The Coffee Nebula Board is for the discussion of Star Trek: Voyager and other sci-fi/cult shows. This is its Archive of episode discussions, top ten lists, fan fiction, and other miscellaneous musings.


Shadows Of P'Jem

:tv: ENTERPRISE: "Shadows of P'Jem" Discussion Area...
SuzyQ -- 6 Feb 2002, 20:33 EST

...Archer and the crew are disappointed to discover that T'Pol has been ordered by the Vulcan High Command to leave the Enterprise and equally frustrated at her seeming indifference to leaving their ranks. T'Pol's last mission as a Starfleet officer, however, proves eventful when she and Archer are kidnapped by a militant faction on an alien planet and find themselves once again at the mercy of the volatile Andorians.

Guest Cast: Jeffrey Combs as Shran Stephen Lee as Klingon Captain Vaughn Armstrong as Admiral Forrest Gary Graham as Soval Steven Dennis as Tholos Barbara Tarbuck as Chancellor Kalev Jeff Kober as Traeg

Creative staff: Director: Mike Vejar Story By: Rick Berman & Brannon Braga Teleplay By: Mike Sussman & Phyllis Strong

Some VERY exciting Shadows!
Eric -- 6 Feb 2002, 22:52 EST

Quick Non Spoiler Take : Where do i start? How about with the obvious? Brannon and Rick have a plan, when i saw their names i was HOPING for another big "arc" story and boy did we get it! With Shadows we turn the page and we see the gathering storm. FutureGuy and his enemies are moving their chess pieces i think. _________________________________

SPOILERS Shran and the Andorians protect :











While it's true that so far the two main stories, the Temporal War and the Vulcan/Androrian war are so far officialy unconnected i am becoming more and more convinced that they ARE two parts of the same puzzle.

Daniels seemed to suggest that dissent and chaos are exactly what FutureGuy and Silik want. Or maybe his side wants it? We just don't know but somebody is pushing the Andorians buttons (antenna? ).

Into this mix we find out that T'Pol is being pulled off the ship. Now i knew, you probebly knew and everybody knew that this would not happen so the question becomes how does Archer stop this? And the story worked, and worked damn well.

After the last few episodes Archer is defenetly growing on me and here i finaly get the kind of Captain he is and now i really like the guy. It's still not love, but i REALLY like him now. I liked him messing with Trip's head, i liked him really reaching out to T'Pol and finaly understanding what makes her tick and i liked him blowing off the Vulcan Captain.

Everyone else was in support this week but they all had strong scenes.....well accept for Mayweather, but he doesn't count.

And i'm not sure what it was, maybe Linda grew along with Hoshi last week but Hoshi looked exceptionaly yummy in her scenes this week.

Once again this episode leaves things open and ripe for a followup but i don't mind, we haven't seen this side of Star Trek since DS9 and i LOVE having it again!

I'm going to give this one a 10/10 as well! Which means that i think i'm going to have to start being a little tougher in my Enterprise grades! But i'll give them a free ride this week!

Next Week : Shuttle Pod One and my GOD was that an amazing Trailer or WHAT??????



Re:"Shadows of P'Jem".
Deb47 -- 7 Feb 2002, 07:23 EST

You know, I would have liked this ep quite a lot, if not for one scene.

I'm trying to forget it, and focus on other stuff that was much better.


Since this is an equal opportunity show, do you think we'll see a scene where Hoshis's face is buried in Malcolm's...


No... that's too much like another YAM wishfullfilment.

Maybe I should stop now and finish with:

I REALLY wish that scene wasn't played that way....

and leave it at that.


I would have never forgiven TPTB had they done that to Janeway or Torres or even Seven.

Not sure why I'm giving them a second chance here, maybe because the rest of the show rose above that sophomoric slapstick?




Or maybe I should take a page from BB's finale of "Unimatrix Zero" that replayed last night.

"I don't compromise with Boors."


My question is...
D'Alaire -- 7 Feb 2002, 07:35 EST

(and I'm just jotting down thoughts before having to run without editing--I may qualify some of this later)

...this: Why do they feel the need to take a potentially character building scene (in a potentially character building scenario) and turn it into a breast-fest? The whole thing with them wrangling in duct tape... :rolleyes: really didn't do much for me, and distracted from everything else that was going on.

Much as the decon-gel scene was pretty on an equal-opportunity level, the good conversation seemed secondary to the visuals. Same thing, here. Archer had a great line in there somewhere, commenting on his father's loss due to the Vulcans, and that he didn't want the same thing happening with T'Pol. That was good stuff, but what I really remember about the scene was not their reactive expressions or gestures (which I know I've been spoiled by on Voyager), but T'Pol landing cleavage-first in Archer's face. Pity.

Thankfully, their characters (T'Pol in particular) were pretty good otherwise this week, even if there was nothing new or surprising in it.

I liked seeing Combs again. His agitated insomniac Andorian was nice to see again--I liked him even better this time around. His sense of honor in repaying his debt was almost comical--and in a good way. Trip, Hoshi and Reed were a good team on the ship, and Phlox was his usual witty/wise self. My favorite part was Hoshi's "I'm sorry he's not available. Can I take a message?" Trip's [paraphrasing] "I'm getting real tired of people cutting me off," was much worth s smile, too. I like him a lot in the command chair.

Trip and Reed getting b*tch-slapped in the alley (doi!) was mite bit convenient--I'd have thought them a little smarter than that. Ah well. They had to get them to the Andorians. (shrug) But I also found it interesting that the universal translators seemed to work wonderfully during this episode, particularly with the terrorist group. I guess their UT's are far better than Starfleet's. Yeah, that has to be it. ;)

I should mention, I'm not saying the ep sucked. It was rather good in spots, with the crew comraderie, Comb's sleepless on Andoria, and it was nice to see some running themes pop back in for a visit. But the duct-tape distraction was silly, and the seemingly endless attempt to make the Vulcans look like creeps with selective logic use problems continues to bother me.

And did we get anything out of the AOTW aside from the fact they were AOTW with more familiar faces mixing in their affairs? Guess this another pop to the theme. It was nice to see Dodger (Jeff Kober) again, though. :)

One other thing before I go: If Archer couldn't understand T'Pol's reasoning in six months when he could read a spotty database and learn what he needed to know about dealing with Klingons in a few hours...I dunno, but something doesn't quite work about that for me. Now of course he was right that she was giving up too quickly, but he seemed to have no comprehension of her POV. (shaking head) Smells like stretching for the sake of plotting to me, though it can be explained away as Archer being too personally involved to distance himself that this plot, after he understood for a moment why the Vulcans held back tech from Humans.... Ah well.

Next week looks good. I agree with Eric--Great promo. This one, I do have hopes for, getting those two theatre actors going n monologues. :)

I don't see why you're so upset by the "breast-fest".
Terry -- 7 Feb 2002, 07:59 EST

ENTERPRISE has been inserting little gratutious sex into most of the episodes with those decon scenes. The only difference is the degree.

Real quick.
Nina -- 7 Feb 2002, 08:07 EST

Hated: Archer's little speech about the Vulcans taking away something that was very important to his father, and he wasn't going to let the same thing happen to him. Since when is T'Pol a "thing"? I hope he was talking about his concept of her honor, her professional reputation, etc., and was railing against her being recalled in apparent disgrace. But that's not how the line came out, from my viewpoint, anyway. (I'm not touching the breast-fest. It's been said. Yes.)

Loved: T'Pol's "it would violate my doctor's orders" excuse for not leaving sickbay to return to Vulcan. The sleepless Andorian; finally this species is getting rounded out! (On "Enterprise," I mean.) I'm really getting to like T'Pol, and Blalock playing her.

Now back to connection working properly today. YES!!!!

Breast-Fests and Things....
Eric -- 7 Feb 2002, 09:25 EST

You know these didn't bother me at all.

Granted it was obvious i saw it coming from miles away and still got a chuckle out of it. What made it ok in my book was how uncomfortable Archer was and at the same time how much he enjoyed it. Archer's only human after all! ;)

I also LOVED Archer speech about how important T'Pol was to him! Come on guys, give him a break. I like this Archer MUCH more then the bitter Archer from Broken Bow.


The episode with multiple personalities.
Ronit -- 7 Feb 2002, 09:32 EST

What a fascinating mix. It was---

"Horrible 'Shipper Fanfic Inspired, Guaranteed"; I could hear dozens of cringeworthy fics being conceived during each frame of the breast-fest and other scenes.

Yet it also included one of the best portrayals of interplanetary politics I've ever seen (on non-DS9 Trek), lifted straight out of the Cold War.

Then there's the newest of my all-time favorite shots: the shadow of the Andorian's antennae seen during the breakin. Very, very cool.

Again, they're making good use of the ensemble. The Gang of Four (Reed, Tucker, Sato, Merryweather) is a lot of fun to watch. It's easy to care about these guys. Though I do wish Tucker would cut down on the yelling.

Archer & T'Pol still leave me unmoved and often unconvinced. All around them, the show is coming together. Hopefully they too will fall into place.


It also emphasized something Eric said...
malcom -- 7 Feb 2002, 09:54 EST

and that is that Reed has the makings of a far better captain than Archer or Tucker. In the scene where they are talking to the Vulcans on-screen, who among us didn't wish that Reed was the responsible adult here, not Tucker?

:agree: !!!!, Eric....the trailer for "Shuttlepod One" looks great!!!
Mindy -- 7 Feb 2002, 11:00 EST

I just hope it's not a case of "the best parts are in the trailer"....


Re: :tv: "Shadows of P'Jem"...I'm with Eric on this one! :-D :agree:
Mindy -- 7 Feb 2002, 11:11 EST

I am loving this show more and more as each week its "sea legs" become more and more steady!

This show is turning into a real ensemble piece, I think, with everyone (well, except for Mayweather, poor guy) getting a piece of the pie. It seems to be becoming a hybrid of DS9 and VOYAGER, with a little bit of the "cowboy diplomacy & politics" of TOS thrown in--I read that Braga finally sat down and watched all the TOS episodes, I think he learned from it, I really do, I think he gets what made us all fall in love with ST...

The character relationships set against the science fiction background, not the other way around!!!

As Eric said, we all know T'Pol wasn't going anywhere, but the enjoyment was in watching how she "didn't go anywhere."

I loved the scene where they were tied up and worked together to get loose...the "breasts against his face" thing didn't bother me at all, it didn't feel gratuitous, frankly, in that kind of situation, breasts in his face would be the last thing Archer would be thinking about--though perhaps later on, safe and sound in his cabin, he might daydream a bit about it! :-)

I liked the small attention to detail...the hood over their heads so they wouldn't know where they were, giving them the food, but letting them figure out how to eat just felt more "real" than any "they are prisoners" set-up I've seen before on any STAR TREK show.

One thing I'd like to long is T'Pol going to keep the "Spock Neck Pinch" secret from her captain?

Don't know if Eric is right that the Future Guy storyline and the Vulcan/Andorian storyline are going to mesh together down the road, but it's an interesting idea.

BTW, wasn't Corrigan (spelling?) featured in "Journey to Babel?" Wasn't that the planet that had petitioned for membership in Federation, and there were problems with the mining rights?

Anyway, another great show!!!!!!


The "breast-fest" didn't bother me at all. (nim)
Mindy -- 7 Feb 2002, 11:15 EST

It's not the sex, it's the "sophomoric slapstick".
Ronit -- 7 Feb 2002, 11:44 EST

Deb47's phrase sums it up perfectly.

Sophomoric slapstick has its place, and that scene would have been fine in, I don't know, "Friends" or another sitcom, but it didn't fit in here.

Comparing it to the much hotter and much funnier scenes in Buffy ("Gone"), which had me rolling around, howling in laughter, it just seems so . . pathetically juvenile.


That's it, exactly, Ronit and Deb. NIM
Nina -- 7 Feb 2002, 12:05 EST

I'm not upset, for one.
D'Alaire -- 7 Feb 2002, 12:44 EST

Because it bothers me and it's not my thing, that doesn't mean it "upsets" me. It means I don't like distractions inside of scenes I feel deserve or require better attention. I know ENT's been doing it from day one. I just like it when the cues are subtle and clever, not duct tape and decon gel.

Just my preference.

And I can't say it's the "sexual" thing. I among others have been pointing out the cheapy shots masquerading as direction and blocking, &c., for years. (snort! How can I forget the strategically flashing bulbs at the onset of Drone?) But it's more a cynic's pleasure than any feeling of insult or what-not. I smirk at it more than anything.

However, if I find myself distracted from the subject matter (particularly when it's seemingly important to the working plot), and when the ep is over and I remember the "gratuity" (situation) more than the content, emotion and expressions that might have really sold the scene, then I take points off the ep overall and say it didn't do anything for me. Rather the opposite.


Archer on T'Pol
Sherry -- 7 Feb 2002, 13:02 EST

I don't think Archer was talking about T'Pol as a "thing." My first impression was that he opposed the Vulcans seeing her in some kind of disgrace. She's become a member of his crew, along with Reed, Trip, Hoshi and the others, not just an interchangeable figure on the bridge.

I loved the way T'Pol declined to leave sickbay against her doctor's orders, too! I missed the first ten or fifteen minutes of the episode, so I didn't entirely understand what was going on. But I like the interactions among the various characters!


Continuity :agree:
D -- 7 Feb 2002, 13:48 EST

I missed the beginning, came in where Archer is telling T'Pol she's being transferred because of the P'Jem mess. I'll have to catch it on Sunday's rerun.

Maybe Braga is finally paying attention to all the griping about the lack of continuity in Voyager.

Between "Dear Doctor" and this I get the definite impression that Enterprise's run will give us "The Birth of the Federation" as well as the Prime Directive. They seem to be setting up a situation where humans working with both the Andorians and Vulcans will probably lead to Earth brokering a real peace treaty. The senior military leaders seem awfully trigger happy and obviously have government backing, which seems to indicate Vulcan isn't quite so evolved as they present to outsiders or as they'd be 100+ years later. T'Pol is hopefully indicative of middle rank Vulcans who will be willing to question their governments actions when they have more information about what's really going on.

T'Pol once again shows that, while Vulcans usually don't lie, they can and will in certain circumstances. As well as eat with their fingers when they have to :). And she's definitely getting better at reading the crew and "going with the flow". She obviously didn't want to be transferred; unlikely they'll raise that again. She'll just stay on Enterprise at her current rank - no way is she going to get promoted and if she'd gone home she would have been lucky to just be demoted and not cashiered.

This was the second show I saw this week with a faked "you're breaking up", hang up, to stop an unwanted conversation. From hand crank phones to walkie talkies to cell phones to subspace - some techniques never change.

Next Week: Looks interesting but I sense a reset button.

An unfortunate choice of words (on Archer's part), then.
Nina -- 7 Feb 2002, 14:24 EST

Since that's what he said, unless memory is failing me again. He came off, from where I was sitting, differently than from where you and Eric were. Still just not getting it, that T'Pol is never going to "turn into a human" (which seems to be what he wants from her?), which together with his choice of words made him seem more possessive than caring to me.

But that's the one real negative, for me, in a pretty darn good episode. The other thing (I don't even wanna name it, at this point!) was a nit. An annoyance. Nothing worse. :-)

I can't resist posting this link...
Nina -- 8 Feb 2002, 21:00 EST

and hope it'll give most folks a laugh, without giving offense to others. It's from the Star Trek Books Board, but it's a "Shadows of P'Jem" post. By the infamous (DON'T ASK!) "Bobatiel," to who I am forever "the Maine-iac."

Ronit -- 8 Feb 2002, 23:14 EST

Thanks so much, Nina. Now we finally know what they were doing....


**sigh** I hate not getting to see Enterprise until Saturday.
G'Inny -- 9 Feb 2002, 21:44 EST

So little time on this board is actually spent talking about ENT anymore that, if you don't get in on the discussion the first couple of days, you pretty much miss it all.

However, I'm hardly one to let that stop me. 8)

Here's what I thought in a nutshell--moderately entertaining, but a most inefficient use of dramatic time. It was nice to see a little carry through from previous eps, and some interesting hints were given about what's really going on between the Andorians and the Vulcans, but so much time was wasted with Archer and T'Pol trying to get untied--which was all for naught--and with that more-gratuitous-than-usual firefight at the end that I was left with the feeling that I had only seen a little over half of a pretty good episode.

--Like many others, I thought shoving Archer's face into T'Pol's breasts was unnecessary. But I also happen to think that keeping Trip and Malcolm clothed for the majority of their scenes is unnecessary, so really--who am I to judge?

--More excellent interaction between Phlox and T'Pol, but Phlox has excellent interaction with pretty much anyone he talks to.

--Trip either needs a spanking and a nap or a refresher course on being in command. Stamping your foot and raising your voice is not a command style. It's a temper tantrum.

--I must say that I found the idea of a Vulcan commando squad very intersting...and just a little bit frightening.

--Snaps to D'Alaire for referring to the Jeffrey Combs character as "Sleepless in Andoria". I liked the idea that Andorians--or at least this one Andorian--believe in quid pro quo, that generosity or assistance creates an obligation to return a favor in kind.

{spoiler for next week} /










Next week looks ver-r-r-r-ry interesting. Trip and Malcolm, trapped together in the close confines of a space shuttle with a limited supply of oxygen and nary a razor between them. My, oh my, oh my. And great will be the fan fiction written thereof.

LOL, G'Inny!
Nina -- 10 Feb 2002, 09:02 EST

<<--Trip either needs a spanking and a nap or a refresher course on being in command. Stamping your foot and raising your voice is not a command style. It's a temper tantrum.>>

True enough.

Hey! I don't get to see it till tonight!
Tesha -- 10 Feb 2002, 16:42 EST

Have to wait till Sunday nights in the sticks of Wisconsin to see Enterprise. So, G'Inny we can have our own discussions at the end of the week! :D


I didn't get to see it until Sunday night
Vickie -- 11 Feb 2002, 09:08 EST

We were on the road to Tampa on Wednesday night. Thursday was the donkey and mule show at the state fair.

Of course I liked this episode. I was unreasonably excited over the fact that we had an episode that actually referred back to a previous episode *and* showed that in this version of the Star Trek world, actions have consequences.

As for the breasts-in-the-face scene, yeah, I saw that coming a mile away. Shrug. The interesting thing about the scene, I thought, was the way it played out like Trip's and T'Pol's decon chamber scene - the visuals were overtly sexual, yet the dialog and demeanor were decidedly not.

I thought one of the most interesting lines in the whole show was when Archer, talking about T'Pol being reassigned, said something like, "The Vulcans took something that meant a lot to my father away from him, I'm not going to let them do the same thing to me." I didn't quite know what to make of that, and still haven't decided what I think. I'd be interested in hearing anyone else's thoughts on the subject.

Something else I'm finding interesting is ENT's portrayal of the Vulcans. Not quite the enlightened species we got to know in later Trek incarnations, are they? That doesn't bother me; after all, the Vulcans speak of having evolved into the superior beings they were in later day Treks, so clearly they must have evolved from some less perfect form. I kind of like seeing these earlier Vulcans.

The trailer for next weeks' episode sure looks interesting. LOL, Ginny about Trip and Malcolm all alone in the shuttlepod. Talk about your slash fan fic fests!


The Andorians came off much better in "Shadows of P'Jem"
david g -- 16 Feb 2002, 19:29 EST

Though ENT's record with the Vulcan-representation is very spotty...

For instance, i thought the Vulcans came off extremely well, ie, Vulcan like, in The Andrian Incident and Breaking the Ice...but here, that guy from COLD FRONT was such a HUMAN Vulcan i couldnt believe it.

the other icy guy a bit better but i think the Vulcans need way more garvity and dignity.

other than the fact that i continue to squirm through poor Bakula's performances, i enjoyed Shadows well enough...i just love Tpol...and i like the camraderie that's there--Phlox in the mess hall, Hoshi thwarting the Vulcan...Mike Vejar that talented dude does some good Archer-Tpol tied up slapstick, too.

What's with all the screaming, though? Trip shreiking to show he's mad just makes him look like a dumb-ass, in my view...and Archer screaming at Tpol when she shows no reaction to his report of her transfer much the same effect.

i think the Andorians shape up better relaly liking conflcit btwn Vulcans and Andorians--interesting to see how this one'll develop.

i just wish i *cared* a bit more, though, about ENT.


david g -- 16 Feb 2002, 19:31 EST

grrr, i continue to hate this "new" IBM keyboard...ive never come up with so many mispelt words!


Are you sure it's the keyboard ;-) NIM
Shadda -- 16 Feb 2002, 20:33 EST

Just kidding david!!!

If it's no the key-bored, Shadda...! :) NIM
david g -- 16 Feb 2002, 20:58 EST

Are you saying I'm boring......
Shadda -- 16 Feb 2002, 21:20 EST

What can I say, I have now had two glasses of wine and am feeling much better....far less strident. And apparently enamored with the dot dot dots I can make with the period key.

As for your post that is directly below this post, at least on my computer, no need to apologize, at least as far as I can tell. I agree with you as much as I disagree with you. I love to hear, or rather read, what you have to say. I never felt you were insisting I think like you do. Of course, you were probably not even thinking of me when you posted your post. Okay, I am no longer making any sense. It's only 6:30 is it too early to go to bed?


My old boss used to use this same excuse
Terry -- 16 Feb 2002, 21:51 EST

every time he screwed up with something using the computer: "Loose nut on the keyboard." :-)

Thanks shadda...and youre not boring in the least! :) NIM
david g -- 17 Feb 2002, 00:12 EST

Two glasses of wine...sounds like a good idea...just got through Moulin Rouge and a i need a stiff one.

Drink, that is.



Hee!!, really NIM
Shadda -- 17 Feb 2002, 12:48 EST

I still think Combs is overacting the role.
G'Inny -- 17 Feb 2002, 15:26 EST

The other guy playing an Andorian is much better.

But I suppose Jeff's under a little pressure. It's probably tough to have to follow up on two very successful and very distinctive Star Trek characterizations with yet a third, all the while having to say "pinkskins" with enough venom to acually make it sound like a racial slur. :rolleyes:

As for the Vulcans, I think they're simply suffering from a little cultural contamination. A hundred years of playing den mother to a whiny planet full of humans will do that to you.