The Coffee Nebula Board is for the discussion of Star Trek: Voyager and other sci-fi/cult shows. This is its Archive of episode discussions, top ten lists, fan fiction, and other miscellaneous musings.
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"Who would have thought that this eclectic group of voyagers could actually become a family. Starfleet, Maquis, Klingon, Talaxian, hologram, Borg... even Mr Paris." |
EndgameYet one more comment on this Finale I guess what I love about ENDGAME, in the end--what makes me ok with not getting all the homecoming stuff--is that the crew had one last glorious MISSION. there they were, working together to help others and themselves...all of it should feel abrupt because it felt that way to THEM... I really thnk this will be seen as one of the five or six great episodes of the series. david g Agreed, Nina. Nope, I.m pointing out the fatal and inherent flaw to this episode. NIM NIM All very true, but... ...there you go again confusing the two layers of the question. *I* was merely answering the question why Admiral Janeway went back to the nebula. I was *not* answering the question whether in doing so she made the right decision. As a matter of fact, I more or less agree with you on that second question. She was wrong in changing history so drastically, for her - or her "family's" - own gain. But to be able to answer that question seriously, I'd have to see the ep first. Oh, and that last line, about the time loop - that's a little negative thinking about the finale, isn't it? Ivy More interaction! I know exactly how you feel! I wanted to see some response--both from the BOYAGER crew and those in the Federation--to their return. I couldn't believe they left the return for literally the last shot. Apart from that and the C/7 rush, I liked it, though. Sherry Re: And a question for Ivy I'm not going to start a lecture on philosophy here (just finished my finals in philosophy) but I can tell you a little something. I don't know how much you already know so I'm just gonna give it from ground level up. Wittgenstein was, in his early period (also called Wittgenstein I), considered a member of the "Wiener Kreis", a group of empiricists who lived in early 20th-century Vienna. They were the ones who caused the so-called "linguistic turn" in the 20th-century analytical philosophy. They said that all misunderstandings (and metaphysical problems, but that's beside the point here) could be retraced to wrong use of language. Therefore, all problems can be solved through a thourough analysis of language. (This is also where Wittgenstein makes the distinction between that of which one can speak (everything that can be expressed in language, every scientifical fact etc) and that, of which one cannot speak (for instance all ideological matters), and where he comes to his final and famous conclusion "Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muß man schweigen" (tractatus logico-philosophicus, proposition 7)) So basically, that's what I did; I analysed the language and found that there were actually two distinct questions instead of one. That's what I mean by "going Wittgenstein on this one". Ivy PS If you didn't get any of this, I won't blame you... it's difficult enough to say this stuff in Dutch, let alone to express all this in English, so it's probably a mess and very unclear... ah well, I tried Re: Janeway's reasons I also think Janeway has more reasons than saving Seven. The first 22 reasons spring to mind--she was weighing the chance to save all those lives against losing them. Keeping crew members alive was the first reason. Getting the surviving crew members home earlier was the second reason. This included giving Tuvok a chance for treatment of his illness. We saw vividly how he would suffer if they did not get home earlier, but not how it would help him if they did. This may have been the single happy result I missed most. In other words, I don't think Seven or the Chakotay/Seven romance were intended to be Janeway's only reason, but her other reasons got too little notice in the final treatment. I wonder if that got lost because they had to cut some time. I'd argue with it as a creative decision, but not as a bad intention. Sherry Re: I have I prefer to think that Adm. J's motives included all 22 people she lost from year 7 through 23, Tuvok's mental degeneration, Seven's death, and the added pain and suffering to the entire crew, including Chak, of those 16 years. I see it the same way, maggie, and I think that's how it was intended. Why else would this episode have created and devoted so much attention to Tuvok's illness? I was irritated that we didn't see any resolution of this medical plotline by their earlier return, but I think it was intended to show another aspect of Janeway's reason--her concern for her surviving crew members as well as the 22 killed. Sherry Well, I tink you'll ave to elaborate, then! It definitely seems that the Captain Janeway-Tuvok Spock quote scene was cut, alas. NIM It's time to give them a rest You say it very well, Jason: the definite general sense of Borg exhaustion. Voyager has gone to that Borg well so often that I think Trek has done about enough with them for a while. The new series is designed to be set in a pre-Borg-contact era, so we should (hopefully) get that relief. Was there even any question she was wrong? That's part of what made the ep so interesting! The two Janeways, an interesting twist on the Faces/Enemy Within/Second Chances conflict, give us a lot to think about. It's the "why she went back" question that makes or breaks the ep for me. And I don't just mean ethically but in terms of potential insult to my intelligence and enjoyment as a longtime Voyager viewer. Thanks for the succinct account, Ivy! Re: Carey and Golden. I haven't read much of Diane Carey's work, but I have read Fire Ship. And while it was a very funny, very well plotted book, what bothered me was that it wasn't my Janeway I was reading. The Janeway in the book was some other character, maybe Carey herself. And the trite ending got under my skin a little too. As for Christie Golden, j'adore her work. Her characters are real, three-dimensional, and they talk, act, and think like they do on the show -- and that's enough for me. I do have to wonder who her recurring character Lyssa Campbell is based on . . . 216 Janeway, what did you think of EQUINOX? I thought Carey's EQUINOX novelization was great...and it did seem to me that she'd captured Janeway in that one...Ive heard from other people similar reactions to FIRE SHIP. david g The ending in Canada was worse because of the timing of the broadcast. They cut out all of the Enterprise promos so the final scene of Endgame end at 9:50pm. We all expected a short epilogue or tag. Instead, after the commerical break, we got the closing credits. Followed by more commercials. Actually, no, maggie, he started with genocide. As he told it to Chakotay, he developed the time-ship to return the Krenim Empire to greatness. His first act was to wipe out their biggest rival. Which act ironically lead to the destruction of most of the Krenim by a plague. Including his own wife. To me, that has always been the worst mistake the writers made with Year of Hell (after the mother of all reset buttons, of course). They were trying to make Annorax a tragic figure but his actual history didn't fit the pattern of a good man who slipped into evil despite good intentions. Captain Nemo, IIRC (and it's been a looong time), was a originally a man of peace. And his later violence was not only an attempt to revenge his wife but to stop nations from making war. Annorax started out as no more than a vicious chauvinist and ended out as a selfish bastard. He even stopped caring about his original goal of making the Krenim great again unless his wife was also restored. Re: The ending in Canada was worse the same thing happened in Pittsburgh, Voyager and fleet heading for Earth, commercials, credits, commercials, start of a voyager rerun and then a long anguished scream. Everyone but Janeway was aged too much. Harry looked way too old. I believe that he was only about 52 but he looked 10-20 years older. And that's by modern standards. When I first saw the white-haired Admiral Janeway, my first thought was "Face-lift(s)!". All of the rest of the cast (except Doc) had sagging skin, jowls, crows-feet, and wrinkles. Janeway's face - completely unlined. Totally unfair. It certainly didn't impress me as the face of someone haunted by the loss of those close to her and drive to change her failures. So, Terry, what did you think of ENDGAME? God, Im feeling like a little kid over here! david g No, the BQ ordered the sphere to destroy Voyager. The Queen was dying but told Admiral Janeway that the destruction of Voyager would erase all of her and all of her temporal interference. And keep the Queen herself from being killed here. david, I'll accept that Voyager was within the sphere in an attempt to destroy it. (Although, I had the impression when viewing that it was behind it. And it sure was poorly shot.) But the question remains, how the freak did they get in there? The Borg sure didn't open the door and invite them in. Rad? Picard was a whole lot older in "All Good Things..." (NIM) BUT A **MAN**. Many popular action hero male actors are getting up there in age. And Sean Connery has the image of an older man, but is accepted as being very vital. When WAS the last time this portrayl was true of a woman that age? Jason I thought the "older" Dawson looked very good. (NIM) Pretty good episode. Better than I expected. For me, the best part of the show was Admiral Janeway and especially the two Janeways interacting with each other. (Although it was too obvious that Admiral Janeway was lying to the BQ in the final scenes.) I liked her gibe to the Doc about "marriage being for the very young, like your wife". I also loved how Tom Paris's journey was ended by his finding contentment with his family and putting his piloting and his hologames in proper perspective. "I am home." The frat boy finally grew up. ["When I was a child, I spake as a child. I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things."] He and B'Elanna were great and I loved the false labor scenes. "Report to sickbay immediately." "What about B'Elanna?" "Bring her, too." Alice Krige was good as the BQ but too underused. And I feel Susanna York was just as good in that role. The C/7 stuff didn't work for me. First, it came out of left field. Second, it was just too sappy. I was wincing or laughing when during the scenes between those two. And third, I felt it received too much airtime that would have been better suited for more important issues. Also, I feel that the logic of the story falls apart when you think about it afterwards. During the show when I didn't know what Admiral Janeway is up to, it was great. But when I learned what she was up to and why, I didn't care for the answers. As other people have already questioned, why did Admiral Janeway do it? Just for Seven, Chakotay, and Tuvok? Or the other 22? Frankly, getting home with only 22 more deaths sounds like a great success. And really, she did it only for Tuvok's sanity. Once she told Seven about her death on the away mission, Seven and Chakotay were saved. So why didn't she just come back with the medical cure for Tuvok instead of all that anti-Borg weaponry? And what if Seven died in three years in the AQ? And finally, I told you so! Frankly, I was hoping that I would be wrong. And I never seriously believed that the baby would be born so late. Actually, the writers exceeded even my expectations of their YAATE. Tim was even closer when he added the defeat of the Borg to the birth and the return home to the last five minutes. The ending needed just a bit of an emotional "tag". It seemed to stop just a bit abruptly. One of the most memorable scenes in TNG was Picard's joining the poker game at the end in All Good Things... "I should have done this years ago." Agreed. (GI) I've been reeling over at another board along with many others. Thinking about 16 less years of stress (and Doc It still needs some retouching here and there, and it's just T&B for now (I plan to put together something a little more comeplete later), but it's a start. [image was here] I think B'Elanna looked lovely, of course. But you're right, Terry. In comparison to Janeway and all her stresses--and especially after watching it again--I thought they weathered the others a bit much. Plus, if Janeway took VOYAGER into the Sphere.... ...(having seen the rerun, I do remember the Sphere opening it's hull in order to "swallow" up Voager), then why, when the crew fired the "transphasic photon torpedo," wasn't Voyager blown up along with the Sphere, since it was INSIDE the d#mn thing? I just don't see how Janeway took Voyager BEHIND the sphere. Just don't get it at all. And I still wish that SOMEONE, other than Janeway, had said SOMETHING on that brige when they came out of the conduit and were facing 18 ships from Starfleet.... ...even it had been something as dumb as: (whispered): toto, something tells me we're not in the Delta Quadrant any more. I just can't away from feeling that something MORE was needed there in terms of dialogue. Mindy I see your point. I was thinking in only the narrow universe of Trek. The aging makeup didn't help matters either. He looked older than Janeway. Actually, Janeway 216, I agree with you about "Fire Ship." I enjoyed it thoroughly. BUT, in order to do that I had to accept early on that Carey wasn't writing about the character created by Kate Mulgrew. Since Carey kindly called her "Kay" through much of the book (for reasons you know, and those who haven't read it need to find out on their own!), that wasn't as hard as one might think. Yet I can understand why other readers reacted with disappointment, or outright anger. The book had a good SF plot, but Janeway? In name only. The thing is, in her Voyager novelizations (particularly in "Equinox") she writes KM's Janeway, IMO, and does it well. Unfortunately those who've read "Fire Ship" tend to stop right there as far as Carey and Voyager are concerned...and I can't blame them. Now I hope to heaven "Endgame" is like "Equinox" instead of "Fire Ship"! Maybe the Borg realised..... ...that with transphasic torpedos it could rip through the tiny fleet massed against it and assimilate earth. If they were dying along with their queen they would logically assimilate the heart of the Federation. With no earth to return to Voyagers homecoming would have been a hollow gesture. Far more cruel and despicable than merely killing them. I surmise that they intended to close the transwarp conduit with voyager inside. Voyager would know the Federation was doomedand be left stranded in the middle of nowhere. Evil huh! Tim Really? It was in the version that I saw! NIM A few C/7 thoughts. I've been chewing on this from time to time over the weekend (while immersed in a project), and since I can't quite figure out where to post it and stay within this thread - here goes. I happened to play over the promo for the last three episodes, that I downloaded weeks ago - I was thinking about deleting the file as I was doing some disk clean-up. I was fascinated to notice that in what turned out to be a clip from the "fourth date" in Chakotay's quarters, HE seems to be grabbing HER for that infamous kiss! Do you suppose they shot it several ways, and the version that wound up in the final cut was not the one in the promo? It sure looks that way to me, which is - interesting. Someone's pointed out (Maggie, perhaps?) that JR's body language when approached romantically by RB amounts to, "physically repulsed." Hmmm. When I went back and watched "Endgame" again, I thought that might be the case. Beltran's not acting all that differently than he did with Mulgrew in "Resolutions," but it's not WORKING. A defense of his acting (or a condemnation of Ryan's)? No. Just an observation. Another thing I noticed the first time around, and believe I confirmed the second, is RB looking as if he didn't know how to respond to those flowers. He reminded me of a guy at my office when the man's wife send him a bouquet as a gift...he wanted to be pleased, but he felt silly. "This is backwards; I should be giving her flowers, not the other way around" is how it came across. Normal behavior for a twentieth-century guy - but Chak's supposed to be 24th Century, yes? Finally! (For anyone who's still with me. There, I'm done. Had to get all that off my chest. Re: "that maybe".... Lurker said... "Janeway's concern for saving Seven comes not from some unexplained/undeveloped fanfic writers dream of J/7 but only from Janeway's established caring for Chak? Maybe she is being noble, and wanting for him what makes him happy, regardless of her own feelings..." As I suggested yesterday, I think the woman who believes a captain should "never" leave a crewman behind... was torn by not just "the numbers"... 22 more dead after they unknowingly bypass a possible way home, she was torn by the actuality of the loss. Her "friend"/foster daughter losing her life in the DQ. Her First Officer, losing his heart/spirit, in the DQ. Her best friend... losing his mind in the DQ. If it was "just" the loss of Seven's life... she probably could have buried her guilt into the "good of the many" argument... But after Seven's death, she had to watch "her" (former?) love deteriorate over many years... Knowing there was "nothing" she could do to lift this burden. Just like she had to watch her friend, in the middle of Vulcan middle age, degenerate into a type of Vulcan Alzheimer's that prevents him from even recognizing her when she comes to see him on the "wrong" day. We saw how her "guilt" over her decisions affected her in season 5. Is it so amazing, to think she would not move heaven and hell to save Tuvok, and Chakotay, and Seven... and all those others that died under her command? She started this mission 7 years ago, to save Tuvok. What a cruel injustice, for the Gods to leave him "alive"... half a man... to mock her in her failure. Was she "Annorax"? A good question, and yet I would say "no". She did not plan any "genocide".. in fact she (the Admiral) tried to limit the Captain's plan to prevent any other tampering with the timeline. She just forgot "how stubborn" her former self really was. Should she have gone "all the way back" and prevented the Caretaker Array destruction? Yeah... like the Admiral was going to have "any" luck convincing a Janeway who'd been in the DQ for 3 days that this was a "bad" idea! Should she have kept The Captain from ever leaving DS9? Then she would have sacrificed not only "Seven" to a Borg existance, but also Tuvok and Chakotay to the DQ for a lifetime. No, I feel Janeway... the woman who promised herself to "get my people home" in Deadlocked, couldn't live with the hollow "victory" that left so many good people dead or destroyed. "Wipe out little Sabrina?" Yes, unfortunately. Just like all the people Harry wiped out in "Timeless". It WAS arrogant of the Admiral to do this... just as it was arrogant for Harry and Chakotay to do it... and I suspect "that's" why its against the prime directive. Because... when its "your" ox getting gored... people tend to forget the "big" picture... and focus only on their own little piece of the pie. Was the "admiral" right or wrong? Thats fodder for the discussion boards. But... if I may suggest... "Captain Janeway's" decision to ignore the quick way home, and instead use this technological windfall to strike at her (and the AQ's) greatest enemy... goes a long way towards granting the Admiral absolution for her crime of breaking the Temporal Prime Directive. D47 Re: Pilot Tom... Shadda, why do you think he's "no longer a pilot" in this "future"? Can't he be like "Geordie" in "All Good Things"... and just have retired in his 50's to write holonovels? Heck, that's what "I'd" like to do. "One" career isn't enough for some people, no matter "how" exciting it is. D47 when you have to chase down your "starfleet" mother who's stolen the car for an unauthorized joyride around town? Fatigued? Or exasperated? Especially when he KNOWS he can't get "holier than thou" on her a$$ because she's only doing what HE did many years before.
D47 I DO so enjoy the Susanna Thompson version too... but Krieg's seductive Queen is so.. so.. so.. dripping in "ick"... you really want to take a shower after she paws Seven! I don't think the Thompson version would have worked "as well" in this ep. D47 Interesting, Terry. . . . . .that you liked the line about marriage being for the young and found it amusing. I had exactly the opposite reaction: for me as a woman over 50 that was one of the most offensive moments in the episode. But then one of my aunts married in her mid-sixties, and another when she was 85. I obviously have a very different perspective than the writers as to when and how people can find happiness, and who is worthy of having that happiness. MEG (Oh, don't mind me. I'm still bummed that now Tim's "Sound of Music" take on Voyager will never come true. Alas! message moved for thread readability - originally in reply to Terry's "Pretty good episode. Better than I expected." Still, he was looking rather beat at the reunion party. Plus (and I know this has been discussed before), I don't think Janeway can quite compare her actions with Harry's in "timeless". For one, Harry inadvertently caused the deaths of his fellow crew members through a simple mistake. Admiral Janeway's lost of two of her crew was tragic, but somewhat unavoidable given Voyager's track record in such a hostile region of space. I finally got around to watching this a second time and noticed the age discrepencies this time There may be a simple explaination. They'd done Mulgrew as an old woman before ("11:59), plus she's been in mini-series and TV movies where she's aged 20 or more years so they had something to work with. For the rest of them the makeup people probably just guessed, and erred by making them all seem a bit too old. Trek makeup artists are great with aliens and injuries, but tend to goof on aging the crews (most "older crew" in TNG and DS9 didn't seem right either). Perhaps they should hire the people who do this type of makeup in movies and mini-series when they need to show characters older. No, I meant, that something was cut FROM it--that it ended a bit abruptly. I wanted more! NIM I love Susannah York, too, esp as Superman's Mom! But my dear Terry youre thining of Susannah Thompson! I love both actresses in the BQ role but the scintillating sexiness of Krige was marvellous here, IMO. david g Actually, Meg, I thought that Adm Janeway was just teasing him! NIM That's exactly what the Borg DID do, Terry. They did "open the door to let Voyager in" by tractoring them INTO the sphere, which Voyager took advantage of. I too was a bit disappointed at the abrupt last five minutes but on re-viewing it seems fiendishly clever to me and much more plausible...but im so gaga over this ep that Im probably not to be trusted! david g Oi, youre probably so sick of this now, Mindy, but Janeway... deliberately told paris to take Voyager inside the sphere, albeit, off camera...She told Tom to follow these coordinates... Then we are in the AQ. The sphee has brought us there. Janeway says to tom, where are we and tom says RIGHT WHERE WE EXPECTED TO BE, ie, IN the sphere. Janeway tells Tuvok to fire, in so many words, and then we DO see a shot from INSIDE the sphere of the torpedo blowing up... and then Voyager triumphantly emerges from all the Borg sphere dust...it's a sequence that demands reviewing, i think! david g Re: the problem with c/7 is that I agree. The C/7 relationship should have started a couple of seasons ago with a gradual building. Instead of the Doctor helping Seven to discover her "humanity" in so many episodes, they could have been written with Chakotay taking the doctor's part... for example the episode "Someone to Watch Over Me". In the series there was understandibly conflict at first between Chakotay and Seven and then at least a working relationship. The series should have developed this into a friendship and then a personal relationship. Torres and Paris relationship was built like this...I wish it had been the same with Chakotay and Seven. Oh, well... But the thing is... the only facial aging make-up that Mulgrew had was the dark make-up around her eyes. They did not add wrinkles nor did they deepened her existing wrinkles. They did not add a jowl, they did not give her incredibly swallow skin, in fact they gave her a rosy complexion. Take away her wig and her face was essential the same as it is in the present. I resented that when compared to the other cast. There is no way Harry would look that old. Recently, on PBS I watched a documentary of Japanese interned during WW II by the US, some fifty years ago. Many intereviewed where adults during their imprisonment. None of the interviewees looked as old or as bad as Harry. Even the seventy-year olds had skin that was healthy and vibrant although wrinkled. And as I have mentioned B'Elanna looked bad, given that Klingon's natural Yes, I realize B'Elanna is half-human, but (i) I don't think there is any accounting for her Klingon heritage and (ii) she looks sickly and did not age well in my eyes for a human. Ive been trying to figure out why I accepted C/7--here are a few reasons Nice analysis as usual Nina... SHATTERED cauterized the wound of J/C for me... there are some barriers they never crossed, i guess, and ive come to (sadly) accept that. Think about this, too--C/7 allowed Seven to NOT detract from janeway's heroism in the finale, a problem in that past. Stuck w/Chakotay, she got something to do besides save the ship. He got something to do, too... Now, as Ive said ad nauseum, though i understand why so many hate Seven, I really like her. So...Im glad that Seven has finally been able to achieve physical and emotional intimacy with someone. And she could do worse than Chakotay. As for Beltran, Im so turned off by him at this point, and so annoyed at his lobbying for Seevn, that I no longer feel Chak deserves Janeway.... anyway, that's my rationalized read...with sadness at the edges. david g Its the coffee!!! That is the clue. The symbol. "I don't know why I ever gave this up." In the beginning at the reunion party Reg Barcley makes the toast, "To the journey." Admiral Janeway had one goal: get the crew home sooner. She knew that there was a way to do it sooner, the nebula 26 years in her past. And when Kathryn Janeway sets her mind to something people should know better than to talk her out of it. She planned her escapade well. It appears she had worked on it for a long time, even calling in favors from Reg, the Doc, Ensign Paris and Captain Harry. She outwits the Klingons. She's equipped with a neural transciever. She willingly takes the one way trip to save Voyager. Reg gives her tea before she leaves. But she sniffs the Captain's cup of java, just a whiff as if invoking a memory. In her pursuit to save her crew that she, as she said, forgot how much they enjoyed being together, how loyal they were to one another, and that they were not her crew. Seven refuses to refute the Captain, even after the Admiral's revelations. Everyone in that ready room is willing to follow Captain Janeway into the jaws of he//, even Harry, the one everyone expected to object. And after Harry's speech about working together we and the Admiral hear Tom make the toast, "to the journey." (with mugs of coffee no less) She is a wise woman. It takes a wise person to learn a lesson or relearn as the case may be. The Admiral does so. She revisits what she was. She goes back to the coffee. She remembers what it was like to be idealistic. She proves an old dog can learn new tricks. And in the end she knows that it is better to go for the greatest good. "I don't know why I ever gave this up." What she accomplishes is far greater than she intended. She reminds herself and her younger self just how far she would go for the crew, how far she'd go for the greater good. She remembers what it was like to really be there, not remembering it in guilt ridden memories and second guessed decisions. And she does get Voyager home earlier. She even squeezes in another lesson for Seven. And on top of it all - she delivers a highly crippling blow to the Borg and defeats the Borg Queen once and for all. It was about revisiting the past. Who she used to be. Who she became. Everything that crew was facing once they landed on that planet. Old habits die hard. Some should remain dead, but there are some that should never die and some that should be revived. The crew has that journey to make now. And I know they'll make it together. Sometimes the greatest journey is going inside yourself, testing your limits and changing (or adapting). "To the journey." Enough of that here's something to ponder for fun... I admit this is wildly speculative but...did anyone else notice the small vessel-like creature shooting out from the Unicomplex when it exploded? It comes from about center screen and shoots to the right. It made me curious...I'm thinking there could be a possible story line... someone may have made it out of there... It was just a joke, MEG. Not the heartfelt confession of Janeway's innermost thoughts. She changed the old line about "love being for the very young" (from an old bad song title?) to insult the Doc and change the discussion away from her personal life to his. Janeway's personal life It would have worked as a 'joke' had we seen evidence that Janeway had some sort of personal life beyond worrying about her lost crew, but they showed no evidence of such. This, combined with the fact that the leading male characters (except Tom) that had wives, had chosen women a good 15 years younger than they are, reinforced all of this century's stereotypes of the fate of older women. Had the show not made such an effort in the early years (and in Taylor's novel) to show that Janeway is accustomed to being in relationships, this would not be an issue. But they seem to have forgotten this aspect of the character. I was sorry to see her end up alone. The family Von Borg Trappe! I guess that Doc could still give singing lessons to those little tatooed Borglets that will be spawned from the union of the Borg spandex godess and the wooden warrior! One exobiology question for everyone, can nanoprobes be passed from mother to her child in the womb? If so we would be looking at the birth of a new borg species! Tim Yes, I know it was supposed to be a joke. But some jokes can be extremely unfunny, and from where I sit this was one of them. That comment from Biller, that Janeway was "too old for Chakotay" was telling on this point, I think. Yeah, it was a joke -- but like the ethnic jokes some people tell, it also reveals a very basic belief in the inferiority and worthlessness of the group that's the butt of the "joke". And in my book the term for that is "ugly", not "funny". MEG Re: Where did Biller say this? And, if so, WHY are we not filling his mailbox with abuse? Mulgrew is YOUNGER than Beltran and if she lies her age, is probably the same age. Besides, she's totally hot. He's catnip too. The average Voyager viewer is 39.9 years old. We should all be offended. Malcom, who is female and 41 years old. LOL! I know what you mean about the "chewing" I've been chewing the idea raised somewhere or other that Adm J. may have intended to commit genocide against the Borg. Anyway, you point out a short scene that I agree actually worked between C and 7. If they had all been that good, we certainly wouldn't have devoted the billions of words to this portion of EG. At least I wouldn't have because I don't particularly oppose C/7 in principle, just in the execution. The problem with that seemingly heartfelt moment of tenderness is that it immediately followed Chak's agressive visegrip on Seven's arm and his threatening vocal manner. I found his demeanor far too physically aggressive. I no longer find male fury followed by romantic overtures sexy or appealing. Amen. Mulgrew is just a tad younger than my "49 later this year." I know because she attended Stella Adler's theater school the year I would have been there if I hadn't changed my mind after getting accepted, and I was "running late" in my post-high school education (while Mulgrew hit NYC at 17). Yup, if Biller said that it was about as funny as...nothing at all. That's what I now think the good admiral meant to achieve, and it's possible she succeeded. The Borg Queen, after all, said with obvious dismay as she realized she was dying - that she'd already infected the Collective. YES!!! You know what did me in on the second viewing? Admiral Janeway offering herself up for deliberate assimilation a second time. KM's performance as that happened, and afterward, was magnificent. I, too, have sworn off the "being physically overcome is romantic" fallacy (phallacy?). So I understand just what you mean about Chak's approach to Seven. He did NOT come on that strong (I mean aggressive!) in "Resolutions," even though I saw many similarities otherwise. Dang, it could have worked. That's why it gripes me. Despite the wonderful SHATTERED, this has been Beltran's worst year, acting-wise. NIM Like she told Harry... She always figured this was a one way trip. D47 Re: A medical cure for Tuvok I don't think that was possible; it's mentioned that the only cure is a mindmeld with a member of his family - that means Janeway should have taken one of Tuvok's family members into the past with her... and since it was pretty obvious that she didn't want anyone else to get involved, that she wanted to do the job on her own, that course of action was not an option. Re: Despite the wonderful SHATTERED, this has been Beltran's worst year, acting-wise. NIM Yes, he does do a good job in Shattered - even the comedic scenes with Chaotica. The exception here is the last line in the turbolift scene where he says she'll 'always have the last word'. I think this was supposed to be a humorous line intended to jibe her a bit, but he delivers it with a serious tone and ruins it. While I agree the writers often failed him and his character, this was a case where he failed the writers. My solution. Why not put him into stasis for the rest of the trip home? (Answers, possible ones: Because Tuvok would insist on continuing to do his job until he became incapable of it, at which point his condition was incurable by any means. Because then he would "lose" whatever time he had left, if the ship didn't make it home after all and he died without ever emerging from stasis, he didn't choose that option. Real answer: because that would mess up a good plot.) Agree except I wasn't sorry to see her alone. After years in relationships, I've been alone for several and I love it!! OTOH, Adm. J's joke about marriage struck me as oddly offensive, with an aunt who remarried at 80, and a neighbor who married for the first time at 65. I wish the infinite variety of life and lifestyles could some day be conveyed on TV, especially on a series that purports to be about the 24th century. I didn't know Haven't read it but I *hated* * 216 Now that I want that quote again. . . . . .I don't suppose I'll ever be able to find it. Seems to me it was about mid-season, or perhaps a bit earlier, and that it was connected to a report from a convention. I can't be sure, but I believe it was someone else (one of the actors or the production staff) commenting on how Biller viewed the relationships of the various characters. The gist of it was that he thought Paris and Torres were the viable relationship on the show, and that he didn't think Janeway and Chakotay would be an interesting relationship because she was too old for him. As to why no one is flooding Mr. Biller's mailbox with complaints, well -- look at the reaction most people had to the line in the show. MEG To my mind, this line, and Mulgrew's marvellously wry delivery of it, showed that Janeway and Doc had really eveolved into friends, to the point where she could tease him affectionately, as friends really comfortable with each other can do. I personally didnt find it at all offensive, and it brings a smile to my face just thinking about what it means for the characters. Plus the Doc IS shallow. david g Re: To my mind, this line, and Mulgrew's marvellously wry delivery of it, In another context, the line would not have been offensive, but in light of the May (women) - December (men) pairings we got, the absence of anyone for Janeway, Seven of Nine getting Janeway's guy in the end despite all the warm, fuzzy moments we've been getting this season between Janeway and Chakotay, and Doc's declaration of his love for 7o9 in the previous episode, I did find it irritating, if not offensive. Like you, David, I'm a big 7o9 fan. I think she's been an excellent foil for the other members of the crew. And I think Ryan has done a terrific job with her, even in the comedic scenes. But it seems that everybody loves 7o9 and no one loves Janeway. In neither scenario did it look as though Janeway lives happily ever after or that men of the future are interested in anyone who is not young and blond-haired. I like to think we'll have progressed some by then. Maybe if we'd seen some guy (she would not even have to reciprocate his feelings) try and talk her out of her plan beause he loves her, this line would not have seemed so bad, because we would have been convinced it was by choice, rather than by circumstances, that she was single. In fact, had we seen such a scene, her motives would have come across as less selfish and more kind-hearted. Instead, as the script was written, we are to believe that Janeway feels guilty about 7o9's death and what it did to Chakotay. As it was acted, it seemed as though Janeway was most upset to find out who 7o9's husband was. Again, either way, Janeway is the odd woman out. This is not how I thought the Hero's Journey was supposed to end. Actually, Neelix got the least screentime. But it was good to see him anyway, albeit briefly. I agree with you about Torres not getting too much time though. Neither she nor Paris were featured for more than a few seconds in the future segments, and the writers' love for babyfic Well, actually, not quite for me. I still have two more episodes to watch that I skipped as a result of jumping the pond for a couple of weeks. Jules I was glad, however, of two moments for P and T I have to admit I thought false labor middle of the night scene was pretty cute... But I loved Tom's line to Harry, " I AM home, Harry," which I find to be incredibly true to his character... I also loved future B'Elanna's line to Adm Janeway about "My beloved captain"...God I wanted more of those two, but that moment was so full of easy, warm love...plus, I personally loved the way future-Torres looked. I also loved the relish that Torres had for the future tech Adm Janeway brought, and that, despite on the verge of labor, she was still commandingly in charge of Engineering. Plus Tom managed to outswerve a huge Borg cube! david g Who should get more screentime I'd have liked to have seen everybody on top form and performing their duties to the best of their abilities for the finale Very well said, Jules! I feel the same way. We should have seen Tom at the helm and B'Elanna in command of the engine room when they returned to the Alpha Quadrant. That's one more reason not to save the birth until the last minute. Sherry One of the things I liked most about the ending... ... was how very open-ended it left things by not going into the details of how the various crewmembers were received when they finally got home: by Starfleet, by Maquis, by their own family members. Everyone here has their own prejudices, and they affect how we view the interaction between various characters and what they do. And basically, everybody aboard Voyager has been in a holding pattern for the last seven years, even those like Tom who call the ship home. There's no saying how well or badly they'll take to life after the return, or how it might affect the relationships and/or friendships that they now have. Maybe Janeway and Chakotay will drift in their own respective directions and never communicate again, except to exchange cards at Christmas. On the other hand, maybe the stresses and strains of the return and the different opportunities in life open to them will break up that embryonic relationship of Chakotay and Seven's and he and Kathryn will get closer than every, with the need for that pesky command distance finally gone. Some of us would clearly prefer one scenario; others the other. It's certainly a gift for the fanfic writers. The sheer magnitude of the adjustments necessary for the characters on their return mean that there's a motivation to move them in pretty much any direction in a post-homecoming story. Make them turn to the character you think they should have been with all along... or break them up with the person you think is wildly wrong for them. (So, Megan Delaney finally notices Harry after all. So if anybody's truly squicked by Chakotay and Seven - and personally I just thought it was an ill-timed plot development, and one that could have done with a little more preamble, rather than one that didn't work - then just write their break up scene! Personally, I wouldn't be surprised to see that one happen anyway. Seven's still at the first love stage; she may want to examine more of the field before she settles down and stops playing. Because she's such a late starter, it makes more sense to me to pair her with someone with the maturity to understand her situation. Did I see Chakotay being overly aggressive? I'd have to see the episode again to ponder that point, but it certainly didn't occur to me on a first viewing. I thought that he was just taking the sort of approach that Seven would be comfortable with; she prefers positive actions that she can understand and react to. I don't think she's entirely got the hang of subtlety yet. Jules I really take your point, but Janeway is totally in line with other great Sci-fi/Hollywood heroines Ripley, so magnificently played by Sigourney Weaver, ends up alone in all of the Alien films, if we mean by "alone" being w/out a romantic partner. Sarah Connor is alone at the end of both TERMINATOR films by the same criteria... Then I think about Hollywood heroines, like Bette Davis in "Now, Voyager, " Vivien Leigh in "GWTW," Olivia de Havilland in "The Heiress"...it's a longstanding Hollywood tradition. Im not taking a stand on it, but my hope is that Adm Janeway managed, if she IS indeed lonely, to give herself more possibilities. david g I liked that line of Tom's too, david As a Tom fan I'd obviously have liked to see more of him in the episode - although I'm shallow enough to want it to have been present day Tom rather than his future self with the quite ludicrous bald cap. But I didn't actually mind that much that he didn't get it, because as far as I'm concerned they did wrap up Tom's story arc (such as it is) with that single sentence. Voyager offered Tom a better life than he'd ever had in the Alpha Quadrant, even when he was the privileged Starfleet golden boy... because it gave him the opportunity to be his own person, to shake the self-destructive urges, and to develop his own skills and interests rather than always be looking over his shoulder trying to please someone else. It gave him a home, a job and a family, and I'm happy that he himself realises that enough to acknowledge it out loud. Tom will undoubtedly do just fine in the Alpha Quadrant after his return, but that's because the self-esteem that he's learned over the past few years is something that he can now carry with him wherever he goes. Home is where he feels comfortable. At the moment that's Voyager, but it'll also be anywhere else he wants it to be. I really didn't need to meet his parents as well, but I was kind of glad to learn that the mysterious Mrs Paris does exist. Jules Here begins a new life, la vita nuova... What Janeway was reading in LATENT IMAGE, and what VOY represents...my hunch is that was what Biller was going for with the baby born in the AQ. david g And look at the reaction around here to J/P. How many have called that a Mother/Son relationship and so it just can't work when Paris clearly was not looking at Janeway in any maternal manner when he was checking her out in Caretaker. Never mind that the age difference between Chakotay and Seven is far greater then between Janeway and Paris. I prefer the song that talks about "love, like youth, is wasted on the young" Actually, Paris and Torres are about the same age, just as Janeway and Chakotay are. I believe that he was simply suggesting that Janeway, at their age, was too old for Chakotay. Something equally as appalling I might add. At 50 I am offended. Shadda There's one other person who may have been lost by not getting home for all those extra years. Janeway herself. She lost her protogee, Seven, and both of her closest friends, Tuvok and Chakotay, and still more of her crew. The Janeway of seasons four and five was pretty shaky mentally, although she seemed to come around in the last couple of years. But who's to say that she mightn't have had a relapse in all the years that followed, still pushing for her obsession to get home? Without Tuvok and Chakotay to balance her, advise her, and point out her priorities for her, getting home alone might not have been enough. The obsession that made her refuse to ever turn aside and take the long way around, however dangerous the alternative, might still have been simmering during those years back in the Alpha Quadrant. Going back to fetch her crew and her younger self might just have been one last short cut. And while it's clear that Voyager's convenient proximity to the whole Borg transwarp corridor thingy is why she chose to go back at the point in time that she did, there were quite likely other times and places that would have served her purposes just as well. Maybe she also had to get back early enough to ensure that her younger self still had her priorities moderately straight and wasn't irredeemably damaged by the journey. Okay, that's enough rationalisation. I was mildly disappointed by the Deus Ex Janeway plot, because I'd much rather that our daring crew had figured out their own way home without any outside help from Q's, evolved Ocampans, or future selves. The thing that saved it for me however was that the younger Janeway didn't just meekly take orders. She showed her true spirit and ingenuity, the crew showed that they were both a close knit family and also heroes worthy of their uniforms, and they worked out a solution that suited everybody. Well, everybody except the Borg. Jules Don't forget about syndication. Once Endgame gets cut in two and has to run an extra set of opening and closing credits, a good bit of that four minutes will get swallowed up by that. I'll be interested to see what duration it runs to when it shows up over here and I can time it on my VCR without ads though... Jules I know what you mean, on both counts As much as I loved Adm Janeway--like Captain janeway but a distinct creation (brava Mulgrew)--part of me wishes the crew had somehow devised a way outta the Borg Hub-problem themselves... o well. I do really like that Capt Janeway takes her own stand and defies Adm Janeway. "Take us OUT!" said to Tom is one of the great Janeway lines, and there's such a mingling of emotions in the Captain's/Mulgrew's reading of that line. david g That's how it affected me, too. For me there was something so RIGHT about that moment. I was very glad to see Tom piloting effectively for a change. I was watching a Voyager marathon in Toronto last week with three other Nebulites. We started talking about how Voyager (the ship) rarely shows any of its supposed agility and how Tom's maneuvers are almost always ineffective. Each time that night that Janeway or Chakotay called out, "Evasive maneuvers!", we'd all burst out laughing. In each case, the ship was hit by weapons fire within five seconds. It was great to see Tom piloting the ship away from danger for a change. Re: a new life, Great point, david... I like it! As for "Torres in Charge"... In my world, I'm actually amazed at how much Torres DID, especially compared to Seven. Other than the picnic and some microsurgery, did she "do" anything... other than die untimely in a future destined to be changed? D47 Re: "Take us OUT!" Jules is right, that "Janeway" herself was lost on that extra 23 year journey...and when you consider the "scenario" around an older Janeway bullying a younger Janeway, it makes sense the Captain would distrust the Admiral's intentions. After all, who knows Janeway better than herself? Chakotay was willing to sit back and let the two women lead them out of the desert, and yet the Captain was always waiting "for the other shoe to drop." SHe knows how obsessed and single minded she can be... and how that's not always been a "good" thing for her "to be". The knowledge that her 2 steadiest confidants were beyond her, in the AQ... and the realization that she'd have been stewing in the guilt of their loss, along with the loss of 22 crew, should have rasied the spectre of distrust over the Admiral's plan. Once she found something within that nebula she did NOT expect... and realized the Admiral knew it all the time... it allowed her to distance herself from her future self. D47 Roxanne Dawson agrees with you, Jules. At least, regarding the "open ended" nature of the finale. She said repeatedly that everyone's storyline is open to interpretation. I think TPTB also defused some of the "welcome home hoopla" by allowing the crew to actually communicate with home... even if it was only in monthly text files and later realtime video... all be it in 3 minute increments. By now Tom has spoken with dear old Dad & Mom... and introduced them to the "little woman". We "did" get to see Tom and B'Elanna speaking with "her" Dad, and heard that Miral truely "is" in Stovokor... (sniff.) which I think was even more important to the character "arc" shown this season. Tom had already "heard" his Dad's voice as far back as season 6, and heard the pride the Admiral obviously harbored for him. D47 Wow. That's a really good point, David... but now you've got me wondering why in popular culture the guy always gets the girl in the end, but the girl ends up alone. So, Voyager, is just part of a larger pattern. [Didn't Ripley have her red cat?] Sigh... I guess I would like to have seen this as a long journey of self-actualization, sort of like The African Queen where the heroes transcend the roles that have been placed on them by society [as a result of class and gender] to surpass themselves and achieve great things and come out of it liking themselves a lot more than they did at the beginning of the story because the journey has enriched them. Janeway realizes that there's more to life than the Starfleet way and Paris, Torrez and Chakotay realize that Starfleet people do have hearts and good principles. Plus, what is age to a hologram? As he himself said... "she" may grow old, but he won't. By choosing someone "so young".... he increases his chance of a long relationship. Through my mind's eye... I saw too OLD friends sparring and one turning the other aside with a flick of her tongue. D47 But the heroine's journey "didn't" end that way, Malcom. Janeway got her crew safely home. Chakotay and Seven are alive and free to pursue any relationship they wish... and now have "other" options than simply each other. Tuvok will be treated and cured, and so be available to partner with Janeway in any future starship assignments. B'Elanna and Tom will raise Miral in the AQ... within hailing distances of Grandpa Torres and Nana and Grampa Paris. Harry will finally get promoted, and hopefully settle down with a "nice AQ" kind of woman that won't suck the life-force out of him,... unless he "wants" her to! The Borg Queen is DEAD, DEAD, DEAD!!!!! And JANEWAY killed her! Which will undoubtably mean she will be feted at many parties throughout the AQ... and one day will look up to find a dashing Captain walk through her door to escort her to the "next" party... and will eventually live "happily" ever after. At least... I really don't see the Chak/Seven thing as a May/Dec romance as much as the closest thing "out" of the chain of command that Chakotay could have on the ship. He, as much as Janeway, has been restrained by the command thing, and although "I'd" have prefered he and Janeway to work out some mutual arrangement... I can believe that Janeway would never allow herself that luxury. In fact, she told us (and Chak) as much, back in season 2's "Elogium". He finally allowed himself to "believe" it, and decided to get on with his life. Now that she's back in the AQ, and can "put her burden down"... Janeway can do the same. Get "on" with her life. D47 I would have loved to see that growth in the characters. It's what I was hoping for when I first fell in love with Voyager in the beginning, and the lack of it is a huge disappointment now. And, frankly, I'm disappointed that Voyager did follow the old tired standard ending where the heroine ends up alone and this is somehow supposed to symbolize how strong she is. Garbage! It's really just another way of showing that if you're a strong woman you're going to end up alone and unhappy. God, I'd hoped we had grown a little more than that in the Trek universe. Again, if we had any indication that this was Janeway's choice, I'd have been perfectly happy with it. Since the clear implication is that it's the result of her obsession with her past mistakes and her inability to embrace her present life, I'm mad as hell. There are simply no excuses at this point that are going to make me any less angry. If they just had to go there, why couldn't the dialogue have gone like this: "You should try it [marriage] sometime." "My life is full the way it is, thanks. But that's a very pretty arm ornament you have there." MEG Re: Real answer... Now Nina.. when did YOU get so cynical? My 2 cents. Real answer #2: They couldn't put Tuvok into stasis without jeopardizing their return home. Remember what Joe the Doc told Future Tuvok about that star date? Janeway had been kidnapped, and it was Tuvok that saved her? Putting him into stasis might have slowed his degeneration (maybe!) but it would have robbed Voyager of one of its best resources, and therefore endangered it's return to the AQ. D47 That's all just way too scary! Some people shouldn't be allowed to pass on their DNA. . .err, nanoprobes. . .errrr, whatever. And some people definitely shouldn't be allowed to give singing lessons. The horror! The horror!!! MEG Im still wondering how best to defend... Admral Janeway's actions. Adm Janeway, whom, despite my recognition of her terrible qualities, Ive grown to love, has been accused by some of "temporal genocide" and suchlike. Funny how none of these criticisms were thrownat the TIMELESS Harry Kim. But how DOES one BEST defend Adm Janeway against these charges? david g And Biller also prepared us ...by warning us that not all ends were tied at the end of the finale...which Ive grown to respect as a decision. david g Is the Borg queen dead? She has been dead before!! Twice!!! The only explanation we are offered is a rebuke for thinking so 3 dimensionally! I was pondering the ppossibility that the whole Borg collective was infected with the virus. As it filters down each unimatrix ...is the sun finally setting of the Borg empire? Is this the end?.....or did they adapt. I guess we will have to wait a long time to find out. Tim Re: Im still wondering how best to defend... david, there "is" no defense to that charge... because in a sense its "true". Anyone who's ever tried to change time in scifi is guilty of it, that's one off the reasons its "against the temporal prime directive". Look what happened in the "original" time travel startrek ep. Just "one" person was affected by McCoy, and then millions died as a result in a true genocide. I think, if you really feel the need to defend her, then you can simply state the case for intent / motivation. McCoy didn't "intend" to commit genocide by saving Edith Keeler, but unfortunately he aided the act. Admiral Janeway didn't intend to commit temporal genocide when she aided Voyager. All those people alive during Voyager's 7th season, in the AQ, would continue to be alive, their paths would simply go down a different timeline. Maybe Naomi Wildman wouldn't find the same gentleman, and have the same Sabrina... but then again maybe she would. What was it Scotty told McCoy in the fourth movie... when he was questioned about giving the secret of Transparent aluminum to that guy in Frisco... "How do we know he didn't invent it in the first place?" D47 Me too. nt Good point, Shadda. (NIM) I guess I still don't see why Janeway must have a man, by choice or by circusmtances, to be happy or for a happy ending. If that's the message being conveyed, then I guess I'm liking EG less and less. And I'm really disgusted about Biller's comments, if true, that J is too old for C. The comments certainly support your interpretation! But as davidg has pointed out, it is also pretty radical to have a 76-year-old woman at the center of the action. And I enjoyed Adm. J's "single"-mindedness, both the good and the bad. Sure, I've always been a J/C'r but only because of the apparent chemistry between them. A J/C resolution would have "felt right" unlike the rushed and sleazy 7/C. Typical Trek -- a mixed bag of the good, the bad, the ugly and the stupid PTB commentary Ah, that got past me, Deb. Gotta rewatch! Oh, THAT'LL be painful... Ditto. Relationships are wonderful. But romantic ones are not the only kind that matter in life! The only one I thought looked too old was Tom... ...but now that I think about it, considering his dad looks older than he probably is, it's probably a genetic thing! I thought Janeway looked great...I did notice some sagging and wrinkles around her neck, but as far as your objections to her face and the possibilities of face lifts, Terry...my Aunt Ida didn't have a line on her face when she died at 72; and this was after years of suffering from the ravages of Alzheimer's. I always thought it was a cruel joke, actually, for as the Alzheimer's got worse, her face became more beautiful as the innocence of memory loss (babyhood?) seemed to reappear in her eyes and she stopped reacting to outside stimuli. But some people (men and women) just are lucky to age beautifully naturally. (My mother...and please don't tell her I said this!...on the other hand does have her fair amount of wrinkles, though her skin is incredibly soft and lustrous, and she is now 75.) I thought RD as B'lanna looked GORGEOUS. And imho, GW as Harry has always looked beter, more handsome, whenever he has played Harry older, greyer and a bit more weathered. But I think the probably reality is that Wang, with his baby face, will be one of those gentlemen who ages remarkably well and will always look at least 10 years younger than he is, if not more. Mindy Besides, who said Tom wasn't still a professional pilot anyway? Lots of people do more than one thing in their life and at the same time...hey, look at our resident author emiritus, Nina!!! And I was working in the O.R. when I first got published. And I didn't stop working in the O.R. for another 4 years. Mindy Chuckle, chuckle. Good point, Mindy! Agreed, Deb, on Torres in charge. I'm guessing that she might have been in early labor for some of the refit scenes where she's shown striding around engineering, but just ignored it because she had things to do! I always wanted more B'Elanna screen time than I got from Voyager, but in "Endgame," almost all of it was very good stuff. And while part of me is still a little irked at the Bellowing B'Elanna in Labor cliche, at least she seemed strong during those moments, not a weak helpless woman at the mercy of her body as we so often see on television. Her comment, "Let's get this show on the road," was perfect. Then there's a part of me that can't help draw a parallel between B'Elanna giving birth and Voyager zooming out of the fireball of the destroyed Borg sphere, but that's probably just a bit over the top... AC But then we ARE stuck with the unsavory prospect... that Adm Janeway is a temporal criminal who puts her wishes before everyone else's. Geordi tells Harry in TIMELESS that he'd probably be doing the same thing as Harry is doing, but that he has to stop him, anyway. MY question is, What was Biller going for in having Adm Janeway do this? Did he mean to muddy the moral waters or did he mean for us to take Adm Janeway as a hero, ultimately? That's how I see her...ultimately. david g What a great point, AC Voyager "born" in the AQ--reborn--as Miral Paris is born...I see that image as symbolic of rebirth/birth, myself, and previously likened it to a butterfly bursting from its chrysalis. david g Besides, if stasis had been an option, *Captain* Janeway would have used that (nim) Jim Wright, that was a great review that did DELTA BLUES proud! I thank you. NIM Sigh... david, sit down, have some coffee, its time you knew the facts of life. Janeway isn't always "right". Now don't have a cow, and "no"... I'm not Eric is disguise...
Janeway the fallible, feeling Admiral... went one step "too" far. She sacrificed her present to give her crew a future that included the Alpha Quadrant 23 years sooner than predicted. This, my Boston colleague, was selfish and there's no way around that. Was she a heroine for doing this? No. She was egotistical and blind to her agenda, the saving of her crew, and her younger self. If that was how the show ended... then you really "would" have muddy waters obscuring our white haired paragon. But that's not how it ended. Janeway... the "Admiral" met Janeway "The Captain"... and found her moral center once again. Like so many of us, the older woman fell for the integrity of the younger woman, and by doing so... came to realize her own error in logic. She came to repent of her sin of selfishness, and she paid the ultimate price for that sin. She died. She died, without ever knowing if her crew got home safely. She died, without ever knowing if the Borg were well and truly defeated. But david... she died on her FEET... on her OWN terms... for the love of 140 odd souls and one hologram. david... In my book... THAT'S a heroine! D47 Re: "Happily ever after..." I don't think its "just" the strong woman who stands alone at the end of many films... scifi or otherwise. Trek in general has a history of the "Captain" standing alone at the end... Kirk dieing in "Generations", Picard still without a "partner" by startrek 9, Sisko was married twice, but still went into the wormhole without his true love in "the end". Janeway is following a pattern, in a way, of Trek heros bound more to their ship/crew than to themselves. Be that as it may, I still don't think Endgame is ending with "Janeway" being alone. Janeway had very little choice on Voyager while it was in the Delta Quadrant, and now she has the whole of Starfleet/the Alpha Quadrant to choose from. Just because the original "Admiral" never married, doesn't mean the Captain can't find true love. The two women may be genetically the same but in fact they are very different. This Captain doesn't have the 23 years of regrets to carry that the Admiral had to shoulder. D47 Someone must have noticed - the promo ran several times tonight and included Sisko (NIM) That analysis, Deb? PERFECTION! I love that my Janeway isnt infallible... david g Check out Trek Today for the full story http://www.trektoday.com/news/300501_01.shtml david... its a disease... that strikes many of us. Some call it "Janewayitis". Some call it "HyperAuburnQueenism". Some just call it "hopeless". The sad thing is... there's no cure, and the withdrawl pangs are threatening to set in.
D47 Re: But then we ARE stuck with the unsavory prospect... David, Ronit and I were discussing this last night. At risk of breaking Ronit's confidence I'm going to cite her here. She mentioned someone saying that someone in the Trek Hierarchy said that the writers "loved" writing for Kirk. And it shows. No matter what a blowhard he his, no matter how stupid a decision he makes, you come away liking him and understanding why others follow him. Now, I feel the same way about Janeway, but, as Ronit wonders, do the writers love writing for Janeway? I'm not sure they do. All we know about Adm J is that she is now captain of an LMD (Large Mahogany Desk) and has written a few books. But we see no signs that she enjoys what she's doing, that she has any fun in her private life (seeing a love interest, neices or nephews, sister, SOMETHING would have helped here), so she has little to lose by going back in time. So, her motives don't come across as altruistically as they should have. Maybe if Biller and the writers felt more comfortable writing for her we might have seen more a sense of sacrifice here. Mulgrew's performance almost makes this work. Again, I think it's the writers that failed her here. If they'd showed her having those things, though in their minds, I fear - and in the minds of many viewers, I am too sure - she'd have been tarred immediately as a BAD WOMAN for being willing to leave her "loved ones" for any reason at all. Can't win! (I'm trying to decide whether to bother responding to a post on another board in which someone's citing Janeway "choosing to live alone" as if it were a symptom of some kind of psychiatric illness. AARRGGHH.) Re: If they'd showed her having those things, though I'd love to give you an argument, but you're exactly right. Remember all those people who thought Christa McAuliffe was being selfish to risk her own safety when she had kids. Funny, no one said that about the other crew members... ...first let me say it was a lot of fun watching this final episode with many of the Neb gang at Niagara Falls. Vic T. did a wonderful job setting everything up, she was a great Captain. One thing we all did after the episode ended was go around the room and ask what each person attending thought of 'Endgame'. This was very interesting and lots of fun. I was surprised how many people did not like the Chakotay/Seven romance or felt so-so about the ep. as a whole. I thought it was great!!! Okay, I admit I was hoping for Katie and Chuck to get together, but this was the next best thing. I'm a hopeless romantic, so I was happy the lonelest main characters ended up with someone, Chuck, Seven, Neelix...and Janeway saved her crew and ship, which was her great driving passion. I also liked seeing the baby born and Toms eyes light up at the end when he heard her cry for the first time. Hmmmm...I guess she was born in the Alpha quadrant, just barely? Also, enjoyed the two Katies, as I said in Niagara Falls, "the more Katies the better". She even looked stunning in gray hair as the older version I suppose only two things bothered me at the end: 1-I could have done without the Borg showing up and would have preferred an ep totally devoted to character resolution. 2-I wish we had seen more happen between Tom and his dad. Maybe Tom could have said: "You have a new granddaughter to meet" or something like that to him. Or Admiral Paris could have said "welcome home, my son, daughter and grandchild". So, yes, they had a few surprises out of nowhere for us, like Chuck and Seven, but I liked that. After all they had a lot to do in just a 90 minute (or how ever long it was) episode. They took some risks and for the most part it paid off. In a more perfect world they would have devoted at least four shows leading up to the finale and showing the Seven Chuck relationship growing, but we did already know Seven had a thing for Chuck. He was her choice in her holo-romance. So good-bye, Voyager, I probably could not have taken another season of Voy, but I will miss it none the less. Most of all I will miss discussing it with all of you. Hopefull we will have a new Trek series worth discussing in the future. Mike Re: The more Kates the better... Mike, are you going to drag your iron lung to the Trek con in NYC next winter? D47 A con in NYC? I might just do that, D47... ..I'm not really big on going to NYC, but I may go for this if I can get in without driving. Where is it going to be? Hopefully it will be at the Jacob Javits convention Center or somewhere we can take the ferry boat to, without driving in. Mike Another Big ENDGAME Mystery! Mike, I have come to share in your perspective on Chak/Seven... And I totally agree on the two Janeways, my main reason for loving this ep. Brava Mulgrew. Ok, a question--are the BORG decimated at the end? I assumed it was only the Borg connected to this particular transwarp hub... also, as Janey pointed out, you can see a Borg Cube escaping the blast. so, I doubt the Borg even in EG are killed off. david g Mile, from Geordies 5/25/01 post... Copied shamelessly, and completely... "According to Slanted Fedora site, Kate Mulgrew is also coming to New York City on the first weekend of January 2002. I'm glad, for I can able to see her again without needing to spend for hotel or airfare! More info can be found at http://www.sfedora.com/newyork.htm For those near Philiadelphia, Kate will be thore for the Slanted Fedora November con. Info at http://www.sfedora.com/Philadelphia.htm Anyone near Raleight, North Carolina, your chance to see Kate will come at the end of September a few weeks after the Las Vegas con. More info can be found at http://www.sfedora.com/raleigh,.htm So it seems Kate will be attending many cons in the year. And she mentioned in an article that she doesn't do cons. Right, Kate, we hear you, so we'll tell you so at your next con." As for me (D47)... the "more" cons, the better! She was tres cool last Sat in Cleveland! D47 Really? I thought it was more scary then most horror movies! I still have nightmares about Chak's jaw getting all a'trembley! OOOOO s-s-s-s-s-seven! But that's just my opinon! Eric Darned if she does, darned if she doesn't? Nina said... "in their minds, I fear - and in the minds of many viewers, I am too sure - she'd have been tarred immediately as a BAD WOMAN for being willing to leave her "loved ones" for any reason at all. " Agreed, Nina. Whereas Chakotay seemed noble when he left his ladylove to return to Voyager in Timeless... Janeway would undoubtably have been seen as cold and calcuating. In my mind's eye, I see the last 10 years of Admiral Janeway's life, the way Sisko spent the 3 years between the Battle of Wolf 359 and his discovery of the wormhole. A linear being that was unfortunately stuck at one point in time. The point, being the missed opportunity in the Transwarp hub. Interesting, the fact that Janeway "knows" about it, suggests that she discovers it's existance at another time. Hmmm. Maybe Seven downloaded the info from another encounter with the Borg Queen... perhaps that was the one where she "died in her husband's arms"? Such a mission would be so "important", the Admiral knew Seven wouldn't refuse to take it even though her death was forwarned? Sigh. I'm going to miss this show, but I am really liking the "open ended" way it finished. Leaving us such speculation regarding "what" went on in the years after the hub was bypassed and Janeway got them home... and the speculation of what our crew will do now that they are home. I understand the complaints about this ending, and can respect someone's opinion that it leaves something wanting... I just wish others could understand that the fact I like it doesn't mean "I'm" wanting. D47 Interesting analysis, david And I have one further thought to add. Captain Janeway is the hero (or one of them) of the stories that we've been following. Admiral Janeway is just a potential future that she might grow into. Unless that's confirmed by future events - and the story makes it clear that events change in such a way that Janeway will never ultimately grow into that person, or need to make the decisions she did - the Admiral is not our Janeway. The bottom line is, the Kathryn Janeway we've been following all this time is the one we're meant to identify with most closely when they come head to head. Therefore she's also the one who will be most right when they get down to debating the merits of their respective plans, and also the one who will sacrifice her life so the other can win. It's a little like "Deadlock", in a way. The Janeway who survives is not the one who's best equipped for it by knowledge and/or ship status and firepower... she's the one whose life we've been following; our "real" Janeway. Which isn't to say that I didn't love seeing both of them together, or want them both to be right and justified in their moral choices. (I would love for the Admiral to have had a stronger and more compelling argument for messing with the timeline than she actually did.) But I knew all along which Janeway I was rooting for if it came to a parting of the ways, and it was the one I've known and loved for the past seven years. Jules Kroeker directed episodes...
(and I haven't checked the whole of season seven, so there may be a couple more there as well) The final one on the list is the only one that actually makes me want to throw things at the screen. Jules Me,too, Keep me posted! (nim) I saw it a little differently I thought Admiral Janeway's being so alone and so emotionally distant was a result of the isolation she endured as captain during Voyager's long stranding in the Delta Quadrant--another kind of suffering because it took so long for them to return to the Federation. The Admiral had essentially sacrificed her personal relations with others to Voyager's exile. By helping Voyager return earlier, she's giving her younger self a better chance to connect herself with other people--a less dramatic effect than saving Chakotay's life or helping Tuvok get medical treatment, but significant nevertheless. Sherry My god, exactly what I was going to say, Jules Even though Im not a huge BoC fan, it is very well done...all of the Kroeker eps are excellent... EXCEPT for Inside Man. what a flat out disaster. some cute moments. but...what a bore! david g Bride of Chaotica! is an interesting episode to have on your directing CV Clearly Kroeker went back and did a fair bit of research into the genre before filming it, because he has pretty much all the cliches down pat, including the cuts between scenes. The script may in fact be the weakest element in the whole episode (and it's certainly not bad, even if not Voyager's all time best): the set design and costuming is brilliant, the filming of it extremely faithful to the genre... and I'm shallow enough to appreciate how gorgeous some of the actors look in black and white. Paris and Janeway particularly are flattered by it. The only problem is, every time I rewatch the episode I then have to fight the urge to break out the videos of the Buster Crabbe Flash Gordon and watch the entire set again, and that takes hours and hours! Jules Here, here, Jules! Jules said..."But I knew all along which Janeway I was rooting for if it came to a parting of the ways, and it was the one I've known and loved for the past seven years." It wasn't "just" the crew of the Voyager who was loyal to Captain Janeway... it was we, the audience. With "apologies" to the Admiral... Ahem... Oh Captain, my Captain... I Thank God the deck isn't "red". I don't think I could have withstood "that" timeline. D47 pointed out the Admiral was saving not just the 22 members of her crew, and Tuvok's mind/Chakotay's heart... she was also trying to save "herself". Sigh. Its over Sherry.
But what a GREAT ride!
D47 Well, of course it doesn't mean that, Deb! Because if feeling satisfied with the ending as it was, means that you are "wanting" - then I guess that makes two of us. Reset Ripples Shadda- You captured my perspective regarding Tom as well. Seemed a bit off. Thinking it through, however, I think the reset could have many ripple effects: Capt Kate: An Alpha Quadrant Captain. How will she fit in??? Chakotay: Teaching Anthropology? Seven: Star Fleet Intel snatches her away...How does this affect her new relationship??? Tuvok: Time to settle on Vulcan for awhile or back to the Academy?? Tom: With Dad still active in Star Fleet....what pressures will be placed? Surely Tom is more resistant but I also think he will not settle down to holo-novels quite so quickly this time. B'Ellana: I see her doing some engineering work related to all the technology she learned in the DQ. Why not a consultant to Star Fleet? Harry: Stays in Star Fleet...all the way. Doc: Maybe has more of a struggle than if it was 16 years later. I just think that the reset ripple effect could be significantly different than what we saw. I also think there could be many more negatives than positives. Voyager is not as "venerable" with only 7 years and a younger crew. They truly have second and third "lives" ahead rather than retirement years. My thoughts, Sue_B relocated to stop thread scrolling problem - originally in reply to Shadda's "Re: If it'd been up to me... (part one)" Whew! I was afraid you meant I was wrong about the "Bad woman" remark.
Nina, sigh. Its over.
Next question.
Can we come up with an original concept for a Voyager movie to supplant TNG when they bow out next year?????
D47 (Hey, you know what I always say... "Delusions are us!") "Delusions are us!" Hmmm. I'm sure we can come up with something, Deb. Re: Bride of Chaotica! is an interesting episode to have on your directing CV Did you know that show was a result of a fire on the bridge set? Or so I've heard anyway. Nah, just rumour The show was planned anyway... that's why they built the sets, had them show up in a couple of teasers in previous episodes, and had the Chaotica actor under contract during the season. I first heard it rumoured very early in the season. The filming of it coincided with the bridge set fire, but I suspect that all they did about that was to postpone bridge scenes from the episodes filmed during the three weeks it took them to rebuild and then film them later, and possibly relocate the odd scene from those episodes to another set. But if you check, Chaotica does have several bridge scenes. Jules About that Borg mystery, David... ...I had the impression that Admiral Katie had done *tremendous* damage to the borg and their conduit network, but I doubt you can really destroy all the borg in one shot like that. The borg are just to scattered about. However, I only saw the episode once and I was having so much fun with the group watching it in Niagara Falls I probably missed a lot of details. I plan to rewatch it sometime soon and pickup on what I may have missed at the Sheraton when Ruthie blocked the screen going for yet another slice of pizza Mike PS-You really should try to come to the next gathering, David. I'm sure you'd have fun. Thanks for the info, Deb47. (NIM) Would you believe I have never been to a Trek con! What I find interesting, Sue, is the consistency of Tom in EG "I AM home, Harry." The way RDM delivers this line, he seems positively frustrated and let-me-put-you-in-your-placeish with Harry. And then we have the scene where Tom i think projects his own fears about getting home by overreading what B'Ellana says in the Enginneering room. B'Elanna says, "This new armor the Admiral brought is really something. This just might work." The way RD reads this line, it sounds like a (welcome) sign of B'Ellana's enthusiasm. But the more muted Tom overreads the line as B'Ellana's own hesitancy about getting home. Which is not to suggest that Tom or B'Elanna really want to get home as much as some of the others do. In fact, I cant help but wonder if Chak is so keen on it, either, considering how often he suggested parking indefinitely on some rogue planet while mortal enemies fought it out above. I wish there'd been more introspection on these points, but...o well. david g Re: What I find interesting, Sue, is the consistency of Tom in EG You've really touched on an important point here, David. From the get go, Janeway and Kim, among the senior staff, were hottest to get home. This was one of the sources of friction between K and Chak in "Resolutions." She was losing a lot more than he was - command of a starship (a pretty big deal), a promising career with Starfleet, a guy back home, etc. But the resolution of "Hunters" left me at least with the impression that there was a whole lot less back on earth for all of them. Another problem with the recent writing for Chakotay is that we suddenly learned he has a sister back in the Alpha Quadrant. As you point out, he always has had a lot of mixed feelings about getting back. They almost dealt with it in the one episode where he and Janeway watch the transmission from the admiral. You can see the steam coming out of Janeway's ears, but he is oddly impassionate about the admiral's comments. In fact, he seems to almost be on the verge of laughing. I don't know if this is just Beltran's interpretation, or what. She seems so much more passionate about this than he is. He just doesn't seem to care. I'm rambling, but I'm trying to say that you are exactly right that Chakotay's feelings here have not been explored. You've hit on something, too, Malcom! That's exactly why it was such bad writing to casually disclose the existence of Chakotay's sister, after years of ambiguity about his family (we know his father is dead - we don't know about anyone else for sure, in canon anyway). I almost hate to mention "Pathways" again. I will never get over being irritated with Pocket Books for stating originally that "because the author is a Trek executive producer, the events in this book will be treated as canon" - and then denying ever saying that, after Jeri Taylor left the series. BUT, per Kate Mulgrew, "Mosaic" was used in the scripts by design. So I suspect Beltran has been thinking all along that "Pathways" is right; Chakotay lost his entire family (except a cousin in Ohio!), and his tribe's entire colony was wiped out. So in a late, late episode, now he's had a sister all along! Wunnerful. Just lovely. Chakotay goes from having slight motivation to want to get back "home" (to a world that's not his birthplace, to a society that may or may not pardon him for his Maquis deeds), to having a major reason (considering the character's respect for family connections) to want that in spite of its perils. His "almost laughing" that you mention (I noticed that, too!) goes from being right-on-the-money acting, to not fitting his character at all. But I suppose this is only a perfect example of one of the pitfalls of "management by committee." STOP ME BEFORE I RANT AGAIN. Tom vis a vis Chakotay As David pointed out, the writers handled the gentle shift in Tom's attitude towards getting back home very deftly. This was especially impressive given that it was done within the confines of one two-hour episode. But they really blew it with Chakotay. Tracy, I dont think youre rambling at all And remember in LIFE LINE, a great strand they left unwoven (?), Janeway tells Chak that she is frustrated by the Starfleet attitude twds Chak and B'Ellana as "her Maquis." "I think of you and B'Ellana as my crew." But Chak is pretty impassive during this scene. The fairest interpretation of Beltran's acting in this moment I can give is that he portrays Chak as a man who resolutely keeps things in. Actually, this is consistent with what B'Ellana says so passionately about him in MANEUVERS. david g Oh, thanks Mike! I cant imagine meeting a nicer bunch of people than you guys. david g "Would you believe...?" And yes, I would believe it. Hey, I was 40 before I went to one.
On Wednesday, I was chatting with a colleague in Vermont, and "wished" for a consult with "Dr Leonard McCoy". Well, the lady "understood" the reference and when I congratulated her on her "understanding" she laughed and said she was a trekkie from "way back". As proof, she told me how she used to go to trek cons. "Speak of the devil..." I laughed, and told her where I was last week. Well, I think I have someone else ready to join "The House of Janeway" when it travels to its next con.
D47 Re: Who should get more screentime Weeelll, maybe they did. After all, we only saw Chuckles setting a course. I prefer to believe that once they actually got *home* Paris would take over at the helm, Torres (she's a Klingon, she'll bounce back fast) would be at the engineering station, and the proud parents would dump the baby on the Captain (after all, she doesn't have any buttons to push - the Captain, I mean, not the baby although she doesn't either) so the whole 'senior' family could be on the bridge for the actual moment of arrival. And since they didn't show it, there's no way to disabuse that notion, which frankly suits me fine. As long as Chuckles doesn't get to do the victory roll over the Golden Gate and/or Bay Bridges because that really would make my bile rise! Re: Real answer... Now Nina.. when did YOU get so cynical? Janeway had been kidnapped, and it was Tuvok that saved her? That still isn't a reason. Surly someone else would have saved her. Let's not forget the old adage regarding how important we all are, simply put you hand into a bucket of water and then remove it, the hole left is the measure of your importance. There is someone else who will do the job. We are all replacable. Even Tuvok, for that matter even Janeway. Remember "Shattered", they seemed to be getting along without Janeway or Chakotay. I wouldn't want them to, but that doesn't mean they couldn't. They needed several plot devices, that was one of them. Shadda Because they gave no indication what so ever that he piloted after they got home. Especially after the line he delivered to B'Elanna in engineering promising not to take the next flying assignment that came along. I think they wanted us to believe that as soon as they got back to the Alpha Quad Tom stopped flying. I find that sad. And lets not forget, he was in his 50s when they got back to the Alpha quad, so yes, he stopped flying when he got "home". Shadda I believe that things will be very different. Though, I still like the idea of Tom not staying in Starfleet. I think that RDM sees Tom as staying in and eventually becoming a Captain, maybe I could see Chakotay teaching again. He really doesn't seem to love the adventure of life in space. He only goes there out of necessity. The Voyager isn't that old a ship. Everyone talks like it is old and decrepit. It is only 7 years old and probably, with all the Borg enhancements can do more then the average ship in the fleet. Shadda Speaking of set design... Okay, we weren't exactly speaking of set design but I discovered something interesting while watching "Endgame" with my son's girlfriend. She said in passing, having never watched Voyager before, "Is this Voyager? My father was one of the original set designers for this show." He is the set designer for "JAG" now and is moving on to that new series "First Monday" or what ever it's called about the Supreme Court. Anyway, that was fun. His last name is Bacon so it may show up on the first couple of season's credits. I knew there was a reason I liked the first seasons better then the last ones Shadda Just because Tom didn't fly for a living doesn't mean he didn't fly for the sheer enjoyment of it on his own. No big ships, sure, but I'd think that flying smaller craft is more fun. He seemed to enjoy the flyer more than Voyager itself. Voyager was a career but shuttles are fun. The African Queen is one of my all-time favorite movies, so I thought that was a perfect comparison, Malcolm. One of the great things about it is the fact that it shows BOTH characters growing, not just one changing to keep up with the other. It is a pity we couldn't see this development. You're right, MEG: by this time, the Federation culture should have outgrown the either/or notion about strong women. We could even have seen Janeway with a gasp! younger man. I do see another reason for Janeway's solitary state in this alternate future: she'd sacrificed everything else in seeking a way to change the past and bring Voyager home earlier. Now that they are home successfully, our Janeway can pursue a personal life. Sherry Re: I believe that things will be very different. It's a very good point. RDM in interviews has certainly felt that Paris was likely to go on and eventually become a captain - that it was his 'best destiny'. So if the actors ever had any realistic input into the eventual destiny of their characters I'm sure this is the way Tom would have gone. The fact that it probably wasn't realistic - given Starfleet's rigid and inflexible attitude about people who reveal themselves to be less than perfect - is one of the reasons that I'm glad they never developed the 'future' theme for Tom any further than they did. One of the things that distressed me (well, that's probably a strong word but never mind) about Tom's development since he got married was that he suddenly became very timid and risk-averse. Maybe he was doing that as a kneejerk reaction to suddenly having a baby on the way, but you can't sustain long term something which is so against your character. Eventually it would have made him bitter and resentful that he had sacrificed his own dreams and hopes so completely in order to be a 'good husband and father'. While I'm sure that being a good husband and father would have given him immense satisfaction, and was itself a mature and admirable thing for him to want, the fact that he might have thrown away the things that he was really good at and taken some kind of ground assignment for the rest of his working life makes me sad for the character. It's really the same kind of attitude that made another member of the board so annoyed when Janeway made her 'not worth even one life' speech in Friendship One. If people hadn't risked the possibility of dying, or being away from their families for periods of time, then there would have been no Starfleet, probably no Federation, probably no humans left. Or should Starfleet's main fleet be entirely populated with career people who don't plan to have families. That's a blatant waste of the non-shallow end of the gene-pool. I didn't hear it that way I didn't think his promise to B'Elanna said he'd stop flying. He was recognizing that yes, he had other considerations now--B'Elanna and their daughter--to weigh along with his love of piloting. He wasn't going to jump into the first available ship as he might have done before, but he wasn't saying he'd give it up. Besides, I agree with Terry and the others who've said that he was doing something else besides piloting, not necessarily instead of it. Hmmmm...Permenant versus Passing Personlity Particulars I think Tom is like many first-time parents. Suddenly your life focus takes a major change. You realize a little life is dependant on you and things you use to worry about just don't seem important. Conversely, things that seemed reasonable also look different. I think his risk aversion was fairly in character with a parent and RDM played that from the heart. Having said that, he was also ready to battle the Borg rather than take a safe ride home. It would not surprise me if he volunteered a little less but still kept a life-style that had more potential for danger than your average Mom & Pop. My thoughts. Sue_B I heard it the same way you did, Sherry. nt Re Timid Tom... Begonia, one of my friends is a rock climber in the summer/ice climber in the winter. He rolls his eyes whenever his wife tells the story of the night she sent the State troopers after him, because he was overdo on his return from the ice shelf. As crazy as I think he is... and yes, even with 2 great kids and a wife, he still climbs every chance he gets. As crazy as he is, he has admitted to me that having a family HAS affected him. Made him "more timid" in his climbs. "Yeah, right!" I scoffed. But he was serious. As he pointed out, before, when all he had relying on him was "his wife" who's job makes as much money as his... he didn't think twice about executing risky manuevers on the rock face. Now that he has 2 boys who expect him home each night, he DOES think twice, and if its "too" risky, he won't do it. I think that's what Tom was trying to tell Harry in "Endgame". He's ready and able to do his job, but he's not going to go out and do crazy things, like try to break warp 10, or challenge 47 borg cubes in a nebula after Mama Janeway said its a BAD idea. That doesn't necessarily make him "timid" in my book... it just means he's growing up and able to consider the consequences of his actions beyond his narrow sense of self. If I can make a TNG reference, recall BOBW... when Commander Shelby was dissing Riker for "playing it safe" and he was complaining of it to Troi. Something like he remembered when the brashness Shelby exhibited was one of the things he "liked" in himself? Troi pointed out that he was more mature, and able to think beyond the "Go-Go Commander promote me Now!" mentality the Lt Commander was showing. "That" mentality may get you promoted quicker, but it wouldn't necessarily save the ship and Picard. This Tom gave me the first real glimpse into the mature officer that could take his place alongside the great Captains of Starfleet one day. And who knows??? Now that he's home 16 years earier... maybe he'll make RDM's predictions come true? D47 Cool, Shadda! Since I prefer to think that, I'll follow your lead. The thoughts of him not flying anymore is just too sad so I'll go along with the way you all saw it. It makes more sense, but they just never gave any indication he was flying. There were only two references and both seemed to say he wasn't flying or wouldn't fly. Maybe the books will flesh that out a bit. Shadda A theory after my own heart Another thought that occurred to me, Shadda... ...is that Tom might have wanted to stick with his family. While it seems clear that the Maquis members of the crew didn't get clapped in irons the moment they got home in the first timeline - from B'Elanna's ambassadorial position if nothing else - that doesn't necessarily mean that they got to stay in Starfleet as well. Or at least, not unless they were qualified. B'Elanna dropped out of the Academy in her second year. While I can see that they might grant her special dispensation and life credits for having served 20-odd years as an officer on board a Starfleet ship, she'd undoubtedly still have to take courses to graduate for real. And you didn't see any sign of her doing correspondence course Academy training alongside Icheb. So the chances are good that even if the offer was open, she might just feel that she was too old to go back and do whatever make-up training was required of her to stay in the position she was in. Or maybe she'd have had to start over as Ensign and didn't want to do that either. And if B'Elanna didn't stay in Starfleet, I think there's a good chance Tom wouldn't either, just to express solidarity with her, and so as not to be an absentee husband and father. It doesn't mean that he didn't get to keep flying. I'm sure he flies shuttles to get from A to B all the time. And even if his primary job became holoprogramming, there's no reason why Starfleet couldn't also call on his skills as a consultant, both as pilot and shuttle designer. But then again, maybe Tom did give up piloting, except on special occasions. That might have been his tragedy in the alternate timeline. While it's a smaller thing than Tuvok's mental state or Chakotay and Seven's deaths, it's still yet another sign that in that version of events getting home meant making a few compromises with happy ever after. In the revised timeline though, none of that applies. A younger B'Elanna would have time to work her way back into Starfleet and probably the energy and willpower to do it - let's not forget that the journey would have been hard on more than just Admiral Janeway. They'd both have had more energy, and more will to continue as explorers. I see the final timeline as being more hopeful for everyone, not just those who died or struggled with mental problems. Maybe the achievements of a Voyager that was only away for seven years might be considered less - although taking out a good bit of the Borg infrastructure is going to count pretty heavily in their favour - but the implication is certainly that life will be better for them as a result of it. Well, unless you happen to be Naomi Wildman's daughter, that is. Jules And it's that last point, Jules, that makes me cringe I wish I hadnt "met" Sabrina Wildman, because it's the sight of that little gil that makes me cringe at what Adm Janeway did, however much i love the character. david g Well, I certainly like that theory Deb. I just wish there had been at least some indication that he still had a little of that "adrinaline junkie" in him we all grew to love. Moderated by maturity is good, but I want some of that still there. And Jules, flying shuttles from point A to point B sounds soooo boring. Kind of like a race car driver simply driving to the market and back and calling it good. Shadda Agreed, Shadda But then, most of Voyager's evasive manoeuvers are pretty boring too. Just watch that ship after Janeway calls for one. It seldom flys on in anything other than a straight line. Small wonder the shields get hit so often. I guess whether flying shuttles from A to B is boring or not depends on the reliability of the shuttle, whether you designed it from scratch yourself, whether it's a particularly challenging journey to navigate, and whether you're playing test pilot for a prototype. Tom could do any or all of the above. I'm looking forward to getting another look at the finale in a few weeks time when it airs over here because I'd like another look at the nuances of those future scenes, but my impression of the future Tom is that he possibly had lost some of the adrenaline junkie part of his nature. And I miss that as much as you do, which is why I said that I wondered if the journey had weighed heavily upon him as well as Janeway, Tuvok and the dead, and extinguished that spark. Certainly in my mind the Tom who benefits from the changed future will retain that streak of daredevilry and his love of flying. And for that reason I can also see him staying in Starfleet, whether he ever achieves high rank or not. I'm sure he'll pilot a few more of the interesting classes of ships... but ultimately I see him getting his hands dirty with the smaller ships and shuttles, because they look so much more of a challenge to fly. Jules Right on Jules, hee hee I'll bet you haven't heard that one in a while I thought a bit more about it after I posted yesterday and decided that it would depend a lot upon how you flew those shuttles. Deb is right about the way Tom is protrayed in the final, as a matter of fact, the way he is portrayed in the last season. He is looking more and more like a Captain. I used to be fore square against him staying in Starfleet, now I'm changing my mind. He is very comfortable in that Captains chair, he does own it when he's in it. Unlike Harry who really doesn't fit in it right. I wish "30 Days" had been about Tom coming to some sort of understanding regarding his father instead of just Tom talking at his father. It would have made the homecoming better for me. That was one of those many missed opportunities. Shadda Paris' flying/Torres' rank In the now erased timeline: Tuvok obviously had to have been relieved of duty, which would likely have meant Tom became Second Officer(B'Elanna outranks him but the longer they were on their own the more the ship would have needed her engineering expertise so she likely remained Chief Engineer). Even if someone else took over at Tactical Tom would still have the extra administrative work and command time requiremets so less time for flying. Plus, Chakotay may not have been fully functional either, so Tom may have ended the trip as First Officer. He'd have had to relinquish most of his piloting duties. As to the holonovelist/diplomat, he and B'Elanna seem to have done what so many military/civil servants do now - retire after 20+ years and start second careers. In the now "real" timeline: I'm guessing they'll both stay in Starfleet. There's no reason for Torres to go back to school either - she has a field commission which will no doubt be honored. Remember, Nog had only finished 2 years at the Academy when he was commissioned, and Kira's rank is entirely based on experience, not formal education. As to Tom's comment about not taking the first piloting assignment, I took that as Tom probably planning on using some of his accumulated leave while B'Elanna's on maternity leave. Hopefully she'll be able to take whatever is usual in Starfleet, though she'll have to do the debriefs, as opposed to what little time she could have managed if they'd still been in the DQ. Maybe he'll train pilots for a while. Some more about that rank stuff Trek does weird stuff with the rank hierarchies. I think we're all agreed on that. Sometimes you can use real-world military equivalents as a model from which to extrapolate what Trek is up to, and sometimes you can't. But... so far as Voyager's own little area of weirdness is concerned, once Tom got that extra pip back there seems to have been some miracle of amnesia that means that his seniority is still traced back to his field commission as Lieutenant in "Caretaker". He may possibly no longer be senior to B'Elanna in terms of time served in rank, but he's command track and bridge staff, so he's the one who's fourth in command of the ship after Janeway, Chakotay and Tuvok. Interestingly, though we often speculated about that in the early days, I think the only time it's actually ever spelled out is after the demotion/reinstatement, where he points out to Chakotay in "Unimatrix Zero: 2" that with Janeway and Tuvok off the ship he's effectively first officer. (I'll grant you that B'Elanna was off the ship too, but since he didn't mention her I'm assuming that she wouldn't have been part of the rank ladder he was trying to climb in order to make a case to the acting captain for getting her back asap.) That's an interesting point that you make about the extra responsibilities and demands on his time that would likely occur once Tuvok's mental state started to seriously fail, and if Chakotay was sub par towards the end of the journey. Plus there are also his ongoing sickbay duties. I can definitely see that Tom might have less time to spend at the helm than he might like... though I'm willing to bet that he'd still be sitting in that chair any time they needed some critical or dangerous flying to be done. As for going back to school... in some ways I can see pretty much the entire crew doing that, or the ones who choose to stay in Starfleet at least. They've missed a lot of interplanetary politics and scientific inventions over the years that they've been away, and probably need a few refresher courses to get back up to speed. (And some of them will probably end up giving a few classes too, on all the stuff they know and the Alpha Quadrant doesn't.) My guess is that B'Elanna might be given very much the same sort of status as those who were commissioned in a hurry because of the Dominion War. But she might have to sit in the odd command school class as well before her next posting, even if anything she does is pretty much rubber stamped in advance because of the fact that she's already been doing the job for seven years. And I suggest that not so much because I think she (or any of those other Voyager crewmembers) needs the training, but because she's likely to get posted on to other ships where her new subordinates are likely to expect her to have it. Jules Re: Some more about that rank stuff I wasn't even thinking about Command School, or whatever it was Troi studied to finally pass the Commander's exam; they'll all probably need to do some of that (wonder if Starfleet has the 40 hours a year of training that many government jobs require). But there's no reason for her to bother with the basic undergraduate courses she missed when she dropped out. As Chakotay said in "Paralax" - "She could teach at the Academy." Re: Some more about that rank stuff Jules, I'm of the impression that Starfleet follows the Royal Navy approach to having sort of separate service lines among the officer corps, one for engineering and one for command. Only Starfleet has even more divisions. Does the RN still do this? Where's Tim? Tim, Fair Maidens in Distress looking for some help here. But, in today's military Tom, B'Elanna & Chakoaty's rank would be bounced back to Ensign At least that is what was explained to me by some ex-navy officer. If one leaves the service, then re-enters, he/she starts at Engisn (in the Navy). Now, that wouldn't prohibit the service from excelerating their promotions. But, it is a Star Trek World. Maybe that's why I can't wait for the FanFic and the books, and hopefully a movie. Di who's finally coming out of the woodwork. Sabrina might still exist... in the new timeline. I have a good hunch that Naomi hitch it up with Icheb. Remember "Shattered"? The older Icheb and Naomi has been on the ship for 17 years. In the old timeline of "Endgame", 16 years has passed before Voyager reached Fed space, thus it's possible that Naomi grew up as well as Icheb. I can't see Naomi hitching it up with another person only a year after returning to Fed space. Afterall, if Sabrina did develope as a normal human, she would have been born a year after Voyager returned. It's true that the new timeline might have Icheb and Naomi going their separate ways, thus Sabrina might not exist. But hey, one can never know, right? But a child of the same parents almost certainly wouldn't be the same person. A Sabrina might exist who would be genetically the sister to that erased Sabrina but they almost certainly wouldn't be the same. Two many combinations if even a few conditions are different. BTW, Naomi and Icheb? Squicky. I dont find that pairing squicky at all, Terry! They seemed just right for each other in SHATTERED, didnt they?! david g The ensign thing... That was what happened to Tuvok in "Mosaic." He left Starfleet and when he went back he was reinstated as an Ensign, at 70 something. I guess Harry isn't the oldest Ensign in the fleet! my favorite flyboy Tom grew up a lot this season, ever since he got repromoted. As for his wild side? Harry asks about his sense of adventure and he says, "I left it in that nebula and I'm not going back for it." and then "I am home, Harry." and then "Captain Proton doesn't have a wife...and a baby on the way." Harry teased Tom about becoming a dad and no fun in "Lineage." Tom won't ever stop having fun, we all know that, but he is wisely and appropriately reorganizing his priorities. He begins this season by taking his responsibilities far more seriously than he ever did before. He is far more aware of his placeon the ship. He needed "Thirty Days." He is a far better officer post "Thirty Days" than he ever was before. His next big step is asking B'Elanna to marry him. Mr "I never finish anything" he isn't any longer. With a wife, he becomes more grounded. Not a bad thing. Then, a baby! Everything in his life goes on upheaval, and rightly so. He is instinctively protective and less willing to be risky. He is a different man, a better man than he used to be. No wonder he was so hurt by the Doc's Lt Marseilles. So let's follow the 26 year AU in ff: 23 die, Tuvok goes crazy, he's raising his daughter on a starship, Chakotay is despondent, he's got an unorthodox but loveable captain, he's the main medical assistant so had to watch a lot of his friends die. He spent TWENTY THREE years on a starship, day in day out, life always on the line, wife's life on the line, child's life on the line, losing friends, and never knowing for sure what was around the next system. Keep in mind he started this mission as an observer so he could get out of prison early. No exactly what he ahd planned, huh? Heck, I'd retire too. Let my daughter have the adventures and kick back and write about my own. And if it strikes my fancy, take a shuttle out for a wild ride with my wife for old times sake. But scratch all that. His life doesn't have to be that any more. He, B'Elanna and little Miral get to make a home wherever it strikes their fancy. B'Elanna said in the finale, "I had actually gotten used to the idea of raising our daughter on Voyager." Now they have the freedom to choose to raise their daughter on Earth, on Kessik, on another starship - absolutely anywhere. They didn't have that freedom before. So Tom can choose to take the first piloting mission he's offered. B'Elanna can choose to stay chief engineer on Voyager. They can choose to retire, to teach, to serve on another ship, to travel, to hide, to play, to write - they have real options for the first time in seven years, and if you think about it, perhaps for the first time in their lives. "Thanks for you help, Admiral Janeway." Yes, I can make absolutely anything about Kathryn Janeway. Some see it as a sickness, I see it as wisdom. HOJ forever. But back to Tom and B'Elanna for a moment. Remembering an RD story from the weekend made me think of this: B'Elanna is the "Muse" and Tom is the true "Author, Author." Wow. I am a dork. Of course I'm not sure Tuvok ever got *beyond* ensign in his first Starfleet career. This year Tom stopped playing games He had his "Endgame" comment with Harry. In "Non-Sequitor" Harry mentions that the real universe Tom admitted that he considered life as a GAME. This year he has matured and has stopped playing "Tom Paris" as revealed in Captain Proton, and has become Tom Paris, Husband, Dad, critical decision maker. Biller did a great job with completing Tom's arc. Di relocated to stop thread scrolling problem - originally in reply to Janey's "my favorite flyboy" Re: This year Tom stopped playing games In "Non-Sequitor" Harry mentions that the real universe Tom admitted that he considered life as a GAME. This year he has matured and has stopped playing "Tom Paris" as revealed in Captain Proton, and has become Tom Paris, Husband, Dad, critical decision maker. Biller did a great job with completing Tom's arc. Di) I'm sorry, but I have to disagree. Harry made this comment about the Tom Paris who had lived BEFORE coming on board Voyager. Yes, he considered life as a game - before he lost. He lost on Caldik Prime, and was not this person afterwards. Harry being his best friend, of course they had discussed this part of Tom's life, but it wasn't what he was currently, at that time. In the first to third seasons, Tom was allowed to display traits of maturity and responsibility that even in the seventh season, he wasn't allowed to show, except as an exception to his 'normal' behaviour. In Heroes and Demons, once Chakotay and Tuvok had disappeared, he stepped without a single blink into the role of Janeway's second in command and advisor. He showed the same behaviour in Cathexis, though it was less obvious because for most of it Janeway still had Tuvok to bounce ideas off. In Faces, he was the accepted leader of an away team, showed that he understood his responsibilities clearly, and at the same time remained compassionate, and ready to take advantage of whatever opportunities arose. In Basics he conceived and put into practice by himself a plan for taking the ship back from the Kazon with only (as far as he knew) the Doctor (who didn't even have his mobile emitter at the time) to back him up on board the ship. He was trusted by Janeway AND Tuvok (who doesn't trust such things easily) to be the lynchpin of a very dangerous plot to expose a Kazon spy, a plan which in all probability would result in him not surviving. He was allowed to be a responsible, trusted senior officer who could take the big chair even in a delicate situation. (Initiations, for a start) All of that went out of the window in 'thirty days' because the writers suddenly chose to make him impulsive, stupid and disobedient, and his character never recovered. In the early seaons he was trusted to lead, or at least be the senior officer in rank, on numerous away missions, wheras after the fifth season he was never let out of the ship without someone more senior to 'keep an eye on him'. In later seasons there were at least two occasions in which he was the ONLY officer not present at an important breifing. Now, sure, he MIGHT have been holding the fort on the bridge, but we don't know that. We were never told, for example, in Good Shepard why he was the only senior not present at the efficiency review. If we had seen the Captain Proton and Fair Haven holoprograms in conjunction with the kind of on duty senior officer behaviour he was allowed to exhibit in the early seasons, I doubt that most people would have thought of them as 'juvenille persuits'. But because it was ALL we saw of Tom during that time, there was nothing to balance it out and tell us that, yes, he was still doing a responsible job, controlling his department(s), etc etc, but that this was his way of kicking back, having fun. It DIDN'T make him a child, any more than watching Star Trek every week makes us children, much though many people around us might like to claim it does. I don't consider that a man becoming a husband and father is the only possible measure of maturity. Sure, it's one measure of maturity, but in my opinion, Tom lost far more than he gained with that piece of character assassination called 'thirty days'. Cheers Begonia. Wow, very well put Begonia. You are absolutly right about Tom and I agree with you completly. What a shock! Okay, I am one of the resident Tomaholics too, we all know that. I did appreciate Biller's take on Tom this year. That is probably because Braga had done such damage to the character that any improvement was welcome. I, to this day, refuse to watch "30 Days" again. For a variety of reasons. One of the problems I had with it was that fact that they thought they were giving us some Father/Son resolution. There was nothing even remotely resolved with that episode. Of course, the only reason that episode was made was because Braga wanted to demote someone because it hadn't been done before. Now, there is a reason to write a story. It certainly flows naturally out of the characters doesn't it. Which character? Does it matter? The characters didn't matter to Braga, they were a means to an end. I also never watch, even in the reruns with nothing else on, any episode where Tom is an ensign. But then, they're not interested in me anyway. Too old, too female. Shadda Re: being children for watching Star Trek each week I don't think people consider us immature for watching Star Trek ... I think they just don't understand why we do. Until 6 months ago I was one of those people too, but I've seen the error of my former ways! But seriously, some of my friends had a really bad reaction to it ... one girl pulled her car over and threatened to chuck me out. She wasn't serious but she meant it ... if that makes any sense. Another one of my friends trys to talk me out of it every time he see's me. It's all meant as joking around ... but it's a little escessive!! Everyone have their tastes <shrug> Icheb/Naomi maybe squicky to you, but I don't see anything wrong with them, given their interaction in "Shattered". Each person sees what each sees in the characters. IMO, I just see them as a likely pair if Voyager spent 16 additional years to return to Federation space. I guess besides Mirel Paris, some other children would be born during those years, and given that Naomi is far older than Mirel (physical years, not chronological), I can't see Naomi either going for a far younger boy or for a far older man (meaning any of the men of the Voyager crew), so that leaves Icheb. I agree that in the new timeline that even if Naomi marries the same person (whether it's Icheb or another person), Sabrina might not physically be the same girl, for she might be born earlier or later than the Sabrina of the old timeline. So yes, Sabrina of the old timeline may truly not exist at all, but nevertheless, she still might exist, just in a different way. Before "30 Days" even aired, I placed Tom in my J/P fanfics as a matured, responsible officer, given how much he has done as you described. I went to my tape of "Good Shepherd", and I saw that Tom indeed wasn't even presence for Seven's efficiency report. Why? Because his department was 100% efficient that he didn't need to attend? Or was that Tom really wasn't a member of the senior staff despite still being chief pilot? It amazed me that Robbie himself thought the demotion would have given Tom much more to work, instead he was given even less, thus Robbie suffered even more when it came to his character's development. Take Tom before "30 Days" in 5th Season. He was shown to be a good officer, for he led the design and construction of the Delta Flyer, was a good officer when the Flyer crashed, and even wasn't afraid to speak his mind when it came to B'Elanna's life. After "30 Days", he was shown a wimp! I'm not talking about "Bride of Chaotica", for that show the playful side of Tom, which every adult haves. I'm talking about times when Tom doesn't act like a good officer or even say things to show a good officer. For example: In "Blink of an Eye", he keeps persisting that Voyager should contact the aliens, despite the aliens' tech wasn't high enough to warrent first contact. He was given a bad view when he said to open fire on the aliens (during the alien attack) when it was obviously, as Chakotay said, that Voyager has done enough damage to the aliens. How bad can one get, uh? And despite his good 'relationship' manners in "Gravity", he was bad when it comes to anything else - hunting, and other stuff. Prior before "Unimatrix Zero", I can only think of one time Tom performed as the officer he was before "30 Days" and that was in "One Small Step". He did pretty good taking over command of the Flyer after Chakotay became incapacitated. This was the Tom Paris I enjoyed before "30 Days" downgraded him. Re: This year Tom stopped playing games I understand what you are saying. And it makes a heck of a lot of sense. First "Thirty Days" I wasn't all that fond of that episode until I saw "Pathfinder." It was then I remembered he hasn't heard from his dad in four years because the letter never got through in "Hunters." But he wrote that letter in "Thirty Days." And finished it. And prepared it for transmission when they got back to Earth. He was taking a big step in attempting to resolve a relationship that has plagued him all his life. The demotion sucks, but I liked the route they took as a result. And I also liked that they didn't try to rush and tidy it up at the end either. That would have been unrealistic. The hesitant glances and the Admiral's "I look forward to it" while looking at Tom (go Richard Herd) was a nice glimpse that things would work out but not by an abrupt ending. As far as season 7 Tom... Tom's confrontation to the Doc in "Author, Author" really got me thinking about this. I think I was trying to describe an impression I got this season, a mood, feeling, a sentiment, I am not even sure how to describe it... his aura maybe? I was just struck by Tom in a way this year that I wasn't before. Kind of like when you realize that boy you grew up with isn't gross anymore. Not that I EVER thought TOM was gross, but that is the only way I can think of to describe it. Maybe when you think that friend of yours could be more than a friend is a better way to describe it... the maturity clicks in a way in hasn't before, tis there, its real, he wants it, he's not acting, not playing the game Maybe that's it? He was playing the game because there was nothing else to do, he lost in 30 days, wrote the letter, heard from his dad and made the genuine turn around and got everything in order because he wanted to not because it was part of the role, or the game. Does that make sense? I don't know. This is the first time I have ever tried to describe my understanding of Tom and I am feeling very inarticulate right now; it is frustrating me. Does anyone understand what I mean? "I do". Understand, Janey. D47 Thank goodness... I was beginning to confuse myself! that is scary!
Janey But Tom had already "turned around" He pretty much did that in the first episode when he went after Harry and went back to get Chakotay. As Begonia pointed out, he was far more mature in seasons 1-3 then he was in seasons 5 & 6. Why did he suddenly regress? There was no reason for it, and if anything 30 days should have had the opposite affect on him. Yes, in season 7 there was a difference, but he was a great deal more like he had been in the beginning. His arc, or what ever you want to call it, really didn't exist. He changed, but all in one season and it was so abrupt that you could get whiplash watching him. He went from mature, to juvenile, to mature. It didn't make sense. While you were falling in love with the Klingon Princess, I was falling in love with the Pilot Extrodinair. I felt if 30 days was supposed to be about Tom wanting to reconnect with his father, they went about it completely wrong. And where did they get the whole, "you never finish anything"? Especially just a few episodes after he built the Delta Flyer, after trying and trying and trying to get it built. Boy, it took persistance to get that thing up and running, to keep after people to get it built and then all of a sudden he is someone who never finishes anything. I can't think of a single thing he didn't finish. He was cashiered out of Starfleet. That is not exactly not finishing. He was arristed while in the Maquis. That is not exactly not finishing. What hadn't he finished? This thread is getting so long, it's going to need it's own zip code soon. Shadda Shadda, did you know that the "letter to dad" in 30 Days was for filler. The entire episode had been shot. When viewed after the editing, it ran 10 minutes short, so TPTB quickly wrote the "letter to dad" story. Without it, the entire story would have been meaningless. IMHO, this was the first strong Tom episode since Caretaker, and I loved every minute of it. Di Member of Tom-A-Holics I love it too, Di, and I found it plausible that Tom would also love sea-lore. NIM Isn't it scary that the best bit of the episode was an afterthought? Like Di, I quite like "Thirty Days"... in spite of the fact that I think it did Tom no favours whatsoever in the long run, so far as character development - or visibility within subsequent episodes - was concerned. But it was one of a very very small handful of Tom solo episodes, and it was much stronger in story terms by the time they'd finished juggling with it than anything since Caretaker. And, (waving my membership certificate for the Shallow Pool End Society), it had some great Tom eye candy. Wet Tom, trying to mend the leak in the Delta Flyer's hull particularly springs to mind. It looked so good I'm entirely prepared to overlook the fact that that hull should have explosively decompressed under the weight of all that water rather than just trickled fetchingly over Tom's head. I don't actually mind the demotion storyline itself, but I feel that it was unforgivable in terms of the follow up it didn't get. Despite the fact that the demotion itself ran for a season and a half, there was no opportunity taken to return to the theme and see how it had affected Tom's life, or what he felt about it. And I really disliked the casual nature with which he got re-promoted. It seemed quite as arbitrary as the demotion itself, in that there was no more examination of why he should suddenly get his rank back than there was about why he should lose it when other people - Chakotay in "Manoevers", Tuvok and B'Elanna in "Prime Factors", Harry in "The Disease" - didn't lose theirs. But, darn it, pet peeves aside I still like a lot of things about the episode itself, even if I don't like how it fits into the wider context of Voyager as a whole. I still find it a sad commentary on the series though that it never managed to make a better Tom episode in seven seasons than the very first one, "Caretaker". Jules Re: I love it too, Di, and I found it plausible that Tom would also love sea-lore. NIM Yes, Tom would be the type to love the sea. It goes along with the Hortiao Hornblower personality. The only thing I didn't like was pulling this trate "Out of the Hat," kind of like the Chakoaty/Seven romance. The theme of his loving the sea only played for this one episode, it was never mentioned again, dropped like a "Hot Potato" then thrown away. If we ever see Voyager again, I bet C/7 will have been forgotten, also. Di INVESTIGATIONS? I rather enjoy that one. Love the Neelix hug, and the transporter goodbye...and maybe im crazy but Ive always thought Raphael Sbarge (the traitor and Seska-conspirator) is pretty cute. I really like THIRTY DAYS...though Stanford from SEX AND THE CITY is miscast as the Monean with conscience. I love the Janeway-Paris discussion of Captain Nemo..i love the scene where B'Ellana, still smarting from NOTHING HUMAN, encourages Tom to disobey the Cap's orders...i also LOVE the Away Team of Tom, Harry, and Seven. I would almost go far enough as saying that THIRTY DAYS is a great ep--surely the best Tom ep, at any rate. The best he looked, all S5, too! david g It's a Neelix episode And was actually intended to be even more of a Neelix episode than it eventually ended up. Apparently someone (quite rightly) hit the roof when they discovered that the Bad Paris arc had been wrapped up in a story he only appeared in peripherally, and a lot of the Tom-as-hero scenes got filmed as an afterthought. I too like the touching little scene in the transporter room. I also (as you know) agree that Tom looked pretty good in "Thirty Days". I would maintain that he looked even better in "Bride Of Chaotica!" though. That astonishingly severe haircut he was sporting in "Thirty Days" had had time to grow out a little by then, and also... black and white is very flattering to people of a certain colouring. Both Tom and Kathryn look sensational in their holodeck scenes. Jules Re: Forgetting C/7... Well, if we follow the "tried and true" Trek rulebook... C/7 WILL be forgotten, never to be mentioned in "canon"... again. Anyone else remember the Troi/Worf romance at the end of TNG... that segued into absolutely NOTHING in the followup movies... and into Worf/Dax in DS9? Or, for that matter, the little thing called Picard/Crusher... which finally gave us one chaste kiss in the finale of TNG... along with a failed marriage and then NOTHING in the followup movies, as Picard gets slimey with the Borg Queen and then becomes enamored with a woman old enough to be his great great great great great grandmother? Yeah... C/7... a bone to the actor's ego... never to be mentioned again.
D47 You're right, that is typical. Of course that whole bad Paris arc was done so badly. They should have let us in on it from the beginning. What wonderful angst we could have had. What wonderful scenes between Janeway and Tuvok, questioning their decision not to tell Chakotay. Just short little snippits. There could have been a great angst fest with Tom and Kathryn and maybe even Tuvok. The original idea to go undercover, what a great scene that would have been. We didn't need to know until the end that it was Jonas, we could have found that out with everyone else. Geez, they try an arc then they screw it up. Arrrgg. How frustrating. Tom did look great in Bride of Chaotica. That is another epiosde that would have been better if it had taken place before the demotion. I really had a problem with the comradarie between Janeway and Paris just one month later. Just didn't ring true. Perhaps I carry a grudge too long, but after all, Paris still hated his father, after all these years. He is not immune to grudges. Tom did look good in most of season 5. Too bad it didn't help much in the old storyline or character development department. Actually, that black and white helps Seven too. All three of them Janeway, Paris and Seven are greatly helped by the black and white look. Shadda Yep, I knew. I just thought the letter should have been more Tom saying, hey now "I understand you more Dad", instead of "you just don't understand me". Afterall, at that time there was no link to the Alpha Quad. Tom didn't think his dad would read that letter for another 40 years. I just didn't like the demotion. I never will. I could have gone with the 30 days in the brig, but the demotion? No! I will never like that part of it and that was the whole point of the episode. It just goes to show you. If you do something for no good reason except that it hasn't been done before it generally doesn't work out all that well. That was Braga's entire impetus for the episode. I will hate him forever for that. Okay, that's not entirely true, I don't think that much about him to hate him. Shadda I dont mean to step all over your feelings, Shadda, but I like the demotion The demotion shows that these characters are NOT fixed and static--things happen to them that have consequences. Now the prob was that the demotion was NOT followed up on, i think, and there I totally agree with you. ALICE could/should have been the re-promotion ep--how would that have worked out, i wonder? david g Love your version, Shadda, but I remember the huge impact the fight... on the bridge btwn Tom and Chak had on me. Tom looks at Janeway and says, "CAPTAIN!" and Janeway staunchly says, "Dont look at me Mr Paris--Mr Chakotay has complete discretion in this matter." I found the scene really powerful and it's one of the scenes that got me hooked on the show. david g Most kidding aside, that's a good point Deb. And I'm glad about it. Except for the endless hours of ranting enjoyment this finale fling has given me on line. I wonder what happened to Ezri and Julian Re: Love your version, Shadda, but I remember the huge impact the fight... Shadda is right, there were some wonderful missed opportunities in this. I always wanted to see what happened when the door closed on Tom and Tuvok in the turbolift just after Janeway had sent him to the brig. It would also have been the perfect moment, dramatically, to bring the audience into the conspiracy, by making clear that the entire previous scene had been improvised by Tom, built on by Janeway (a lovely bit of one taking the cue from the other and running with it), and observed with interest by Tuvok, who would presumably wonder if things had gone a little too far with Tom shoving Chuckles halfway across the bridge. Some lovely set pieces in that scene, too, particularly the silent exhange between Tom and Janeway as she sent him down to Deck 9! Begonia. Fight? You call that a fight? Heck, that push wouldn't have drawn a foul in full-contact tiddlywinks. Ah, but disagreement is one of the things that makes this board so interestng. Especially, polite disagreement. So I will now politely disagree with you There are so many ways they could have a shown that the characters are growing and their status is changing. The one thing that springs to mind would have been to promote Harry. That would have been a much better way to show change and certainly made more sense. If you think about it it would have been a great deal more logical to promote Harry then to demote Tom. They had already shown change in the previous seasons. Tuvok got promoted, Neelix and Kes broke up, Tom and B'Elanna started dating. The demotion was, in fact, the beginning of the static condition of the characters. None of the characters, except Seven and Doc, grew or changed from that moment on. There was nothing until season 7. When Biller finally took over we did suddenly start having the rest of the characters change and grow. A demotion is only one way to show that characters are not static. It, in fact became a glaring beacon that proclaimed "The characters on this show are not in the least changed or affected by the things that happen to them." The "consequences" are so transient and brief as to not be noticed. They are to be assumed? Well, we all know what assume does. Also, the demotion reflects so badly on Janeway. She is such a poor leader that everyone disobeys direct orders. Not the way I want Janeway to be remembered or written. Shadda Fights arent always PHYSICAL, Terry! More of a tantrum than a fight. But wasn't that always the way when Tom and Chakotay had a disagreement? They instantly degenerated to schoolyard behaviour. It would certainly have been interesting to see the whole Paris Bad Boy arc turned on its head, so that the audience was in on the conspiracy along with Tom, Janeway and Tuvok and the leak to the Kazon was the mystery instead. Apart from anything else, it would have had the potential for much greater dramatic impact. We already knew that Tom's behaviour was bizarre and didn't ring true, and it was easy enough to speculate about why he might be behaving that way, particularly because we also knew about Jonas. (I guessed what was going on in "Dreadnought", when Tom-as-jerk dropped out of character when Janeway ordered the evacuation of the ship. The malcontent seemed too eager to stay and play hero himself.) But if we'd known the dangerous game that Tom was playing, but the identity of the traitor had been concealed instead, we could have had several episodes of examining crewmen who were red herrings before revealing the guilty party to be Jonas in "Investigations". It would have had much more impact, I think. Jules Can you imagine how interesting if we had wondered if it was Carey? This was a case of not giving the audience credit for having a brain or wanting to play along. How fun the discussions would have been as everyone gave their opinion on who it was. How much more poigniant those little scenes would have been, like the one between Tom and B'Elanna where he tells her how well she is fitting in. Gosh, I get weepy just thinking about it. So many scenes would have had so much more impact. Details, details, details, God is in the details and they will make or break you. Shadda I must be the only one but I enjoyed the bad Paris arc. I thought it was rather bold of Piller to make one of the regular (and favorite) characters start doing things that made the audience uncomfortable. Replacing it with a who's-the-spy arc seems rather timid in comparison. From what I've read, some people figured out the ploy early on and others just got angry at the change in Paris' personality. Actually, I wasn't committing a lot of attention on the show at that time so I can't quite remember what my feelings were during the arc. But hindsight, I believe that I rather enjoyed one of the crew acting selfishly and insubordinately. Watching the perfect Starfleet professionals at work can get boring. The Maquis are no relief because they are dedicated in their own cause. I figured that as long as Paris has to eventually face the music for his actions, I don't mind seeing him fleecing suckers in his lotteries and insulting his superior officers. It was obvious from scenes like in Dreadnought that Paris was still basically a decent person but that he was unhappy. It could have been a good opportunity for Paris character's to change and grow. And even to open up more about his "issues" (Caldick Prime episode, baby! I liked the idea; wasn't happy about the execution Too often the "Bad Paris" scenes in those episodes felt a little bolted on, as if the episode had been written deliberately short and then they'd inserted it as an isolated subplot. It's not seamless, and the Paris moments don't easily arise out of whatever else is going on in the episode. So I was a little disatisfied with that. I'll agree with you that some of those doubts seemed very much in character for Tom though, and it gave a renewed sense of how difficult it might really have been for him to get the rest of the crew to forgive and forget his past transgressions, particularly the Maquis. Other than that... I actually like the idea of the subplot either the way it was written, or as we've been discussing here where the audience is let in on the secret early. (Although, maybe, they could have been left to wonder for a few episodes before having the truth revealed. My ideal scenario would have Paris acting oddly and Janeway, Chakotay and Tuvok slightly concerned about evidence that there might be a traitor at work, without initially revealing either why or who.) My major disatisfaction with it is that, though the plot idea seems to be Paris-centric, there really wasn't an awful lot of concentration on Paris in any of the episodes that it played out in. And, since this was in a season that didn't seem particularly Paris-heavy in any case, that was maybe an oversight on the part of TPTB. But think of my opinions on the subject as just me itching to go back to the basic material and improve upon what was already there - remember our Episode Reclamation projects a few seasons back? - rather than thinking that it was completely irredeemable in the first place. Jules Which ep did Tom tell B'Elanna she was fitting in well, again, Shadda? NIM Shadda and Jules, youve convinced me the arc shoulda been rewritten to let us in on it But I am still grateful we got it, anyway! david g I'm not Shadda, but didn't he suggest that in... "Dreadnought"? D47 Yep. That was it. Looooove that scene. Ah, but you do such a great Shadda Thanx for answering for me. Shadda Yeah, but I still haven't convinced you about "30 Days" Do you like GRAVITY, Shadda? (Deb, why dont you like it?) Deb, you said GRAVITY gave you the blahs recently. Shadda, Im wonderng if yo like GRAVITY? i always thought it was a fine ep, probably the best Tuvok ep after MELD, except for the awful, awful Lori Petty as Noss. I like the T-P scenes. That scene at the end was very moving (Tuvok linking with Noss to let her know he cared for her, too). david g Hey, I LOVED Tom as James Dean, Marlon Brando, Sal Mineo, Perry King, et.al! (nim) Terry, I too loved Paris as the redeemable bad boy It, at the least, gave him "real" character. I wish TPTB would have continued his character down this path, making mistakes, then learning from them. This should have been an arc that was dragged out over several years, like Torres'. Oh, what could have been. Di Hey, I love Tom the redeemable bad boy Paris. The lack of that is what I complain about constantly. Well, not constantly. By season 4 he should have not been making as many mistakes, as an arc would have shown. Characters can't keep making the same mistakes, it gets annoying. Kind of like the doc's character. I liked the fact that they did a Paris bad boy arc, they just should have done it the right way. Or at least what I consider to be the right way. Certainly, everyone has their own opinion Shadda What are you rebelling against, Tom? (NIM) Re: Do you like GRAVITY, Shadda? (Deb, why dont you like it?) It had it's moments. I did have a few problems with it though. I thought Tom should have been more sensitive to the fact that Tuvok is a Vulcan. They always forget that he was raised in a Starfleet family with a rigid father. Knowing about the different species that the Federation deals with all the time would be very important in his household. He should have recognized that Tuvok would not be able to fall in love with Noss. The argument should have been about letting her down gently, something Tuvok should have been capable of. At that point Tuvok's true feelings could have been revealed and that would then explain why he wasn't as gentle as he could have been. Another thing that annoyed me, and it is a small thing but it is all about details, was Tom not being able to catch the spiders, or what ever they were. Tom is Voyager's best pilot. In order to be a great pilot, your reactions must be very quick. He probably has the best reaction time of anyone on the ship. Why couldn't he react fast enough to catch the spiders? It is an inconsitancy that bothered me. It's another one of those examples of sloppy writing. They wanted to make a joke at Tom's expense, something they did a lot of in seasons 5 and 6 and so they simply forgot an integral part of his character. Of course, they did the same thing to Tuvok and Harry those seasons. The three of them were the butt of most of the jokes. Shadda I believe part of GRAVITY's problem was how it handled the time differential. From what I remember of initial comments, many viewers weren't immediately aware that much more time was passing on the planet than back on Voyager. And that Tom and Tuvok *weren't* aware of the differential. Thus, those two had been stranded for months and thought the same time had transpired aboard the ship. It was therefore quite a reasonable assumption on their part that Voyager must have exhausted all avenues of rescue without success and reluctantly continued homeward without them. But the writing and direction made the time differential point confusing. Among other things, I remember several math errors. But more importantly, I don't think the show gave the viewers the sense of a lot of time passing and a sense of the castaways' acceptance of their fate. It would have made a lot more sense for Tom to be encouraging Tuvok to get together with Noss if it was clear all three *knew* they would spending their entire lives on the planet alone. GRAVITY does do a good job of showing the whole staff working to solve the prob B'Elanna gets more time and does more important stuff than Seven here, and Chak also seems fully involved, and Harry gets to tell off an ugly AOTW. I dont LOVE the way Tom is written here but i kind of like him being the pusher and the prodder...i think this is best seen as a solid Tuvok episode. Tim Russ also looks his most attractive, incidentally. david g Whaddya got? the best thing about gravity was the unspoken love stories the fire scene where Tom mentioned Belanna, although he never said the words "I lover her" was heard pretty clearly. The same for Tuvok logical or no that man loved his wife. | ||
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![[The Voyager Crew]](../images/voyager_crew.jpg)
NIM
I predicted at least two or three years ago that Voyager would get home in the last five minutes of the very last episode. And I predicted months ago that B'Elanna's baby would be born in that same five minutes.
), more cheerful (!) clothing, 24th century health and a healthy dab of sunshine, I threw this pic together.
Harry looked VERY fatigued.
)
the episode (NIM)
But that really bugged me (as if you couldn't tell).