The Coffee Nebula Board is for the discussion of Star Trek: Voyager and other sci-fi/cult shows. This is its Archive of episode discussions, top ten lists, fan fiction, and other miscellaneous musings.
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"Who would have thought that this eclectic group of voyagers could actually become a family. Starfleet, Maquis, Klingon, Talaxian, hologram, Borg... even Mr Paris." |
EndgameEndgame: Discussion Area If anyone is in town. Mac. Break Number 1 Ok, someone tell me how to stop my wife from blubbering. The minute Janeway kissed Tuvok on the head the tears were pouring. Women! Mac. 8 to 8:20 A+ Re: Break Number 2 Pat says, "It's my birthday and I can cry if I want to..." Boooooohaaaaaa awesome so far. Part II. A++ Break Number 3: 8:56 and all is welllll Except wife is blubbering again. Bllllllaaahhhhhh I hate Chakotay and Seven. B+. Would have been an A+ without the stupid C/S. Die Chuckie Die! Mac. Re: Break Number 4: 9:09p Chiiiilllllller! A+ Alice Krige! Booohahahaha! I'll give it a solid B+ for this segment. It's a little too convenient at this point, the meeting of the Janeways, etc. Besides, the wife was dry-eyed. That means, B+. Mac. Re: Break Number 5: 9:21p A solid A. Only brought down because Chuckie is such a dork. Mac. That's it??? BAH HUMBUG! Great right up to the last minute. I wanted to see more Alpha Quad interaction. How about Kim doing a little dance for crying out loud. BAH! I feel cheated. Otherwise, excellent (except for the C/S stuff). Mac. If I hadn't been spoiling... ...and I hadn't heard the reviews mention the "truncated" ending, I'd be screaming in mortal agony right now. AGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!! Ahhh, guess I needed that anyway. I'll be back for more comments (must walk poor doggie, who's waited a bit too long), but for now--Yep, I liked it. Hated the truncatd ending (just one less C/7 friggin scene would have allowed at least a walk-through reunion, for heaven's sake), but the rest of it was superb. I much prefer Krige as the BQ--she's simply perfect. Admiral Janeway was right up there, and...well, my dog's still waiting. (grin) Have a few other nits, some coulda/shouldas (more if I thought about it--especially concerning that VERY brief glance at Miral...agggh!), but overall, it was a great ending. More later. Re: Endgame: Discussion Area I just watched but I'm not sure what happened? How did they blow the sphere up and were they inside it? If so, how did they get in there? ENDGAME Wow. Not really sure what to say, but this is it! What a weird feeling. I can't really comment on the episode as a whole yet. Part of me feels that it was rushed and a little under-developed. Too many gimmicks and not enough getting to the heart of Voyager. I have to say, I feel slapped by the ending. Or lack of one. The other Trek shows had beautiful endings that took you out of the series. This ending was nothing special and could have been supplanted wholesale from episode 161G. Okay-- I know there is no such thing, but the whole point was that it was a standard issue ending cutaway shot. That's it? That's a big disappointment. BIG. The episode had definitely had its moments but I would have hoped for things to be wrapped together in a tighter story. I'm really not sure right now! That's all I can say. What a weird feeling-- end of Voyager! Strange. Jason Yeah, Nicoli's still waiting... ..., but I have to say, Mac, you mirrored my feelings exactly! ...Though, I also sniffled a little to see Adm. Janeway kiss Tuvok's head. It'll really get me when I watch that one again. Okay, okay! Getting leash!
What, no long awaited reunions with family and friends? No long awaited meeting between father and son Paris? No long awaited meeting between Harry Kim and family? I could go on, and on... And why was Philips still in the opening credits if we didn't even get a camero? What do little chicks say? 'Cheap' 'Cheap' Yeah, they were in it. That's definitely the impression I got. But for a moment they had me thinking that the twist ending was that the ship really wasn't getting home. At least, now. Did they have the going in, just in case? It was confusing? And what exactly happened to the Queen? It was really all mashed together, a bit, I think. Jason Re: Ethan Phillips was in the epidode, talking with 7. Mr Mac and D'Alaire, agreed! The last five minutes are just...so...blank. And C/7 now really allows me to dislike Chak, at last (though not Seven, whom Ive always loved, anyway, and who comes off well in C/7, paradoxicially)... But everything else...MAGNIFICENT! VOY Rules! david g I think we ALL wanted more. Even another thirty seconds to have some great, closing to Voyager would have been nice. I would have been thrilled to have a shot of Voyager, dropping into Earth orbit until becoming too small to be recognized, something in the tradition of the way the other Trek series ended. That end, though! I'm not sure what to say! Jason A Magnificent Finale Yeah, there were some major disappointments. The last five minutes cauterized my emotions. But for right now--I must say, this was a magnificent ending to VOY. Not everyone will like this ending, particularly not people whove been unhappy with Braga-movieish VOY sensibility. But I found this ending superbly epic. It's DARK FRONTIER or TIMELESS with Janeway at the true center. A Janeway fanatic like me could only be i heaven. Let me just say, everything involving Mulgrew (at her finest), Krige's BQ, Seven, Doc, and Harry was marvellously well done. Being inside that nebula is the most collosal and epic feeling ever captured by a Trek episode. There's so much to say. But for right now, despite its flaws--which, much as I respect him, are just as much indicative of the Biller as they are of the Braga sensibility--this was a magnificent and gripping finale that left me wanting more. david g Must've happened when I left the room. Apparently it was brief. I was only gone a few seconds. Still, I would've liked to have seen family reunions though. I mean that is what everyone has been waiting for for the past seven years. The show ended 4 min earlier than usual--I was at least expecting them to show more previews of Enterprise; and what about Sisko? Re: Endgame: Discussion Area My impression was that Voyager made a "left turn" into a conduit leading to the Delta Quadrant, then made a quick, off-camera Uturn and followed the Cube into the Alpha Quad. I did wonder how the Cube exploded, but that may be a result of Admiral Janeway's virus. Will have to watch this again to get a better idea of what happened and how. it's the Biller sensibility He's a deconstructionist at heart...look at the end of FACES. so ambiguous. the end of TUVIX is the same...that's the Biller touch, ambiguity. Now, I too wanted more--from the very end. But what came before it was FANTASTIC!!! truly. the last scenes btwn Admiral Janeway and Krige's fabulous Borg Queen were for me the high point of VOY (ok, one of them!). david g "Magnificent" if it had been your normal Nov or Feb sweeps event The FX was superb, Crige(sp?) as the BQ puts Tompson to shame. But the episode felt more like a two hour sweeps event than the series finale I was expecting. I have the feeling that some scenes near the end were cut for whatever reason. The finale left so many unanswered question involving the crew that a Voyager movie, whether it be tv or cinema, is a must. If not a lot of fans will be very disappointed. However, Voyager fan fic will be a booming business. BWA! To say I disagree is putting it mildly. That's a Bragaesque ending if I ever saw one! The Closure Queen knows it for having screamed her lungs out at it many, many times before. Just when I thought we'd fully agreed, D'Alaire! NIM now they can stop beating the dead horse that is Seven of Nine. Okay, there were some marvelous moments. False labor. "You're going to kiss your baby with that mouth?" Basically any scene with Tom & B'Elanna was wonderful. I loved Harry's speech. Admiral Janeway's confrontation with the Borg Queen (and Alice Krige was great!) kept me spellbound. The admiral taking up coffee once more. B'Elanna in the future, and Miral. Wow, the actress is a dead ringer for RD. As always, Tim Russ turns in a stellar performance. But, but, BUT! Why were we forced to endure that drek that was Seven and Chakotay trying to have a romance? It was nauseating! It was more of the Seven, Seven, Seven, must have more Seven syndrome that we so often see, and it was so annoying! So Seven has her cortical node neutralized. That's good. Was there any reason we HAD to have that scene where the Doc humiliates himself other than to show how desirable her Borgness is? And of course Seven's death would have such an impact upon the crew... *sob* yeah right. For the past few days, I've seen that UPN promo "Seven of Nine is going to die," so many times and it just made me angrier each time, knowing that they were TAUNTING me with it. And Seven gets the only scene with Neelix. We couldn't see Naomi talking to her godfather? We couldn't see him with B'Elanna, who he was also close to? Or Tuvok, for cryin' out loud? And the ending, oh don't even get me started! Was it too much to ask that we even see a reunion with families? What am I saying, of course it is, these are the same writers who wouldn't even give us a shot of Tom and B'Elanna together with their newborn daughter. If this were any other episode I wouldn't be so disgusted. But it wasn't -- it was the LAST episode, and I expected more and better. But over the last few years I've learned that TPTB couldn't give a darn about what people want to see. I read a fanfic on a Voyager list today, and in the disclaimer, the author wrote that the fans have always cared more for the characters than TPTB. She's right. AC You nailed it, AC. Perfectly said, all around. I will have my own little list of nits and all my comments probably by tomorrow. But, oh, how well you put a few of both categories. And just a little montage would have been nice, you know? Just a little bit, to let us say goodbye to the characters... Oh, best I don't get started, either. I am trying to look more at what I like, after all, instead of those last thirty seconds.... Stopping now...for now. First Impression Future: Now we know what the third temporal incursion is that Braxton said Janeway was responsible for. Good to see Barclay finally got promoted, as well as Harry. Continuity between series! Federation Ambassador to the Klingon Empire is a Klingon (or part Klingon) with ties to Earth (K'lar, Worf, Torres). Of course since they got back in 7 years, not 16, this is all subject to change, depending on the whims of TPTB and the imaginations of fan fic authors. Present: In the conversations about getting home & plans no one said anything about being worried about their status, and several of B'Elanna's comments (piloting assignment, Starfleet Medical) seemed like she assumed she and Tom would still be in Starfleet. Some of those communications from home must have included the resolution of the Maquis question, including reinstatement for Torres, Paris & Chakotay. Another thing it would have been nice if they'd mentioned in passing. Even Janeway participated in the baby pool I know many people prefer Alice Krigg, and she certainly was good here, but I like Susanna Thompson's Borg Queen better. I'm not pleased with the C/7 business, but I am glad Seven made the decision to have the doctor fix the fail safe. Didn't make sense that she dismissed the idea before. Ending: As someone who thought they should have gotten home last fall and spent the final season coping with being home I'm certainly disappointed they didn't have some real welcome home scene. At the least couldn't they have had Admiral Paris say hello to Tom? He obviously saw him. The minimal reaction of the bridge crew when they succeeded seemed appropriate; the reality hadn't set in and they were distracted by the baby. the problem with c/7 is that TPTB didn't build it up enough. All of a sudden, we get "Seven and Chakotay are madly in love" with no real substance. Yeah, there were a few episodes earlier, but those two were basically like "Seven wants Chak". Their whole "relationship" smacks of a promo stunt with no thought as to characterization. I hate to say it (I am a diehard fan), but this has always been Voyager's fatal flaw. I'm afraid when it comes to that one thing... ..., we never will. That is one opinion I won't bend on. Ah well. 'Tis the spice of life when used with care, n'est pas? Deb's ending was better... Much better, I might ad. Oh well, what can we expect? It's all par for the course now. Thinking about it from that angle, it was a rather good episode. But not good enough, it appears, for most of us here. Everyone else pretty much has stated what I've thought. C/7 seems way too forced, the whole "save 7" motivation a bit too much, and no welcome home scene made the show rather anticlimatic. But wait, we got a welcome home scene at the beginning of the show. Hmm.... wonder if that was supposed to make up for it. For a moment I thought they'd sacrafice everything and stay in the Delta (Beta) quadrant. After all, we saw a future where they got home, 16 years later. Would have made a nice, chronological symmetry. Of course, that would have caused a temporal loop of sorts... Janeway gets home, goes back in time, gets home, goes back in time... etc... Temporal mechanics, gives me a headache too. Yeah, it does appear the creators care less about the show than the fans. And we get to look forward to "Enterprise." You think it's bad now? Let's see how much continuity they ignore/screw up with this new series (Let's see... A starship named Enterprise that DOES NOT appear on any pictoral display/model display in any Enterprise ready room... A Vulcan serving with Humans at some point BEFORE Spock becomes the first Vulcan in Starfleet (Vulcan must have decided they were tired of serving with Humans).... Wonder if they will have transporters and phasers, despite the fact those things were invented AFTER the formation of Starfleet... Bet the ship looks cooler, neater and more futuristic than any Deadalus Class ship or even the original Enterprise....) Oh well. Star Trek has become "The Gap" of science fiction shows (anyone who has read 'Microsurfs' will understand the reference...) C'est La Voyager. Shawnster Re: C/7 made my skin crawl... and the tinkling piano music that accompanied it made me ill and emphasized how those scenes dragged. And are they trying to suggest that in the end Janeway gets Chakotay only on the rebound because 7 has stepped aside? Or is it 7 Janeway's really after? This whole aspect was very poorly developed and took away from what was, otherwise, a good story. Thank God it's the Endgame.... Because I just can't take it anymore. This show has become a parody of what it once was. Those were not the characters I saw in Caretaker they were cardboard cutouts. But before I get to the bad there were a few good things here and there. One, the bits in the future were fun. Oh sure it was aping the far superior "All Good Things" but it was fun and light. And I enjoyed the spunky Ensign Paris and the FX were just amazing. B'Elanna giving birth was nice and for once Tom with B'Elanna didn't bore me. And...ummmm...Barclay is always fun... *sigh* But the rest? Ugh. It took DS9 a huge multi-part ending to tie up everyone and it still felt rushed. Voyager on the other hand needed a silly Borg padding to fill up two hours. *yawn* So once again the Borg get humiliated to make Janeway look good. And they actually START But I guess they thought we would buy that since Janeway feels the need to break every Starfleet law to save Seven!!!! And HoloDoc working around the clock on a new surgical procedure for....yep....SEVEN. Heck even the Borg Queen wants Seven in her DREAMS. Now why not use some of this glorious Seven footage to tell about the REAL Voyager's return home? Nah. We will just give you a stupid RUN OF THE MILL CUT AND FADE????????????????? No matter what some may have thought of the Pagh Wraith part of WYLB that last incredible pull back with Kira and Jake framed in the window of DS9 was just amazing and my eyes were very watery watching that. All Endgame's ending did for me was urge me to change the channel and watch Farscape. It seems sad but oddly fitting that the FAKE timeline Voyager characters got there stories told but not OUR crew. The REAL crew. Still at least they were there. Poor Neelix and Kes their friends are still stranded in the Delta Quadrant. But at least Neelix got to say goodbye to SEVEN. Kes didn't even show up in a flashback. Maybe it's for the best since she would only get to talk to SEVEN. Goodbye Voyager. You were once a good show but you have worn out your welcome. It's time to give Captain Archer a try. I give it a year before Seven shows up.... Eric Careful Eric; you're beginning to sound like Jan Brady or like Me... Although I'm only an hour in and can already tell you that this is by far the weakest finale. More after the show. I consider it okay. It wasn't great but I don't consider it bad either. The only gripe I have about the future is that they have to make them all look old. Tom, Harry, and B'Elanna are in their 50's and they look like they're in their 60's or 70's. Uh? Gee, most RL people in their 50's sure don't look that old. Kate herself is 46 and I bet wouldn't look so old by the time she's 50. For the likes of me, I like Admiral Janeway. She has the leadership of Captain Janeway. Her sacrifice at the end to make sure Voyager get home early was good. Now whether the Borg truly are gone, that's up to TPTB to decide. We've seen the BQ bite the dust once in First Contact, and yet she came back for Voyager. So the Borg may not be totally out of commision. As for the C/7 stuff, they have no chemistry. It was forced and doesn't feel right. I can't see them as a couple no matter what. As for whether Chakotay and Seven will marry, things might be different now Voyager is home. Admiral Janeway said C/7 married in her timeline when Voyager was still in the DQ. With Voyager home, who knows what future the characters might face now, since the future of Admiral Janeway's no longer exist. Thus the ending isn't so bad as some Shippers claim it to be. They left it open for fanfic writers to take it in any direction now. Scenes I like: 1) Icheb beating Tuvok in tal hoh. I love it! It was amusing to hear Tuvok saying Kim haven't yet won a game against him and to see the next scene showing Icheb, who is ten years younger than Kim, beat Tuvok. 2) Using the pathegone to disrupt the Borg Queen. They didn't say it precisely (I could be mistaken), but I'm guessing that it was the same pathegon that Icheb was born to create. Doc did managed to recreate it in "Collective", so if Admiral Janeway gets infected, she can infect the BQ. Nice use of continuity here. 3) Final scene where Voyager is escorted back to Earth by the fleet. It wasn't the grand homecoming as shown in beginning, but it touching. Voyager is home and surrounded by other ships of Starfleet. As I said, fanfic writers can fill in the possibilities on what happened afterward. Chances are high that Starfleet will pardon the Maquis, give Doc full rights, and welcome Voyager fully home as heros, but one can never know, right? So overall it was an okay finale. Nothing really grand to consider it great per say. I'm giving this a 9 out 10, due to the forced C/7 stuff and the silly way they aged the crew in the future. Actualy i was thinking about you when i was writing that... ...or should i say when i was watching in horror was my fingers started typing away like mad. I actualy loading the Nebula thinking i would try to be nice.....and look what happned. I guess i had a lot of bitterness to get out of my system! Eric At this point, I am extremly disappointed I'm not even sure where to begin. There were a lot of distractions around here in the beginning. They delivered my new van at 6 this evening so I was a bit distracted in the beginning. I said a while back that if the reason Janeway broke the temporal directive was simply to save Seven I would be very unhappy. I am very unhappy. Maybe if more of her senior staff had died, certainly more then 20 people, there would be more justification, but I really don't think so. Seven's death affected two people Janeway and Chakotay. Please, the lives of billions were changed in order to save Seven. Seven, loved most by the Borg Queen, with billions to choose from, loved by Chakotay to the point of dying, loved by Janeway to the point of changing the time line. Oh, PTB, give it up, we are not impressed. You are living in a dream world. As I feared, the last episode was all about Seven. We got no closure, or even a conversation between Paris and Paris. Do you realize with all the Admiral Paris scenes and all the contact between Voyager and the Alpha Quad, not one word between Tom and his father. I told you the one line in Pathfinder was all we were going to get. I hate it when I'm right when I don't want to be. They showed Caretaker the two previous night, they gave us nothing. I suppose the stupid line, "we could live with my parents" was supposed to tell us all we needed to know. We get how many scenes with Seven and Chakotay and we can't even get one scene with Tom and his father. I have to tell you, I left the room when Chak and Sev were on. Can you say boooorrrring. I am going to rewatch a few scenes, certainly not the ones with Seven though. Of course, it should only take me a minute or two to watch the scenes she wasn't in. It's late, I'm tired and disappointed. I'm going to bed. Thank God for West Wing. At least it never disappoints. Shadda My Initial Thoughts Well I'm back again. Its' the final episode so I *had* to make a pilgramge to the Nebula. Wouldn;t seem right if I didn't. Anyway, there are the first thoughts on "Endgame." First things first, The Bad: C/7 was *compleatly* insipid! My God, who *wrote* that "dialouge"? A fanfic writer? They wasted time that could have been spent more on the ending and the crew meating their familes again after *seven years,* with dialouge like: "....but whatever I do, it'll be in transporter range of you."? Oh come *on!* Forget the fact that the two of them involved made no sence up to this point -- who *were* those two people spouting that hackneed stuff? That isn't the Seven and Chakotay I've seen for the past seven (or in Seven's case four) years. And speaking of the ending -- *compleatly* anti-climatic. I think I know what Braga and Co. were going for, but after seven years that is *not* the kind-of payoff you give us. Ending with a long shot of the crew being reunited with their families would have worked *wonders* for the feeling that the ending was too abrupt. The way this ends there is obviously more story to tell. I wanted to cry. I wanted to be really moved after following them for seven years on this jouney. Instead, I'm just sad. (And after the "Buffy" finale last night I was *ready* to cry again for a show I love -- it wouldn't have taken much to give it to me either.) The Borg. They're almost just a plot device now. *yawn* Now, The Good: Admiral Janeway and Captain Janeway -- Kate Mulgrew ROCKS. She made the episode. I've never seen a actress try to out-act herself. Alice Krieg. Good to see her again, though I had hoped for more screen time between her and Kate. The central story -- while derivative of "Timeless" and "Unimatix Zero" -- wasn't bad. They just puts some pointless stuff (i.e., C/7) into it that should have been left out. Tom and B'Elanna. I've never been a big fan of their relationship, but they were really sweet here. Anyway, that's for now. Maybe more later. Carol I don't know where to start... Surprise, surprise...I thoroughly enjoyed it. First: Joe? 33 years to come up with Joe? (I thought CAREY!) My heart lept in my chest when I saw Voyager fly across the San Fran Bay. The beat up coffee mug. Knowing they had a reunion party every year. Admiral Kathryn and B'Elanna's scene: we all know there should have been more of those, "My beloved captain who saved my life on numerous times in glorious battles..." Once again, Tuvok makes me cry. When Kathryn kissed him on the head. When he was freaking about her mysterious disappearance. And he quoted Spock, that was a sweet scene. The Doc and Barcley remain good friends. And Barcley stammers again. And it looks like the Doc and the Admiral stayed close. Guess that coffee in Buenos Aires did wonders. Adored the Captain Harry and Admiral Kathryn scenes: "I can't believe how you've all grown up." "Are you sure I can't talk you out of this?" He gets a classic Janeway look. "Right, stupid question." She touches his face and hugs him good bye. The Admiral drinks tea? KATHRYN JANEWAY gave up coffee? What happend to her? I know I love Captain Janeway but she is a riot as an admiral. Sarcastic as all get out and stubborn as ever. Who did that Klingon think he was dealing with anyway? Speaking of Klingons, Ensign Paris really is her mother's daughter - right down to the eyes cast downward "yes, ma'am." (she sounded just like B'Elanna, in Prime Factors) LOVED the Admiral KJ and Captain KJ scenes: "Seven of Nine dies." "what?" I heard her heart break. "And then there's Tuvok" "What about Tuvok?" "What about the temporal prime directive?" "to hell with it!" And then of course there is the mess hall scene, two Janeways with their brains rollng imbibing coffee - I knew we were in for a wild ride. "Why did I ever give this stuff up?" The Chakotay and Seven thing didn't bother me as much as I thought it would. I didn't like it and I did reflexively gag a few times, I burst out laughing when Seven said she wanted to alter "parameters." I loved the Admiral Janeway and Seven scene in the Cargo Bay. Seven's lucky she got rid of that failsafe, she probably would have gone on the fritz. Speaking of the surgery - I felt sorry for the Doc when Seven turned down his offer for help. But after taht awkward I love you scene last week, and the fact Neelix is giving her tips now, I can't blame her. "I'm talking about the real world. The people you know. Your friends. People who LOVE you." That stabbed me in the heart. Mama wants her baby to make it home. I was more than pleased to see B'Elanna bustling around engineering despite the fact she could go into labor at any moment. And to see her eyes gleam when talking about the armor. The birth scene was not what I feared! No drastic complications. Nice and simple and in time for the arrival in the Alpha Quadrant. The baby's perfect timing may have been a bit cliche, but it worked for me. "Here begins a new life." For all of them. Happy Birthday Miral (did they name her Miral?). Alice Krige. I had forgotten just how creepy she could be. I would have rathered Thompson for old times sake, but Krige gave me chills just the same. What was the queen thinking trying to take on not one, but two Janeways? "It is you who underestimate us." The Borg Queen is dead, long live Janeway. Picard couldn't do it, but Janeway sure as he!! could! GO KJ! Our little Harry grew up a lot didn't he? What a beautiful speech. Only he could make it. "To the journey." My favorite line though? "We did it." Though "Sorry to drop in like this. Next time we'll call ahead." is definately a runner up. I do have to mention that I really enjoyed the grave scene. She knew exactly what he would have told her. And she knows that he would know she'd do it anyway. I love that they brought it back to the beginning, the issue of an idealistic gesture vs the safety of the people you know. I like that the Captain said she did not regret the decision she made seven years ago. I like that the Admiral had to relearn/remember what it was like to be there. I love the undying loyalty of the crew. They arrived in the Delta Quadrant in the near begining of the pilot. I am glad get home at the end of the finale. Would I have liked to see some at home footage? Sure, who wouldn't? But at least this way we can imagine it for ourselves and it can go exactly how we want it. At the end of "The Cloud" Kathryn asks that "some powerful being watch over this good crew" and in the beginning she says she needs to be larger than life and deletes the line where she says she wishes she felt that way. She was the Caretaker. She had to bring them to this end. If ever Janeway was larger than life it was here. There was another way. She knew it. She went after it. She took everything into her own hands and did it the way it should have been done with the added bonus of beating the Borg. Was it just about Seven? I don't think so, though she was obviously a large part of it. Tuvok was a nice hunk as well. Her oldest friend and the young woman who was like her daughter are great incentive. Throw an additional 22 people who didn't have to die? Throw out the rule book and go for a ride - larger than life, larger than death - she was a force of nature. Happy Birthday to me! But what I think I liked best of all is that Kathryn's last line in "Endgame" is the same one as in "Caretaker:" "Set a course...for home." Meanwhile, I am setting a course for Cleveland! Wow, that exceeded my expectations... Unfortunately in the wrong direction. I expected to be entertained and that it would at least go out with a bang. First the good. I liked Tim Russ' performance. Okay now to the rest of it. For me, this episode lacked tension (the only thrilling scene was when VOY just missed the cube), and any real emotional resonance. THe whole Seven is the emotional center of VOY just bit. As creepy as C/7 was (and I thought they were mighty creepy) Doc Joe and Lanna were creepier (Lanna might as have been a recreational hologram; the doc reminds me of a nerd guy who becomes a multimillionaire and goes for the vapid trophy wife), and Janeway/Seven was the creepiest. The way Admiral Janeway was fixated on Seven was trully bizarre, as were all J/7 interactions. I've got to say Admiral Janeway seriously displayed signs of erotomania IMO. 1. Mini- rant. Very superficial. Other creepy things include the aging make-up. Harry is only 22 +33 = 55 and he looks horrible; there is no way in hell a 55-year old Kim is going to look like that. The others (except Janway and Doc) looked just as bad. I may not like Paris and think RDM is not aging gracefully, but thgat maekup I think was extremely unbecoming -- totally creepy. The other thing that bugged me is that B'Elanna is not even a middle aged Klingon and she looked bad, sorry by B'Elanna should not age as poorly as the others. I really resented that the only aging makeup Mulgrew had was the wig, some paddding around her middle and maybe some neck makeup (although given the turtleneck we really can't tell), meanwhile every other orgnic was given serious grey makeup. Janeway must be at least 70, but she looks better than the rest, I think not. 2. Major substantive rant. I CANNOT believe Admiral Janeway's actions. Her actions were completely selfish, and blatantly wrong. Screwing with time is wrong. Starfleeters like police officers, like soldiers, like firefighters know that they have to risk their lives to perform their duties. As Kirk said risk is their business. What if Kirk refused to let the love of his life die? What if Rachel Garret refused to go back to her time knowing that her crew would die? Family doesn't cut it for me. Janeway will have known Seven for seven years assuming Seven died in three years. So that's less than half the journey, what makes Seven more special than any of her other crew. Everything about this stood against basic Trek principles. I have no respect for Janeway. Apparently her arrogance didn't change with age. 3. Magic Technobabble. Loved how everything was solved by technobabble. Seven's chastity belt/cortical node suddenly had a quick fix as did their whole Borg predicament. I wonder how the alpha quad will change thanks to Admiral Janeway's gift of the future tech and then all Borg data Seven has (expect for the convenient memory laspe re the hubs). I've decided that the Relativity had to correct Janeway's incursion, so this is not cannon. 4. No closure for long term stories. We have no idea what happens to the Maquis or any family reunions. I guess we're supposed to be happy with the meager interactions in Author Author that really more for the benefit of Seven than the other charcters. 5. No emotional resonance. When I watched All Good Things and What You Leave Behind I was trully moved and the thing is I didn't expect to be. It took me a very long time to warm to TNG crew. Iactively disliked almost all of them and felt their was no comaderie among the crew at least in the beginning, but by the finale made me see them as family. What You Leave Behind montage literally brought tears to my eyes. It was so moving because these wonderful relationships were ending. With VOY everyone is pretty much an island or only tied with one person. They don't interact with each other as friends as people, I guess to make more screen time for Seven. 5. Borg were again laughable. Oh Seven your my favorite. Yuck. When the queen was falling apart, I thought it was like a B movie. 6. B'Elanna - I hated that Seven was the one to check out and deliver the report on the tech that Admiral Janeway personally developed RE: "Joe" Could the Doctor's name have been a sweet tribute to Joe Menosky? C/7 made my skin crawl too!! That was my only gripe with the finale. Beltran plays Chak with Seven like a leering used car salesman (hey I can stereotype too But it is was minor part of the plot, fortunately. It doesn't compare to the trite (and unluckily major) stupidity of the "red contacts" war between Sisko and Ducat. Heck, you can ff through the "icky stuff" Speaking of Krige, I love her BQ's menacing sexuality... just as much as Thompson's menacing maternity. Of course the menacing question is: who will be the next BQ? I was hoping Adm. Janeway but I assume she got blown up. The good Sheesh! Where to start! First of all I'm mad at one newspaper columnist who said something to the effect that these actors weren't very good. POPPYCOCK! I'll take this cast and replace the entire cast of "Law and Order" any day and they could pull it off. Mulgrew and Dawson can act circles around Angie Harmon, etc. The acting in Endgame was superb! Special kudos to Mulgrew and Russ. This was Russ's best work by far and I can't express enough how difficult it is for an actor to act "against" her/himself in a scene. Mulgrew was just wonderful, especially as the Admiral. She managed to change her character enough to display the differences between the older, wiser (if not still stubborn) Janeway. Janeway in Tuvok's room? Waaaaaa! I cried my eyes out. Now THAT was nice. Alice Krige was nice and chilling although I think Thomson's eyes were creepier. Thomson's head moves were also a tiny more mechanical, which I liked. It gave her a demented off-balance look. Krige was more calculating. That said, they are both fine Borg Queens. I loved to see Ensign Paris. I did predict that we would see this child in the future, but I was thinking more like in a future series! She's got her mother's fire and respect, and I love it! I loved the scene between Janeway and Kim in the shuttle. We can see Kim's growth and Garrett Wang did a fine job there. Now the bad. Like many of you, I really didn't enjoy the mild saturation of Chakotay chasing Seven. He was like a goat in heat. Baaaaaaaaad. This crew is struggling against Borg cubes and he's looking to get into Seven's girdle. Well, where was he looking the other 4-5 years? I think this whole Seven/Chakotay stuff was the one of the two bad mistakes in Endgame. Someone pushed for that relationship and they didn't pull it off in my book You mean to tell me that Janeway never married? All this time she feels guilty about Chakotay dying (of a broken heart. In Deb's words, "Oh puulleezz!) because her decision cost Seven her life and their life together. Another baddie in my book was the initial decision by Janeway that cost them 23 years of their lives. Arrrgg. If I saw 47 Borg cubes and the hive, then I'd run like hell toward the nearest exit to the Alpha Quad. Let Starfleet deal with them. Now didn't Seven say that there were like 6 or 7 of these giant hives? Then what good is destroying only 1! There is a fire in the theater and head for the exit signs. I guess that decision was what prompted Chakotay to pursue Seven. If there were pairing off then we should have seen "Son of Seven," and a few more offspring! The ending! Everything was soooo good up that point and then BANG! Yet another quick ending. VERY anticlimatic. I was stunned as I screamed at the TV, "THAT'S THE ENDING!" I went nuts. Bijou jumped down from my lap and ran away. Like many of you, I was cheated out of closure. BOOOOOO! Why didn't we AT LEAST get Admiral Paris say, "Welcome home, son," or Paris saying to him, "You have a granddaughter!" BOOOOO! Blasted, I'm angry about that. Raspberries to the quick ending. Mrs. Mac Re: I think we ALL wanted more. Isn't it interesting that the worm hole (whatever) to the Alpha Quad just happens to be an arm's length away from Starfleet? Sheesh. Right under their noses! Mrs. Mac Re: The fanfic 'shippers should really go wild with KJ's 23-year year obsession with Seven Fanfic fodder aside, I actually viewed Adm. Janeway's motivations as being more altruistic. That is, she really wanted to get her whole family home faster and intact. I couldn't buy the Janeway (standing-in-for Braga) love for Seven and only Seven bit for a minute. So I didn't, if I was supposed to. And don't anybody give me that "she did it for Chak" bs. But I can see how it would give fanfic mountains of material. All that obsession with Seven (of varying shades, stripes and preferences) I wonder if in the old timeline, over the next three years, we could have had J/C/7 Oops, subject line not exactly a spoiler but just in case I apologize. nt Re: Endgame: Discussion Area Quick thoughts (got a meeting that didn't make it onto my calendar...RATS). I LOVED IT, is the first thing to say! That Janeway in her older years revisited her regrets (I had the idea that Chakotay's death was the trigger) worked beautifully for me. Once again she asked herself, "Was I right to hold to my principles, or was I selfish to 'sacrifice' my crew that way?" - first in destroying the Caretaker's array, then in retreating from the Borg nebula. Oh, yes, quintessential Janeway angst. I loved it that she remembered who she used to be, and then found a way to EXACTLY "have her cake and eat it, too." I didn't want more about the crew members' post-Voyager lives. Oddly enough. The glimpse of Miral Paris was just right. Reg who didn't stammer anymore, who in the crew he helped so much found the acceptance he'd always longed for? Beautiful! As for "truncated ending" - not IMO. The relaunch novelization will pick up the story there, I hope, in Christie Golden's capable hands (since she's the writer providing new material in the same volume with Diane Carey's rendering of the script into prose). I can wait. I was ready to take a deep breath, sigh loudly, and settle back and feel satisfied. My one nit: I didn't like being dumped into the C/7 romance mid-stream. I wanted to see the moment when each realized the other could be a potential lover (and Seven did not show me that in "Human Error," because holo-Chak doesn't count). I wouldn't have minded seeing that "death in her husband's arms" scene, either. Those two missing items would, I think, have given the C/7 parts of the finale a resonance that they would up lacking. Oh, yes. I LOVE Harry with graying hair! Actually I didn't mind it but... I think a much more interesting ending would have been their having to bail out of the Borg transwarp thingy and stay in the Delta Quadrant for another 16 years. Then we would've known what happened to the characters. Now we don't. (Of course I just cheered and cheered because Seven was saved -- NOT) But I didn't mind the approach to earth and the numb disbelief of the bridge crew. The f/x with the sphere were pretty d*mn fine too. Best description of Chak I read yet! "Goat in heat" Krige is marvellous, isnt she? Her amazingly ferocious yet SUBTLE sensuality...she is fierce! Love the BQ-Seven scene, too... Am I the only one who LOVED Adm Janeway v. the BQ? HEAVEN! david g I woke up in deeper love with ENDGAME Esp considering how perfectly it set us up for a movie...someone said GW and TR said at the Trek Experience that VOY will get the next movie? Anyway...ENDGAME didnt give me everything i wanted, and those C/7 scenes are pretty dismal...but it's still magnificent--epic, grand, ambitious, sinisterly sexy, and witty, too. Slyly, the ep offers its most heartwrenching moments right away...and it refuses to make Getting Home the point--the emotional point--of the episode. The emotional climax of the episode is Harry's speech in the conference room. I loved this episode. david g Agree about Janeway and Mulgrew... I loved Adm. Janeway and Janeway vs. Janeway, Janeway vs. BQ. Yes, Janeway-Mulgrew (I won't use the slash Without her wonderfully nuanced acting, I might have really bought into the suggestion that it was about "saving Seven." Funny, I did too! Once I realized I could simply edit out C/7: literally, the "icky stuff" But really C/7 was my only gripe. It was a lot of fun, and had some nice emotional moments too (e.g. Janeway kissing Tuvok) I'm going to rewatch tonight if I can. Harry and KJ too. I think we have to count the silver hair as another of Janeway's more attractive hairstyles. Re: The good I stated before on this board that we would get no real resolution. If it was filmed it was cut for more commercials or for more Seven. If it'd been up to me... (part one) ..., and I only had one precious minute to work with, I'd probably have returned to the reunion in the "adjusted" timeline, maybe a 25th anniversary of their homecoming, if only to see a glimpse of what was gained because of Adm. Janeway's work, and ended on Janeway's toast to her "complete" family. The look on her face, maybe as her crew begins talking/bantering between each other after, would have been perfect. If I only had a minute, I probably would have done at least that, with an underlying version of Voyager's main theme underneath it all as the scene unfolded. It would have been conventional, but it would have at least given some closure. If I had two minutes, then I'd have gone with the montage of the homecoming itself, giving everyone a bit of closure. But that's me. Endgame was a wonderful show. It started out interestingly, showing the crew 25 years ahead, and in a way that makes you wonder, "Well, what so wrong with this?" The crew that did get home did well for themselves, had moved on but still came together when needed. This felt right to me. It's a curious thought, how B'Elanna nabbed a liaison position, though it's a nice blend between risk and challenge, and yet letting her settle into something a little more stable. Tom's career as a writer doesn't surprise me one bit. (Actually, in the "corrected" timeline, I can fully see him being a stay-at-home dad who writes for his outlet.) Harry as a captain...yeah, he'd be a good one. Doc and his "bride"...something bothered me about that one. But I didn't put it past the Doc. The makeup didn't bother me too much at first. I thought Tom looked fine when he was talking to the Doc, but at the other angle, it really came of badly. The coloring wasn't right on his forehead, I think. Maybe the way the lights were hitting the makeup. I actually liked the idea of B'Elanna not dying her hair. For those who say Klingons don't age as quickly, I still recall that she's half-human, too, and that her genes might have leant that way in those respects. Not to mention, her face was still quite well-tended at about 24 + 33 = ~57 years. Kim looked pretty good, IMO, and Janeway looked very good considering the stresses she'd been through. I did love Miral. Her mother's daughter for certain with her dad's quirky mouth and comment--and I'd think his security and assuredness, her mother's offhand protectiveness, helped her demeanor along, too. They did well with her, indeed. I have no doubt about her future, even in the adjusted timeline, especially when Tom later said to B'Elanna in engineering, "Not a chance." Yep, that boy's settled down and sure of it, I thought. No matter where they live, they'll give Miral all the security she needs and be a family. That was good [understatement] to know. Back to the future: Frankly, I didn't mind this future one bit until I saw Tuvok. Janeway's heart literally breaking (and knowing it likely broke every time she saw him) broke mine too. The scene at the grave was touching, too, made me smile to think back on every conversation between J&C. How she could not think of it as fondly as I did was sadly only cursorily explained. "He was never the same after Seven's death" would have been fine with me if I wasn't inclined to ask, "how?" No, we never did get to see that, never got any more explanation than that. The C/7 that began to intrude at that point didn't give me a clue, either. But I'm willing to trust Janeway's perspective, her pent-up motovations and pain. I didn't complain at all how she handled the Klingons--that was nice stuff, indeed, as was the scene before, when she dismissed Miral. Good heavens, did that actress do some B'Elanna homework before she filmed her scenes. So meanwhile, we're getting montages of the time on the "actual" Voyager before the eventful temporal shift (when Adm. Janeway comes through the rift). I really loved the false labor scene--LOL for Tom, and B'Elanna's frustration. "You think it's bad now?" by Doc was perfect. The J/C friendship in the ready room was great and typical, right up to the "raincheck." Totally indicative of their relationship, which is comfortable and intimate, if only as friends. If anything, I like to know they have that much, and they do it well. The C/7 that follows...Well, truth be told, I'd have not minded it if it hadn't been such a focus during the finale, but had been given setup in previous eps so we didn't have to "catch up" with them. No big shock, there. I didn't like or not like it, in all honesty. I didn't feel anything about it, except when the cheesy twinkle music came on and I thought to myself, "And TPTB were worried that P/T would become a soap opera??? They're totally normal and natural! This is blatant!" Still, if we'd been given a minute or two of closure at the end, I wouldn't have cared either way about what they'd chosen to do with C/7. As we didn't get closure, I now mind it very much. It robbed time and distracted. I'd also have liked to have seen, rather than that catch-up, a little more of Adm. Janeway flashing back to what happened on Voyager that brought her to the decision she's making. Seven bites it in the arms of her husband. I would have preferred to have seen that--be shown instead of told. I'd have liked to have seen her discovery of Tuvok's ailment, being finally let in when he crumbles. I'd have liked to have seen the change in Chakotay, instead of a rather unbelievable "he just wasn't the same." Then, they could have gone back to the "present" Voyager, and set up the events to come instead... Oy, I'd have to outline that one to explain the structure well. But that's not to say I didn't like the other scenes there. Tom and Harry's conversation in the corridor in particular was utterly perfect, and, again, beautifully shows the shift in Tom's priorities, his assured family-oriented outlook. It's lovely, natural, a wonderful completion to his personal arc, and made me smile long after the scene ended. Okay, I've finished my coffee. Time for another. And have I mentioned yet how hard I was laughing at all the coffee talk? Wonderful! More soon. Perhaps if we had Krige all these years... The borgs' integrity would still be intact. The POST was right, Mrs. Mac! The ending WAS "truncated." But all in all I LOVED it! It was an absolutely TERRIFIC SHOW (imho)except for that ending....it was as if they ran out of time...I mean, Admiral Paris doesn't even say "hello" to Tom???? We don't get a chance to see Tom and B'lanna together with baby Miral? Worst part....they should have ended as it began, with a shot of VOYAGER doing a fly-by amidst celebration and fireworks. THAT would have been a terrific closure!!!!!!!! Still, it was extremely well-done! Mindy Alice Krige ROCKS!!!! No offense to Suzanna Thompson, whom, as I've said before, is one of the shining stars of ONCE AND AGAIN, but Krige is just such a delicious Borg queen! She was superb! Mindy Ending was abrupt, but.... I'm having trouble thinking of an ending that would have made me happy. The show had to end on how they get home, that much I can see. To show all of the repercussions would have been really difficult in just one episode - like the Maquis issue, all of KJ's prime directive violations, Paris & Paris, etc... I guess I like the montage idea someone suggested, jumping to the future and having a montage of flashbacks that sort of fill in the blanks. Or maybe they could have done the trick from Living Witness, where we see that we are really looking at more flashbacks, and a speaker fills in the blanks for us. I think Living Witness was structured beautifully. Or maybe the episodes leading up to this show could have been after everyone gets home, showing repercussions etc..., and the finale is when the blanks get filled in on exactly HOW they got home. I even liked the court martial of Janeway idea, but I guess that is too similar to the way TNG ended. On the other hand, this episode was too similar to Timeless... I'm so sad this show is over. I love Voyager.... Angela You think??? I dunno, I sort of thought the ending felt so truncated precisely because it went from climax to credits. We see Voyager emerging from the wreckage of the Borg cube into the arms of Starfleet, FINALLY having accomplished their goal - and then credits!! Yes, more coffee!! I am so glad I'm taking a really long weekend but of course I knew I better take this morning off at least, since it was the "big event." More so in the discussion than in the viewing I liked your idea about another shot at the "corrected" reunion. Also agree and am relieved that the Miral's birth was handled so well instead of cheesy as we all feared. If only they had done C/7 well too and not wasted those minutes! Since I'm not an anti C/7'r in principle, I think it could've been done well and consistently with the characters. Although with the lack of chemistry between the two actors.... If... (part two) I know I'm nitting a bit when it comes to the details. I'm detail-oriented, and can't help but think that way. I like balance an closure, too. I will say that balance was there once Adm. Janeway got to Voyager, albeit an foil-type one. Who better to deal with Janeway but Janeway--and each of them talking a little bit from each other as the story between them progressed? Mulgrew did fantastically! Filming all those scenes, one "her" at a time, only shows how extrodinarily talented and knowledgable about her character she is. I loved the similarities, both obvious and subtle, contrasting with the differences. I loved watching Adm. Janeway remember her crew again, and talk about that to Captain Janeway later. Beautiful stuff. Frankly, I can't say enough about the Janeways at work in this ep. Even if I question the admiral's doings--and simply because I didn't get enough of her personal tragedy aside from seeing Tuvok and merely her words on the subject--I thought the way her multi-arc was put across was superb. More, I should say while I'm thinking about it how great all the performances were. Whatever reviewer dissed the acting is an idiot. Simple as that. Moving on (as I do have to get out the door sometime today), I did like the plot twists here, how Captain Janeway got them out of the nebula and dumped her load of bricks on the Admiral. Meanwhile, the Borg Queen a la Krige was simply insidious, delicious, seductive and creepy in a way the Borg haven't been for me for a very long time. Anyone who's heard me griping about Borg overuse knows what a compliment that is. True, they were used as a means to the end, but Krige's performance, too, really made it acceptable. The last briefing room scene was interesting, particularly when we saw Adm. Janeway off to the side, watching the whole thing pan out, seeing "her crew" all over again. The expression on her face really got to me there. And how fitting that she comes to her decision in the mess hall, returning to her beloved coffee as she hatches out her final and revised plan. "Why did I ever give this stuff up?" said more than a world, and I loved it. That's a far better way to "show." That really worked for me. Captain Janeway's smile as she left the shuttle (which was hilariously similar to the Cochrane, I thought at first), was just as effective. To borrow from the transcript Jim sent around last night... "You're sure you want to do this?" "No..." "But Voyager isn't big enough for both of us." "Good luck, admiral." "You, too." "Captain..." "I'm glad I got to know you again." Lovely. Perfect. Just what I'd have wanted. Skipping past the C/7 scene I definitely would have cut in favor of some closure (leaving out screams and growls and whines of protest)... Yeah, B'Elanna going into labor was just perfectly timed, wasn't it? But what a great scene that was! Tom doing his usual offhand joking in a time of stress, but freezing when the captain calls. B'Elanna's assuring him, his solemn "On my way," then their kiss, his hand on her belly...Man did that say a lot, too. What a great scene. I liked that Doc did give her "the shot," and absolutely loved how B'Elanna said, "Let's get this show on the road"... Things that make me go, "Yeeees!" The FX during the totally expectable "boom" section were wonderful, I will have to say. But better was Admiral Janeway's handling of the BQ. Not totally predictable, and their conversation was just...wow. Great dialogue there. The admiral's ripping off their contact was a nice little twist in the middle of it, even if her self-sacrificing assimilation was definitely planned. "Must have been something you assimilated," had me laughing aloud. What an utterly perfect Janeway line! Classic. The BQ's demise following it was excellent, frighteningly good to see and well done. As she falls, the doomed Admiral Janeway rises to her feet. Wow, wow. That was directed wonderfully. I didn't even mind that everyone from Pathfinder and half the fleet somehow managed to get themselves to the transwarp opening so quickly. Must be some portal we don't know about, but even then, I could swallow it. What I remember thinking is that at least they let Voyager fly in without their help. I was sort of wondering how Voyager got inside/behind the sphere, but it was a wonderful effect in the end. I thought the aftershock haze and realization among them all was actually quite nice--understated but totally natural. It's how i'd have done it, too. I did expect by then the hear sickbay comm up--again that wonderful timing, and I knew we'd get a shot of baby Miral (who was sooo cute--I'm glad they got a real baby and at least let us have that much). The look on Tom's face was worth a lot, though, even if he and his father only shared a glance between each other. I was pleased with all of that until the final cutoff. That's where I sat in an aftershock haze of my own, knowing that they actually did that to us. I knew from spoilers that Janeway's last line would be "Set a course for home." But I'd hoped... Ah well. Unfortunately, "Ah well" is not the best thought to have at the end of a series finale. Sure, I can very easily put together the pieces from there. I can practically see, hear and fell them in my mind. That's not the problem. The problem is that TPTB thought that was okay, that they'd given enough. One more minute--one tiny little minute--could have saved that from happening. I loved Endgame. It was wonderfully performed, well-plotted enough to keep me glued to my seat, even with the distraction I've already mentioned, answered a lot, made me think, made me laugh, made me feel, assured me, made me smile. But it would have been a well-ended plot in itself if we'd have gotten an end to the circle that Admiral Janeway set into action. It was incomplete without that. I didn't need all the answers. I just needed to feel like the story had indeed been closed, thay my beloved show was at rest. It's a happy ending, made with enough information to let me fill in the blanks. But as a story, plot-wise... No, one more little scene in the future, or one little montage showing them as a family, all together and to begin again, now home, would have made it for me. I'd have been perfectly content. There are benefits to leaving questions, leaving an audience wanting more. But the kind of "more" I'm feeling for is unacceptable. --And to think they'd leave it like that for future books is a manipluation that's far more cruel than the seeming laziness and disregard. What's worse is that when the novelization comes out, I will buy it. I'll feel I have to, to fill in the blanks. Again, I'm detail-oriented. No amount of frustration will keep me from wanting to do that, especially after seven years of devotion. But I'll be reading the last page first, without a doubt.
Love your take D'Alaire I agree with all of your points! My two big nits with this show are first that it was too much like Timeless. Yet in TImeless, at least Harry had huge stakes, the fate of Voyager and its entire crew. The stakes here were relatively low - saving Seven from death and Chakotay from pain and Tuvok from madness, plus 22 anonymous lives, etc... The second nit is to echo what everyone else has said about how Chakotay and Seven was an unnecessary add-on that added absolutely no emotional impact to the show and was entirely unnecessary not to mention unbelievable. I liked the rumor that was floating around that Admiral Janeway WAS an imposter, maybe the Borg Queen or 8472, and Janeway has to undo the timeline to save humanity or something. I dunno. But overall, I loved this episode. And I am CRUSHED, absolutely CRUSHED that it is over!! And I am considering forking out the big bucks to attend my first STar Trek convention if Kate Mulgrew comes to D.C.... Oh, that KM would come to DC!!! I would kill and die for that, especilly as I had to give up Cleveland for my new PC. Let's hope her husband gets lots of business here! Really? 4 minutes??? Man, that's a LOT of time in TV Land. Wonder why? What ended up on the cutting room floor? And if those 4 minutes were sacrificed to show "coming attractions" of ENTERPRISE, wha' happened? Does not showing them mean TPTB weren't happy with the cuts? Uh-oh!!!! And what about Sisko? I don't understand the reference. Please explain. Mindy I think the best ending, giving us closure and yet a sense of continuance, was TNG's ALL GOOD THINGS...when Picard sat down at the poker table, it was cumalative of all the years they had served together, and would continue to serve. DS9's closure was good, but it really WAS an ending, with "the old gang" splitting up and going their separate ways. Oh, well. Mindy Remember the cheesy ENTERPRISE preview? ...where they did a montage of Starfleet Captains that we've come to enjoy? BEFORE JANEWAY ... BEFORE PICARD ... BEFORE SPOCK- er, hello! What about Sisko? Wasn't he an ambitious SF captain? As to those cut scene... they probably didn't have enough "Seven influence" for Braga's taste. Yes, maggie! And you know (in the truly shallow department) what cracked me up? I'd heard that she was "wearing a fat suit." Well...yeah, I guess so. But KM in a "fat suit" looks just as gorgeous, in a different way, as KM in her currently natural slimness. Although I'm not sure how I feel about a culture that defines as a "fat suit" MY normal pushing-50 figure. Shallow "R" Us Well, it's over. But somehow I can't shake the feeling that there needs to be a "next week." I have not yet looked at anyone else's comments, and I wrote this offline last night. I am writing my "Endgame" review offline because I simply have to talk about this episode. In a way it was a great finale to Voyager - and at the same time, it was the first episode that had me wanting to throw things at the television. I guess I'll address my biggest gripe first, and that has to be the Chakotay/Seven relationship the writers pulled out of their asses. Where the hell did that come from? As many people complained after "Human Error," there has never been any indication of any affection between Chakotay and Seven of Nine, and yet here she is sucking face with him. This was Beltran's doing, I'm sure, and I'm sure Braga really gets off watching his live-in playing tonsil hockey with another guy. Other people have written of wanting to throw things at their televisions - I was whacking myself in the head, tossing everything small I could get my hands on at the TV, doing anything I could to vent my anger at the writers. Eleventh hour romances drive me mad, yes, even Troi/Worf. (Technically the whole thing never happened, because "Eye of the Beholder" where they hooked up was all in her head, and "Parallels" where they hooked up was all in his head, and yet there they were being all lovey-dovey in "All Good Things." Yeah, nice move there, writers.) This particular eleventh hour romance irritated me even more. Could we at least have built it up at all, please? Okay, so we know she had the hots for him from "Human Error" on. But he didn't seem to reciprocate the feelings - and if he wanted to make a move on her, knowing how she felt, why not start something on the planet in "Natural Law"? I saw nothing there to indicate that he had any romantic attachment to her, and yet here they are on their third date. I wonder who made the first move? Grrr . . . I'm still seething about this. Second off . . . and this is just an aside . . . the whole thing had an air of bad fanfic come to life. Anyone else get that feeling? Now, that out of the way, there was a lot more to this episode than that damn throwaway C/7 relationship. I must sing the praises of Kate Mulgrew!! I think I liked Admiral Janeway more than I do Captain Janeway, and it was neat seeing how she made them two completely identical completely discrete characters. Admiral Janeway had her sense of humor firmly in place, more firmly than Captain Janeway I'll say, but she had guile and conniving and deceitfulness that Captain Janeway never had. Plus, I don't see how Eric can call Mulgrew a hag - she was absolutely stunning in the old age makeup. If she really ages like that, she'll be even prettier old than she is now. Another aside: Southern HOJ-ers, heads up. Kate Mulgrew is coming to Tulsa as part of TrekExpo, Sunday, June 24, 2001. Tickets are only $7.00! (Part of the reason for this is that TrekExpo is not put on by any con "organization", but rather by a local sci-fi shop, which means they don't have to build their overhead into ticket prices.) I'd give my eye-teeth to go see her . . . but I'll be in Washington D.C.! Of course, one of my friends who does do cons says that Mulgrew often cancels - please cancel Tulsa so that I won't miss you by dint of being on vacation! I think really all the actors put in great performances, and I'd like to include guest stars Alice Krige and Dwight Shultz. Beltran actually put in some real emotion to his performance this time, although I could be extremely mean-spirited about it - I think I will. Chakotay's relationship with Seven would never have happened if Beltran hadn't made a bet with Braga that he couldn't write a scene with Chakotay kissing Seven - and no man I know would ever back down from a bet. True, his "why the hell are you breaking up with me" scene had some real angst, but that was the only time that the producers really needed him there: they could have stood up a cardboard cutout in the background for all his other scenes. Beltran has only been doing this for the paycheck for a while now, and he's finally paying for it. He conspicuously had very little to say elsewhere in the episode. RDM and RD were sweet this episode, especially the bit with the false labor. Of course, TPTB did what we all predicted they would and squeezed the baby out the last five minutes of the episode, but we knew that was coming. Michael Westmore and crew did a great job I think making the crew look older. They finally acknowledged RDM's receding hairline Seven really got on my nerves this episode, much for the same reason that Chakotay got on my nerves. I will say in Jeri Ryan's favor that she did a wonderful job in her scenes with the Borg Queen, Admiral Janeway, and that final "break-up" with Chakotay. She knows exactly when to let her voice break to show us what she's really feeling. However . . . they stood back and waved the goddamn magic technobabble wand again, but we knew that was coming. Once again, they pulled some magical solution out of their asses. How dumb do they think we are? And something that bothered me . . . the entire ship seems to know about Seven and Chakotay's relationship, even Neelix knows and he's on an asteroid light-years away, and yet poor Doc didn't know, didn't know enough that he made a (Doc-style) pass at her. So he's gone from Super-Hologram last week to Super-Clueless-Hologram this week. On the other hand, he was great as his future self. Doc: "And this is Tom Paris, pilot, medic, and occasional thorn in my side." and Paris: "My invitation must have gotten lost in subspace." Doc: "Well, we took a leaf out of your book, Mr. Paris, and eloped." and Paris: "It took you 33 years to come up with Joe?" And how natural that he was the one Barclay spilled everything to. Barclay always has felt more comfortable around holograms. Speaking of which. Dwight Shultz was lovely as Barclay this time, especially when he "fell back" into his nervous TNG "Hollow Pursuits" era stutter. I really do like Barclay when he's not being shoved down my throat like in "Inside Man." Voyager's Barclay certainly isn't the same shy guy who hid in the holodeck all during his tenure on the Enterprise-D and almost peed himself when he had the chance to meet Zephram Cochrane. Another good thing from First Contact made an appearance in this, Voyager's final episode: the original Borg Queen, Alice Krige. I know there are those of you who swear by Susanna Thompson as the epitome of Borg Queen-ness, but for me there was and is only one Borg Queen: Alice. Krige reigns as the Borg Queen. She was delightfully creepy and evil in First Contact, and maybe that's why I never liked Thompson's performance much; I was always remembering how wonderful Krige was. Watching her stalk around and seeing the little white highlights in her pupils where the light was reflecting off her eyes brought back great memories of First Contact. Whereas Susanna Thompson was scene-chewingly malicious in "Dark Frontier" and "Unimatrix Zero," she always seemed to be one woman, not really plugged into the Collective. True, the Queen is one disparate woman, and isn't part of the hive mind (she is the hive mind) she still "brings order to chaos," [which makes Admiral Janeway's line about bringing "chaos to order" all the sweeter - thank you for that in-joke, Braga] still reflects what they feel. Krige has this nuance to her performance, a certain jerkiness of movement, that reflects that the Queen is really listening to many people and sometimes has conflicts of opinion over what to do. Oooh . . . just remembering her bargain with Admiral Janeway brings to mind the scene from First Contact when she looked up from lavishing attention on Data and says, eyes way out somewhere, "There's been a change of plans." (Or something to that effect.) ::shudder:: Tim Russ sent chills down my spine with his crazy act, partly because he has been so good as the emotionally restrained Tuvok for all these years -- he always know just how much to show at just the perfect time. I especially liked the little head movement around the lines "Admiral Janeway comes on Sundays." And poor Harry, poor Harry who lights up like a hundred watt bulb unshaded whenever they have the least little shot of getting home. How nice that he had the maturity to be the one to make the "home doesn't matter now; Voyager is our home" speech. (Of course, we knew they all felt that way but just couldn't put it into words.) And it was beautiful to see that even after 26 years, he was still loyal to his first captain, the Janeway. (I smirked when I heard the name of his ship, the Rhode Island . . . somehow it just seems fitting that he got a ship named after the smallest state in the nation! Ethan Phillips, Neelix. My heavens. Like I did with Kes, I didn't realize how much I'd miss him until he was gone. His keeping up with Seven and playing Kadis-Kot (even though they both had to move all the pieces) was soo sweet. And his hopeful talk of asking Dexa to marry him -- well, he deserves her! (I thought he'd done that already!) My friend Janet who watched the finale with me asked, "Why did it have to be Borg?" Because they were completing a different kind of trilogy, a trilogy of deals with the devil. There was Janeway's deal with the devil in "Scorpion," where the Borg won. Then there was her deal with the devil in "Unimatrix Zero," where nobody won. And finally, there was her deal with the devil in "Endgame," where she finally won. She beat the Borg single-handedly (I count both Janeways as one person However, as rockin' a ride as this thing was, there was no closure at the end. They pop out of the Till Enterprise, you guys . . . 216 She's coming to Tulsa June 24. (I posted this in my other monster message, but it's so perfectly placed here.) And here's the kicker . . . I'LL BE IN WASHINGTON FRICKIN' D.C.!!!!! 216 Ah, no, shades of Jim Wright's "Best of Both Girls"!!! (NIM) If you haven't read it, please do, it's a wonderful romp. 216 I think that it was only a "fat suit" for Mulgrew's physique. And yes, I know I'm ruining the joke here and I have no sense of humor. It's no statement on popular culture when padding that makes Mulgrew look to be about 135-140ish is referred to as a "fat suit." Rather, any device that makes a performer look any heavier is referred to as a "fat pack." Plus, Mulgrew usually wears a corset to slim her down -- all the Voyager cast does -- so it was really just reversing what the corset does! 216 Whoa!!!! I totally forgot Sisko!!! (And I call myself a DS9 fan?!) And I met Mr. Brooks, too!... But THAT was considered the preview???????? Sheesh!!! Mindy I understand what you're saying and I'm sure you understand what *I* was saying...and I'd never accuse you of having no sense of humor. Interesting point about how the crew looked, Geordi. And other points addressed. I actually think that, in general, people in our society are looking younger and younger for their age...not just because of cosmetic surgery, but because of better medical care, better eating habits, better exercise habits, and even our style of dressing and hair grooming. By that last I mean that clothing standards, hair standards, even behaviorial standards are (in general) so much more relaxed, even the fabrics are easier, so people just look better. By the 24th century, I think it would be even better. As for fanfic filling in the holes left by the truncated ending, well, imho, that's not the fans's job. These concerns/problems/gripes we have about the closure should have been addressed on film. The only reason the writers had Icheb defeat Tuvok was to introduce his neurological problem. I thought that was an okay way to do so. I also thought that perhaps he was suffering from the Alzheimer's-like illness that affected Sarek. I did like that Tuvok referenced Spock's "The needs of the many...etc." Red Contact Lenses vs Insipid Romance Hmm. C/7 vs. Red Contact lense fight between Sisko and Dukat in a fire cave . . . for most trite plot point: I've gotta disagree about C/7 being a minor plot point. It took up a *lot* of screne time that could have been better used on the main story -- and nobody would have missed it. (And it would have stopped the hysterical screaming/laughing thing I was doing everytime the two of them came on together And while I *did* roll my eyes repeatedly during the Sisko-Dukat fight (Sisko's destiny was to distory a book? Riiiiighhhtt), Sisko and Dukat *did* have to have some kind of showdown at the end. I do think it was a nessisary part for DS9's finale (though I think Red Contacts should have been left out of it Carol -- who's still feeling a little detached about the whole finale. message moved for thread readability - originally in reply to maggie the cat's "C/7 made my skin crawl too!!" Two things I keep forgetting! 1) I loved Tom's line to Harry: "I AM home." 2) Wah! to not seeing Kathryn's mother and sister, or Chakotay's (suddenly discovered a few episodes ago) sister, either. Hey Shawnster, can I use that? The Gap quote I mean? I don't know what 'Microsurfs' is, but I still think that is a ROTF quote. So if it's yours, can I use it in one of my email sigs? I'll give you credit for it of course. Carol -- because as everyone knows, The Gap is soo "five minutes ago." Its all about the Banana! She is reportedly coming to D.C. on August 4th For a convention by slanted. Seven, B'Elanna, the Doctor, and I forget who else is also coming. Tickets are expensive though; $150 for autographs, a meal, and attendance in good seats; $100 for autographs and attendance in good seats; and $20 for attendance in the back. KM unfortunately seems to have a not so good track record about attending things, so I figure there is a 60% chance she'll actually attend. Tickets are allocated in the order you purchase your tickets, which is the incentive to buy early. *sigh*. Decisions decisions..... Angela, who is suffering Voyager withdrawal already.... What is a relaunch novelization? Is it a novelization of ENDGAME, or will their be anovel that picks up where Endgame left off?? That would be GREAT!!!! Angela It's both, in one book. I've never heard of Pocket doing this before, BTW. With DS9 (I understand - I'm not a reader of that line of novels, although I enjoyed the series) they published a novelization of the finale, and then some time later "relaunched" the characters' stories in a series of new books picking up after that finale. For "Voyager," though, the novelization isn't coming out until July (normally it would be in the stores the day after the telecast). Diane Carey's novelization of the "Endgame" script will be followed, in the same book, by new chapter(s) (Pocket hasn't been specific that I know of as to how much new material there'll be) that pick up the characters' stories and continue them. That part of the book is by Christie Golden. Yes, I think it will be great, too! Your "caffeinated" part II makes me really eager to watch again deleting C/7 of course Front row, VIP--sold! I purchased those last month. --And unlike Cleveland, I have no intention of giving them up. LOL! And I did that just for the promise of the Fab Four! Wouldn't that be a hoot if she did show? I forgot to say how MUCH I was IMPRESSED with Ms. Mulgrew's performance last night!!!!!!! She was ABSOLUTELY INCREDIBLE!!!!!! It's a very hard thing to act against yourself, wht with blue-screening and somebody reading the dialogue off-screen, and she carried it off MAGNIFICENTLY. Man, did she grow into this role!!!!!!!!! Being a fan of Jeri Ryan, I have to say that imho the whatever lack of chemistry lay between Seven and Chakotay was not hers. I really believe that she did an incredible job in the last four years; turning what could have been the absolutely worse disaster to ever hit STAR TREK (I know many of you already think it was)...meaning the introduction of Seven...into a fascinating character journey. (Remember my comment about Pamela Anderson as Seven?) Yes, I did get tired of ASATT myself, but it could have been far, far worse, guys! I wish we could have seen B'lanna, Tom and the baby together. *sigh*. Those two really grew on me this year. Mindy I sat there for the longest time pathetically... waiting for the hugs and kisses and parades and I had more than any thing wanted to see Tom and his father together, even when it broke for the last commercial break I was hoping they would show SOMETHING during the end credits (couldn't we have at least gotten that?). Over all I liked this episode, but I wanted more, another year at least. Mindy, completely agreed. At least you laughed.... Yes they did waste precious TV minutes on something that was completely unnecessary to the plot. Hearing about "broken-hearted" Chak (if we must but I'd just as soon not) was more than enough for the plot. I suspect C/7 was nothing more than a bone thrown to Beltran for all his gripes of the last few years. At one point during C/7's "argument", I even thought Beltran was actually doing something for his paycheck. But then he got way too physically aggressive for my tastes and it creeped me out. I couldn't even laugh at the camp of C/7 Thanks Janey. God, I really loved ENDGAME. Were their disappointments for me? Sure. BUt... I knew the finale would leave me feeling some disappointments...I think the finale, however, was wise to avoid those BIG scenes we so deeply wanted--I wouldnt have wanted to see those big scenes rushed and skimmed through. The finale couldnt do it all. I love Seven and am happy to see her happy w/Chakotay...but C/7, particularly as colored by the knowledge of how much unsatisfiable Beltran pushed for it, took up valuable time that would have been much better spent. A definite mistake. But the rest was SUBLIME! Im just sorry that some of my dear friends here at the Neb didnt experience it that way...and I d understand why, even though i still loved the finale deeply. david g Re: Alice Krige ROCKS!!!! I first saw Alice Kringe in Chariots of Fire and I loved her character because she was so elegant and refined, then I saw her in First Contact and couldn't believe it was the same person ( I asked her at a convention) what a range this actress has! Hey, you know what they say about great minds, Quince. Your guess about the namesake of Joe was my hunch as well. You're right-- it IS a nice and fitting tribute, that from such a 'simple name' such great things came over the course of Voyager's run. I couldn't help but think about what the last episode of Voyager would have been like if Menosky had a hand in it. I was concerned before, especially when I heard that the Borg Queen was going to be in it. When it comes down to it, the Borg Queen is nothing without those speeches Menosky gave her, and I was wondering how she'd come off this time out without those Menosky speeches. And indeed I seemed to notice they puller her away from the opportunity to wax poetic. That's the thing that's too bad about Voyager's post-Menosky villains, they don't really have anything interesting to say. But can you consider Annorax and the Borg Queen's love child? Whoa. No one would ever get a word in edge-wise with that kid. Jason Admiral Vs. Captain Janeway This is what I just wrote to Michelle Erica Green, in response to her review at Get Critical: You raise incredibly valid points about Adm Janeway's Ahablike narcissism...but Michelle, the EPISODE raises them, too! Adm Janeway is a jaunty and likable old curmudgeon but she's also terrifying and, as you say, horribly selfish. "Our" present Captain Janeway recognizes that her future self is irrational. That is why she resists her. But she asks the crew whether or not they wish to attempt Adm Janeway's plan. She doesnt make a sweeping decision as she did in CARETAKER. One gets the sense that in the bravura climax between the sublime Krige-Borg Queen and Adm Janeway, two magnetically fiendish "queens" have met their match in each other...But Captain Janeway is shown to be caring and mindful of others; it is Adm Janeway who is the dark embodiment of maniacal desires...and hugely fun to boot, I think. Adm Janeway is no different, however, from the future Harry Kim of TIMELESS, for better or worse. Anyway, those are my thoughts...thanks for your review...By the way, I agree with you on C/7...o well. Best, David Tell me about it... Just 5 more seconds is all I ask for. Just a longer shot of Voyager heading for home, with the theme music swelling in a grand finale as Voyager [and the fleet] are engulfed by that beautiful blue and green planet. I would even be willing to overlook being subjected to C/7 throughout the show [yeah, *that* was real]. But nooooooo. FOUR minutes of commercials and a two second shot of Earth. Not even long enough for me to get misty-eyed [which I was looking forward to, by the way] It felt like the end of show in mid-season.....not the end of the series, for crying out loud!! Oh, Carol! Defending "What You Leave Behind"? Little has been worse. I thought that the Seven/Chakotay romance was very hard to swallow and more frighteningly, exposed Seven as a very unpleasant person. But I didn't think it was that abundant, no matter how uncomfortable I was watching it. Compared to a plot that resolved itself by two characters falling **INTO A PIT OF FIRE** I'll take this climax over that one, even if it could have been a bit better. Jason Slanted made a mistake... Slanted sent out some e-mail that said KJ was coming to D.C., but apparently they meant Philly. Sob, sob. Angela Re: If it'd been up to me... (part one) I like what you said and it has made me feel better about the episode. I still cannot abide C/7 though and never will. I am sad to think that Tom wouldn't be a pilot though. Very sad. That was his passion. Mulgrew is always saying follow your passion. Why would Tom not follow his? I would love to see him be a pilot that writes, but to not be a pilot when he is so born to it and loves it with such abandon would be like suddenly not reading anymore for me. Yesteryear we expected women to give up their passions to stay at home with their children, have we not come any further? I also found it sad that B'Elanna wasn't an engineer anymore. That too was her passion. The fact that they changed these two characters so much bothered me. In my future, I would have Tom and B'Elanna as civilians designing and test piloting starships for Starfleet. Both would be following their passions and still provide a loving stable environment for their daughter. Interesting that they had only the one child. I don't see Harry as a Captain, though Wang did a fine job trying to convince me. I noticed in Renaissance Man when he was sitting in the Captains chair he just didn't fill it out. He is a lot bigger then Mulgrew, yet she takes possession of that chair. In fact, he is the only one who doesn't have a change of demeanor when they sit in that chair. As for the aging, I am not that far away from the age Tom and B'Elanna were supposed to be and I don't look nearly that old. Humor me here folks Shadda Re: 4 minutes? Probably to allow for when this is shown in the future as a 2 part episode, where they need time to do teh "Last time on Voyager..." and run the credits twice. But Adm Janeway resets the... future, doesnt she? So now we dont know that Tom and B'Elanna still fulfill those roles... But also, who's to say that Tom isnt still a pilot, just a writer now, too? Or that B'Ellanna isnt still an accomplished engineer? I liked how beautiful middleaged B'Elanna looked (Tom looked way too old, I agree)... david g I so agree...C/7 left me angry at Chak AND esp at Beltran Beltran...i love him in J/C terms--he seems noble and quietly heroic... but Seven does not have the effect on him, though Ryan never looked lovelier than she did flirting with Beltran...still, C/7 left me really angry for Beltran, who pushed for it and gave a hammy, aggressive performance that marred his bits in ENDGAME. david g Actually, Jason, I wonder what makes you say that? I thought C/7 brought the best out in Seven/Ryan in ENDGAME...she looked radiant and acted with real delicacy. IMO... it was Beltran, i thought, who came off horribly as a rather pushy and demanding Chakotay..why do you feel Seven was revealed as "frightening"? david g D'Alaire, now Im getting mad at you...
You TOTALLY and so articulately have expressed my own reactions to the episode...the Adm Janeway/BQ scene you so skillfully describe wa enough to make this my favorite ep of the...series? ...well almost. But you just put it all so well. The abrupt, chilly cutoff of the ending...it disappointed me, too, but I was wondering--to give TPTB some credit, esp the intelligent if a bit remote Biller--if that was meant to emphasize the powerful rehtoric of Harry's speech? You know, to my mind, being in that nebula with the futuristically advanced Voyager and those massive Borg cubes and that endless psychedelic pink-purple haze was the most mind-boggling sequence Ive ever seen on Trek. Whoa, to quote Keanu. My favorite moment in the ep is Janeway's utterly panicked "TOM!" Sigh. When the time is right, I will watch this ep again. david g And they pronounced Janeway as "John Wayne"! NIM What is it with Trek PTBs and new romances in the last few episodes? TNG had the whole Work/Troi business, plus they resurected Picard/Crusher. Then DS9 got Ezri and Julian together. Now this. At least, since the timeline's been changed, it may not last. Hopefully it will go the way of Worf/Troi. The Borg were in this episode? I find the complaints regarding the Borg's overuse a little silly. The Collective wasn't even in this episode, really. Yeah there were the typical plethora of mechanized geometrical shapes but they were window dressing. The Borg Queen, for the intents and purposes of her long-running adversarial relationship with Janeway is a character unto herself-- an arch-nemesis more than anything else and a crystalization of the forces that work to prevent Voyager's quick return home, both external, internal and sociological-- that is, the conscience of the crew demanding that they carry out this one last utilitarian mission to destroy the hub. Borg Collective? Only relevant because the Borg own the penthouse suite the Queen lives in. I liked the choreography of the final standoff between the two old rivals. Look at the expressions on their faces, especially Krige's when she realizes what's happened and Mulgrew as she fights for lucidity while looking down at the Queen's writhing body. Very nice stuff and the real sense of two strong diametrically opposed rivals who are destroying themselves bit by bit in their quest to finish off each other. Jason And Mulgrew got to have (a) Janeway die afterall! (NIM) That history clicks... ...with anything I'd have had of them, too. I always saw them as leaving Starfleet (having accomplished what they needed there, and thankfully settling down) but staying their fields. Definitely research and development. Who knows? Maybe it will be, as they're not going to get tired by another 16 years in the DQ, which makes the future's timeline believable to me. Either way, I don't see them continuing in Starfleet. Interesting that they had only the one child. Who says they only had one just because no others were mentioned? I know what you mean about the makeup. But compared to my mother, who is 58 and in excellent shape, B'Elanna looked quite nice. I thought they did a great job with her. It was Tom I had the problem with. Tough as aging makeup is, it was way too pasty on him. They should have kept his color, added some lines, and receded the hairline as expected--but for heaven's sakes, crop the hair! But don't let me get started on hair. Borg, Schmorg. I'm sick of them--and after so many eps with a race I've never been much for in the first place, I have every right to thumb my nose at having YABE, albeit for the last time. I did say I was pleased with how the BQ was used, with Krige's performance and especially Adm. Janeway's scene with her. That's saying a great deal in my book, and more than I ever expected to. Doesn't mean I'm glad they showed up, only that I'm glad it was enjoyable. Re: I so agree...C/7 left me angry at Chak AND esp at Beltran Endgame was wonderful in so many ways, but the C/7 scenario has offended me on so many levels I will need a day or two to sort them out. So do you blame Mulgrew for Fair Haven She wanted a romance for Janeway. I don't think its fair to blame Beltran for C/7. He made a joke to Ryan and she told Braga. I don't think that it can be construed as lobbying for the relationship. Moreover, Beltran thought the finale sucked when he read it. He thought the writers were idiots; he thought that C/7 was out of blue and poorly done. In France, he said that given their history he would have preferred a relationship with B'Elanna, and one with Seven only if its well-founded. Personally, I think C/7 was done so that we could be treated to another aspect of Seven of Nine, give her more screentime, and to help make Janeway seem not as petty for going back to save Seven. If I was trully cynical and truly believed TPTB were consciously misogynistic, I would say C/7 was a slap at women, showing us that older woman should sacrifice their happiness for young virginal women so that such young physically beautiful can hook up with some middleaged man. Re: If it'd been up to me... (part one) D'Alaire wrote: "For those who say Klingons don't age as quickly, I still recall that she's half-human, too, and that her genes might have leant that way in those respects. Not to mention, her face was still quite well-tended at about 24 + 33 = ~57 years." I've got to totally disagree. B'Elanna looked old for a 57 year old human and really old for a Klingon. I will grant that B'Elanna is half-human, but for B'Elanna to look that old she had too get really bad genes from only her human father, who didn't look that old in Author, Author. THe make-up artist completely ignored her Klingon heritage. Re: That history clicks... Interesting that they had only the one child. Who says they only had one just because no others were mentioned? Not to mention that it was stated that it would be difficult for the 1/2 human/klingon to conceive in the first place, which was why B'Elanna was so shocked she was pregnant in the first place. Mrs. Mac Re: So do you blame Mulgrew for Fair Haven Personally, I think C/7 was done so that we could be treated to another aspect of Seven of Nine, give her more screentime, and to help make Janeway seem not as petty for going back to save Seven. If that's the case, they failed miserable. There were PLENTY of reasons the writers could have come up with to justify Admiral Janeway's desire to turn back the clock. I mean, for crying out loud, 22 crewmen dead! I honestly don't think losing Seven and Chakotay was reason enough. I think they (the writers) should have stressed the loss on a whole rather than just one or two parts (S/C). Then I would feel better about the writing. As it is, by stressing Seven and Chakotay, Janeway's actions seem mighty selfish. This is not the humanitarian we are used to seeing. Chakotay had a little known sister. Seven had a elderly aunt. Ha! Twenty-two other crewmen had families waiting back home. I'm with you Pixie in HATING that Chakotay/Seven stuff. There are so many better things the writers could have done. Mrs. Mac Yes, isn't it silly. I forgot about Ezri and Julian. Laziness perhaps? It must be an easy one to think up and write. Let's see, finale -- we want an "unexpected romance Oh yeah, let's try Troi with Worf. No chemistry there. And Beltran has been lusting for Ryan even though her body language says physically repulsive! Of course, if he didn't constantly "lean" into her space... Bashir and Ezri are unattached. Let's throw them together for a prebattle roll in the hay. After all, they say danger is an aphrodisiac so its gotta work.... Hmmm, if Beltran said that, still... someone is responsible for the slimy execution of Chak's "imtimate" interactions with Seven. (I love how, on Trek, a kiss becomes "intimate relationship" and gives you license to lean and later aggress) Bad acting or bad direction? Bad writing with bad acting? Mulgrew conveyed her distaste for the sotryline in FH/SP. Was Beltran doing the same? I guess I don't really care. When blame is passed around, C/7 remains so poorly done as to be, as Malcolm put it, offensive on so many levels. Agree. If that was the writers' obvious intent.... I would have to find EG as a whole as offensively trite and badly done as C/7. However, there was enough in the ep to make me think Adm. J had stronger and better reasons than to "save Seven". Thank heavens for that wonderful scene with Tuvok. I do enjoy pixie's description, though, of saving the virgin for the "old goat". An age-old plot device, isn't it. Agree with Jason about WYLB but with you about Seven...kes you say that? My gripe about Seven is that her demeanor would have been more appropriate at the "reunion". In the DQ, she should have been hesitant and tentative and just more Sevenish, as in stiff. It was her first real life "intimacy" and her girlishness, while very appealing, didn't fit. Re: Hmmm, if Beltran said that, still... someone is responsible for the slimy execution of Chak's "imtimate" interactions with Seven. (I love how, on Trek, a kiss becomes "intimate relationship" and gives you license to lean and later aggress) Bad acting or bad direction? Bad writing with bad acting? Mulgrew conveyed her distaste for the sotryline in FH/SP. Was Beltran doing the same? If the Chakotay/Seven came out so cheesily, I suppose we should be grateful we didn't get a Chak/Janeway relationship. Mrs. Mac Oooo you're right, Maggie. My gripe about Seven is that her demeanor would have been more appropriate at the "reunion". In the DQ, she should have been hesitant and tentative and just more Sevenish, as in stiff. It was her first real life "intimacy" and her girlishness, while very appealing, didn't fit. The one thing I noticed that I forgot to mention was that I was bothered by how much Seven smiled. I guess it was to show that she had grown, but it was a little unnatural to me. I agree with you. It was unlike Seven to be so aggressive. Mrs. Mac Sorry, but Beltran cant have his you know what and do you know what to it too He did more than make a joke to Ryan--IMO. He expressed "ambivalence" about J/C, and has repeatedly said that Seven would, of course, never go out with Chak...in sarcastic frustration. The writers were trying to pease him--and did it foolishly, i think--and it STILL wasnt enough. david g "Be careful what you wish for." NIM Well... A J/C relationship wouldn't have been cheesy for the simple reason that they have something of a history together (even if it was only Resolutions and a couple of small J/C scenes along the way). C/7 was cheesy because it was so unexpected and uncalled for. Re: Well... My point was that it would be cheesy if the dialogue was anything like what we heard in Endgame. Even Seven's aggressive grab of Chakotay was silly. If they had any decent writers it might of worked but with this group, I wouldn't hold out any hope for any J/C being decent. Mrs. Mac Sorry, Mrs. Mac... I didn't get that ... maybe I should have noted that I haven't seen the ep yet, living in Holland et all It might be another 2 years before you get the finale! Oh boy have we spoiled it for you! Mrs. Mac Spoiling is good. And if I didn't want to get spoiled, I just wouldn't come to the board. It's that simple. They start in September with UZ:II. So that means I get to see the finale, what, around this time, next year? They do have the videotapes btw... 7.1-7.3. But I'm not allowed to watch them because I have to get through my finals first... *sigh*... just three more exams (out of the eleven) and I'll be on them Ivy How Ive resolved the Big Mistake of the otherwise superb ENDGAME for myself Because I loved ENDGAME, and because im a J/Cer, here's the sense Ive *had* to make of C/7 in the finale: Janeway has continually kept Chak at bay. She loves him but has been more devoted to the ideal of getting Home than anything else. To be really essentialist...Chak is a man. He cannot be expected to simply wait around for someone, howver passionately he loves her, for an indefinite amount of time. He's probably deeply flattered that Seven loves him. The whole relationship is desperately forced, but in a way that is effective, because the relationship is the result of competing needs and desires. Seven, who as DARK FRONTIER pts out, loves and deeply misses her father, sees in the manly Chakotay a paternal as much as a sexual figure. Janeway has deeply fraught relationships for both Chak and Seven (im also a J/7er, and I dont think this is incompatible with J/C, as the show has demonstrated) but cant make a genuine romantic commitment to anyone until Home is reached. Chak's brand-new urgency for Seven's devotion is the result, I believe, of his desperate desire not to rejected AGAIN by a beautiful woman whom he feels can offer him love. He needs the recognition and the desire from someone else. It will be very interesting indeed to see what happens once they're home! david g, VOY rationalizer Maybe, in the name of emancipation, we'll... ... have a Borg King next!!
Makes sense, but frankly it's easier just to edit it out of the tape Has anyone thought that maybe Janeway's concern for saving Seven comes not from some unexplained/undeveloped fanfic writers dream of J/7 but only from Janeway's established caring for Chak? Maybe she is being noble, and wanting for him what makes him happy, regardless of her own feelings. We have seen this unselfish care for her crew before, and we know her feelings for Chak go beyond that of a captain. Just a thought. message moved for thread readability - originally in reply to david g's "How Ive resolved the Big Mistake of the otherwise superb ENDGAME for myself" Re: J/C Or whatever happened to the soooo attractive Chak? I was always hesitant about an overt J/C, given Trek's track record for portraying relationships, but in recent seasons even more so. What surprises me, though, about C/7 in particular is Beltran's portrayal of Chak. Until the Error, Chak came across as warm, dignified, good-looking, sexy, all those great things.... a true hunk of manhood. In contrast, I found holo-Chak smarmy and I found "real" Chak even worse in EG. With Seven, he is like a smirking boy who's "scored", or is about to score. Even in forgettable Unforgettable, Beltran did not play Chak like a "goat in heat". He was certainly *not* repulsive in In the Flesh or Unity or Timeless. That's a great point, lurker; it sure works for me. NIM Re: Well...The only thing that ruined the C/7 romance...(can't you all guess what I'm going to say?) ...was the guy who was kissin' Seven! The man was smirking all the way through. No wonder there was no chemistry!!! Mindy Anyone else notice this? Something's been bothering me about the date on Chakotay's tombstone and I finally realized what. In the "real" Voyager timeline its 2377 (the year the cadet mentions when asking about Unimatrix Zero). That would mean they got home (before time was altered) in 2393, one year before Chakotay died. But at the 10th reunion Harry apologizes to Janeway for missing the funeral, as if it was recent (at least wiithin the duration of his 4 year mission). They were obviously talking about Chakotay. Did the writers just goof on the dates, or was it a case of no one wil notice? KM is coming to New York City, Philly,.... According to Slanted Fedora site, Kate Mulgrew is also coming to New York City on the first weekend of January 2002. I'm glad, for I can able to see her again without needing to spend for hotel or airfare! For those near Philiadelphia, Kate will be thore for the Slanted Fedora November con. Info at http://www.sfedora.com/Philadelphia.htm Anyone near Raleight, North Carolina, your chance to see Kate will come at the end of September a few weeks after the Las Vegas con. More info can be found at http://www.sfedora.com/raleigh,.htm So it seems Kate will be attending many cons in the year. And she mentioned in an article that she doesn't do cons. Right, Kate, we hear you, so we'll tell you so at your next con. I have But I don't go along with the "needs of the one" in the context of Endgame. Spock was more or less still alive when Kirk broke the rules to save him. Chak lost his wife. That's sad but doesn't justify Adm. J.'s rewriting history imho. I prefer to think that Adm. J's motives included all 22 people she lost from year 7 through 23, Tuvok's mental degeneration, Seven's death, and the added pain and suffering to the entire crew. including Chak, of those 16 years. Otherwise she is no better than Anorax (?) from YOH. I didn't guess but agree!. nt I thought Harry was referring to a nameless Voy crew member. With all the numbers and date thrown around, I just gave TPTB the benefit of the doubt. ENDGAME, on a rematch, is a masterpiece I loved ENDGAME enough, I thought, the first time...but I was a bit disappointed by the final five minutes, being stunned it ended so abruptly. Watching it again, I think it's just about perfect...and Ive even found a way to make (uneasy) peace with C/7 (though I wish it had never ocurred). The ending is really powerful. Upon realizing that VOY is IN the sphere when it arrives in the AQ, the ending plays out much more satisfyingly for me. It's such a deviously edited climax. The first time I saw it, it appeared that all of the Federation vessels had destroyed the cube, and that Voyager swooped in the wake of the sphere's destruction. But realizing that Voyager destroyed the sphere from within, bursting from it like a butterfl from a chrysalis, was deeply satisfying to me. And the joyous cry of Miral Paris brought a tear to my eye this time...as did the remarkably moving, for being so deeply restrained, glances btwn Adm Paris and Lt. Paris at the helm...RDM is a MASTER at reactions, as we've said here before. The delights in this episode, ranging from Miral Paris to Icheb out-Kaltoing Tuvok (sad though it indicates the situation to be) to the marvellous face-off btwn Adm J and the BQ...are unlimited. By the way, doesnt anyone else think putting a sixtysomething woman at the center of an action extravaganza is just RAD? david g, sad but happy david g, two questions. First, what is RAD? Second, when did they go inside the sphere? I haven't watched my tape yet, so that part kind of confused me. I thought the sphere was chasing them, and then I remember Janeway ordering Tom to alter course. So...wha' happened? Mindy Maybe he did it on purpose. Beltran is very unhappy and playing Chak with that whole smarmy leering manner was his revenge on the producers and writers for what they have done to his character over the years. I do think that Mulgrew would have kept him in line during scenes like he had with Seven though. Ryan is good, but she isn't as engaged in the entire scene as Mulgrew is. She isn't as generous an actress as Mulgrew or Dawson or McNeill for that matter. Have you noticed that these 3 bring out the best in the rest of the cast. Harry shines when he is interacting with any one of them, as does Chakotay. They tend to pull a performance out of the actor they are interacting with better then any of the rest of the cast. Ryan and Picardo are very focused on their part in the scene and not that aware of the other actors. The fact that they are generally central means we haven't noticed it all that much, but when they have to play off of someone else it shows up. Just a few thoughts on the matter. Shadda But even 22 people isn't enough of a reason. This is my whole problem with "Endgame". How could Janeway change history so dramatically just to save 22 people. What if, in 3 years, Miral Paris is killed. She lived to be at least (okay, I've forgotten how old she was, 26?, and still an Ensign? boy those Voyager people certainly don't seem to be able to dazzle their superior officers and rise through the ranks at any speed) in the original time line. How would Tom and B'Elanna feel knowing that Admiral Janeway caused the death of their daughter? Is Seven that much more important then the rest of the universe? What if Seven dies anyway in 3 years? Will Janeway go back and change history once more to save her? Yes, Annorax was my first thought when that final scene flashed across the screen. If only it had been for a noble purpose. Even Annorax's original reason for changing the timeline was to save his people. Not that there is any nobility in genocide. After that of course, he just lost it. I am still very disappointed in Janeway. How could she be so selfish. This is why a time machine wouldn't work. Few people have the courage not to change history, not to fix minor mistakes. Lets face it, in the greater scheme of things Voyager staying in the Delta Quad another 16 years is barely a blip on the screen. This is why time marches forward, we as a species simply would not have the integrity or maturity not to mess with history. Shadda There were lots of things I loved about Endgame I loved Mulgrew. I loved Janeway/Janeway. I loved the grandure of the episode. If you ignore the whole Chakotay, Seven thing, I loved everyone's performances. I thought they all, except Beltran, put in their all. Yes, the ending was powerful. How did Tom get Voyager inside that cube? I just would have liked at least a "welcome home son" or a "we're home...Grandad" just 3 words from one or the other of them. I do love Alice Krige's portrayl of the BQ. and yes, I think that having a 70 something woman at the center of the action was RAD. I still cannot justify her reasons for doing it, no matter how hard I try. The underlying premise is shakey, building this house on shifting sand instead of solid rock. Shadda Well, dear Mindy...HERE's what happens at the end. RAD is short for "radical," as in "cool," "awesome"...ie, my Nebbie friend Mindy is RAD! Ahh, the sphere....here goes. In that Borg Hub tunnel that Voyager and the Sphere are barrelling through, the Sphere appears to be on the verge of destroying Voyager. Janeway says something along the lines of, Can we get away from the Sphere? Tom says yeah, but all the escapes are exit apertures, leading back to the DQ. Janeway says something like, Get ready to go to these coordinates...Cut to Admiral Paris saying to the fleet, Destroy the rift. Then the Sphere emerges. Voyager is nowhere in sight. Then cut to Voyager--Janeway says, "Now where just where I want to be--now, Tuvok." Voyager fires. The Sphere explodes, but the Federation fleet hasnt fired a single shot, i dont think. Voyager bursts out of the debris field, in the AQ... Dear Mindy, you must rewatch, cuz Im sure I havent explained this tricky sequence that well! david g Shadda, I think she functions as Janeway's Id Yes, Adm Janeway is "real" person..but I see her as an allegorical figure, Janeway's Mania. Janeway has always been the center of an internal conflict between her scientific rationalism and her guilt-spurred emotional mania to undo the "damage" of her "mistake" 7 years ago. Adm Janeway represents the distorted, distorting drive in Janeway to undo the past and Make Things Right Again. What I think saves the episode from genuine immorality is that Janeway, our Janeway the Captain, sees in Adm Janeway the very moral dubiousness that WE can see. She doesnt blindly follow Adm Janeway. She invites the collaboration of the senior officers. She fights for the higher mission of disabling the Borg. And Adm Janeway, a commanding and also terrifying figure, eventually sees it her younger, more moral self's ways. At least, Shadda, this is how I *want* to see things...what do you think? I always really appreciate your perspective. david g Not just 22 people They may have been the proximate cause. But there is a larger impact which no doubt figured in Janway's decision - crippling the Borg. Even if they aren't completly defeated they have been dealt a major set back (loss of more ships on top of those destroyed or defected after UZII; loss of permanent trans warp corridors; need for a new queen). How many beings will now not be killed or assimilated? ENDGAME does improve with age. Re-watching the episode (or most of it) I found there to be a lot of nice little touches that it is extremely hard to pick up on upon a first viewing. For instance, I thought it was neat how at the beginning of the show one of the first things we see outside the newsclip is Janeway's busted coffee cup. I didn't think anything of it the first time I saw it and I probably didn't even notice it was damaged but it is a nice little touch that only a repeat viewing can harvest an appreciation of. Part One particularly improves upon a repeat viewing. I think you have to surrender yourself to it a bit because on a first viewing, you're kind of wondering where it's going to go and looking for the major plot points. Really, "Endgame" is oddly two distinct stories making up the series finale, very definitely cut up into two hours. My big complaint about the resolution is that even on another viewing you still need a guide book or technical manual to figure out what is going on with their plan. I do not think it is clear at all that the Borg Queen's connection to the Collective is being severed. Or is it? I don't know. And the sequence "within" the sphere is confusing. Where is that torpedo coming from that destroys the Sphere from within? It's all a still little unclear, but on a repeated viewing it isn't as nagging. What is nagging is all those red herring throw-outs that serve to distract the audience from what's going on. Janeway asking the Borg Queen to do other than what she really wants, for one. Well, what if the Borg Queen had agreed quickly? There were a lot of things that seem thrown in just to be confusing. That kind of clouds things in an unfortunate way, but overall, ENDGAME seems to sit better with age. Jason That's not why she went back. She even fought against the plan to blow up the conduits. She argued with Seven about the present people closest to her, not all those billions she didn't know, were what was important. Our present day Janeway is the one that wanted to blow up the transwarp hub. Not the person that made the decision to break the temporial prime directive. Shadda From Voyager! The sphere is destroyed from within by Voyager, "exactly where" Janeway wants it to be, inside the sphere. I think the whole conclusion is just sublimely done, and improves once the panicky confusion over Will They Get Home is dissolved. david g What else has ENDGAME helmer Alan Kroeker directed for VOY? NIM Completely agree that KM, RD and to a lesser extent RDM are generous actors and play off well each other. I always felt that Dawson brought out the best in the other actors/characters, but now that you mention Mulgrew often does the same (not all the time). With Dawson, Harry is not a drooling geek or just a sidekick. I thought RDM was good before season four. He and Wang did play well off each other, but after season three Harry was too often the bud of Paris' "jokes". I love Torres/Janeway. I was disappointed that we didn't have a young Torres and Admiral Janeway, where Torres is admiring the new tech and Elder Janeway smiling slightly telling B'Elanna that she (BLT) created X or Y after some memorable incident. Oh well. I think Dawson got the least screentime. I could go on, but why bother. As far as I'm concerned, the time cops erased Janeways temporal incursion and the events of Endgame never happened. RE: desired Adm. Janeway and BLT... Actually, I would have liked a reference to Miral in their discussions. Did you catch the other whopper? A 10 week pregnancy... According to Seven it was 3 months ago when her cortical implant failed, B'Elanna wasn't pregnant then. So her pregnancy was less than 12 weeks. Ugh! I find Golden's work subpar. I really can't stand her novels. Golden plays favorites in a big way and her favs are Paris (in a big way), Seven and Janeway. She has a thing for "Anglo-saxons" (a term she constantly uses in her books to descirbe Paris and/or Seven). Worse, is that she always writes B'Elanna as an unprofessional witch fretting over her love instead of concentraing on her very pressing work. I remember in one of her books, B'Elanna's big scene was all about B'Elanna not trying to vomit in front her engineering crew. I believe she was referring to Human Error. (NIM) No time to NIM. Got to get out the door. I don't know what the time is in the HE case. That's what I thought too (about the Borg) but about Anorax Didn't he start his time shenanigans primarily to get his wife back? It's been awhile since I watched it. Re: Maybe he did it on purpose. Frankly, I would respect Beltran more if that were the case. Reviewing definitely brings out the strengths of EGece and along the lines of what you said, davidg, by knowing the weaknesses in advance, one can simply ignore them. I wouldn't call it a masterpiece but it certainly was a strong finish, thanks to Mulgrew. And I'm really pleased about that. The ending is more powerful the second time around. Also the beginning makes more sense. Considering the last two seasons, it was a Voyager ep that actually left me wanting more because it was so much fun -- instead of feeling like an addict who couldn't give up something that wasn't particularly good for me. Nina, and other fans of Golden, I just finished DARK MATTERS BOOK 1, and am feling pumped for the... Relaunch, and for the ENDGAME novelization from Diane Carey...for an ultra right wing lady, that Carey can sure write! Pixie, my experience of Golden was quite different from yours...I thought she had a keen eye and ear for the characters--they *felt* like the people I love in reading her. Im excited for the new novels. david g LOL, Maggie! Yeah, about the beginning, the first time.. Maggie, I love what you said: "Considering the last two seasons, it was a Voyager ep that actually left me wanting more because it was so much fun -- instead of feeling like an addict who couldn't give up something that wasn't particularly good for me." So funny! Yes, in rewatching EG, I realized how intensely moving that last scene btwn Adm Janeway and Tuvok is...since Id tried valiantly to avoid spoilers, I couldnt figure out if Adm Janeway was about to morph into a Species 8472 or disassemble like the BQ! david g She is referring to Human Error! NIM Sorry about that subject line...I'm getting careless again. nt Your comment made me reread mine and I realize it didn't say what I'd wanted. I'll try again. [This is what happens when I try to write a complex response on a Friday night after a loooooong week.] They may have been the proximate cause. But there is a larger impact which no doubt figured in Janway's decision, however indirectly - crippling the Borg. She had to know they'd need to fight the Borg in order to use the corridor; her future torpodoes ensured they'd take out several cubes, and each cube destroyed does mean fewer assimilations. As it turned out she listened to her younger self and went further. Anyway, that's how I interpreted it, with her primary motivation being to save 22 crew members (really 25 - 22 + Seven, but also Chakotay and Tuvok, who were both effectively "lost" by not getting home for another 16 years), but with the additinoal rationalization that in so doing she might manage to take out some Borg too. Hopefully the novilization will make the entire issue clearer. Should be interesting to see if the relaunch includes that Report she promised Admiral Paris and how she explains this one. I pretty much agree with that. Didn't mean to direct my comments to you, specifically, D'Alaire, just to respond to the definite general sense of Borg exhaustion. I think TPTB did a fairly good job at including the arch nemesis without necessarily going back to the "Borg Well" specifically, at least. Jason Your right ,my mistake. All Seven episodes are essential the same. Her writing's not like that for me, though. Then again, I also enjoy Diane Carey's "Voyager" books despite some nits (I'm jolted by her use of "girl" for "grown woman," and of English measuring units - I'm a U.S. person who uses those units all the time, but never expects to find them in a recently published SF novel). I like the way Golden writes the characters, especially her J/C (friends only, in the officially published novels, of course!) scenes. Carey's personal belief that women have natural limitations amazes me, since that's not (IMO) how she writes Janeway. Diff'rent strokes, I guess. I never even noticed "Anglo-Saxon," although now I surely will if/when I re-read! david g, thanks for the explanations, but I still have the same problem with the sphere ending.... ...as Jason does. I think it's cool that they went inside the sphere and all, especially as Janeway's dialogue seems to indicate that they're going to take the "exit ramp" that will lead them back into the Delta quadrant.... But I also think that a quick scene of the sphere swallowing up Voyager as they seemingly attempt to veer off into the "Delta exit" would have made the end a bit clearer...it would have been a great cliffhanger for a commercial, that's for sure...then cut to Starfleet and Admiral Paris et.al. saying..."something's coming out of the sphere" etc., etc. Left as it is, it is too confusing. And I still think a "Hello, son" from Admiral Paris would have been terrific, too. Mindy Taking possession of Voyager seems contrary to the Queen's wishes At the end, she wanted them DESTROYED to prevent the original chain of events. Why delay? Well-- the confusion over what ACTUALLY HAPPENED is enough, why add the confusion over the motivations behind it on top, right? Jason Well, I find it very helpful to think of C/7. . . . . .as the Woody Allen and Soon Yi of Voyager. But for some reason, that image seemed to squick a few Nebulites when I shared it with them in a discussion at NF. Can't imagine why. MEG Re: Well, I find it very helpful to think of C/7. . . Two great minds. I said the same thing on TrekBBS. Malcom I seem to be in the minority here I didn't exactly *hate* C/7. Especially, I thought Beltran was fine. His "smirking" that everyone else noticed seems to me no different than his behavior towards Janeway during "Resolutions"--everytime I see that episode he strikes me as being as patronizing as he is charming (I have always been a J/Cer, incidently.) I think, although Ryan is good, Mulgrew was better able to convey a woman of substance and strength and purpose (in "Resolutions", of curing herself and leaving the planet) so Chakotay's somewhat condescending attitudes came off as cute or funny or flirtatious. But, Seven is naive in terms of relationships, and much younger, and seems to not stand up well. But Beltran's looks and voice appear to me to be the same. Two problems bothered me about the relationship: 1) the suddenness of it; and 2) the fact that the doctor had JUST declared his love for Seven recently and we never see her address it or talk with him or anything. I know that Doc episodes have been getting rather frequent and annoying in the past few years but he was still my first favorite character on the show and "Someone to Watch Over Me" is among my favorite episodes because he was so vulnerable and non-Doc-like in it. After it aired I always thought that a romance between those two would be fun to watch. As for Admiral Janeway's motivations, I don't believe that saving Seven and Chakotay was the key one, although her special feelings for Chakotay as well as the fact that Seven seemed to be the "favorite child" that she took on would make that not unbelievable. She apparently had been visiting Tuvok very regularly for a while and would have watched her oldest friend failing. And, as for the younger Janeway, she probably knew that "forbidden" information from her future self might help save Seven and others of the 22 future dead avoid their fates even if they continued on the long way home, but without a shortcut to the AQ, there would be no help for Tuvok. I believe that his future was the main, highly personal, motivation for both Janeway's. Overall I liked the episode. Like others, I was disappointed in the lackluster ending but I was so afraid that TPTB would kill off major characters or strand them forever or do something else equally nasty. I'm glad that they got home and am content to script subsequent scenes in my own head for more closure. Thanks for your eloquent analysis, lauren. I do think, too, that the Adm Janeway-Tuvok scene was one of the most heartfelt, heartbreaking scenes Ive ever seen on VOY, and it really supports, i think, your theory. david g Maybe Im just saying what you already both know... Voyager deliberately flies into the sphere, as Janeway's line, "We're right where we want to be" confirms...They flew into the sphere to destroy it, from within, and then perhaps to exit whereever they could...closer to the AQ then they were before. So, flying inSIDE the sphere negates the BQ's desires to destroy Voyager...and i think that they delayed showing us Voyager enter the sphere in order to delay the payoff/heighten the suspense as much as possible, since if we KNEW the ship was inside the sphere, the explosion of the sphere and revelation of Voyager in the AQ would not have been as dramatic. not saying all this was perfect but i think these were the intentions! david g I agree, Shadda, That drove me nuts about the episode as well. At least Harry in Timeless was saving the entire crew of Voyager, after they died due to HIS MISTAKE. That is plausible, believable motivation. Janeway has always been a bit of a cowboy, but her motivations just don't ring true. She just wiped Naomi's daughter out of existence, for example. To save Seven from death? Chakotay from pain? Tuvok from madness? 21 other crewmen from death?? I wish they had come up with a more compelling reason to justify Janeway going so beserk... Angela Have people here been able to make peace with C/7? Im wondering what C/7ers think. Im not aghast at the relationship itself so much as I am disappointed at the non-resolution to J/C. Does that make sense? I like Seven and want to see her fulfilled...kind of the way i like Janeway and like what Chak brings out in her. david g Yeah, but the Sphere had to have opened up its door for a reason. (NIM) I'm a little short on time david but I'll do my best. Admiral Janeway may have been our Captain's id, true, but what she did was inappropriate none the less. Recent studies have confirmed that we do indeed get wiser as we get older. Apparently that is not the case in Janeways life. Janeway is as driven to get her crew home, even after they are home as she was when they were in the Delta Quad. If she was so driven, why not go all the way back to Caretaker and prevent them from getting thrown into the Delta Quadrant in the first place. She certainly would have saved many more lives then just the 22 and Tuvok would have been fine. Ahh, but then she would not have had Seven. Making it about Seven, not about the 22 crewmembers, nameless I might add, or about Tuvok, or about Chakotay, who I might add can take care of himself, but simply about Seven. If Chakotay can't get over the loss of his wife, well he is not as strong I we were led to believe in the first place. A shell of a man, how silly. I resist the notion that as we age, we become insane. I resist the notion that only single childless people can be successful Captains. The other message of this episode, single Kim becomes a Captain while married Paris and Torres are relegated to nice safe jobs. We who chose marriage and family are essestially non risk takers I guess. That seems to be one of the many myths of TV and of Trek. I am pleased that "Captain" Janeway is able to see beyond what "Admiral" Janeway is asking her to do, but again we have the younger among us so much wiser then the older. This youth oriented society really has no use for it's elders. So we have "Admiral" Janeway as "Captain" Janeways mania. Probably the point they were trying to make. My experience is that usually as we age, we come to recognize that we are fallible. That we make mistakes and we cannot fix them. That life is not fair. That loss actually makes us stronger. That we are less like God then we thought we were in our youth and we don't always know what's best. That things happen and there is nothing that you can do about it except clean up the mess and console the injured. But, above all, you cannot go back and you cannot live in the past. Life goes on and if you don't go with it, well, you will end up insane. Change is forward thinking. I do love what "Captain" Janeway did and I loved so much of this show. Mulgrew was magnificant. The whole BQ vs Janeway was fabulous. I just wish that had been her original reason for going back. To close the conduit closest to the Alpha Quad would have been a far nobler reason then just to save Seven. It makes Seven look ridiculous. I want "Admiral" Janeway to be wiser the "Captain" Janeway. Of course, that's just my opinion. Shadda This is getting funny, Jason, but I think that... the Sphere was bent on assimilating all the future tech in Voyager...why it didnt destroy but absorbed them. david g I'm gonna go Wittgenstein on this one... In this thread, I have seen *two* kinds of discussions going on: 1) Why *did* Janeway go back into the past? and 2) Why *should* Janeway go back into the past? These are two totally different questions, but they have been confused in this thread. I think that when David says that Adm. Janeway functions as Janway's Id he's giving an answer to the first question. Then you, Shadda, say that you think Adm. Janeway should be wiser than Capt. Janeway (because she's older....) - in your post you're talking about the first *and* second question as if they were one and the same. In other words, there are two layers to the question; the first is the "meta"-layer, which stands above the story: did the writers make the right decision in giving Janeway this particular drive, this motivation? and the second is the layer "inside" the story: did Janeway make the right decision? Not having seen the episode, I'm not in a position to answer either of these questions; you are, and have been doing so in this thread - and I've enjoyed reading your opinions. And now about the "getting wiser as we age". I don't think we get wiser per se... it's about the experience we get through the years, and about how we grow to see things in perspective. How we become more calculating, and less impulsive - but if that's what people consider as "wisdom", then we get wiser indeed!! Ivy PS about why Adm Janeway didn't go back to the Caretaker instead of that nebula (apart from the very obvious reason that that would have nuked the series as a whole PPS You say "But, above all, you cannot go back..." I know what Janeway (either one of them) would say...: "I sure as hell can!"
Re: I'm gonna go Wittgenstein on this one... Why "did" Janeway go back? Ahh, but then she would not have had Seven. Making it about Seven, not about the 22 crewmembers, nameless I might add, or about Tuvok, or about Chakotay, who I might add can take care of himself, but simply about Seven. If Chakotay can't get over the loss of his wife, well he is not as strong I we were led to believe in the first place. A shell of a man, how silly. She went back to save Seven. At least that is what the writers told us. If Seven had not died three years from that time, if Seven had still been alive I believe they are suggesting that Janeway the Admiral would not have gone back in time to "get her crew home" any earlier. As for the "above all, you cannot go back" I prefaced that with "My experience is", indicating that that is my opinion and that is today's reality. Yep, we do get wiser. I was referring to a huge study they just completed that said just that. We don't, however, get any wiser as a species, only as individuals, because alas, wisdom only comes with experience, it cannot be taught. I certainly know I have a lot more to learn and a lot more wisdom to gain. I just hope I have the wit to do so Shadda PS As for the gains they had made in the 7 years they were in the DQ I find it hard to believe that they did not make as many gains in the next 16 years. But, of course they could not have sent her back to the Caretaker, that would have "nuked" the whole series as you say. I can just see fan reaction to that one. Are you going to read the relaunch, Shadda? And a question for Ivy I think probably, for better or worse, the relaunch novels will answer a lot of our questions and that EG left it all up in the air in order for the relaunch to tackle these questions. My hope is that they address the moral muddles involved....By the way, Shadda, i think you have no shortage of wit! Ivy, love your take! Can you tell me more explicitly how Wittgenstein fits in? david g And another point: the beauty of heterosexual friendship? In my frantic rush to make peace w/C/7... Perhaps VOY is trying to establish that the friendship btwn J and C is a beautiful thing worth celebrating? We dont often get male/female heterosexual friendship depicted in media...maybe that's how (sigh) we should look upon J/C? david g In ENDGAME, CAPTAIN Janeway is a great hero This post means to emphasize the distinction that should be made btwn CAPTAIN and ADMIRAL Janeway... A crucial fact--there are two distinct characters at work/at odds in this episode, Adm Janeway and Captain Janeway. Adm Janeway, who sort of reminds me of feisty, cantankerous ex-governor Ann Richards, is NOT our CAPTAIN Janeway. And I think it is important to remember that, say what you will against Adm Janeway, Capt Janeway remains a heroic figure of conscience. Adm Janeway can be taken in two ways. First, see her, on a meta-level, as an allegorical figure, Janeway's Id, the representation of Janeway's Mania to Get Her Crew Home, the guilt-ridden obsessive desire to get the ship home which Janeway constantly wrestles with, her nearly fatal flaw. Adm Janeway is the dark represenation of the dark side of Janeway, the obsessed, driven side. But this dark side is, to my mind, part of what makes Capt Janeway a great hero. For it is in the marvellous blending of her many attributes that she is a deeply compelling, for be so deeply human, figure. Janeway's compassion and her scientific rationalism are always at war with her guilt-complex-drive to repair the "mistake" she made to strand Voyager in the DQ. So when Adm Janeway appears, she is both the nightmarish fantasy figure of the dark side of Janeway and a possible future outcome for Janeway. Now, what Adm Janeway represents and proposes is questionable and complex and even frightening. But CAPTAIN Janeway realizes this. She doesnt blindly accept what Adm Janeway instructs her to do. She instead RECOGNIZES the manic intensity of Adm Janeway and calls her actions into question. Now, Capt. Janeway does want to get her crew home, quite intensely. But when she realizes that in so doing--to follow Adm Janeway's plan--she would miss an opportunity to disable the Borg, she REFUSES to acquiesce to Adm Janeway and comes up with a radically different plan. For Captain Janeway, saving lives FROM the Borg is more important than saving lives on her ship or in fulfilling her own desires. Because Adm Janeway is still Janeway, she is able to be redeemed by Captain Janeway's moral rigor and heroic spirit, which in turns activates those qualities in HER. So then Capt Janway and Adm Janeway work together to solve the problem of bringing VOY home AND crippling the Borg. The other important thing to remember is that Captain Janeway CONSULTS the crew and refuses to attempt the plan to get home and disable the Borg without the crew's consent and mutual agreement. This is a leader at work; Capt Janeway has flaws but unlike Adm Janeway she is not a megalomaniacal figure. Adm Janeway is indeed a questionable figure, driven by desires both noble and misdirected. This is not a quiet episode. VOY has never been a quiet show. It has always managed to raise complex moral problems while refusing to tie them up neatly. Personally, I find this admirable. I have to add that what makes much of this work for me is Mulgrew's superlative acting in the dual role. But I would be lying if I didnt report what a magnificent creation Adm Janeway is. Here's a sixtysomething woman at the center of a megaaction epic. I find that rad! david g LIl' Sabrina WIldman - X is probably no more... It's unlikely that Naomi will be the same person or married Sabrina's father. Think about it. She'd be around 23 year-old (chronologically and physically much older due to her Katarin heritage) when she got back, a fully formed adult and ready to move onto other things. Whereas pre-teen Naomi will still be living with her mother (perhaps father), she'll get to interact with kids her own age and date normally. VOY should have ended with a different kid playing Sabrina Wildman, showing us one consequence of Janeway's single-minded obsession to save Seven. Disagree with your PS, Ivy. Here's why. First you are assuming that the latest 16 years of the original journey were not as eventful as the first Seven years, but we know for Admiral Janeway that it was in those 16 years they would meet other races, would develop more technology and more strategies to defeat the Borg. As Shadda has correctly pointed out Admiral Janeway took it upon herself to change the lives of a 100 crewman, their families and the infinite number of individuals the crewman would have impacted to save at best 24 individuals (although if we are honest she's doing it for one individual - SEven and everyone else is how she helps rationalize her irrational decision). As noted by VOY fan (sorry I didn't read your post before I posted underneath yours) that little girl, Sabrina WIldman-X, in all likelihood does not exist. Who is Admiral Janeway to decide that Seven's life is more improtant than that little girl? Moreover Admiral Janeway was not trying to balance out the gain vs. loss to the greater good. In a speach she gives, she essential states that it was okay to strand a bunch of strangers in the Delta Quad, but unacceptable to lose her family i.e. Seven no matter what. An attitude that shows why Janeway is not fit for command. As we know from TNG, to pass the command test, a Captain must be able to order the death of a crewman for the greater good. As far as I'm concerned this episode never will happen because Janeway has created a time loop which alters the time cops to her blatantly selfish and illegal actions. The time cops will stop her and send that batty Admiral to an temporal rehabilation center (ie nuthouse) for the criminally minded. But Pixie, you are totally collapsing Admiral and CAPTAIN Janeway! They are two distinct people, not the same person! One in many ways has little to do with another. In some ways... Pixie, if Adm Janeway showed up on Voyager and you wer Captain Janeway, what would you have done? How would you have acted? Though I think she is eventually redeemed, Adm Janeway is a dark figure at odds with Captain janeway, who heroically sees that there is more at stake than simply getting the crew home, imo. david g Hmmm....I don't think it was Bragaesque Braga has usually tagged a nice little epilogue on to his two-parters - Scorpion (Janeway writing in the holodeck), Year of Hell ("I think I can make the time"), Equinox ("I'll bring the croutons"), Unimatrix Zero (Janeway and Seven in sickbay). So I don't know whether we can call it a "Braga ending." Hey Caillan, did you see the finale?! Dying to hear your thoughts, my friend! david g Re: Deb's ending was better... But that "ending" existed in a quantum reality different from TPTB's, Shawn. D47... back from Cleveland and still in SEVENTH HEAVEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Re: Hey Caillan, did you see the finale?! I did indeed, david. And I liked it - a lot. The last line was a killer. I'm still composing my thoughts since I only saw it last night....and trying to get over the fact that there won't be any new Voyager...ever. Re: Endgame: "If anyone is in town." Hi. I know, I know... Long time, no post!
First, let me apologize for posting first, and reading later. This is necessary, when you come back to find over 185 posts and most in one thread. Second... let me say that Shawn was right. "My" ending "was" better....
BUT!!! To be fair... "I" wrote THAT ending to please just one person, ME! I'm gratified it pleased him too, but I'm sure there are many people that would have croaked had TPTB filmed it. Eric, god love him, being the first. (WHAT? We spent 7 years going NO-WHERE?) Third... I doubt there could have been any ending that would have totally pleased me... since it STILL would have been the "end". As I said in multiple posts last weekend... I love this show, and this crew, and that Captain... and I never really wanted it "to end". Now, normally by the Sunday after a Wed ep, I would have seen the blessed thing 3 or 4 times... and yet not this time. After 1 sitting wed night, and 3/4's sat night, I feel I can make some comments, but like my compadre... david... these may change as I rewatch in the future. Sigh. I liked it. As I went to sleep Wed night, I did moon over that "truncated" ending... until I realized they "gave" me everything and "more" than I could have expected. They just did it 33 years after I expected it. I saw Voyager the golden ship, fly-by the Golden Gate bridge. I saw Janeway wasn't reviled as a prime directive breaking disgrace, but rather revered as a Federation Admiral and a Klingon high council deal maker. I saw Torres expand beyond her engineering roots, and Tom become a famous (albeit BALD! LOL!!!) holoprogram writer in his older age. I found out that it took the Doc ANOTHER 33 years to find himself a name... and that NOT ONLY did HARRY finally get promoted (To CAPTAIN, no less), but that so did Barclay! I really appreciated THAT bit of info. I discovered that not only did Tom & B'Elanna's daughter survive, she eventually went into Starfleet (although she's a little old to be an ensign!) and not only did Naomi survive, but so did her daughter! And... I learned... that even 10 years after getting her crew "safely" home... Janeway... the "Good" Shepard, could not forget her lost sheep. Could not forget the foster daughter who lost her life in the Delta Quadrant. Nor the First officer who broke his heart in the Delta Quadrant. Nor the Best friend who lost his mind in the Delta Quadrant. Nor would I expect her to. "Keep your shirt tucked in. Go down with the ship. And NEVER, leave a crewman behind." No. Not the woman I'VE followed through hell and back, these last 7 years. Wasn't Admiral Janeway something? I've only seen the Tuvok goodbye scene once, and yet I was crying... she was saying goodbye and he didn't know it! And the photo she left... ARGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH! (Kleenex break...) I mean really, she was so focused! So sneaky! Sending Ensign Paris in to negotiate, and then away from harms way... guilting Captain Kim not only into allowing HER to do JUST WHAT HE'D DONE... 35 years before (Timeless)..., but also calling him back to protect her from the Klingons! On the Voyager... she was more stilted, more cumbersome than I would expected... until I realized... (as the Admiral herslef finally realized), that she was a fish out of water. That she WAS in command in the future, but only a guest on Voyager. I loved the fact that, try as she may...Voyager resisted her machinations, and "went its own way". I loved that... like they did with Janeway at the end of "Night"... the crew decided to risk life and limb in an attempt to save someone else instead of themselves. But this time, it wouldn't be an unknown species. It would be Earth, and the Alpha quadrant. And I loved the fact... that the one guy who was the embodiment of the "get home now" movement since the first season, was the one in the ready room that gave the speech about "it" not being about the "destination"... but rather... about the "journey". As Tom himself had told Harry... they have always "been" home... on Voyager. As for the nods to continuity, I thought it was great when Admiral Janeway talked of Headaches and temporal mechanics, did NOT and then DID drink coffee, prayed at Chakotay's gravesite, wished her friends goodbye, looked happy the first time she saw a "living" Seven, used the Icheb neuropathic virus and (I assume) the Doc's neural suppresanat to slow the Queen's awareness of her impending death. I would have LOVED it if the final scene had allowed the Borg Sphere chasing her to either "be" the one commanded by the Klingon general freed in Unimatrix Zero... or partially destroyed by the same general as Janeway made her way for the AQ... But then, we can't have everything, right? Like I can't have J/C. Sniff. I will admit freely that I am now and will always be a J/Cer. And yet, I didn't mind this C/7 stuff. Why? I asked myself the same thing, and came up with 2 scenarios. 1) I knew she'd never allow herself to love him, so why let him languish for 23 years too. 2) The Robert Beltran controversy, over the last 2 years, has cooled my ardor for the pairing. "Anyway"... Was it perfect? No. Because when it ended, so did my show. Unlike the end of TNG, where I could calm my grief with the knowledge that a feature length film was in the offing... I have no such balm to place on my broken heart. Sigh. Well... that's not exactly true. I have memories of an amazing convention that proved to me, all over again, that my love for Roxanne Dawson and Kate Mulgrew is NOT misplaced! But, more on THAT later. Mrs Mac... I "think" you'd have been proud of me yesterday.
D47 Re: sixtysomething????? david... its even MORE rad to realize it was a 76 year old that was the center of the ACTION!
D47 In fact, that seems to have been what Mulgrew was pushing for, for so many years, an "intimate" albeit platonic realtionship. "They" can be great friends, without "jumping into bed." D47 For all my love of J/C I think it's a good thing for TV to portray a strong friendship between a woman and man that's not sexual and never destined to become so. I got thoroughly irritated with Dr. Ruth today (Sunday paper) when she remarked that she thinks it's "difficult for people of opposite genders to remain 'just friends.'" HUH? At least half of my dearest friends are men, and most of them are happily married to other women! The only thing I'd add, david... is that when she "consults" her crew... she's consulting them as TEAM leaders. "You know your people working under you"... if I recall the line. Not "just" asking them for their own wants and desires, but asking them to consider the sensibilities of those who work under them. The Admiral has lived with the pains of her actions for "too" long, and they have colored her perceptions. But as you pointed out... even as "far gone' as the Admiral seems... she can still be won over by the heroine that IS Captain Kathryn Janeway. Its not JUST the "crew" that is loyal to her beyond all reason. The Admiral herself, was a willing audience, begging to be convinced of this Captain's worth. D47 Re: "She was the Caretaker"... GREAT line, kiddo! Couldn't have said it better myself! D47 A few more tidbits on that tricky ending, Mindy! The sphere is racing to disable Voyager...then it opens its green maw to absorb Voyager. Then we find out all exits lead back to the DQ. At that point, Janeway says, "Prepare for a course change, Mr Paris." The sphere enters the AQ...cut to Voyager bridge. Janeway says "Where are we," and Paris says, "Right where we want to be." Then Janeway says, "Now, Mr Tuvok, " and Tuvok fires what must be a transphasic--and as yet unassimiliated--torpedo. There IS a shot, then, from within the sphere of the Voy-sent torpedo destroying the sphere, allowing Voyager to burst forth. I think all of this was done to delay the revelation of Voyager in the AQ to the last second...i find it cool, after repeat viewings. david g | ||
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![[The Voyager Crew]](../images/voyager_crew.jpg)
What a lousy ending.
Thank goodness it's over...
