The Coffee Nebula Board is for the discussion of Star Trek: Voyager and other sci-fi/cult shows. This is its Archive of episode discussions, top ten lists, fan fiction, and other miscellaneous musings.
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"Who would have thought that this eclectic group of voyagers could actually become a family. Starfleet, Maquis, Klingon, Talaxian, hologram, Borg... even Mr Paris." |
Natural LawWell the B story isn't bad (Natural Law *SPOILERS*) I saw Natural Law tonight (final spoiler warning!). Tom has to go to starship pilot traffic school. Hee hee hee hee hee! There was also no icky C/7 stuff. Thank goodness! I still have my J/C card around here somewhere so I was biting my nails over that one all day. Enjoy, Vicki I know that's what *I'm* waiting for. Read the script, could picture every facial expression. Bwahahahahaaa! One Small Tattoo for the Apple of Basic Sacred Ground that Drives you past Thirty Days Hey, i enjoyed this one...guess what? it's like Trek's version of...Melville's TYPEE!!! Anyway, this was a perfectly good entry in the Trek canon, an updated improvement of TOS's The Apple but on some levels just as pleasantly silly. I liked the Chak and Seven (as opposed to C/7) interaction...i thought the natives were as unhokey as they could be considering their implicit hokiness..I liked that Tuvok had a good plan (though was surprised it was his and not Torres's--should I have been?)...i liked the way the Ladosian pilot training of Tom was comedic rather than morally uplifting. To my mind, this is classic Trek--morally uplifting, banal, enjoyable. david g I'm on the fence on this one On one hand it's a decent episode which tackles some interesting PD issues (I wished they'd delve a little deeper into the common ancestry of the Ventu and their advanced cousins); but on the other hand I see a missed opportunity to follow up on Seven's hinted attraction towards Chak in "Human Error". The forced situation of having Chak and Seven stranded on an isolated planet was practically handed to the writers on silver platter. But as we all know "continuity" is a four-letter-word to B&B. Didn't care for Tom's Driver's Ed B-plot, but I guess the writers had to scretch the 45 minutes out. Encrypted orders? Why didn't Tom just turn off the Universal Translator? Mrumph? Huh? It's over? Well, I do that by this time next week, I'll be sniffling and dabbing my eyes--and wouldn't it figure UPN would go ahead and give that one away? As for the ep, well, it was all right. I liked the Ventu girl, and the Ventu in general--neat, Trek-ish AOTW who were interstingly done and unique. I loved seeing B'Elanna doing the scans and on the bridge--nice to see her there again. The b-plot with Tom was an amusing situation that bore some very nice reaction expressions... But it was slow--all of it, until Tom crashed the barrier. Chakotay was...boring. --Agh! Seven was much better, but even she didn't step things up a little. If they're going to do something with the two of them, they should have at least tried to pretend there was something more going on behind the lines. The Lendozi (correct??) were predictable and shallow. Worse, whoever wrote this thing didn't bother to do anything but basely exlpain that the Lendozi were yucky people once and so some other AOTW protected the nice primitive people. Yawn. If anything, I'd have liked to have seen them go a little deeper with the girl. I waited for them to, at least. Unfortunately, that had to be interrupted by the selfish Lendozi plot shift. The first scenes with Tom and getting busted, and all the way through the lessons, were worth a little grin, but it felt like the timing was off in all those scenes. The dialogue should have been...snappier, somehow. Something just didn't click right. The only part I really did like, of course, was when Tom popped off the course--but I always love the visuals of him speeding a turn and showing his stuff. I normally love eps like this, and I don't think I didn't like it. I just couldn't get into it as much as the writers didn't go very far into anything here. I was interested in the Ventu, but that interest had to be suspended on a single point for a little too long, I think. Or maybe it's because I'm tired. I was really hoping for something a little more...upbeat. Yawn. I think I'll go back to reading my new book, Refactoring: Improving the Design of Existing Code. That's more exciting than watching this limp noodle of an episode. This seemed like a fill-in-the-blank character episode Is it just me, or does it seem as though with a few tweaks to the writing, just about any two of the main cast could have taken Seven and Chakotay's place in this episode? Yes, we know Chakotay has an interest in anthropology. But any crewmember might have been able to figure out how to communicate. We would have lost the hilarious "tattoo" moments, though. The episode seemed... well-meaning. But I didn't get a sense of it being a "defining character" moment for anyone. Yes, Seven and Chakotay were resourceful and learned from the natives, who were wonderfully non-hokey. Tom "learned" a lesson in patience and when NOT to follow the rules, but to listen to one's captain. Once again, we see that Janeway ain't gonna leave tech in the hands of others. But overall, it wasn't desperately exciting. But now... *sniffle* I have to wait until next week to see *sob* one of the... oh blast.. *breaks down in tears* It's just a UPN preview. It's just a UPN preview... *wail* AC I owe Voyager PAIN! That really sucked. Boring, pointless drivel. How many shuttles are dead now? And the B plot was just horrible! I'm so glad they went the sitcom route. I was waiting for a laughtrack. Tom : Gosh Mr. Teacher i want to play with my friends! Teacher : NO! I'm going to make you and your Starfleet look like morons! Audience : HA! HA! HA! How nice to see UPN giving away the ending next week. Without any SPOILER warnings at all. Yuck. Eric Can someone explain what the preview showed? We don't get previews here (we always did for DS9 but never for Voyager ::grumble, grumble::). I don't necessarily need the ending given away a la UPN, but I don't even know what next week's ep is about so now I'm curious. Thanks! Vicki Unlike UPN i shall give warning! BIG SPOILERS.... Next week's episode is called Homestead. The Trailer showed that Neelix leaves the ship to stay with the colony of Talaxians he finds. __________________ That's in the preview, i have heard that he does NOT appear again in the series, but that is jsut rumor. I HOPE he shows up in Endgame at least in flashbacks! Eric Re: NATURAL LAW Discussion Area (NIM) Hi all. I liked it. Anyone surprised? Me, neither. Though had this aired anytime but the third episode from the finale I probably wouldn't have liked it as much. One thing I couldn't get out of my head was how different, hilarious and more character building this episode would have been if it had been B'Elanna and Seven instead. And it would make sense for B'Elanna to go to a Warp Mechanics conference wouldn't it? But then again she's only the Chief Engineer. Why would she go? But when all is said and done I kind of enjoyed the Chakotay and Seven dynamic. They did need a good bonding moment before series end. This is not to say I am anymore open to even the possibility of C/7. I think I enjoyed it because I expected the worst. They had far less chemistry than Tuvok and Tom but they should have. The last time they had any real interaction together he was a hologram in her 'simualtion.' In 'One Small Step' she thought he was an idiot for risking his (and hers and Tom's) life to study the past. He didn't even want her around in the beginning, he wanted to blow her out an airlock until KJ found a way to talk him out of it. The only real bonding moment between the two that I can remember was in the Omega Directive. So it was nice to see some resolution (sorry I had to use that word). I enjoyed Tom's experience. He is a little hotshot when it comes to flying, he knows he's good and he IS good. And he isn't even the only one that thinks so anymore. EVERYONE knows he' good pilot, he's gotten them out of a lot of sticky situations with his skill. This was about his ego and his patience. His ego gets a little bruised and we know he isn't a patient guy. He's a "punch your way through" type of person. Sometimes a body has to learn to slow down and notice what's important, admire the beauty, smell the roses. Just ask Seven. The Doctor was on for about two seconds and that scene was one of the few that stand out. The Doctor says something like, "the salve healed the fracture and the cut. I'm impressed." Amazing how you can see character growth when a person is only one for a minute. The technological wonder is in awe of a primitive medical treatment and says so. This from the holodoc who spouts serenades about his own accomplishments and has complained about barbaric medical treatments in the past. Good holodoc. I loved that Ventu girl. She's the kind that'll shake things up a little. An explorer. A little voyager in her own right. A young lady living in a sheltered world, seeing more is possible, is curious about it, but remembers what is important in life. She reminded me of Kes. Kes would have done wonders for Seven I think. This is shorter than most of my episode musings for one major reason. The promo. Though I knew it was coming, and have talked about it here, I think I mentally blocked the fact it was actually going to happen. There I was watching a low key episode, la la la, all is hunky dory and then the promo comes on and I burst out crying. Literally. I had to laugh at myself for being so silly about it (though biology may have influenced my emotional receptivity, heaven help me during the finale). Next week is going to be AWFUL for me. The most emotion I felt ... was when the promo for next week's episode appeared. I felt a tear well up! Oooooo Neelix please forgive me for the early days when I wanted to shove you out an airlock!!!! Mrs. Mac NATURAL LAW Discussion Well it wasn't baaaaaaaaad! It's wasn't great either. It was a bit too predictable that Chakotay would become the one to develop a relationship with these people and that Seven would be all work and no curiousity. It fits the typical pattern. On the same vein, we just KNEW that Seven would have a need for their assistance somewhere along that would result in her understanding of their culture. Again, predictable. The Borgette afraid of a little thunder and lightning? A little convenient. My opinion of the dynamics between Seven and Chakotay haven't changed. As someone mentioned in a previous thread, it could have been any two crewmen and it would have worked the same, except perhaps Chakotay and Janeway. Both would have been infinitely curious about the culture of these people. Speaking of the natives. I thought they were darn good! Not corny or stereotypical. I was a tiny bit put off by the way the natives were the ones hauling the ship fragment to a receptive area while Chakotay and Seven walked alongside. Chakotay had a broken leg but could have monitored the position while Seven helped out with the manual labor using her all-powerful nanoprobed arms. It reminded me too much of early explorers using slave labor to clear brush. I enjoyed the amusing drivers test "B" plot. I was hoping to see Paris wearing a little ribbon at the end, achieving his graduation from class in spite of the little detour he took! It was an okay episode but still it felt a little uneven. I can't put my finger on it. Mrs. Mac Did you know Kim was originally to be stranded with Chakoaty? But, through the rewrights, somhow Seven replaced Kim. Well, like AC said, you could have put anyone with Chakoaty for this show. The show was just OK, what a let down from the last two episodes. It just ran along at a steady pace, nothing exciting until Tom saves the day in the last 30 seconds. I don't know, this one does not inspire me. Well, next week, the big sob! But why show this one next week and not the week before the finale. The following week's story sounds as lame as last night's. Oh well, Di This is how we lead up to the big finale?!? Natural Law wasn't a bad episode, it was just boring as h*ll. I can't even manage to work up the enthusiasm to talk about it. I've decided that before I head off to the Nebula Odyssey I need to re-watch some of my early seasons' favorites in order to regain my enthusiasm. Vickie B-O-R-I-N-G Despite a lively room of people watching this show, even our MST3K antics couldn't save this one. Best scene: Tom & Cap'n K and Tom and B'E and Harry, the stuff with the instructor dragged. Moby Chick Kate Mulgrew says we're intelligent! So THERE, Herman! More or less seriously, I thought "Natural Law" had two problems. First, the A plot has been done over and over in Trek. That doesn't mean it can't be done again in some new and exciting fashion, but - this wasn't it. Second, pacing. Draggy, picking up in the final act. But, not a bad episode. I would much rather have had ANYBODY but Seven as Chakotay's stranding partner, not because Jeri Ryan didn't play her part well (she did) but because I'm just tired to death of Seven shows. Question about her "Borg fail safe" for strong emotions: she was, or should have been, pretty scared for awhile there. Does that fail safe only "work" when the emotion (I use the word loosely) in question is sexual arousal? If so, why didn't it kick in when the Doctor offended Seven so by becoming sexually aroused while occupying her body? (I'll even supply an answer to this one. "Because until 'Human Error,' her fail safe was dormant." I find that hard to swallow, but it's the best I can do.) Actually I was very much in Tom's corner on those flying lessons. I thought the flying instructor was annoying, the society ridiculously bureaucratic (and I RUN a bureaucracy for a living too!), and Tom's delight in carrying out the Captain's orders near the end of the script an absolute hoot. Now, THAT part of the episode I enjoyed! (I also enjoyed B'Elanna twitting him as she left for shore leave. That's the way I always enjoyed seeing P/T...as friends teasing each other.) I also liked it that the up-to-date natives of the planet (I won't even try to remember what they're called) didn't hesitate to exploit their genetic cousins, and that they used force against Voyager without warning. I saw their treatment of Tom, even though it was played for humor, as a foreshadowing of their society's arrogance. Tom's got some vanity about his piloting, yes. Quite a lot of it, in fact. End of rant! And here I thought I'd come away lukewarm on this one. Guess not. Seems Im the only one who liked this one I thought it was workmanlike and banal...but pleasant, enjoyable, relaxed, and very, very Trek..still, Mrs Mac, I agree about the "slaves" pulling he shuttle about...what was up with that? I really loved the Ventu girl...there were many nice moments. I liked the gestural language of te natives. I liked that they were peaceful and not violent. I was glad it was Seven there because she wouldnt automatically begin idealizing these people. The moment with the Ventu girl touching Seven's Borg eyepice was nice, too. I really loved that character. I also laughed my head off at the little scene in the Transporter room where they all make fun of Tom. See how B'Ellana cocked her head at Tom before being transported? LOL! I agree that this wasnt the most riveting ep of Trek, but I enjoyed it for being quiet and steady. david g Didn't they give away the Kes send-off as well?! (nim) Let this be a lesson, ladies When scampering through the jungle, bag the Frederick's of Borg high heels and stick with Timberland footwear; girls tripping over inconvenient vines was passé even in Johnny Weissmuller Tarzan movies. So with only a few more episodes to go, we get a tired story that made UPN's running promo about killer Tampons seem gripping. I yearned for the Resolutions monkey to come swinging through the jungle. At least he had some energy. And better dialogue. Ack. You know, david, more kudos for Dawson for being one smart lady. You said: I also laughed my head off at the little scene in the Transporter room where they all make fun of Tom. See how B'Ellana cocked her head at Tom before being transported? LOL! --------------- Now THAT is acting. These people get on a stage, stand still, and then someone yells, "CUT!" The actors walk away and later on in the computer their particules disperse. Usually the actors just stand there. It's nice to see someone REACT as if they really were being transported, as you suggested, david. Now that's one smart actress! Big thought into such a small action. Mrs. Mac What kind of footwear was 7 wearing? I didn't even notice! High heels? Or did she have Starfleet issue boots on? Mrs. Mac Re: Let this be a lesson, ladies Quince said: So with only a few more episodes to go, we get a tired story that made UPN's running promo about killer Tampons seem gripping. Yes, as usual UPN got it right. Considering the young male audience they claim to play to, the Tampons Killer news headline was just perfect (sarcasm dripping). Mrs. Mac Reading during the commercials is such a good idea. I completely missed that promo, and I'm glad. UGH. If I wasn't reading, I was teaching George the YAM Tomcat that he will NOT nip the human's arm because he is displeased that when she wears shorts she has a slippery lap. First 90 F day in Maine, and clearly my little boy does not remember his brief previous acquaintance with summer! MOBY CHICK!! LOL Malcom! NIM Re: Did you know Kim was originally to be stranded with Chakoaty? That just sounds like bad slash fanfic!
Tim Couldnt agree more, Mrs Mac! Hail Torres! Hail RD! Sounds good to me, Tim! No, I liked it for the same reasons you and Nina (to a lesser extent) did. Plus "no icky C/7 stuff". I don't know who I stole that from so I can't credit the source I also liked Tom's low tech solution for a change. When in doubt, blow it up! It wasn't great --just a low-key, enjoyable 45 minutes. But I will have to rewind and catch those killer tampons. Re Seven's fear I think it's a good bet that the "srong emotion" techobiobabble thingy is both a euphemism and never to come up again. OTOH, I suppose we could accept the idea at face value and get ensnared once again in the FH/SF silliness of someone falling for her own custom-designed holo-brator. Oops that was another thread Euphemisms can be wonderful. Like a certain politician who said women don't belong in combat because they get "infections"? Er, predictably recurring "infections"? Whatever one's position on that hot potato, the gentleman's excessive delicacy cracked me up. Moby Chick, will have to remember that one (NIM) I never know how to feel about TATTOO. NL seems like an improvement to me. Do you guys like TATTOO? I always feel that the ep makes the racist point that these white aliens (readable that way) gave the Indians all their skills and gifts. Boy I am turning into Mr PC this week. Not my intention...anyway, do you like TATTOO? david g Speaking of which...hae the crew been, well, getting any? Other than Paris and Torres...have the crew been getting any? I assume Kim did with Lyndsay Ballard and that bad DISEASE actress babe... but who else? ok, Janeway and Jaffen. Anyone else? Am i missing something? Does this query squick you guys out? I just really wonder if we're meant to assume that the crew just using the holodeck the way some use pornography or what have you. remebering Chak's lines from SF...or was it FH? david g Re: Reading during the commercials That's a valuable lesson to teach him! Now, if I could just teach Phantom the MAM tomcat not to nip people when he's thirsty... Sherry Well, I've always assumed that Chakotay and Riley Frasier... ... did more than have a meeting of minds in "Unity". Chakotay and Seska... but I'd say that was probably over before they got to the Delta Quadrant, from the way it's referred to. Harry popped back to an alternate universe Earth in "Non Sequitur" to share a bed with Libby. You think maybe they did more than just sleep? And then there's Kes and Paris Next? Jules Be as PC as you want, it doesn't bother me! Now, what I thought happened - and it's been awhile since I really paid attention to "Tattoo" - was that the hunting tribe the aliens befriended became the ancestors of all humans. With Chakotay's tribe being the (oh dear, is this going to be thin ice?) "chosen people" whose traditions carried down the most accurate memories, legends, whatever, of that critical visitation. "Tattoo" had to grow on me. My initial reaction was, "Hokey." I've since managed to embrace it as part of Chakotay's back story, and since I love the way his character was originally envisioned I've started enjoying the episode in reruns. Sigh. That reminds me. Poor Roxy won't have any socks to go after once Mac starts walking around barefoot. Mrs. Mac With interest! (spoiler) I was furious with them for the preview with Neelix's departure last week! At least, IF this preview is accurate (which we all know isn't guaranteed from UPN), it looks as if he'll get the attention he deserves. Unlike Kes's last true episode, when she was rushed out in the last five minutes. That still ticks me off! Def UNITY provided some, shall we say, commingling... i love that scene btwn Riley and Chak...GREAT episode, 2nd only to SCORPION I, i think... yep, Libby, check (let's hope she was good at SOMEthing...ooo, lordy i am getting offensive..sorry.) Ok, does either of Paris's nonTorres flings count? In one, he's a salamander-man. In the other, it doesnt *really* happen. But why not just let it all in. Hmmm...what's Chak been doing since Riley? O, how about Chak in UNFORGETTABLE? for tat matter--the Doc? david g Call me shallow ...but I like Tattoo. It offers some outstanding opportunities for gazing at Chakotay's handsome face. I also liked the Chakotay backstory. Vickie The same thing occurred to me... ...about Seven with the Ventu pulling the ship. It didn't bother me about Chakotay--his injured leg and the crutch he was using had already been so prominent that it was an established problem. But it did sit wrong to see Seven walking alongside as well. In one sense, Chakotay's getting involved with the Ventu was predictable; but it was also (gasp!) in continuity with his interest in anothropology. I saw Seven's reaction to the thunderstorm as a result of the Borg being so used to spacecraft and technological surroundings. When a group of Borg are on a planet, I doubt that they pay much attention to nature, weather, and the like. When a storm breaks out around them, their link pretty well tells them to ignore it. Seven has spent most of her life on ships, so she's reacting to an unfamiliar natural phenomenon. In the spacecraft-centered culture of Starfleet, more people than we expect might have this kind of reaction. Chakotay, whose family lived in a low-tech settlement, would probably be used to it, but that might be unusual. Sherry Would that be Chakotay's backstory or his backside, Vickie? Of course the crew has been getting some! ...and failing to include this in the story lines is one thing that I'll never forgive TPTB for. Or is that "one thing for which I will never forgive TPTB?" I mean first there was the "consolation for the grief of getting stuck in the DQ" sex, then there was the "ohmigod we're out here all alone, hold me" sex, then there was the "hey, you're kind of cute over there at the next duty station" sex followed by the "lets get married and settle down" sex and the "my biological clock is ticking lets have a baby" sex. The crew of Voyager was having so much sex that it had to be nearly impossible to film around it! Neelix should be running a day care center, for gosh sakes! Stupid PTB. Grumble, grumble. Vickie Reminds me of "Prelude to Foundation." Picked up a copy at the "cat cart" and re-read it a few months ago, and I remember the protagonist being caught in a wilderness area of a highly developed planet during a winter storm. He was a guest there, and his hosts were frantic that he would panic and die - being out in snow and cold and wind was, to them, almost certainly fatal! Since his home-world wasn't anywhere near that developed, he neither panicked nor died. Nor quite understood their reaction to finding him alive afterward. I still enjoy an occasional dose of Asimov. Backside, backstory, as they say on the commercial, "It's all good." Tee hee...but... haven't I read that the backside belonging to stand-in? Because RB said "NO" and meant it to filming that scene himself? Re: Call me shallow I won't call you shallow, Vickie. I think Tattoo was a great character episode for Chakotay. I don't DISlike the backstory but the reason it ranks as one of my favorite Voyager episodes (other than the fact that it was Chak-centric and we get to see those wide wide shouldres.. sigh:D) is the quality of Beltran's acting. It was wonderful...... these kinda episodes show the man wonderful talented as an actor..... Tattoo...... one of my faves!!!!! Re: Tee hee...but... Yes, you're right, Nina. At the Vulkon where we saw RB, he said he didn't object to showing his backside, but that at that particular moment, his backside was not in good enough shape to be put on public display. So, he had a "butt-double." But hey, if I can accept the fiction that Chakotay lives on a space ship, I can accept the fiction that it was his backside we saw on the screen. Vickie And that reminds me of Asimov's Elijah Bailey IIRC, Bailey had severe panic attacks whenever he was in the open countryside or just outside the protective bubble or whatever Asimov put over his cities. What's this -- cat cart? Cat cart is a used book stall operated (without attendant, honor system) by a local animal shelter. I've come up with some genuine treasures there over the years (it's in the public area of a shopping mall) at 25 cents for a paperback and 50 cents for a hard cover. Once I found the YA novel that I remember as the first full-length book I ever chose and bought for myself; somewhere along the line my original copy had disappeared. It was like meeting an old friend. Not much to add on this one AT least unlike other crew encounters with a more primitive society no one here thought Chakotay and Seven were gods, as happened to Torres in Muse and Picard in the one where he, Riker & Troy interact with the proto-Vulcans). One thing I though was interesting was the Prime Directive from 3 angles - Tom having to take the course because they are required to comply with local laws; Janeway talking about their requirement not to leave technology behind; Seven and Chakotay trying not to expose the stone age population to advanced tech. If noting else I think Seven finally grasps why that particular rule exists. I can't figure out how the natives are supposed to be advanced enough to control fire, make garments and hunt yet not have any sort of vocal communication. Nice to see the crew got shore leave. That's what I call a positive attitude! You just reminded me of a nit, D. Why did Chakotay say the life signs of the Ventu were "human"? I'm sure he only meant a "humanoid species," but it sounded strange just the same. The Ventu are no more "human" than Tuvok or Worf. Or did I hear him wrong? And, agreeing w/you Sherry, it's continuity from SURVIVAL INSTINCT. Seven is pretty shaken up about being outside alone in that ep too...and that leads her to reassimilate that unfortunate Borg "Away" team. david g O Vickie, EYE would never call you shallow for that! Call me Shallow, then, too. Re: Cat cart-- What a great idea! nt One way VOY is unique n the Trek canon is its fascination with flashbacks, as TATTOO demonstrates Favorite Son, Mortal Coil, Thirty Days, Lineage, and Tattoo--o and Gravity--all try to show us the crew at another point in their lives. VOY is obsessed with character development...in SOME ways! david g There oughta be a LAW! What a waste.... ...here we are in the final stretch after all these years and they waste valuable time on yet another "Seven learns a fricken lesson" ep. Geesh. And yet another prime directive type ep too. I mean the prime directive basically went out the window to save two crew members from being stranded. I thought that the crew was expendable when it came to that. What's more important two people or an entire culture! And what was with that empty shoulder box Chuck managed to grab before they beamed down? I thought it was special survival equipment, instead it seemed like a poorly designed storage box for things they would collect later. Or maybe it was a carry-on for a pet rabbit. Seems to me he could have grabbed something more valuable then an empty box to carry stuff they find in. Don't get me wrong it wasn't what I would call a really bad episode, it was just a waste when they should be tying loose ends together before the finale. I kind of liked the way DS9 built up to their big ending. What does Voyager plan to do, tie it all together in three episodes! (okay one is two hours) I did like how Tom saved the day at the end, showing just what an excellent pilot he really is. Funny how his character grew on me over the years. In the beginning I could not stand Tom, now I like him a lot, same with Mrs. Paris (B'Elanna) :^). Later, Mike This thread and soup are mutually incompatible.... starting with Nina, I've just been cracking up. Who could forget "infections" and the look on his face when he said it Love the rundown on Paris' lovelife. Hey, the surprise romance -- Paris commits adultery with Seven. Has Trek ever even taken on adultery? I don't remember. Is this the final frontier for Trek's uncharacteristically tradionalist views when it comes to sex? Cripes Tom even claims to avoid holo-bation after getting married. Vicki, you've raised one of my biggest Voyager gripes from almost episode one. Supposedly lost in the Delta Quadrant for 70 years and nobody's attracted to anybody!?! What, they all take vows of chastity? There was that one episode way back with the couple kissing in the lift. A perfect scene -- natural and unpretentious. Just there. Normal life. No big sexploratory messages and issues! I hate when UPN does that... ...gives away to much about the next episode. I wanted to be surprised! I've made it a point to avoid spoilers. And don't even get me started again on our local UPN news! Big deal another Jeri Ryan interview to get YAMS to watch the news[yawn]. Mike You can be... PC as long as you don't yell at me for my taste in music, or lack thereof I wasn't crazy about Tatoo -- a little too Chariot of the Gods for me. But Beltran did a nice job even though young Chak was just another sullen teenager. Like somebody else above, I thought these "gods" were supposed to be the ancestors of Chak's people. Hey CNDC, I don't remember any killer pontoon ads in DC...(NIM) Hmph. Of course they count. Certainly our Tom was flirting enough with both Janeway and Kes at various points in the early seasons. The intent was there, even if we had to head into wild and wacky story scenarios to produce the offspring. Maybe you can discount the AU marriage to Kes (though I'd hardly have called it a fling), but the salamander antics with Janeway were - hard though it may be to credit it - in the "real" Trek universe, and we have the three little baby salamanders to prove it. They even have action figures. Sniff. Do you think they'll show up for the final episode. They were more highly evolved than either Mum or Dad, so a little thing like 70,000 light years needn't necessarily stop them from showing up at the celebrations. Jules Was this really a Seven Learns a Lesson ep? Im not sure I agree with you, Mike. Hmm, it seems to me that this was a Vouager does the right thing by a culture it could have trampled on...it reminded me of CARETAKER, and of the bits in DAY OF HONOR pertaining to that vengeful Borg-afflicted AOTW. i dunno, it wasnt a superlative ep or anything, but i liked it--it seemed very Trekkish to me. I agree that more finale-directed stuff should be happening now...but in a way i enjoyed this ep more than the much better FRIENDSHIP ONE. david g I happen to love the Tom-Kes romance in Before and After, by the way. And i dont think McNeil was THAT good again until this season's LINEAGE...in some ways, though P/T is good when it's really good, i kinda preferred Tom and Kes. david g Sometimes I forget Tom already has kids of a sort ... ...and Katie too. And not even a card on Fathers Day or Mothers Day [sniffle]. Mike ...more than ready for the end of the series, based on this post and your episode comments. I'm with you. I'm ready for a new series when I think of all the missed opportunities TPTB have had over the years with Voy. At least on DS9, TNG,and of course TOS we knew the crew were getting some. Why even those stuffed shirts Captain Picard and Odo sowed some wild oats now and then...no, not together!...geesh the minds some people have Mike PS-maybe they'll be a wild crew orgy in the next to last episode...you think? It was so much easier for me to believe than P/T ever has been, even at its best moments. So NATURAL. David, Seven did learn to stop and smell the roses (and about that force field dome)... ...or maybe it was Seven learned "to stop and look at the the beautiful waterfalls" Yeah, I would have to say it was a 'Seven learns a lesson' ep...amoung other things. And you know, David, I've been thinking more on this ep (slow day at work). Was it really right to leave that culture under the force field? Wasn't that "unnatural" for them to evolve properly? How could they ever develope normally and evolve shut off like that artificially from others. Seems against the prime directive in a way, The need for the force field may have passed and now it may be just a prison for them...a gilded cage...even a paradise like prison is still a prison. I bet Kirk would have destroyed that force field. My deep thought for the day. Mike - there was a TOS ep slightly similar to this After a day of thinking about it, I liked it more than I realized at first... although I'm still waiting for something to happen. It wasn't THAT bad...just wasn't THAT good, either. Lots of nice character bits...loved the amusement B'lanna, Kim and Neelix got out of Tom's predicament. Just had a thought....wonder if RDM got a speeding ticket and had to go to a driving class (which they do in Los Angeles as part of the punsihment) and this was a way for the crew to gently rib him about it? As for the main story...well, I think part of the problem is the way UPN promoted it. (Oy, wait until they start promoting BUFFY!) It was really a story about the Prime Directive and First Contact, sort of like the TNG episode with Picard and the alien trying to talk to each other in analogies. I actually thought the primitive aliens were very interesting, and I liked that they imitated Seven and Chakotay via the tatoo and the metal headbands. We never knew what they actually thought Seven and Chakotay were, but I think one of the implication was that they were perceived as gods. Not being a Beltran fan And maybe I'm dumb, but I couldn't figure out the sign language beyond the "thank you" and other basics....I wouldn't equate a big rock with a mountain so easily...it might have worked better showing a bit more frustration in the communication lessons, as in that TNG episode I refererd to above. There wasn't even much for Ryan to sink her teeth into, and you all know that I'm a fan of hers....but even I am a little tired of the "Seven gets a lesson" episodes; it makes sense that she would discount a primitive culture, and the lesson about appreciating the abilities of a non-technological socety is fine, but we've seen it before. With all the whisperings and speculation about a C/7 romance, we could have at least had a sense of something between them, couldn't have we? At the least, Seven should have been a lot more uncomfortable being stranded with Chakotay given her experience with his holgram in HUMAN ERROR. But they seemed like strangers shipwrecked together; they didn't even act like friendly crewmates, and don't even mention acting like possible lovers. Oh well. I'm going to stop now, as I feel a rant coming on about the episode, and I don't feel like going there right now. I'll see if y'all have posted things that I'm thinking and that I can comment on instead. Next week looks like a tearjerker. (Yes, I'm with Janey on this one. I LOVE Neelix/Ethan Phillips.) Mindy ...would be afraid of some thunder and lightning either; made no sense to me. A small thing, but indicative of how the writers don't think think things through. Mindy Thinking of TOS's THE APPLE? Mike, I do agree that seven learns lessons here...i thought that part was well done. I thought the rapport she had with the Ventu girl was lovely. I just meant the ep seems to me more Trek-themed than Seven-themed--more a Trek morality play than a Seven ep. o well...that's the spin i wanna put on it, anyway. i love TOSey eps, i must say...why i love Distant Origin and the 37s. and Gravity. david g I can't believe I'm saying this. Mike I disagree! MIKED: And you know, David, I've been thinking more on this ep (slow day at work). Was it really right to leave that culture under the force field? Wasn't that "unnatural" for them to evolve properly? How could they ever develope normally and evolve shut off like that artificially from others. Seems against the prime directive in a way, The need for the force field may have passed and now it may be just a prison for them...a gilded cage...even a paradise like prison is still a prison. I bet Kirk would have destroyed that force field. Old pal, I'm afraid I have to disagree. I believe it was the correct decision to redeploy the force field. There was nothing wrong with the way those native people lived and there was no reason to interrupt their way of life. They appeared to be resourceful and content. The force field is not a prison to a group of people who don't even know it exists. Even if they knew about it they had no means to explore beyond it. Aren't there tribes on earth that were wiped out once "civilization" crept into their villages? I think it was fairly clear as well, that the people who desired to drop the forcefield and take advantage of the resources beyond it, had little interest in the indigenous people. They were interested in pillaging the land, in my opinion, and that can't be good. Mac. Bu SURVIVAL INSTINCT establishes her fear of the dark, Mindy! No bubble, the city was completely sealed up. No bubble, no skylight, no windows, nada, zip. And no large rooms or hallways inside the city and certainly no auditoriums or concert halls. Asimov's two robot detective novels are my favs of his. Data was *definitely* ripped off from Daneel. And I enjoyed the contrast between the claustrophia of Earthers in the first book and the agoraphobia of the Aurora Spacers in the second. Which wasn't just about personal space but about the degree of privacy and social contact allowed/encouraged in a culture. I've decided the three little darlings are actually the beginning of the Q After all time and space have no meaning to them. They figured out how to create more of themselves, they are very advanced. Yep, I like that idea. Shadda Well, there weren't any on Channel 4! (NIM) Thank goodness!! Between you and Jules, Shadda I'm going off-line laughing. Propositioning his own grandmother, indeed! And "completing the set" of women in the opening credits? Come ON, Tommy! You can do it, even with only 2 episodes plus the finale left to go! And with a Borg incubator, Tom could father a child with each woman in the cast. There's still time if we cross the incubator with Doc's mobile emitter again. Well, I really liked it! I really liked NATURAL LAW. I thought the whole episode worked pretty well, mostly because of its emphasis of a natural balance between the story lines. So often you would expect some of the elements seen in NATURAL LAW to be overdone. The Ledosians came off sympathetic and the firefight was well measured rather than an over the top late addition to the episode. Seven's initial inability to adjust was very understandable and a nice throwback to "Survival Instinct". Anyway, I didn't think this episode was dull, i was interested in everything it had to offer. Unlike the last few episodes, everything seemd to exist in harmony, instead of specific plot elements trying hard to overshadow each other such as in the last two episodes. A very good episode, one of my favorites of the season. Jason Re: Turning off his Universal translator... Because it wouldn't have been "enough", in case the alien's culture also had a universal translator? D47 Re: "Its just a UPN preview" (I haven't read anything about this, so DON'T correct me if I'm wrong! AC, I keep hoping that scene is from "early" in the show, not late... still... even though "it was" late in Worf's "leave the ship" moment in that TNG episode... he did come back in the next episode! (fingers crossed) D47 Re: "The only real bonding moment between the two..." Don't forget "Survival Instinct", when he counseled her on what to do about the Borg drones... "Letting them die on their feet or live on their knees." I have to disagree about your T/7 alternate storyline. Since "they" (the main characters) didn't really bond with "each other" as much as with the tribe, I fear B'Elanna's presence would have simply stirred up animosity over "why" she gets injured and Seven saves the day yet again. I do agree that Kes would have been "good" for Seven. Missed opportunities. D47 Re: Was it "fear"... or was it memorex? Actually, I never got the impression that Seven "was" afraid. I thought she was just "miserable". You know, the way you feel when EVERY freaking thing goes wrong. First, you are assigned to a shuttle mission with Chakotay... and as a Borgette You've DONE the math on THAT particular assignment. (One dead drone, coming up! And we aren't even talking about reactivating that emotional failsafe thingey in her cortical node! Then, he wants to "sightsee"... and you "remember" what happened the LAST time he wanted to take you sightseeing... "One Small (mis)Step" ring a bell, Commander? Then, you get involved with a primitive culture right after he tells you "not" to... and then you go off on a solitary away mission (ONE woman against the world). After you pass the point of no return, you trip up and fall on your face (how embarrassing! Did anyone see me do that?), Lose your tricorder (Dang it! Mama will skin me alive for doing that) Get LOST, by going in circles in the dark (Wouldn't B'Elanna Just HOWL over that one!), Realize your finely laid plans to get there and back by nightfall are NOT going to happen (anyone see an ATM where I can draw out the funds for food and a blanket?) When gosh darn it... It threatens to flipping RAIN! I can HEAR her thoughts... as she turns to Chakotay, she says... "This is ANOTHER fine mess, you've gotten me in, Commander!" Did someone say Melville? I'd say its Laurel and Hardy, back together again. That woman wasn't afraid in my eyes, she was MISERABLE! And we know what the old saying says...
Misery LOVES company.
D47 Re: "dont think McNeil was THAT good again " david, I thought he was awesome in "Course Oblivion". D47 Shadda, you are one sick woman!
Fortunately, I "like" sick! Propositioning his own GRANDMOTHER?! LOL! D47 Re: Maggie's final frontier... Nope, not even close. The final frontier is when Star Trek has Tom being adulterous with the Prehensile plant... "or" Neelix.
D47 And COURSE: OBLIVION is one of my five or six favorite VOY eps... Agreed, Deb...he's been very fine in other eps..Thirty Days, Gravity...this season's Lineage though was a real high..i liked him in F1, too. But S4 was a poor season for him, as was S6, alas. david g Slow and steady wins the race? Well, its not in my top ten for the season, and definately not for the series, but it was "good". Of course, when we're so close to the end, "good" is never "good" enough. What little things did I like? Tom, the hotshot pilot getting pulled over for speeding. (I always wondered how people could whip into/out of another planet's sphere of influence without breaking a "few" laws!) Neelix and Harry's (not to mention Janeway's) teasing. B'Elanna's head tilt. B'Elanna figuring out "what" was going on with the wreckage "and" paying homage to Seven's worth. (Recall, Seven paid homage in "Flesh and Blood" to B'Elanna's worth.) Glad to see Tuvok got to use some of his tactical know how to come up with the photon torpedo idea (sure, B'Elanna's the engineer, but Tuvok "is" the weapons guy.) Loved hearing everyone pull together to search and rescue their crewmates, and LOVED it when Kathryn raises her voice to exclaim ... "Give him (Tom) a Little HELP, Mr Tuvok!" (Don't mess with Mama, you danged Ledozi!) I Liked seeing "miserable" Seven. Man, could I "relate". Two Christmasses ago, I was being gladhanded at work by the Company CEO, and I (unfortunately) growled under my breath. He tried to "laugh it off" and I just gave him my best withering look, and said... "Kevin, you are looking at a woman who's had the same pair of socks on for the last 36 hours. I am NOT in a good mood!" He got the drift. It was a slow, and quiet ep, and if it were someplace else in the schedule, it may not have seemed so ... "unfullfilling"? Then again...
So much left to say, and so little time left to say it. Sigh D47 Re: You heard him wrong, Nina. He said "humanoid". As for why they didn't "speak", I'd offer to D because TPTB didn't want the Universal translator helping our intrepid crew. D47 Im generally with you on this one, Jason. NIM Though I would put it in the Pretty Good/Not Bad category. dg I forgot about Survival Instinct...NIM Re: Im generally with you on this one, Jason. NIM Here, here, Jason. It was a really good Trek episode. I did like it, a lot, but not nearly as much as I would have if it were any other episode than the third to last before the finale. I think many of us would have. But we were all looking for gripping emotional angst and comraderie. Not this week folks. But don't worry, next week's episode looks promising. What this episode comes down to is: Chakotay appreciates taking time to look around you and admits its not always a good idea; Seven wants to do things efficiently as possible but is reminded that its okay to sit and take a breather; Harry, Neelix and B'Elanna LOVE to give Tom a hard time (and B'Elanna gets off the ship AND is allowed to do her job - this is the groundbreaking part of the episode people, [end sarcasm]); Janeway is a good captain; Tom has to remember how to obey rules before he gets home but when it comes down to it following rules and regs don't make a good pilot - intuition does; and when the chips are down everybody lends a hand and gets things down. But I have to admit, the 30 second promo knocked me for a loop. I rewatched the episode today and liked it much better already. And I am still indenial about next week's episode. Trek Today posts the mixed reviews. All the usual suspects but Jim and Jammer are included--but still, there's a little something for everyone's opinion, which still seem to be many. Trek Today's Lineup of Reviews (snicker) I think you're both right - and wrong! Tricorder?
I think all of that depends on just how their advanced relatives treat them, and sadly I think this was not addressed. If they were shown to be sympathic to the Venku then I believe there would be more of an outcry against Janeway reestablishing the forcefield. It would have been nice to have heard some dialogue between Janeway and the Venku's advanced relatives as to what their intentions were regarding the land under the dome. Then we would all would have felt better about the ending. So you're both wrong, and both right. By the way, was that tricorder ever found (the one that Seven dropped)? I must have missed that because I thought for sure we would have an ending where we see a Venku pick up the tricorder and begin to play with it, supporting the notion that the natives would figure it out and evolve from its use. Mrs. Mac Well, I've hear Robbie quoted somewhere as saying that "I've had a baby with Janeway, I've had a baby with Kes, I've had a baby with Chakotay...what's next?" (The latter relates to an especially creative slash fanfic; I don't WANT to know how he became acquainted with its story line. I do know it kept me up until the wee smas, one Sunday night when my home internet connection was still a wondrous novelty.) LOL, and LOL again! But.. I didn't mean P/S was the final frontier, just perhaps the so-called unexpected romance. However, it's really P/pp. I meant the final frontier could be the difficult subject of adultery and its corrollary, monogamy. Trek has flirted with sexual preference, suggested the existence of polygamy (in aliens of course) and even had a whole episode about androgyny, sort of, in the Outcast. Trek has had its sexual rogue in the character of Ducat. But I cannot recall a single instance where a Trek character had to deal with adultery and its painful onssequences. ?? GOOD. That's the kind of nit I do NOT like to find in my "Voyager." Perhaps their vocal apparatus isn't like ours. That's another possibility. Re: Ready for the end of the series Yeah, you're right Mike. Sadly, I feel like I'm just hanging in there waiting for the show to be over and not really enjoying it anymore. I don't know if any of the Vulkonettes mentioned this or not, but at the Vulkon last month in Orlando we went to a discussion session on Voyager. I was a bit surprised to discover that many folks felt the same way I did. There was also a clear lack of enthusiasm for a Voyager-based movie. Vickie That's right -- "caves of steel" I love the depth and creativity of the early Foundation and Robot series. These books have as much to say about history and the human condition, not to mention the future, as many of the "greats." IMHO they should be on high school reading lists. I have no doubt either that Data comes from Daneel. They also ripped off many other things from Asimov. DS9's version of psychohistory is one example that immediately comes to mind. How about miserable and afraid. But misery is a pretty "strong emotion". That biotechthingybob should've kicked in Trek characters & adultery -- look at DS9 There was an episode where Kira "went back in time" or some such thing, and saw how her mother became a "comfort woman" for the Cardassians during the occupation, and ended up as Dukat's mistress. It included a VERY interesting scene where the woman spoke with her husband, and he basically said, "You're doing what you must to survive, and it's helping our children survive as well, so I'll never hold a grudge against you." Someone who's more of a DS9 junkie could remember more details, no doubt. AC Remember that one well because I really found it dumb. I don't think it counts since she was forced. Im really annoyed that Michelle Erica Greene gave away this finale SPOILER (which i quote) that C/7 are really getting together in the finale..Arrrrggghhhh, i didnt want to know this. I really am trying to stay spoiler free. david g Don't blame you, david g - but it's in the trailer for the finale, so I suspect you'd be seeing it soon anyway unless you turn off the TV before the closing credits of the next couple of episodes. Another time when TPTB chose their preview clips in ways that viewers who don't want spoilers will detest. Worse example ever, IMO? Icheb's father giving him that injection. Now, as for me - never met a spoiler I didn't like. Since I'm hot and not of much use to anybody (air conditioning is not working, and I'm in a windowless room two floors underground with a bunch of other bodies and heat-generating equipment), I'll ask you why you thought it was "dumb," maggie. I'm curious. "Waders of the Lost Archives," our t-shirt will proclaim when we order it...we've just found out that half of us MAY get back to our offices by mid-June. For the rest, it'll be July. Spoiler talk, re: C/7 Hearing that C and 7 get together in the finale is no surprise to me. That final scene in this week's episode was an obvious set up for some future interaction, as was Chakotay's near panic in the native village when he thought Seven was lost. Thank God I just. don't. care. anymore. Otherwise, I'd be having a little fit over this. Stupid PTB. Vickie How dare you disagree, Mac!... Mac said: "I believe it was the correct decision to redeploy the force field. There was nothing wrong with the way those native people lived and there was no reason to interrupt their way of life. They appeared to be resourceful and content. The force field is not a prison to a group of people who don't even know it exists." Actually, Mac, I can be swayed either way on this point. However, I'm not sure I agree that they are not prisoners just because they might not be aware of the forcefield yet. The force field evidently keeps them from evolving and exploring and keeps others from interacting with them...even interacting in a good way. And,BTW, how do we know they aren't aware of the forcefield? Maybe they have tried to go beyond it and been stopped. On the one hand I know what you are saying, but it seems to me these people can never evolve past a certain point even if they wanted to...never meet other peaceful cultures, exchange ideas, or explore beyond the force field. This seems a shame because they seemed like a very curious people who wanted to learn and share. What a waste if their ancestors never have a chance to reach the stars and explore what lies beyound. So I guess it's a trade off, either not develope and be ignorant to what lies beyound...but seemingly happy. Or, have the choice to expand your horizons and not be a protected prisoner, maybe find new forms of happiness. At least make the choice for yourself and not have others make it for you. To me the force field stunts their evolution now. On-the-other-hand you're right in thinking that other culture would exploit them. Even with the force field back up, it will probably be deactivated again anyway, as Seven pointed out at the episode end. I guess the apple has been bitten into and Eden may be lost ;^). Mike (sorry for a grammer mistakes I had to rush this out) Re: "Since I'm hot and .." Uh, Nina? Considering the content of the thread, is "that" a freudian slip?
D47 Well... Considering that I'm too hot to care about much of ANYTHING - I doubt it! But I can see why you might thing so. Good point. of the Delta Flyer when it came time for Tom to beam the disgruntled aliens onto their awaiting ship--with weapons charged no doubt. I imagine Voyager had to pull a stunt similar to their maneuver in the finale act of "Raven". ...sure you don't want to offend the old guy by saying out right you agree more with me, you have to live with him And about the missing tricorder, I believe it was mentioned at the end that they had recovered everything from the shuttle. Mike PS-I do see the old geezer's (Mac's) point. And I bet he still misses his boyhood in the good old days when he was chiseling in stone and writing on cave walls ...the one where those blonde half naked natives served that machine that looked like a stone dragon head. At the end they learned how to reproduce the good old fashion way [snicker]. And BTW I also loved 'Distant Origin' and concider it amoung the best. Mike Completely agreed on CHILD's PLAY; was hoping the offending clip was from RM, not Endgame. NIM Re: Since I'm hot and Freud Ah yes, Ducat and Kira's mother.... Why, did you like it? Ok, semi-seriously, you caught me at a good time so I can chatter a bit and give you some reaons why I said dumb: The retaliation for Nana Visitor's lobbying against an affair between Ducat and Kira that was even played out in the episode. It was quite obvious even apart from Visitor's own comments, which I gather were not in jest. The "ripped from today's headlines" feel. The episode aired around the same time as the Korean women were agitating for reparations from the Japanese. Call me irrational, I am indeed, because sometimes I just despise the obvious issue-of-the-week topical episodes and other times I think it's cute and "TOSy" The discrepancies in time and age among the main protags, among other discrepancies I can't really think of offhand. I dunno -- there were other things that bugged me about it but I can't think of them offhand. OTOH, there were some interesting aspects like her mom's Stockholm syndrome. But was it about adultery as AC suggested? I didn't think so. ?? So much for ... "unexpected" and Mulgrew's comment about fan intelligence. It seems TPTB think we have IG's of 50. Silly! And so much for being unspoiled! I read the same thing in Greene's review but never caught the promos so I thought she was just speculating. Of ocurse *I* couldn't resist reading this thread. Glad I caught you at a good time... because I really was curious. I agree that the serious subject matter deserved better treatment than it got - I couldn't make up my mind HOW to feel after viewing that one. Still can't. Yes, I remember its timing. Very well indeed. You're quite right, I think, that it doesn't count as an adultery tale because certainly the "affair" didn't deserve such a kind name. Coercion, pure and simple, eventually complicated by the infamous "Stockholm syndrome." Hmmm. Well, maybe (speculating on spoiler) she WAS just speculating. The promo shows (stop here if you don't wanna know) Chakotay and Seven embracing and kissing. Now, people HAVE done such things before and NOT wound up as a long-term couple...I think probably Green's right in her assumption, but for all we know they stood apart two seconds after that kiss and said, "UGH! Whatever made us do that??? We hate each other!" Not likely, I grant you. No wonder I don't mind spoilers. My imagination transcends them, every time Seven's definetly out of her element Someone mentioned that she's grown up on star ships and was just not comfortable planet side. But she's also less prepared than anyone else on the crew to cope with the situation. The rest of the crew have had survival training, at the Academy (officers), boot camp (enlisted) or Tuvok's ship board training, plus real life experiences on camping trips, in Maquis hideouts, etc. They would likely all be able to find their way back to the settlement, even Celes. Seven's never learned any of that; no wonder she's uncomfortable when she looses the tricorder. Re: Trek characters & adultery Dukat was definitely not monogamous; don't forget Zial. And there's always Picard's falling in love with his best friend's wife, feeling guilty and not acting on it even years after Jack is dead. Didn't he finally admit as much in the episode where he and Beverly are mind linked? Returning to what AC mentioned about Kira's father... his reaction to the situation was also interesting. I'm curious why the writers didn't write in the "family dishonor" or "you're damaged goods" reaction we hear about so often. Enjoy the heat!!We had it two days ago and now it's spring again. And for heavens sake don't work so hard I thought the writers were trying hard. I guess that's why I WANTED to like what resulted; precisely because we got neither the "damaged goods" reaction from the spouse, nor the "blame the woman for submitting - didn't she know a 'good' woman would prefer death?" cliches. Heat's going away after tonight. Thank goodness! Actually I solved something I've been trying to solve for the past year today. So I guess I earned my keep in spite of adversity. But Nina--maybe theyre from Renaissance Man? tha's my hope! NIM A moment that made me weep; another that made me laugh, and another! I love that scene where the Ventu girl gives Seven the blanket to take with her before she leaves the planet...A tear-jerker for me. Interestingly, Chak gets to redeliver that blanket...at the end. Also, i LOVE Harry's line, "Hey, Tom, are you joining us? Oh no, THAT's right, you have to get piloting lessons!" That little ensemble of B'Elanna, Harry, Neelix, and Tom is one of the high points of this season for me.. I also love the Ledozian driving instructor's line..."I take professional pride in my work. Are you familiar with that term, Mr Paris--professional pride?" LOL! david g I guess I need for you to tell me how that would make a difference. I won't be upset if you include any "Renaissance Man" spoilers, of course, being ME. I hope we can both wind up satisfied when all's said and done. My fantasy, Nina, is that... what we see in the promo-Chak clutching Seven--is the DOC impersonating Chak for some reason, in RM. PLEASE God...! david g I wouldn't say "ripped off," guys, as in one of the early episodes.... ...Data says that his "positronic" brain was first conceived by Asimov. Don't remember which episode, but I know it was very early...might have even been in the very first episode. And Roddenberry/Berman et.al. said that it was an homage to Asimov, so it was deliberate. Probably y favorite Asimov is NIGHTFALL...y'know, the one on the planet with the myriad suns....umm, that is the right title, isn't it? Mindy Ah! I see! Personally I prefer C/7 to D/7, but now I understand your hopes. Ahhhh... "Attached". Just bought that one last week, D. It was indeed that ep where he admitted his feelings... "after" she ferreted them out of his mind. Great ep, for those P/C among us. D47 "He said... She said... He said..." ?? This discussion makes me think of that great (IMO) movie... "The Gods Must Be Crazy"... when a primitive society must interact with the technologically advanced "20th" century. Besides hilarity ensuing, we learned that there isn't really a lot "we" can teach these people. Our societies are so disparate, our beliefs so "alien" that interaction leads only to confusion and pain. (The scene where "jealousy" occurs because only "one" coke bottle is available, is fairly condemning. A "prime directive" issus if there ever was one.) Once that barrier is dropped, the Venku/Ventu(?) have no protection from the noise/pollution/interference of the outside world. The tourists, the developers, the social workers who "just" want to make life easier by bringing "this" advancement or that to their world. Are they simply a race of people that need a little extra school work to catch up to the 24th century? Or are they the evolutionary link that spawned the Ledozi? The Gov't official seemed to suggest the latter answer was correct, and even Chakotay said these people "shared" genetic characteristics with the Ledozi... "not" that they "were" Ledozi. For whatever reason, it appears when the evolutionary tree branched these people were left behind. Taking a "backwoods" Homo sapien like Crocodile Dundee by the hand and plopping him into the middle of downtown N.Y. may be funny, but taking Homo erectus by the hand and doing the same would seem to be down right cruel. I think TPTB suggested these 24th cent Ledozi's intentions were not pure, given the speed and overt way they entered the settlement. At least in TNG's proto vulcan episode, the scientists "hid" to prevent from polluting the culture of the "primitives". D47 Really, Nina? Why? Is it because of the Doc's ...holographic issues? Im just too much of a J/Cer to want any other pairing. are you a J/Cer, Nina? STWOM made me a total D/7er. david g I guess in a nutshell, Deb47.... ...it should be up to them (the Ventu [sp?]) to decide for themselves if they want to be cutoff forever. Were they ever given the option? Or are we to say they are not capable of making their own choices because they're too innocent and/or primitive? And like Pat said, who is Janeway to make that decision for them. It's a complicated issue for sure. Mike J/C forever! It's partly the holographic issues, although at the time STWOM first aired I wouldn't have minded if the scene in which the Doctor gave Seven flowers and told her she was "his sunshine" had been real rather than his holo-fantasy. Trouble is, since then he's gotten (to my mind) more and more egotistical and annoying; and those holo-issues have become more and more troubling to me. As others have said better than I can, he just doesn't seem to be learning from his mistakes the way a truly sentient being should. That's why I can no longer see him as a suitable partner for Seven. She gets to me when she has too much screen time at the expense of other characters, but I like her very much just the same; and I don't like the Doctor anymore. Which is a shame, but that's how 'tis! As for J/C, I'll hold out hope until the final credits roll (maybe even until I real the novelization, since I understand it will have additional material to "relaunch" the Voyager novels post-series). But I want most of all for Chak to find someone, Kathryn to find someone, and be happy. Whether or not it's with each other. She, especially, has earned it! Im so depressed now. Nina, I just got it from very good authority (SPOILERS) that not only does C/7 happen, it happens at GREAT LENGTH in the Finale...OI. you know, it wouldnt bother me, C/7--since ive always liked their interactions--IF they had really resolved the whole J/C thing, and hadnt made Janeway dowdier in the process (much as it pains me to admit that). It began to bother me this season that Janeway hasnt been developed as a romantic/sexual being. But the major reason why it did NOT bother me before is that i believed that J/C was really there, simmering in the background. Now I am really depressed to think that they will pair off Chak and Seven. Seven and the Doc seem to me an infinitely preferable pairing (because for years other than Janeway he has seemed to love her the most--though i DO hear you on the Doc, completely, Nina). It's not that i think C/7 is a terrible idea. Ive thought theyve had interesting scenes since SCORPION II. i like their interaction. But for me, this is a wrongheaded, opportunistic idea, like Troi/Worf--sensationalistic last minute pairing. what the heck is the big ISSUE with having J/C fulfilled? i just dont get it. even though i admired how well-done WORKFORCE was, I didnt quite like it, in the end, on a personal level. it seemed to me a distraction, not a major development in any character's life. Then again (trying to rationalize it away) SHATTERED seemed like the J/C resolution--"there are some barriers we never cross"--so I guess I should just accept it all. in a way, it makes Janeway a more tragic figure, and there is some stature in that, i guess. david g I really do love the Ventu. They were interesting. The Ventu girl was my favorite. I think her rapport with Seven was a highlight. In a way, the natives seemed to respond to Seven more warmly than they did Chak...Trek is probably the only series that can get away with imagining natives interacting with "civilization" anymore. david g SHATTERED is the closest ep to ATTACHED we are going to get, alas. As far as resolutions to J/C, SHATTERED is what we're going to get it would appear. It could be worse... I do love that episode, it was a J/C valentine...actually, the only part that i dont like is the boring Captain proton bit. Surprised to find myself fwding through it. But everything else about the ep is sublime. still my personal favorite of the season. I weep every time Chak quotes Dante to Janeway. Is it yours, too, Deb? david g Re: I guess in a nutshell, Deb47.... This was Caretaker all over again. A culture sheltered from the outside world by a powerful race of aliens. A culture is circling outside eager to get at what the sheltered culture has. KJ is in the wrong place at the wrong. Kj and crew have to destroy the technology that can be used to harm the sheltered culture. The opportunity for the Ventu to choose was taken away when some other alien race stepped in not to protect them, but to shield them. Someone has to make the choice for them until they can make the choice for themselves. Just because the Lendozi were acting all nice with them does not mean they will stay nice. Isn't the path to hell paved with good intentions? Just look at American history to see that. This story kind of reminded me of Jean Auel's Earth Children series (Clan of the Cave Bear, Plains of Passage, etc). It is about the divergence of humans I suppose. There is clan, an evolutionary link and the others, us I guess. The Clan is dying off because the Others are better equipped to evolve. Its difficult to explain but there is a lot of dislike between the two (the story is about an other girl raised by clan). Some clans had been wiped out. I am wondering if this situation wasn't similar to the Lendozi/Ventu situation. But this is what I love about Star Trek. There are no straight answers. They present us with a scenario and we have to decide for ourselves. Poor Janeway. TPTB always put her in the wrong place at the wrong time. We have enough problems resolving postitions on episodes from years past. I wonder what the heck Starfleet (and how long) is going to do with all this? Re: SHATTERED is the closest ep to ATTACHED we are going to get, alas. That's definately on my A-list! I loved "Shattered." I remember telling my mom (my wonderful refuses to watch Trek but listens to me talk about it all the time saint of a mother) that I swear I felt a collective intake of breath by Trekkers all around when KJ asks, "...just how close do we get?" My heart beat so fast. Bt my absolute favorite scene is the "The delta Quadrant is a death trap" turbolift scene. It's everything he should have said in "Night" but couldn't. Actually, Janey... I think Janeway is nearly always in the right place at the right time, for the Ocampa, for the Ventu. But then again, I have alreaded 'fessed up about those nanoprobes that force me to interpret everything in a "positive" light for the Auburn one.
D47 david, did you notice "your" freudian slip? Mentioning "Resolutions" J/C and "Shattered" in the same sentence? Especially since we all agreed the "resolutions" were those made at the "end" of the stay on that planet... to "stay away" from each other. Sigh. I will not read spoilers. I WILL reread "Aftermath" many times as a wonderful defense mechanism! As for Fav of the season... Hmmm. Probably a tie between "Unimatrix Zero Part 2", "Shattered" and "Workforce". (You KNOW I can never pick "just" one!)
D47 Re: Nightfall... I liked that one too but a movie made of it was horrible. Now I vaguely remember Data's comment. It may have come up in Measure of a Man. I do hope it's not like (SPOILERS) Troi/Worf, which I hated. There was zero chemistry there. I'm not a big Riker fan, but there was ALWAYS chemistry in Troi/Riker. That's just how I took "Shattered," as the J/C resolution we fans had been demanding. Am I satisfied with it? Not particularly. But for some reason I just want Chakotay to wind up with a woman who isn't going to put him under mind control (Riley), make him look like an idiot (Kellin), or capture him for the enemy (Seska, "Valerie the 8472"). I've got a long-standing weakness for romances in which people who've been around each other platonically for a long time suddenly (or so it seems...) wake up to each other as potential lovers. I think I just explained to myself why I'm actually a bit excited about the idea of C/7 "at length" in the finale. Thanks for telling me that - and I'm truly sorry it depresses you! Less than three weeks to wait now. I need a "SIGH" icon. That's why I called him a sexual rogue. Zial may come the closest to an examination of adultery, but I recall that the Cardies' objection to Zial wasn't her extramarital birth but her genetic mixing. We never get anything from Ducat's marital family's point of view. Picard's merely "lusting in his heart" for Beverly is also typical of Trek's apparent traditionalism in shying away from topic of adultery. If all the stories about Gene R. and others are to be believed, this is an odd omission. There must an episode out there that actually tried to deal with the topic. ?? Something that bothered me about "Attached" since it's been mentioned here. That Picard would not want to interfere between his friends who are married to each other is admirable. That after Jack Crusher was dead, he still felt he couldn't approach Beverly romantically - did anyone else find it slightly offensive that he saw her as "Jack's widow," like someone else's possession/territory and therefore off limits? No, offensive is too strong a word. I wasn't offended, just - puzzled. As if the writers were struggling to justify Picard's years of NOT making a play for the woman after she was no longer bound by marriage vows to someone else - as if they tried to find a nice, traditional "male bonding loyalties" explanation - but, HUH? There's nothing unusual about marrying your best friend's widow. Or widower. Happens all the time. Tell me what I missed, please, that made that part of "Attached" make sense. A "bit excited" aaaagghhhh Anyway, shouldn't Seven die or be immobilized or something if she gets hot for Chak? OTOH, I liked your original idea -- that they would realize it's not such a hot idea. (All that hot talk from yesterday... I thought Troi/Worf was dumb for the same reasons, and Troi/Riker has chemistry despite my general dislike for Riker. Perhaps I also like T/R because, unlike most Trek pairings, Troi actually makes Riker a whole instead of a half and she brings out a mature, gentle and funny side of him that usually is submerged in his preening. Spoiler fun aside, Mulgrew's gushing over the finale keeps me optimistic. If she likes it so much, it should be good. I find that Mulgrew and I hate the same episodes I forgot "prefer death".. and here I was raised on "the lives of the saints." Must be a mental block on my part! Re: Something that bothered me about "Attached" I thought Picard's feelings for her had changed due to the passage of time, guilt etc. etc. And then they were also stuck with J/C syndrome What's "Aftermath," Deb? My Freudian slip was intentional, for once! NIM I can live with it (SPOILERS) But why C/7 has to take up huge chunks of time in the finale--if my source is correct--is beyond me...o well. There's some real missed opportunities there...I wonder if Beltran's pressure caused TPTB to give him the *girl*--the "hotter" "sexier" girl? How anyone (hetero) could resist Janeway is beyond me!!! david g But Tom *did* have a baby with Neelix. Okay, okay, so it was adopted, but they definitely had a bonding moment when they were cooing over the muppet in question in "Parturition".
(Sorry it's so dark. TPTB turned the lights out when filming yet again.) Jules I must admit to loving this episode, Jules Fell asleep 3 times! I generally love Voyager. I could not stay awake. I recorded the episode and fell asleep on the second watching. After trying to watch again (two days later), I fell asleep for a third time. I finally struggled through the ep and found only the "Tom takes charge" scene to be entertaining. The others were just...blah. Sue_B Me too. That one's beyond me, too, david g. Unless it's a question of "she's too powerful, she scares me" - and I don't believe it, since RB has played a number of scenes with KM that had the ole sparks a-flyin'. I think he just got disgusted with knowing TPTB would never let his character have her, and moved on. As Vickie has already said, stupid PTB. (Or was it stupid writers? Same difference, in this case.) Ditto! If Mulgrew had a grand old time playing it, I usually have a grand old time watching it. If she squirms when asked about it, and tries hard to find something nice (or at least neutral) to say - I'm not working for the Franchise, so I'm not thus encumbered. Well, at least you remembered to watch it, Sue! I meant to watch it tonight (really, I did!), but I got involved with something and by the time I remembered to turn on the TV, it was over. Ah, well. I gather from everyone's comments that I didn't miss anything. But I think this is a pretty good sign that I'm finally, officially so over this franchise! MEG Re: What's "Aftermath," ? david, recall the long fanfic Jules posted for me last summer? "Aftermath" was part 3 of 3. Like I said last year, if something's worth doing, its worth doing yourself.
J/C definately fall into that category!
D47 Re: "Something that bothered me" Nina, I think Picard was dealing with 2 things regarding Jack's death. One, was the fact that in some small way, he felt responsible for it. Second, was the fact that he always felt like he was betraying his friend by having "those feelings" for his wife. It would stand to reason, with those 2 things hanging over him, he might fear pursuing a relationship with Beverly would be "more" than just inoppertune. Maybe he worried that "subconsciously" he allowed Jack to die "so" he could "have" Bev. I know, I know... that's a "stretch", and yet isn't that why "we" are our "own" worse enemies? Because we see conspiracies and inadequacies where none really exist? (Well you did ask. D47 Re: Ditto! Here, here! Let em do all the C/7 they want. We get a double dose of Janeway. So there. And you KNOW she like this one. If you have seen the Fox and Friends interview her eyes roll back in utter delight when talking about working with Krige. If she's that pumped, you know it'll be good. That and the fact she's admitted she had a hard time doing it...that means she busted ever harder than usual. that's why SHE'S THE QUEEN! That makes sense as you explain it, Deb. And it fits well with how Picard's mind and emotions work, too. I make it habit not to ask if I don't want to know. Eric...? Is that really YOU...? You *hope* Neelix shows up in the flashbacks..??? I had to read that three times to make sure I read it correctly... Eric - what have they DONE to you??? What happened to our Neelix-hater? Flite You betch'a! I think it would be VERY scumy to kick him out before the finale! DS9 didn't have a choice with Terry Farrell since she did not want them to use her image. Jennifer Lien most likely doesn't want to return after her treatment in the Episode i Refuse to Name. But it would be horrible for Neelix to be cut because of a bad storyline. Eric Neelix IMHO is the only character who improved under Braga. Fittingly, for the very opposite reason that the Doc has gone from fan favorite to fan irritant. I remember an interview that Robert Picardo gave about three years ago. He compared his role as the Holodoc to a bottle of fine port stored away in a cupboard that is only taken down on special occasions. And is much enjoyed when it is. Recently, the writers have been pouring that port in their cereal and brushing their teeth with it. The decision a few years back to demote Neelix to strictly a supporting character was a very wise one. Nearly all of his scenes nowadays are short but tightly written and have a direct role in the telling of the main story. As recent examples, witness his brief but excellent talk with the Doc in Author, Author. Or his unsuccessful but heartfelt appeal to the terrorist leader in Friendship One. When he finally gets a chance to have a larger role, it is welcome. I expect this week's ep to be pretty good. Unfortunately, the decision to demote Tuvok didn't work as well. The writers never found many ways to involve an emotionless Vulcan in other people's stories. Tuvok is practically invisible these days. I think much of the problems with the other men in the cast is that their roles were never firmly established. IMHO, Kim should have been made strictly a supporting character. No bumbling Kim most of the time interrupted by the incongruous heroic young officer. I think I would have like his character better if he was less banal and stereotypical. Ditto Chakotay. Forget about Chakotay eps (which IMHO always suck.) Just make his everyday role as first officer more important. The more Braga made Janeway the alpha male (Who here said that? I love it!), the more untenable Chak's character became. If he asserts his authority as XO, Janeway overrides it. If he tries to offer advice, Janeway ignores him. Still worse is the numerous times when Chak served purely to advance the story by proposing the obviously "wrong" (foolish/immoral/cowardly) solution so that we could watch Janeway do the opposite (right) thing. One thing that I loved about Friendship One is that Tom and Neelix talked Janeway into helping the people on that planet. Usually, Janeway would be the only one to want to help them, Tom or Chak would argue against it because of Carey's murder, and Janeway would finally convince them to do the right thing. Agree with you completely, Terry, on Doc and Neelix I do think Braga had a hard time with the male characters save Doc and sometimes Tuvok (FLASHBACK, GRAVITY)... i do like Tom much better this season...i think Harry is a character no one has ever known what to do with, though i feel Garret Wang is appealing and has really grown as an actor. But I happen to love Brga's Janeway--i think Braga writes great dark stuff for Janeway, Seven, the Borg Queen....i know that doesnt thrill many but it does me, even though i also wish he'd written as compellingly for Torres. david g | ||
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(NIM)
("Before and After", admittedly in an alternate universe) and Janeway and Paris 
Sounds like you agree with me more than with Mac....