The Coffee Nebula Board is for the discussion of Star Trek: Voyager and other sci-fi/cult shows. This is its Archive of episode discussions, top ten lists, fan fiction, and other miscellaneous musings.
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"Who would have thought that this eclectic group of voyagers could actually become a family. Starfleet, Maquis, Klingon, Talaxian, hologram, Borg... even Mr Paris." |
EndgameSeason Finale Hey there, Does anyone on the board right now remember me? I was about to do the same thing that Jules was doing, watch Season 7 back to back this week in time for the finale. But my best friend was in crisis for the last two weeks and it sucked up all my time. So I decided to tape it on Wednesday night. What happens, I put in the wrong date to tape and I miss it. I set the VCR to tape it on Saturday. I come home with 45 mins left to go in the finale and realize that the VCR is not taping. Why? I set the wrong time. I realize why I was destined not to see too much of this episode. Chakotay and Seven, everytime I think of it, I shudder!!!! But like Jules, my juices for Voyager has started to flow again. And I will admitt it, although I have yet to see the entire season 7, I miss Voyager. So I would like to know if anyone out there has a copy of the finale, or can make a copy of the finale and send it to me. I would greatly appreciate it. Please use the e-mail address above. In case you are affraid that I am paramount posing as a board member, please feel free to ask the old timers about me. Thanks in Advance, Leonie Leonie, you're alive! Your name was mentioned several times during the Neb Odd-yssey last week. We all wondered what had become of you. You missed a great trip. I'm sorry to say that I did not get the finale on tape, but I'm sure some of the other folk have. As for Chak and 7, I share your reaction. As I told everyone on Wednesday night, "It's just icky." Vickie Hey Vickie, welcome back! What did you think about the finale? Im still waiting for other Nebbies... to post what they thought about the finale. david g Leonie! Good to hear from you! I'm sorry to hear that you missed the final episode though. Hopefully one of our US comrades can help you out. It's worth seeing... because even if Chakotay/Seven does squick you, it sure wakes him up and gets him acting. Jules Leonie who? Do we know you? I would have just loved to see the look on your face when watching the finale and all those Chak/7 scenes! LOL!! The pairing does not really bother me. I get the impression that chak has had his eye on her for a while but held back because she was emotionally still a child. He has often shot her that sly look and smile he used to reserve for Janeway. Once he saw her spread her emotional wings, then heard via Voyagers gossip tree about Sevens holoprogram its not a huge leap for him to declare his interest and for her to respond. I get the impression that the final ep was set quite a while after the other ep in the season and that a lot had happened off screen. Sure it would have been nice to see some build up though. Overall i just loved the finale. Janeway X 2 was great. The older learning from the older and the older finding her youthful idealism from the younger. I was initially disapointed in the last scene but with hindsight it was very poinient and did not decend into schmaltzy soap. A full on tearful re-union could have easily decended to this level. One uber geek detail I noticed was that there was a starship escorting Voyager which looked suspiciously like the U.S.S. Prometheus from message in a bottle? If it was it was a nice touch as she was the first Starfleet vessel to contact Voyager. Maybe someone who taped it could confirm it. Tim Anyone read into Doc/Joe's "trophy" wife? I didn't notice it at first, but on second viewing it hit me like a sledgehammer--so much that I sat up and took note. You get the feeling Doc married Lana to help him feel "accepted" among humans? It certainly felt that way; watching Doc--once the lead voice in the Holographic Rights Movement--puffing his chest while introducing his triumphant prize to Tom... On that note, are Tom's comments considered prejudicial? Perhaps, but Tom's attempts to back-pedal, pointing out that he himself is in a "mixed marriage", wouldn't be much comfort to Doc I imagine. I'm betting that in the late 24th century, a marriage between a human and a half human/half klingon would generate far less gossip as opposed to a marriage between a human and a hologram. No wonder Doc and Lana eloped. I find it naive to think that their marriage is a bed of roses, devoid of ridicule by narrow-minded segments of society. After all, it was only 30 years ago that holograms were considered no more than walking toasters. I doubt attitudes have changed that much since then. The tall Statuesque Blonde? She was merely a replacement for Docs true love, Seven of Nine. It figures he would go for the closest match he could find. At first glance I actually thought it was Seven. Tim I had an entirely different thought when I saw her. I was intrigued by the similarities in looks between her and Seven. There are two conclusions that can be drawn from this: either the Doc has a type, and she and Seven are it... or the Doc never really got over Seven and, since he couldn't have her, married someone who reminded him of her. I see her more as a Seven substitute than a trophy wife. The Doctor is unique, and while he never lets us forget that, it does put him in a fairly lonely position. It seems to me that that might very well be a motivating factor behind his marriage. And, since I'm thinking that way, the much discussed disparity between their ages doesn't offend me. (As a champion of the Janeway/Paris cause, age gaps don't really worry me in any case. Either way round.) But if the Doctor married Lana because of her resemblance to Seven, he'd most likely be remembering Seven as she was when he met her. And don't forget, he never got to see her grow a great deal older. Also, the Doctor himself isn't that old... it's just that his holographic matrix makes him look that way. He was pretty much born the day Voyager ended up in the Delta Quadrant. Which would, from what I remember of his bride's appearance, make them somewhat similar in age. Sure, he was a little smug about having a young bride. But he's always a little smug. My guess would be that if the marriage lasts, he may eventually come to regard his unchanging appearance as a curse rather than a blessing, as his wife ages and he finds it to be one aspect of humanity that he can't follow her in. Jules Agree Tim. From behind, when doc and blonde were entering the room, I thought it was Seven too. I noticed it even more the second viewing. I never saw the scene as saying anything interesting about "mixed marriage", regardless of Tom's comment, because of the trophy blonde's resemblance to Seven. IF that was what the writers were trying to do, they should have chosen someone with a different appearance. It would also have established doc's ability to grow and change despite being a hologram. And why do we assume she's dumb? By the way, where was the Mobile Emitter? NIM I assumed that the mobile emitter had been reduced in size in thirty years. Otherwise, Tom couldn't have mistaken Joe's wife for a hologram. BTW, who says Tom's remarks were prejudiced? Maybe the Doc had been dating exclusively within his own photonic species up until then. Was he wearing his Fleet insignia? Maybe they've put it in there. Or maybe he wears it underneath his clothing. Well he could always do like Andrew in Bicentennial Man... Remember when Portia was aging and wanted to pass on? Andrew couldn't stand to live without her, so he in effect arranged to die. Doc could possibly do the same thing, provided they he and Lana meet at all in this new timeline, thanks to Admiral Janeway. I assumed he was "covering it up"... the way he did when he impersonated the crew in "Renaissance Man" or the faux Janeway in "Live Long and Prosper". For someone teasing Tom about "his" lack of tolerance... should we "assume" something about his own attempt(?)desire to "pass" as an organic? D47 Here's my OTHER big ENDGAME mystery MISTER Chakotay? Does this mean Chak is back to NO rank in Starfleet? Icy, no? david g moved to prevent thread scrolling problems - originally in reply to Q's "Well he could always do like Andrew in Bicentennial Man..." As noted in my original review, I found D/Lanna the 2nd creepiest thing... Even creepier than Chakotay/Seven, but not quite as creepy as Janeway/Seven. Lanna did strike as particularly intelligent, warm or fun, granted given who wrote the script it's hardly surprising. I don't understand why the Doc would be so obsessed with Seven. Denara Pel was a billion times more attractive as a person and potential partner than Seven. Heck in Someone to Watch Over Me, Doc's holo-Seven was actually a lot nicer and warmer than the ice queen and in Endgame Seven's entire personality was rewritten. 2nd sentence should read "Lanna did NOT..." NIM. I would say in the finale, Seven's behavior flows naturally from HUMAN ERROR She has learned a lot about expressing herself...i found her very appealing talking to Neelix, esp...i think Jeri Ryan really knows how to give Seven nuances, shadings, and depth. david g I didn't sound that way to me. "Mister" is how a superior addresses an officer when not choosing to use the person's rank. Usually when Janeway has asked Chakotay to take the conn, she's called him "Commander" - and it's a touch of formality that means, "I'm calling on you for this important task." It's sort of like (reverse side of the coin) "Aye, Captain" or "Yes, ma'am." Just part of the culture in which they're communicating. Re: Here's my OTHER big ENDGAME mystery I noticed the same thing, David. In the US Navy and Marine Corps (which is near and dear to me), 04s and under are addressed as 'Mister'. So ensigns, Lieutenants full and junior grade, and Lt. Cmdrs are addressed as 'mister', while all others are addressed by rank. So, it's "Mr. Roberts," "Commander McHale," "Colonel Hogan," and..."Commander Chakotay." So, it really went 'clang' with me. I think it was just a screw up, but, like you, I really noticed it. I must take issue with that... besides the fact that I discount Braga's Error as an ep that doesn't exist (along with Fury and others), Seven learned nothing at the end of it. She was as stiff as ever, and I didn't see any loosening up in subsequent episodes. As we've discussed at length below, her demeanor in EG was very appealing but imho it was not "Seven" at the point in time. She struck me as almost an entirely different character. I saw the changes in Seven's behavior. . . . . .as just another bit of audience manipulation in order to make her "romance" with Chakotay more appealing. Soften her up, make her more girly-girl, and people won't mind so much when this relationship suddenly comes out of left field. Too bad they didn't think of it about two years ago, so that it would have made some sense now. But then I suppose they'd have lost the demographic that prefers Untouchable Ice Princess Seven. And we certainly wouldn't have wanted THAT, now would we? MEG (back at work two days and already hanging out waiting for the next meeting to start.) Who assumed she was dumb? What people are saying is that she resembled Seven. And that the doc was so shallow he needed a trophy wife who looked like Seven. Anyway, trophy wives these days are often young *and* brainy. OTOH, I don't think it's intelligence, Seven's or anyone's, that Biller et al were mecessarily aiming for. Well, Malcolm I just learned something from you. Which means that the day in which my car's engine light went to CHECK and stayed on, and in which I accidentally p*ssed off a book reviewer, may have hope for redemption after all. Sounds plausible, Malcom To the best of my recollection, the person on board Voyager who gets called "Mister" most often is Paris. Which would certainly agree with your observation about Lieutenants, Ensigns and the junior ranks. I think that it was probably just a bit of helmperson transference on the part of the writers when Janeway invited Chakotay to take the pilot's chair. On the other hand, if it applies to Lieutenant Commanders as well, maybe the writers didn't goof. I still maintain that Chakotay, like the previous XO Cavit, is a Lieutenant Commander rather than a full Commander in any case. Check his pips. Okay, bars. Jules (Who doesn't have a Chakotay closeup handy right now to prove the point, but can probably find one if necessary.) Re: Sounds plausible, Malcom You're right. I'm really not sure of his rank and the stuff on his collar is kind of confusing. But Trek seems to follow naval traditions, so I'm assuming he's a full three dots. That would also make sense as it would be very unusual for a ship to be run by an 06 (Captain) and an 04(Lt. Cmdr) without an 05 around. How does the RN do these things? I'm not sure. Where's Tim? I've always rationalised it that Voyager is a small ship. By Starfleet standards at least. As a result of that they'd have a lot fewer officers than the huge Enterprise-D/E, and correspondingly fewer at the top end of the ranks. And as captains go, Janeway was probably pretty junior. Cavit was definitely a Lieutenant Commander, according to the pips on his collar. So was the original Doctor who died, Tuvok (until halfway through Cathexis when wardrobe demoted him to full Lieutenant because they'd been getting his title wrong), and quite possibly the Chief Engineer that we never saw as well. We don't know what rank Chakotay held before he resigned from Starfleet, but his insignia certainly suggest that Janeway made him the same rank as his predecessor in the job, which would be very like her. I confess however that such Naval rank knowledge as I have comes almost exclusively from the Hornblower novels, so can't really comment on whether it's plausible that you'd skip having an officer of Commander rank aboard. I just maintain that they didn't. Jules It was consistant with Trek usage - Spock (Full Commander & XO) was called Mr. all the time Never made any sense that the XO was only a LTCDR when the Captain has the rank of Captain (as opposed to a Commander captaining a ship and therefore being addressed as Captain). Perhaps, since Voyager was just commissioned and its a new class of ship HQ hadn't finalized the rank structure when they left; they did leave ahead of schedule on what was supposed to be a three week mission. Of course a lot of what the Voyager PTBs did with ranks didn't make much sense (Examples: Engineering has to be the biggest department yet Torres is only a LT (jg); and in the future Doc's been accepted as sentient, is a senior officer in Starfleet Medical and still doesn't have a real rank.) Hopefully their ranks will get straightened out now that they're home. Re: I must take issue with that... I see your point.. But I wonder if the fact that we saw Seven playing kotiskot with Neelix, and learned that he's been giving her social lessons (finally from an organic being and not a holographic Doc or Holographic Chak) opened the door for her to "loosen up". Previously, she only played with the children... or Neelix when she thought she was dieing. I think we can also see her "loosening up" at the end of Natural Law, after her exposure to the alien aboriginal girl. I do see your point, that she "wasn't" our Seven, and yet we saw "our" Seven too. The woman who shyed away from the strange woman in the white hair, and the woman who automatically assumed she should avoid Chak in order not to break his heart. D47 Well, I believe that in the old, old Royal Navy that most ships were commanded by a captain and a bunch of lieutenants. With midshipmen not being commissioned officers. They only invented the rank of Commander so skippers of the smallest warships outranked all their lieutenants (who might overwise have more seniority). So captains and commanders didn't serve on the same ships originally. As for Voyager, isn't really too small a vessel to rate a captain as its skipper? Are subs with about that size crew commanded by captains or commanders or even lieutenant commanders? Let's be honest... On Voyager there are really only two ranks: hers and theirs. LOL ! Malcom. Ain't THAT the truth on ALL the Star Trek series!
D47 Tracey, I willingly give myself up the goddess! NIM Re: Mr. Chakotay. And weighing in on the ranks. I've always taken it per Trek usage that "Mr." or "Miss" was simply a way to address an officer without using the rank. Picard, I think, did so all the time. My quasi-fanfic captain that I write almost exclusively refers to her subordinates as "Mr." or "Miss". As for the first officer question, I have long been under the impression that small ships did not necessitate a Captain/Commmander duo. If you think way way back, Spock was only a Lieutenant Commander, and yet was science officer and first officer also. Cavit, as Jules points out, was definitely a Lieutenant Commander. Depending on who you read, Janeway was either a captain on her first mission or had only a very few under her belt, so it makes sense that they would have sent her out with a small ship and without a higher-ranking officer. Who's to say, by the way, that Janeway reinstated Chakotay as a Lieutenant Commander because she was planning on him being her first officer? He was in Starfleet before and that may have been the rank he previously held. BTW: just because he is uniformly referred to as 'Commander' does not mean that he is a full commander; if you remember, Data was either called "Mr. Data" or "Commander Data". I have wandered all over the place here. 216 I believe Spock was a full Commander. I believe some confusion might arise from the unique TOS rank insignis. They don't match TNG ranks or the current US/UK navy ranks. I believe that Spock only had two solid and one thin/dashed stripes on his sleeve which would seem to be Lt. Cmdr. but Kirk IIRC only had three solid bands himself. At least that's how I seem to remember it. And I forget the exact etiquette but Spock was always referred to Commander Spock even on those occasions when the full title of Lieutenant Commander Spock would have been appropriate (if he held that rank). Of course, the Enterprise had a much larger crew than Voyager. Mr/Cdr Spock, but NEVER 'Dr Spock' Another long essay on rank: I think Spock was a Lt. Cdr also, and I think Kirk, although Captain of a ship, was a full commander rather than an actual Captain in rank. Did he wear four stripes? I don't think so. If so, then it explains why Janeway, another youthful commanding officer also had such a rank. The rank 'Lieutanant' as a modifier for another rank, like Colonel or Commander is never spoken, just written. This is why Oliver North was referred to as "Colonel" North rather than the accurate Lt. Colonel. Lt. Col is equivalent with a full commander in the navy (US and RN I believe)so he would be addressed by rank, in his case, by the abbreviated. North was what is called a "bottlecap colonel" as the oakleaves look like a bottlecap from a distance. A commander wears the same oak leaves. Colonels Potter and Hogan are what are called 'full' or more commonly 'bird' colonels, as Colonels and US navy Captains wear eagle insignia on their uniforms (and, more importantly, on the bumpers of their cars to ensure a snappy salute and a reserved parking space as they drive onto the base). Voyager has been pretty good in following these protocols (early years of JAG, conversely are full of all sorts of stupid errors like people saluting each other while not wearing hats, etc.) To be frank, Janeway, particularly in the early years seems to be too much the sweet young thing to have achieved bird rank. I think it would have been more accurate for her to have been a commander. Most ships and submarines have commanders as captains until you get to the big stuff (carriers or flagships). Which would have explained why Picard is a Captain but why Kirk and Janeway should have been commanders. No doubt that if Voyager had followed regular promotion patterns, it would have been like the Confederate Air Force where "everybody's a colonel" by the time they got home. Enlisted personnel are addressed by their last names only, so it's "Klinger" rather than Mr. or Corporal. Jules, I too was trying to think back to the Hornblower books which I read many of. Midshipman Hornblower, Captain Hornblower, Hornblower Meets Godzilla, etc. I loved them. Ockham's razor suggest to me that TOS used non-contempory insignia, not that everyone called captain were actually Commanders, etc. Kirk was named by rank in official hearing, court-martials, etc. He was a captain and a Captain. Besides, I remember that Scotty was sometimes referred to as a Lt. Cmdr. while Spock never was. Am I remembering this right? Wasn't one of Kirk's "claims to fame"... the fact that he was the "youngest" Captain in Starfleet, at the time of his promotion? D47 I agree, too I reacted to her as a "substitute" for Seven. I thought Tom referred to a mixed marriage to pull his foot out of his mouth, not because he saw it as a serious comparison. I'm sure that the writers--and if not the writers, the casting director--thought about the Seven resemblence for this short scene. LOL, malcom! I don't think I read Hornblower Meets Godzilla. Must have missed that one. Otherwise I think I agree with Terry that they changed the Starfleet rank insignia between TOS and TNG, along with the colour of the uniforms and sundry other details. Don't forget, after all, that the design that was used universally for the communicator badges in the later series was originally only a uniform badge to denote that the crewmember in question belonged to the Enterprise. Other ships had different designs. A lot changed during that time, and it's entirely possible that Starfleet absorbed the military rank conventions of some other organisation as it folded it within itself during those years. Not all of the influences on Starfleet's hierarchy will have originated from Earth culture, after all. Perhaps the three stripes = captain came from a different planet within the Federation. Jules Yes, but what we've never been told in canon (won't pretend I've read every single book!) is whether that means "youngest to hold four-pip rank" or "youngest to command a ship." Although "Preserver," through which I'm slogging (I bought the first two books in the trilogy because they feature the AU Janeway, so now I'm finishing it if it kills me), seems to indicate that he was the youngest to command a ship sufficiently large (in crew complement, tonnage, etc.) to merit a four-pip officer in its center seat. Taking "our Seven" a bit further reminds me again of what a fantastic job Mulgrew did in portraying the two Janeways. Was there any doubt that these were two separate and different individuals? Was there any question which one was "our Janeway?" Not in my mind The Admiral was a delightful character with her wonderfully debatable motives, her hard (and soft) edges, and her "ethically challenged" actions. But it's Oh Captain, My Captain for me I admire your persistence. I loved the first one in the trilogy... with the A/U Janeway. Tolerated the 2nd... and got half? way through the third before I stalled and set it down. I hope I'm not missing anything "too" earth shattering.
D47 Not that I can see at mid-point. Oddly enough, I don't usually finish a book if it's not doing much for me. A "completist," I'm not! But "Preserver" keeps throwing me a bone, so to speak, just as I'm about to throw IT somewhere. So I'll probably finish it - but a chapter or two at a time. It's not a "stay up half the night to finish this wonderful story" item, definitely. What annoyed me was liking the first book so much that I bought the second in hard cover, by mail order. I waited for the third until I found it in paperback - at Wal-Mart, if you please. I'm also slogging through "Ashes of Victory," after swallowing every previous Honor Harrington novel whole. "Oh Captain.... My Captain!!! Sigh. So, Maggie, our little con traveling group got together to talk over the trip and plan our "Wednesdays with Kathryn" get togethers. We're going to meet monthly to eat and (re)watch Voyager from the beginning. Sigh. I knew if I looked hard enough, I'd find a support group to help me through this. What? How "dare" you suggest they are simply "enabling" me to "avoid the obvious"... they are wise women who know one need a "Tail of the dog who bit me"... the morning after!
D47 but offered a hit to an addict. If EG left me wanting more Janeway, it must have been hell for the HOJ. That makes sense to me The The Star Fleet Encyclopedia shows the Lieutenant Commander's insignia in both versions as you describe it. Ben Sisko served as first officer of the Okinawa and later the Saratoga while he was a lieutenant commander. So it's not out of line for the executive officers to hold that rank. Probably only the larger starships, like the Enterprise, make a practice out of having full commanders as first officers and department heads. Janeway would probably have been very hesitant to promote Chakotay to a higher rank than Lieutenant Commander Cavit. Making him first officer was a way to make the Maquis members part of the crew, but making him full commander could have antagonized the Starfleet regulars who had known and served with Cavit. Sherry To mimic Maxwell Smart again..."Would you believe...?" Maggie was kind enough to observe..."If EG left me wanting more Janeway, it must have been hell for the HOJ." Believe it or not, I think this Cleveland con was one of the best things for THIS member of "The HOJ". First, it took me out of the house, and away from the danged internet, and so limited my contact with "Endgame" reviewing and regurgitation. It allowed the memory of the film to "steep" in my consciousness, and to resolve/acclimate to certain things I "did not" expect. C/7 was NOT one of those things. I'd been spoiled "enough" to know where "that" story line was going, and so had braced myself for it. The "truncated" ending was one I had to come to grips with, and during the flight to Cleveland, I realized the show gave me "more" followup than I'd ever dreamed. 33 years of followup all be it, in a "now" A/U version of Voyager. Considering this was a Trek weekend, we ladies didn't dwell overly on the show, once we shared our inital impressions. I guess, in a way, you could say we were in "denial" about the "end" of Janeway et al... There was NO denial, however, of that end when the convention opened up... and as uproarious as was Roxanne's welcome to the con... I thought the roof was going to blow off the ballroom when Mulgrew walked on stage. The energy in that welcome cauterized the wound left by Voyager's "passing"... I was no longer in denial, I was past anger, bargaining, depression and was firmly into acceptance. Here we were, a huge support group for one purpose only. To honor the women who made us love this show. It was a wonderful catharsis, Maggie, and I'm glad I went. Not to mention... glad to see George is as cute in person as he is on TV!
D47 Sworn to the House of Janeway...and Danged proud of it!
I've always thought there must have been some very careful politics in Janeway's rank appointments. She had to tread a very fine line, when giving rank to Chakotay, and then to Paris and Torres, between giving them too much or too little. Too little, and they'd get no respect from the people under them. Too much, and she'd be taken to task by Starfleet when she got back, and she'd put too many Starfleet crew members' noses out of joint. Chakotay got the rank of his predecessor. And, while we're never told what rank he had prior to his resignation, it's clear that he must have been somewhere around the Lt Comm/Commander level. She probably just reinstated the rank he already had, and breathed a sigh of relief that it was such that it met the requirements of the job he was getting on the ship. We don't know what rank Paris had prior to being cashiered either, unless you take the Jeri Taylor books as canon. I don't, because the Ensign history she assigns to him doesn't agree well with the "feel" of Starfleet experience that I saw RDM project on the screen for him in the early years of the show. I'd have guessed that he too probably got back the rank he'd previously held, which fortunately happened to be just about high enough to agree with his position of department head. (But only just about. I don't know about the rest of you, but Begonia and I have a theory that as Chief Pilot and Navigator, he was in charge of Stellar Cartography - and presumably Astrometrics - as well as the rest of the pilots. Which theoretically makes him Crewman Seven's boss. But I digress. B'Elanna's rank's a difficult one. She never finished the Academy, so the only time she ever spent as an Ensign was the couple of days of seniority as a Lieutenant that Tom once claimed over her. She didn't have the time in Starfleet to get a particularly high rank, but she did have the life and on the job experience as an engineer to qualify her to run the department. So in her case I think Janeway compromised, and gave her a rank slightly lower than she'd be expected to have as Chief Engineer on a ship that size and somewhat higher than her paper qualifications entitled her to. My guess would be that, since Engineering is one of the bigger departments on the ship, the Chief Engineer would normally have a rank somewhere around the level of Tuvok's... as a very senior full lieutenant, or a comparatively recent lieutenant commander. B'Elanna's rank inevitably led to the situation where some of the people she commanded had seniority in rank to her, but I think it's just symptomatic of the difficulties of Voyager's personnel situation at the time she got the job, rather than an all-out mistake. We do, after all, know that TPTB were aware that Carey had seniority. Jules Not only did TPTB know about Carey's seniority... they showed the crew knew too. Carey was quick to point it out to B'Elanna, and even after she was promoted to "chief"... at least 2 (?) starfleet officers lodged official complaints regarding that promotion ... according to what Janeway told Chakotay at the end of that ep. D47 I don't agree with your theory, Jules... IMHO, Navigation and Stellar cartography/Astrometrics are two entirely different departments; Cartography and Astrometrics simply chart the environment whereas Navigation plots the shortest/safest/best course through the region. I certainly agree with your and Begonia's assessment of what constituted Tom's department. Especially Astrometrics, I would expect he would be spending a great deal of time there so it is only practicle that it be part of his department. It makes perfect sense. A ship that size shouldn't have very many departments so many are probably collapsed into one. The 13 department heads that Janeway referres to in "Scientific Method" had me laughing. Huge carriers with thousands of crew on them don't have that many departments. Do they have a department that washes the dishes and one that puts them away? They probably shouldn't have more then 5 or 6. As for the ranks, I think they had it right in the very beginning then when they switched the ranks in the middle of, I can't remember which episode, they kind of screwed themselves up. If they had kept Tuvok as Lt. Comm and Paris and Torres as Full Lt.s then they would have been able to easily promote Harry in season four to Lt. JG and thus rid themselves of the riduculous rank of Ensign they kept him at for 7 years. They wouldn't have had to promote anyone else and everyone would have been happy. All they needed to do was go back and redub all the referrences to Tuvok as Lt. instead of Comm. and everything would have been fine. I think people would have been less upset with the Paris demotion if he would have still been called Lt. instead of Ensign also. They could have had their cake and eaten it too. Shadda I don't think Voyager has a separate Navigator job On both TOS and TNG you saw both a helmsman and a navigator sitting at the front of the bridge. Bigger ships, with bigger crews, so they had two separate people to carry out those functions. But on Voyager Tom sits up front all on his own. Calling out where the anomaly/big bad spaceship of the week is coming from or running away to seems to get shared around the bridge, but it largely seems to be a secondary role of the pilot. If they want someone to plot a course, Tom is usually seen to do it, and then to fly it. (Unless it's something discussed at one of those meetings in Astrometrics that, bizarrely, he so seldom gets invited to. But I'm sure most people here have heard me rant on that subject before. As for Stellar Cartography/Astrometrics... in "Imperfection" Tom is the person that Seven refers Icheb to when he needs someone to review the material in the Academy's astrometrics courses. Since, as she says herself, Icheb already knows more about astrometrics than most Starfleet officers, she wouldn't send him to anybody who wasn't well versed enough in the subject to help him. Granted, Tom majored in Astrometrics at the Academy, but this would seem to suggest - as does his conversation with the Delaney sisters in "Thirty Days" - that he has some job-related responsibilities in that field as well. So yes, I would see both Navigation and Stellar Cartography/Astrometrics as falling under Tom's responsibilities as a senior officer. They're very closely related disciplines. You can't plot that shortest/safest/best course through the sector unless someone else is busy charting it, after all. Jules Okay, Jules, you win! I'm not that good at remembering all those little facts.... alas. You're right! This is what I meant by "Preserver" throwing me a bone every time I considered saying, "Forget it." I'm quoting a paragraph that DEFINITELY belongs here, on a Voyager board. "I don't care who gave MacDonald her job," Picard said (omitted stuff). "...she's a starship captain. And that makes her self-centered, self-righteous, overconfident, and the stubbornest life form in the galaxy." Chuckle, chuckle. I'm glad I bothered to finish it. (Last night.) Can anyone who's made it through "Ashes of Victory" promise me I'll be equally glad if I stick with that one, too? About Ashes of Victory, Nina...(Mild Honor Harrington spoilers) I liked Ashes of Victory just fine, IIRC. It's been a while since I read it. Was that the one that had so much of the Peeps in it? They all start to run together after a while. I guess it's time to start re-reading the series. The one that I had trouble reading was In Enemy Hands. When it looked like Honor or Nimitz might not make it in one piece (or even in just two or three), I had to turn to the back and read the end just to reassure myself that they survived! And the degree of reassurance was so pitiful that I read the rest of the book backwards. No, I'm not kidding. I've never done that before in my life, but I actually finished the book backwards, a chapter at a time. Well, you see, each chapter began so horribly that I had to read the one before to find out how they got themselves in that situation! Have I ever mentioned how often I wished that Captain Janeway had been just a bit more Honor Harrington? Well, not the part that kept getting half her crew killed, but everything else. Vickie Re: I don't think Voyager has a separate Navigator job They do have an astrogation plotter, as Janeway notes in "Parallax." Astrometrics and Stellar Cartography are in fact separate departments, with department heads. Just as their is a transporter chief (again, "Parallax") and as I'm sure department heads of other significant areas (ie environmental control). But all these personnel in charge of said departments report to the senior most officer in their disciplines. And the lines fudge a bit as well. Harry and B'Elanna's areas cross, as do Tom's and B'Elanna's, Harry's and Tom's, Tom's and Seven's, even Tuvok's and Harry's, and Harry's and Seven's. They all report to Chakotay and Tuvok. And they all report to the Captain. It's the chain of command and a system of checks and balences. yeah...*sigh* I don't want to know what I would be like without that weekend! I was a nutball, an absolute nutball all day that Wednesday. I couldn't sleep, couldn't eat. I was way too excited to be healthy. I watched the finale 4 times before I left. Watched it again at Shuckers. Watched it again while getting ready for the cocktail party - I cannot believe it was rerunning from 6-8 that night of all nights! Finished finale then went to cocktail party; Perfect night. And then had a nice long drive home to unwind, cry a little - for the end of it all, both show and weekend and for the realization that the end is only the beginning. I may miss my friends entering the living room every Wednesday but that's what "scrapboooks" (videos) and occasional get togethers (cons) are for. Meanwhile I have begun beautiful new friendship built on the heels of the old, ones that I will treasure. I'll be okay. I thought it would be a lonely road for me to travel, as I am the only Trek fan I know in a state wide radius. Thank heavens for the Internet.
My official declaration: Life long member of the House of Janeway...proud of the attitude and proud to flaunt it! But are Stellar Cartography and Astrometrics entirely separate? I'd always rather seen Astrometrics as an offshoot of the Stellar Cartography department. And certainly the Delaney sisters (who were quite positively identified as being in Stellar Cartography) discussed working with Seven (Astrometrics) in "Thirty Days". Apart from anything else, a department of one (or two, if you count Icheb) would be rather silly. So I'm inclined to see Astrometrics as a Stellar Cartography subdivision. Ultimately, you're right: it comes down to lines of reporting. But I don't see anyone on board senior to Tom whose job responsibilities would make them the appropriate reporting line for Stellar Cartography, so whether it has a department head or not (and wouldn't you expect to have seen Seven butting heads with them if it did?), they probably still ultimately report to Tom. Jules It took me about six months to read In Enemy Hands I was just getting such bad vibes off everybody else about it at one point that I put the book aside and pretended it wasn't there for a while, because I didn't want to know who or what Weber might decide to decimate by the end of it. I don't trust him. He has a nasty tendency to kill the characters I like, and support the ones I don't care about one way or the other. It's probably about time I got around to Ashes Of Victory though. I bought it in March, and brought it with me on the Neb trip... but I don't consider Weber to be good reading for air travel (too much death and destruction, and I prefer a lighter and less complex read when I'm switching multiple timezones.) Jules Thanks, Vickie and Jules. I guess my tastes are somewhat different; reading a bit from the middle of "In Enemy Hands" as I stood in the bookstore was what convinced me to buy the entire series. Then I did something I rarely do - forced myself to read the books in order, as much as I wanted to dive right into that one! Am I a sadist? Hardly; I put insects outside when they get into my house. BUT - in my fiction I love characters who go through the kind of "fiery trial" Honor endured in "In Enemy Hands" and come out the other side changed, yet triumphant. Jules, you're right about Weber's tendency to kill off likeable characters. (I've had editors warn ME not to do that - I wonder why his editor lets him??? You hit the turn-off of "Ashes" right on the head, Vickie. It's too much Peep politics. I HATE politics. Perhaps because my job causes me to see politicians at far too close a range for me to, um, appreciate their beauty of spirit. Re: "My official declaration" NOW you understand!!!! Welcome, Janey,.... welcome! D47 HOJ Not exactly... but i doubt they are entirely together either. I have a feeling its a break down type thing - both function within the same discipline but are slightly different in function. Like different genres in literature. I am positive there are similar breakdowns within Engineering, Operations and Security and it is those breakdowns that make up the thirteen departments Janeway refers to in "Scientific Method." The ones I have thought of: 1. Astrometrics, 2. Stellar Cartography, 3. Navigation, 4. Tactical (weapons systems and shielding?), 5. Environmental Control (which I assume includes gel packs, artificial gravity and waste management?), 6.Transporation (transporters, shuttles and escape pods?), 7. Medical, 8-13 would include various departments within Ops and Engineering that I wouldn't know to name or categorize like: drive systems, computer core, shielding, holodecks, independent systems vs the dependent systems, power distribution, the relays, basic console functions, shipwide work stations, bathrooms, replicators, sonic showers, PADDs, Aeroponics bay, storage/supplies, Seven's alcove, the alert systems, the chronometer, communications systems, the autoshuttlegeneration unit, and so on and so forth. If you think about it, their lives were pretty much in B'Elanna's hands. When it comes down to the nitty-gritty of it, that ship and all its functions are hers and she is its god. All hail the Klingon Princess! I am in a worshiping mood today... No, I haven't forgotten who is boss. The Queen will reign forever! about the bone... That is the coolest line...and so true! And the funny thing is, it only makes us love the captains all the more. Now what book is this? I am a little confused. Ain't that the truth, Jules Jules wrote: ...I didn't want to know who or what Weber might decide to decimate by the end of it. I don't trust him. He has a nasty tendency to kill the characters I like, and support the ones I don't care about one way or the other. I still haven't forgiven Weber for killing Paul back in the third(4th?) book of the series! My biggest fear with In Enemy Hands, once we got to the folding, spindling and mutilating parts, was that Weber would actually kill Honor off. Weber clearly doesn't mind shaking things up and killing off characters no other author of a successful series would ax. I suppose that explains, in part at least, why this series is so popular: you never know what's going to happen next. And while we're talking about Honor... I have been of the opinion that Honor and the Admiral will never get together while his wife is still living. However, a friend says she thinks they will. She says polygamy is accepted on Grayson and the Admiral's wife will insist that they move to Grayson so the Admiral can have 2 wives. She says the wife will sacrifice so the Admiral can get from Honor what she can't give him. OK, I think that's kind of...icky Vickie Now, there's a possibility I hadn't thought of, Vickie. It will be interesting if Hamish Alexander's wife does make such a proposal! It's from "Preserver," which is third in a Pocket Books trilogy featuring the Alternate Universe characters crossing over into our universe with evil intentions. The first two books are "Spectre" and "Dark Victory." It's by William Shatner with co-authors Judith and Garfield Reeves-Stevens (hope I've spelled that correctly without taking time to look it up). New Voyager Novel I saw it at Union Station this morning. It's about Section 31. And guess whom they're after? 7o9! And guess who's on the cover? 7o9. Not exactly... I mean B'Elanna is good but please, she does not run the whole ship from her little console in Engineering. There as many disciplines in engineering as there are in literature. Building a bridge is different from building a car. Keeping the engines running is different from keeping the weapons on line. In fact, they didn't pull out the differences enough on Voyager as they should have. How does Steller Cartography have anything to do with Engineering? My computer is built by an engineer, the words I write on it have nothing to do with said engineer. B'Elanna may know how to keep things running, but she doesn't have anything to do with how said items are used. The engineer may build the car, you drive it and it is your car and you are responsible for where it goes and what you do when you get there, not the engineer who built it. You take it to the mechanic when it breaks down, ture, but it isn't the mechanic that does your job. I am sure that most of the people in the different departments have a very good understanding of how their equipment works and can probably fix 90% of what goes wrong. They are not all incompetent twits. We are shown just a few "Senior Staff" in the ready room, and only refer to our "Senior Staff" as the senior staff. I surmise from that that there may be 13 departments, but most are subdepartments to the ones the Senior Staff run and report to the Senior Staff, who reports to Chakotay who reports to the Captain. Shadda I know you're right but I'll find any excuse to give her praise! Re: Not exactly... As evidence of the departmental and heirarchichal structure of Voyager, you might want to consider the 'evidence' that was up on the board behind Seven during her 'efficiency review' in Good Shepard. Being the sad sort of person I am, I've tried to make notes but I don't exactly have a DVD quality copy of it, so there are several things I can't read, but the structure goes something like this. Firstly, there are four main headings. Command Sciences Engineering Crew Support. ' Under Command (which one would expect to equate to 'red shirts' but the line quickly starts blurring) are: Operations Conn Tactical Security Environmental. ' Under Sciences come Life Sciences Nativational Sensors Long Range Sensors ...and something I can't read which looks mysteriously like 'primer' ' Under Engineering: Computer Systems Warp Propulsion Impulse Propulsion Communications Transporter systems and two others I can't read ' Under Crew Support: Medical Food Replicator Crew Quarters Turbolift Holographic something or other. ' As far as I can tell there is no direct mention of Astrometrics or Stellar cartography or Navigation, so these must be smaller areas within someone's responsibility. Like Jules, I think that the department run by Seven is most likely to report to Conn under 'normal' circumstances. But because the all powerful Seven is in charge, I expect she runs this independently. Poor old Conn department gets shortchanged in this arrangement, but then maybe he got something else in exchange. Holodeck perhaps! Now according the the Next Generation Technical manual, Medical would report to the CMO directly to the captain, Conn would have responsibility for navigational systems and act as bridge liaison to engineering, and Ops would deal with nearly all the internal 'service' departments. But it's never really been explained to us just how significant the colours on the uniform shoulders really are. Red is designated as 'command track' but we still don't really know what that means. Blue is science and Yellow is officially Ship Services, I think, including engineering. Personally I would have put Tactical under the Red rather than yellow, but them I'm not in charge of the costumes - maybe they just had more of them or wanted the red ones to stand out more. Because after all, it is the 'Captains' colour. Re: I don't agree with your theory, Jules... Astrometrics IS used to plot actual courses from time to time. This happened in Alice, for one. Begonia, are you having a negative day? I just noticed that your last three posts in a row, started with "I don't agree." All have good insight. Just thought that was a funny coincidence. Di who has Gordy impressed with your fanfic Re: Begonia, are you having a negative day? Er - Yep. I've been having a 'get stressed enough to throttle someone day' although I'm not sure why. I think it's chemical - maybe something I ate! And thank you for your comment re my fic. It's appreciated. This has probably already been beat to death, but I had to speak up I think the main problem we're having here is the distinction between a "lab" and a "department". A lab would be just a room in which you worked (I'm going a little general here; I'm trying to get the words out without boxing myself into a corner) and a department would be an administrative division. Astrometrics, I think then, would be a lab, as would Stellar Cartography. An astrogation plotter, whatever the hell that is . . . they may be in charge of the Stellar Cartography lab or something. Navigation then would be the department they fall into, and Tom would be the logical senior staff member they reported to. (And we're all agreed he reports to Chakotay who reports to the Captain.) Of course, I think without actually being on Voyager or at least serving in Starfleet 216 A little thinking to myself here . . . Harry's department -- Ops -- probably a lot of maintenance things I can live with those divisions! Roll on Christmas... If past experience is anything to go with, the Voyager Technical Manual may magically appear on the shelves and answer all the queries. (Except for the bits of it that we disagree with, of course.) Here's hoping... for a Trek book that I might actually want to buy. Jules Where is your fic housed? I would love to read it. Sorry you're having a bad day. I like what you said though. And I'm not even having a bad day. You really should stay away from that leola root stew, apparently it's a killer. Shadda Re: Where is your fic housed? Oh God! A Party political canvassing van just went by the window!!! Now it doesn't matter what I ate, I'm probably going to regurgitate it. Violently. Somebody bring me an UZI! (Or would an M16 reach further and do more damage?) (For befuddled US/Aussie readers - it's general election day in the UK.) To answer your question, Shadda, what little of my fic that is actually on the web at this point is housed at Jupiter Station under the author 'Undead Begonia' There are only 3 or 4 shorts there at the present, but I've got two long babies in beta and am feverishly trying to work on the other 6 or so I haven't had time to touch in the last 18 months! http://www.jupiter-station.com/ is the present link to the main page - it's a very good site dedicated to those of us who like the idea of the Janeway and Paris relationship (Not necessarily in a romantic sense) Cheers Sarah Ah, yes, of course, I should have known. I love your stories. Great Janeway and Paris. Yes, I do spend a certain amount of time over at the Station. Please get to those other 6 stories and I look forward to the 2 that are being betaed. I am amazed at the talent on this board. There are so many of you here that I am soooo jealous of. Maybe, having Tom be a writer is a good thing. Yep, the more I think about it, the better it is, though, he had better be doing it more as a sideline and still flying and designing ships. Shadda, doing the happy new fanfic coming dance. I can top that election story I bumped into the Liberal Democrat candidate going along the road to the polling station to vote as I did the same myself. I guess it wasn't too surprising though, except for the coincidence of timing. Turns out it's my next door neighbour. Leaving the country for a couple of weeks in mid-campaign turns out to have been a good move. I've managed to avoid most of the door-to-door canvassers who will insist on asking you that awkward question about whether you're voting for their candidate. I just picked up the leaflets off the doormat when I got home instead. (And get those babies screaming and kicking into the world! I want to read the missing bits at the end of Command Potential. Jules I can tell, you guys are having wonderful Tom conversations without me! Now that "Endgame" changed history what will be different? Obviously Tuvok will recover, and Seven, presumably, won't die in 3 years (of course that's when a Voyager movie, if there ever is one is one, would come out & TPTB could kill her off then I don't see C/7 lasting now that they're home, even if they all choose to remain on Voyager. Don't know about anyone else, but I think she should hook up with Reg. While there's the same chronological age gap as with Chakotay, Reg isn't much more advanced socially; they're both more comfortable in research facilities than around other people. Starfleet ought to set the crew up as a research group, assigning Voyager as an experimental vehicle to test their prototypes under mission conditions. Given what they've come up, and the things they tried but couldn't perfect or duplicate due to lack of time, material and/or shipyards, what more could the team that designed the Delta Flyer produce with the full resources of Starfleet behind them? Why the ending of ENDGAME is perfect I loved ENDGAME the first time I watched it...and it has only grown in my affection. Still, the very first time, the ending left me cold. I wanted more; I felt shortchanged. Yet upon re-view, which clarified the events, the ending seems absolutely perfect to me; it's beautifully done. I didnt want to see a rush-job montage of the final hugs, embraces, Hey-you's that would have needed an entire episode at least to do justice to. Also, though it was touching, those final montages in the DS9 finale were cheesy filler, which VOY wisely eschewed. The fiale leaves a viewer winded and humbled. The finale leaves the viewer aware of just how FORTUNATE Voyager was to get home in the 1st place, with a baby born--la vita nuova--in the AQ, safe, sound, and a harbinger of good things to come. Voyager burst from the Sphere like a butterfly from its chrysalis. It has been reborn, and our imaginations are left free to create the lives born anew in the AQ. The more i think about it, ENDGAME seems like a masterpiece, and its ending a brilliant move. david g "To the Journey!" Harry was right.
D47 I'm glad you're able. Unfortunately, I've rewatched it a few times, and stopped because I was only making myself nutty trying to rationalize something I didn't want to have to--just don't want to, period. Sure, there's nothing anyone can do about it now, but I still keep thinking that Endgame, albeit a wonderful story, was not as good, not as solid, as it could have been. Someone said it played like a regular sweeps ep, not a finale--and I still agree with that. Just a shot of the new and improved 26 year reunion, with Janeway leading the toast and everyone there in their various changes, would have sufficed. It would have wrapped everything up without too much of that dreaded "detail." (Actually, I could have taken a few reunions and some nice concluding scenes, but that's me and my love for a lot of closure talking. --I still think they deserved the attention, though. And maybe I keep thinking on that because we at least got a shot of the "community" in the other Trek finales, a final look at the family. Here, the reunion we did see didn't do it because it was 1) at the beginning and incomplete; 2) A/U. The briefing room scene didn't do much ensemble-wise for me, either, except to further the plot. Not to mention, it really was a YAATE. All bang and bucks until the last minute, then a final shot: That's YAATE, pure and simple. Even if it does keep the door open to a ton of fanfic No matter how much they sell it, no matter how much rationalization I read (ironically, I'm glad to know some others have been able to see it differently), I can't make myself believe that it was a good decision to cut the end like they did. Sure, my imagination can fill in all the blanks--and probably in better fashion than if TPTB did do it. But that would have happened anyway. It's that TPTB thought it would be cool and okay to drop the resolution into a artsy tagline (among other things) that irks me the most. Okay, now, off my soapbox. I've been quiet about Endgame for several days now, not really wanting to sound all that negative. But anyone that knows my tastes knows I have a big thing for closure--not all the questions answered, not a perfect, wrapped-up ending, but a nice feeling of completion, a satisfaction of sorts that's difficult to describe. (The end of Workforce had a nice dose of closure, for example. It's a bit early to make a list of others) So you might imagine why I nit at the end like I do--and will continue to be not as happy as I could have been. Ah well. Most of the rest was wonderful, and despite my nits and questions, I do appreciate that much. I was able the first time around... "Coffee. The best organic suspension ever devised. It's gotten me through the worst of the past three years. I beat the Borg with it." -Hunters Somewhere along the journey the woman who uttered this wonderful line gave it up. She gave up on a lot. Even her friends she worked with for twenty-three years to get home. Who has any knowledge of her plan? B'Elanna only knows the Admiral is helping Korath get on the High Council. The Doc? Only that she needs a special medication for a classified mission. Tom and Harry know nothing. Who does? Only two. Reg Barcley was particularly helpful, exactly how we aren't quite sure, but she told him she couldn't have done it without him. He who would stop at nothing all those years ago to get a comlink between Earth and Voyager. The other? Miral Paris. How much she knows we're not sure, but she knows that the device works which implies she knows what it does. She doesn't strike me as naive so I don't think it is naive of me to assume she knows exactly what the Admiral has planned. Of all people living in her time frame, her life would change the most dramatically. Instead of being born and raised 16 years on Voyager she would at the very least be raised in the Alpha Quadrant. Apparently she's willing to change all that. That says a lot considering the only other Voyager born, Naomi, wasn't affected by the events in "Bliss." Then Harry comes along because Reg spilled the beans to the Doc. Harry Kim. The young man who in "Non Sequitor" got home, something he wants more than anything but gives it up because it isn't right. And he does it once again in "Timeless." He is the one person there who can understand why she would do this and therefore the wrong person to try to talk her out of it...as if anyone could do that anyway. He does try to convince her it is too risky. Too risky? She knew that already. Chakotay told her or well she told herself what Chakotay would have told her. But she "always assumed it was a one way trip." She told Tuvok as much. One way. Janeway or no way. It was been that way from day one. She blew up the array and it was her show from that moment forward. She tells Seven that Seven is trying to atone for atrocities she committed as a Borg. But in truth the Admiral is trying to atone for the mistake she made of passing up this road home when she had the chance and all the ones that followed. So why now? Simply it was there. It couldn't have been earlier because there is one thing she wasn't willing to give up - her crew. The very people she is going back to save. The only other feasible time to go back to would have been the array. But had she gone back then...Tom and B'Elanna never married and had Miral (a key player in this little trip of hers), Neelix wouldn't have met with Dexa and Brax, Seven never would have been severed from the Collective, Icheb never saved, The Doc tossed into mines with the other Mark Ones, The Borg Resistance never would have occurred, Kes never would have left the confines of Ocampa (because I really don't think KJ would have dragged those two across the galaxy) and most importantly one third of the crew she went back to save would be thrown in prison. That isn't the future KJ had in mind. So the Admiral tells the Captain she spent 10 years searching for a way to get Voyager home sooner. So from the minute she got back she was still looking for a quicker way. This implies, to me at least, that those additional 16 years sucked. Especially the last 13 years. In Season 5 we saw what Janeway was like when she was depressed. She regretted the last four years and it took the whole season for her to recover. As a result Chakotay was running around saving everyone else as they too began to fall. By the beginning of season 6 he put the plaque back on the wall and Janeway, along with everyone else gets back in place so to speak. But Chakotay wasn't there to pick her up during those last years. He wasn't the same. Tuvok was getting worse with each passing light year. With the top three, the leading triad of power on the ship slowly slipping away, suddenly Tom, B'Elanna and Harry have much more responsibility than ever before - running the ship and keeping the command trio from falling apart completely. Tom and B'Elanna have a child to raise. B'Elanna is running engineering without Joe and Seven. Jim Wright implied that Harry was probably flying through the ranks in those last years. I can only imagine what Tom saw as the Doc's main medical assistant; he probably witnessed most of those 23 deaths. That can't have been easy...for any of them. Especially losing those 23 people. So 23 dead, Tuvok losing his grip, Chakotay extremely despondent and a Captain more prone to guilt than any Irish Catholic I know (myself included). In "The 37s" Chakotay says he doesn't think they could run the ship with fewer than one hundred people. According to "Workforce," Voyager had 141 people (Seven says something like myself along with 136 others plus the four on the ship = 141). Joe Carey died in "Friendship One" = 140. Take away an additional 23 and that is 117. Somewhere along the line Tuvok is forced to retire so make that 117. Keep in mind that two of those crew are Icheb, who's what? Maybe 18 in season 7 and Naomi Wildman who is all of 5 years old. Which reminds me, add Miral = 118 Now keep in mind that these 16 years were obviously not uneventful. There was at least the Fen Domar when the cup got beat up not to mention a few more run-ins with the Borg. Think of all the repairs, the long hours, the brainpower, the increase in duty shifts, and the emotional exhaustion they must have endured. I'd be tired...weary...and wrinkled too. Unless of course I had an obsession. Something to keep me focused with the full knowledge that Harry won't get that old that quick. That Tom and B'Elanna won't have to raise their daughter in the midst of chaos. That Icheb will go to the Academy not earn a field commission. That Naomi Wildman can finish growing up planet side and attend the Academy instead of getting full training and a commission on the ship she was born on (I'd assume anyway think about it - she'd have been at least 21 when they got home - Harry was 22 when they set out). That Miral won't live the first 16 years of her life on a Starship. That maybe those 23 crewmen won't have to die. That Tuvok won't deteriorate. That Chakotay won't be so depressed and die so early. That Seven will have more than seven years to discover her humanity. So she finds a way - that Borg infested nebula Harry wanted to fly into 26 years ago. She goes back and confronts how things used to be instead of the way things became. She arrives on the transporter pad to see her two dearest friends in their prime. Later we see the three of them joking and working at Tactical while Captain Janeway observes. "It's good to be back." The first scene in the ready room is where we hear the Admiral gave up coffee years ago. My reaction was a whopping, "WHAT?" Kathryn "there's coffee in that nebula" Janeway became a full-fledged tea-drinker? What happened to the best organic suspension ever devised? What is suspending her now? Obsession, plain and simple. But she does take a whiff. Invoking a memory perhaps? Trying to remember a time when she wasn't so jaded? A time when she wouldn't have believed that exploration doesn't justify the deaths of millions or just one? Captain Janeway may have said it in grief in "Friendship One," but the Admiral BELIEVES it. Otherwise she wouldn't be here. She sees Seven. She hasn't seen her in about 23 years and it shows. The girl she severed from the hive mind. The girl she sent Tom and Tuvok into an area of space illegally to save and then later followed with Voyager. The girl she followed in to the heart of Borg space and faced down the Borg Queen because she wasn't leaving without her. The girl she battled a group of aliens that cured the Phage in order to keep her on Voyager. The girl she talked out of running away and convinced to trust once more. The girl she flew into a Borg debris field to get a cortical node because of the remote possibility it would save her life. The girl she made an individual, the one she gave new life to. And it was a good life but a mere seven years when an away mission ripped it all away. I was not surprised that Kathryn Janeway would move the heavens and the earth for Seven. But Captain Janeway knows better. Well at least knowing pieces of the future she can be more careful. But wait there's more, Captain. There's Tuvok. The only way to save him is to go home now. Ouch. But his logic has not left him yet. In response to what about your life? "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few." And the Captain smirks slightly, and perhaps a bit proudly. Or as Seven put it, "My future is insignificant to the lives we'd be saving." The Admiral is not pleased or proud but tells Seven she is selfish and not considering the people who love her, her tone screaming 'think of me, damn it, think of Chakotay.' We see the meeting in the briefing room. We see the Captain lay down the risks while Admiral Janeway observes. An uneasy B'Elanna rubs her belly as Tom looks on. Everyone looks more than pensive. Harry is standing a bit off. The Captain finishes with a dangerous statement, "we won't do this unless everyone in this room agrees." And Harry moves to speak as everyone gives him a look. But he surprises all of them, some of us too I imagine. He doesn't object but gives an encouraging speech that Tom follows with a toast all too familiar to the Admiral... "To the journey." And suddenly, here in this place that isn't hers anymore, watching this group of people she loves more than anything (all with coffee cups in their hands by the way) young, alive, and thriving, those words mean something once more. In her obsession to complete the journey, she forgot what the journey had meant to them then. When they were all young, when the future had endless possibilities, when they believed they could do anything, and knowing if they were going to do it together they would succeed. The friendship, the love, the loyalty - THE FAMILY they became. And that is what it was all about. "Coffee, black." When she said this line I knew everything would be okay. The captain was already sitting in her favorite spot in the mess hall, having a cup of coffee - she comes up with some good ideas here. And the Admiral joins her for a cup of the best organic suspension ever devised. None of us know why she ever gave it up. It should have gotten her through the worst of the past 23 years but maybe they can beat the Borg with it one more time. Sure enough, they did. Did she do it for the right reasons? For herself, for the people she wanted to save she had the best of intentions. What is the line? The path to hell is paved with good intentions? That's where the Admiral went isn't it? Kathryn Janeway's version of hell, straight to the Borg nest, to be assimilated, and however briefly enter that which she saved Seven from. I find myself remembering something Chakotay said to a pre-Delta Quadrant Kathryn Janeway in "Shattered:" "In the middle of the journey of our life I found myself astray in a dark wood where the straight road had been lost." A quote from Dante's Inferno. Hm. So I looked up the last section of the Divine Comedy. Here's what I found. From Paradiso: O how all speech is feeble and falls short Of my conceit, and this to what I saw Is such, 'tis not enough to call it little! The Admiral saw those she knew speaking before her, realized how wrong she to take what they had away from them. It wasn't hers to take anymore. O Light Eterne, sole in thyself that dwellest, Sole knowest thyself, and, known unto thyself And knowing, lovest and smilest on thyself! "I don't know why I ever gave this up." That circulation, which being thus conceived Appeared in thee as a reflected light, When somewhat contemplated by mine eyes, "Are you sure you want to do this?" "No...but this ship isn't big enough for the both of us." Within itself, of its own very colour Seemed to me painted with our effigy, Wherefore my sight was all absorbed therein. "I'm glad I got to know you again." As the geometrician, who endeavours To square the circle, and discovers not. By taking thought, the principle he wants, "I always assumed it was a one way trip." Even such was I at that new apparition; I wished to see how the image to the circle Conformed itself, and how it there finds place; "I forgot how much they loved begin together. And how loyal they were to you." But my own wings were not enough for this, Had it not been that then my mind there smote A flash of lightning, wherein came its wish. "It's taken me a few days to realize it...this is your ship, your crew--not mine. I was wrong to lie to you. To think I could talk you out of something you'd set your mind to." "You were only trying to do what you thought was right for all of us." "Well, you've changed my mind about that. And I'd like to help you carry out your mission. Maybe together we can increase our odds." "Maybe we can do more than that. There's got to be a way to have our cake and eat it too." Here vigour failed the lofty fantasy: But now was turning my desire and will, Even as a wheel that equally is moved, "We can't destroy the hub and get Voyager home." "Are you absolutely sure about that?" "There might be a way. I considered it once, but it seemed...too risky." "That was before you decided to revive your old habits." The Love which moves the sun and the other stars. "I don't know why I ever gave this up." Her love for her crew. She would move the sun, the stars, and even time itself. It was her passion all along. "Thank you, Admiral Janeway." It was sudden, an unexpected turn of events. They discover a nebula that may contain hundreds of wormhole. The odds of one leading to the Alpha Quadrant should be pretty high. But the Borg abound. Their hopes are dashed. They shun the idea of re-entering the Borg infested nebula just for the remote possibility of getting home. Their hopes are dashed. Suddenly days later they do re-enter it, equipped with technology that will protect them from the Borg only to discover the transwarp hub. The Captain orders them out. Their hopes are dashed yet again. The Captain orders a way to destroy it. The crew agrees, unanimously, that the hub should be destroyed at all costs. They have a way to do it, but no way home. There is no hope now. The Admiral has a cup of coffee with the Captain in the mess hall. Two Janeways + coffee + a late night in the mess hall = trouble for whomever she is up against. Hope returns. There is a way. It just has to work. The Admiral stalls for time, keeping the Borg Queen distracted as long as possible. Knowing assimilation is the likely fate, Kathryn "the second page of that book says we need a back up plan" Janeway has already prepared the ultimate distraction...and destruction. The Borg Queen falls to her knees before Janeway. The Borg Queen is dead, long live Janeway. But for the moment Janeway's long life is questionable. Captain Janeway and company are in those last moments: blowing up the hub, fighting to prevent being crushed like a bug AND fighting off annihilation by the cube that just won't die. But as we all know Kathryn Janeway doesn't go down easily. She has a choice: take the detour back where they came from or take the fight within. She goes within. The thing is she didn't know where the cube would go once it had them. Having no directions to do otherwise the cube stayed on its course to the Alpha Quadrant. "Thank you, Admiral Janeway." Voyager comes out firing in a blaze of glory...to see a fleet of Starfleet ships. "We did it." That said it all. I have told many people that had this aired on cable the line should have been, "holy s$@#." Or at least that was the impression I got. That sequence of events was so sudden, so sporatic, so shocking to them that any other emotion BUT shock would have been exaggerated and over the top. But Miral's birth however was the perfect touch. "Here begins a new life." "Its amazing to think that there is a piece of you life you know nothing about." "It sounds an awful lot like the future." "Any predictions?" That is for us. They gave us that much. No ruined reunions. No ignoring someone, no over attention to others. It is a future imperfect, but it is ours to mess with. It always has been. I agree, D'A. The ending was flawed. Fortunately, some can rationalize the writer's mistakes as virtues. But the writers' imaginations seem rather limited to me. Leaving emotional resolutions for fanfic writers or to some future Trek fiction relaunch or to people's imaginations is nothing but a lame excuse. For me, Voyager is what's seen on-screen. And now, the Voyager story is over. I am glad that they didn't mess things up. But I'm not going to praise them for doing that by failing to try. Very agreed, Terry. You put that all very well. Thank you. Mr Mac!!! Ectopic Endgame thread ALERT!!! Please add this thread/especially Janey's post to your endgame thread when you archive. Janey, you are MORE than a simple "minion"! D47 I'm SO there! I don't mind if others want to construct elaborate rationales. More power to them. But leaving so many threads hanging that the audience is forced to do that in order to justify and complete the story is poor work on the writers' part. MEG Wow Janey! I just love your analysis of Janeways motivation. That was the highlight of the ep for me. Watching the older, more cynical Janeway rediscovering her idealism from the younger and the younger realising that idealism that costs the most treasured members of you family can be too much. The family motif was fully rounded in this ep. The crew fully realising what a close family they had become and that Voyger was no longer just a ship but a home. The people Janeway stood to loose were those closest to her. Seven her adopted daughter, Chakotay the man who probably would have been hers if the situation was different and Tuvok her older brother and counsellor. One of the greatest Mulgrew moments is where the young Janeway learns that Seven and Chak get together. That look conveys soooo much. Suprise (the man who has shared tender, even flirty moments with you over the last 7 years runs off with your daughter!!!! eeeewww! waaah!) and the realisation that even if they could get home the posibility of something occurring between them once they are no longer in a command situation together has all but evaporated. I agree that the Miral birth scene was symbolic. The obvious new life/family theme was there. The baby emerged from the womb as Voyager emerged from the conduit into the Alpha quad. In a sense both had been developing and gestating in isolation, in the Delta quadrant. The baby was produced from the fusion of two separate genetic parts from two races biologically different from each other. In someways even not totally compatable with each other either! Voyagers crew was concieved of two opposed philosophies, Federation and Maquis. Both "babies" needed a helping hand along the way and had their share of adversity. The helping hand in both instances had ethical issues. The genetic modification issue with Miral and the bending to the nth degree of the Temporal Prime Directive for Voyager. Did the ends justify the means is the question posed by both. Issues like that will keep THIS nebula family together discussing them again and again! Tim PS: Why didn't I think of this in our post ep discussion instead of the brainless drivel I actually said! Tim I have a problem with some of your reasoning, Janey You said: So why now? Simply it was there. It couldn't have been earlier because there is one thing she wasn't willing to give up - her crew. The very people she is going back to save. The only other feasible time to go back to would have been the array. But had she gone back then...Tom and B'Elanna never married and had Miral (a key player in this little trip of hers), Neelix wouldn't have met with Dexa and Brax, Seven never would have been severed from the Collective, Icheb never saved, The Doc tossed into mines with the other Mark Ones, The Borg Resistance never would have occurred, Kes never would have left the confines of Ocampa (because I really don't think KJ would have dragged those two across the galaxy) and most importantly one third of the crew she went back to save would be thrown in prison. That isn't the future KJ had in mind. I think I would much prefer to believe that the reason Admiral Janeway went back to get Voyager home early at the exact point she did was because the journey was impossible earlier; because they needed the exact combination of circumstances of Voyager's tech level (acquired from the Borg and other species they met along the way), and the Borg transwarp hub (because they never came close enough to one before). Otherwise... you have Janeway deciding to go back at a time that has Neelix happily settled on a Talaxian colony, Tom and B'Elanna married, Seven and Icheb saved from the Borg... and deciding that these factors outweigh the crewmembers who have already died along the way. And that she'd play favourites in quite that way leaves me kind of uncomfortable. True, it's impossible to save everybody. If she'd gone back in time and got Voyager to turn around before they got pulled into the Delta Quadrant, the Maquis members of her crew would have been lost, stranded there because the Caretaker was already pretty much beyond the point of sending people back, and was still looking for someone to pair up with B'Elanna and send to the Ocampans. If you'd done it after they arrived at the array, a good part of Voyager's crew (and presumably the Ocampan ship as well) died in the process of being pulled there. Not to mention that according to the Roll Call site (currently up to "Workforce: 2"), at least 36 people died in those first seven years that Janeway didn't manage to come back and create an alternate future for. As for the final moment of the show... I think I'd really have hated to see a montage of reunion vignettes. I just don't trust TPTB in charge enough to put a series of scenes with that much potential for sacharine in their hands. The reunion party of the new timeline that D'Alaire suggested would be a better option, but I still don't like it overmuch. It's probably irrelevant, since the next show is going back in time rather than forward, but I don't like to have my future possibilities so locked in stone for the benefit of a few extra seconds. And let's face it, whatever fate they'd chosen for the characters in that new future would have been bound to infuriate some of us. But a lot more of us are likely to have an emotional investment in seeing them come home than in practically anything they might do afterwards, so showing that seemed to be a required scene in the way the other wasn't. Closure for me was the end of the journey, not what happened after it. But then I tend to like my endings dramatic and clean, without too much pussyfooting around dotting the i's and crossing the t's after the climax to dilute their impact. And I can't think of any way that they could have come up with a satisfying coda that would have played fair to all of the main crew, so I'm happiest that they didn't attempt it at all. Jules It's the professinal writers's job (any kind of writer, whether it's fiction, non-fiction, screenplays, teleplays, novels, etc.) to tie up the loose ends told during the story. It doesn't have to be simple black-and-white; stories can end ambiguously, leave the audience thinking...but that's QUITE different from leaving them hanging. I once read an article in the NY TIMES BOOK REVIEW, years ago (okay, I know I'm always quoting the TIMES, but it's my favorite paper:-) ) about the proliferation of novelizations of movies...the writer used the STAR WARS films as examples, and in his opinion it was because the SW films were simply skimming the surface...outlines, as they were. He wasn't talking about the plot, he was talking about the characterizations of Luke, Han, Leia, et.al.; in other words, the characters were "types," without any real flesh to them. Luke is the untested farmboy with big dreasm, Leia is the beautiful princess, Han is the daredevil adventurer, Chewbacca the loyal sidekick, Darth Vader the villain with a black hat (literally.) Since they were only types, the audience was left to fill in their backstories...like pencil drawings, they need to be inked to gain any sense of depth. I agreed with him then, and I agree with him now. Of all the ST series, only DS9 continually and fully explored the characters' depths. TOS did in the first year and a 1/2, but by the latter half of the three years, the writers had gotten lazy and were just churning pages out. TNG got better at it as the years went by (especially with Picard and Worf), but most of the others remained, if not blank slates, incomplete sentences. The one thing I found most annoying about VOYAGER was the inability of the writers to "dig deeper." Oh, you can say they "explored" Seven to the detriment of other characters, but even with Seven they basically only told the same basic story over and over. And they did that with almost all the characters...or, if there was a major jump forward, it seemed to come out of nowhere, with no or very few hints of what was to come. In other words, it was character exploration by convenience. (B'lanna and Tom being the notable exceptions.) It's odd, but of all the characters on VOYAGER, imho Ethan Phillips's Neelix was actually the most fully realized. Even more than Mulgrew's Janeway. This was because of the actor, certainly not the writers. In fact, for the most part, thank G-d for the talents of the actors, especially Mulgrew, Phillips, Dawson, McNeill and Picardo. They were the ones who helped fill in the holes in the scripts and gave us SOMETHING. But too often I have watched VOYAGER and said at the end, good show, but if they had just had whoever say or do this or that, especially at the end (a coda, so to speak), it could have been great. As I've said before, all Admiral Paris had to say was, "Hello, son." And all Tom had to say was, "Hello, dad." I guarantee it would have made the ending ten times more satisfying to all of us. Mindy OOPS! I meant to say "B'lanna and Tom were the notable EXAMPLES, not exceptions." (nim) Superb analysis, Janey, and I agree with Tim about Miral. NIM That was my understanding, too, Jules I think Janey was emphasizing the merits of having been in the DQ for seven years for the members of the crew, who got to bloom during those years in unexpected ways. Of course, Adm J's decision to come back to the past was emotionally driven...But I do really think that there was a strategic rather than an emotional core in Adm Janeway's decision to come to THAT particular moment in the journey for a bit of revisionist thinking...probably the Borg Hub was the single most effective way to get Voyager home, and what she kept pondering over as a terrible missed opportunity all those years afterwards. david g Why I dont fully agree, Terry I think Biller is an honorable guy. I think he DID try to imagine the VOY future, but made the decision to put those imagined futures at the start of the episode. He wanted to do something "unpredictable," as he repeatedly said. I guess for him not having the ending being about a homecoming was the "predictable" path...I wanted more hugs and tender reuinons I could weep over, myself, and Im not sure I would have done it this way, but in the end I can respect his decision to do it this way...the VOY series has been more about finding a way back home than it has been about imagining life BEYOND that achieved goal. O well, Terry, maybe Im still just rationalizing! david g I guess their shared hesitant but earnest glances at each other were just as real for me, Mindy The way Adm Paris struggles to mainatin his Federation discipline and steal a glance at his son, the way Tom looked up but then down refletingly...I dont know, I found that moving, myself. Austere, perhaps, but moving. david g It wasn't just... ...Biller's decision, David. There were two other PTB and a director in it. Can you say "Groupthink?" Austere seems very much right for the Paris clan Admiral Paris is Starfleet to the core. From his few appearances on the show it's pretty clear that he cares very much about his missing son, but he doesn't wear his emotions on his sleeve in public, particularly when he's on duty. And Tom got brought up under that philosophy for so long that even if he's broken away from it a little and become his own man and his own kind of Starfleet officer, the more casual conversational Tom is something that he undoubtedly reserves for the privacy of his own captain's bridge. And only then when he has a captain like Janeway who gives him free rein to do it. Somehow I can't see either of these two men, who do after all have a history of miscommunication with each other, getting all emotional at their reunion with half the fleet listening in. That'll wait for a private moment at a later date, and even then I wouldn't be at all surprised to see them edging around each other like a couple of wary cats for days beforehand. Jules Precisely why i think the finale worked so well, D'Alaire I think you and I are generally on the same page about the finale, but part company about the ending. You know, when I saw the ep the first time, I, too, wanted more from the ending...but more and more it seemed to me that the ending was true to the series and honorable, in its own way. To my mind, this otherwise very fine season has been marred by a lack of the driven and compelling Janeway of the Braga days. I think the Janeway we got in EG was a perfect marriage btwn both the Braga and Biller views of the character. Maybe Im just trying to have MY cake and eat it, to, D'Alaire. Im not trying to convice you that Im right, and I do understand where youre coming from. Im just trying to say that i think there IS a case to be made for the ending as justifiable and not a cynical slap-in-the-face. david g Im surprised that no one has mentioned this, but EG also solved one of the nagging mysteries of late The Borg have indeed been letting Voyager "go." The BQ tells Seven that she has allowed the Voyager crew to escape unharmed because of Seven's fondness for it. This explains a heck of a lot about Voyager ability to elude the Borg over the past few years. ...and also hints that there may be more to the Queen's plan than meets the eye. I just hope theyre not all carrying that Borg assimilo-virus. david g But saying "Hi, son" or "Hello, Tom" isn't exactly... ...getting all emotional and breaking down into tears, guys. I understand what you're saying, Jules, but Tom's relationship with his father has been one of the few undercurrents that was carried throughout the entire series run...so I just think that it would have been better to have that brief dialogue between them as a sort of closure. And david g., that "glance" you are talking about is very hard to see. The casual or undiscerning observer will never see it, and might not even put the 2 + 2 together that will tell them that here is a father and son reunited at last. Mindy Ah, but Mindy, therein lies the burden and the genius of ENDGAME this was one of the FEW VOY eps that non-VOY fans (who are legion, alas) have seen/were going to see. For better or worse, TPTB had to make an ep that would appeal to us as wel as to the many who have no interest in VOY and never watched the show. TPTB were walking a tightrope btwn pleasing loyal fans and satisfying otherwise indifferent viewers. Im not saying this was IDEAL but i do think they were trying to do a lot at once. david g But it would break their "command mode" stance. (NIM) My take. As I have said I liked the ending. It was poinient and as this thread illustrates leaves everyone hungry to see more, teasing them, making them draw their own conclusions as to what happens to the re-united families, to the Maquis "rebels" to the ship etc etc. It works as an end but leaves enough unsaid that we might get another peek at our voyagers in some future movie if the time (and funding) were right. A silent montage of re-unions behind the credits and music would have worked without lots of angsty dialogue. I think lots of heart rending scenes would have descended into mushy over sentimentality and destroyed the pacing of the ep. If you showed Tom/Admiral Paris then you would have had to seen, B'Ellana and her father, Naomi and Sam with their father/husband, Doc & Zimmerman, Seven and her Aunt, Janeway and her (now aged) dog etc etc. There was just not space for it and it would have been unfair to do one and not the others. IMHO opinion the end works pretty well. Tim A slap in the face... ...is the last thing I want to imagine, even if during certain parts of Voyager's run, I might have given it more than a passing thought. (smirk) And I know you're not trying to "sell" me, David--an impossible task as that is, I still wouldn't think that. I'm quite accustomed to changing my heart after a rewatch, too. I do tend to be lenient on many things, in fact, and don't mind a good deal of what some people have argued bitterly about in the past. It's just a small group of particular issues I won't budge about. I guess you can name at least one of those things now. (Guess it figures it's my most despised nit, not only in Trek, but in literature and film, too.) Terry's comments actually work the best for me for that reason. (Aside: Maybe I'm just tired, but I wonder why it keeps going back to Janeway's portrayal in this thread, even if she was a large part of the ep. I utterly adored that part of the ep. It wasn't anything to do with my complaint, and nothing I feel any need to mull over. Ah well. We do agree on that among other things in Endgame, which is well enough in my book. I understand, D'Alaire I admire you for sticking to your guns and not "budging" on a point youre not happy with, and that makes it fun to "argue" with you, because i think you have a balanced but also principled, passionate viewpoint. I have had disagreements the other way, too. Try as I might, impressed by it though I am, I just dont care about WORKFORCE (though the goodbye-to-Jaffen scenes are magnificent). But maybe upon re-view I will care--that is what happened, after all, on the KILLING GAME.... In the past I have gone back hoping to find something and Lo and behold found it! Wishful thinking on my part? Perhaps. Then again, I have gone back to, say, INSIDE MAN, and found nothing to redeem it, as a whole (though i DID like that Harry managed to find a key to the teaser's problem that Seven couldnt...by the way, I know you shared in my enthusiasm for Janeway in EG, sorry if it seemed i was harping on that). Hmmmm...I hope we can keep this up, at the Nebula, for many shows to come....I feel immensely grateful to have people like you and my other friends here to hash it out with! david g Re: But saying "Hi, son".... Mindy, do you recall... the Tom (re)promotion scene last year, when people complained at "how unprofessional" B'Elanna was when she kissed Tom after Janeway placed the pip on his collar? Jules hit the nail on the head for me, regarding how this scene between Tom and Papa did NOT play out. These two "professionals" have had very little exposure to each other in the last 7 years, and are busy keeping up appearences "for the other". I actually appreciated the fact... given TPTB's tendency to avoid the reunion hoopla, that Admiral Paris and Lt Barclay were "On Screen" at the end. Just as Miral signaled "a new life", as david likes to say... these two represent the "Alpha Quadrant" for Voyager. Dad representing the families waiting for loved ones, and Barclay representing the Starfleet that has tried to bring Voyager home these last 3 years. "To the Journey." Sigh. Mindy you simply MUST get to one of those "Kate cons", you won't regret it! D47 Thank you, David. It's the reason why I've stuck around here for almost 3 1/2 years, now, too. And on continuing the utterly useless practice of debating opinions and preferences...We're Trekkers! We'll always find something to haggle about. Thanks, Deb. That means a lot coming from you...:) nim I understand... And I agree with you. The point I was trying to make, and I don't think I did it very well was in fact that the transwarp hub was the only way. I only addressed the issue of going back to Caretaker was because of that very reason of so many being lost after that incident. Here she goes back for 25 people but there were those 36. But had she gone back any earlier they wouldn't be the crew she was trying to save and they wouldn't be ready to go through the process. But she knew exactly where Voyager was in relation to the hub. It could only have been then. david, you are right. for only the THIRD time last night, and the first time "alone". Easier to "concentrate that way", don't you know. This time through, I DID notice the several "eyedropping" looks Admiral Paris gave Tom... (or else he was checking himself out to see if he had to "XYZ" as we said back in grade school. ) I also finally "see" how the Voyager got "into" the sphere... that portal "was" opening as they sped down the transwarp pathway, wasn't it. Think the Borg were just as surprised by her "flying into it" as Admiral Paris was, of her "flying out of it?" This time through... I was also struck by the "quietude" (is that a word?) on the bridge after they emerged from the destroyed sphere. And it made even more sense to me. The initial reaction of people who literally thought they were going to die... and didn't. Shocked... but grateful. Stunned... but still saddened. Because this woman, and this crew who don't like leaving anyone behind... did. They owed their lives, their fortunes, to a woman who spent 33 years devoted to one idea. "To get her people HOME!" "Thank-you Admiral Janeway"... indeed. As strange and unexpected this quietude was for me, I now completely accept it. In fact, last night, I recalled the end of a summer "blockbuster" a few years ago, in which the "joyful noise" at the end rang "false" to my ears. "Armageddon", the Bruce Willis comet disaster movie... ended with the "female" star/love interest running down the tarmac and leaping into the arms of her lover as he swung her around. Then "everyone" walked off arm in arm, smiling, & laughing as rock & roll played. Considering that she had "just" played the scene where she said goodbye to her father, who was sacrificing himself to save Earth... and it clearly distressed her... the "joy" seemed (at the very least) in bad taste. "High fiving" on the bridge of the Voyager", when you know someone literally just gave up her life to save you... sigh... Well... though I expected it the first time through... on the third viewing seemed... "inappropriate". david, you are right. My appreciation for this ep grows with each viewing. Funny. I "expected" to cry the first time... but I don't think I did. But when the Admiral came to say goodbye to Tuvok "last night"... Sniff. ... I definately watered "up". "Seven years ago... I didn't even know her name. Now, I can't imagine Wednesdays without her." Thank you Kathryn. You will be missed. D47 Finally, someone who sees the end as I saw it... It can get lonely around here I wouldn't have minded the alternate resolution of using the dreaded reset button, knowing they would get the fireworks and cheers 16 years later. Intellectually that is But I think the actual resolution was emotionally satisfying, and the ending perfect for the reasons you said. How could they be anything but numb with shock and disbelief!? She will be missed indeed. Thanks, Deb. NIM Exactly correct, Mindy. I sure missed the glance . . . I was reading david's post and thinking "What the hell?" Then again, I've only seen "Endgame" once. David indicates that he's seen it several times, and maybe he's reading something into the scene after having seen it so many times. I can tell you, I will not be watching "Endgame" again. I couldn't bear to watch it again, not with that underdeveloped ending. Like D'A, I'm a major closure person. I'm so much for closure, I'm writing a (short) fanfic series about what happens after they come home, for myself. Because I need to know. 216 Re: I have a problem with some of your reasoning, Janey Jules. that was more or less exactly what I wanted to say - all of it. I thank you. My typing fingers thank you. It may not be much, but the shared glances ARE actually there Im not just reading into the scene in terms of the glances btwn the Parises being there... I may of course be reading into the scene to find the significance in those glances, however... david g Oh, and David... ..., I plucked this out in about twenty minutes several days ago, but edited it a bit tonight while thinking on you. It'll probably get a finer treatment [improvement and detailing] when I have the time and energy, but I thought, what the heck. I might not like to debate about opinions, but I do have my whims. Light Before them, it dims as the images fade away. For a moment, they almost expect it to continue, that the pictures and scenes will roll onto the next they know, defining all the millions of moments that followed. But it doesn't. It doesn't need to. They stand, much as they have stood many times, side by side, perhaps one or two off to the side, at least two close together, all looking to the same point of light, no longer much of anything there and then, yet remaining warm within them. Voyager has always been as vital again when called to mind. There is not one there who cannot recall, instantly, the curve of each corridor, the color of its carpet; the shape of each door and the sound it made as it glided open, revealing a room, which they too could remember. The bed, the dresser; the couch by the wall or in the middle of the room; the decorations, mementos, a pair of boots errantly laid aside, or a tunic they still needed to put away, and sometimes fragrant flowers from the hydroponics bay once kept by an Ocampan, all fall into their minds without much dissention, only personal difference, when they choose to go into that place again | ||
![[The Voyager Crew]](../images/voyager_crew.jpg)
Speculations, speculations... 
Maggie!!!!!
It seems I not only enabled...
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