Renaissance Man

Voyager's last minute "Renaissance".
Jason -- 17 May 2001, 02:28 GMT

My expectations for this show weren't too high, but I was surprised, at least for the most part of it. This episode had some great, crackerjack plotting. It wasn't exactly "Worse Case Scenario" (the ending here is far too limp for such a comparison) but there were many bouncy plot twists that made me perk up a few times.

In all, pretty enjoyable! With all the set-up, I was hoping for an ending a little bit more clever but I can't complain too much.

There's the whole issue, though, of this being the next-to-last episode. This was a great episode in terms of pinching the audience and getting us excited for next week. This episode certainly did have some life to it, and the action sequences were pretty cool. But even TNG, episodic as it was, did an episode a little bit meatier leading into their finale. OTOH we got "Homestead" last week so I've got some mixed feelings as to its placing right before the finale.

But still, this episode was pretty exciting in a lot of ways, so I can't complain.

Jason

I give up. I can't stand to watch any more of this crap.
Terry -- 17 May 2001, 02:40 GMT

This is the first Voyager that pissed me off so badly that I finally just turned off the TV. I couldn't stand to watch the Doctor disobey every order and make monkeys of the rest of the crew. Tuvok hasn't looked this inept since season two.

For all you D/7 fans...
lurker -- 17 May 2001, 03:01 GMT

Doc confessed his love for SevenIn front of the entire senior staff!

Okay, I confess I turned it back on after five minutes.
Terry -- 17 May 2001, 03:03 GMT

The ending was funny. That is, what should have been the ending where the Doc confessed all his secrets. Not the actual ending where once again, Janeway punished the Doc's serious crimes with a slap (very very light) on the wrist and then rewarded him.

The only good moment besides the confessions was the squicky moment when Tom kissed the Doctor in engineering. That was fun.

I thought it was fairly good, for S7 anyway
Q -- 17 May 2001, 03:16 GMT

However, it appears PTB has been watching too much of the Matrix lately: Walking on walls? Jumping over panels? Give me a break.

Here, here on Tuvok's Keystone Kop tatics. And the Potato Heads remind me too much of the Ferengi.

Liked the Doc/Janeway interactions though. And I believe this is the first time we've seen Voyager's morgue(?) So that's where all the redshirts end up.

BWAHAHAAAA!!!
D'Alaire -- 17 May 2001, 03:35 GMT

Poor Tom! B'Elanna will never let him live that one down--or maybe Doc was hiding from her specifically when she found out. And Tom asking Doc if he had anything else to confess--ROFLOL!!! That was priceless.

And B'Elanna's snark when she said "I've got him," (so few words, but gad, the way she said tht one, and her expression...) and then when the Doc was fine--BWA! Oh man, what classic Torres. --This on top of her engineering greatness and food temptations, and...Dang, I love her character.

And I can't help but wonder what B'Elanna's midnight cravings have been like if Tom's trying so hard to get her to eat fried chicken and potato salad (with extra paprika...doesn't that describe the potato people in a way?) during the daytime....

Oh, the rest of the ep? (grin)

Okay, well, I could go on like others have already and will again about how much I'd have liked a little more arc before the finale. Certainly, I would have loved that. But I told myself a while back that I wasn't going to complain, now that it was done with.

So, as a stand-alone, I did enjoy this one, even though I did get all the spoilies. There were a lot of snickers (both inside jokes and regular laughs), a nice pace with the Doc's mad plan, and fun problem that was rectified nicely. Maybe a little predictably with the squishy potato dude, but I liked how it all panned out...

Even if Janeway still wouldn't punish the Doc, even though he disobeyed her direct orders--again! snort! I'm betting they wrote that scene just to bother the ones that'd have the Doc in the brig for some of his doings.

Basically, this was a nice ensemble show--a little bit of everyone, both in their element and out of it, and a bit more still. Doc was much more how I like him this week--and more hilarious still for everyone's reactions to him in the end. But I especially enjoyed how each of the actors "took on" the Doc a little or more. Wonderful stuff...

And poor, poor, solicitous Tom! LOL!

D@mn, I'm going to miss this show. Nits and all, I'm going to miss these characters and the actors who play them. Fun eps like this (week before the finale or not) remind me all the more why I fell in love with them in the first place.

Next week: Waaah! this is the last time I'll be saying next week!

The Official Sub-Thread For Laughing at the Doc's Matrix moves in "RM"
Q -- 17 May 2001, 03:40 GMT

I didn't think anything could top the jump over the panel and through the window (did anyone else expect to hear James Bond music?), but I was proved wrong when I saw a pregnant woman skip across the walls.

DH messed up the VCR!! Help...
Voyager Fan -- 17 May 2001, 04:10 GMT

I"m crushed. Does anyone in the Washington DC area have a TV guide?? Can you please tell me if Renaissance Man is airing on Saturday at 7:00 p.m. or if I've missed it for good??

Sniff, sniff, sob sob...

Angela

RD does The Matrix -- I wish *I* were that agile!
AC -- 17 May 2001, 04:15 GMT

Not to mention the hilarity of her sprinting down the corridor during the third trimester...

Doc, Doc, any woman who's ever had a baby would know something was up immediately.

But I did adore the kiss in engineering -- Doc as B'Elanna was trying SO hard to pretend that everything was all right, but learned a few things about Paris that he really didn't want to know.

*snort*

AC

RENAISSANCE MAN wasn't that bad....
Eric -- 17 May 2001, 04:41 GMT

...as Voyager goes and pretty good by Season 7's abyssal levels.

The FX were definetly up a notch with all the Hologram trickery going on but what was up with the Matrix/Dark Angel stuff? It was interesting but not really what Voyager has said that Holograms can do! It seemed very out of place. Cool, but way out of place. Although i did like him jumping though the wall to get the emitter.

One last time Tuvok looks like a idiot.

One last time Voyager's defenses are breached far to easily.

But that wasn't to, to bad. What REALLY bugged me was False (i think) Janeway's comment about reaching the Beta Quad.

A little late for silly name dropping guys! :mad:

Grrrrr, why not have a season in the Beta Quad instead of doing one more year of the same old same old?

Also the ending was VERY weak. Why the heck not end it leading into next week????

Not bad by this seasons standards but it could have been better.

Could'a Would'a Should'a

Eric

The Beta Quadrant is just a name.
Jason -- 17 May 2001, 04:52 GMT

The question is WHY do a year in the Beta Quadrant? It'd just be another name for what the show is already doing. The whole Beta Quadrant debate just seems completely superfluous to me.

Jason

I wanted to see them deal with Romulans or Klingons.
Pixie -- 17 May 2001, 05:18 GMT

If I were Romulan, I try to intercept VOY and tell Starfleet, so sorry the ship was destroyed. There's so much intrigue.

Well, even the most embarrassingly awful VOY ep has few good moments
david g -- 17 May 2001, 05:25 GMT

This ep was even worse than either INSIDE MAN or BODY AND SOUL.

I wont even go into how awful I thought it was, except to say that those Potatohead/Pigs in Blankets Aliens from TTDS were none too appealing to me even then.

i liked the odd crew interactions here...this ep did give Tuvok, Chak, and B'Elanna a chance to interact in ways they havent been able to for a while...but...ok, the last ten minutes were kinda fun.

But as to the rest...ugh. WHAT were they thinking...

Ok, obliterating horrible ep from memory files...Obliteration complete. Prepare for ENDGAME ecstasy. ACKNOWLEDGED.

david g

Renaissance
Janey -- 17 May 2001, 06:27 GMT

I thought this episode was good. A lot of fun. Playing it the week before the finale? Well, that is definately debatable. But otherwise I really enjoyed this.

I like the Doc and Janeway interacting. I always have. I liked that we get the impression that the Doc knows the crew pretty well since he has to mimic a number of them throughout the show. Case in point: the ready room: she'd never settle on a planet and she'd never admit it but when the Doc says as Janeway, "I'm tired. Tired of the casualty lists. Tired of fighting with the slim chance we might make it back." or something like that we know he's right. No doubt he is sick of the casualty lists as well, he can only imagine how she feels.

I'm glad the Doc only got a smack on the wrist for diobeying orders. This is much different from "Flesh and Blood" when he actually deserved it. Janeway would go through hell and high water to save a member of her crew. It is only right that someone does it for her.

And what was he supposed to do? He was being monitered by the kidnappers. If he went back without the captain the crew would freak. If he told anyone what was going on the aliens would freak. If he followed Janeway's orders what would the rest of the crew say? "oh okay, here's the warp core, I guess we'll finish the trip without her." Yeah right.

He was very good in implementing his plan. And he had a great backup plan as well, nice to know he wasn't to bigheaded to think something wouldn't go awry. Using his recital piece was ingenious. And knew the crew was smart enough to figure it out. And *gasp* it wasn't Seven. Chakotay recognizes the piece, Tuvok notes it isn't flawless, Harry wisely suggests the first possibility: the comm signal (that's what I thought) which falls under his job description and Tom recognizes the possibility of a warp signature, which a good pilot should recognize. I love it when people get to do their jobs.

Which bring me to: OUR CHIEF ENGINEER!!! Oh my goodness she exists! I love it! She's on the ball, working hard, passes up a yummy lunch break with her "sweetheart" to do her job. It's nice to see this pregnancy hasn't slowed her down. And she got the warp drive up and running inside a week. Yeah! Go B'Elanna: engineer extraordinare!

I think Tuvok is a good security officer. I really didn't see him as inept. Once he figured things out he was on the Doctor right away. He was prepared to destroy the emitters, he jumped on scanning for the mobile emitter, the only thing that beat him was the Doc's undeniably physical superiority. Let's face it...were any of us prepared for that? And those were cool scenes too. It was a nice that someone remembered the Doc isn't restricted to the natural physical world when he isn't using his emitter. And I didn't expect the flip thing with any of them, especially the pregnant B'Elanna. That was just a riot.

But back to Tuvok. He was smart. When he and Tom caught up with the aliens, Tom beams to the Delta Flyer. Two targets instead of one, two firing frequencies instead of one; a good tactical manouver. And then he has Tom hightail it out of there with the warp core. First it presents a danger to everyone if it blows and second Voyager is s.o.l. if anything happens to it. Go Tuvok.

Janeway is a smart one. Her suggestion to the aliens that they could be seeing a holgraphic projection was a doozy! I almost expected that to be the case. But then I realized the Doc couldn't pull off doing that and inform the crew of the real scenario without showing the aliens what he was doing. He was lucky to pull off the music thing. It must have been awful though to sit there and listen to the Doc disobeying her orders, knocking people out and manipulating everyone just to save her. I wonder what she did when Tom kissed who he thought was his wife?

And I am glad she took him out for coffee in the end. For one, she doesn't socialize enough if he could only mention the two things we already know about her. I wish they had told us other things so she could appear to have more of a life than what we see (I mean anything - like rebuilding old fashioned space craft on the holodeck with B'Elanna - that would be cool).

But for another, I realized that she has never really spent any time with the Doc as he's "grwon up" per se. No one has really, not since Kes. When Kes was around he grew in leaps and bounds, but had someone to guide him. After that he was on his own. And then he began to teach Seven. But Seven had KJ's guidance as well. It is one thing to have subroutines for behavior, it is another thing to know how and when to do what.

I am not trying to justify all of the Doc's behavior over the years, nor imply he is inept at being human. But I think he could have used a little more guidance. I think, once he began exploring his possibilities, only wanted to feel like he belonged somewhere. And he's begun to. And I think he genuinely wants to spend time with the captain, if only to seek her approval. He says he feels like a part of the crew but he sees her spending time with everyone but him. Maybe he's a little jealous. And has a little fear that she may still see him as a only piece of machinery, she admitted as much two years ago, though a few weeks ago we could see this had changed. But anyway...

The confessional. Much better than I feared. I didn't understand the bit with Tuvok. If someone could explain this one to me, I'd appreciate it - but it was nice to hear Neelix's name mentioned! I liked that he would donate his emitter, a very generous act with his most precious possesion. I want to know what those logs of his say! (Did you notice the expression onHarry's face when the Doc mentioned them? He looks at Tom with this face that says "uh oh.") The first thing that lept into my head was Tuvix. Wow, two referances to that in two weeks! I bet there was a lot in that log, beginning with the destruction of the array, I'm sure. I'm glad he got rid of them. His cofession to Harry was very within character, and somewhat logical as the sax is a newer thing for Harry. A nice bit of continuity there.

As for the loving Seven thing - I'm just glad he finally said something. B'Elanna's face is classic throughout the exchange. And KJ turns to Tom, of all people, as if to say "did I hear right?" Of course all he could do is affirm it, he's known that for a long time.

I'll just say this one more time: B'Elanna is so cool. "No, I got him." That line, and its delivery ranks just after "Get the cheese to sickbay" and whenever she says "idiot!"

Okay, I'm done.

Surprisinly enough I liked it...
Pixie -- 17 May 2001, 06:39 GMT

even though I really had to roll my eyes a couple of times, probably cause I was laughing at the nits.

Things that cracked me up:

1. When Chakotay claims that "he hasn't earned the right to question my authority" Janeway would consult him or the senior staff on everything. Clearly this Chakotay must have been sleeping during Memorial, Omega Directive, Night, Scorpion, Dark Frontiers and few other episodes that escape my memory.

2. I thought it was funny that the two stiffs in the morgue were Chakotay and Kim.

3. I thought B'Elanna should have taken the food away from the ever expanding Paris.

4. That the Doc was worried that he still had friends even after his friends still stood by him after Author, Author and Flesh and Blood.

5. The Paris - Doc/B'Elanna scene was hilarious. That was the longest P/T kiss I ever saw.

6. I like it when the Doc confessed to Harry. He was so overacting. I did groan at Doc's 7 confession. I'm surprised Braga didn't write an alternate universe episode where Paris and Seven got together so that all the VOY human males fall at her feet.

There was more but I'm forgetting. I kept laughing.

I also liked that B'Elanna went to Chakotay when she questioned Janeway's orders. It's nice to see their bond. I really liked that B'Elanna got to be the engineer.

Oddly enough I liked that it was Paris that recognized the clue was a warp signature, not Seven or Harry. It worked.

I think that holograms shoud not be allowed to become sentient after Daren of Revulsion, and the Doc's superiority complex.

I am so not looking foraward to Endgame.

We already had our token Klingon ep.
Tim Holden -- 17 May 2001, 07:37 GMT

It would have been nice to see some more. Still I liked prophecy. The scenes with Tuvok & Neelix just had me howling with laughter. Priceless stuff.

Tim

Not to worry!
D'Alaire -- 17 May 2001, 11:05 GMT

It's on at the regular time: Saturday, Channel 20, 7pm.

I forgot!
Janey -- 17 May 2001, 12:03 GMT

Ayala speaks!!! Ya gotta love an episode where that happens because I can only remember one other one (Scientific Method). It was nice to see him.

And Vorik stopped by, annoying B'Elanna as much as ever!

Now thye've brought Ayala, Vorik, and Carey back...where the heck is Sam?

"and NO Opera!"
Deb47 -- 17 May 2001, 12:39 GMT

Okay, for reasons I can't fathom, the posting headers suggest people didn't like last night's ep.

So sorry, cause I did.

(Surprised?)

I liked the very ensemble feel to it. The interweaving of all the characters as they dealt with the problem of the Captain's seemingly inexplicable orders.

The tangled web of lies that the Doc had to keep up with, as he manipulated so many different people to fit his plan.

The Captain, trapped behind a forcefield but not deprived of her most powerful weapon, her intellect, her guile.

Oh, and her humor. From the VERY perturbed "I can't believe you woke me up" face at the beginning, to her "I don't socialize" conversation in the brig, to the look as he "didn't die" on the holodeck, to that final "and NO Opera!" (sorry Macs) comment in the end...

Ah, I'm happy!

Oh... and as for humor, do you think Tom wants to know if the "other" thing the Doc wants to confess is kissing Tom? And should he confess that TO Tom, or B'Elanna???

Yes, I did enjoy this ep.

Yes, the Doc "went against" the Captain's express orders/wishes, and learned that despite being a Hologram he CAN'T do all things at once.

Loved the exchange... "Voyager can do without a warp corp, it can't do without its Captain!" and her response... "Thanks to you, it doesn't have either, now!"

But, to be fair, the Captain also learned something. The Doc IS a hologram, programmed with thousands of scenarios, and he DID have a backup rescue plan if his original didn't work.

Sometimes, when we stick by the rules, people die.

Its when we break them, we find "other possibilities"... like B'Elanna forcing Janeway to go after Chakotay in season 1's "Manuevers".

The Doc was uniquely trapped. He was "under observation" at all times, and could only leave a message by tweaking his music.

I think, all in all, he did an admirable job.

Although... if I was the EMH..."I" would have deleted that file on "Janeway" long ago, myself... and as far as Confessions go... I probably would have skipped the wounded Targ/cutaneous eruption ones. (Although I DID LOL as I watched Tom's face/head tilt after hearing about Tuvok!)

Like I said, I'm sorry others were bored/enraged? I thought it was a hoot!

D47

Re: "I;ve got him"...
Deb47 -- 17 May 2001, 12:45 GMT

Made me think of someone picking up a slimey fish off the floor... "I've got him..." I don't WANT him, but her he is....

and then to the Captain... "Here YOU can have him!"

In my mind's eye, BLT already knows "who" Tom's been kissing behind her back!

D47

Flash! Mr. Potato Head & his Boy, Spud, Attack Voyager!
Mrs. Mac -- 17 May 2001, 12:48 GMT

Sheesh. Did anyone else connect the potato salad with the alien of the week? I just bet they had a good inside laugh over that one!

Overall, the episode was just an "okay" in my book. I suppose I was expecting something a little more cozy and endearing for the last regular season episode. Instead of cure-all nanoprobes we got the can-do-all holoemitter.

Chakotay should have been very alert the minute Janeway made her order about the warp core but he discussed it with no one. Not even Tuvok. However, B'Elanna recognized a wolf in a sheep herd the minute she spoke to Janeway. Therefore I have no sympathy for Chakotay winding up in the Voyager morgue. However, Harry deserved a better fate.

The best moment was the doctor's confessions, and B'Elanna's very dry, "I got him." One of her usual priceless moments in 3 small words. And who says you can't act with a few small lines?

And of course the word "OPERA" is a very appropriate ending to seven years of regular season episodes.

Mrs. Mac

well, he did say "yeah" in Basics II
Deb47 -- 17 May 2001, 12:51 GMT

And spoke a whole (short) sentence in "Fury".

But I agree, it was nice to see him speak AND get to fly the ship!

D47

Oh and
Mrs. Mac -- 17 May 2001, 12:53 GMT

wasn't the Ayala with a major speaking role? I just may faint.

Mrs. Mac

Did it ever occur to Doc to simply daydream?
Q -- 17 May 2001, 13:37 GMT

You know, like he did in "TTDS"? Fool the Potato Heads (do these guys have an official name yet?) by conjuring up some fake mission to swipe the warp core while in reality Voyager--with the Doc's assistance--are closing in on the PH's ship to rescue the captain.

Unspoiled for a change, I almost did the same thing but luckily the ep was redeemed by its comedy.
maggie the cat -- 17 May 2001, 13:53 GMT

I guess I didn't realize at first that it was intended to be a comedy. At the point where I was about to tune it out, I was finding it so lame and such a letdown after last week's ep. Not to mention the odd placement between Neelix' farewell and the finale.

I was pumped for the finale or finale lead-in, not fluff. Oh well...

Thursdays will be more productive after next week.
Nina -- 17 May 2001, 14:06 GMT

My first reaction, in spite of KM's marvellous acting during the teaser, was: "Oh, Lord. Not ANOTHER Doc and His Ego script!" But...I quickly realized what I was about to see was a send-up of "Doc and His Ego." After that I relaxed, laughed, and enjoyed myself.

My one bit nit: Why, oh why, can this hologram with obvious judgment lapses download the command codes into his ECH program at will? What are you THINKING of, KJ and Chak (when she's off the ship)? He's more dangerous than the enemy sometimes. My minor nit: Yes, he saved Janeway's life. It all came out well in the end. But Tom gets 30 days for insubordination, and the Doctor gets "time already served" in sickbay? I don't know how I might have written it instead, but it didn't quite work for me the way it WAS written.

However. Seven's face when the Doctor "confessed his love." Mulgrew, Beltran, Dawson - all caught the Doctor's mannerisms well enough to have me cracking up during their "holographic disguise" sequences. Mr. Potato Head Misguided finally seeing the light at just the right moment - that worked. So did the "Captain held captive," never looking like a maiden in distress awaiting rescue. Oh, I'm going to miss her after next week.

It was a keeper. Bring on "Endgame"!!!

"So, Doc, have you got anything else you'd like to confess"
Shadda -- 17 May 2001, 15:02 GMT

That's my favorite line. Deb, the way he said that had nothing to do with his earlier "kiss". It was way too sarcastic. In fact, he may not be aware that he kissed the doc instead of B'Elanna. They had not really had a chance to debrief at that point. He knew that the doc had been impersonating B'Elanna, but he didn't exactly know when. I would love to see his reaction when he finds out. Tom is the master of the reaction.

I enjoyed this one, will probably watch it again.

The fact that the doc got of easy once again bothers me. It makes Janeway look so weak and inconsistent. Does that make the writers weak and inconsistent. Once again Tom is the only one who has to pay for his actions. I think he has a case for discrimination.

Perhaps I'll write more later, gotta go to work once again.

Shadda

Would someone tell me why after 7 years
Roxanne -- 17 May 2001, 16:11 GMT

they haven't put non-tampering subroutines in the dr's program.

It was a bit funny at the end, but predictable. The doctor gets a slap on the wrist, and no other punishment. Tom gets 30 days in the brig for far less. Could it be the captain still has problems with him being a hologram?

Roxanne

Renaissance Man a mixed bag
Vickie -- 17 May 2001, 17:06 GMT

There were a few things that I really enjoyed in Renaissance Man. The character interactions we saw were, for the most part, excellent. I loved the Tom/B'Elanna scenes. Most of the Doc/Kathryn scenes were good, too.

There was a good ensemble feel to the episode, even if we were often seeing the Doc-as-other rather than the character him/herself. And, even Beltran and Wang seemed to be pulling their weight this week.

The scene where Doc confessed his sins was very funny. As several people have already mentioned, B'Elanna's "I've got him" was perfect, as was Tom's "Anything else you'd like to confess?".

On the down side, the plot was, for the most part, just stupid, and that's all I'll say about that.

I was also, like others, unhappy with the "Doc disregards direct orders, puts the ship and crew at risk, is totally unrepentant, and gets off with just a slap on the wrist" theme that we've seen before. It really annoys me that Doc wants all the privileges of being a "human," yet is unwilling to live by rules everyone else has to follow. Actually, it doesn't annoy me so much that he wants that, heck, that's just "human" nature to want to have your cake and eat it, too. What annoys me is that no one ever calls him on it and he's allowed to continue to operate that way.

All in all, a reasonably entertaining hour, but won't make my top 10 list.

Vickie

VOY 2nd time rule holds fast...Vickie, you put the matter perfectly
david g -- 17 May 2001, 17:35 GMT

I did love B'Elanna's line, "Ive got him."

It was a moderately enjoyable ep the 2nd time...but the best I can say for it, is this: RM is the best of S7's stoopid-comedy eps.

david g

Re: A slap on the wrist.
Janeway216 -- 17 May 2001, 18:00 GMT

Yes, I am one of those people that thought she should have confiscated his mobile emitter until they got home.

She could probably have court-martialed the Doctor for all the things he did. Dereliction of duty, impersonating a senior officer, stealing Starfleet property, disobeying captain's orders, assaulting an officer . . . these are not charges to be taken lightly. Granted, Janeway isn't one to go for formalities, but Doc deserved something more than just "Well, I'll consider the fact that you haven't left sick bay for a week time served."

216

I was thinking that ...
maggie the cat -- 17 May 2001, 18:30 GMT

with entirely different expectations it would be more enjoyable the second time around. So much for not being spoiled! And I'm hardly spoiled for the finale. Maybe I should be...

Aa bit of a letdown after last week.musing, but
D -- 17 May 2001, 18:39 GMT

I think it would have been better if they'd shown these two episodes in reverse order, but they probably didn't want a serious, sad episode immediately before the finale.

Fun to see the actors pretend to be some other character. I particularly liked "Torres" commenting on the fried chicken, and the "computer, add Lt. Torres's current medical profile".

They've really been pulling out all the recurring characters the last few weeks. When was the last time Vorik was on, Season 4?

Nits: Again they run into a species they should have left behind long ago. At least they finally mentioned being near the border of the Beta Quadrant (of course if the writers had bothered to do the math they would have had Voyager in the Beta Quadrant some time last season).

Since when is Ayala a pilot? And not just filling in, since he had on a red uniform. At least he got to speak this time.

I wondered about the red shirt, too
Vickie -- 17 May 2001, 18:53 GMT

D asked:

Since when is Ayala a pilot? And not just filling in, since he had on a red uniform.

I wondered the same thing. My first reaction when he came on screen was "Woo Hoo! Ayala! What a babe! And he talks!"

My second thought was, "Wait. Ayala doesn't wear a red shirt, he's wears gold."

My third thought was, "Well, maybe I'm mistaken, then. Maybe it's not him."

Once I read the comments here, though, and other people mentioned Ayala in the pilot's seat, I just had to shrug my shoulders and say, "Oh well."

Vickie

Sorry about the garbled Subject. Should be "Amusing, but a bit of a letdown after last week."(NIM)
D -- 17 May 2001, 19:19 GMT

Cross training?
Nina -- 17 May 2001, 19:34 GMT

Or am I being too kind by making that assumption? I seem to remember Seska's shirt color changing, too (blue to gold), while she was still a crew member. I chalked that up to "finding the right spot for all the Maquis" syndrome.

Speaking of opera!
Roxanne -- 17 May 2001, 20:11 GMT

If the doctor with his infinite knowledge doesn't realize he can't hit the high notes, then he'd better stop singing. I cringed through his whole opening sequence.

Picardo's talents do not include an operatic voice. I wish they'd realize that and quit using it.

Roxanne

That's the point, Roxanne!
Mrs. Mac -- 17 May 2001, 20:14 GMT

The doctor has such a healthy ego that he thinks he can do it all! Sing, pilot, get out of sticky situations, and get the girl with the biggest boobs on the ship.

Mrs. Mac

Better if they hadn't attempted a "Renaissance."
Janeway216 -- 17 May 2001, 21:12 GMT

This one made the rest of the crew look like idiots, and once again because he's a hologram Doc is better than the rest of the crew.

Otoh. We saw the morgue. We saw Ayala and Vorik (it's TNG's Seventh Season Syndrome!). We saw the Potato-Head People. My inner Continuity Demon is sated.

And still in the Goods, we did have the leap through the panel and the nice up the wall "Dark Angel" effects.

Janeway was lovely in this episode, even if I did notice a bit of a nit in the sequence at the end . . . the console she's standing by blows and knocks her to the floor, where she puts up her hands to cover her face from the sparks. A couple minutes of action later she uncovers her face and sits up, which just seemed a little passive to me. I guess it happened in editing.

But in the bads, again, everyone looked like an idiot for not figuring it out. Kudos to Tuvok, he did, but then he looked like a wimp. Who's to say that holograms are stronger than human beings? And also, who's to say that they can run up the wall like that. Come on TPTB, it was a cool sequence, but could you have made it a little less plausible?

Doc's confessional at the end was great . . . whoever couldn't figure out what Doc meant, he was talking about some sort of infection on Tuvok's thang. Although ::wrinkles nose:: it was a bit overdone, but I guess that's what Vejar wanted.

Speaking of the direction, I noticed a lot of Steadicam work in this episode, and it drove me nuts. I hate watching the camera jiggle around as the operator walks.

I can't think of anything right now but rest assured I will while I'm at work

216

Re: A slap on the wrist. Well all she did to Chakotay
Deb47 -- 17 May 2001, 21:38 GMT

in "Manuevers" was place a letter of reprimand in his file... AND call him a cowboy.

D47

Jason.
Deb47 -- 17 May 2001, 21:39 GMT

At least they "mentioned" it.

D47

Call me fickle but Ayala gets my vote for sexiest Voy male this week.
maggie the cat -- 17 May 2001, 21:41 GMT

Jason, I don't remember. What was TNG's penultimate episode? (nim)
Mindy -- 17 May 2001, 23:44 GMT

I liked it.
Mindy -- 17 May 2001, 23:55 GMT

Very durnk right nowk, guys. Alilx graduated today. Cried a lot. Drank toooo mchiu. See ya late.

Mindy

Re: "So, Doc, have you got anything else you'd like to confess"
Deb47 -- 18 May 2001, 00:11 GMT

Loved that line, Shadda.

I also loved it when the Doc downloaded B'Elanna's program. I sat here saying... "I hope he remembers she's pregnant." and LOL when "she" looked "down" and realized something rather obvious WAS missing!

Sigh.

As for that "master of reaction".... I think I already applauded that "look" he gave Tuvok when the Doc was confessing his (ahem) professional indiscretions!

I really like Janeway... even in this ep. (We will agree to differing opinions on her final scene... okay?)

The thing I liked, was her ability to keep "on course". She was always the "Captain"... arguing with the Doc via the comm to NOT disobey her... and yet planning what to do if/when he did.

Placing doubt in the Megalomanical Potato, Seducing the weaker Spudster, tweaking the Doc's holoemitter to try and bring down the forcefield, taking advantage when it finally did come down by rushing the console...

Yeah... she got blasted and "fell" down... and yet TPTB need to do that to remind us that no matter "how" powerful our masterful multi-tasking Queen is...

...She can still use a little help from her friends.

"I've got him."

In fact... so can a certain EMH who can't even hit all the high notes when he sings.

D47

Re: hardly spoiled for the finale...
Deb47 -- 18 May 2001, 00:24 GMT

I'm trying to be sooooo good, and then I "looked" at the pics on trektoday... today... and read the captions/synopsis/transcript of the promo...

Sigh.

I don't know if I can LAST until next week... and yet I hope it doesn't come!

Cuz once its come... then Voyager is gone.

Sigh.

On the fanatical point... I received my confirmation for 4 tix to the Cleveland con next week!

I think I'm going to see if my crew can pull a Tom Paris... you know... stand up, point to the air and shout..."Don't forget.... You're the QUEEN!!!!!"

D47

Janey, I with you on Tuvok...
Deb47 -- 18 May 2001, 00:39 GMT

I never felt this ep suggested he was inept.

In fact, he did fairly well, considering the people who could feed to him their own misgivings were on a slab in the morgue.

I also liked the scene with the Doc jumping through the wall. I think that's the first time we've seen him adjust his containment field since "Heroes and Demons" in season 1.

Your point about the Doc not having anyone around to help "him" grow since Kes left was well put. In fact, I think that is "why" Janeway finally decided to "socialize" with him. Not because "she" needed it... but like her contacts with Seven on the Velocity court... "He" needed it.

(The only thing she does for herself isn't "on" the holodeck. Its over dinner, late at night! )

Hey kiddo, did you get your confirmation today? We did.

D47

(She who has sworn fealty to the House of Janeway, these last 7 years!)

I guess the only one on the ship with a bigger ego is Chakotay. (NIM)
Roxanne -- 18 May 2001, 00:44 GMT

Re: "long ago"...
Deb47 -- 18 May 2001, 00:45 GMT

Well, D, we don't really know how far the Spud people have traveled. Afterall, we've seen 2 just a few "months" ago, trapped in the void.

I realize you could argue "they" should have never been "that" far... but once established in "this" sector, I think TPTB can be allowed to place them in proximity again.

D47

david, you know the old saying...
Deb47 -- 18 May 2001, 00:48 GMT

The THIRD time is the Charm!

D47

(Don't mind me... I thought "Inside Man" was pretty okay, and "Body and Soul" a HOOT!)

Speaking of fainting...
Deb47 -- 18 May 2001, 00:56 GMT

Am I right in thinking... after last night's ep... that the Voyager character that's kissed the most organic gentlemen is in fact...

The DOC?

In "Body and Soul"... he kisses the alien captain!

In "Rennaisance Man"... he kisses Tom!

Janeway has only bussed Jaffen, B'Elanna has only kissed Tom, and Seven has only kissed a simulated version of the real Axum, and a holographic Chakotay.

Hmmmmmmm.

Is there a left winged agenda inherent in the trek PTB's writings?

(Joke! I'm joking!)

D47

Congrats, Mindy...
Deb47 -- 18 May 2001, 00:59 GMT

But why you can spell "penultimate episode"? and can't spell "durnk" is a mystery worth of study!

D47

Not Jason, but I couldn't remember either so I looked it up
D -- 18 May 2001, 01:10 GMT

Assuming the shows aired in production number order the one before "All Good Things" was the one where Ro deserts to join the Maquis.

Walking (or dancing) on walls pre-dates"Matrix" -
D -- 18 May 2001, 01:19 GMT

I never saw "Matrix" but I knew I'd seen a similar scene - Fred Astaire dancing on the walls and ceiling, in one of his later, color musicals (after Ginger Rogers). May have been "Royal Wedding", but I'm not sure.

Preemptive Strike. (NIM)
D'Alaire -- 18 May 2001, 01:19 GMT

D@mn good ep, that one.

Oh, I'm a spoiler slut, never met a spoiler I didn't love.
Shadda -- 18 May 2001, 02:40 GMT

I was good with the West Wing though, did not spoil myself for the last episode. We can all rise to the occassion once in a while.

If you all do the "Your the Queen" thing you will confess here won't you?

Shadda

Overall I liked it, but I did have one little thing that bothered me.
Shadda -- 18 May 2001, 02:54 GMT

No, not the lack of punishment for the doc, though that did bother me. I had a problem with the line the doc delivered where he said that Voyager couldn't survive without it's Captain. Yes, it can. Yes, they would be devastated, but as for not making it because the Captain died, no. They would be upset, devastated as I said, but they would get over it and move on. I don't know why that got to me but Alan Arkin delivered one of my favorite lines when he said, in his persona as a psychiatrist, "we get better". And they would.

They moved on in "Before and After" and they would move on again. They would have more trouble without the warp core if you really think about it.

I love Janeway, but no one is irreplacable. They could get along without Seven, hey, in fact they did for 3 years They could get along without the doc, hey, they have on many occasions so the two characters they keep telling us they need the most they have gotten along without the most, hummm, I wonder what that means.

I suppose I should go cook dinner now

Shadda

I confessed about asking why we didn't see (more)...
Deb47 -- 18 May 2001, 03:07 GMT

nude MEN than women on Voyager at last year's grand slam... didn't I?

Anyway... I think Janey would rat me out if I didn't confess!

Do you have any questions you want me to ask Kate?

(For instance, did she think Janeway has a secret holoprogram featuring an escaped New Zealand Convict and the woman he kidnaps from a local spaceport? )

Or Roxann?

D47

Shadda, I took that line, the way Mrs Mac took his singing.
Deb47 -- 18 May 2001, 03:12 GMT

As proof that he does NOT know all, that he is NOT infallible.

Yes, they would "go on"... and yet... remember B'Elanna's impassioned plea to Janeway in season 1's "Maneuvers", or Kim & Kes' arguments to Tuvok in season 2's "Resolutions".

Sometimes... "going on"... isn't enough.

D47

Shadda, I know what you mean, but Icouldnt deal w/out Janeway, really! NIM
david g -- 18 May 2001, 03:34 GMT

:):):):):):):)
Janey -- 18 May 2001, 05:17 GMT

Got it. Read it. Memorized it.

I am so excited I have been dizzy since I I saw the envelope.

Haven't been able to think of much else actually.

(Young minion of the House of Janeway)

If you need anyone I WILL DO IT! I have no fear. NIM
Janey -- 18 May 2001, 05:27 GMT

Deb! KJ kissed KASHYK!!! NIM
Janey -- 18 May 2001, 05:37 GMT

Here, here! He's yummy! NIM
Janey -- 18 May 2001, 05:40 GMT

Re: "long ago"...
Janey -- 18 May 2001, 05:42 GMT

Weren't the Mr. Potato heads in "The Void" a science ship? They could have been deep space explorers and where Voyager is now near their neck of the woods?

Re: Shadda, I took that line, the way Mrs Mac took his singing.
Janey -- 18 May 2001, 05:54 GMT

To add on, the whole groups confrontation in "Night." Or for that matter "Coda," remember a part of that really happend.

I agree with Deb, going on isn't enough. Especially when it is this type of scenario.

If KJ has taught them anything, you don't leave anyone behind. Rule number three of being a starship captain afterall - never abandon a memner of your crew, whether it makes sense or not. HOw many bizarre and inane trips or situations has KJ gone on/through to save one of her one. Dang straight they'd do the same for her - at all costs.

I would not on it on my conscience that I left my captain behind with a couple of potato heads just so we could drive a little faster. If they did that the warp core would be kind of useless. Can you imagine them going back to Starfleet WITHOUT captain KJ? Puh-lease. The Maquis thought they were in trouble before they left? Choosing technology that if absolutely necessary you could rebuild over the life of your captain? It wouldn't be a homecoming party, it would be the courtmartial event of the millenium!

LOL, Mindy!
Jason -- 18 May 2001, 06:06 GMT

I can realte. I just hope this message comes out right... I usually have problems when I'm in that state myself... in just this short message I've had to press the 'backspace' button a few times myself!

Hey, it IS a Thursday night after all!

Jason

Ahh so.... quite true...
Deb47 -- 18 May 2001, 12:34 GMT

I guess I forgot to add "this season" to my supposition!

D47

Re: I WILL DO IT!
Deb47 -- 18 May 2001, 12:38 GMT

I've known fear... fear is my friend.

Watch for 4 crazy women from NY, Janey, and when we stand... just follow suite. (Maybe others will think we're trying to start a "wave"? )

D47

Re: Walking (or dancing) on walls pre-dates"Matrix" -
Sherry -- 18 May 2001, 12:58 GMT

I believe it was "Royal Wedding." If (major if) I remember correctly, the scene was set in a room of his character's hotel suite. I know they filmed the scene by attaching everything except Fred himself to the floor, then rotating the whole set 360 degrees.

It's easier now that computer graphics are playing a part!

Not only that but Crouching Dragon did it so much more beautifully. nt
maggie the cat -- 18 May 2001, 13:07 GMT

Than Matrix, that is. (What? No oops icon ) nt
maggie the cat -- 18 May 2001, 13:13 GMT

Re: cowboy!? . Must re-view just for that line alone.
maggie the cat -- 18 May 2001, 13:21 GMT

Preemptive Strike was a powerful ep and a fitting penultimate.
maggie the cat -- 18 May 2001, 13:38 GMT

I can still see Picard's face when he found out Ro had betrayed his trust. And Voyager gives us RM -- which should have been reversed with Homestead. Not that TNG didn't make mistakes too, of course.

Anyone else notice Beltran was the only regular not in that scene? (nim)
Malcom -- 18 May 2001, 14:15 GMT

If she has a crew that can't make it without her, then she has failed miserably as a Captain.
Shadda -- 18 May 2001, 15:43 GMT

And that I do not accept. Yes, the Maquis will have problems without her, but her logs would speak for her. There are plenty of other members of the crew that would speak for her, Tuvok for starters. A truly good leader has people around that can take over at the drop of a hat. That was my point. I never suggested that they wouldn't be truly upset and that things wouldn't be very different, but would they make it, you bet.

Of course, I wouldn't want the doc to leave her and any crew member would want to save her. That wasn't my point. My point was, they can get along without her or any other member of the crew. The suggestion that the reason the doc tries to save her is because the crew couldn't get along without her is ludecrous, he tried to save her because the crew would be really ticked at him if he didn't. They love her. That's why they would want to save her, not because they couldn't get along without her.

Shadda

Re: RENAISSANCE MAN --the weird tone threw me off at first
david g -- 18 May 2001, 18:00 GMT

I hated this ep the first time...but a re-viewing revealed its charms...i esp like the last ensemble scene and the Janeway-Doc let's-get-coffee-in-Buenos-Aires scene.

What do you make, btw, about Janeway's non-socializing thing?

But for me the tone was really all over the place. i think the ep should have been played more explicitly as high comedy...the first J-C section was just too dark...

by the way, i love that morgue!

david g

What I make of the "not socializing" line
Nina -- 18 May 2001, 18:36 GMT

First, she sounded to me the way anyone does while trying to put off an overeager suitor - wannabe best bud - etc. Since one can't very well say, "I just don't WANT to spend time with you!", one says something else instead.

We also know, from the fact that when they started off the Captain had her own dining room (partly so the captain can entertain dignitaries, but also to give her some privacy), that Starfleet has trained her not to socialize with her crew. She's let down her barriers a great deal more than she ever would have in the Alpha Quadrant, out of sheer necessity, but there are reasons why the need to keep her distance was drummed into her in the first place; and those reasons remain valid.

She's probably got one VERY short list of people with whom she can truly relax, and I don't think the Doctor is on it! Restful, he's not. But he doesn't know that...:-)

Re: Cross training?
tracy -- 18 May 2001, 18:52 GMT

Wasn't Ayala wearing a blue uniform in the episode "Scientific Method"

Re: Congrats, Mindy... ...Huh?
Mindy -- 18 May 2001, 22:23 GMT

Oy, Just went back and reread my message....holy cow, was I wasted!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! All I wanted was to post a quick note just to let you all know what I thought...

Sorry, everyone!

By the way, Alix "forgot" to tell me that she was graduating with honors and Phi Beta Kappa!!!! Didn't know about it until I saw the little * by her name in the program and then saw the footnote!

Mindy

Re: LOL, Mindy!...okay, I will explain my drunken state.
Mindy -- 18 May 2001, 23:26 GMT

Yesterday morning went down to Rutgers with my parents...we brought a "brunch" for Alix and her roomies, their parents, Alix's boyfriend and his family (he also graduated yesterday.) Brunch included champagne and vodka and orange juice and tomatoe juice. (Mimosas, Bloody Marys, etc.) We drank and toasted the grads.

Then Alix announced that their favorite bar was holding a brunch with free Mimosas, Bloody Marys, and bagels. Even though we had already eaten and toasted, the kids really wanted to go, so off we went...and the bar (great typical college dive!) was not chintzy with their boozy. (I switched to vodka & tonics.)

Then, after graduation, Alix went out with the "other side" of the family (don't worry, we are taking her out Saturday night) and my parents and I decided to go out ourselves...went to one of my favorite Italian restaurants...my parents are wine conniussers (spelling, please!), so we enjoyed a fine blend of Cabernet and something else...Cosa del Soso? (I am not the wine conniuseur, as you can tell...can never remember the names! Any wine c's--not attempting spelling again) out there who knows what I'm talking about, let me know. It's red and dry but with a slight sweet floral aftertaste.

I thought I was sober; anyway, between the three of us we had a bottle and 1/2, and my blackened salmon was cooked in a wine-base sauce....

I truly did not realize how gone I was! Honest! I have no head for booze, and being on anti-depressants doesn't help...exacerbates the drunk. Okay, I know I shouldn't drink on a.d.'s, but this was a special occasion.

Mindy

Re: Cross training? Good explenation.
Shadda -- 18 May 2001, 23:30 GMT

Personally, given the choice, I'd rather train under Tom to be a pilot/navigator then under Tuvok to be a security person. Not that Tuvok wouldn't be a laugh a minute as a supervisor.

Shadda

My main question re: RENAISSANCE MAN is this--
Mindy -- 18 May 2001, 23:30 GMT

Why, oh why, didn't we see this kind of ensemble acting and characterization during the past seven seasons?

This really was a team effort, and I really felt like I was seeing the crew ACT like a crew. We should have seen LOTS more of this type of interaction and show over the last seven years.

But I still liked it. Even now that I'm sober and rewatched my tape.

Mindy

Thanks, all! That WAS a great episode! (nim)
Mindy -- 18 May 2001, 23:32 GMT

Yes, it was ROYAL WEDDING, D, and nice remembrance! (nim)
Mindy -- 18 May 2001, 23:33 GMT

Oh, and btw, I could just SEE the Doc doing a Fred Astaire riff! (with Janeway!)
Mindy -- 18 May 2001, 23:35 GMT

It would be so cool seeing him a top coat and tails...perhaps LET'S FACE THE MUSIC AND DANCE. Janeway as Ginger in that feather dress!

Nifty!

Mindy

But his actions proved that he was acting on behalf of Janeway AND the rest of the crew.
Mindy -- 18 May 2001, 23:37 GMT

And how many times has any one of them broken regs and gotten the so-called "slap on the wrist?"

And there are precedents...Captain Kirk, for one.

Mindy

with you, Janey and Deb! (nim)
Mindy -- 18 May 2001, 23:39 GMT

That is wonderful!
Nina -- 19 May 2001, 00:08 GMT

(not that Mom was wasted - that Alix did so well!)

If you liked that moment, Maggie...
Deb47 -- 19 May 2001, 00:55 GMT

You're gonna love "Avatar".

I just finished them... wow!

D47

Really? Please give examples (NIM)
CAM -- 19 May 2001, 01:49 GMT

Janeway's socializing
Janey -- 19 May 2001, 07:17 GMT

It all goes back to the episode "The Cloud." In the beginning of the episode we hear Jaenway's log - when she is talking about how she's always been comfortable with the traditional distance between a captain and her crew. She wonders if it is enough now and then muses that perhaps that distance is necessary now more than ever. That perhaps they need her to be "larger than life." And she says she wishes she felt larger than life.

Then she deletes that last line. She can't afford to admit to being anything less. She knows she needs to be more of a captain than she has ever been before. And she does it. Any off duty things she does are alone, an official ship function, dinner with her first officer, and velocity with Seven (and rare late night coffee with Neelix). And those last three are more for them or the ship as a whole than for her, more often than not anyway.

Taking the Doc out for coffee is the same - its his need, not hers. Just like taking Seven to DaVinci's.

She is a role model through and through, but a lonely one.

Re: Janeway's socializing... True, but I also suspect...
Deb47 -- 19 May 2001, 13:22 GMT

That there has been "more" holodeck visits with the crew than we've seen or the Doctor has mentioned.

Recall her "goodbye" in "Resolutions"... when the thing she was going to "miss the most" was her time playing games on the holodeck with the crew.

Chakotay was seen once (end of "Macrocosm") inviting her to go skiing with a group on the holodeck, and she didn't seem surprised by it... just not in the mood.

I'd have preferred if, rather than "go for the continuity" with the Chak dinners and Seven "Velocity", the writers had thrown in other activities we "haven't" seen, to flesh out these "other" references.

The only problem with the continuity police, is if TPTB had done that, they'd have been ripped a new orifice for suggesting things we (gasp) haven't actually "seen".

Oh well.

C'est la vie. (sp?)

The end is near.

D47

What about "11:59"?
Shadda -- 19 May 2001, 16:24 GMT

In that episode several members of the crew are sitting around her cabin just chatting. The feel of it is that this happens quite often. There didn't seem to be any special reason that they would be there at that particular time. I think she socializes quite a lot. Look at her time in Fair Haven when other crew are there too. And I thought she was quite the pool shark with Paris second only to her.

I agree with Deb, I wish they would have mentioned the times she socializes that we don't actually see on screne.

Shadda

Re: What about "11:59"?
Deb47 -- 19 May 2001, 17:21 GMT

Well, Shadda, I did think of that... "but in the interest of saving my wordiness up for wednesday..."

I left it out.

I do agree, however, that the rest of the crew were "too" relaxed for that being the first/only time they hung out in the Captain's quarters.

In fact, I also liked the "exasperation" in Ensign Kim's voice when he heard about Lindsay Ballard being invited there for a dinner.

Made me think of his snarky "what about me" comment when Tom was (re) promoted to Lt. Not "surprised" that she was going, just ticked that it still wasn't "his" turn.

Sigh.

Just picked up 2 TV guides for the covers. If the article was laudatory (sp?) then I "might" have parted with the TWELVE DOLLARS!!!!! online TV guide wants for the 4th cover with Chak/Tuvok/Tom/B'Elanna/Neelix.

Since they have no taste, and insist showing it... 4 bucks already feels like too much to have given them!

D47

It's spelled "connaisseur"
Ivy -- 19 May 2001, 18:01 GMT

And congrats!

I can't believe I forgot 11:59! It's one of my favs! NIM
Janey -- 20 May 2001, 06:55 GMT

That's why I love ya, Deb! NIM
david g -- 21 May 2001, 03:03 GMT

Mindy, warm congrats to you and Alix! NIM
david g -- 21 May 2001, 03:07 GMT