The Coffee Nebula Board is for the discussion of Star Trek: Voyager and other sci-fi/cult shows. This is its Archive of episode discussions, top ten lists, fan fiction, and other miscellaneous musings.
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"Who would have thought that this eclectic group of voyagers could actually become a family. Starfleet, Maquis, Klingon, Talaxian, hologram, Borg... even Mr Paris." |
Friendship OneFriendship One rollercoaster ride Wow, a Voyager episode that had me completely emotionally wiped out by the end. It's been a long time since I've seen one of those! It's also an episode that's managed to get me out of lurkdom, and that happens even more rarely. Since my local station that airs Voyager (Toronto's CityTV) has gone completely bonkers with its scheduling I got to see Friendship One tonight. I'm not going to divulge any spoilers for those who won't see it until Wednesday, as if you haven't heard any spoilers by now (as I hadn't) I think it's worth the surprise. And surprising it is. Shocking is a more apt description. It had me jumping off my couch, speechless and mouth agape. This was just halfway through the episode, too. Other parts of the episode had me verging on weepy (okay, so I am a sap; it's not *that* hard to get me weepy). I suspect some might dislike the episode for the reasons I liked it, finding it to melodramatic or cliched, but hey, it worked for me. It was also a very good Tom episode, which always works for me. Enjoy, Vicki Spoiler question... You are so lucky!!! Please tell me ONE thing, you can email me if you don't want to spoil everyone else's fun but please answer me this: Do they really kill Joe Carey? Where do you live? (My comments on the episode as well...) I saw FRIENSHIP ONE tonight, too. It was okay, but I have to watch it again before I make up my mind completely. I agree that it was a good episode for Tom. The special effects were just fantastic. As for the story itself, it had a lot of interesting spots, and the aliens on the planet were surprisingly interesting and expressed themselves without coming off too hokey. On the other hand, the hostage situation scenario has been done too many other times and there was not enough interaction between Janeway and the people on the planet to make it seem like there were any stakes or any real amount of tension. The hostage situation really overshadowed the core idea that humans had come to recover this damaging piece of technology. The aliens grumbled at the humans and were angry at them, but the whole relationship was never completely explored. The final scene mourning Carey was very nice, and a surprisingly contemplative way to end the episode... unfortunately the rest of it didn't quite rise to the level of contemplation, so it felt a little hollow, at least, after a first viewing. Jason SPOILER answer Yes, they do, although they never make the reason why he was killed clear. You sound like you're shocked that THEY WOULD DO THIS to Carey. Who cares! He's been seen two other times in the past six seasons and both times he appeared in the past time frame, anyway! There isn't much fall out from his death, although Janeway and Chakotay get a good scene mourning him at the end. Jason Re: SPOILER answer Because the poor guy was shunted to deck 13 supervising shuttle building (or at least that is what I tell myself). We saw more of Vorik than the second in charge of engineering. And I have a thing for red-headed guys. And the only time he has been on after what S2(?) was in flashback episodes. And I remember reading an interview with Josh Clark where he says how excited he was to be on Star Trek. It makes me a little sad that he reappears 5 years later to die. Especially so close to the end. Ah well. At least I'll get a Janeway mourning scene. Do we care? (Friendship One spoilers) In the overall scheme of things, I agree that Joe Carey's death is only a footnote. Lots of other people have died along the way, after all. But in his case it answers a question. He appeared prominently throughout much of season one, then disappeared from sight... even during plotlines where you'd have expected the second in command of Engineering to be at least mentioned, due to whatever was happening to B'Elanna at the time. But no, not a peep. Until he started showing up in all those flashback episodes. The temptation was to conclude that he'd died at some point along the way, during the earlier part of their journey, but we didn't really know before. For all we knew to the contrary, he could still be under the house arrest that was imposed upon him in "State Of Flux". It's kind of nice to know for certain. It's closure for at least one character, after all. (Incidentally, Jason: what's up with CityTV? Are they still going to be showing Voyager episodes on Mondays in four weeks time?) Jules I'm wondering too! "Natural Law" is scheduled to air next Tuesday. They've been pretty good about keeping the viewers aware of the shifting schedule, but for the purposes of the Neb Trip, it does pose some concern. I don't think that they would DELAY an episode, so the good thing is that it can be pre-taped if it is not going to air on the Wednesday of that week. I don't know if they would move the final episode from its normal perch though... but I'm not sure. The schedule has been weird lately. Jason Re: SPOILER answer Am I the only one who remembers him saying he had three sons and how much he wanted to see them again. Maybe I'm just a romantic-sap:rolleyes: But then again did anyone else think he was hitting on Seven in Relativity? SPOILER elaboration He and Paris have a heart to heart about pregnant wives in this episode, and while his children aren't mentioned specifically, he does talk about his family in FRIENDSHIP ONE. Jason Re: SPOILER answer I agree; I thought it was sad that Carey *finally* made a reappearance only to die. I had a vague memory of hearing he would be in an episode but didn't know Friendship One was to be the episode until I saw Josh Clark's name in the credits. I thought, "oh cool, Carey's back, how nice to see someone from Voyager's beginning in one of the last episodes". Then he gets killed. Ooops. Bye-bye Carey. I kept thinking the Doc was going to miraculously revive him, but no, he's dead dead. I was surprised that they'd kill off a recurring character (granted his recurring status was virtually nonexistent after season one) but I guess if I thought about it there would be many other instances in Trek in which this has occurred. It is disappointing he didn't get to see the end of the ride when he (presumably) came so close. Poor Carey, how little we knew ye. His nice little exchange with Tom about fatherhood upped the sorrow factor for me, too. Vicki Damn good episode! There's no much else I can say. This was not only one of the best this year but was in the best spirit of Star Trek. Not quite great because very solid. Only complaint: Why wasn't this excellent episode scheduled during the May sweeps period instead of next week's rather bland looking episode? Ya, if Seven wasn't the miracle worker Yet Again Seven's nano-probes save the day yet again! Oh, and Seven, you're not the only "unique" individual with nano-probes on board. what about ole Echip? Hmm, sound like the Doc isn't the only one whose ego has had too much stroking lately. Sheesh! Didn't care for this one.... Poor Lt. Carey....and he wasn't even wearing a red shirt [sniffle]. We knew he was a goner when he stepped on the Delta Flyer. Don't know exactly why, but I didn't care much for this one, probably because they killed off Carey and probably because the ending was just too miraculous a solution even for Trek. Oh sure in a matter of minutes the sun is shining and all is well...give me a break. But here is what bugs me. They said 'Friendship 1' was sent out 4 years (or something like that) after Zefrem Cochrane's warp drive test. And I thought they said it was meant to reach out to other species and pave the way... But didn't we see in 'First Contact' that the earth met the Vulcans and made first contact right after the first warp flight? So they knew there were other life forms out there before Friendship 1 was launched. Or did I misunderstand something? Perhaps it was not to see if there were other species besides earthbound, but other species besides those they had already met. Still they weren't very clear on that. Anyway, I didn't much care for this one. At least B'Elanna did the right thing, listened to Tom and didn't go on the mission. BTW-Seven said she was unique in the crew, but what about Icheb [sp?]. Mike Yeah, I said the same thing, Q... Seven wasn't unique in the crew, what about Icheb {sp?]. He must have nanoprobes too. And he is an ex-borg also. I suppose the excuse will be that Seven is the only one with implants....no not THOSE type of implants Mike Because they don't have any more sweeps periods to worry about... ...setting their ad price rate, after all... If you can't go for broke in the last few episodes, when can you? Jason Can you say, "Prepare... ...for Series V?" Suuuuuure, Baktag knew you could. Or at least that's what I thought when I heard all the date/year dropping in the briefing room. It smelled a lot like the hints dropped before Pathways came out in S4. As for the ep, I liked parts of it: B'Elanna and Tom's scene, of course I loved and felt for the mother, as I was supposed to feel for her--though her numbness in the beginning was really good. Janeway was great, and Chak and Harry had some good bits, too. Nice "outdoor" scenes and FX as well, even if the caves could have been a little more expansive. I disliked that cheesy "Everyone look!" Yeah, okay. I didn't like the non-tension way they redshirted Carey one bit. (And damn that my antenna decided to get hokey during his conversation with Tom about B'Elanna--I'll have to catch it Saturday.) Other things, like the pace and the choppiness in finally getting to the resolution, could have been better. I didn't mind the nanoprobes as much, for instance, as the way they were brought into the game, strolling in with a tube and moving right into the usual "explain what Seven is" thingy. For some reason, many of the ship scenes felt routine like that. Even many of the lines we're really fresh. Ah well. It was a good ep with at least a couple very nice performances. I liked the concept and some of how it played out, too. Just smoothing out the pace, stepping it up, might have helped. I'd have like a little more tension in the ship scenes, and in Carey's death--if I wanted the whole thing in the first place. Poor guy. I could have done with seeing him get back. Guess that was the point. Next week: I'm looking forward to laughing at this one, and not because of the oft-commented on so-called C/7 stuff. Not liking what I'm hearing at all.... Yes, I agree that pregnant should not expose themselves to radiation. HOWEVER, I still don't understand why they got B'Elanna pregnant. It's not giving her more storylines (in fact I would arrgue its limiting her screentime -- she doesn't get to fight for herself or go on away missions. Heck, she doesn't even get to discuss her impending motherhood with anyone; even though pregnancy affects women more). As far as I can see only Tom has gotten more screentime because of it. Prophesy was orginally written to have B'Elanna be the savior; the story was acquired in the first season. As for Lineage, the issues could lhave still been tackled without the pregnancy. Say it isn't so!!!! Not being around much, I've missed the discussions about Series V. Is everyone convinced the retro Trek approach is a definite? Ugh. Let's take a giant leap backward. And, while I like to have a show make me sit up and take notice, they didn't have to kill Joe Carey to do that. No, this was an adequate episode, but nothing really spectacular. And I don't like the message sent. Well, maybe it is a hidden commentary on our times. If I give a hammer to someone and he misuses it, am I at fault? So, is the tobacco corporation at fault for the cancer cases? Or Firestone at fault for the fatalities? Or is this a valid comparison? The tobacco corp. and Firestone made a faulty or harmful product. It wasn't misuse of that product, or negligence on the part of a third party that resulted in the accidents. Yet, that's what happened here. Misuse of anti-matter tech resulted in planetary devastation. Instead of picking themselves up, they blamed Earth. Did anyone notice the Starfleet delta shape on the Probe? A symbol that predates Starfleet. Sorry, the episode seemed just as derivitave as the rest lately. Maybe a little better, but definitely past the prime. Shawnster Repentance: Or, Carey On This is a perfectly respectable episode of rek generally, but DS9 or TNG cold just as easily have done it...there was nothing esp VOY about it. D'Alaire, i also loved Tom here... I also loved the continuity touches--Janeway's lovely conversation with the Prof at the begiining, the excitement about getting an assignment form Starfleet... I was moved by the very well acted mother role here (shades of Parturition) and found this ep genuinely...respectable. A fine ep. a good ep. Like Repentance...and like Repentance (which i liked a bit better) not an ep to turn to again and again, i suspect. Really liked the J/C scene at the end..and the handling of Torres NOT going on the mssion actually worked well enough for me. at least they addressed it. david g You know I was going to give this a in spite of my great disappointment in how B'Elanna's pregnancy is being used to sideline her instead if enhance her storyline. However, when her Royal Boreness marred my television with her presence and unsettled me with her less than pleasant nature. Basically, she gave the Borg rendition of B'Elanna's speech about engineers building societies. Seven didn't need to give the speech and there was no logic reason was Seven should give the speeach. I really disliked the "you're so special" scene. Not only should Icheb have nanoprobes, but the Doc and other third parties should be able to reproduce the nanoprobes as they did in Scorpion without having to extract them from Seven. I also didn't like that B'Elanna didn't get to do any work to retrieve the hostages or fix the atmosphere. Okay the things I liked: the pace of the episode was great, Tom (other than when he regressed a thosand years) was well characterized, loved that Neelix's backstory was well-utilized, I liked that Tuvok wasn't incompetent in getting caught. Other things I didn't like: I didn't like the lack of response by Tom and Neelix to Carrey's death. When B'Elanna gives birth she better be the focus of the birth. Tom has already been through two births. Re: FRIENDSHIP ONE Discussion Area (NIM) I went in not expecting a spectacular episode. And I didn't get one. But I loved it. But as I have said before, sometimes I think I am easy to please. Or maybe I'm sentimental because it is one of the last. I really did love this episode. First, because it was what TPTB finally figured out these what people do incredibly well... ensemble episodes. And they figured out how to write them better. It had a little bit of everything, a touch of home, a clump of sorrow, some desperation, hope, faith, opportunity, compassion...everything good Trek should have. My biggest, and I think only real, pet peeve in the episode? The scene in engineering when KJ finds out how the decontamination idea is coming along. What the **** is the CHIEF ENGINEER?! But there were so many good ones. I enjoyed KJ's chat w/the Admiral. It was cute. More species since Kirk? Now that scene was REAL character progression. Neither got overly angry, they listened carefully, and had a rational discussion. Much different than they used to be. It is good to see. And I got a kick out of "All right, you win. But if we have another baby, you carry it and I'll go on the away missions." A gimmie line, but cute. Yeah, it is annoying to have B'Elanna shunted to the side once more. It annoys the heck out of me, esp when engineering issues arise. But as for why she's pregnant? Who knows. But I am still glad to see it. Their relationship and starting a family within the series is ground breaking for the Trek world so for that alone I am glad for it. I had two favorite scens that are worth reviewing in their entirity, so if you want to skip the dialogue, feel free... Neelix: "Just between us, I understand why you don't trust humans." Varen: "Then why are you with them?" N: "They aren't so bad, once you get to know them. When I first met them I thought they were arrogant and self-righteous." V: "I suppose you're going to tell me you changed your mind." N: "Well, no, not completely. I still think they take themselves to seriously for my tastes. But on thing thye never do is harm people." V: "Are you blind?" N: "No. I see very clearly what's happend to you. And I'd like to help." V: "How?" N: "My captain listens to me. I can speak to her on you behalf, help her to understand you situation." V: "What do you know about our situation?" N: "I know what you've been through. My planet was destroyed b a weapon called the Metryon Cascade. Hundreds of thousands of people were killed, including my family." V: "How did you survive?" N: "I was on a neighboring planet when the weapons were detonated. I went back w/a rescue team but there was no one left." V: "I am sorry about your family but donm't compare your life to mine." I love Neelix! Even though he wasn't successful, this was a big scene. He's had so much trouble dealing with his past and has done most of it privately. Being there, seeing the devestation, naturally made him remember his home. I give him a lot of credit for trying to show he understood what these people were dealing with. Maybe he should have mentioned Polaxia. But this scene also showed how cold Valen had become. He has no consideration for anything but his own suffering, much as Neelix did in "Jetrel." But I love him for trying. TPTB are doing wonders with him before they get rid of him. My other favorite scene: KJ sitting at Carey's desk, with the voice over "But the success of our mission came at a very high price." We see a Voy model. Chakotay: Impressive isn't it?" KJ: "The detail's amazing." C: "Carey spent months working on it. He used to joke that he wouldn't be finsihed by the time we got back to Earth." KJ: "He only had one nacelle left." (KSHSHSH, that was the sound of my heart breaking...) C:"We were able to download the rpobe's memory core. We'll transport the telemetry in the next datastream." (She's not paying too much attention.) KJ: "I think about our ancestors. Thousands of years wondering if they were alone on the universe, finally discovering they weren't. Yoiu can't blame them for wanting to reach out, see how many other species were out there asking the same questions." C: "The urge to explore is pretty powerful." KJ: "But it can't justify the loss of lives, whether its millions...or just one." This was such a great scene for a few reasons. First because we learn a little about the guy we haven't seen in years. Second of course, is the grieving. This is the first I remember seeing such a scene and it was nice to see. It gave more closure than most episodes have ever done. How hard it must be to have to go through a crewman's belongings, and stumble upon this fantastic replica he made of your ship and see he had one nacelle to go. Third, she makes a great point. All the discoveries in the world (or universe) DON'T justify death, of anyone but it is easy to lose sight of that. After all we all know the infamous line, "the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one." But that doesn't make the loss any easier to deal with, especially when it seems so senseless. Was Carey's death senseless? It certainly seems that way. But Varen said from the beginning "I don't want to kill anyone but I will if you don't cooperate." To him, cooperation meant do exactly what I say. He was the one who was blind, so blind by his hatred and grief that he refused to see any other alternatives. And that is, perhaps, the saddest thing of all. Had he taken a moment to see things clearly, Carey wouldn't have died. Some final thoughts: Tom Paris. How much did I love him? Those paternal instincts (not to mention doctor) are kicking in quite nicely. I loved his compassion for the pregnant woman, before, during and after the birth. And hers for him. "Your baby is going to need a father, isn't she?" And I love her strength later, "Are you going to kill me?" (Varen) "To save my child, YES." Predictable? Yes. Unbelievable? No. She was grasping at straws hoping these "enemies" could help them from the beginning. And then they do. How could she settle for anything less than allowing them to continue. It is a law of nature: DO NOT MESS WITH A NESTING MOTHER. Neelix and Tom: I love when they confront her in the hallway. They argue passionately about helping despite Varen's protest. One man killed Carey, not all of them. Excellent counterpoint (Valen to Kathryn). The leader Valen blames all humans for actions from 300 years ago and refuses to listen to anyone even when Otron returns with the healthy baby, and near healthy himself. Kathryn, the leader, is angered over the blatant murder of her crewman but listens to TOm and Neelix's arguments and helps the aliens at risk to her crew. Which brings me to Seven's scene with Otron in sickbay: She tells him that perhaps they need a change in leadership, to someone who is open to more ideas. He questions her inference that is should be him. She tells him, "But you're a scientist. Someone who can see a problem and envision a solution. The same definition could apply to a leader." Sound like anyone we know? Yes! Captain Janeway. And what does Cap'n Kate do well? Envision solutions, with a little help of course. And it is interesting to note that four years ago Cap'n KJ envisioned a solution that saved Seven's life. A lesser person (or a certain first officer) would have blown her out an airlock. I did laugh once: "When you need to infiltrate a toxic environment it helps to be a hologram." then again, too bad they didn't think of that earlier. But then again they had no reason to expecta problem. I'll stop before I argue with myself. Sorry. I'm done....for now. Sorry... ...for the awful spelling mistakes! Do you want to hear sad part? I previewed the message. Ronit? Is my brain with you in the bushes? Janey, Pixie, you both remind me of how much i loved... the scene btwn Neelix and Valen, where neelix discusses the Metreon Cascade from JETREL, and his complex feelings towards humanity. there were indeed some really nice touches here, continuity wise...i love briefing scenes, i must say, cuz everyone's together. I really have to ask, What is the big deal about Seven's nanoprobes? Theyre just a plot contrivance, and a way in this case to get Seven to make an appearance. Pixie, my pal, when does Seven EVER make an appearance that doesnt irk you? Im really wondering because it seems you bristle at the mere sight of her. I thought Carey's death scene was well-handled, itself--but other than Janeway's poignant anger at the end, they didnt do much with it. Why have Carey there? I would have loved a Torres-Carey scene...to see how their relationship has evolved. david g Re: Janey, Pixie, you both remind me of how much i loved... If they had to stabilize the probe, they needed an engineer. Thank goodness B'Elanna didn't go. Yes, nanoprobes are what gets Seven into every episode. I almost put my fist through the TV screen when KJ said, "I need a word with you patient" TO SEVEN! But then I realzed I couldn't watch the rest of the show if I did so I restrained myself. I love Jeri Ryan. But I am really sick off the weekly dose of Seven's assimilation or reguritation of humanity. After four years I think we've noticed her getting it without TPTB shoving it down our throats while beating it into our heads. WE GOT IT ALREADY!!! They dang well better give credit where credit is due too. I want a scene crediting Kathryn with her successes before it ends. KJ deserves it. Golly, I'm a little testy today <eases rifle into its case>. Ahem. Anyway. I would like to reiterate that I enjoyed the line about the definition of a scientist also applying to that of a leader just because it is a subtle KJ rocks line. To me anyway. And you are absolutely right david g. I would have loved to see B'Elanna and Carey. Ever notice how she always disappears before the end of an episode? I would really to have seen one of two things happen at the end: Just as Kathryn is saying "whether its millions...or just one." cut to B'Elanna in Engineering, on the upper deck by herself. You can see she's been crying. She says nothing, but as the camera pulls back and you see her take a swing at the comsole in front of her. She opens her eyes in surprise, smiles a little, and goes back to work as tears start a fresh. OR HAVE THE LAST SCENE WITH B'ELANNA AND KATHRYN!!! Now that would have been something. (I know we would lose the J and C dynamic but we'd actually get a good scene b/t B'El and Kath for a change. That was another mistake... ...that I wanted to go into, but simply had to get to sleep, so I skipped the ire of thinking about it--B'Elanna's disappearance. I totally agree she should have at least been in engineering near the end, and that did make my eyes narrow when I realized it. I also missed a nice closure scene that could have been--and B'Elanna and Janeway would have been a good choice. I know she would have appreciated Carey's mock-up. Once again: Ah well. Not that they hadn't done much, much worse by B'Elanna in S5 & 6, when she'd disappear for several eps at a time--but we've heard enough of my b*tching about that. They haven't done that this season, so I'm not going to whine all that much. Still, her absence last night was indeed notable. Frankly, I wouldn't be surprised if there's a cut scene or two lying around somewhere. My VCR read 40 minutes, 38 seconds, at the end of this one, so they very likely did some serious chopping. It felt like it, the way the last half of the ep moved. Oh no! They've killed (spoilers)! JOE! Blasted TPTB! They had the opportunity to finally kill off a major character and they picked someone we liked! What we liked least about it is the lack of a decent burial at sea (so to speak). I would have liked to have seen B'Elanna, the Chief Engineer's reaction since she had begged to go on the mission in the first place. Then she loses her Engineering command backup. Nada. Nothing. It was probably on the cutting room floor because they had to cram another Intel Pentium 4 commerical down our throats. I bet the entire idea of that scene was to get a brief scene of grief from B'Elanna. They're so close to home that I hope they freeze dried Carey and then see his coffin come of Voyager when they get home. Okay, so what did these people live on all this time? Cave mushrooms? And why are they armed to the teeth? Who is going to WANT to even get close to that planet! I did like how they rescued the hostages. That doc does come in handy sometimes even though Carey was apparently deader than a doornail in the time it took him to transport to sickbay. Doc didn't even attempt to toss a nanoprobe into his body. In the old Star Trek wouldn't we have seen Bones laboring over the downed crewman until every last ounce of hope was gone? Our doc, with all of his miracle cures spent about 2 seconds on him and probably didn't even touch him. I hate TPTB. Shawnster, yes, the tobacco industry IS responsible for various forms of cancer by continually producing cigarettes for decades with addictive and deadly properties when alternatives can be made. It's an industry that the South depends on. Isn't it amazing that when a couple of hundred people die from bad tires that as soon as the responsible party for making the tires is identfied, corrections are made. And still, the company may go out of business. Yet millions die from cigarettes and nothing is done to protect smokers (and those of us who have to suffer from secondhand smoke occasionally) from the lethalness of the tobacco. And yet, those companies thrive. Don't get me on my soapbox. Mrs. Mac Oh, my God! They're killed Carey! Those bastards! I enjoyed it a lot but agree with .... the general criticisms: Seven being "unique" (huh?), the "disappearance" of B'Elanna, bringing back Carey just to kill him off, the magic technobabble "fix". There were also some really nice moments: Neelix with Veren, J/C talking about Carey's death, new mom taking control. What I liked best, though, was the pacing and the general theme that good but naive intentions can sometimes have unexpected consequences. Re: Can you say, "Prepare... This ep was totally predictable. I swear TPTB have an mean streak in them ! Why did they bring back Carey ,just to kill him off ! It wasn't fair at all. A whole lot of continuity with Neelix and his home planet in advance to *his* upcoming ep. And as far as P/T goes: My nit is that it's up to Chak as XO to decide who goes on missions, not any other crewmember ie: Paris. This is nothing nasty against Paris as B'Elanna's hubby , but it wasn't up to him at all ,it's called Chain of Command. I did like Torres' remark about 'not being an invalid' because she is pregnant, but *where* was she most of the ep ? Why was 7 ,IMHO , doing *again* duties that Torres should be doing even if she wasn't pregnant The most powerful Prime Directive episode ever, didn't use those words once. Our characters' ancestors shared their technology freely. They probably did it a number of times before they learned how unpredictable the results could be...and this world is probably one of the worst examples, although no one from Earth knew it until now. Nits: Why don't Icheb, Janeway, Tuvok, and Torres have nanoprobes? Why is Seven "unique" in this respect? Why would as intelligent a woman as Torres show up expecting to get an anti-radiation shot for an away mission to a toxic planet, when she's six months pregnant? I don't expect her to spend the whole pregnancy wrapped in cotton, but although the P/T scene was sweet - and Chakotay's observation before it good for a laugh - I just didn't believe B'Elanna would pull that stunt in the first place. Joe Carey - I won't go there. Except to say that I guess the writers were thinking, "We need to kill off a character we know has kids back home. For dramatic impact." Note to writers: WRONG. Is that all my nits? Except for WHERE WAS TORRES when the decontamination was being planned and tested, I think so. Now it's time to say: Good, solid, classic Trek episode. I loved Kathryn getting her first official mission in seven years, handed down by her former professor. The "more first contacts since James Kirk" bit was wonderful. I loved the way she took advice and changed her mind, but I also loved her fury over Carey's murder. THIS is Tom Paris as he was meant to be. Finally, the Frat Boy is gone!!! I didn't blame the alien leader for telling Neelix not to compare their lives. Such a common mistake, trying to reach a grieving person by saying "I've been where you are" - because you haven't. No one has. Ever. (They taught me that in "Pastor's Ministry to the Sick," and all these years later I keep seeing the truth of it in real life. Nice to see it in fiction, too, from time to time.) The alien mother holding her leader at bay for just long enough for the decontamination to be finished - and Janeway holding to the plan in spite of imminent attack - worked beautifully. Classic Trek, I repeat. AND build-up toward homecoming, even though the characters can't know yet how close it is. Re: Oh, my God! They're killed Carey! I guess that Vorik wasn't available . Shame on TPTB for this unspeakable act. Re: That was another mistake... I would have loved to have heard B'Elanna's eulogy to Carey referencing when she broke his nose at the beginning of the journey and how they worked together ,against the Captain's orders, to try to get the Sikarrian trajectory to work [Prime Factors ep I think]. Yes, I can see Torres taking her grief out on the consoles in Engineering. Sorry, but I must disagree, Janey Janey wrote: ...C: "The urge to explore is pretty powerful." KJ: "But it can't justify the loss of lives, whether its millions...or just one." and then said: ... she [Janeway] makes a great point. All the discoveries in the world (or universe) DON'T justify death, of anyone but it is easy to lose sight of that. I so strongly disagree that I count Janeway's comment as one of my two big nits with this episode. In fact, I find that sentiment patently absurd. Of course humans find the urge to explore justification for the potential loss of life such exploration entails. If that wasn't true, Columbus would never have set foot in the New World and Neil Armstrong would never have made his "small step" onto the surface of the moon. If NASA called me up tomorrow and offered me a seat on the next flight to Mars, I'd be standing outside the gates at KSC before the phone hit the floor...in spite of the fact that NASA'a most recent efforts to reach Mars suggest that they can't hit the broad side of a planet. No, I'd say that the urge to explore is so powerful that we're perfectly willing to risk death in order to satisfy it, and I'd also say that that is a good thing. Vickie Nina, though I tink you like the ep a bit more than I did, you really articulated everything I was trying to say--thanks! I remember training, rather exhaustively, when I did volunteer work at a helpline. The most surprising element to me was the section on responding to callers who claim they are about to attempt suicide. We were instructed not give sympathy nor to try to talk the person out of it, but to rationally, steadily get the person to discuss down to the smallest detail what they wanted to do and how they were planning to do this... sorry for the digression, but your post brought it to mind. i think this could have been a truly powerful episode if there had been more at stake in Carey's death. VOY sometimes flubs the most OBVIOUS stuff! but i agree that this was very Classic Trek in the social-allegorical mode...it reminded me of eps like The Cloudminders or Wink of an Eye. david g Re: Sorry, but I must disagree, Janey You are right. I misinterpreted what I thought was a good statement. Justify was the wrong word for them to use because I think what I said (about the loss not being any easier to accept) is what they intended. All the justifications in the world don't mean a thing when you are the one who loses someone. And it was a huge thing for her to say as a born and bred explorer. Janeway's line was a little out of character In the past, Janeway (who's been portrayed as the ultimate high stakes risk taker!) has seemed conscious of the fact that space travel is dangerous, but worth it. It seems that only with the presence of Ken Biller as executive producer has this retroactively been changed, with "Shattered" making it seem amazing that Janeway ever took Voyager out of Spacedock with all the second guessing she did in that episode. On the other hand, Janeway IS protective of her crew, and the final scene of "Friendship One" was a good one. If I had to make an excuse (and in this case I'm willing to), I'd say those words were said because of the loss of Carey "sobering" her up just as surprise losses and setbacks did in episodes like "Night". I really don't think that's something Janeway would normally feel, but as we know, she is prone to change her mind radically on these things whenever something bad like Carey's death happens. Jason Hang on--I only got to watch about 10 minutes... ...but I know that I heard Neelix ask something about Friendship 1 being sent out *before* the Prime Directive existed. I'll stand corrected, then, because I trust you to have caught it when I didn't, Ginny. What about THE OMEGA DIRECTIVE, Jason? Janeway says something along the lines of "Some things are not meant to be explored".. Her love for her charges, i mean her crew (! Has she taken risks when it didnt involve getting the crew home faster or saving the crew? I have been struck by Janeway's LACK of exploratory zeal; for her, getting home occupies her spirit, primarily. david g We haven't had a Magic Nanoprobe episode for some time! I've been missing those little buggers darn it, glad to see them back! Did anyone else get the feeling this was made for the sole purpose of launching Series V? If the rumors are right F1 was sent into space right around the rime the next show will take place. A nit i noticed : If this was before Starfleet why have the Delta painted on the hull, a symbol that was originaly a ENTERPRISE symbol? How can Jo Carey die anyway? I thought he was already dead which was why he was only seen in flashback episodes? Oh NO! It's those Zombie aliens again!!! Anyway, those nits aside i guess this was a pretty good episode. I'm not so sure i like the message that we were somehow responsible for the AOTW screw up but it was a nice PD scenario anyway. And the FX were just sweet this week. It was a fun little episode, not much more then that but....fun. Eric One comment, one question I thought the scene where Tom and Neelix confront Janeway in the hallway was very good. The show really was classic Trek. The final scene also was terrific, but where exactly were Katie and Chak sitting while looking at the model? Carey's quarters? Just curious. You guys are mean! I was missing Seven's magic implants! Those guys haven't had a good workout since they reformed that AOTW criminal and turned Neelix into an Undead Zombie! I'm glad Seven let them out to play again. Cute little buggers. Eric Yep, looks like everyone got the Series V feeling.... ...like i did. Very Prequely feeling! Eric Get your set of Nano-probes NOW! Operators are standing by! __Little __ implants ? Sorry - I couldn't resist. Ronit It's a question of who decides to risk who's neck. Sorry 'bout that -- must have been a Dr. Suess moment. Anyway, to use Vickie's example: it's one thing for her to sign up for a ride in the great beyond -- but another thing entirely if UnAdventurous Doe found themselves strapped in and ready for liftoff without ever being asked if they wanted to go. I assumed Janeway was talking about the latter scenario. Furthermore, I thought perhaps her reference to 'one life' reflected the intense feelings of 'life is precious' that accompany grief. Ronit I thought they said F1 was launched 4 yrs after the Phoenix's first flight? That would put the year at 2067, a hundred years before Series V is rumored to be set. But yes, it did have a Series V feel to, IF the rumors (which I seriously hope not) are true. As for poor Joe, His death would've had more passion had he been an actual recurring character all these years. Give the director a hand! This episode *moved*. Loved the FX of the snow scenes -- and the Neelix, Tom, Cap'n scene in the hallway was fabulous! Ronit The effects WERE great. When I saw this episode Monday, I thought of you, Eric! Remember our on-going debates over effects? Those were the days. I felt this episode was a little uneven but those shots of the Delta Flyer and the planet surface were some of the best effects to come from Voyager... probably this entire season. I noticed the arrowhead on the probe, too. I thought that was a little odd because in TOS that was the Enterprise insignia specifically, but I'm guessing that the effects guys didn't realize that there was differentiation between the insignias originally. Jason Omega meant the *end* of exploration. I guess there is always a fine line between the point when a risk becomes worthwhile or just foolhardy, but in the case of Omega, one little thing going wrong meant the destruction of vast chunks of subspace. That means the end of space travel as Trek knows it, not just for Janeway's crew but half the Delta Quadrant. This field of study could end exploration on a lot of other fronts-- it's a matter of prioritizing objectives and the realization that enormous power is useless if it entails the end of exploring the galaxy. Jason I'm not sure where they were. I think someone else said Carey's quarters, and that could be - is anyone sure? Much better than I'd expected from the promos Where did they get the business about Earth's Nuclear Weapons? Typical lousy, misleading UPN promo. This was one of those episodes where I looked at the clock during a commercial and wondered how they were going to be able to wrap this up in less than 10 minutes. Appropriate that the Admiral compared Janeway to Kirk at the beginning, since this was reminiscent of several TOS episodes. How many times did the TOS crew have to deal with the consequences of contacts with pre-warp civilizations before the Prime Directive was enacted? Ironic, that the first official mission they've had since they got stuck in the Delta Quadrant is the first one where someone gets killed in nearly two years (I don't think they've lost anyone in real time since "Equinox"). Guess its part of the pattern that at least some of the recurring characters have to be eliminated in the last season (TNG: Lore was deactivated, Ro deserted and Wesley "evolved"; DS9: Damar, Dukat and Winn were killed off). And since Voyager has so few recurring characters (Carey, the Wildmans, Voric and Icheb are the only ones aboard ship who are still alive who've been in more than 2 shows) they didn't have many to choose from. I hope Carey at least got to talk to his family. Did anyone else notice similarities to "Flesh & Blood" - obsessed leader who won't listen to anyone; scientist who eventually sees the bigger picture and does the right thing? Continuity: Carey. Janeway the scientist. Mention of Voth, Vadwar, etc. Nanoprobes as medical delivery system. (Yes they've been overdone, but at least Seven didn't go into any details about the Borg. And I took her comment about being unique to be that she's the only one who has active cybernetic systems and needs active nanoprobes to regulate these implants - the others probably do still have dormant nanoprobes in their systems). Neelix - Ambassador and his wartime experiences. Tom and Chakotay knowing about the early Earth space programs and B'Elanna researching the technical history. I think they improved because they have some real... ...competition these days! Foundation Imaging had better watch their back becuase Animal Logic is really closing ground FAST with their work on Farscape. Of course Animal Logic had a lot of practice with The Matrix! But i agree, they really reached a new level with this F1! Good stuff all around... Eric Yep, Carey's quarters (NIM) Even though the aftermath of... Carey's death wasnt esp well-handled... That actual murder-transport scene was extremely well done...The music was exquisite. The whole moment had a tragic feel. david g Re: Damn good episode! I was actually wondering at the end if Varan was going to launch the missiles and cause Voyager to fail in its attempt to cleanse the atmosphere. The more I thought of it, the better I liked my ending, because it really would have driven the point home about what centuries of hate and distrust can do...destoy any chance of rebuilding trust and all...plus it would have been even more thought-provoking than it was. But of course TPTB can never let their crew fail at a mission... But I must say that the coda, with Chakotay and Janeway in her ready room, was brilliantly written and done. I am in love with Mulgrew's abilitis as an actress. And Carey's death was done so well! MUCH BETTER than poor Tasha Yar's death. Also loved that Tom won the argument. Should have some surpised reaction from Neelix and Chakotay on this though, especially considering their comments: "Wanna bet who'll win this one?" Mindy But I think Icheb's nanoprobes are inactive now, Mike and Q... ...since he gave up his cortical node to save Seven...doesn't the cortical node act as sort of a mainframe for the nanoprobes? Without it, I think the nanoprobes are just floating around in his bloodstream/tissues. That was my impression, anyway. Can anyone else explain my thought more clearly or with more "technobabble?" Mindy Well Mindy, if Icheb's nanoprobes are inactive due to a missing cortical node... ...that still doesn't preclude Janeway, Tuvok, and Torres from being "unique" as Seven; "unique" in terms of possesing active nanoprobes. Seven was showing off plain and simple. FRIENDSHIP ONE -- some good, some bad The Good Well, I was sorry to see Carey go. Has there ever been a case of a mere walk-on with just a few lines getting such a following before? While I'm not pleased he didn't make it home, his death does have slightly more of an impact that "nameless redshirt #3." So at least that's an improvement. Once again, I adore Neelix. Harry doing his job, and doing it well, despite Tom's good-natured teasing. It's nice to see him being competent. Tom came off pretty well, too. I loved his concern for the people on the planet, and his & Neelix's argument with Janeway saying that they shouldn't punish all the people on the planet when it was just one over-the-edge leader who'd done the killing. The new mama, holding her leader hostage to allow the modified torpedos to work. Cool. You DON'T mess with mamas. Doc's impersonating one of the natives. I liked. He was also very good in sickbay with the native who'd invaded the flyer. "What will my treatment cost?" "Nothing." The Bad If B'Elanna was so desperate for something to do that she's try and get on an away mission, why the heck didn't we see her in engineering later, helping modify the torpedos? That's HER domain, and she should have been the one doing it, not Seven. (incidentally, while I am glad B'Elanna didn't go on the away mission, I've heard rumblings on the net that "she shouldn't have even been allowed to consider it, blah blah blah because she's pregnant." That doesn't sit well with me. She and Tom discussed it and they came to a mutually agreeable decision. I don't care for the idea of restricting a pregnant woman's activities "for her own good." She has the right to decide how to live her own life. I know that statement can lead to some abuses, but I also think that the opposite opinion of forcing her to do x, y, and z could lead to pregnant women being prisoners of their own bodies. Okay, rant off.) The leader being on the side of demented egomania was a bit overdone, I thought. And this is just me, but I thought Janeway came across as rather cold. Yes, Carey had been killed -- that had to have affected her. But given the conditions under which these people were living, I was astounded that she had to be CONVINCED by Tom & Neelix to do something. The Janeway I know would have retreated for a while, then thought of a solution, and come back and implemented it. And she wouldn't need guilt trips to see that it was the right thing to do. Okay, not good, not bad, just a thought. I've read some comments about the amazing Seven's Nanoprobes not being used to save Carey as they were when Neelix died a few years ago. Now, we haven't seen any more mentions for a while of Neelix needing injections, so it's possible he's weaned his way off them. But given his horror in "Mortal Coil" of what had happened to him, I've decided that most of the crew went to the doctor afterwards and put a "no nanoprobes" order in their medical files, kind of like a Do Not Resuscitate order. Because otherwise, Seven's nanoprobes not being called into more use would just be bad continuity. And we know TPTB would NEVER be guilty of that. AC On the heels of your comments re Janeway, AC, I was really surprised, really, really surprised, That Janeway actually lied to the planetpeople about evacuating them--agreeing to evacuate them--after Carey died. Janeway was uneven here--great with her old prof, in the briefing, as they were de-radiating the planet (not cold at all there), but then needing Tom and Neelix to shake her out of stubborn anger... still, i like that she LISTENED to them. david g Welcome to the club, Mindy! I think that Mulgrew earns that admiration. A lot of actors are content just to say the lines. Some go to the trouble of thinking about and throwing in some subtext. With Mulgrew, there's something new every time. What impressed me about her performance in that scene was not how she delivered her lines, but the emotive expressions on her face. You can tell that even in little scenes, Mulgrew thinks about ways to make them interesting, and not just a throwaway. It makes the performance so much more interesting when you can enjoy it not only by the way the lines are said, but the non-verbal aspects of it as well. Jason Mindy, Iwas thinking exactly the SAME for the ending! Loved your post! NIM Sing it Jason, Mindy How ANYone can fail to love Mulgrew as Janeway is farther beyond me than the DQ. She is ALWAYS and complexly superb! david g I'm late to the party yet again. I'll blame ill timed phone calls and just leave it at that. Since this thread is already longer than most Christmas form letters, I'm going to post first and read later... Forgive me if I repeat someone else's themes. First, I agree with all who think TPTB should have had B'Elanna in engineering at the end, listening to the scientist's suggestions. Other than that, I thought this was an excellent program. It had a great ensemble feel to it... whether it was Harry taking the lead in defining the search protocols, to the sickbay's away team "we're all in this together" moment as they got their vaccines, Chak leading the away team and escaping capture, Neelix playing ambassador, Tom playing medic, Seven dealing with nanoprobe medicine, Tuvok & the Doc infiltrating the camp, Captain Janeway working the prisoner and the tactical dilemma and the scientific conundrum (sp?). No, we didn't get as much B'Elanna as we or she deserved, but we did get a great scene which not only set up the "simple" moral dilemma that Tom keyed in on, it set up how this Voyager "family" related to each other. Chak and Harry laughing over "who" would win (surprise, they were WRONG! I've said it before, often its the "little" things that make me love this show. It was nice to see "why" the prime directive was established in the first place... to avoid scenarios like these. How many disasters like this occured before the Federation was formed with its "General order #1"? I enjoyed not only this nod to "Trek" continuity, but also the nods to "Voyager" continuity. First... there was Joe Carey. Say it isn't so, Joe! Back from the "missing in action" these last 6 years (Relativity and Repression being "flashbacks") only to fall in the final few chapters! Immediately my mind flew to his two boys... and I wondered if he'd had the opportunity to "use" his 3 minutes of comm time with home before he was sent on this illfated mission? Ack! It made me think of the first season, where the "nameless redshirts" who died often were not "so nameless" because they were introduced/allowed to speak in an ep or two before they croaked. (Durst in "Cathexis", Kaplan in "Future's end", Hogan in several eps.) Here we "really" lost one of our own, and maybe one even more "precious" because he was seen so long ago and we know he has a family. Sniff. So long old chum.
Second, there was the "ambassador", making himself known once again. (Gawd I love his humor... "Disulfides are also known for causing delusions!")
Third, there was his ability to recall the Metrion Cascade and its effects on himself/his family. I would have liked it even more if he drew on his hatred of Jetrel to try to make the alien leader believe he "understood" where his hatred of humans came from... but then again maybe the leader would have suspected such a "ploy". Paranoid people are like that.
Fourth, that Tom IS a medic. Man... he did his crew & Captain proud on that planet and back on the ship!
Fifth, was Janeway as Science Officer. The woman who could shout "warp particles" and get to the bottom of a quantum singularity 7 years ago, was busy absorbing the ideas of an alien scientist and turning them into a workable model for success. Which, I should point out, Seven couldn't do when presented with the same data.
Sixth, was when "I spied" the Doctor. The first time I saw a snippet of show last night, I wondered "where" the EMH was while Seven toiled alone in the Sickbay. Tonight, I was able to see that he was off playing the "command" officer, after being drafted to join Tuvok's tactical team.
Seventh, was Joe Carey. Yeah, I know, that's where I came into this argument... and I like that it was with Joe's memory they ended the show. Reminding us that whether it was Millions of deaths on that planet... or just One... it was too many. There, in his quarters, sat his two Commanders who couldn't leave his memory alone. They sat vigil together, over his model... their "world"... Voyager. I hope he got to talk to his boys at least once. D47 Was she showing off, or being honest? Personally, I think "I'M" unique too, don't you? My Auburn Goddess was truly showing off 30 years ago when she "honestly" said of herself... "Stone cold sober... I find myself absolutely FASCINATING!" D47 (Maybe I'm not "fascinating", but I can be pretty darn entertaining at times! Re: Janeway's line ... Although I agree with Vickie's comment that Janeway does view exploration "worth" the risk... Carey's death put a "face" on that risk. As the saying goes, when thinking abstractly about genocide... "million of deaths are just a statistic". while "one death is murder." D47 Re: Janeway "lieing"? I believe Spock would have said "she exagerated" to use a TWOK reference! My crewman has just been killed, and two others are at risk if I DON'T transport these people off the planet! What else am I going to say, other than "Yes I'll transport you off the planet" that won't result in my people getting killed? No one ever said Starfleet captains MUST always tell the "truth". D47 Late to the Party, but what an enxtrance Re: Well Mindy, if Icheb's nanoprobes are inactive due to a missing cortical node... Personally I thought she was amused by his curiosity. After all he hadn't heard of the Borg appearantly so this intrigued him. That had to be a different experince for her and I think she got a kick out of it. I don't know about SOLE purpose But I also got the impression that they were laying what could be the starwork (groundwork in space Re: Sing it Jason, Mindy She's even better on tape on that 3rd or 4th viewing. The ultimate test. Someone on the Trekbbs said Shatner was a better actor than Mulgrew. No doubt he or she was struck by lightening shortly after posting. I guess it's a form of payback. Both TNG and DS9 had storylines in their 7th/2nd seasons that set up background information for Voyager the season after. This is just Voyager paying back that debt by taking its own turn at passing the torch. Jules LOL, Malcom (NIM) So that's where Eric's been these past few weeks. Clearly his PC hasn't been in the shop for an upgrade, it's been in there for major repairs after that lightning strike. Although, no... it couldn't have been Eric. He'd have said Avery Brooks, not Shatner. Jules I agree with Deb... Janeway was bluffing. And anyway, I don't see anything morally indefensible about lying to an enemy or a deranged fellow who had just killed a hostage. I doubt any hostage negotiatiors would ever tell the truth. It's really a matter of self-defense. I am SO confused, though, about F1's presence in the DQ How was Earth able to send a manned probe into the DQ in pre-Starfleet days? did i not get something? david g Deb, it wasn't Janeway's lies to the leader that upset me. Of *course* she was going to say whatever was necessary in order to get Tom and Neelix back, especially after Carey was murdered. But then, if you'll recall, she was prepared to leave again as soon as the Doctor had healed the baby. Leave. As in not help. Evacuation was out of the question, but she'd been talking with the scientist and knew that other options might help, despite the rantings of the native leader. However inadvertantly, Earth had contributed to these people's suffering, and she was just going to take off until Tom and Neelix convinced her to try and do something to help the natives. The writer responsible for her taking that stance made a grave error, in my opinion, because the Janeway I admire wouldn't do that. AC The probe had been traveling for centuries! Even at it's low warp (it had a nacelle design like the Phoenix) say warrp 2 or 3?) it could easily have covered that distence in 300 years! Eric And what about Khan's ship? Granted, it didn't get as far... Kirk and co found it in the Alpha Quadrant. But it was sent out in the Trek Universe equivalent of the 1990's, and they already had the technology to keep a crew alive in suspended animation for 300 years. By the time Friendship One launched the technology for both propulsion and life support must have advanced considerably beyond that. Jules (speculating wildly on an episode I haven't seen, obviously Ahhh, but Khan was in Daedalus sleeper ship.... It was traveling at sublight! The F1 probe is clearly showin with the Phoenex's early warp nacelles. enTranced Sweetie, have you read any post of Eric's yet? He's revered around here for his spelling mistakes. I, on the other hand, am nearly always grammar-perfect. I have an image to set. Anyway, Jules was right, we've learned to read past the spelling and just see what you meant to say! 216 Re: It's a question of who decides to risk who's neck. "Furthermore, I thought perhaps her reference to 'one life' reflected the intense feelings of 'life is precious' that accompany grief." Very well said, Ronit! I got the same feeling--that she was speaking out of her grief for Carey more than a carefully thought-out statement on the value of life. Deb, you know the old saying, You're as "unique" as you feel. (nim) I don't even think she referred to herself as "Borg" I'll have to recheck on Sunday, but as I recall, she only told the scientist that she possed nanoprobes; and I'm sure there are a number of alien cultures out there that have developed nanoprobe technology. "Do Not Nanoprobe" Hmmm...I like that concept. Seems to me that Joe the engineer (however) might not be one to put that kind of order in place. He's more likely to be comfortable with technology than others. That said...I like the concept. Which brings me to a point that kept bothering me. How did the Doc know that the scientist wouldn't continue to need injections. Did they solve that little quirk in the "Fun with Nanoprobes" cookbook? I could see yet another episode on how they all started deteriorating because the nanoprobes went bad. They seem a little too high-risk technology to suddenly insert into an alien physiology. Ah well..details, details. I still love the episode for all the reasons everyone else has stated. Sue_B More likely struck by lightening shortly... BEFORE posting, Malcom!
D47 Friendship One? I loved this one, now this is worthy of the name Star Trek behind it. Quite a morality play if you ask me, and an excellant one at that. Should we pay for the actions of our ancestors? It is relavent to the events of the present. There is a lot of blame to go around, and just how would you repay. Janeway's solution was to fix the atmosphere, and go merrily on her way. What is to become of these people? Do they live happily ever after. Is it truely fixed. If there is a flaw to this episode, it is the fact that it ended so abuptly. TKS That makes much more sense, AC, sorry I misconstrued your post. I see your point. I think TPTB's rationale behind her initial stand was (and I could be wrong here... I think we've run that thread through the Coffee nebula's percolater quite a few times... "how dare she push/foist her beliefs, values, etc upon another people?" Do I not recall an epithet "Janeway or No-way" tossed about here some months ago? Neelix even previewed that argument for us, by admitting he thought his starfleeter friends were arrogant. Janeway was attacked, insulted, rebuffed and generally tossed aside by the alien PTB... and "for once" she was going to take a hint and beat the "he!!" out of Dodge. But as you point out, THAT isn't Janeway's way. She had to be reminded by Tom that... as a fellow poster said here a year ago... "some things are just wrong, no matter what culture it is." Allowing a megalomaniac to condemn his people to an agonizing death by radiation is (in my book) DEFINATELY one of those things. It was obviously something Janeway deep down agreed with, since it didn't take "all that much coaxing" by Tom and (a newly arrogant??? (Please realize, the nanoprobes in my body are designed to interpret ANY and ALL actions by Janeway in only the most POSITIVE light! D47 I Everything is fixed in an hour, but I suppose on the show it took at least a few days. I haven't seen that happen in anyone's life yet, well unless you count paper cuts. TKS Janeway or no way? Heck, that line was used. . . . . .in the very first print promo I ever saw for Voyager. It was the tag line to the ad that appeared in the Washington Post's weekly TV guide the week "Caretaker" aired. The text went something to the effect, "Abducted by an alien life form. Stranded on the other side of the galaxy. Now it's Captain Kathryn Janeway -- or No Way!" There was a photo of bun-of-steel Janeway, of course, and it seems to me of at least some of the rest of the cast as well. Too bad I didn't save that issue. MEG Slight correction. Khans ship Botany Bay was actually a type DY100 sleeper ship, but as Eric said it was definately sublight. The Daedalus class ships were among the first types of starships comissioned into Starfleet. These ships were warp powered. It is suggested in the Trek encyclopedia that the USS Essex, Horizon and Archon were Daedalus ships. A model of the Daedalus class ships was often used as a desktop model in DS9. Tim...anally retentive ship geek! I sometimes wonder about Voyager's writers. Well, actually I wonder about them most of the time, for one reason or another. The writers seem to have forgotten "One Small Step," which made exactly the opposite point and made it in a very moving way. Remember John Kelly, stranded with no hope of going home, knowing he was going to die, and still saying "We were right to come out here"? For that matter, what ever happened to exploring strange new worlds, seeking out the new, and boldly going where no one has gone before? Is the new Starfleet motto going to be, "Can't go there, can't do that, somebody might get killed?" Off hand and without having seen the episode, I can think of a couple of reasons to have Janeway make the statement. One is the immediacy of grief thing that others have mentioned. The other is that she's reached the point where she personally can no longer "pay the price" -- where she's seen too many die and now she's asking herself if it can be worth it. Michael Shaara has some wonderful lines in The Killer Angels about how the West Pointers were taught to be prepared for their own deaths and the deaths of comrades. They learned to expect victory celebrations for most and a hallowed death for a few, but never a price that went higher and higher as the war dragged on and the men died. I wonder if that isn't what could be happening with Janeway. Well, at least I would wonder if I generally gave TPTB credit for being able to think deeply and seriously about anything for five minutes. But I don't. One of the things that's been keeping me busy lately is prep work for an exhibit that we're going to be sending out on tour shortly. It's called "American Originals". One of the documents that will be included at some of the venues will be a speech that the White House writers drafted for President Nixon to give in the event that the Apollo 11 astronauts didn't make it off the lunar surface. It's an absolutely chilling thing to read, a reminder of just how much risk has always been involved in the exploration of space -- and how well the explorers have been aware of it. Thank goodness there are those for whom the urge to explore justifies the possibility of death. Otherwise, what would we dream of? MEG (long-winded and feeling philosophical after a day spent reading contracts. Sigh.) Actually, MEG, I thought that scene came off well. It was a moment when the immediate tragedy made her wonder if *anything* so abstract is worth a real person's life. But I don't think for a minute that she was saying that exploration should be stopped; just realizing the high cost to one individual of such a idealistic group goal. Even such a very worth goal. It was an emotional moment for her. She and Carey's friends will put his loss into perspective in time. Give the writers a break. They aren't complete schmucks *all* the time. Re: Janeway or no way? Heck, that line was used. . . But it had to be. She had to be the leader of the community. There had to be order, someone in charge, the leader of the community. It has to be her way. She became the embodiment of what Starfleet is, was, and /or should be. Does she make questionable decisions? Who doesn't? Does she listen to her 'advisors?' Most of the time. But no matter what there had to be someone to make the split second decisions, consider all the options, and be the judge, jury and executioner. She took on that role and has done it to the best of her ability. Had she been a lesser person, there would have been chaos. Many have complained throughout the years about Janeway's lack of a "social life," as it were, about her 24-7 commanding attitude, the lack of romance in her life and her "my way or no way" attitude. I, for one, appreciate the choices she has made to be the captain at all times. We saw what happend to Ransom and his crew once the lines of formality, protocol and chain of command disintigrated. The Equinox's experience is a shining example of what could have happend to Voyager had Kathryn Janeway been a lesser person. Formality, protocol and hierarchy were more important in the Delta Quadrant than they ever would have been in the Alpha Quadrant, especially when incorporating the Maquis into the crew. In choosing between Janeway or any other way give me Janeway, any day of the week. No reason why there couldn't have been intermediate propulsion technology Of course, we don't yet know what the revisionist tech level of that period was... and won't until this autumn/fall, actors and writers strikes permitting. But from what I gather about when Friendship One was launched, it must have been so close to that warp breakthrough that it's quite possible it used either a near-warp technology that got abandoned when Cochrane made his breakthrough, or a turbocharged, tuned-to-the-max version of sublight (granting that there's an absolute maximum you can do with sublight, and that any near-warp state would have to at the very least be dipping in and out of the warp field). Either way thoough, it's likely that the ship could have got further than the Botany Bay did. And that's even without taking into account wormholes, friendly Ocampans, transwarp conduits, and all the other sundry ways that you can cut 10,000 light years off your journey at a stroke. Voyager itself is probably only about 30,000 light years from home now, so it's not as impossible a find as if they'd stumbled across these people seven years ago. Except of course that space is big. Really big. And that there's no reason that just because Voyager is heading back towards where Friendship One started from their paths should cross at all. Jules MEG, at the risk of sounding like a patron is there somewhere I can read that speech which (thank God!) was never given? I still think of that night as one of my life's defining moments. I'm planning on having another one when we make it to Mars. What an era I got to grow up in! (I was 16 that summer....) On thinking too deeply/giving the writers too much credit for same, I have what might be a consoling thought. I'm always pleased when someone reads my work and finds something in it that I didn't realize I'd put there. To me that's what makes it worthwhile - when the work takes on a life and meaning of its own. Which Trek episodes certainly do, for better or for worse...! The moment I fell in love with this series. I knew I would LIKE it from the first frame of "Caretaker." I knew I would love it, though, much later in that episode. I knew it when B'Elanna protested Janeway's decision to destroy the array, demanding, "Who is she to decide that for all of us?" And Chakotay answered, "She's the captain." I think the series could have been a success by going in a completely different direction, in which Janeway would accept early on that "Voyager" must become a generational ship and conduct herself (personally and professionally both) accordingly. I'd have found that series at least as intriguing as the one we got - how would she retrofit her tactical/exploratory starship to meet the needs of families? How would she handle all the issues that we know would come up? BUT, that's not how the series got written...so... In the context we've been given, yes. Her choices make perfect sense. "She's the captain." 24/7, until they get home. Y'know, that's got a romance all its own. Where was my head? I stand corrected D47. (nim) Re: Actually, Terry, a question....I agree with you on: I thought that scene came off well. Agreed--Janeway loves her crew above all else. The loss of Carey, which shouldve been dealt with more broadly, was genuinely rendered in Janeway's grief at the end. As always, I am astonished by Mulgrew's power. Terry--are you a HOJ member? david g Wait! Im still thoroughly confused! The teaser shows the F1 crew in the probe going into the DQ planet atmosphere... How is that possible? Did they awaken just when they hit the planet? Am I missing something hugely obvious? david g Re: Near warp technology I think they were suggesting, by the design of the Friendship one probe, that they were using Cochrane's original warp tech. When I saw the "teaser" this week, I shouted "Hey, that's the Phoenix!" even before I found out it was launched 4 years after Cochrane's breakthrough. Of course, to me that begs the question "why did they waste all that time and those resources building such a complicated probe when their "fleet" was just getting off the ground. Ahhhh, that "exploration" bug bites again. D47 Here's a link, Nina. http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/apollo1.html Scroll down past that awful bright orange introduction for the original document. Thank God, indeed, that it wasn't necessary to deliver it. The NARA website has the original Apollo 11 flight plan up, plus a notation from President Nixon's daily diary (activities log) concerning his phone call to the astronauts. You can check those out in the Exhibit Hall at http://www.nara.gov I remember that summer well. Plus, during the 10th anniversary celebration at the National Air and Space Museum, I remember standing on the steps and looking at the astronauts (all three of them were in attendance) and thinking, "I watched these men go to the moon!" MEG the Apollo 11 geek Re: Wait! Im still thoroughly confused! david, I don't think the F1 probe "had" a crew. It was just a probe. Our guys tell us that it was launched 300 years ago, and that Starfleet was able to track it until 100+ years ago, then it lost contact. I suspect that the F1 probe didn't "impact" the surface until (oh, take a wild guess!) 10-30 years ago. The local inhabitants (those guys in the teaser) had time to go over the data in the probe, and to begin to use the information to build those anti-matter wonders that became their death traps. I don't think (correct me if I'm wrong here) that we actually "know" when the "accident" occurred that killed off most of the world's population, but I suspect that it was "within" the last generation, 10 years or so ago. Based on what evidence? Well, as has been pointed out... the inhabitants had to survive on "something", and I think its possible the 5500 or so people left could easily live for years off the canned stores that normally would have fed a larger population for months. Also, the existence of a child in their midst suggests that the radiation wasn't as bad or existant at the time of her birth. We know that the "mother" in the story has had 3 miscarriages already. One would assume, from the looks of them, that the radiation damage is not only limited to their skin. Their genome is probably pretty well shot, too. I suspect that by removing the toxic atmosphere, and by leaving the population with the means to treat their radiation sickness, Janeway has done as much as can be asked in this circumstance. Sure, she could have ferried a chosen few off the planet, but how many more will die in the interim? Like they already told us, it would take 3 years to do the job. The only way she could have realistically helped these people was by doing exactly what she did. Clean up their environ, and teach them to protect themselves from further damage. I do agree that it would be interesting to "come back here" and see how they are doing... and maybe starfleet can ask that deep space mission that was supposedly redirected to intersect with Voy (last year's show) can be sent onto this planet to render further assistance. D47 Re: Here's a link. Whoa, MEG. Thank god I never got to "hear" Nixon deliver THAT speach! Thanks for the link, just sent it flying off to my friends. When is the tour starting, and where's it going? D47 Ok, I must be really dumb, then---I thought those were people from EARTH in the teaser--about to enter the radiation planet's atmosphere--i am wrong, then? that would solve the problem for me. david g Re: The moment I fell in love with this series I think I fell in "love" during that first catastrophic scene after they were pulled into the delta quadrant. Janeway is a freaking mess! Hair undone, dirty, crawling under machinery to take the pulse of her 1st officer, all the while she's assessing the damage to her ship, the tactical problem at hand and getting her living crew to FOCUS on their jobs. "Captain, there's something out there...?" "I need a BETTER description that That, Mr Kim! A Captain that knew not just "how" to take charge, but one who knew how to keep the warp engines from breaching when her Chief engineer was dead and gone. Sigh. I love this show, this Captain. Still! D47 Sworn forever to the House of Janeway! (Oh, and david... remember... the HOJ is NOT a club. Its an ATTITUDE! Re: Not dumb, just mistaken No, david, the guys in the teaser were the aliens. Remember, they were listening to the F1 message of peace etc and the Vivaldi music and were freaking out because they could not understand what it meant. No universal translators yet. Plus, this wasn't a "sleeper" ship, so our guys wouldn't have lasted the 200 years minimum that they had to travel. Take a closer look at them in the teaser next time. They "look" (species -wise) like the scientist Seven treated with the nanoprobes, "after" the nanoprobes did their work. D47 It wasn't manned, david g. That's why it had the... ...recording. It probably had an early form of warp technology, or perhaps ion drive?...which, btw, an ion drive probe is being prepared to be sent out by NASA...and it was developed by one of us ST geeks!, i.e., a kid who watched TOS grew up and became a physicist and engineer, and he said that the idea of ion drive was conceived when he watched TOS! (There was an article in the NY TIMES about a year or so ago, and he was quoted.) Ion drive is slow at first, but as the ship gathers and converts the ion, it gets faster and faster, so it conceivably travel that far in 300+ years. Mindy Wow, MEG. Thanks!!! Deb, the tour will start. . . . . .in New York at the New York Public Library, where the exhibit will be open from Oct. 5 of this year until Jan. 5, 2002. You can find the full schedule at this link. Until July 4 of this year, many of the documents are also on exhibit at NARA's building on the Mall here in Washington. http://www.nara.gov/exhall/american_originals_iv/traveling_exhibit.html The Moon Disaster speech is scheduled to be exhibited in New York, San Antonio, Los Angeles, and Hartford, I believe. I'm not sure how graven in stone the exhibits are for each venue. I too am sincerely grateful -- and I would guess President Nixon was, too -- that he never had to deliver that speech. Imagine how hard it would have been for him to go on national television with that one, and how hard it would have been to listen to it! But it's a beautiful tribute to those who die in the cause of exploration, isn't it? MEG No. I used to like her without reservation before Scorpion. She's combined too many of the worst traits of both Picard and Sisko with fewer of their strengths since then. She's much better this year but the thrill is gone. OTOH, I also turned down Eric's offer to join HAG = House Against Ganeway. (Eric speeling). Sure enough, that final scene cheesed me off. "You can't blame our ancestors. . ." D@#* straight, you can't. These people -- who were who, by the way, did they or their planet have a name? -- did this to themselves. They were already venturing into space, building defense missiles, and had a scientific community before they ever came across Friendship One. They weren't exactly primitives or childlike when they adapted the antimatter technology for their power grid, and nobody forced them to use it. How exactly could it be anyone's fault except their own that something went wrong with their adaptation? I had serious problems, not only with the implication that exploration isn't worth the cost, but with the idea that somehow the universe, for good and for ill, revolves around the actions of humanity. Grrrrr!!!!! Let's get over ourselves, shall we? And speaking of the antimatter technology, what was with the "antimatter radiation?" Everything I know about antimatter I learned from Star Trek That said, I did like the general idea of this episode. It was an interesting spin on that old scifi stand-by, the advent of alien technology. Rather like a version of "The Day The Earth Stood Still," but with humanity as the aliens this time. There was a real possibility in there somewhere, struggling to get past the guilt trip and the angst. MEG I had to ignore the "antimatter radiation" technobabble. If I had let myself think about it, my "willing disbelief" would have flown out the nearest window. You're quite right. According to all we Trek viewers "know" about antimatter, you don't need to worry about it irradiating you because if it escapes containment your problems will be over very quickly indeed! I think the prob crashed when Earth lost contact, 100 or so years earlier. Harry figures out where it is by extrapolating from last known coordinates and HQ sends them after the thing in the first place because they're in the area where it was last heard from. However, the aliens probably spent decades building things based on the data in the probe, so I agree the accident was likely not long in the past. How murderously succin ct, Terry! What ep hooked you on VOY? MELD was the ep that made me fall in love...Or a club with attitude, Deb! For the first two years of VOY, i didnt have a TV, since I was living in the college dorms without cable, and, in NYC, w/out cable you get no reception. Luckily my friend Beth had tapes so I watched...i think i saw HEROES AND DEMONS, ELOGIUM, MELD, BASICS...maybe DEATH WISH. of all of those, MELD was the one that captivated me...of course, now that ive watched EACH ep innumerable times and have the show on tape in its entirety, i have MANY other favorites! But MELD was what initially seduced me...and you? david g Anti-matter radiation. Actually, positrons which are anti-matter electrons, are rather common. They are emitted when certain nuclear isotopes decay. Back in the old days when I was in nuclear spectroscopy we used to use the positron annihilation radiation as internal calibration for our instruments. But you are right, anti-matter is annihilated as soon as it contacts matter. There is a nice little poem about what happens when Dr. anti-Teller meets Dr. Teller. The HOJ is not for the half-hearted! Remember: the motto is JANEWAY OR NO WAY. No exceptions, no sub-clauses. HOJ is not desperate for membership! Until Terry comes completely to his senses, he can feel the icy chill of HOJ's cold shoulder. Then and only then will he be permitted to use the HOJ first season Janeway emoticon, which of course I am having trouble reproducing, shown below. .........//\\ Jason I didn't realize Janeway had a beard in season one. With Eric's new visual evidence, I may have to reconsider membership in H.A.G. By all means, join Eric! Misery loves company, after all! Jason Re: Anti-matter radiation. But I thought the radiation the Maalon produced was from antimatter? Wasn't that the whole reason B'Elanna did the song and dance to show them how to clean it up? She said something like "we use antimatter too..." If their containment field didn't hold couldn't the radiation have leaked to cause all the problems? I don't get it. Can anyone help? Re: The HOJ is not for the half-hearted! I'm not half-hearted, I promise! My devotion is absolute. I humbly ask for admitance to HOJ. May I enter? Thanks for the kind offer, Jason. But I'm already a charter member of the House of Torres. And B'Elanna is the jealous type. I thought that was the history, Mindy Thanks for confirming my impression! RE: I humbly ask for admitance to HOJ. May I enter? Geezzz, I feel like the Lady Abbess manning the door to Brede Abbey! With "Apologies" to david and Jason... I shall once again repeat myself. The House of Janeway ISN'T a club... It's an ATTITUDE. Sworn fealty to the Auburn one isn't a requirement, its simply one of many character traits. Like the ability to "Keep your head" while all about you are losing theirs! The ability to STICK to your priniciples, because in the end THOSE are the BEST allies one can ever hope to have. The ability to NEVER give up, even if some idiot "bit..ch slaps" you and strands you on a primitive planet with ZIP for supplies, or 15 freaking Borg cubes bear down upon you, or a telepathic hating fascist infiltrates your ship, or you get assimilated and become the personal plaything for the Borg Queen, or you get sucked into a void where the only law is killed or be killed. Never give up! NEVER Give Up! NEVER GIVE UP! D47 Kiddo... I lived on StarTrek Radio for 4 years! I've been attached to Voyager's hip ever since it first appeared, at 11:30 pm Sun night in whatever month (Jan 95?) it premiered. My reception was so bad, all I could do was "hear" it, and see ghost images flit across the screen... and yet I was hooked! My secretary taped it for me, and I ended up sharing my good fortune with many friends who could not get it those first few years. Luckily the stations changed over the years, and so did the transmission antenna, and now I (sometimes!) get better reception than my cabled friends. I love Voyager as much as Eric loves DS9, and count both of us luckier than most who've not found such fun in their Tv as we two. D47 Never surrender. Leave my Vorik alone!!! The crew must dread being asked to go on a day-trip aboard the Delta Flyer. Maybe they draw lots. They propbably have a pre-wake in the mess hall before take off (just in case) Feel I should sing the theme to Gillians Island. Sorry about Lt Carey but leave my long-eared friend intact. Seems odd that Seven was able to bring neelix back to life, who had been dead & moldy some time, & other times when the doctor does amasing things to save others pronounced dead. But if you not on the bridge crew, kiss your butt goodbye. I would want a full independant review done on the causalties and deaths that have occured on Voyager now they are in requalar contact with Starfleet. By letting the doctor evolve, he now has less time to concentrate on his medical duties (he has other outside interests). By adding more sub-routines has this been at the expense of other more important programs. Re: casualties and deaths . Ever since Dr Crusher brought Tasha Yar and the alien Queen back to life in that 1st season TNG show (name?), I have been more than a little skeptical about 24th cent medicine. Yet, despite that amazing feat, Beverly couldn't save Tasha from that last fatal encounter with the Tar Monster, she couldn't make Worf walk again without the questionable research from that other doctor, and she tells us (in a third ep) that she still can't solve all the infetile problems of the world. Why? Where's the drama if you turn everyone into "Q"? We know that the EMH is smart enough to reanimate Chakotay in Cathexis, but that he can't bring back a fully realized Vulcan in "Riddles" without help from the offending species. I suspect that given an extra 25 seconds, the EMH could have uttered a (gasp!) technobabble explanation why he couldn't save Carey. The radiation exposure seriously damaged his immune system and prevented him from being a condidate for artificial heart replacement... Or... the gun that shot Carey through the heart caused so much feedback damage to his nervous system that he could save the body but not the brain... Personally... I like the fact that even in the 24th cent... not everything can be fixed with a hypospray or a nanoprobe. "He's dead, Jim." Fini. D47 Fuller says (May Star Trek Magazine) that PTB decided to let the writers kill a recurring character. Choices were Carey, Vorik, Celes or Samantha. Seems Carey drew the short straw. Did he say why they wanted to? It just seemed so pointless. Since recurring seems to mean "several seasons ago" in TPTBspeak, the death had no emotional resonance for me. Although m wondering if Spoilers spoilt it for me? NIM No. Just "Ken said we could kill sombody in that episode!".(NIM) I remember rumors that Sam Wildman would be the one to die. That must have been last summer. Re: I remember rumors that Sam Wildman would be the one I rememeber that too, and I lot more recently than the summer. It was actually just a few months ago. It said something like Sam would die and Seven would comfort Naomi or something like that. I am glad they didn't kill Sam. That would have been so stupid. Trek is far too good at killing the momma or removing her from sight. Sam has been MIA for a long while now. If TPTB killed her off the castle probably would have been stormed in protest. Well I would have yelled loudly at the very least. So tkaing her off the options list we have Carey, Celes and Vorik. Celes wouldn't have been as much of kick you in the heart death, not to me anyway. I would have picked Vorik personally. Honestly? That would have hit a bit more for me. He's been on more, and more recently. And then we could have had a Tuvok scene. That danged Vulcan can make me cry more than most. He could have done the scene w/Cap'n KJ and when she says"...but it doesn't justify the deaths of millions...or just one." HE could have said, "With all due respect, Captain, that assessment lacks logic, as it was their efforts long ago that gave our two cultures the opportunity to know one another. However, given the recent events...I understand." And then you would hear sounds of me sobbing. Fuller said that the person who almost got killed was... ...Celes. Mike Taylor wanted to kill her off but Fuller liked her too much. Jason Liked her too much? What difference should that make? She's a fictional character. If Fuller was saving her for a later episode, I could see it. But we ain't gonna see her again and Fuller's written his last Trek episode. If he liked her, he should written her into F-1. Better a death scene than remaining invisible. I love Celes but her death MAY have had more resonance. NIM.. Question of the week... Based on the end of "Friendship One" (STOP READING IF YOU HAVEN"T SEEN IT!!!): Do you think: a. Kathryn will finish the model for Carey's boys b. she asks Tom to (he has built models before) c. She gives it to his family unfinished so his boys can finish it. d. someone else (B'Elanna, Chak) and why? I was going to add: e.they never mention it again, but that is pretty much a guarantee so I figure one of these will be done off screen and I want to know what you think. | ||
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Why is it she's always coming up with the saving grace ideals which make the others look incompetent?
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