the cat -- 28 Sep 2001, 15:28 GMT

As a former Ph.D. candidate in linguistics, I didn't see any linguistics lessons, david g. And I'm glad of it, frankly. Because I'm still trying to figure what the h*ll "adaptive syntax" is supposed to be. Must be somethng new since I left the field? :-D

Anyway, Hoshi struck me as basically a polyglot language teacher and translator with an obvious ear for language. Not a linguist in my book, but then I'm a purist. :-D

As for Archer, I expected him to be boring white bread of the Dylan type. I didn't expect to find him repulsive. Even Dylan, bland as he is, is likeable. I really disliked Archer.

I will say the other guys (except Phlox of course) are a lot cuter than their pictures but they seem pretty vapid. Course some people like their sex objects that way :-;

Jules! Those d*** liberals are talkin' politics again!
Vickie -- 28 Sep 2001, 15:30 GMT

[whine] Make 'em stop! [whine]

Seriously, though, david g, Maggie, and anyone else to whom this applies, there is a wide divergence of political philosophy on this board. No matter what you say, you're likely to offend someone. If I want to read snide comments about George Bush, I'll go to the DNC message board. I come here to talk about Star Trek, not to get my blood pressure raised by gratuitous political commentary.


Re: Tracey, I agree, except for...
Malcom -- 28 Sep 2001, 15:36 GMT

Well, er, I noticed 'that' too. Hope it was as good for you as it was for me, though I could have done without the whole scene. To think they're airing this show at 8pm to attract more younger viewers. Didn't this used to be known as the "family hour?"

I too am damn proud to be an Okie, Deb,
Janeway216 -- 28 Sep 2001, 15:44 GMT

but that was no more Oklahoma than I am Kathryn Janeway!

And plus (this is something I've already furiously ranted about elsewhere, even before the episode came out) I really hate what that scene said about Oklahomans. We meet our first Klingon and shoot the hell out of him? Hell no! We're not that dumb, and we're sure as hell not that prejudiced.

But who's to say a Kansan wouldn't react the same way? Or maybe a Mississippian? They probably would. Then why not set it there? Oh, no, let's take advantage of the popular Dust Bowl-era misconception that Okies are Stone-Age retards. Let's take advantage of the popular misconception that Oklahoma is one big bloody field, never mind the fact that a) you can't grow corn by Broken Bow; it's in the Ouachita Mountains, and b) we don't grow corn anywhere in Oklahoma -- we grow cotton, wheat, alfalfa, etc. We also do a lot of livestock, and in Tulsa at least aerospace is big business. Corn is north of here.

Ordinarily I wouldn't be this incensed. I wouldn't even mind the opening sequence being set in Oklahoma -- if they'd done a little research and tried to find someplace in California that looked at least a little geographically correct.

Geez. I ought to write Gov. Keating.


So much for low expectations...
maggie the cat -- 28 Sep 2001, 15:51 GMT

they didn't help me enjoy BB even as nothing more than light formulaic entertainment. It reminds me of TNG's pilot but I was Trek-starved then. I hope it doesn't mirror TNG's first season! I doubt I'll be watching it much but I plan to lurk around to see if y'all find it improving. Anyway, there must be more to say about Voyager :-)

Really? I didn't realize that, Nina. I stand corrected.
Ginny -- 28 Sep 2001, 15:59 GMT

As I said in my comments, T'Pol grew on me throughout the ep, so I'm more than willing to let her develop her Vulcan the way she wants. I'm just so much of an old-style Trekkie that I can't help but compare the contemporary Vulcan portrayals to the Nimoy and Lenard classics. Because, let's face it, they were the first and best. 8)

david, (and I do read all of your posts, btw! :-) ), could I let you in on a little secret?
MindyP51 -- 28 Sep 2001, 17:34 GMT

Janeway left me darn cold in the beginning...well, maybe that's not so secret!:-) I just couldn't get behind her at all. Kate Mulgrew just did not impress me at all...and I hated the bun, too!!! :-)

Yet by the end of the first season, I had really warmed up to her, and, of course, by the end of the run, I absolutely ADORED her.

So relax, bub. Wait and see. Give "Archer" and the show a chance.


P.S.: And to be honest, I do sorta agree with Terry that you're having a hard time of letting go of ol' Katie.

Re: Well, *that* sounds promising. :-)(SPOILER)
Emily Bama Girl -- 28 Sep 2001, 18:12 GMT

I've never posted here before, but I just wanted to say I agree with you. It's about time Berman and Braga give us something to look at. There is supposed to a show coming up where Trip gets pregnant. Hopefully that means more shirtless scenes. ;)

"Family hour." :rolleyes:
Nina -- 28 Sep 2001, 18:28 GMT

Since I've come to the Neb this afternoon from a site where one of my books got reviewed under "Young Adult," when its content is such that on my home page I have an NC-17 disclaimer prefacing the sample chapters...I wonder what that means anymore?

(Hasten to add, my parents did not mind my reading similar fare when I was a teen-ager; but I put the disclaimer there for a reason. And when I was a teen-ager, Kirk's final line of dialog in "City on the Edge of Forever" was "daring television.")

The reviewer liked the book, anyway. :-)

I hope to be posting a link for an 8 p.m. tomorrow (EDT) live interview with "Romance Reviews Today." I am a chat room virgin, so this should be - um - interesting if it happens as planned!

I guess I'm in the minority but I liked Enterprise
Mrs. Mac -- 28 Sep 2001, 19:48 GMT

I liked it from start to finish. The characters have a lot of potential and the actors who play them seem considerable more comfortable in their skins than any of the previous Treks.

Special effects: Outstanding. The snow scene really stood out in my mind because they're particularly difficult to do. I was convinced of the weather, the peril, and the rescue. The laser guns are a little hokey. Why? Today a sniper can pick someone off 200 yards away and in Enterprise, as in most Trek series, everyone is a terrible shot. And, do laser guns make a "ping" sound when hitting metal?

2. I think all of the characters have individual potential. As I briefly mentioned, I think T'Pol will be a terrific character. I think it's ridiculous to compare her Vulcan to others we have seen in other Trek shows. Why should all Vulcans act like Spock or Tuvok? Spock was only 1/2 Vulcan anyway. Besides, the Vulcans we know were 100 years in the future. How close are you and me to relatives 100 years past? Basically the same but our cultures have shaped us differently. I don't expect T'Pol to be necessarily like every other Vulcan. She's a female Vulcan too and we haven't had that much exposure to them either. I understand Blalock has been a Spock fan for a number of years. I trust she knows what she's doing and that she'll get focus of her character in no time at all. She also has experienced Trek directors to help her along the way.

Archer is a kick-butt type of a guy. He's as stubborn as T'Pol and down the line there are going to be times when they butt heads and times when we see that they both really care for one another. Remember the flashback scene where the little Archer crashes his toy flyer? His father tells him to "learn to trust..." and then we see T'Pol appear in the flashback. Archer is learning to trust T'Pol to safely take command.

Trip is a bit of a hothead as well. I'll know him better when I can learn to visually distinguish him from the British guy. Sheesh. They should have hired a blonde and a brunet.

Mayweather isn't as green as Kim. I like that! He has plenty of experience and yet he hasn't lost that boyish astonishment of everything he experiences.

Hoshi is a little on the weak-kneed side and doesn't like the suggestion that's she's timid so she musters up the courage to prove otherwise. She's going to be a good character.

The doctor is a nice mix of Neelix, the doc, and even a little Data in him. As long as he doesn't get silly I'll like him. His "optimism" comment was a little corny (along with that stupid smile) but I'll get over it.

I think it was one of the better Trek beginnings. I just hope they didn't blow their entire effects budget on the premiere!

Mrs. Mac

One small step forward for B and B , one giant step back for womenkind
Monday -- 28 Sep 2001, 20:32 GMT

was anyone else troubled by the fact that Archer had to save both the females on his ship in the first episode. I know it's way to soon to tell but one peeve from the original series the fact that women were treated as sex objects or people to answer the phone or get coffee or be a nurse.

For example, T'pal falls and loses her phaser so Archer picks up both and starts fighting. T'Pal runs up and says let me stay and fight "a ship needs her captain" (she's right), he says no so she runs away.

For example, as soon as the fighting starts he yells "Trip get Hoshi to the ship" and she starts running toward the shuttle with out a backward glance. I assume she can't fire a gun because she didn't have one in the sick bay either. But then again I can't fire a gun, but if I were in a battle there would be one in my hand. Who would go into uncharted space without at taking a few lessons, I'd have to be at least good or I'd stay home. (actually with recent events at home, I thinking about learning how to use a gun right now).

For example, in the preview for next week the away team sees something terrible. We know this because there is a close up of Hoshi screaming, I know she's not the only one on the away team but I'll bet money none of the guys scream.

I miss Janeway, Belanna and Seven already, now there were role models for my little girls.

One small step forward by B and B, one giant step back for womenkind.

You're right, Nina. That was a tape of the dedication ceremony...
MindyP51 -- 28 Sep 2001, 20:38 GMT

of the "Warp Project" center, if memory serves, which they were all watching.

Considering Cochrane's adventures with Picard,, I'm sure he and Lily were pretty confident that all would be well...although they also could have been scared to death that something would go wrong and change the future that they had seen.

Interesting thought, huh? How much confidence would you have in yourself if you knew the future depended on you and your actions? In other words, would you always be asking yourself, "is this what I did historically, or am I screwing up?"



Gee, Mrs. Mac, did I give the wrong impression? I really liked ENTERPRISE. A lot. (nim)
MindyP51 -- 28 Sep 2001, 20:43 GMT

Actually, Monday, that WAS one thing that bothered me...
MindyP51 -- 28 Sep 2001, 20:47 GMT

...not about T'Pol, she had to obey her captain, but Hoshi...why wasn't she armed? I know she's not wild about being in space, and timid and all that, but still, she's a member of Starfleet...she should be trained in firearms.

Besides, if I was as scared as she is, I'd feel at least a little better knowing I could defend myself.


Not only that but the absence of women was jarring
maggie the cat -- 28 Sep 2001, 20:48 GMT

BB had a TOS feel alright. And I'm not talking the good aspects of TOS. In many ways, BB wasn't a prequel, it was just retro. Welcome back to sci fi for boys. I gotta shut up :-)

Hi Cheryl! Give Hoshi a chance....
Eric -- 28 Sep 2001, 20:52 GMT

...she is after all a school teacher! She's a civilian that was sort of drafted into Starfleet becuase she is the BEST at her job with languedges!

Linda Park has said that she wants Hoshi to become more of a butt kicker in the future.

As to T'Pol, well i have a lot of problems with her. She IS suposed to be in the Vulcan military and she wears that hideous outfit (and i thought Seven's clothing was bad *shudder*) and i kept saying use the pinch! Use the pinch! during the fight but noooooooooo.

But give the show a chance! I mean you liked TNG right? Remember Encounter at Farpoint???? *shudder* :eek: If Hoshi is still screaming at the first ship shudder THEN i will join you calling for B&B's head!

However i would like to say that Enterprise desperatly needs a third female character. Both Andromeda and Farscape have three amazing lead women with these complementing personalities that compleatly blow Enterprise out of the water.

Ok, now i'm jumping the gun but i don't see Enterprise challenging those shows anytime soon, but we will find out soon enough....


Mindy, i must have missed something....
Eric -- 28 Sep 2001, 20:55 GMT

When Archer went to Brazil to meet with Hoshi i got the impression that she was being drafted!

Isn't she a school teacher? I got the impression that she DID work with him before but i didn't know she was Fleet!



Well there were a few women in....
Eric -- 28 Sep 2001, 21:09 GMT

...the engine room and some in 10-Forward.

But i agree there were far lessb then what we saw in TNG/DS9 and Voyager.


You're part of my minority, Mindy! :) NIM
Mrs. Mac -- 28 Sep 2001, 21:09 GMT

That's a tough one, Vickie
david g -- 28 Sep 2001, 21:21 GMT

But let me say Id never want to offend you...

I did need to make a political/cultural point about ENT and its timing and its relationship to the America we now live in.

But Id never want to offend or rankle any of my friends here, Vickie, so please accept my apology; point taken, ok?

david g

I liked what I saw of it, and I think I'll like it
Ruth -- 28 Sep 2001, 21:25 GMT

even more when I actually get to see the first hour. I haven't commented before b/c I do want to see the whole thing first. The comments I've been seeing here have actually made me more interested. I even went out this afternoon and bought a gadget at radio shack that will enable to me to tape the show on my ancient second vcr, b/c I'm going to have company again on Sunday and won't be able to tape it in the living room.

For one thing, I find it intriguing that the characters, Archer in particlar, already seem to be somewhat polarizing. To me that suggests that he might be interesting. I like flawed characters; one of my biggest problems with VOY as it progressed was that everybody was so *nice.* Don't get me wrong -- I like nice people, particularly in real life! But on the screen too often the nice guy finishes bland. It was particularly a problem, IMHO, for Tom and Chakotay, but Janeway suffered as well. I felt like TPTB were so conscious of the fact that Janeway was an iconic figure representing womanhood that they were afraid to have anyone second guess her.

I'm also rather curious to see what happens if Braga is in charge from the beginning. I have often suspected that the main reason he seemed to favor Seven is that she was *his* creation, and thus he felt no real attachment to the others. It will be interesting to see what happens if all the toys are his from the start.


I'm one of those d@mn liberals, David.
Ginny -- 28 Sep 2001, 21:44 GMT

In fact, I just today volunteered to hit my framer up for a contribution to the ACLU's upcoming silent auction.

And while I do see considerable merit in discussing how the different Trek incarnations are reflective of the times in which they are made, I think we ought to hold off on any judgments about Enterprise as a reflection of the George W. administration, until we've seen more than one episode.

Fair enough?

Oh, and don't forget...
Q -- 28 Sep 2001, 21:50 GMT

those butterfly-eating dancers. ;) Were those Orion Slave Girls?

Long time no see everyone.

I thing you've got a point
Sherry -- 28 Sep 2001, 21:52 GMT

Actually, a couple of points ;)

I haven't seen the whole thing either, so I've hardly said anything (though I couldn't resist the beagle). I had company, too; my niece and nephew were watching kid-videos. So I can't say much until I watch my recording and/or Sunday's rerun.

On the other hand, I've been reading avidly! That's a keen suspicion about Brannon Braga being more comfortable with Seven because he created the character. I, too, am curious to see what he does with a group of original characters.


Oh, Maggie, please DON'T shut up!
Nina -- 28 Sep 2001, 22:35 GMT

Or Monday, either. I'm so glad I wasn't the only viewer "jarred" by the "20th Century submarine, women allowed only under special circumstances" (i.e., foreign dignitary and specialist needed for particular mission) atmosphere.

I liked so many things, but not THAT. And I was beginning to feel quite alone.

"The past is the future, the future is the past."
Nina -- 28 Sep 2001, 22:39 GMT

Like Janeway, it gives me a headache! I'll bet Cochrane had a few beauties, after the events of "First Contact." (And Lily, ditto, of course.)

Re: Incensed... Hey J216... settle down and sit a spell...
Deb47 -- 28 Sep 2001, 22:51 GMT

Speaking as an Okie from "wayyyyyyyyy" back... Lets just say that TPTB were showing you what happened to the Mountains AFTER WWIII occured.

Heck, I received a postcard from a Headhunter once, asking me to relocate to beautiful "fill in the blank" and laughed my head off. They sent me a postcard of Crater Lake in Oregon when they were inviting me to someplace in the mountains (at least) on the east coast.

Geographic illiteracy is rampant. My friend bristles everytime she talks about "Cliffhanger" which shows pics of the (?) Dolomites in Italy, and pretends they're in Colorado.

As for Okies blowing away the first alien they've seen... would you have prefered if they used an Australian? Then Tragic fan would have blown her stack.


At least they showed Okie's aren't afraid to stand up for themselves.


Oh, honey--I can think of dozens of Tennesseans...
Ginny -- 28 Sep 2001, 23:13 GMT

...who would have done the very same thing.

And I'm related to three of them. 8)

I like both Hoshi and T'Pol, too, Monday...
david g -- 28 Sep 2001, 23:33 GMT

but I really agree with your point. and i too miss the fabulous VOY women already.

david g

If some huge unknown alien crashes in my cornfield
Terry -- 28 Sep 2001, 23:34 GMT

out of the blue, proceeds to blow up my grain silo, and then moves threateningly towards me despite being warned (pointing a gun at someone's chest means "Freeze, turkey!" in intergalactic sign language ), I'd blow a hole through his chest, too. That's not dumb prejudice; that's sensible self-defense.

Vickie, Ginny, youve convinced me. Thanks. NIM
david g -- 28 Sep 2001, 23:37 GMT

I believe Hoshi is Starfleet but in some sort of inactive status.
Terry -- 28 Sep 2001, 23:45 GMT

She said something about not being required to be return to active status without her consent until some date in a few weeks or months. I got the feeling that it was similar to an academic sabbatical or an assignment to the Starfleet Reserves.

Re-read Lauren's post and Janey's response.
Terry -- 28 Sep 2001, 23:52 GMT

They know it was a recording. And they know it was made 32 years before Broken Bow because it was stated aloud.

Their comment is that 32 years before Broken Bow is still 56 years after the first warp flight in First Contact and Cochrane looks little different.

Maybe the Vulcans decided it was only logical to give human plastic surgeons a boost. :-)

Ah, I get it now. :-) NIM
Nina -- 29 Sep 2001, 01:03 GMT

I liked Enterprise, too.
Vickie -- 29 Sep 2001, 01:53 GMT

Honestly, I've been really surprised that so many people have expressed such negative reactions to the show. I thought Enterprise got off to an excellent start.

I was pretty neutral on the premise of the show. The prequel idea didn't excite me, but didn't turn me off, either. However, I found that I enjoyed seeing humans for whom this whole space travel thing is a brand new adventure.

I thought the characters were appealing, especially Trip and Archer in their underwear. :-) We've already gotten more great beefcake from one episode of ENT than we got in 7 years of Voyager. Not, of course, that I would let such shallow considerations influence my assessment of the show. :D

I'm looking forward to seeing more of Enterprise.


Go back and read what you said, david g
Vickie -- 29 Sep 2001, 02:15 GMT

When I ask you not to make snide comments about Bush, you defend yourself with this response:

That's a tough one, Vickie...I did need to make a political/cultural point about ENT and its timing and its relationship to the America we now live in

I have no objection to an intelligent, logical, fact-based discussion of "ENT and its timing and its relationship to the America we now live in." I think, as Ginny said, that such a discussion is unquestionably valid. I would also be interested in reading it.

However, go back and read what you said in the posts to which I objected:

The Era of the Smirk has begun...Archer is to Dubya as.... and

Not to offend any of his supporters here...but Archer is so Dubyaesque he makes my skin crawl.

Now in what way can you possibly claim that such comments are a part of a discussion of Enterprise's timing and its relationship to the America we now live in?

OK, I'm done preaching. I hope I have clarified exactly what I was objecting to. Based on your response, I wasn't sure that you understood the point I was trying to make.


RE: Vulcans
D -- 29 Sep 2001, 02:35 GMT

In commenting that T'Pol just didn't quite come across as Vulcan I wasn't intentionally comparing her to Spock, Tuvok et al. Vorik was less "Vulcan" but still convincing. T'Pol seemed too stiff, too much like Seven in her delivery. Since it was the pilot hopefully that's a function of being new to the part.

WHy is anyone surprised by TPTB's sexism?
Pixie -- 29 Sep 2001, 02:36 GMT

It completely colored how VOY was written? Look at:

1. How Janeway was portrayed. She was not allowed to have intimate relationships (emotionally, let alone sexual) with anyone, because I woman in power has to give up everything else. She wasn't written as a fully realized person.

2. Look at how women in relationships were portrayed. Let's start with Seven. When SEven is shown in a relationship with Axum or Chakotay, she's written as a little school girl, instead of the cold hearted witch she normally is. When B'Elanna got together with Tom, suddenly Tom was the real engineering genius and B'Elanna wasn't. She had to have Tom at her side when she faces the Klingon or her father, because she's no longer her own person. She's not allowed to have friends. Harry ceased being her friend; she wasnever allowed to interact with CHakotay adn Icheb felt it was inappropriate for him to hangout with her.

I'mtoo tired to continue.

:agree: Hoshi had no problem being assigned to the Starship.
Deb47 -- 29 Sep 2001, 03:35 GMT

She had a problem leaving her class before she was done with them.

I too got the impression she was on sabbatical from the fleet, especially when Archer threatened to drag her back 3 weeks early and she snidely told him "that" wouldn't work. The hearing to revoke her sabbatical would disqualify her from serving. Remember, Hoshi was already assigned to Enterprise. The Admiral mentioned that Archer's crew wasn't assembled yet, saying his comm officer "was in Brazil".

I got the impression that she was very dedicated to the work she was presently doing, and didn't see the "logic" in dropping everything just to bring a wounded alien home.

Now... she COULD see the logic, er... challenge in learning an entirely new (to her) language. That opportunity overrode her pride in finishing with her class.

As for her "jumping" at every little sound... well... she is new to the danged intergalatic travel idea.

I remember jumping everytime this puddle jumper I was flying on "cracked" as it flew through a winter storm. Believe me, it did NOT reassure me when the pilot joked that it was "just" the skin of the plane contracting in the cold.

Hoshi, for all her jumps and starts, still kept her cool in sickbay as she directed the Captain to the aliens lurking in the dark.

I have great hopes for Hoshi.

"What did he say?"

"You don't want to know."


(fingers crossed)


:agree: Re: Hoshi "jumping" at every little sound
Terry -- 29 Sep 2001, 06:14 GMT

The show made it clear that Hoshi has superior hearing. So she was hearing things that no one else (even T'Pol) was able to hear. She wasn't just imagining things because she was scared.

And being new to the ship, she didn't know which sounds were normal and which were signs of trouble. I didn't think she came across as jumpy so much as some people think. I think she came across as representative of humans experiencing the new and the unknown of deep-space. With both excitement and some fear.

Kirk=Charming & Determined; Archer=Bland & Vindictive
Ballinda -- 29 Sep 2001, 08:15 GMT

That's why I like Kirk and not Archer. ;-p

you *knew* I couldn't let that little comment pass ;-)
tragic fan -- 29 Sep 2001, 12:44 GMT

Reactions to a Klingon landing in various parts of Australia:

Anywhere this weekend: he would be completely ignored: the footy finals are on!

Brisbane: they would have torched his ship (I'm ashamed to say that a mosque was burnt down in that city last weekend).

Sydney: turn up in February and he would be mistaken for one of the fiercer leatherman participants in our Gay and Lesbian Mardi Gras.

Melbourne: he'd get the cold shoulder because he came from Sydney.

J216--I sympathise wholeheartedly. I can't stand it when Aussies are portrayed as monocultural morons with pseudo-cockney accents, herding kangaroos through downtown Sydney. Unfortunately, there are parts of my country where the Klingon would get blasted to kingdom come, no questions asked.


Re: ;-) .... :-)
Deb47 -- 29 Sep 2001, 13:26 GMT

But of course!

(Knew you wouldn't let it pass.)

I like the "Melbourne people" one... who'd give him a cold shoulder "because" he came from Sidney.


Re: Kirk=Charming :-P
Deb47 -- 29 Sep 2001, 13:32 GMT

Hmmmm, rather than tell T'Pol he's doing his best to restain himself from knocking her on her a$$ during their FIRST encounter...

(Which IMO was an extremely stupid comment, in response to her observation.)

...Kirk (IF he said anything) would have suggested he was restraining himself from kissing her during their first encounter.


Oh well... first ep jitters and all... I still have hopes for the show and the people.


Re: :agree: I thought too that she was on sabbatical
Sherry -- 29 Sep 2001, 14:15 GMT

Teaching this class was part of her extended leave. (Compare it to a college student or a professor having a semester abroad.) It was a bit more structured than a break or a leave of absence, and she thought she owed it to them to finish the course.)

I liked the fact that they were really using her linguistic knowledge and skills to communicate. Here or on PsiPhi, or both, someone has observed that having linguistic barriers between the Enterprise crew and the various aliens week after week could get tiresome very fast. Their skilled linguistic specialist could make this work, on the other hand.

In other words, I like Hoshi.

No, I understood Vickie.
david g -- 29 Sep 2001, 14:30 GMT

But Im going to send an email rather than hash it out here. I agree this isnt a forum for politics, and thank you for bringing that to my attention.

david g

Thanks for the affection in your response, Mindy
david g -- 29 Sep 2001, 14:33 GMT

Especially in light of the possible contentiousness of these kinds of discussions, so far.

And you know what, Mindy? Youre probably right... :)

david g

Corrected url :-)
Nina -- 29 Sep 2001, 15:08 GMT

Editor uploaded review to wrong category! WHEW! Very happy to get her e-mail, too.

david g, just want you to know :-)
Nina -- 29 Sep 2001, 15:20 GMT

(this is not particularly a response to one post, but it seems convenient to place it here) that you've got a perfect right to your honest reaction to Captain Archer. I hope no one's made you feel (me most definitely included!) that you're wrong to dislike him. That may or may not change as you keep watching, and it will still be...just an honest reaction.

I also want you to know that for me, too, "Enterprise" is not "Voyager" and never will be. I like it, I'm glad it's on, but I need a Janeway fix!!! Gotta find time to watch a tape, because my helpful local station has put the syndicated shows into a new and inconvenient scheduling slot.

Sworn forever to her house,


Here's the problem...
maggie the cat -- 29 Sep 2001, 15:50 GMT

I found BB mostly trite Trek cliches and laughable retro silliness, with the gender makeup of a pro-Taliban demonstration in Kabul.

But I always hate it when people just bash something to death while others gush like crazy. That's why I prefer the Neb to TrekBBS <cringe> or even Psi Phi. I just don't see any point in ruining other people's enjoyment of something by b*tching all the time. Especially, since Enterprise just doesn't interest me enough to be engaged like with Voyager, good and bad.

It may get better. TNG certainly did after it's wobbly start and inane first season. But this time I'm just going to depend on the Nebbies, the most reliable "critics" in my book, to let me know.

I really am going to try to shut up about BB and Enterprise. For ahile anyway :-D Obviously, it's a real struggle :-D :-D

Re: david g, just want you to know :-)
david g -- 29 Sep 2001, 16:25 GMT

Hi dear Nina...

Thanks so much for kind and sensitive response.

It did get a little heated up round here, didnt it? But at least we're all hashing out a show together again.

By the way, you never make me feel anything less than welcome, Nina, and i appreciate your insights into the show and Archer and, well, mst things very much!

david g

I know how you feel, Maggie
Ruth -- 29 Sep 2001, 17:27 GMT

The thing I like best about the Neb, apart from the humor, is the fact that we generally have polite discussions and stay away from ad hominem attacks and the "Picard Sux!!!!!" kind of posts. The closest we've ever come to flame wars here have been when folks feel their particular favorite character or particular series is being attacked. (or to add gentle support to Vickie, when we stray into politics/religion) And constant complaints about a given character/series can lead to that.

There are going to be divergent views about ENT. And hopefully this will be a home for those who like it and for those who dislike it. Frankly, I'm hoping that most of us will like it. Why? Well, it will be more pleasant to talk about something we like than something we dislike. But, mostly I'd like to see a recreation of the collegiality we all had over VOY, which at one point we all loved. Even if it didn't last for everyone, that love kept us together and gave us the basis for some fun, spirited debate.

OF course, everyone is free to express their opinion, and they should! I hope that at the end of the day we all feel fine about disagreeing and don't feel that everyone else on the board must agree with our particular opinion or that we're being told that we must agree with someone else.


In future eps, I hope we see T'Pol at least...
SuzyQ -- 29 Sep 2001, 19:58 GMT true to basic Vulcan physiology of superior strength and physical stamina. I can buy her returning to the ship due to captain's orders. But, she should not have been shivering as she was when she re-entered the ship.

I do look forward to seeing her Vulcan neck pinch save Archer's hide in future eps several times over. Why not? Spock did it for Kirk plenty of times.


Eric. she told Archer that she was due to report in 3 weeks...
Mindy -- 29 Sep 2001, 21:48 GMT

...and that she was on leave from Starfleet, so imho, her leave was cut short...sort of like all reserves and the National Guard being called up in recent weeks, I think.

So, as a member of Starfleet, she must have gone through some kind of basic training that included arms and self-defense training, yes?


:-) Hey, I like Hoshi, too! Very much!
Mindy -- 29 Sep 2001, 21:55 GMT

And I liked the way she was able to quote "Starfleet regs" right back at Archer when he threated to "kidnap" her back to active duty...which leads me to believe that reserve or not, she is an officer in Starfleet, and, as such, she should have arms & self-defense training.

I don't have a problem with her being scared...I just don't want to see the return of "helpless females" on ENTERPRISE. (In fact, Hoshi being jumpy and having a gun in her hand could be very interesting...there's a big difference between shooting at targets and using a gun in a real situation. She could, for instance, have a jumpy trigger finger, firing at the sound of a twig cracking.)


Funny you should mention the Taliban, maggie...
Mindy -- 29 Sep 2001, 21:58 GMT

...'cause I read somewhere on-line that Bragga and Berman based the Suliban on the Taliban.


Just a thought on the "Vulcan neck pinch," Eric...
Mindy -- 29 Sep 2001, 22:03 GMT

...perhaps T'Pol didn't use it in the fight because it would reveal things about the Vulcans that they don't WANT to reveal about themselves to the Terrans yet? Remember DAGGER OF THE MIND from TOS? When Spock mind-melded with the head of the psychiatric colony? McCoy didn't know about it, and as a doctor in Starfleet, he would have extensive knowledge about Vulcan physiology and abilities.

Wonder if we're gong to see T'Pol mind-meld eventually? I imagine we will.


Well, I haven't seen it to be able to give an opinion yet.
Jules -- 29 Sep 2001, 22:30 GMT

However, despite some negative reports, opinion on the board seems to at least be expressing qualified interest in watching the show. And from this bunch of jaded old cynics :-P that's suggesting that while it might not be perfect, it might indeed be worth turning on the TV for.

I do know that I've not seen anything reported about the show yet that makes me want to run screaming in the opposite direction. And that since reading this thread I'm more eager to see the episode once it shows up on my doormat than I was before Wednesday.

I've even visited TrekToday for the first time in months. That's got to say something...


LOL, Terry.
Jules -- 29 Sep 2001, 22:46 GMT

Since we're now in the pre-Universal Translator era - that's why Hoshi's aboard, right? - it'll probably be a very good thing for the universe if all those huge unknown aliens brush up on the sign language for "Freeze, turkey!" asap. :-D


;-) Uh-oh. I feel a group hug coming on. (NIM)
Ginny -- 29 Sep 2001, 23:43 GMT

One reason why Im eager to watch the next episode
david g -- 30 Sep 2001, 00:13 GMT

In addition to RDM directing...

I think perhaps the next ep will be more indicative of the true falvor of the series...i did get the feeling the premiere was esp geared towards those "new" mainstream viewers TPTB are so obsessed with.

plus, though i hope she gets to kick butt, Hoshi is a great screamer.

david g

Who are you kidding, david?
Ginny -- 30 Sep 2001, 01:09 GMT

You just want to see Trip take his shirt off again. 8) Well, hey, who doesn't?

All kidding aside, I am eager to see the next episode. I'm hoping that the actors will have settled a bit more into their characters, and some of the awkwardness will have diminished. And I'm hoping T'Pol will really have her game face on by then. (I'm sorry, guys--I just can't get past the idea that Vulcans ought to be more stoic or serene than smug. I will try to open to new experiences.) Pilots are often a bit misleading about what the show really is about, because so much ends up being crammed into a short time frame.

Caretaker, I will have to say, though, is the exception that proves the rule. It's a terrific stand-alone show.

Thanks so much for the intelligent discussion
Monday -- 30 Sep 2001, 01:13 GMT

The funny thing is I really liked Broken Bow and I too liked (or at least didn't dislike) any of the characters. I also liked the fact that Hoshi was teaching and seemed to really care about her students ( actually I'm a teacher too).

After reading through the BB thread, I noticed that no one seemed to mention the one thing that did bother me about BB, the scene when Archer comes up with a gun in both hands when the two women had none ( it just seemed so symbolic) My original subject was going to be 'Was anyone else bothered by.....' but I wanted to hear other opinions and I didn't want it to get lost in the thread.

After rereading my post, it did come across as if I was disapointed in T'Pal and Hoshi, but my real frustration was with the writers and producers. I loved TOS but it wasn't until I saw the series again as an adult that I realize how sexist it was, but I forgave it because it was made in the sixties. ( it was kind of like watching Goldfinger as an adult, after years of calling it my favorite James Bond movie, I can't believe my parents let me see that as a child!!)

I just hope, and my hope does spring eternal, that both female characters and the other males will develop over time. I hope the writers et al will remember they are writting for Enterprise not the Adventures of Captin Archer.

Ep 2 will be a good litmus test....
Caillan -- 30 Sep 2001, 01:38 GMT

...because we didn't really get to see people like Malcolm Reed, Mayweather, Hoshi and Phlox doing *that* much in the pilot - it was all very focussed on Archer, T'Pol, Trip.

Episode 2 will also be able to show us what we'll be seeing in a regular episode of the series - and how the characters will develop. 'Broken Bow' provided us with a template - the first few episodes will start to show what these people are really all about.

But ep 2, 'Flight or Fight,' is being directed by Allan Kroeker. Robbie McNeill isn't directing until episode 11, I think.

You Got That Right!!!!!!
Kathryn -- 30 Sep 2001, 02:20 GMT

I agree that the female roles in Enterprise really sucks and that is one Reason why I am not so sure about it. And Yes I miss Janeway,B'Elanna and Seven very much.


I Am With You On That (nim)
Kathryn -- 30 Sep 2001, 02:23 GMT

:confused: David, RDM is directing...
D'Alaire -- 30 Sep 2001, 03:23 GMT

...the 11th ep, yet unnamed.

Alan Kroeker directed Fight or Flight.

But I agree about Hoshi. Having watched BB again tonight, I think I like her even better. Most of the characters played better the second go-round, even T'Pol. Though, I still think she isn't quite Vulcan enough to me. She might be speaking English, but the contractions alone are weird. The behavior, her carraige...I dunno. I just can't get away from that somehow.

Ah well. We'll see on Wednesday. Like many others, I agree that the 2nd ep is a far better test of a show.

not you, Ginny :)
david g -- 30 Sep 2001, 03:38 GMT

Yeah, that was a Trippy selling point...!

Reed was pretty cool...Neeli--oops, Phlox was Hoshi...i like T'Pol, though i agree, she's Vulcan of Nine...but it's also nice to have us all together to chat, too, and ENT may just be the vessel.

david g

Sorry 'bout the RDM confusion--wishful thinking? NIM
david g -- 30 Sep 2001, 03:40 GMT

I really dont agree, Pixie
david g -- 30 Sep 2001, 03:42 GMT

It's not that I think youre completely wrong, just far from completely right, about the very complex and unusual characterizations of the VOY women, all of whom i adore.

david g

I realize now who Future Guy is (Spoilers, I guess?)
david g -- 30 Sep 2001, 03:44 GMT

ENT"s future guy...

given the fact that the Kazonlike Suliban are getting tech from a higher source from the future...

and since this tech involves genetics...

and since STAR TREK X involves genetics...and Romulans...the Suliban's Future Guy must be a...Romulan. What else makes sense?

david g

Just don't start singing the Barney song!
Roxanne -- 30 Sep 2001, 05:21 GMT

or I'm outta here! ;)


Maggie, since im going to try to stick it out...
david g -- 30 Sep 2001, 07:31 GMT

i wish you would, so we could compare notes! i always look forward to your posts.

david g

Thanks, david g but.....
maggie the cat -- 30 Sep 2001, 17:37 GMT

my negativity just increased 100fold after reading about Braga's latest foot-in- mouth outbreak in regard to Voyager. I'll just have to see if you all think it gets better. That's what reruns are for.

Just to show that I can hardly shut up about Enterprise :-D :-D ... do you suppose Archer is the new Seven character rather than T'Pol. As in an attempt at *Mr.* Perfect Sex Object. After all, we know Seven never made "silly little mistakes." If Braga himself weren't so silly, we could speculate that interesting gender bender things were going on. :-)

Maggie, did you ask awhile ago
Nina -- 30 Sep 2001, 18:05 GMT

if there wasn't more to be said about "Voyager"? :-) Whoever it was(!) reminded me that the next retrospective episode would be "Ex Post Facto."

Now if I can just find time to watch the tape...

:agree:Count me as one of those fans...
Sherry -- 30 Sep 2001, 20:58 GMT

...who hate having things rubbed in our faces!

I like Hoshi, too. I think T'Pol needs to get a new costume immediately (since sooner doesn't seem possible) and take a step backward, out of the hyperactive-bustline zone.

What do people want to do about the Voyager retrospectives?
Jules -- 30 Sep 2001, 22:06 GMT

Move them to start off at the weekend? I have, after all, been pretty bad about starting them on a Wednesday anyway :rolleyes: (with no better excuse than bungling incompetence), and now that Enterprise is actively under discussion in the midweek period, it would seem to make sense to stagger the two episode threads.

Or do we want to save the Voyager retrospectives for rerun season?

Opinions, anybody?


Re: What do people want to do about the Voyager retrospectives?
CAM -- 30 Sep 2001, 23:07 GMT

Please keep the retrospectives going. They give me something to look forward to. Starting them on the weekend seems to be a good idea. After all we have to watch TWW on Wednesdays.

The visuals were great....
Geordi -- 30 Sep 2001, 23:46 GMT

just the music itself was not Trek to me. Maybe because I have gotten used to the orchestra music of the last four series to feel anything way-out different would be Trek.

Oh, well. Loved the visuals as I said. Something refreshing after the way they did the opening theme style of the past three series. :)

O, THAT's a shocker! :)
david g -- 1 Oct 2001, 00:22 GMT

Eric wrote:

We will see in fact **I** may have to eat my words if Braga and Co drop the ball David!

But right now i have to be honest and say i like Archer MUCH more then Janeway!


What about Sunday or Monday?
D -- 1 Oct 2001, 00:48 GMT

If the Voyager discussions are any guide that's about when we start to run out of steam on the previous week's episode.

:-) I like that idea!
Sherry -- 1 Oct 2001, 01:01 GMT

I would like to see Hoshi using arms and self-defense--maybe standing over a shot-down Archer or one of her male shipmates wielding a phaser. Turn the stereotype of the woman needing to be defended on its head!


Starting on a weekend day works for me.
Nina -- 1 Oct 2001, 02:10 GMT

That IS when the new episode (ENT) discussions start to wind down, and I really do want to keep Voyager talk going. It's my first love among the Treks, and that is not apt to change unless one of Shannon O'Donnell's - granddaughters? great-granddaughters? whatever, too tired to do simple arithmetic again - screws up continuity by replacing Archer as captain.

Ducking and running for cover...

I hadn't had my Zoloft when I wrote the above.
Janeway216 -- 1 Oct 2001, 03:09 GMT

I still don't like those few minutes of "Broken Bow."

Okay, I could maybe buy Deb's rationalization, even though I know it's about three hundred miles from the truth. I might even buy the fact that the farmer shot the Klingon in self-defense, which is a valid point, and probably what the episode was trying to get across.

However, running into the house and locking the doors is a valid form of self defense also, and probably the one most of us would use.

Part of the reason the episode provoked such a violent response from me was that it touches on several other rants I have about the misconceptions Oklahomans endure. People think that tornadoes are a daily occasion, and we're all stupid farmers.

And of course, B&B played to these stereotypes. I mean, they grow stuff in Texas too, but would they have the Klingon crash-land in Texas? Probably not. There are cornfields in Kansas, but would they have the Klingon crash-land there? Probably not.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that I'm more angry at the mindset behind the script than the actions in the script themselves. I know no matter where you're from, you encounter some slights and stereotypes (ie New Yorkers are gangsters, Georgians are stupid), but to see stereotypes of a people as undeserving of that as Oklahomans are on a forum that used to be so virulently anti-stereotypical as Star Trek was (can we say first interracial kiss?) -- well, it was jarring at the very least.

I'll be fair.

Would I be objecting so much if they had set in Kansas? Probably not.

Would I like it? Probably not. Kansans are nice people too and don't deserve the whole world thinking they're gun-toting genetic throwbacks.

Can I find a different way to do that sequence and still preserve the essence of it? Probably not.

But I'm still bothered.


It's a growing minority!
Janey -- 1 Oct 2001, 07:24 GMT

Because I did like it. I liked it better the second time around.

I think I am just really disappointed it wasn't love at first viewing.


I'll just have to do a little dose of Voyager to get me through the rough spots. ;)

And I remembered another part I really liked:

"Do you know how to tell him to shut up?"



It's not all bad. One day I am sure I will sing it's praises instead of whistling occassionally.

Janey -- 1 Oct 2001, 07:34 GMT

"That's a keen suspicion about Brannon Braga being more comfortable with Seven because he created the character. I, too, am curious to see what he does with a group of original characters."

That is a very keen insight - and one I would hope isn't true.

While I agree it is easier/ more comfortable to work with something that came out of one's own head, what does this insight say about Braga's work ethic/professional integrity?

That he can't play right with the other kids' toys because they aren't his? He has to have his own to do his best work?

If this is an accurate insight, I am greatly bothered by it. He is borrowing an entire franchise, if he can't write comfortably for characters others created within that franchise how can he be comfortable creating characters within that very franchise.

There are plenty of writers who get hired mid-series or mid-season or what have you and they do well enough it seems (I am speaking television wide, not just Trek). Why couldn't/can't he do the same?

And if that were true...
Janey -- 1 Oct 2001, 07:47 GMT

What does that say about the Bs attitude towards Janeway?

Does Braxton succeed in annihilating her or not?

The answer would be very telling wouldn't it?

If he does succeed...Kathryn is never born so Voyager would never exist (at least as we know it). I wonder how much of the 24th century would change?

But then either way, it means Kate created one hell of a character - they had to create an entire SERIES to get rid of her! (Kirk only got a movie ;) )

I was studying the image - the person kinda looks Romulan...or Vulcan...dum dum dum

If they didn't, the similarities are creepy...
Janey -- 1 Oct 2001, 08:12 GMT

Suliban - Taliban, obviously.

But Sarin (among others) mentions the Kabal when Archer asks about the Suliban.

Kabul is the capital of Afghanistan.

The Suliban move in the shadows.

They are guided by an elusive well-hidden leader.

So at the very least Braga and Berman are maintaining the Trek tradition of putting current issues into the show and into our living rooms...though like the rest of us they never realized just how home this issue would hit.

I love you...
Janey -- 1 Oct 2001, 08:25 GMT


Someone had to do it, might as well be me. ;)

Now I've got that stupid song in my head.

Figures. :rolleyes: Serves me right I guess.

:) LOL
Janey -- 1 Oct 2001, 08:35 GMT

I think great-granddaughter, at least.

Could be :-)
maggie the cat -- 1 Oct 2001, 14:38 GMT

Every so often someone comes up with a new take on Voy that gets us going around here.

I thought he looked Romulan...or Vulcan...too, Janey. (nim)
Mindy -- 1 Oct 2001, 17:03 GMT

Re: Just a thought on the "Vulcan neck pinch," Eric...
Sherry -- 1 Oct 2001, 19:34 GMT

You wrote "...perhaps T'Pol didn't use it in the fight because it would reveal things about the Vulcans that they don't WANT to reveal about themselves to the Terrans yet?"

That is a logical explanation. I couldn't resist! ;)

I wonder too what Vulcan talents we're going to see T'Pol use eventually--and what reason(s) they'll have not to report them, so that McCoy's still in the dark.

Okay. So shall we pick up Voyager again next Sunday...?
Jules -- 1 Oct 2001, 19:46 GMT

With "Ex Post Facto"?

That'll give the Enterprise discussion time to run its course, and allow for a little extra flare-up from the Saturday repeat, after which the Voyager discussion can tide folks over until Wednesday rolls round again.

(Early warning alert: if we're discussing "Ex Post Facto" the subject of Tom's eye colour is going to come up again. Trust me on this. It's a choice episode for Tom glamour shots. :-P)


Aye, aye, Cap'n. NIM :-)
Nina -- 1 Oct 2001, 20:06 GMT

:agree: With those shoulder pads, it has to be a Romulan
Terry -- 1 Oct 2001, 23:47 GMT

or Joan Crawford. "No more coat-hangers!" :eek:

I agree 'Enterprise' WAS good, Mrs. Mac...
Mike -- 2 Oct 2001, 01:17 GMT

....well here I am late for the party once again.

Elaine and I enjoyed the first show. I don't think it was excellent or anything, but the series was off to a very good start. I think Elaine liked it even more than me. I found it all a nice refreshing change, seeing how it all started and getting back to the basics before ridiculously far-fetched technology like holodecks came along. Here the transporter was still new...kind of reminded me of those funny scenes in 'Galaxy Quest' where they were afraid to use the transporter except as a last resort to save the captain.

I never liked any of the first episodes except for TOS...I thought the first TNG ep was down right bad, DS9 wasn't much better IMHO and 'Caretaker' was just so-so to me.

Mrs. Mac said:

'I think all of the characters have individual potential. As I briefly mentioned, I think T'Pol will be a terrific character. I think it's ridiculous to compare her Vulcan to others we have seen in other Trek shows. Why should all Vulcans act like Spock or Tuvok?'

I found T'Pol to be an intriguing character too, and I agree we can't compare her actions to those of other Vulcans that came along 100 years later. In fact, I prefer to not nitpick to much about this show and what's considered 'canon'...I just want to watch and enjoy it for what it is. I like this fresh new approach to Trek, seeing how it all started, fear of using the transporter, bumping shuttles into the ship, communicators that have static, and scratching the paint-LOL.

And my gut feeling is that Archer is going to be a wonderful captain right up there with my favorites...Kirk and Captain Calhoun. I was hoping for a kick a_s no nonsense captain like Calhoun is in the 'New Frontier' book series and it looks like I may get my wish :^).

Anyway, it's way too early to be making negative judgements about the show based on one episode, they did a great job. I think of it as a shake down cruise on a fine new ship, still working out the minor bugs and such but hopefully destined for a smooth sailing future.

'Enterprise' may be just what this fan needs to renew his interest in the mythology of Trek again.

Best wishes,

Mike D.

Absolutely right, Mike
Vickie -- 2 Oct 2001, 14:52 GMT

Mike wrote:

Anyway, it's way too early to be making negative judgements about the show based on one episode...

I was just getting ready to say the same thing in response to one of the "Enterprise sux" posts. For cryin' out loud, we've seen one episode! Talk about your rush to judgement!

I am happy to see that at least a few of us liked Enterprise. I started to get worried last week when the first handful of posts I read were so negative.


I agree as well (oh, and CNDCrs)
Ruth -- 2 Oct 2001, 16:10 GMT

I still haven't seen the entire episode (family visits, work, etc.) but what I've seen I've liked. As I've said before, I like characters with a few warts, and if Archer is less idealistic and more judgmental than Kirk or Janeway, well, that only makes sense given the theme of the show. Archer is going into the unknown in a way that Kirk (with a hundred years of exploration and history behind him) didn't. I also have a feeling we'll see the reasons why Starfleet eventually adopted the prime directive. Archer's own prejudices are probably going to lead him to mess up and mess up badly in the future.

CNDCrs (and other Galaxy Quest fans) -- I haven't seen anyone else mention this, but I can't see Dr. Phlox without thinking of Malthazar from GQ. They have a similar intonation, although Phlox seems a bit more mocking than the sweet Malthazar.


Whoa! He does, doesn't he?
Vickie -- 2 Oct 2001, 16:49 GMT

Ruth wrote:

I haven't seen anyone else mention this, but I can't see Dr. Phlox without thinking of Malthazar from GQ.

I hadn't made the connection, but now that you mention it, it is perfectly obvious. Dr. Phlox not only has a similar intonation, but he also has that same head-cocking motion Malthazar made when he finished speaking.


This touches on something that I've been thinking, Ruth.
Joy -- 3 Oct 2001, 01:49 GMT

About the captains, that is. Although I didn't especially warm to Captain Archer this time out, that's okay. I can see where there's plenty of room for character growth. One of Captain Janeway's problems as a character for me is that she seemed to grow backward...she started out more fully realized than she ended, in my opinion. And that's been one of Brannon Braga's problems, I think...he mistakes character changes for growth and development.

I also enjoyed the premiere, much more than I expected, in fact.


Getting ready to go watch my tape of "Ex Post Facto."
Nina -- 6 Oct 2001, 01:43 GMT

Boy, do I ever need a Janeway fix!!!

Ooh, that one has lots of yummy Tom close-ups.
Ginny -- 6 Oct 2001, 02:14 GMT

I may watch it tomorrow as part of my birthday celebration.

Speaking of which, the festive Birthday Eve celebration is about to begin, as I head out to meet my birthday buds at...the bowling alley.

Deb47 -- 6 Oct 2001, 05:41 GMT

I assumed Sarin meant she was part of the "cabal", Janey, and therefore knew MUCH more about what was going on than the Suliban were willing to risk.

The name of her race may be stolen from "Taliban", but the idea of a race pushing their evolution ahead of schedule is (to me) the antithesis of what we know about the Taliban who have de-evolved their society to the bronze aga.

Albeit one with 20th century stinger missiles.



Lots and lots of yummy close ups. :cool:
Jules -- 6 Oct 2001, 14:02 GMT

I hope it's alright if I watch it as part of your birthday celebrations too, Ginny? A few glamour shots of Our Darling Tom is always a good way to spend an hour, and I haven't entirely thrown him over for Trip Tucker just yet.

Although I have to say... that decontamination scene was a hoot.

Yes, yes, I've now seen it. :-) Is it too early to start wondering whether both Trip and T'Pol have an ear fetish thing going for them?


Happy birthday, Ginny! :-)
Nina -- 6 Oct 2001, 14:20 GMT


My fave, though :cool:
Nina -- 6 Oct 2001, 14:26 GMT

is Janeway holding an unconscious Tom's head on her shoulder, as they're about to beam up after she's talked the planet's authorities into letting her take him to Voyager for medical treatment. I love her combination of protectiveness and authority throughout that scene (and for that matter, throughout the episode).

Second favorite, the worried looks she gives Tuvok as he's preparing for the mind meld. At first viewing, years ago when I didn't understand the relationship between Janeway and her Vulcan, I missed those looks completely - but I certainly see them now. :-D Mulgrew knew her character, even if I didn't yet, and gave that scene all the right nuances.

Of course you and Ginny are right about the Tom glamor shots, too! :-) Yummy eye candy.

Gravity is normal on the ship
Jules -- 6 Oct 2001, 15:51 GMT

Mayweather's complaint was that his father's ship used to have it at 0.8G, and that he preferred it that bit lighter than Earth normal.

That might explain why Trip later found him camping out in the sweet spot.

I'll grant you that, whatever the artificial gravity is set to on the ship, the description "gravity defying" still applies to T'Pol though. :-)


In view of what's been said on the board I'll admit I was looking out for it...
Jules -- 6 Oct 2001, 16:45 GMT

... but what gave you the impression that there were no ordinary female crew members in evidence? In the mess hall scene, when Trip went through to have dinner with T'Pol and the captain, I counted at least five females, which was about a 50-50 ratio for the room.

Granted I can't tell you what the ratio was floating around Engineering. My focus was generally on Trip during those scenes (because I was following the dialogue, obviously ;-)), but I'll try to look around the room a little more when I rewatch the episode.


The mess hall scene I don't remember all that clearly
Nina -- 6 Oct 2001, 16:52 GMT

but I was, in fact, referring to the working parts of the ship (and the "getting ready to fly" scenes). I kept seeing males, males, and more males, and that's what jarred me.

Hmmm, can't rewatch because I am not hanging onto the tapes for long on this one. I would now like to check the mess hall scene again, naturally! :-)

Women are definately in the background shots, Jules.
Deb47 -- 6 Oct 2001, 17:08 GMT

Your comments about the messhall scene, also mirror mine thoughts about various other hallway scenes and Eric's comments about the engine room.

I still think its "more" than numbers, its perception.

"I need you, but I don't want it to appear like I need you, so I want you to ask your bosses to let you stay so I can have someone around to blame whenever I do something wrong, and pull my butt out of the wringer when I do something really wrong."


Just being a "little" catty about events in this & last week's show.

By the way, screamer or not, Hoshi's still my fav. so far.


Hey, this Bow's not Broken!
Jules -- 6 Oct 2001, 17:10 GMT

I was one of those who was most negative about setting it so far back in time as a prequel to all the other shows, but I find I'm rather enjoying all the little retro touches and the crew discovering things for the first time that after so many hours of Trek we're already familiar with. The "phase pistol" and the "transport device", for instance.

And a warp five drive isn't so bad, you know. Even Kirk's Enterprise seldom ventured much above Warp Six, unless it was a real emergency or some entity had taken over the ship. :-)

The Credits

Trek has been using the same basic theme for the opening sequences of the various shows ever since TNG, and even that was a conscious remodelling of the TOS original. It probably was time to experiment and try something a little different. I thought the montage of flying history clips was rather nice, and it quite nicely sums up the starting premise of the show: that all that aviation and spaceship pioneering has been a working towards this moment, when they finally have a ship that can go places and explore the galaxy.

As for the oft discussed theme tune: I didn't find it jarring, or particularly inappropriate. The sentiment of the words I heard (the "from there to here" theme) works, and while I'm not planning on rushing right out to buy the single, it's okay. A little bland maybe, but that's what you want for a credits sequence. To take another rock/pop example: the Highlander credits always drove me nuts, because they're just so overpowering. And yet, I like Queen, like that song, have that album. But while it worked for a film soundtrack, it sounds desperately out of place as a lead in to a television episode. This was more muted than that, thankfully. It's different for Trek, but would anybody even have noticed or commented on it if the series hadn't had all that history behind it?

Having said that, I don't think it'll ever be quite as emotionally stirring as that sudden swell of sound as Voyager's theme kicked in always was. There's just something about the way orchestral music can grab you.


Welcome to the 21st century, America. :cool:

Of course, playing US widescreen on a widescreen television turns out to be something more of a challenge, since it seems to have been done by pasting in the black bars at the top and bottom of the picture on a full-frame original. So I had to fiddle with the settings of my television and override the normal widescreen mode, since that just stretched the picture and kept the black bars. It fits perfectly if you zoom in, though half the UPN bug drops off the bottom of the screen. Shame they didn't place all of it over the black bars instead of only half of it, so I could have got rid of it entirely. :-)

The Trigger-Happy Oklahoman Farmer

Having an alien crash-land in your field and burn a crater through your crop is one thing. Accidents do happen, and it's not like Earth hasn't known for years that there are alien races out there, and that some of them are already dropping by to visit.

But when they blow up your silo as well... The farmer didn't get there in time to see that the Klingon was being pursued by two murderous Suliban, and that damaging his property was in the name of self-defence. So if you add what looks like sabotage to the fact that they don't speak the same language, the guy's a foot taller than he is, and is advancing in spite of a warning that body language alone should have translated... small wonder he fired.

The Decontamination Scene

Was it gratuitous? Oh yes. Did I mind? No way. I thought it was an absolute hoot.

As others have said, part of its effectiveness lies in the fact that T'Pol and Trip seem completely oblivious to the fact that they're a scantily dressed male and female in close proximity to each other. They just carry right on arguing with each other. Which gives it a comic element right along with the sexual one and the plot furtherance of their dialogue.

Anyone else think it was curious that the most sexual and lingering touch either one of them actually did was when they were putting the gel on each other's ears? Probably a metaphor for something. :-)

The Suliban

I thought they were a pretty nifty new alien race. Full marks to the costume and makeup department for doing something a little different from the usual bumpy nose or forehead! I liked the way that they (or at least the enhanced ones) could flatten themselves to squeeze under doors, and the way they scampered across ceilings. (Although I do wonder whether somebody'd seen "Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon" a few too many times to give them the idea to have a race do that.)


Archer - He's opinionated, prejudiced, stubborn as a mule, and I think that this voyage is going to involve a certain amount of learning curve for him, when it comes to learning how to play nicely with the aliens. Particularly the Vulcans. But that's a good thing, because it gives him some character progress to make. On the whole I thought he was flawed, but likeable.

T'Pol - Carries on that old Vulcan tradition of not letting the other races know what's going on inside them. She was a little stiff and formal, but she was in an unfamiliar position on an unfamiliar ship, playing chaperone to a bunch of humans. Since the conversation at dinner implies that the Vulcans living on Earth pretty much keep to themselves in the "compound", I'd guess that she's only ever encountered humans in a formal setting up until now. Like Archer, she's going to have to learn to bend and adapt to different circumstances, meeting them halfway.

I notice that on both occasions when Trip managed to persuade her to change her mind - firstly about turning around and going back to Earth when Archer was incapacitated, and secondly about going to Archer's rescue - we never actually see her concede the point. Trip just states his case, gets in the last clincher of a point, and then we segue to the next scene where it transpires that she's done an about face. While it might have been nice to see the change of heart on screen, I wonder whether it was a deliberate decision on the part of the writers. Vulcans hide so much, after all.

Trip - I'm ready to join that Tripoholics chapter anytime you want to start it, Joy. I like the way his accent suddenly comes on stronger any time he gets flustered or emotional. I like the way that he's loyal to his friends, and that he appears to be able to out-argue a Vulcan. Using emotional arguments too, which is quite a trick. :-)

I also like that he's shown to be a good guy, easy to get along with, and probably a competent engineer, but not a superman. He struggles to comprehend the controls of the Suliban ship that Mayweather has mastered with ease. He's prone to scraping the paintwork when he's driving and his attention gets distracted.

And hey, they can send him on an away team anyday if he has to get decontaminated when he gets back. :-p

Hoshi - She has a terrific smile. No wonder Eric's gone ga-ga over her already. ;-)

I thought that a lot of the translation scenes were pretty well done, given that the whole process has to be speeded up for the requirements of television. If you've only got 42 minutes, you can't spend them all with Hoshi getting past first basics. But it works that she uses the prototype universal translator as a tool and a starting point, then uses her listening skills and training as a linguist to build on that. And also, the translations are less than perfect. There are words she can't get, and sometimes all she can do is approximate.

She's a little jumpy, true, but she's probably also a little disorientated. She'd expected to have weeks or months more before the ship was ready to launch, and to have to drop everything and get aboard in under three days means that she had no real time to mentally prepare. It's also possible that she was supposed to undergo some extra training in that period, since she was due to report back in three weeks time before Archer escalated the timetable and I don't think the ship was due to leave quite that soon.

My guess is that she's nervy by temperament, and the acuteness of her hearing is going to accentuate that. But she also seems to be fairly gutsy. It's just that she's not Vulcan and she isn't good at hiding her feelings as she works things through. I liked her a lot.

Reed - Didn't really get a lot of time to judge him by, but if his reaction watching the butterfly girls is anything to go by... well, Trip may already have been voted crewmember most likely to get into an interesting encounter in the ship's sweet spot, but my money's on Reed being the one who'll get into trouble when they're down on shore leave.

Loved the comment about it being a good idea not to get stun and kill mixed up on the "phase pistol". Very droll.

Mayweather - Again, not much to judge him by yet. I have a faint suspicion that he may end up being the Harry Kim sidekick to Reed's Tom Paris, but other than that he's a quick study as a pilot, and has lived aboard spaceships most of his life, we don't really know that much about him or his personality yet.

Phlox - Very bright and breezy and self assured. I do see elements of both Neelix and the Doctor in him, but not exclusively so. And I do like the emphasis on a more organic approach to medicine than the fix-everything hyposprays that we've seen in recent years. The starfish that healed Archer's wounded leg was interesting, and I'm convinced that at some point one or other of his menagerie is going to escape and run riot on the ship for an entire episode.

Porthos - Ah. What a cutie. My suspicion is that he's aboard as a plot device... to give Archer someone/something to confide his real thoughts to about what's going on, without having to fall back on the dear diary format of "Captain's Personal Log" entries that we've had from previous series. Since he looks a lot cuter than the computer when he looks back at Archer and gives him that "Yeah? So what?" look, I vote he can stay!


But "perception" is bizarre too.
Jules -- 6 Oct 2001, 17:24 GMT

We may have a male captain again, but we have a female second-in-command.

Did Trip get ticked off when T'Pol pulled rank on him and took temporary command of the ship when Archer was incapacitated? Yes, he did.

Was it because she was female? No, it was because he feared that she was doing so primarily because she planned to go against the captain's wishes and turn around and head back to Earth. Possibly also because she belonged to a different service and was therefore treading on Starfleet's toes by taking over. As we know, the humans have a bit of an inferiority complex about that right now, because of the way the Vulcans have been nursemaiding them along by feeding them knowledge one little bit at a time. (As an aside: sounds a little like an informal version of the Prime Directive, doesn't it?)

But there was no indication that he questioned her competence to take command; only that he feared she would use the opportunity to go against his captain's wishes.

So if you ask me, perception's as much a load of hooey as counting heads.

(And if you don't mind my saying so, your example has a lot more to do with the currently uncertain relations between Vulcan and Human. The fact that one character was female and the other male doesn't really seem relevant. If Archer's Vulcan observer had been male, he'd still have had a hard time admitting that he needed the Vulcans' help and knowledge out there in the big wide galaxy.)

Okay, I'll shut up now. ;-)


Well, Jules, I've chalked it up to...
Vickie -- 6 Oct 2001, 18:42 GMT

...people who were determined not to like Enterprise anyway. All this fuss over not enough women on board (which I think is clearly not true) is just an excuse to bash Enterprise. After all, if people were sincere about giving the show a chance, they wouldn't have been so quick to judge based on a single episode.

Just my opinion, of course. :-)


Personally, I chalk it up to PVS.
Terry -- 6 Oct 2001, 19:23 GMT

Post-Voyager Syndrome

Oh Jules, I wasn't referring to Tripp's perception, but my own.
Deb47 -- 6 Oct 2001, 20:12 GMT

I have no doubt that he was resentful towards T'Pol becasue she was Vulcan, not because she was female. Likewise with Archer.

No, I'm referring to "my" perception regarding the treatment of T'Pol by Archer in the first 2 eps, nothing more.

I've never "understood" the outbursts towards T'Pol in their first meeting, and feel rather than "flesh out" Archer they demean him as his character demeans T'Pol.

Yeah, yeah... he's upset that Daddy died before he could see "his" warp 5 engine fly.

Yet... if the Vulcans had given Daddy the answers he sought... he would have been watching the VULCAN's warp 5 engine fly, not his own. So where's the foul?

I agree with you that it does sound like the Vulcans are trying to use a form of the Prime Directive... and considering its only been in the last 50 years that humanity has gotten things under control at home... sounds like a danged good thing they held out on humanity as long as they did.


I've formed a theory about the Warp 5 engine, Deb.
Terry -- 6 Oct 2001, 20:58 GMT

Archer and Trip have gone on so much about Archer's dad not getting to see his engine fly. Finally, I came to the realization that Archer Sr. must have finished the engine a while back but the Vulcans convinced Earth to continue testing and refining it before actually installing it on a Starfleet starship.

My theory is that this engine was developed several years ago before it was put in Enterprise. And that Archer's father died in the meantime, frustrated by the delays.

This has never been clearly stated on the show but it seems to make most sense to me.

And the good twin is finally heard from!
Ginny -- 6 Oct 2001, 21:43 GMT

Jules wrote: I'm ready to join that Tripoholics chapter anytime you want to start it, Joy.

--What do you mean, *start* a chapter? Hon, I've already got the club T-shirt and the secret decoder ring.

Jules wrote: Anyone else think it was curious that the most sexual and lingering touch either one of them actually did was when they were putting the gel on each other's ears? Probably a metaphor for something.

--Well, once T'Pol and Trip are undressed, their ears are the most distinctily species-different feature on them. I think having them rub gel on each other's ears was a less-than-subtle way to make that point. And it also gave Trip an easy way to shrug off T'Pol's touch, once he decided the argument was over.

Jules wrote: Reed - Didn't really get a lot of time to judge him by, but if his reaction watching the butterfly girls is anything to go by... well, Trip may already have been voted crewmember most likely to get into an interesting encounter in the ship's sweet spot, but my money's on Reed being the one who'll get into trouble when they're down on shore leave.

--Actually, I think Reed may turn out to be our most likely candidate for the gay or bisexual character (and rumor has it that there is going to be one), although I think Travis' backstory would make him the more interesting choice in that regard.

More on Warp 5 engine, Vulcans, and the Prime Directive.
Terry -- 6 Oct 2001, 21:57 GMT

I never did answer the question about whether the credit for the Warp 5 engine truly belonged to Archer Sr. or the Vulcan advisors.

My theory is that the Vulcans are practicing an early form of the Prime Directive in their relations with Earth. And that it went further than just not contacting them before they had warp drive.

I conjecture that the Vulcans are trying to guide the development of humanity by giving them only the technology that they feel humans are ready to handle. Contrarily in other areas, like propulsion for spacecraft, they were likely holding back human science. Literally making Starfleet slow down.

Of course, this plan goes against the spirit of non-interventionism of the PD but it does proceed from the same overall goal: preventing cultures from advancing too far too fast.

Fans have been predicting that the PD will arise from mistakes made by Enterprise and other early Starfleet vessels with primitive cultures. But here's a different thought: perhaps it was also influenced by the realization that the Vulcan attempt to guide Earth was ultimately more harmful than helpful.

So perhaps Archer and Enterprise convince T'Pol and other Vulcans that Earth (and by extension all other cultures) should progress at their own speed.

I think I was groping there in my own blind little way.
Jules -- 6 Oct 2001, 22:52 GMT

Although I hadn't actually got any further than maybe the Enterprise crew realising, some way down the line, that they had needed a little time to get ready for the universe.

But it's true that it cuts both ways. The Vulcans should only hand over the answers to things when the humans are in a position to handle the answers - and that can mean anything from coping with the thought that it's a big wide universe out there, to not making giant leaps in one area of technology when they don't have the strength in depth in other areas to back it up. But on the other hand, if they get over-protective and hold back human development when they are both scientifically and culturally prepared to go forward, they're only going to frustrate them and foster resentment of the sort Archer feels. And it's not just Archer. Trip doesn't say as much, but he clearly thinks it too, and he's the ship's engineer. And Admiral Forrest* clearly feels that way, or he wouldn't have pulled in Archer so quickly to the conference over the injured Klingon when he had to know what Archer's reaction would be. Clearly he both expected him to object, and wished for it.

I've been kind of expecting that we'll see how and why the Prime Directive came into being, and I think you may well be right that a lot of it is down to both the good and the bad that came out of the Vulcans' mother-hen routine with Earth. If the humans do screw up, it may be at least partly the Vulcans' fault for only telling them what they think they need to know.

* Admiral Forrest? You don't think the initial of his first name is "D", by any chance do you? :cool:


Well hey, I'm a little behind. Sniff. :-(
Jules -- 6 Oct 2001, 23:00 GMT

Can I help it if you all had 10 days head start on me in getting the Trip fan club going? Do I get a t-shirt too?

As for the gay/bisexual rumour: yes, I'd think one of those two the most likely candidate too, if it does come to pass. You'll note that while I observed their fascination with the butterfly girls, I didn't specify the precise form that shore leave trouble might take. :-)


Question about Warp 5
D -- 7 Oct 2001, 03:38 GMT

Is this the same as Warp 5 on TNG/Voyager? I know the warp tables changed between TOS & TNG, so that maximum theoretically possible warp is just under 10. But did the entire scale above Warp 1 change or was it somewhere at the higher speeds?

Re: First initials...
Deb47 -- 7 Oct 2001, 03:55 GMT

Well, there was heavy speculation prepremiere that the fellow was named for D Kelley.

Isn't there also supposed to be an Admiral Leonard somewhere?

Can there be an Ambassador William far behind?



Re: Question about Warp 5
Deb47 -- 7 Oct 2001, 03:58 GMT

Good question. Seems like someone, somewhere once suggested that the warp tables/references did change between TOS and its "modern" versions.

I think Janeway once told Kim in "Flashback" that Kirk's ship was only half as fast as theirs. Since Archer is doing "5", and I thought Kirk regularly was in the sub 10's... that would suggest "his" warp 9 and "her" warp 9 are not equal.


I think that perhaps Warp is measured on a logarithmic scale.
Terry -- 7 Oct 2001, 05:07 GMT

I usually don't pay attention into Trek technobabble but here goes.

TOS at times went over Warp 10. Later in TNG, they decided that Warp 10 was the limit. Perhaps it even represented infinite speed at that time. Certainly by Voyager's Threshold, that seems to be the idea.

So the warp scale is probably some form of logarithm scale like the Richter scale for earthquakes or an abritrary scale like Mohs scale of mineral hardness.

I think the old Enterprise-A rarely did Warp 8 or maybe 9 except under external influence or alien tinkering. I believe the Enterprise-D went maybe 9.5. Depending on the curve of the scale, 9.5 might be twice the linear speed of 9.0.

Of course, the real answer is the speed is whatever the writers say it is in any script. No matter the speed of the ship in past eps, if the plot calls for the ship to take ten minutes or ten days to get somewhere, that's how fast the ship is in the current ep.

About ENTERPRISE's opening theme...
SuzyQ -- 7 Oct 2001, 06:12 GMT

You said:

"...I don't think it'll ever be quite as emotionally stirring as that sudden swell of sound as Voyager's theme kicked in always was. There's just something about the way orchestral music can grab you."

EXACTLY! My husband, an orchestra conductor, usually finds a way to program some Star Trek music into summer concerts. But, when he heard what ENTERPRISE had come up with for their opener, he said rather sadly, "Well, I guess that's one less Trek series I have to worry about."


I believe Terry's right.
Jules -- 7 Oct 2001, 10:30 GMT

Kirk's Enterprise seldom went above warp six, which was its standard cruising speed, without fraying a little at the edges. Generally you saw a lot of shots of Engineering glowing red and an anxious Scotty comming the captain at five minute intervals to say "The engines cannae take it" whenever they tried. At various points in time however it did get a lot higher, either because they were pushing it to its limits, or because someone had taken it over and sabotaged it, when I can remember it reaching at least warp 13.

The new warp scale was introduced at the start of TNG, and was apparently Roddenberry's idea, because he wanted to make warp 10 the top of the scale and the unbreakable limit. Of course, that gets pretty much bent or broken by "All Good Things", when they use warp 13, so presumably there's another recalibration yet to come in the future of the TNG, DS9 and Voyager crews. :rolleyes: Either that or they managed to debug the infinite velocity turning-into-lizards problem once all of Starfleet's crack scientists managed to get to work on the data from Voyager's failed "Threshold" experiment. ;-)

But the basic assumption is that they recalibrated the scale at some point between Kirk's time and the three series set in the 24th century. I'd guess that in Archer's time they're probably using the same warp scale that Kirk later did, but given all the evidence for other recalibrations, there's nothing to say that it didn't get redefined after Archer and before Kirk as well.


PVS? :-) You may be right, Terry
Vickie -- 7 Oct 2001, 19:48 GMT

We may all be suffering from a collective case of Post-Voyager Syndrome.

Those of us who suffered through the pain of the disappointment that was much of Voyager's last few seasons have joyfully embraced Enterprise because it is NOT, thankfully, Voyager.

On the other hand, those of us who loved what Voyager provided, right up to and through the final episode, are having a hard time embracing Enterprise because it is NOT, sadly, Voyager.

And I suppose there are a few well-balanced individuals hovering someplace in the middle.


I found the answer :)
D -- 11 Oct 2001, 00:51 GMT

Most of the November Star Trek Magazine is about Enterprise. One article that talks about the Warp engine says TPTB decided to use the TNG era scale, not the values from TOS. My assumption is its because the TNG scale is a formal one, while TOS was probably guess work.

Did anyone watch BB again tonight? Did a second viewing change your mind about anything?
Ginny -- 30 Sep 2001, 06:14 GMT

I didn't tape ENT Wednesday, so tonight was the first chance I had to rewatch the episode. Here are some of my revised opinions.

--T'Pol's catsuit is even uglier than I first thought. It has to go. And it should take that god-awful Chekov wig with it.

The men's bright blue underwear, however, may stay. 8)

--T'Pol is going to be a more interesting character than I first thought. She still needs to work on some of her facial expressions and the way she holds her mouth (which can be very distracting), but there's a slyness to her that I rather like. I noticed how much more time she appears to spend with Trip than anyone else, even Archer. What can I say--she and Trip interest me as a pair. Of what, I don't know yet. There aren't any obvious sparks between them sexually, even in the decon scene, but I really like seeing them together. Actually, it would thrill me to death if they were able to recreate a little of that old Spock-McCoy dynamic. But the dialogue will have to improve considerably, and Connor needs to relax a little and stop working so hard on the accent.

Trip also seems to be the one who is most likely to be the "buffoon" of the group, which I'm not really crazy about. I prefer my humor with a little more wit and a few less pratfalls. And although the idea that the ship has a "sweet spot" fascinates me, that whole conversation between Trip and Mayweather in the sweet spot was just painful. The dialogue/banter really needs to improve between the crewmembers, and a complete rewrite needs to be done for Archer. The whole "ass this and ass that" aspect of his dialogue is more than a little overdone.

--Speaking of whom, I liked Archer even less as a captain this time. That's not a good sign. It may just be the horrible dialogue Scott had to say, but what I really fear is that he's going to turn out to be a jerk.

The beagle's cute, but he doesn't belong on the ship. Put him in a kennel.

--Reed and Mayweather have the potential of being ENT's version of O'Brien and Bashir or Data and Geordie. This time, I noticed how really young Mayweather (whom I keep wanting to call Mayfair) is, and he's still a very bland and unformed character. I also noticed how all the really funny lines go to Reed, whose delivery, however, is so deadpan that you really have to pay attention to get the joke.

--Hoshi annoyed me even more this time. I hope she calms down some. If her superior hearing makes her jump like someone goosed her everytime they run a sensor sweep, I'm going to eventually start petitioning for her to go out an airlock.

And for heaven's sake, someone teach this woman how to handle herself in a fire fight. The big man coming to the rescue of the little woman really jumped out at me on the second viewing.

--The decon scene. I think I'm becoming a pervert in my middle age, because I still find this scene as compelling as a train wreck. Sure, it's unnecessary and obvious and prompts anyone with any sense of decorum to roll his or her eyes, but T'Pol and Trip are clearly established as equals in the encounter, and as blue, literally and figuratively, as the scene is (try watching it with the sound know, for research purposes), the sensual nature of the characters' physical interaction has absolutely *nothing* to do with what T'Pol and Trip are actually saying to each other. It's just about the most bizarre juxtapostion of visuals and dialogue that I have ever seen on a television show, with possible exception of Twin Peaks.

What *was* the director thinking?

Ginny, i disagree with you on just one point
david g -- 30 Sep 2001, 07:29 GMT

Hoshi--i think she's cool, and thank God she's there...i loved VOY for its marvellous women characters, and Im glad that ENT at least has two interesting ladies onborad.

david g

I have to admit that I was surprised when so many folks...
Ginny -- 30 Sep 2001, 13:37 GMT

...commented about how much they liked Hoshi, david. She made a much less favorable first impression on me, and a second viewing hasn't really raised her stock with me. Actually, Reed's the one that I found most interesting on second viewing (except for T'Pol and Trip as a pair). I hope we find out a lot more about him in the next episode.

Ditto on Reed, Ginny
david g -- 30 Sep 2001, 14:27 GMT

He was a surprisingly gentle and also wryly funny aspect of the premiere.

It's kind of interesting that another rather maternal, almost androgynous male figure, PHlox, is onboard again...I grew to love Neelix deeply, but he was by far the most unpopular character on VOY for a is fascinating to me that he seems to have been reproduced for ENT in Phlox, albeit in more confident and poised form.

david g

Re: Did anyone watch BB again tonight? Did a second viewing change your mind about anything?
Sue_B -- 30 Sep 2001, 18:24 GMT


Well I taped it the first time but literally kept falling asleep everytime I tried to watch. I blame it more on my busy life than the show, but then again, I can't imagine ever falling asleep during Caretaker. Unforgettable, yes. Caretaker, no.

Having said all that, when I actually saw the whole thing my thoughts were:

1) The dialog has GOT to be improved. TNG was stilted at the start as well. Perhaps this is just the "trying too hard" first episode phenomena. If it hasn't improved by mid-season, were are in real trouble. They need to eliminate some of the swearing. The "ass" and "bitch" words were were simply not value-added. Got the impression they were trying for "gritty". Missed.

2) Catsuit & Wig (C&W). I say we start an anti-C&W league. The wig alone makes her already brooding face look positively Cro-Magnon. Yeesh.

3) On the contrary, I did like Hoshi. She seemed to get some of the best lines. I did, however, scream at the screen when they "rescued" the damsel in distress. Puhleese. Let's drop that little bit of continuity to TOS.

4) Phlox. Seems to me he could be part Cardassian. I imagine they could explore a dark side with him quite effectively.

Just my thoughts. I couldn't comment on the board until I actually watched the whole thing.


It made my mind certain of one thing
Sherry -- 30 Sep 2001, 20:34 GMT

I want to join the Anti-C&W league. If we have to compromise, I can take or leave the wig. But that catsuit has to go!


Broken Bow: Take Two
Terry -- 1 Oct 2001, 00:59 GMT

  • I liked the opening credits better this time. The song is still boring but the visuals are excellent.
  • Found the scene where Porthos climbs T'Pol's leg even funnier given how much a cleanliness freak she turns out to be, as we saw later when she ate.
  • It seems obvious that Archer was deliberately trying to provoke T'Pol with those two enormous steaks he and Trip ate.
  • "Next time I find you've been holding something back, ..." Duh, the only way you'd find that out would be if she eventually did reveal it. Sounds like you gave her good incentive to keep stuff secret, not reveal it.
  • Mayweather and the Brit are too irresponsible to be allowed loose on away missions. They spent time ogling erotic dancers instead of searching for clues about Klang.
  • T'Pol warned the crew against intimate contact. Only Archer didn't follow that advice.
  • Despite Archer's prejudice against Vulcans, he trusted T'Pol more than Trip when it came to locating the transport pod in the storm.
  • The "blue" scene: Ginny's right, it is more fun with the sound turned down. ;-)
  • Trip rubbed no part of T'Pol's body that she could not easily have reached herself. He covered every part of her back except the difficult area between the shoulder blades.
  • What is that British guy's name? They never seem to call him anything but "Hey you!". :-) All I could pick up is that he's a left-tenant. (Okay, I consulted the net and his name is Reed.)
  • Why did Archer pick the chief engineer to pilot the Suliban ship to the Helix? No engineering skills were required then and Trip is a poor pilot.
  • Still liked Hoshi, Trip, and T'Pol.
  • While the dialogue had some problems and Archer and T'Pol's interactions were consistently interesting, I thought their final scene was very good. That was the first time that I felt Archer was sympathetic and that T'Pol's attitude really worked.
  • Although T'Pol does seem to be almost smiling much of the time, in a way that is just as much a mask as if her face was blank. Since she has that same semi-smirk no matter what. You still get the feeling that she's not revealing much of what she's feeling.

Yove inspired me to take another look, Terry
david g -- 1 Oct 2001, 01:07 GMT

Ive already made my reservations (centering mainly on one character) all too clear...! but i am going to give BB another lok before FOF.

i must say, Reed was so appealing to me. Trip? ehh. but i loved the "blue" scene. like, a lot.

david g

Opening Credits
Ruth -- 1 Oct 2001, 01:33 GMT

Terry wrote: "I liked the opening credits better this time. The song is still boring but the visuals are excellent."

Okay, I've finally seen the much discussed opening. The song is definitely forgettable. However, I also loved the visuals. Caveat: they're not "Trek." The other three sequels have followed the TOS model, and this one isn't. Second Caveat: I also loved the VOY opening credits -- a great theme that really corresponded to the "theme" of the show.

But, song aside, I also think the use of the old maps and footage of flight and space pioneers really give a nice feel to the show, which is a look back at the "history" of Starfleet and space exploration. I really liked the feel of them.


Opening Credits GREAT; Opening song TERRIBLE! nim
david g -- 1 Oct 2001, 02:57 GMT

Me three for Reed!
Janey -- 1 Oct 2001, 08:17 GMT

I had to look his name up after my first airing and that bugged me. So naturally I kept my eye on him the second time around.

He does a good imitation of Trip! :D

But Hoshi's a School Teacher!!! :p
Eric -- 1 Oct 2001, 16:47 GMT

Everyone forgets that about poor Hoshi! :p

She does NOT have the training of a Kira, B'elanna or Janeway!

Yes, i want her to get a little more agressive also but for now i like this Hoshi! :)

If she is still this uncertain at the end of the season then we will talk about this again! :cool:


Re: Broken Bow: Take Two
Sherry -- 2 Oct 2001, 02:49 GMT

  • "I liked the opening credits better this time. The song is still boring but the visuals are excellent."

I agree on both counts. The good news is that the visuals are more memorable than the song is obnoxious. (I talked to my sister after we both watched it Sunday night, and she commented on how good the visuals were.)

  • "Found the scene where Porthos climbs T'Pol's leg even funnier given how much a cleanliness freak she turns out to be, as we saw later when she ate."

This was hilarious on the second viewing!

  • "Why did Archer pick the chief engineer to pilot the Suliban ship to the Helix? No engineering skills were required then and Trip is a poor pilot."

Good question! I asked the same thing when I saw that. On the second viewing, I wanted Maywether to step in front and INSIST on going. The Enterprise would certainly have found him more dispensible than the chief engineer.

Another example of Enterprise being a step backwards.
Malcom -- 2 Oct 2001, 13:44 GMT

There didn't appear to be any Soviet/Russian space footage in the opening credit sequence. Alan Shepard - yes. Yuri Gagaran - no. No Mir (stop laughing) either. A real oversight. Even TOS made an effort to include the Russkies. It actually would have been cool for Enterprise to have included a Russian actor in the cast.

Another thing that would be interesting...
Ginny -- 2 Oct 2001, 15:47 GMT if one of the crew was a practitioner of one of the world's major religions. Particularly if the passage of 150 years has made some significant change in that religion.

Dont think theyd ever touch that, Ginny
david g -- 3 Oct 2001, 03:35 GMT

we will only ever get metaphorical religions like The Founders and the Prophets, or superb quasi-religious eps like SACRED GROUND.

david g

Just Saw Broken Bow . . . And I Really Liked It.
Michelle -- 23 Oct 2001, 21:16 GMT

First you'll have to excuse my lateness. My mother sent me the tape and I've only gotten to watch it once. People around here heard about it and it's been loaned out since! American Forces Network (AFN) swears it will run it though . . . right after the final season of Voyager, which started Saturday!!

The opening theme had great visuals. The music was . . . okay. I'm telling you though, I can't hear "Magic Carpet Ride" without thinking of ST:FC so what do I know?

I like the premise of Enterprise and the way things are "retro." The Vulcans are waaaaay more emotional than later shows; beginning with the Ambassador and his outrage that Humans would go against the Vulcan "logic" about the Klingon. That's why I think T'Pol is pretty online at this point. I don't agree with some that she should be more "Spock-like." She came before . . . she makes the mold.

And as for the "Tripster." HUBBA HUBBA! Those who know me as a Chakoholic . . . there's a new boy in town. Not that I would EVER forsake my Chakotay, but a girl's gotta go on, you know. ;-) I mean he did choose that "# Chick" after all. Not to mention that I'm a die-hard J-C'er.

And Miss Ginny - I cannot, for the life of me, figure out a "Southern" version of my name so I may join the "Trip" club. Any assistance would be greatly appreciated.


Tim Holden -- 23 Oct 2001, 22:48 GMT

I loved it too.

I liked the rough edges to the technology and to the characters. It shows that the human race still has a long way to go until you get to the sterile PC world of Voyager or even TNG. It gives the series some room for growth. We will gradually see predudices receed and understanding grow. I think the tension between them and Vulcans was understandable. Makes the show interesting too. They were holding us back and we did not like being treated like children.

Lets face it in a few years time it will be Starfleet doing the same to other civilizations! They will gradually spoon feed them technology as they think they are ready for it. Its a nice spin on the Prime Directive!


Michelle, if you were a man, it would be a simple choice:
Ruth -- 24 Oct 2001, 18:59 GMT

Mike Bob. I suppose any variation of Shelley (second name of choice) would fit. Shelley Lee, Shelley Elizabeth, Shelley Ann, maybe even Shelley Bob.

I also kind of like the brassier, "Texas Chelle," which would make you sound like the owner of a seedy bar down in Del Rio.

I'll try and think some more, but welcome to the Trip lover's club!

Anna Ruthanne

Shelley okay, although I always think of that ditzy blonde....
Virginnie -- 25 Oct 2001, 15:56 GMT

...on Northern Exposure when I hear it.

Of course, you could always stick a flower name on the front--Rose Michelle or Lily Michelle--for that high-bred southern belle cache`.

:cool: yes! got Broken Bow
tragic fan -- 11 Nov 2001, 09:55 GMT

Just when I thought I was going to have to wait until mid-Jan to see the ENT pilot I managed to get my very own copy. Now I just have to find the time to watch it :rolleyes: I am looking forward to checking out Trip.

I did take a sneak peek at the title sequence and was pleasantly surprised: I thought that the visuals were wonderful and the theme song wasn't too bad (I liked the lyrics but could have down without the power ballad rendition).


I'll be very interested to read what you think of the pilot, tf.
Virginnie -- 11 Nov 2001, 20:47 GMT

And of our Brave Boys in Blue Underoos.

Let us know what you think, dear tf! :) NIM
david g -- 12 Nov 2001, 05:23 GMT

im also a fan of them Blue Underoos.


where do I sign up Virginnie?
fanny mae tragic -- 14 Nov 2001, 10:43 GMT

I'll post my thoughts on the pilot when I've got a bit more time but I just had to say that Trip was terrific (thank goodness I don't actually have to *say* that phrase at the moment--far too tired to enunciate). And hasn't Scott Bakula aged well. Either that or those mighty fine blue undies have magical properties ;-)


Love the name, Fannie Mae Tragic! NIM
Ruth -- 14 Nov 2001, 14:08 GMT

Consider yourself signed up, Fannie Mae.
Virginnie -- 14 Nov 2001, 15:40 GMT

I'm with Ruth--great name. I see many finely crafted bodice-rippers in your future. 8)

tf on Broken Bow
tragic fan -- 18 Nov 2001, 03:14 GMT

Well, here goes. First, disclaimer: I've only watched the ep once and, aside from reading the initial discussion on "Broken Bow", I haven't been following the Neb comments on ENT very closely.

OPENING THEME: When I heard that ENT was having a theme *song* I was dismayed. When it was rumoured to be written by Rod Stewart I thought it was a horrible April Fool's stunt. Now I think it was one of TPTB's smartest moves, along with the stirring visuals: they're a complete break from tradition yet the lyrics are very mcuh what Trek is about for me. While we're on the subject of visuals, I loved the sketches of the various Enterprise incarnations in Archer's quarters.

STORY: For me this was the weakest element of the pilot. I guess I was so focused on "getting" the characters that the plot just washed over me. The confrontation looked great but just how *did* Archer defeat the chief Suliban guy? Hopefully I just missed something-if not, I would love TPTB to do a B5/Farscape and explain things (eventually).

MAYWEATHER: Ho-hum. Bland. Grew Up In Space Guy.

PHLOX: His cheesy grin unsettled me on occasion but overall I liked his enthusiasm for encountering aliens and their exotic maladies.

HOSHI: She should annoy the hell out of me, what with her jumpiness and screaming, but she doesn't. I think there's a backbone underneath all that space newbieness.

ARCHER: He actually *did* annoy the hell out of me for most of the ep. I couldn't believe how rude he was to Vulcans. What was worse-the Starfleet brass let him get away with it! Is that how officers are supposed to behave? He did redeem himself at the end by asking T'Pol to become Science Officer, particularly since he explained why and how he was going to make the arrangements.

REED: A close second in my ENT Hottie Stakes. His English accent was also a nice change from the rest of the cast's and I liked his restrained Brit humour/irony/sarcasm. Dominic Keating made a lot of his screen time. I'm still puzzling over the look on his face during the butterfly dancer scene. I'll be really disappointed if TPTB neglect this character.

T'POL: I don't envy Jolene Blalock trying to make this character her own. My Voyager-watching Mum, who knew very little about ENT before she saw the pilot, said half-way though "Broken Bow": "Who does that woman think she is--Seven? As if!" We did both warm to her by the end, thank goodness. I get the impression that her superiority complex is as much a defence mechanism as a Vulcan trait. The breadstick incident cracked me up completely. It's the kind of cringeworthy stunt I'd pull to prove a point, except that she eventually succeeded whereas I usually end up looking like a stubborn git ;-) Does T'Pol have a thing for Archer? I kept getting that niggling vibe towards the end of the ep but I may just have been disoriented because of...

TRIP: My Number One ENT hottie. This guy just oozes charm (in a non-sleazy way). I grinned stupidly every time he was on (even when he was fully clothed ;-) ) Apologies to all Flyboy fans, but for me Trip has the potential to be what Tom Paris could have been. Trip's interaction with Archer also made the Captain a bit more likable and even Mayweather was interesting in his sweet spot scene with Trip.

I enjoyed "Broken Bow" and look forward to watching it a few more times, but it didn't grab me like the pilots for DS9 (I was hooked by the concept of The Prophets) and VOY (edge-of-the-seat adventure). The characters and concept do seem to have a lot of potential so, bottom line: I'll be back for more!


TF, im eager to hear your thoughts throughout
david g -- 18 Nov 2001, 05:22 GMT

i think you have a wonderfully balanced view...i also love the way you exonerated Tpol for the breadstick scene!

i have my theories, expressed in another thread, about the source of Reed's ambiguity in the butterfly scene.

i think Bakula is struggling w/the Archer, a LOT.

david g

TKS -- 18 Nov 2001, 10:51 GMT

My guess he is trying to be too much like Captain Kirk, and so he doesn't seem to have a character of his own yet. I'll give him a little more time to find himself.

Captain Kirk was bit of a maverik, and so is Archer. The Captians of the twenty-fourth century have years of Starfleet experience behind them, whereas this is a new thing for Captain Archer, which doesn't bode well for Captian Kirk I might add, since Kirk should have had at least one hundred years of Starfleet experience behind him.

Maybe Captains Archer/Kirk are the Captains that the Captians of the twenty-fourth century drawl upon. Meaning when to come out with phasers drawn, and when diplomacy would best difuse the situation. Well it could be that the twenty-fourth century captians are too stuffy. ;-)


Good to hear your impressions, tf.
Virginnie -- 19 Nov 2001, 00:39 GMT

The Trip Tucker Fan Club is pleased to welcome you into the fold. So, what did you think of the decon scene? And keep it clean--there are youngsters reading. 8)

One word: phwoarrr!
tragic fan -- 19 Nov 2001, 01:38 GMT

(if that's a word)

Actually, I was glad I knew it was coming because otherwise I would have wondered what on earth was going on. It kinda reminded me of the X-Files pilot where Scully suddenly takes off her shirt. At least the ENT established that away missions just couldn't rely on the transporters to filter out the nasties.

Our local UPN affiliate ran "Broken Bow" last night
D -- 15 Sep 2002, 19:28 EST

There wasn't anything else on so I watched it again. I actually liked it better than the first time, maybe from seeing how the characters developed throughout the season. Still not as good as "Caretaker" but definitely beats "Farpoint" as a series premire, IMO.

I like Broken Bow.
Jules -- 16 Sep 2002, 09:19 EST

It's probably the episode I've seen the most, simply because for a while I was the only person I know who had it... and all my sci-fi liking friends came around in turn to see it and I watched it again alongside them.

I think "Caretaker" will take a lot of beating as a series premiere, simply because it managed to find itself a nice little story to tell - the Ocampans and their plight - as well as the setup for the series premise. And, while it introduced everybody to some degree, it put some characters on the back burner a little - for instance, B'Elanna, who didn't really get a focus as engineering genius until the second episode which revolved around her getting the Chief Engineer role - and focussed on a few, which made it a more intimate Special Occasion episode than most. My biggest disappointment is that the entire series didn't turn out to be as much the Janeway and Paris show as that first episode was. :-( And that they started to forget to write Chakotay's wicked sense of humour after the first few episodes.

But, back to "Broken Bow". It doesn't mess around with Higher Beings or Wormhole Aliens putting the puny Starfleet officers on trial to see if they measure up. The people looking down on them are the Vulcans, and we know that they have their flaws too. Somehow the mission encharged to Archer and his crew seems to be something that's actually within their grasp. I liked what we saw of the crew at that point, I liked the hinted-at triumvirate of Archer, Trip and T'Pol as a latter day Kirk, McCoy and Spock equivalent... similar but different. I even liked Archer as the Vulcan distrusting grouch; but then I like to see a little conflict in my crews. It was one of the things I liked best about DS9, that they weren't just one big happy family with identical goals, and it's one of the things I regret most about Voyager... that they let the Starfleet/Maquis conflict die away too quickly.

I don't think that the writers have always developed their Enterprise characters wisely since, but I definitely liked the potential that was there in "Broken Bow" and hope that it might shine through some more next season. Which I'll be watching. It ain't perfect, but it's as watchable as some of the other shows I'm watching.

:agree: :)
Tim Holden -- 16 Sep 2002, 12:02 EST

Broken Bow is fine. I really like the fact that the human race is still a bit rough around the edges in terms of their attitudes, particularly towards the Vulcans.

Thats what the series is about. Mankind improving him/herself by learning about other cultures, overcoming pre-conceptions. Archer and T'Pol start off as chalk and cheese but already they are building mutual respect. Then there will be understanding, appreciation and eventually a bond of friendship.

They have not got into any deep issues yet like other series. One of my beefs about Voyager is that some of the "issue" eps beat you over the head with the point so many times that you ended up not caring at all! (another freakin hologram rights ep anyone! Yawn!!). I think they have probably pushed the balance a little too far the other way but I am sure it will find an equilibrium.

Archer is not a great military leader. Maybe that is something he will have to learn the hard way. All of them are essentially rookies. What is his background? It seems to me he was selected because of his connections with the Warp5 engine program rather than for his inate command ability.

Right now they are just having fun watching the crew make lots of mistakes and leaning from them. There is no holier than thou prime directive but the essence of it is gradually forming week by week. Its enough to keep my VCR taping each ep. :)