Dear Doctor

ENT: "Dear Doctor" Discussion Thread...
SuzyQ -- 23 Jan 2002, 14:55 EST

...The crew discovers a new planet with two races, one in desperate need of medical and scientific assistance. In the course of trying to help, Dr. Phlox recalls his own Denobulan past to address the ethical dilemmas that arise in the present.

Director: James Contner Teleplay By: Maria Jacquemetton & Andre Jacquemetton

SuzyQ

Looking forward to it!
Eric -- 23 Jan 2002, 15:35 EST

Dr. Phlox is quickly climbing the ladder as a favorite character.

But then John Billingsly RULED in The Others!

Eric

Re: Looking forward to it!
Tesha -- 23 Jan 2002, 15:58 EST

Thank you! Its been driving me nuts, in a background sort of way, as to what John Billinsly played in. I don't do so well with names sometimes.

I'm looking forward to this ep as well. When I finally get to see it that is! Dr. Phlox, along with Reed, are indeed outshining the other characters, IMO.

I see you are playing refugee from Slipstream also!
Eric -- 23 Jan 2002, 16:17 EST

Man when they go down they go down HARD.

Here is my list of characters in order of coolness.

1) Malcom Reed - The very height of cool. This guy rocks in the realms that only Sisko, Garek, Kes and Riker with the Beard can reach.

2) Hoshi Sato - Linda Park has it all except the freaking airtime to do it in! Come on Brannon, she may not look like Jeri Ryan but for some of us that is ok ya know?

3) Phlox - I wanted to hate him for the bad makeup, and it is bad, but he easily rises above it!

4) Trip - Like Phlox he rises above his pretty boy status.

5) Archer - We have discussed this before, but yeah, to laid back, not take charge enough.

6) T'Pol - Well, she doesn't annoy as much as she did before....

7) That Guy Who Sits At The Helm - What was his name again?

Eric

Yeppers!
Tesha -- 23 Jan 2002, 17:53 EST

Actually, even if it wasn't down, I'd be over here. This is a much pleasanter board.

I'd disagree with your order just a bit.

1) Malcom Reed - I have to agree. He just rules.

2) Dr. Phlox - I think its the voice and mannerisms.

3) Hoshi - The character has grown on me. I like the non-Star Fleetness, seen in her more than the other characters.

4) Trip - He's proven, so far, to be far more than your average pretty boy.

5) T'Pol - If they would just change that horrid costume! She annoyed me at first. However, the character has grown on me.

6) Archer - If you ask me, he's just not captain material. Hopefully, that will change.

7) Mayweather (?) - Hard to have an opinion about a guy you never get to see.

Dear Doctor Mengele
Terry -- 23 Jan 2002, 21:09 EST

It's hard to believe but I was thinking that this was the best episode of Enterprise by far this year until the last ten minutes.

I've thought Doctor Phlox is an interesting character -- far too intelligent and curious to be labelled as a Doctor or a Neelix ripoff. I enjoyed the low-key pace of the episode and the point-of-view of Phlox's study of and relationships with members of the crew.

His scenes with his friend, with Hoshi, and with Archer and Porthos showed me an interesting side of this show that seems fresh and unlike the recent Treks.

I can deal with his decision wanting to keep the cure to himself. I don't like it. It disturbs me that he acts more like a scientist than a caregiver.

But Archer? What a bastard. James T. Kirk would kick his lily-livered butt out the airlock. Picard would agree intellectually and maybe do the same but only because the PD is the law in his time. Sisko would probably decide the V? were oppressing the Mank and ask the Doc to increase the disease's potency. Janeway would ... which one?

I despise this episode and the message that it communicates. Archer and Phlox didn't have to agree to help the V? but once they did, they had no right to keep a cure from them.

Phlox talked about evolution for the V? and the Mank like it was the destiny prescribed for them by God. I don't believe that at all. "There is no fate but what you make." Besides, evolution of a single species doesn't take place in a vacuum. Environment in this case includes species from other planets like humans.

What matters is helping people who are alive today, not choosing what level of intelligence people who will live tomorrow will possess.

I know that I'm not arguing very coherently here but this episode just pissed me off! Archer is a worthless....

Dear me!
D'Alaire -- 23 Jan 2002, 21:17 EST

It's about time I found myself interested through an entire ep.

But of course, I've liked Phlox from the start, I really like Hoshi, and I've been anxious to see Cutler again, since I got that spoiler. All of these parts were very well done, and it really was nice to get to know Phlox. The more I learn about him, the better he gets. Billingsley really does have the best role on the show, IMO.

Loved Cutler here, her honesty and cute-factor and "let's just see how it goes." Hoshi and her translations--I really enjoyed her talk with Phlox at the table.

There was also an interesting dilemma to deal with, and though the Menk (sp?) were a lot more interesting than the (Va--?), I enjoyed these AOTW, too. Og course, they got predictable when they answered T'Pol's predictions and asked for the tech. Ah well. The Menk were interesting.

Unfortunately, I think I'm going to have to read other people and perhaps see this one again to figure out what exactly happened with the AOTW in the end. The phone rang and took my ear away from Archer and Phlox's scene in sickbay and the last scene on the planet. What happened??? Did they give the AOTW the cure? Arrugh.

In any case--and I know I'm just slapping this review together, as I need to get to sleep early tonight--I liked the character work this week, this week without space battles or yelling or AOTW slinking around on board.

Now I know.
D'Alaire -- 23 Jan 2002, 21:21 EST

Gads. I do need to watch this ep over again.

(Message Deleted by Poster)
Mad Man Miles -- 23 Jan 2002, 21:41 EST

How was this morally corrupt? Let me count the ways.
Terry -- 23 Jan 2002, 21:44 EST

No, let me draw an analogy.

You're a doctor called to aid someone with a nasty infection. You diagnose gangrene and have the necessary anti-biotics (or whatever - I don't know medicine).

You look the guy and his family over. He has a younger brother whom you believe to be smarter than the sick man. Their parents have only enough money to send only one son to college and they intend to send the older son.

Your decision: Let the dumb brother die. It's fate. And could you live with yourself if both lived but the younger brother never went to college? I didn't think so.

And hey, if the older brother really deserves to live, he'll find his own cure.

BTW, Brannon Braga is very sick. I want you to be his new doctor. I think it's his heart. It seems to be missing.

The Doctor is in the HOUSE!
Eric -- 23 Jan 2002, 23:01 EST

Quick Take : What can i say, two amazing episodes in a row! I agree that aside from the Prime Directive line this ending worked fine. ___________________________

SPOILERS

10

9

8

7

6

5

4

3

2

1

This episode almost reminded me of DS9 and that is a very good thing for me. All the drama and the tension came from the characters not action. Yes this can be done and can be done WELL.

Kevin Sorbo should be tied to a chair and forced to watch this episode over and over till he gets it.

I am growing to really enjoy the relaxed pace of Enterprise. I enjoyed the movie scene and Trip in tears over the chick flick!

I enjoyed Cutler and Phlox dating.

I enjoyed Archer's concern over Porthos.

I LOVED Hoshi and Phlox and the Denobian languedge lesson!

This is all great character building! This is the stuff great shows are made of, and when we get to the big problem it extends from all the little stuff we came from. This WORKS and it works WELL.

Enterprise is really maturing and coming into it's own. It is becoming what Star Trek is all about and i for one and EXTREMLY happy to see it and i can't wait to see what the rest of the season holds.

This easily gets a 9.5.

Hoshi in her undies in the preview gets a :

10000000000000000000000000000000000000000 out of 10!

Eric

coherent or not ,Terry, I think you're right
Lauren -- 23 Jan 2002, 23:06 EST

I have to agree that the decision to not help the AOTW made no sense to me. Look, a lot of individuals suffer maladies with a genetic cause, and we as a society don't think their demise some sort of "natural selection." We help them.

And, I truly don't see how helping the AOTW would be chosing one group of humanoids over the other. Look, maybe the Menck (sp?) would need their protectors to be around a little longer before they could evolve further. Maybe, left alone, a few of the primary humanoids would have changed and evolved to adapt to their genetic condition and, in doing so, changed the status quo of their relationship with the Menck.

Maybe, if, as Phlox suggests, only the Menck survive, they'll continue to evolve only to be hit by a gigantic meteor in a thousand years and become extinct anyway.

I think the ending, leading up to the idea that a "prime directive" will someday be needed, would have had more punch if, instead of a simple cure, Phlox had discovered a cure with a catch; for example, some way to change the unspellable aliens' whole physiology so that *they* would have essentially evolved into something different, directly affecting the balance of power with the Menck. At least *that* outcome would have fit the definition, in my mind, of Enterprise "playing god."

But some hypothetical scenario involving evolution thousands of years into the future, that is no reason to not help people you have already promised to help, especially since the work was already done.

That said, IMHO, there was still more to like than to dislike in this episode:

1. Although I can't imagine why the entertainment of choice for the crew consists of 200 year old movies, the films they are watching *are* from an era of Hollywood film that I prefer;

2. I liked the whole "letter to a friend" format of the episode, and I liked the idea that humans-specifically Phlox's pen pal-are expanding into other areas such as working in a hospital in an alien world (Enterprise and its mission aren't the only signs that humans are moving around the galaxy...)

3. Nobody got into any kind of nasty exchange with T'Pol about Vulcan and Earth, Vulcans and Humans, Meat-eating vs. Vegetarianism, etc. And, I liked her remarks to both Phlox (about human's lack of "emotional maturity" to get involved in interspecies relationships) and Archer (re: Vulcans on Earth for 90 years). Now, if I could only work up some enthusiasm for the actress...

4. I not only like Hoshi, but I like the emphasis on language that Enterprise has. It is one thing that *really* sets this ST apart from its predessors for me. Other ST series largely just used the UT as a given, maybe occasionally having it not work for dramatic effect. But, by having every one being able to communicate with everyone else instantaneously, they were able to get on with their stories. Enterprise allows difficulty communicating to be *part* of the story, and I think it's important. I liked Hoshi learning Phlox's language.

5. Gee, will TPTB actually let us have a shipboard romance? (Although conservative, prudish me doesn't think a nice young girl should get involved with a polygamist whose wives are also married to other men!)

After that particular revelation of Phlox's, I really started to wonder about his earlier, off-handed remark about mating season.

So, although I found the ending empty, forced, and unsatisfying, I enjoyed the episode overall, probably more than most of the others, this first season.

IMHO, of course. Lauren

The use of "real" alien languages is a pleasant surprise.
Terry -- 23 Jan 2002, 23:31 EST

I didn't think that the idea of no universal translator would last. It's been interesting to see Hoshi's linguistic skills be so often used. And the more that I see of her makes me like the character even more.

Actually, except for Archer and Mayweather, the whole cast is pretty good and their characters interesting.

Actually, Bakula was very good this episode. It was the writing that made Archer look bad here.

I liked your idea about Phlox finding a cure which would shift the direction of the V?'s evolution. During the episode, I thought that Phlox would find either that a) the V?'s disease was an allergic reaction to the Menk or b) a cure that require killing a Menk for each dose. Not that I liked either idea; I was glad the Menk weren't involved directly. Except in Phlox's mind.

They were watching Gary Cooper and Ingrid Bergman in For Whom the Bell Tolls. I find it ironic that that film was about a man who went to a foreign land to help a people in need. For whom does the bell toll? Not for us, for those evolutionary losers over there.

Perhaps we shouldn't be sending aid to Afganistan and the Congo right now.
Shadda -- 24 Jan 2002, 00:13 EST

We should just let them take care of themselves and let evolution take over. Afterall, we aren't God are we? We probably should have kept that polio vaccine to ourselves too. Not to mention anitibiotics and CAT scans. Fortunatly, we share in this world. It doesn't always work out for the best, but we do keep trying. And to be clear, when I say we, I don't mean the USA.

Oh well. This is the second episode I watched. Hummm, it started out so well. I was so prepared to love Dr. Phlox, or what ever his name is. Now, I see him as a smug, selfrightous, jackass. Four wives, boy I've missed something here, sounds like Braga's fantasy life is making its way to the screen again. I do like Hoshi though. Sorry about the spellings, I need to look those names up.

I am not making a lot of sense right now, I'm suffering from Terry's affliction. What is it you have Terry? What ever it is, I do agree with your assessment of the episode.

Shadda

2 for Dear Doctor
Vickie -- 24 Jan 2002, 09:14 EST

This episode was just full of things to love:

The doctor, Trip crying at the movies, the continued highlighting of alien language barriers, the emphasis on character interactions and the story instead of special effects and space battles, the moral dilemma, all in all, I found this episode to be excellent.

Now, at the risk of being e-tarred and feathered, I must say that I agreed with Phlox's recommendation and Archer's final decision to not help the V's. The V's didn't have a contagious disease and they weren't suffering from some recent genetic mutation caused by an infectious agent or radiation from some ill-advised world-wide nuclear power experiment - all circumstances that would have warranted medical intervention. The V's were in the final stages of a process that had been going on for centuries - a natural evolutionary process. I'm with Archer: intervening in that process would have been too much like playing God.

And while I'm tossing fireballs, I also strongly disagee with the suggestion that Enterprise helping the V's is the same as us helping the Afghanis or Congolese - or rather that if one doesn't believe the V's should have been given a cure then one must not believe in sending humanitarian aid to Afghanistan or the Congo. Apples and oranges. T-bones and gagh (or however you spell that Klingon live worm delicacy). Not the same thing at all.

Next week's episode, BTW looks hot. Was that Eric I heard squealing over Hoshi and T'Pol in the decon chamber? Oh, wait, no, I think that was me when I saw Reed in there with them.

Vickie

Yep, lots of squealing in Boston and i agreed with Phlox also....
Eric -- 24 Jan 2002, 09:21 EST

Hoshi in her underwear was amazing, i can't wait for the hour long decon scene next week!

Well it BETTER be an hour long UPN!

*ahem*

Anyway, Phlox had the right idea. What you said, there is a HUGE difference between humans helping humans and humans helping another alien species.

This was not a disease it was evolution. They were destined to die and us sticking our noses in and interfering would have been wrong.

Was it a tough story to watch? Yes. But i for one am GLAD for a grey DS9 ending over the typical Voyager happy technobabble saves the day ending!

For once we had a tough issue on Star Trek again and i am happy.

Eric

Re: 2 for Dear Doctor
Marie -- 24 Jan 2002, 09:47 EST

I loved this episode.

I also agree with Vickie. The V were in the late stages of an evolutionary process, not the throes of disease. Moreover, there was a corresponding evolutionary process working on the Mahnk, as they were showing signs of increasing intelligence, etc. There is a difference between saving lives and interfering in Natural Selection. There is a big difference between Dr. Phlox and Mengele. Mengele experimented and tortured. I have seen none of that in Dr. Phlox.

JMO, Marie

Here, here, Marie and Vickie!
Roxanne -- 24 Jan 2002, 10:15 EST

I looked upon this as more of the evolution of a species. They become extinct and another species takes over, much like the dinosaurs and the mammels. (I know that's spelled wrong, but I can't think of the right spelling at the moment.)

Anyway, I agree with Phlox and Archer. I felt the angst that went with the decision they each had to make. I was also grateful that Phlox allowed Archer to make the decision rather than keep the fact that he had the cure to himself. Good episode!

Roxanne

You like Riker with the beard?
Vickie -- 24 Jan 2002, 10:26 EST

I thought I was the only one around here who had Riker-with-the-beard on my favorite Trek character list. It feels so good to find out I'm not alone after all!

Vickie

While I don't know that he's a "favorite" with me, Vickie
Nina -- 24 Jan 2002, 10:58 EST

I think he looks much better with beard than without. Yum!

Riker was kind of a dope without the beard!
Eric -- 24 Jan 2002, 11:40 EST

He grew a personality with that beard and he became a MUCH better character.

Eric

That's an interesting connection
Tesha -- 24 Jan 2002, 12:39 EST

Hehehehe!

I didn't know beard could bestow personality!

Seriously, I think that Frakes was really settling into the character and Riker began to develop into one of my favorites by the time the beard appeared. Plus he does look better with the beard. Makes his face look stronger and less boyish, a good think for someone in a position of command, I think.

Tesha

I agree they made the correct decision
D -- 24 Jan 2002, 17:42 EST

I was concerned from the promos that the "Prime Directive" issue would be merely whether to help cure some sort of infectious disease. This was much more complex, involving not just the medical question but also whether to provide advanced technology.

Looking at it as if the PD were in effect:

The initial decision to get involved, when they thought it was a disease, wasn't an issue, since these aliens had set out to find other space faring races and had encountered other warp capable species (how much did the Ferengi want to charge them to find a cure?). Had it been some sort of plague I believe the crew would have provided the cure and been in compliance.

Clearly giving the warp tech wouldn't have been in compliance. Nor would providing the genetic cure, since it would have been interfering with the natural development of a species (really 2 species).

Other observations:

Don't any Doctor's other than Crusher have enough staff? At least Cutler is an exo-biologist so her being recruited as a medical assistant makes sense, even if she weren't Phlox's friend.

I like their choice of movies better than Tom's.

T'Pol and Archer agree!

As good as Hoshi is with languages its nice to see she still needs to practice.

One small step for man... one giant leap...
Deb47 -- 24 Jan 2002, 21:42 EST

of faith into oblivion for mankind.

Now, I don't know whether Archer "should have/should not have" saved the dominant species on that planet.

I do know what the Prime Directive answer would be, because I've watched nearly 24 years of Star Trek and can parrot the party line just as if I'd just been lectured to by Picard an hour ago.

But Archer isn't me.

Archer hasn't had this theory shoved down his throat for 24 seasons.

Archer HAS been the recipient of "the other side" of arrogance... What happens when a "lesser" species has been held back by a dominant species for 90 years AND he's never failed to remind us at how unfair and unwarranted that type of directive was to his race/planet.

Despite that history, all it takes is one little conversation about evolution from his alien doctor and "poof" not only is he a born again member of a Dominant species but he's seen crafting the Federation's "General Order #1" on his first try?

"Marvelous!"

(That's what they teach you to say in Finishing School instead of "BullCrap!")

I don't know the right answer, nor do I even care "what" the right answer was to this week's big question... I just can't believe that Archer would come to such a decision on his own with so little provocation. Quite frankly, I know I would not have done so had I been in his shoes/without benefit of 24 years of "schooling".

The refusal to give antimatter tech can be excused by his arguments that they are unprepared for such tech.

But to refuse to help a species prevent exctinction because of an evolutionary error in their genetic code... an error which DOES correct with medical intervention makes no sense to me at ARCHER'S state of awareness.

If I may be allowed to Quote Kes from "Elogium"...

"But isn't that why we have minds? to look beyond biological urges... to consider their consequences.. then I have to ask myself some questions..."

Archer isn't part of a mindless evolutionary process. He is a fellow traveler in the Universe, one who has NOT come into contact with the negative impact of one race interferring in the natural progression of another. He is a believer in technology that not only prolongs life, but can throw it across space at warp speed and allow different races to communicate with each other after sharing 8 sentences.

Do I believe this man would make that decision without input from his home world and without more input from his advisors?

No.

I do not think he is capable of making that leap of logic in one night, and because of my unbelief this ep does not sit well with me.

I don't fault Phlox for his interpretation of the situation. He's an alien, as was pointed out repeatedly this week, and probably has seen the negative impact of one culture on another.

I don't fault the ep for its picture into the lives of the crew and the relationships we see forming between the crew.

I do fault the ep for showing us a crew that cries over 200 year old movies, and a Captain who's ready to use medical intervention to help his dog, but won't use medical intervention to help a dieing race that has pleaded for that help.

All I can say is he'd better never ... ever ... diss Vulcans again.

Never!

D47

"Spelling" is quite right, Shadda...
Deb47 -- 24 Jan 2002, 21:53 EST

Well, at least Phlox & Hoshi are spelled correctly.

To be fair to Phlox's polygamy... at least in his culture the women practce it too!

Imagine the number of birthdays they have to remember. His three wives, their 6 other husbands, his two (?) parents, his 6 inlaw parents, his wives' 12 other inlaw parents...

Gosh. And we haven't even begun to consider the number of kids they could have in this extended family!

D47

You're right, Deb.
Terry -- 24 Jan 2002, 23:00 EST

You're absolutely right. Although you put it a great deal more delicately than I am able.

Archer's decision goes against everything we've been shown about his beliefs about one species helping another. I won't go so far as to call it hypocritical as this episode and this season have also shown Archer in the process of changing his opinions about the Vulcans' conduct towards Earth.

OTOH, we had not better see Archer get into another snit about the Vulcans holding stuff back from humans. Ever. Again.

One thing I do find completely shameful about Archer's conduct in this episode is that he basically promised that race that he would help them in any way they could. Not only did he break his promise but he told bare-faced lies to them about not being able to find a cure.

Picard wouldn't have taken the easy way out. If he decided not to give such a cure, he would have told the aliens about the cure and his decision and faced their anger and hatred. But Picard is an honorable man.

Why did Archer shift his mind so far so quickly? He seemed to be seriously considering giving them warp tech and as you said, only decided it against it because he felt they would probably blow themselves up with anti-matter.

I found the scene where Archer handed over the drugs to "ease their suffering" particularly painful.

Darn! I was determined not to post another of my rants on this ep.

For Whom the Bell Tolls
Lauren -- 24 Jan 2002, 23:32 EST

Thanks, Terry. I was going a little nuts trying to figure out which movie that was. I haven't seen it in years.

Where to draw the line
Lauren -- 25 Jan 2002, 00:04 EST

D47, I think you got it right when you said:

"But to refuse to help a species prevent exctinction because of an evolutionary error in their genetic code... an error which DOES correct with medical intervention makes no sense to me at ARCHER'S state of awareness."

It's also how I feel.

If it were ONE individual alien who was dying because of an "evolutionary error in his genetic code," no one would have had any objections to giving that individual a cure. Everyday, we try to find cures for devastating congenital problems. I know of a little girl who was born with a very rare condition that has rendered her mentally retarded, wheelchair-bound, and helpless to even hold her head erect. It is degenerative and she is unlikely to live past her 10th birthday. Yet her parents have found specialists who are experimenting with gene replacement therapy and others who are doing all they can to cure this condition, and others like it (I've even heard something along the lines that, if gene replacement ever becomes viable, it may even be able to be performed on the unborn fetus!)

The point is, nobody looks at these few children, these individuals, and says that because their degeneration is programmed by a flaw in their "genetic code," that it is somehow predestined or the correct outcome and, although there might be grumblings about research dollars,etc., if anyone thinks these far-thinking researchers are playing god, no one faults them for it. I doubt Phlox would.

But, instead of individuals, have the congenital defect affect a whole species and it is suddenly a sign that "this was meant to be."

BTW, I don't think the *whole* species *was* affected; didn't the alien doctor say something like 1 in 3 contracts the illness?

Of course, the fact that the aliens took Archer's refusal to give them warp technology with such good grace makes them seem even more highly evolved and makes it seem as if their eventual extinction is some kind of mistake.

IMHO, Lauren

You're right about Picard...
Nina -- 25 Jan 2002, 07:56 EST

and Janeway would have found a way to have her cake, and eat it, too. She might have started off determined to hold the PD line, but someone around her would have given her the necessary nudge (or slap upside the head, if it was Seven or first-season Chakotay!) - and then she'd have put her unconventional brain to work on the problem, to find a way to help and yet live with it herself.

Assuming she was MY Janeway that week, of course; but that's another whole problem.

The writers didn't water down the moral choice
Terry -- 25 Jan 2002, 08:01 EST

by making the race with the genetic disease unpleasant thugs. That is often is what TV shows do to make the audience more willing to accept a distasteful decision.

Instead, they portrayed them as a race who (unlike our human experiences) tolerated the prescence of another race. And treated them fairly well, considering.

And despite what I anticipated, those guys never did more than ask for help. They didn't demand or try to steal technology.

In fact, it seems obvious that the writers wanted the audience to like that race and feel sorry for them.

Rant away, Terry (and everybody else). Please.
Vickie -- 25 Jan 2002, 08:37 EST

Frankly, I'm thrilled that we are once again caught up in a discussion of a moral issue raised by an episode of Star Trek.

Sadly, so far the Enterprise discussions have focused mostly on the quality (or lack thereof) of the actors and plots. I think it's an excellent move forward that TPTB have managed to give us an episode with a storyline we care enough about to have some passionate argument.

Just as long as we stop short of reaching critical Tuvix and breaching our warp core containment field.

Vickie

Yes! Please yes! Lets TALK!
Eric -- 25 Jan 2002, 09:26 EST

All Voyager did in those last two painful seasons was frustrate or annoy me!

This is great, we can finaly talk about a powerful new Star Trek episode!

Lets start TALKING again!

Eric

Paramount watered down the moral choice
Diane -- 25 Jan 2002, 09:39 EST

Read Billingsly's interview. He talks about how they had to reshoot the ending because the Big suits didn't want any tension between Archer and Phlox.

http://talk.trekweb.com/articles/2002/01/22/1011728978.html

Too bad, I think Billingsly is correct, the suits ruined a better ending.

Di

Yes, but I left the "h" out of Afghanistan.
Shadda -- 25 Jan 2002, 10:09 EST

It doesn't pay to type when you're tired.

As for all of the wives and husbands, apparently the nuclear family has a whole different meaning on his planet. The only solution to remembering the birthdays would be to not celebrate them. End of problem.

Shadda

Ethical landmines aside, I too think this was the best episode by far.
Ronit -- 25 Jan 2002, 10:18 EST

The acting was ON, the cast was clicking. A few observations:

Billingsley and the actor who plays Sato are fabulous, particularly together.

Billingsley's Phlox even makes Blalock's T'Pol look okay. It makes much more sense for the 2 resident non-humans on the ship to be relating on that basis than it does for him to be teasing her the way humans might. (And I'm with you Lauren, that it was such a relief not to have to hear another Vulcan vs. human....sorry, nodded off there).

Good by omission: no UnHoly Trinity this week. Archer, Tucker and T'Pol's scenes as a trio simply do not work.

Ronit

Which begs the question....
Ronit -- 25 Jan 2002, 10:40 EST

to quote a friend "Excuse my denseness, but is genocide a happy ending?!?!"

Ronit

You do good work Deb.
Shadda -- 25 Jan 2002, 10:49 EST

I am also reminded of the TOS episode, here I go with names again, I can't remember, where Kirk is on the planet and can't remember who he is. The Enterprise keeps an astroid from hitting the planet, because another more advanced race had placed an obilisk or what ever to deflect it, but it had broken. How is that different? I don't see any difference. Kirk and company saved that planet from an act of nature.

One of my big disappointments is the one you pointed out. The sniviling cowardice of not telling the Vwhatever the truth. How very dishonerable. If you have the courage of your convictions, you don't quibble. You come right out and tell the truth and give your reasoning. Archer and Phlox were pathetic.

Dang, I'm late, gotta go to work.

Shadda

Polygamous Phlox.
Ronit -- 25 Jan 2002, 10:51 EST

I missed some of the early dialogue -- did it shed any light on the question of whether his species' sexual reproduction requires several adults?

If not....

Ronit

Hey, remember Phlox is an alien....
Eric -- 25 Jan 2002, 11:09 EST

Can't judge him by our own Monkey traditions!

To answer your question all we know about his mysterious race is that they do not like to be touched however after Cutler apologised Phlox said that he was trying to move beyond that and be more accepting.

And to be fair, unlike here on Earth where polgamy is practiced the Dolubians seem to to let the women have multiple husbands.

And since this was Phlox and Cutler's first date sexual reproduction did NOT come up!

Eric

Watered down the choice part and loaded on the sanctimony.
maggie the cat -- 25 Jan 2002, 11:37 EST

Although I often enjoy Trek's preachiness, my objection is not so much that Archer made the wrong choice but rather that the ending was written to convince me that he made the right choice. Archer's speech about a DIRECTIVE (it was practically written on screen in bold italics and caps) and Phlox's subsequent comments all piled it on about how Archer did the "right thing".

The nature of online discussion suggests that the issue was much more complicated and ambiguous than the simplistic way in which it was resolved. Billingsley's comments show exactly how the episode went awry.

Still, I was pleased to finally see an Ent episode that was more than mildly entertaining, and could keep me awake, stimulate some thought and even motivate me to post about it. I loved the M*A*S*H homage (was it Dear Sigmund?), the silliness of Trip crying over Ingrid Bergman, Hoshi's language learning at a normal (and funny) rather than miraculous pace, and the discussion of Denublian marital and mating practices. Combat anyone

Billingsley's comments are unclear about the original ending.
Terry -- 25 Jan 2002, 12:12 EST

It's obvious that he's saying that in the original, Phlox and Archer disagreed about whether to give the cure to the Vwhoevers. And that Dr. Phlox disobeyed the Captain's orders about that.

But who wanted to give the Vwhoevers the cure and who didn't? Phlox's disobediance might have been slipping them the cure against Archer's orders or destroying his research when ordered by Archer to help them. I can't really tell which was supposed to happen.

Frankly, this episode showed both Phlox and Archer changing their mindsets and acting differently from their past actions. Phlox thought the humans too concerned with the Menk and their inferior position for the Vwhoever. Archer's past attitude is well known and he exhibited the same early in the ep.

But considering that this episode was really about Phlox, his exploration of human attitudes yet remaining Denebulan(sp?), I expect that perhaps the more likely scenario has Phlox choosing to destroy the cure to the Vwhoever against Archer's orders.

Re: I agree they made the correct decision
Carus -- 25 Jan 2002, 12:49 EST

Just thought I'd add my own humble voice to the discussion. A lot of people mention that since the PD was made yet Archer didn't have to follow it therefore he was committing murder in a way all the captains after him couldn't because they have to take an oath to obey the PD even if it cost them their life ( I think that was mentioned in TOS).

But here is a thought considering how close Archer came to stating the PD in this episode maybe he is going to be the author of the PD, so he was just following something that in time he is going to come to invent.

Not being 'judgey', just 'observey'.
Ronit -- 25 Jan 2002, 13:05 EST

Maybe I should have used 'group marriage' rather than polygamy. And yes, I'm glad that the goose and gander both get theirs. And for the record, I'm not squicked at all. My only critical comment at this point is that I would have preferred it if they'd found an actor to play Cutler who didn't look so much younger than Phlox.

But, to get to my main point..... does this make Phlox the first major Trek character (ie main cast) in a more-than-just-2 relationship? That could be a very big deal. If so, where are they going with this?

And why can you have a main character involved in a 2+ relationship but not in a monogamous same-sex relationship?

I'm betting that PTB will take the easy way out. No doubt we will eventually learn that it takes several Denobulans to make a baby, making it a biological imperative rather than a topic for debate.

(Jules I hope this passes the family board requirements...)

Ronit

I agree about the more likely scenario.
Tesha -- 25 Jan 2002, 13:26 EST

Pardon me for discussing an episode I haven't actually seen yet. However, I have been reading everyone's comments and being the person that I am, I can't resist adding my two cets worth.

I agree with everyone who has been saying that from Archer's currnet point of view, it makes no sense for him to make a rapid decision to not provide medical assistance. His experience is that of being held back by an advanced species who refused to give assistance. From what I have seen, he feels that the Vulcan's explanations to be mere platititudes to keep humans in their place. I would think that this would cause Archer to lean towards providing assistance. As of yet, he hasn't seen the negative affects of a more advanced species providing assistance to a less advanced species.

If I have read everyone's comments correctly, Phlox advised Archer against providing assitance. Did T'Pol also contirbute? I'm just curious. It would make sense for her too. I think that we have seen Archer learning to listen to T'Pol just a bit more. If both she and Phlox were advising against intervention, I could see Archer hesitating and the consulting with whomever back on earth. Perhaps after much discusion and consultation, he might have decided to not intervene. As I understand how the episode went however, it doesn't seem to make sense that he came to that conclusion.

Terry, I have to agree with you about the ending that was origionally planned. Based on what we have seen of Phlox so far, I can see him destroying his research in order to prevent intervention. He does *not* have the same drives, views, or moral compunctions that humans do. If that was the originally planned ending, I certainly do wish they would have stayed with it.

I can't wait to see this episode. Now, if someone just remembers to record it for me!

Tesha

Hey Diane, we missed a birthday again, didn't we?
Deb47 -- 25 Jan 2002, 13:44 EST

Dang, we're doing that a lot lately. Looks like MEG missed out too this month.

So Sorry, hope it was a Happy one for both of you.

Will you be coming north to Ct soon?

D47

Actually, Tesha...
Vickie -- 25 Jan 2002, 14:20 EST

...I got the impression that both T'Pol and Dr. Phlox did have some input on Archer's decision, even if we didn't see any full-blown debates.

There was one scene with Archer and T'Pol where they were talking about giving the V's warp drive. Among other comments, Archer said something about having a little more understanding of the Vulcans' position on not providing full assistance to less developed species.

During that conversation there was one exchange that I found particularly interesting for its implications. One of them said something about staying to help the V's and then Archer said something about the Vulcans landing on Earth and deciding to stay to help the developing humans. Then T'Pol said, "Yes, and we have been there for 90 years."

My interpretation of that was that T'Pol was making the point that once you've decide to provide major assistance to a planet, you may not ever be able to stop. You may say "Well, we're just going to help cure this plague and then we're leaving." But then once you've invested that much time and energy, you find it difficult to walk away when the next crisis comes up. After you cure the plague, there's the drought and crop failure, then the civil unrest, then the Klingons start making drive-bys. It never ends. And then, all of a sudden, you realize that your 37 year old son is still living at home, working part-time, paying no rent and leaving his dirty socks on the family room floor.

It made me wonder if the Vulcans hadn't begun to regret their committment to Earth after the first 40 years or so.

Whoa. I didn't mean to go on so, just wanted to say that I felt Archer did make his decision based on input from Phlox and T'Pol and they caused him to consider some things he might not otherwise have thought about.

Vickie

About dissing Vulcans.
Jules -- 25 Jan 2002, 14:56 EST

Don't you think that this may be part of Archer's evolutionary process in the course of Enterprise's run? To experience the other side of the coin, to have to dish it out at times instead of just taking it? To have to make the big decisions himself, and learn just how difficult it can be to make that judgement call? To sometimes put himself in the Vulcans' shoes and see how well humans measure up in the same situation?

It's all part of that learning process. And you don't always get it right, and you don't always even know if you've got it right.

On day one Archer was about as far away from looking likely candidate material to write that first draft of the Prime Directive as you could get. It'd be a nice little irony if he were ultimately to round off his experiences of exploration by becoming its author, or at least contributing to it (because Reed still looks the likeliest person for the job ), and for that you definitely need this sort of episode. I've always been fascinated to explore those shades of grey, and while I don't yet know which way I'll ultimately jump for this particular ethical dilemma I'm certainly looking forward to seeing the episode.

And I'm with Vickie: love or hate it, it's great to have an episode that really gets us thinking and debating again.

Jules

Deb, may not make it to Hartford
Diane -- 25 Jan 2002, 15:35 EST

My family is in the middle of planning my parents 50th Anniversary and Mom is starting to panic, so I have to make a few trips to Philadelphia to assist her in planning the celebration Mass, the menue, the entertainment, and invitations.

Sorry I won't be meeting up with you. I know Tracey is still considering going to Hartford. I can now only hope that this play comes to DC. (Fingers Crossed).

BTW, thanks for the Birthday wishes. Had a good time celebrating last week, hey the Eagles won. And, will continue the celebrations this weekend with the DC Nebby Januarians. Bern found an Italian Restaurant that has Opera records in its juke box--I can sing along.

Di

What Vickie said!
Eric -- 25 Jan 2002, 16:18 EST

That was one of my favorite lines from the show.

It made me think of the many times the United States stuck their nose in something and then spent the many, many years that followed trying to back out!

Eric

Yeppirs!
D'Alaire -- 25 Jan 2002, 17:53 EST

Happy b-day for the moment, Di! I'm anxious to celebrate it tomorrow as well, particularly as this is Bern Recommended locale.

Will you really sing along? Really!?

Oh that the play would come to DC! What a Nebbie Trip that would be. {{bg}}

Re: Archer's evolutionary process.
Deb47 -- 25 Jan 2002, 18:37 EST

That certainly is the stance TPTB are taking, Jules, especially as we did get the requisite brief scene with T'Pol where he states he now knows where the Vulcans were coming from in their desire to hold back info from the humans.

I just don't think TPTB made their case for "why" Archer would come to this even harder decision than the ones the Vulcans wrestled with in regards to the warp 5 engine.

All the Vulcans did was decide that the Humans had to learn to walk before they could fly. They helped introduce humans to the universe, but didn't let them skip any grades in warp mechanics.

Archer basically stood at his desk and decided to with-hold the cure that these people have been actively seeking for centuries because his doctor told him it was due to an evolutionary defect of their genome.

Evolution is predicated upon the idea of the "survival of the fittest" and yet when it comes to an intelligent species that can manipulate its environ fittest often gives way to "most adaptable/most intelligent."

The aliens in question are certainly doing what any species would do in its circumstances, desperately trying to find a way to delay the "inevitable".

Archer's medical team have already done that... found a way to correct a defect.

And yet, in their desire to "not" play God... Phlox and Archer are doing precisely that, "Play God" in its most base meaning. Deciding not how to help, and let the chips fall where they may... rather deciding that THIS defect is sacrosanct and THIS life/species should die.

As I think I've said elsewhere, I don't care what decision was arrived at, I just care that it doesn't follow from what we've learned about this man.

Maybe if Phlox or T'Pol had sat down with Archer and given him "concrete examples" where such interference was the worst possible thing on another planet/in another cultural system... "maybe" I could have accepted the leap of logic that allowed him to turn his back on these people. Maybe had he contacted his home base by subspace (or whatever they are using) and was ordered to "stand down" by Admiral Forest I could have accepted his half-hearted offer of pain meds to ease the suffering of those people... and the tantalizing clue that "maybe" they would come up with their own cure in the next 10 years.

Maybe.

As it stands, the ep that I was hoping would explain the genesis of the Federation's draconian General Order #1 was ultmately a disappointment.

Frankly, I expected so much more.

D47

Re: Polygamous Combatants.
Deb47 -- 25 Jan 2002, 19:01 EST

Actually, Ronit, that would be an interesting idea... that for Denuebeins (sp?) it takes more than "Two to Tango".

Alas, that part was not made clear. I assume, however, from the tenor of the discussion with Ensign Cutler that the arrangement was more polygamy of choice rather than biological necessity... and no, I can't point to a single line to back up this feeling.

As I said before, at least BOTH sexes get to partake of the polygamous rule...

That is a good thing... isn't it?

D47

A general question on extinction/evolution, and a comment about Vulcans
Lauren -- 25 Jan 2002, 22:57 EST

1. Not being very knowledgeable about science, I wonder if someone could answer a question:

From what we know on our own planet, do most species that become extinct do so because of a genetic flaw, as in "Dear Doctor," or is it usually due to other environmental factors and/or unplanned disasters, such as ice ages and meteor crashes?

2. A few people have brought up the comment of T'Pol's re: Vulcans staying on earth to help and still being there 90 years later. That statement, more than anything in this series thus far, helps explain the downright unpleasant way that the Vulcans have been depicted in Enterprise.

I had not thought about it before, but it makes sense that Vulcans stayed on Earth initially to help out a new warp-capable civilization and didn't realize what they were getting into. By not thinking in advance exactly what their role would be on Earth, they eventually discovered that "helping" was not an easy thing and that simply cutting off that help was not practical or moral.

So they got stuck utilizing much of their resources--including probably many talented individuals--in aiding people who increasingly resented the restrictions placed on them by that aid. And, while all this was going on, the difficulties with the Andorians were probably costing them much as well.

It seems that "playing god" isn't any more satisfying than being the underlings that have to deal with the deity's whims.

I don't know if this makes sense to any one else, but to me, it makes the Vulcans a bit more sympathetic, like mentors who mean well but just haven't been able to deal with proteges who, despite seeming so like them, are so different in terms of temperment, ambition and curiousity.

IMHO, Lauren

Re: Extinction/evolution and Vulcan missionaries
Terry -- 26 Jan 2002, 00:31 EST

Lauren said: From what we know on our own planet, do most species that become extinct do so because of a genetic flaw, as in "Dear Doctor," or is it usually due to other environmental factors and/or unplanned disasters, such as ice ages and meteor crashes?

I'm certainly no expert on evolution but I did stay at a Holiday Inn so... I can B.S. I'm not sure that any species has ever died from a "genetic flaw".

A genetic flaw seems to indicate a bad mutation that renders the possessor less fit to survive and pass on their genes to descendents. I would guess that most human diseases caused by or aided by genetics are either recessive (and therefore are passed by many who never get sick) or occur after a human's peak years of fertility. Neither type of flaw would seriously threaten a species' survival IMO.

Many so-called genetic flaw serve a purpose or once did. For instance, many African-Americans possess sickle cells in their blood which makes them suspectible to sickle cell anemia. But those sickle cells also give those same people a much greater ability to resist and survive malaria than most European-Americans.

I would expect that most extinct species were killed of either by new species moving into their environment or by being forced by climate changes into new environments they aren't well adapted for. Actually, man has been moving into new environments and killing off species for millenia.

About the Vulcans getting into more than they expect with Earth, I agree with you that it makes them more likeable. Eric compared the Vulcans' and humans' interference with other cultures to America getting involved in diplomatic and military quagmires in foreign countries. This is an excellent analogy because obviously Roddenberry's creation of the Prime Directive was born of the Vietnam War protest era in the 60s.

I personally have doubts about most of America's foreign adventures. Even the ones that don't utterly fail often seem to achieve little. Vietnam, Lebanon, Haiti, Somalia, etc. But there have been successes, too. Korea, even Bosnia and Kosovo. Even if the Bosnians hate us and we waited too long to get involved, (I believe) we saved many, many lives.

The main problem is that no nation gets involved for purely altruistic reasons. Ever. And that usually screws things up.

But I don't think the quagmire theory applies to Dear Doctor. The Vwhoever wouldn't have minded if Archer handed them a cure and then walked away and never came back. Archer must believe that old Chinese saying, "Save a man's live and you're responsible for him."

Re: Valakians.
Deb47 -- 26 Jan 2002, 09:12 EST

Or at least that's what the Official Star Trek site calls them.

As for the question at hand, I suspect most exctinction is related to change of environment and most evolution is related to that change. Those that can adapt either genetically or technologically survive.

If Archer wanted to help without obligating his people to remain and handhold them through this adaptation, then he could have handed Phlox's research over to them and said...

"You are dieing from a flaw in your genome, not from a disease. We project that as a species, it will cause your extinction within the next few hundred years.

Within this file is a blueprint for correcting that flaw. To use it means genetically altering your species forever.

We do not know how this alteration will ultimately affect you as a culture much less as a people. The costs of this alteration/this loss of self may be greater than the benefits of a prolonged life for your species.

I know what I would do for myself, but in truth I do not know what is best for you or for your society. I could keep this information from you, and indeed I nearly did. But great strides in evolution, whether of the genome or of the society occur only when outside forces are allowed to affect us.

Make no mistake. This file should not be considered your salvation.

In fact, on my planet some would call deride it as a Pandora's Box, because it contains the most frightening thing I could give you.

A choice."

D47

WOW, Deb.
Nina -- 26 Jan 2002, 10:57 EST

That is one marvelous solution, and I'm ashamed I didn't think of it first!

Occupational hazard, Nina.
Deb47 -- 26 Jan 2002, 12:31 EST

I'm frequently put in the position of handing someone a "Pandora's box" ... and letting them decide which is best.

When you think of it, that was what Janeway argued the Caretaker should do in the pilot of Voyager... Teach the Ocampa and let them make their own choices. Climb out of the womb he'd created for them underground, or die in the 500 year old sanctuary he'd built for them.

Pandora's box... a favorite theme for me.

From 22 years ago...

(Pardon the conceit)

"Oh what a month it has been.

The things I've heard, the things I've seen.

The pessism, optimism, dejection, and smiles.

A far away war touching us from across the miles.

Pleas of peace reached our ears too,

As we rang out the old and rang in the new.

.

As I looked about, I wondered how?

How could I possibly write of Hope and Joy now?

Here 50 lives, nay thousands more,

Lie in the balance if peace is not restored.

And when its not Iran its gold or Panamain locks,

Do we live in a world, or exist in a box?

.

A box with 4 walls, a floor, and a lid.

A box within which all troubles are hid?

Have we finally become trapped by those evils Pandora let fly?

Is it time to turn to our mortal coil and say goodbye?

Have the Eagle and the Bear fulfilled the prophecy?

Will our world be destroyed, so our spirits may run free?............"

.

That was the beginning to the last poem I ever wrote. Since it runs another several pages... I will spare you the rest... although I still love the part about

"Hope, that lithesome fairy with rainbow colored wings. Although made from tears, she still knew how to sing."

I try to recall that line whenever the going gets tough!

D47

Re: Valakians.
Marie -- 26 Jan 2002, 19:40 EST

Now, as one who thinks Archer made the right choice, this is an option that I could agree with.... Give them just enough help to help themselves.

Have a good day,

Marie

Lauren, you summed up my feelings, too, though i happen to like T'Pol much more than you. NIM
david g -- 26 Jan 2002, 20:55 EST

Hey Deb, the appeal of Classic Hollywood is eternal!!!
david g -- 26 Jan 2002, 21:00 EST

But i agree with your points re: Archer.

it's a shame that this ep took, as you and Terry point out, the wrong side of the argument, because it was such an enjoyable ep up until the denouement.

also--isnt funny that one of the most enjoyable eps hardly features Archer at all?

frankly, im much more interested in the other characters.

i happen to adore Phlox. what a superb character.

dg

T'Pol
Lauren -- 27 Jan 2002, 01:50 EST

Actually, David, I don't dislike T'Pol as a character. As written, she often has good lines and interesting insights. The mild jokes about her eating habits (stemming, I guess, from her stubborn refusal to touch food with her fingers necessitating the use of flatware and chopsticks in ways they were never intended to be used) are good-natured. There are two aspects of T'Pol that I don't like, however:

1. At first, the constant bickering between T'Pol and either Archer or Trip. It seems sometimes as if the writers had them disagree just for the sake of disagreeing. This sort of goes along with the way I felt they did a revision on Vulcans in general, and just looked for every opportunity to make them as damned unlikeable as possible. Fortunately, it seems as if lately TPTB are cutting back on meaningless arguing.

2. The way Jolene Blalock portrays T'Pol, to me, seems excessively wooden. Whether this is her interpretation of the character or the directors' or whatever, I find it coming across as very amateuristic. And I'm sure that this robot-like performance *is* by choice; although I don't recall seeing Blalock act in anything else, in one Enterprise episode I *did* enjoy her performance, so I don't think it's a lack of talent. In "Strange New World," I thought that there was a lot more sublety and shading to Blalock's performance than in other episodes. However, in this episode, she was being affected by those hallucinogenic spores or whatever, so she was *supposed* to be edgier. Still, I'd like to see more nuances in her performances.

Also, I surmise that Vulcans have got to be hard for actors. When Voyager first went on the air, I also had trouble accepting Tim Russ' performance. As time went on, I thought he got better, and became one of my favorites. Then, when VOY started syndicating, and I got to see season 1 again, I had to admit that he was good then, too, but I had not appreciated it at the time. So, maybe I'll get used to Blalock and judge her work differently in time.

I should mention that this is the only place where I *can* say anything negative about T'Pol. Since the infamous decontamination scene, my husband refuses to hear anything even slightly disapproving of his favorite character or the actress who portrays her!

IMHO,

Lauren

Re: Wrong side of the argument?
Deb47 -- 27 Jan 2002, 09:20 EST

Well, david, that is a matter of opinion.

As I think I stated before, my argument isnt the answer, but how it was arrived at during the show.

Had T'Pol or Phlox given real examples of the effects of meddling with prewarp civilizations resulting in a true "visible" struggle of conscience within Archer, then I could have accepted such a change in him.

Evolution of the genome, or of the society, or of the individual requires great external pressures.

One little conversation with Phlox about evolution, and one little conversation with T'Pol about hanging around Earth 90 years doesn't really cut it with me.

Note the operative phrase here... "With me."

What I find very interesting, if I may say so, is that interview with Billingsly that (?) Di had posted earlier. He was arguing for more tension between Phlox and Archer, because he felt that tension gave more color/nuance/flavor to the relationships and the story. Alas, TPTB didn't want to UNDERMINE Archer's authority, and so wanted all the crew to "play ball" with the Captain.

Hmmmmmm.

Some of the best eps on Voyager (IMO) was when someone went astray, tried or appeared to undermine Janeway's authority, and got snapped around or re-educated by the Captain AS SHE reasserted that authority.

"PrimeFactors", "Manuevers", "Prototype", "Meld", "Fair Trade", "Scorpion II", "Prey", "Counterpoint", "Dark Frontier", "Juggernaut", "Good Shepherd", "Live Fast and Prosper", "Endgame".

All had members of the crew or AOTW or versions of herself working to undermine her in some fashion, and all learned the wisdom of her ways.

Archer needed that.

Instead he looked like a puppy being lead around by a "nudge" from Phlox and a "Hrumphf" from T'Pol, rather than a Captain who just created the guiding principle of a Federation that does not yet exist.

Heck, maybe one of the reasons the Federation comes into existance is to prevent Cowboys with new warp 5 engines from running off and meddling with the development of other worlds, to AVOID catastrophies like alien manipulation of another's genome.

I just don't see enough motivation in this ep for Archer to make this decision, and that is what I'm railing against.

(Time to insert "operative phrase" again.)

D47

Next wk, Reed in blue underroos, speaking of decontam scenes, Lauren
david g -- 27 Jan 2002, 09:21 EST

Hey Lauren,

I really agree with you completely on the dislike of "meaningless argument" btwn Archer and Tpol...

but i find myself quite fond of Blalock's performance, which is, to my mind, witty and icy yet sympathetic.

i also didnt like Tuvvy too much at first--I hate saying this, but i was bewildered at seeing a black Vulcan at first; Im ashamed of that reaction now--but now I adore him. I think Tim Russ is superb. Tuvok never got as much as he was worth on VOY.

My main prob w/ENT continues to be wildly miscast Bakula. o well, i wont go into that again.

dg

Hailing frequencies scrambled, Deb
david g -- 27 Jan 2002, 09:30 EST

I agree completely with Terry about the episode's moral mistake at the end--and i agree completely with you that Archer's acceptance of Phlox's suggestion was a huge mistake.

What i said in my previous post was that the EPISODE took the "wrong side of the argument"--not that YOU did.

i do, however, disagree w/you about those old movies and their continued effectiveness....!

dg

Unexpected remains my favorite so far
david g -- 27 Jan 2002, 09:34 EST

But DD was quite good, until its awful ending. such a shame cuz i was really impressed by most of the ep, and i love PHlox, and think he works quite well w/the rest of the crew.

Cutler's a cuite and a smartie and i hope she returns.

dg

Didn't think you said "I" took the wrong side, david...
Deb47 -- 27 Jan 2002, 10:28 EST

I knew you were referring to Archer. I meant whether his answer was right or wrong in isolation, was a matter of opinion, as has been demonstrated by this board.

My opinion was based on what we know of this man, the "poetics" of the character that TPTB have established thus far. Having him come to this answer so easily was as incomprehensible as Tom's suggestion to Tuvok that Insurrection Alpha Janeway should execute the traitorous Maquis.

D47

The problem we can all agree on...
Sherry -- 27 Jan 2002, 18:05 EST

...was his deciding so fast.

I'm having a hard time deciding what I think of his decision. Emotionally, I'm against it; logically, I can see motivations in both directions. In any case, it's far from an easy decision! It would have been better drama if we'd seen him struggling with it.

I can't help remembering the notion some of TPTB had that Janeway was too strict or something. Is this a case of their trying to avoid showing Archer in this light?

The other thing we can all agree on is that it's great to have an episode drawing out this kind of discussion and debate again!

Sherry

Well said, Sherry! NIM
david g -- 27 Jan 2002, 20:38 EST

I second that WOW.
Ronit -- 28 Jan 2002, 09:20 EST

Deb, if only you were Phlox's penpal....

Ronit

I'm glad you hand them that box, though, Deb.
Nina -- 28 Jan 2002, 09:21 EST

Instead of deciding for them, and not bothering to tell them about all the options.

I was going to ask you why you stopped writing poetry, until I remembered that I stopped just as long ago because that particular muse stopped visiting me! So you, too, wondered about that prophecy back then? Interesting!

Better than that wife #$!
Deb47 -- 28 Jan 2002, 13:39 EST

D47

Gee, Deb, do I sense an opinion of some kind here?
Ronit -- 28 Jan 2002, 14:13 EST

Ronit

Re: Gee, Deb, do I sense an opinion of some kind here?
Deb47 -- 28 Jan 2002, 17:04 EST

Actually, more typo related than opinion related.

Was supposed to read.... better a penpal than wife #4... but forgot to hit the shift button.

D47

Re: Why the work stoppage?
Deb47 -- 28 Jan 2002, 17:11 EST

Believe it or not, I didn't have anything else to say! I was actually so pleased with that one, that I felt nothing else could surpass it, so why try?

Actually, the combination of change in life circumstances soon after that (life got much busier after leaving my undergrad studies) and change of interests conspired together to force me to leave poetry behind and stay in the world of prose.

We'll have to see if I should stay there. I've set myself an impossible task. Write something that would please me, Shadda and D'Alaire equally.

Well... at least to please ME!

D47

Jonathan Frakes with his beard--
Mindy -- 1 Feb 2002, 19:04 EST

YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! etc., etc., etc., etc.,etc., ad infinitum.

As I've always stated, Genie Francis is one damn lucky woman!

Mindy