The Coffee Nebula Board is for the discussion of Star Trek: Voyager and other sci-fi/cult shows. This is its Archive of episode discussions, top ten lists, fan fiction, and other miscellaneous musings.
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"Who would have thought that this eclectic group of voyagers could actually become a family. Starfleet, Maquis, Klingon, Talaxian, hologram, Borg... even Mr Paris." |
Author, AuthorThe powerpony tail is back! Unfortunately, Chakotay's wearing it. I loved the continuity in this episode! I just saw a rerun of TNG The Measure of A Man, and the similarities are unmistakable. Even though I loved the Voyager continuity and resolution (Annika's aunt, B'Elanna's father) I was surprised they didn't discuss Data's trial for recognition as a person in this episode. It would have been wonderful follow-up on the evolution of the Federation. ROTFLOL! NIM Too.. incoherent.. to type... more... now. Must breathe... Re: AUTHOR, AUTHOR--BRAVO! BRAVO! Superb! Brilliant! Wonderful! Excellent! Fantastic! Mindy Author, Author was pretty good. It wasn't the flat-out farce that I expected but instead a pretty good show which wrote many of the Voyager characters as well as they've been written in several years. I thought the Tom Paris was especially good here. Not just the same empathatic character he used to be but a more mature version. Although this story (Doc feels persecuted) has been done too many times, this one was the best of the lot. I only disliked the hokey trial with the Voyager crew testifying for the Doc. It was just too sappy for me. There were a lot of good elements here. And the Doctor didn't come off as being so out-of-line. He was writing fiction and intentionally exaggerating to make a point about holographic intelligence. (I don't want to argue about holo-sentience. That argument's been done to death. I just accept the idea as the one major suspension of belief element in this story.) This story was nothing spectacular but as usual, I like these low-key but well-written character stories. Leave the explosions and over(re)acting out of it. Sigh...a Halloween bag. Real treats and some rocks and pennies. I am really confused by this episode...it's certainly the best of the too-many "fluffy" episodes of this season. Boy am I torn about it. I will list the Dislikes first...and may return to them. Well, as someone who studies literature for a living, I must say that I am deeply troubled by any TREK ep that would have us believe that Art should be censored or reworked for any mature audience...then again, most have no idea of how much American movies are just that before we get them...it's disturbing that the progressive Trek would seem to give Censorship license this way. There is real darkness and cruelty in the Doc's holo-novel. It plays like LIVING WITNESS meets TTDS, only more of an emphasis on the former. Who directed this again? They certainly accented the darkness...if this was supposed to be a comedy, they sure didnt play it as one, for the most part (though there were definitely moments in which i laffed out loud). The scene btwn Kim and his family was flat...she seemd like a suburban shrew that it might be worth it to stick to the DQ to avoid...This is not the "delightful woman" whom Janeway spoke to in CARETAKER...given how much Kim longed for his family, i feel really disappointed that this moment played it all for...laffs, the dominant theme of this season, alas. Well, onto the likes... Paris's revenge was deliciously funny...I loved the trial at the end and the way the crew rallied to Doc's defense...the scenes btwn Seven and her aunt and B'Ellana, Tom the mensch by her side, and her dad were perfectly pitched btwn awkwardness and real emotion (though the actress playing Annika's aunt was poor, no shadings there)... I was glad that there was genuine emotion there...i was glad that Neelix supported the Doc...it was wonderful to see progress on Pathfinder..everyone got something to do...the coda was chilling. This was an ep like THRESHOLD--too many elements jammed into one. I wish it had either been all out farce a la WORST CASE SCENARIO or even the (overrated) TTDS...or a real investigation of the Fed's response to hologram rights. I much prefer this ep to the stooopid comedies we've gotten like INSIDE MAN and BODY AND SOUL...I think it's an often smart and worhthwhile ep...Im just uncomfortable about it, in the end. david g One thing's for certain... The crew talking to thier families could easily have been a separate episode. What we did see was great stuff, though. Harry and his parents--Bwahahahaaa! Poor Harry! (But everyone knows I love to see him in such duress. ) Now I know where he gets it. LOL!!!! B'Elanna and her father--sigh! Certainly not as much information as I'd have had, but when B'Elanna said, "I'll write you," I felt my heart pound for her. (Also the implication that her mother really is dead--already suggested by spoilers, but the expressions on both sides...gah.) Tom's support was perfect, too, silent and gentle. Lovely. I even liked Seven's conversation with her aunt. (Good call, Harry!) The strawberries and her aunt's mention of Seven's perfectionism was a great touch. But these seemed like add-ons to YAHP--Yet Another Hologram Plot. Maybe to explore it wasn't a waste of time (maybe), but jeez, they might have made that a main plot, and the crew getting in touch with their families saved for later and given much more treatment. I would have killed to see Tom with his Dad (obviously, they're saving that for the last), Tuvok with his family, Chakotay with this...sister (?--I knew he had a cousin, but we heard of this mysterious sister???), and of course, Janeway with her mother. It certainly could have taken a full ep, with a full plot, the works. But do love details. On the flip side of giving time where time should have been, I wouldn't have minded seeing more of the "bad crew," anyway (a comedic version of Living Witness, I'd thought at first). They were all hilarious. I would have liked to have seen more of the crew's reactions/interactions with them. On the Doc's side of things, and though the issue of an individual's rights are always a good thing to explore, certainly, I got that "shoved down my throat" feeling from the moment the Doctor began to explain his meaning and purpose--even though I agreed with his goal. I actually groaned without thinking when he started to explain it. Good as Tom's revenge was, meaningful as is "I'm surprised you noticed" line was (and dang, that was good, how he turned that conversation).... Well, frankly, I just couldn't make myself feel sorry for the Doc--again--and that's not like me. I guess I'm just as worn of holo-plots and Doc's amazing ego as I am of the Borg at this point. The issue stands and is always an important one, but I guess I just didn't need to be told to give and respect individual rights. Anyway, despite what I've said, I did enjoy the ep. I laughed several times. Torat and Marseilles, Jenkins--BWA! Then Harry and his parents. Paris taking over the role of the narrator was--just as Jason said--classic, utterly classic. Tom throughout this ep, actually, is excellent. Always nice to see him in his best lights. I can at least take those things away from this ep without reservation. Only the Doc annoying me yet again bothers me. Hopefully, I'll rewatch it and react differently. Resembles a collage of earlier Trek episodes Let's see here... we've got "Worst Case Scenario" BIGTIME with everyone engrossed in the newest holo-novels (fortunately no holodeck-gone-array gimmick); "Flesh & Blood" with Doc pressing for holo-graphic rights; "The Measure of a Man" with Doc having to prove himself a sentient being. You could even throw in "Living Witness" with the crew portrayed as cruel and ruthless. Still, I liked "AA" all around. But you'd think the whole hearing to recall the thousands of holo-novels in use would be futile. Are you telling me that they don't have burners in the 24th century? Also, I'd be pretty peeved about Seven ease-dropping on my "private" communications. Couldn't they have simply programmed the computer to terminate the call at the end of 3 minutes? Disagree about the censorship. The only censorship there was self-censorship. The crew just told the Doc how his book would embarass them and he finally agreed. I got the impression that the main thing he was changing was the physical appearances of the characters anyway. If we go by modern law, I don't believe that the crew complain about how characters were written based upon them. But they would probably have a case about the Doc using their images for commercial purposes without their consent. They're not public figures in any case. Author, Heal Thy Self. AUTHOR, AUTHOR has its moments but somehow, there is some kind of unshakable feeling that if produced any time other than this shaky seventh season, it would have been a classic. As it is, there seems to be a better, more tightly focused, show just trying to break out, but it's held back a little. The Doctor's holo-novel was flat. The glimpses of it were too fast and uninvolving to get either an idea of the strength of the message the Doctor was trying to convey or the Voyager crew's unwitting role in influencing the story. Paris' parody was clever and the Seven of Nine triplets idea was very funny. I felt the show tried to dip its hands into a few too many pots. I wasn't sure if they were going to have enough time to do the hearing justice. On the good side, it was nice to see the crew plot legal strategy. They exhibited a level of forethought rarely shown on Voyager. Janeway's closing argument on behalf of the Doctor illustrating the evolving definition of what constitutes a person was very moving. The testimony on the part of the rest of the crew was a bit much, but resting on Janeway's testimony brought that montage a satisfying conclusion. AUTHOR, AUTHOR wasn't bad and I wasn't as mad at the Doctor as I thought I would have been. I think it tried a bit too hard at being too many things, but it definitely has its share of appealing moments. Jason If so, I may stop watching tonight. I am so sick of the doctor and no one understands me. I am so sick of their exploration of his and Seven's humanity. I am so sick of listening to his whining of "I'm not appreciated as a person, and you don't treat me like a computer as I can multi task." I think over the years that the doctor has been shown many a time that he is valued. Anyway, if there aren't more shows than 7 and Doc shows in the next 5, I'll be even more upset. Roxanne Re: Of the five left, one (Renassaince Man) is slated to be a Doctor epiodes; another (Natural Law) is a Seven episode. Think of it this way -- When Voyager ends it will be a relief, rather than sorowful event. About Author,Author, I agree with this portion of Michelle Green's review; I think you'll appreciate it: "As always, the focus remains on the development of the Doctor and of Seven of Nine, who is inspired by watching others' reunions to contact her father's sister on Earth, discovering a connection with an aunt she never knew she had. By the time this series ends, Seven will have a family, a lover, and the grateful worship of everyone on the ship whose lives she saves every other week. The characters who have had emotions and been missing loved ones for the entire seven years of the journey get the short shrift in favor of the Borg and the hologram. It's laughable to watch Voyager fret about holographic rights when on this show, holograms get more opportunities for growth and development than human beings." This episode failed to resonate with me. What was the point of knocking up B'Elanna again? It certainly didn't comeup in her 10 second call with her father. I guess I shouldn't bitch too much after all Paris doesn't even talk to his father about anything let alone about his marriage or impending fatherhood. Nor did Tuvok, Chakotay or Janeway. Of course what do we care it's more important that we learn even more about Seven's childhood. Why the PH*@K does Seven get to eavesdrop on all conversations. The whole holographic rights was once again and predictably side stepped. I also found the definiton of being a person ridiculous, given that the Federation is collection of all types of species,cultures, sentient beings (including AIs from TNG) that wouldn't neatly fit into a homo sapeins only club. Anyway isn't an author a creator or maker of work, or also phrased as one who adds orginality. I don't think personhood has anything to do with it. Aren't there some paintings done by animals (primates and elephants)? I really wish VOY had ended earlier this season. I'm feeling a little catty, but wasit just me or does Ryan make one less than aethistically pleasing redhead. Re: One thing's for certain...
I want to start with the Doc because that is obviously the meat of the episode. I truly believe the Doctor didn't fully realize what he was doing. And he did write a compelling holo-novel, if you notice the various participants' reactions during the simulation, they all make arguments the Doc or Kes had to make early on in his existence. However, the crew couldn't see it clearly at first because the characters hit a little close to home. Which is exactly what the publisher saw as well (he was looking for a quick profit from the first novel about the Voyager crew whether it was said or not). The Doctor makes an excellent point when he said he merely wrote what he knew. Voyager is all he knew and while he does have his freedoms and distinct personality on the ship, he undoubtedly has a great fear of losing that when Voyager gets home. In the episode "Hunters" Seven makes the point of saying he could be decompiled when they get back. After all he's been through to gain acceptance on Voyager and after encountering other sentient photonic life, he undoubtedly has a great fear for his future. This holonovel is his way of making his struggle and successes known to those in the Alpha Quadrant before he gets there in order to prevent reactions like the hearing. He never intended to hurt his friends. I can't imagine having to live with some sort of aid to help me live. His mobile emitter is every bit a brace required for a person to walk nowadays. It is a weight, a burden, to carry and it most awful to know that if anything ever happened to it, your life would be dramatically different. It may be liberating in most respects but the knowledge of its limitations (and his fear of losing it) must be awful. The novel is about his fear. He knows how hard it was to gain acceptance on Voyager, remember the early days when people would talk to Kes and not him, when Kes talked to Janeway about the Doc's feelings, all of his experiments to expand his programming, and of course, "Latent Image?" I bet that replicator crack hit home with Captain KJ, she made the same comparison, remember. I also think this was a nice follow through to "Flesh and Blood" as well. Captain KJ never gave the rebel holograms any consideration as sentient beings in that incident. They were technology gone awry. It took the Doctor's ability to go beyond his programming and defy her (something she notes in this episode he shouldn't be able to do) to prove to her once and for all that he has indeed evolved beyond his programming. Now, based on all her experiences in this episode, there is no doubt in her mind that the Doc is a person. Any number of times they could have taken an easier and equally convincing argument to get the novel recalled but she doesn't let them. They may be easier to prove and succeed, but she knows what is at stake. HIS LIFE, more than their reputations. This episode addresses a few of the many loose ends that have to be tied up before series end. The Doctor's sentience is one of them and this was a great way to begin that. He is granted rights as an artist; a good first step and much needed one. I have no doubt that this issue will again come up, and I am sure Data's own trail will be a factor. But the method they chose, telling the true life story of the Doc is very poignant. We're getting close to the end. They're arcing us to a close. This was yet another "look how far we've come episode" following in the tradition of "Shattered" and others that show how different they ALL are since day one. I only wish they had B'Elanna and Tom make a similar defense for the Doc, after all he is the godfather of their child. Now the other stuff. From the beginning: you know you're far from home when cold and rainy "sounds delightful." I think that was the point of the ending, Q. Q: In the end we see all of the enslaved holo-docs (enslaved just as Doc said) and apparently one got a hold of the original version of the manuscript. So this manuscript will no doubt be spread throughout the enclave. What will be the result? Thanks to the Doc there will probably be either an uprising or some genuine discussion that will lead to the emancipation of the holo-doc slaves. If they know of a hologram with such freedoms, they too will want a taste of it. Mrs. Mac YAWDE! Yet Another Whiney Doc Epsiode. Sigh. I did like the episode, more than many this season but again I find myself saying that this Doctor has such an enormous ego on his shoulders that maybe his subroutines 'should' be tampered with. I wish he'd be more appreciative of the crew that gives him sentience, which was made more evident by his hallway conversation with Paris. I find it remarkable, with all of the species they have encountered over the years, that they give no "rights" to holograms. Surely if the robot in "Prototype" landed on earth and conversed with StarFleet, and if Data is an officer, both of whom are capable of making decisions, I don't see much difference. We even protect the rights on pets on this planet! Can anyone tell me if this is canon? Mac and I laughed most at Janeway seething and calling the doctor to her ready room. We started shouting at the TV, "You're in DEEP trouble now, doc!" The other scene that made us laugh was Seven's '2 of 3' comment. I have to agree with D'Alaire about the meetings with family members. We're not done with these. We still have several unresolved issues (D'Alaire, is B'Elanna's mother really dead?) with Janeway, Chakotay, Paris, and Tuvok. We still have Neelix to take care of too. He needs a home. I think they'll all be addressed before the end. Sorry, david, I disagree on nearly all of your accounts. I thought Kim's mother was so typical! Even my mother might have said those things when I was younger! I thought she was adorable, as was Seven's aunt. I also disagree on the censorship issue - more on that later if I get the time. Question for all: If the doctor is the only one with an emittor, where were all of those holo-docs working? Some big mine in a hologram? Did they make the entire environment holo-friendly? Mrs. Mac ROFL, Terry! NIM Interesting comments, Janey. I enjoyed reading them and agree with most of them. But I'd like to offer some (unsolicited, yes) posting advice. I'm not trying to be insulting but I find it difficult to read really, really, really huge paragraphs. You might find people (me, at least) will more willing to listen to what you say if you package in a form we've been conditioned most of our lives to absorb written material in. When I read a huge paragraph, I find myself reading very fast as if the author was talking without taking a breath. And I don't retain as much info. OTOH, please don't go to the other extreme of making each sentence its own paragraph. That can be almost as annoying. It reads like short staccato utterances without any coherence or structure. I hope you don't take offense. I wouldn't bother to offer any advice if I didn't think you had something worth reading. I love long-winded as long as it doesn't repeat the obvious. Thanks for reading this. But I wonder if these enslaved holograms... ...would have "free time" to watch a holo-novel in the first place. Since holograms have no rights under Federation law, you'd think the owners would deactivatie them while there not in use. Do we know the Mark I's were reading the original version? I would hope that the Doc still made the same points in his revised version. That he just disassociated the Voyager crew from the characters. Either version should make the same holo-rights point to the Mark I's. Re: But I wonder if these enslaved holograms... Well, we can assume that they do since it has already been read by at least one of them. So there clearly must be free-time of some sort, and it's read from a padd. Mrs. Mac I don't know.... ...if Miral is dead or not. But I'd heard there would be an implication that she was, and by the expressions on screen mixed with how John put it, I couldn't help but agree with that. Frankly, I hope she's not. That's another reunion I'd have loved to have seen, and after BOTD, I'd gotten the feeling they would see each other again when B'Elanna got home. In the same breath, I wouldn't be surprised after last night. Re: Do we know the Mark I's were reading the original version? Yes, I thought about that as well, Terry. I've no proof one way or another. I just got the impression they were reading the original version, and I'll tell you why, silly as it sounds. In Wagner's (yea, opera talk), Das Rheingold, the music shifts from a scene with the Gods nearby Valhalla to a scene deep within the earth where the gold is being mined and smelted. The Metropolitan shows that these two scenes are happening concurrently by raising the stage a couple of stories. The Gods are stage level, and then the stage is lifted 2 or 3 stories as the music darkens and the scene shifts more deeply into the earth. I got that exact same impression from the scene shifting from Voyager down into the bowels of the earth to show something happening at the same time. It was an ominous thing in Rheingold, and perhaps an ominous thing for the future of holo-beings. Also, so much was made of the first draft of the story being a dark version. The doctor's references to the 'burdens' of being a hologram. That's not saying he removed those allegories from his cleaned up version, only that I find more parallels with the original version and the darkness of the environment where the holo-docs work. Anyone else have any thoughts? Mrs. Mac I thought B'Ellana's... chat with her dad--with Tom silently but steadfastly by her side--was very moving. david g Im always quite happy to be disagreed with, Mrs Mac! About Mama Kim--and Censorship? Actually, i guess she isnt that different here from the querulous mom in FAVORITE SON... but i just wanted more of an emotional payoff...o well, since theyve been writing for months, i guess they had that earlier. i thought the Seven scene with her aunt was extremely believable, and the Torres-Tom-Torres's Dad scene was superb. awaiting your thoughts on censorship. david g Before I read others' thoughts... I would have enjoyed this much, much more if I were not SICK TO DEATH of the holographic (photonic?) "rights" storyline! However, with that said, I was actually impressed at the point the writers managed to make about how "rights" for a group of people (beings?) develop legally dependent upon how those already empowered view that group's "personhood." (I deliberately didn't say "minority," since women aren't a minority but in many societies still are not "people" in any meaningful sense.) I liked it that the arbitrator had to compromise, that he wasn't yet ready to go all the way with the Doctor's "personhood." It sounded so familiar!!! I screamed, I laughed so hard at both the Doctor's novel and then Tom's parody. I wondered where the blankety-blank Chakotay's sister came from...or did I hear wrong? I loved Harry's mother promptly wanting to write to the Captain (remember, she called Janeway about Harry's forgotten clarinet in "Caretaker"!), and Harry's horror. We do forget, in missing our loved ones, the ways in which they drive us nuts - don't we? I liked it that Seven's aunt remembered her as a child and was glad to see her. (I'm an auntie of grown kids. That hit my soft spot, I guess.) Fun. And even though the characters don't know they'll soon be home, it did have a "getting ready for the wrap-up" feel that I also liked. LOL, D'Alaire! WonderDoc and his Amazing Ego have replaced Season 4's WonderBorg and her Amazing Nanoprobes, I guess! I watched it, since I had ironing to do and there wasn't a TWW on at the same time last night. Mostly it just fell flat for me. I was bored except in some of the sequences involving the crew's contact with their families. Interesting to learn that Chakotay has a sister somewhere, and that B'Elanna's mother is apparently dead. I could have done with so many more scenes like that, and so much less of Doc. To think he was once one of my favorite characters! MEG Hair -- the good, the bad and the really ugly I bet few will disagree OTOH, what vanity -- giving himself plenty of hair!!. Paris as silent movie villain was funny, and then there was Chak's power pony tail nad Tuvok's "distinguished gray." Quite funny. Has that been mentioned before? About Seven's aunt? I thought it was interesting, too, that Janeway, so Dad-obsessed, was gonna call Mom...id like to hear that talk. david g What's chilling about AUTHOR, AUTHOR Does the Doc love anyone but Seven? Granted, Seven has been his most loyal champion since the lovely Kes... It's interesting the valences btwn this ep and PROJECTIONS...Think of the glee with which the Doc deletes characters in that ep once he realizes theyre holograms... The Doc can be supercompassionate in an ep like LINEAGE...but i truly suspect and fear he may be a true misanthrope. david g Totally agree re: Sigh...a Halloween bag. Real treats and some rocks and pennies. It was a mixed bag of hilarious moments, insight, cliche and illogic. I enjoyed it overall and I will watch it once more but it certainly won't rank as one I will keep on tape for posterity. I agree about the "dark" side of the doc. He claims these folks are his friends, yet he treats them maliciously. I guess it's making some point about slavery, but unfortunately the theme doesn't fit. Oh, there's that continuity and consistency bug-a-boo again While the end with the Mark I's was cute, it made no sense that your garden variety holograms would care or know about holoprograms. While a funny doc putdown, it makes no sense to me that anybody would bother to simply recycle the emh program to mining. Holograms, after all, seem to be rather commonplace in the Trek universe. As for censorship, I've won and lost my share of defamation cases, and my impression from the ep was that doc's first draft could have come pretty close to defamation. It was hard to tell, though, because we really saw so little of it and the point wasn't pursued. I was pleased the writers didn't make Janeway the "bad guy" for a change when it came to either censoring doc or dismissing him as she used to. Unfortunately, the same can't be said for Seven. Once again we have to watch Seven learn "lessons" about family while she eavesdrops on private conversations of the crew. The family members themselves were stereotypes (phew! Kim's mother was worse than Worf's, and the overly solicitous aunt -- I've been there I was relieved that the judge did not simply declare doc a "person". The issue should be much more complicated and merit considerably more than a one-person decision after a videotrial in 3-minute intervals. At least Data got a hearing in the "flesh" And here I didn't think I had much to say about this ep. Ah well, back to work...... Re: I agree with Pixie, TPTB have almost completely ignored the rest of the characters for the sake of Doc and 7. Re: Has that been mentioned before? Yes, but at the time I wasn't sure it was genuine. In "Bliss," Seven is told that she has a message from Irene Hansen, her father's sister (who turns out to be a real aunt, and not a fictitious one dreamed up by the famous Pitcher Plant in an effort to draw her into the same dream-state as everyone else). Janeway's father is dead, so I suppose she has to call either Mom or Sis. AUTHOR, AUTHOR was pretty good, good.... At first glance this episode *could* be accused of being a regurgitated "Measure of Man" which would be fair in most cases since Voyager has become a regurgitated TNG. But i think that would be unfair in this case since this is what Voyager for better or worse has been striving for from day one, the sentiant Hologram. This episode worked ofr me because of Robert Picardo, since Lien left he is the best they have. However while i liked the episode i wish they had split this one into two episodes, a Holodeck comedy and the later HoloDoc trial. Both came off a little rushed with missed opertuneties in both cases. Even so in this sad lackluster season this is a real standout. Nicely done. Next week looks like it could be pretty good also. Interesting how they ARE slowly working Earth into the story as we get closer to the end. Maybe....just maybe the ending won't be the disaster i've been expecting! Eric One thought not mentioned on B'Elanna. Of course we saw RD without her makeup on. One wonders why the doctor chose to portray Torres as totally human. Wouldn't Torres, who has struggled so hard to accept her Klingon side, be hurt that the doctor decided to portray her as wholely human, and a NASTY one at that? In other words, as if he doesn't accept her Klingon side? On another note, I would have expected more visual curiousity out of BT when she saw her wholely human counterpart. She only looked in the mirror briefly in "Faces" so I would think she would take a good, hard look at her human counterpart. It was the human BT's attitute that shocked the real BT, not what she looked like. Mrs. Mac You remind me of a nit, maggie. Why would the Federation be mining anything, anywhere, using a band of holograms wielding hand tools??? And why do the authorities hate poor Dr. Zimmerman so much that they won't change the Mark I's appearance (which we know isn't difficult)? I'd thought about that, too, Mrs. Mac. And the only thing I could guess at as the reason why we didn't get that was--again--time. If it'd been a tighter plot, it would have been far more possible. Yeah, I'd like to have seen more curiosity, wonder and even questioning the Doc's meaning on B'Elanna's part, and more on everyone else's too. We got a taste, but not as much as I'd have liked...of course. (grin) Again, I have to say it: Thank heavens for Fanfic. --And I can smell the gears a-warmin' up already. Or don't we use that term for generally disreputable people anymore Yes, the Zimmerman look-alikes, mining by hand.... Cute, but too implausible even for this easily-amused kitty. Further, if you take it strictly as a big joke on the doc, it detracts from the more serious point about his personhood. Guess that's my problem with the ep-- it didn't know if it was serious, fluff or satire. LOL! (Never. ) I don't think Doc had any ulterior motives ...in making Torres human in the holo-novel. After all, he made Tuvok human as well--with a slight southern accent to boot. Re: Mining holograms and holoprograms I agree with you on that. How would those Mark Ones know about the program? And if they got to know the program because of the trial.... who told them about the trial? I mean, the Doc in his early days always complains that "nobody tells him anything about what is going on on board the ship" (remember the eavesdropping thing? *g*). And the Doc is a fairly important person on Voyager, being the Chief Medical Officer. So if *he* isn't told anything, why would the Mark Ones be told anything? One wonders. Janey, maybe you should write a book on the episode...! I seriously considered copying your text to my harddrive and reading it chopped into smaller, more managable pieces... but I read it on the internet anyway and it was worth it! You really have some good observations to feed my hunger for spoilers (having not seen the ep). Keep up the good work! (maybe on a smaller scale That was the main problem. The doctor never thought through any motives except to portray the "slave-like" existence of holograms. He didn't think of what this would do to his friends. He didn't think of how it would make them feel, and he didn't realize that once something is released, it is impossible to pull it back. It just goes underground. Roxanne My indepth 'Author, Author'comments: Volume one; Book 1... I liked this one in a so-so kind of way, I especially enjoyed the interaction between the crew and their families. But did Seven have to be standing there listening in on every single personal conversation! You can't tell me there wasn't a way to give them privacy while she monitored their time and the transmission signal. She could have done it from another location, or if not that, she could have had them in another location with a com link of some kind. There must be a way. I know if I hadn't spoken to my wife in seven years I might like some fricken privacy to tell her how I felt! Oh, and I enjoyed Harry's parents and their comments, LOL. Who hasn't met parents similar to them, not that I didn't like them. It would be interesting to compare this idea of Holo doc being a sentient being to how Picard defended Data in a similar way. If I remember correctly Picard proved to some extent Data's case, seems something like that should apply to holodoc too. Mike (just kidding about the Vol 1 Re: Sigh...a Halloween bag. Real treats and some rocks and pennies. david g, I don't think the episode was intended to be pro-censorship. To be honest, I didn't think of it as censorship, just as the struggle for an artist for his voice to be heard. That's not exactly censorship, although sometimes it can be. It's more about the interference of "suits" and their ideas about MARKETING THE WORK IN ORDER TO GET THE MOST BUCK FOR THEIR BANG. (Yes, I know, I reversed the saying.) Remember SHAKESPEAERE IN LOVE? The theatre owner (can't remember his name, darn!) thought he was getting a comedy ("Romeo and Ethel the Pirate's Daughter") and Will had to keep pacifying him (along with some members of the cast) as the play turned into the tragedy we know. And as for films and the interference that goes on...read William Goldman's ADVENTURES IN THE SCREEN TRADE or the follow-up WHICH LIE DID I TELL to get a screenwriter's bird's-eye view of the process of translating a screenplay into a film...it's all about the GREEN, david g. And sh#t like this happens in the literary world, too. Personally, I wished that I had chosen a pen name when my CATWOMAN mini-series came out, because it was so warped by the editor's dictates that it bore little resemblance to the story I had in my head. It hurt me so much in fact, that even though I made a ton of money off of it and everyone kept asking me for a sequel, or at least another CATWOMAN story, I pulled back and refused; I was not going to put myself through that pain again. Robert Heinlen's STRANGER IN A STRANGE LAND was heavily edited at the time of its original publication, because the editor thought it was waaaaay too risque and "out there" for our consumption...of course, the publishing house was also worried about possible recriminations. (BTW, the original version was released a few years ago...what was all the screaming about?) It happens all the time. Of course, once you become a Stephen King or a Tom Wolfe or an Elmore Leonard, they let you do what you want, because, again, it's about the GREEN, man. (And King, especially, could use a good editor at times. And when I say good editor, I mean someone concerned with the story, not the GREEN.) As for the writer realizing that he might have hurt his friends, well, some writers pull back, and other writers refuse to...it's a personal decision, after all. Which, btw, I think has a lot to do with ego; writers can be notoriously egotistical (not you, Nina! Okay...Sylvia Plath's husband Tom Iforgethislastname relased a book a couple of years ago or so about life with Sylvia...and her friends and editors were up in arms about it, because it really bad-mouthed the woman. Salinger's son wrote a book recently about "life with father" that was pretty nasty (okay, Salinger is a bit weird), as did that chick who had the affair with him when she was a college student at Vassar. BLONDE, by Joyce Carol Oates, was a fictionalized version of Marilyn Monroe's life that many people felt did a disservice, if not to Marilyn herself, then to her family, DiMaggio, Arthur Miller, and others who were involved with the actress. Besides, frankly, the doctor's first version WAS libelous and slanderous, and, worse of all, pretty badly written and amatuerish. (Probably the worst sin of all! Mindy Is the Doc finally gonna get a place of his own now? What with this direct phone line to the Alpha Quadrant, he could buy a house on Maui with the royalties and commute to his day-job on Voyager. Outstanding review! Janey- I loved your review. It was very insightful. I really, really liked the coda. I envision a holographic underground forming based on Doc's manifesto. Yes. I think it's a manifesto (although a bit overdone). I can see his little holo-novel being evaluated seriously for it's social implications. Having said that...I think using the Voyager characters was a real slap in the face. Yes, he wrote what he knew but I would be offended. I think Tom hit it on the head...he suspects the Doc still believes Tom is capable of some of those actions. I would be hard-pressed to continue the friendship at the same warm level. Forget the potential for defamation of character. The Doc does not appear to hold his friends in high esteem. My thoughts, Sue_B I had a very lengthy and well thought out response, but There was a power surge and, of course, everything was wiped out. I shall paraphrase. First, welcome Janey, I don't beleive that I have said that yet. Now, I agree with a lot of what you said, but I do have a problem with the whole portable emitter as being an encumbrance. He is a hologram. No hologram can function without emitters. I am a human, I can walk but I cannot fly. In order to fly I must USE an airplane. Being a hologram is not being disabled. The disabled use wheelchairs, and I might add I truly hate the expression 'confined to a wheelchair', because the rest of their species walk. Wheelchairs are freeing, they are not the disability. His emitter is not something he has to use but the rest of his "species" does not. I truly resent the implication that he is disabled and constantly reminded of his disability by his mobile emitter. I should mention that I did like the show. It was very entertaining. I would have loved it if we hadn't had umpteen million episodes already featuring Dr. Whine and his unremitting carping about not being taken seriously. I loved Tom's revenge, but I do not believe that Dr. Whine truly understood. Tom should have named the backup file, WeinerWhiner Extrordinar. I also do not believe that the doc's holonovel was a great work of art. It had all the sublty of a sledghammer and the nuance of a gorilla. He honestly thought he was a better writer then Tom? I don't really see any difference. Actually Tom does recognize that his writing is for the masses and just pulp fiction, where the doc, once again has much higher opinions of himself. He does not recognize that he has compromized his "friends" with his writing. He hasn't really shown much imagination either. "Captain Proton" shows a lot more creativity then his novel did. Reputations, once ruined, are nearly impossible to fix. His novel ruined everyones reputation. I would have loved a scene with he and Janeway and Admiral Paris, where the Admiral questions whether his son was really like that. A real moment where the doc could have seen what his work had wrought. Having the Admiral not be completely convenced would have been a nice touch. That would have left Tom with some explaining to do and the doc with some more apologizing to do. I must stop now. I haven't written this much in so very long. Shadda Regarding Censorship, Mindy Mindy, i appreciate your perspective a great deal...I often think the process of art-making is usually left in the hands of people who are emotionally amoral or at best aloof, otherwise they would be unable to tell their stories (HUGE generalization, since, because i myself am at work on a novel, it must apply to me, too, then?) I cant go into specifics, but i have a filmmaker friend who depicted our relationship in a movie he made (quite a successful one, at that). i was touched but also devastated and betrayed. it really hurt to be exploited that way...but art often involves cruelty and indifference. anyway...about the Doc...it disturbed me that he depicted the crew so unflatteringly--does he really see them this way? does he care about them at all? it is chilling that the same Doc who campaigned so vehemently against the defamation of the crew presents as awful a view of them as that in LIVING WITNESS. but getting the Doc to change his holonovel because it might offend? this is such dangerous and tricky territory...i just dont know how to feel about it. david g No, Shadda! "I must stop now. I haven't written this much in so very long." Shadda, I love your posts! Dont stop on our account! david g AUTHOR, AUTHOR Since I'm late posting (got stuck at a meeting out of the office, followed by just over an hour at the DMV, then an eye doctor's appointment) I'll just add some quick comments. This must have been a complicated show to film, with everyone but Neelix playing 2 roles (Harry makes a weird looking Trill), plus all the guest cast. Nice to see Reg not being obsessive or a fumbler, and perfect that he's the one to bring the holonovel to the Admiral's attention. I thought they picked appropriate people to do the family conversations. Harry's always been the one who longed for home, and its his typical luck that his conversation got cut short. Torres needed to come to some resolution with her father. And Seven needed to finally contact someone back home, thought I have one nit - her aunt said Annaka stayed with her when she was 6, but she was 6 when she was assimilated and the Hansens left Earth a year or 2 earlier. Throughout the hearing and the discussions Janeway and Tuvok had during preparation I kept thinking "why aren't they using Data's case as precedent?". Another instance of TPTB wanting assuming the target audience wouldn't be know what they were talking about and ignoring the core Trek viewers who cringe at this sort of inconsistency? Ahhh, Shadda, once again... ...you nailed what I couldn't say, didn't have the time to say--or wouldn't say without at least a second watching. I watched it again tonight, and what you said about diabilities rang just right with how I felt about the Doc's "poor moi" trip. That's exactly what it felt like to me, and it annoyed me as much the second time around. You definitely nailed the why, Shadda. And I wouldn't have minded seeing the admiral taking the Doc to task, myself. That would have been almost as satisfying as watching Tom's "surprised you noticed" scene over and over. BTW, whoever made the distiction about the Doc looking at what Tom was instead of who was dead-on, too. Great analyses here! Survivor was a billion, no make that infinitely better...b The Survivor contestants got to send email to their families. They had less than a minute, but it was so moving and sad. Why can't VOY writers capture even a tenth of the emotion? Heck the contestants haven't seen their families in two months. I guess absence doesn't make the heart grow fonder. Somehow I doubt Doc's too remorseful over the whole situation Right on, D'Alaire -- Doc has received priveleges few on board have (i.e. constant forgiveness for bad behavior) and he still believes that he's constantly put-upon. As for emancipation for holograms in the Alpha Quadrant? Not a bad goal, but the way he went about it was appalling. Actually USING people's physical characteristics in his holonovel? *sigh* I enjoyed bits of this episode, such as Tom's turnabout, especially Doc's hair *snicker* but so much of it left me feeling outraged that after ALL the lessons, ALL the morality tales... the Doc really hasn't learned much. Whoever said he's quite the misanthrope is correct. I get the feeling he truly has a low opinion of just about everyone. Well, I liked the messages home, especially with Torres. I also liked that Harry wouldn't let Seven give him her communication time, but insisted that she use it herself. Although I didn't care for Seven monitoring the calls, I found her unusually unobtrusive in this episode. And was it Malqa who originally stated that Doc's "apology" to Tom really wasn't one? I couldn't agree more. Doc was being evasive and not really truthful. The "cheating husband" stereotype would have had me absolutely furious, and I think Tom let the Doc off way too easily. Tom may have a checkered past, but I've never seen any indication that he'd cheat on B'Elanna, and I'd like to have seen both of them confront him on how hurtful that was. And the final scene... Mark Ones using picks and shovels? That was just a bit too unbelievable. All in all, it had some amusing moments, but the underlying themes just left me angry. AC Re: Interesting comments, Janey. Thanks for the advice! It's funny that you say "as if the author was talking without taking a breath" because that is exactly what I was doing I think. I was in such a hurry to get it all down that I didn't pay attention to the format! Sorry abou the chaos! Re: AUTHOR, AUTHOR Discussion Area (NIM) I talk too much and I think too much. I apologize in advance. On the home chats: we've only just begun. Actually I don't think we'll be seeing much more, if any. You KNOW they are waiting for the last moment for the Paris family reunion. I hope they are saving Kathryn's reunion for that time too (but if they don't show it at all I will be one VERY angry little girl). All I need to see is, "Mom?" That's all they need, Mulgrew could do the rest. We all know she could have us in tears before she said "M." On censorship: I am not sure I understand how this issue fits this particular show. No one wanted to censor the Doc, they just wanted him to fix his characters. They got the message he wanted to get across but were hurt by the unintentional message he sent. Tom and Kathryn most of all I think. On the Doc: I think the biggest point of this episode is that just because the Doc has the ability to program additional subroutines to his program to emmulate humans doesn't make him a person. It is fallibility, just like Kathyrn says. She was referring to a specific instance but this entire episode is but another example of it. People have a habit of saying, doing or writing things without thinking and only when the consequences of those thoughts, actions, or words begin to arise does the person realize how painful they were without intending to be. It is a hard lesson to learn, Tom had to shove the point down his throat and Neelix drove it home. On the emitter: It is a huge advantage. But the knowledge that without it life as you know it is over is the burden. He NEEDS this for his life now. It is no longer a novelty or a priviledge. For him, losing that is no different and in fact could be worse than one of us losing our sight or hearing or a limb. Losing that means his existence is once again confined. He, like we, could adapt but we can still experience the real world, just in a different way. He would be confined once again to Sickbay and the holodecks. It is a constant reminder that he isn't like everyone else. On Kes: If she were here this episode never would have happened. She'd have known about the novel while he was writing it and pointed out his character-spoofs before they got out of control. Well that's my opinion anyway. On Miral: Unfortunately, that is one reunion I do not think we'll be seeing. On B'Elanna: I can't think of her feeling a lump in my throat. As far as her portrayal in the novel, I heard she was supposed to be half-Ktarian like Naomi but I guess that didn't pan out. Point of interest about that character though: the holo-B'El compares the Doc to a hyperspanner, exactly what she compared genetic retooling right before she reprogramed the Doc to do just that in Lineage. Not exactly continuity, but an interesting parallel to say the least. On Seven: Annoying as it was to have her around during the conversations, I bet more than a few were glad someone else was at the controls keeping the link so they could invest themselves in the conversation. Besides the look on her when Harry's parents asked about the promotion was priceless! And I have to admit, I was glad to see her FINALLY begin to get the crews "infatuation with this planet." Oh and here's a stretch: holo-Seven a red-head; real Captain known as "The Auburn One." Coincidence? Probably not, but funny to think about since the Captain is the only one who insists from the get go that they defend the Doc's reputation not their own. On Neelix: I love him. I don't care what anyone says. He knows his crew. He knew just how to handle the Doc. Stroke his ego ("I LOVED it"), insult the others ("who cares about a few disruntled ship mates," making the Doc say "they're my friends"), advising him to fix it ("Take the third path"), and giving him the means to do it (handing over his own comtime). I love Neelix. On the Admiral: The writers used this episode so well. In the beginning we have Doc and Tom talking holo-writing. Later we have Reg giving the Admiral the holo-novel to which the Admiral responds he doesn't share the Reg's enjoyment of holo activities. Great character insight to the Admiral and possibly another strain on their old relationship. On Tom: Can I tell you I love Robbie McNeil? I love Robbie McNeil. I loved Tom's holo-revenge, very appropriate, character-wise: something Tom would do and exactly what the Doc needed. I would like to reiterate something I said in an earlier post. Tom gives up his early comtime to Harry. Then he sees how the Doc portrays him in the holonovel. Then he tells B'Elanna to let her father do the talking. I think he is projecting (no I didn't intend that as a pun). Even though he heard his father say he was proud, we're still seeing his fear. On Harry: It must have taken a lot for him not to take Seven's time so he could sing to his mom. Big step for our homesick boy. On Chakotay and Tuvok: didn't see them too much. I am glad Chakotay has a sister to call. Loved the ponytail! And that tatoo! They could have used him a bit more. I would like to have seen him in the novel. I did love Tuvok's first defense speech: "did you ever see a replicator compose music, paint a landscape..." It took my breath away. That Vulvan can hit you right here *hits heart* you know? Watch the Doc's reaction in the back. Then as Tuvok heads up the dais watch Kathryn. From her reaction you can almost see her thinking "He's going in for the kill. Ha!" On Reg: Thank the heavens for him, eh? Without him who knows where the Pathfinder project would be? Not at this stage, that's for sure. And only he could come up with that perfect gift for Voyager. A live shot of Earth from McKinley station? Did you notice it in the right corner during the com links? If I had only seen that part (I think I watched that alone about 47 times so far) this episode would still rank high in my book. "Not much cloud cover over North America today." *oh, my* "Quite a view." *ya think?* On Kathryn: How cool is she? Okay, so I am a little biased, she is my favorite but golly! She is completely and totally in every moment (as Mulgrew always is). I could write a novel about just her character in this episode. But I won't. I am sure I have annoyed you all enough already. Let me just say this: She is the epitome of loyalty, one look from her could send you to the gates of heaven or the fires of hell, and I would probably believe her if she told me the moon was made of purple cheese. Welcome Janey of the good taste (go Janeway!) NIM Fabulous additions, Janey! NIM That would be Ted Hughes, Mindy Poet Laureate from 1984 until he died in 1998. Jules My dear, my dear, don't apologize! Thank you for the paragraphs, by the way. Your reasons for loving Janeway are mine, too. Keep posting! Wonderful mini dissertation Janey, though I still disagree regarding the emitter. On the emitter: It is a huge advantage. But the knowledge that without it life as you know it is over is the burden. He NEEDS this for his life now. It is no longer a novelty or a priviledge. For him, losing that is no different and in fact could be worse than one of us losing our sight or hearing or a limb. Losing that means his existence is once again confined. He, like we, could adapt but we can still experience the real world, just in a different way. He would be confined once again to Sickbay and the holodecks. It is a constant reminder that he isn't like everyone else. It is a huge advantage. He does not NEED it for his life to continue. It is a tool, as our cars and our airplanes are tools for we humans. The point I tried to make earlier was that he is a hologram. He cannot survive without holoemitters. We cannot survive without oxygen. There is no difference. Yes, he would be more limited to where he could go, but that is his nature. We cannot go underwater for any length of time without a Selfcontained Underwater Breathing Apparatis' to sustain our lives. We aren't like the fish. If the fish were sentient, as some think dolphins and whales may be, we would probably be more upset that we could not spend our days underwater conversing with them. None the less, we cannot. We, on the other hand, cannot download into our brains The Brandenberg Concerto and then play it without a single mistake. We cannot, without years and years of training, sing arias. His life is truly effortless if you think about it. He and Seven have the same problem in my estimation. Their abilities make them unreal and unsympathetic. They are supposed to be unreal, this is science fiction. They are not supposed to be unsympathetic. Other then that, I loved what you said. I love that you are giving Deb a run for her money. I lovingly refer to Deb as the Wordy One. She may have a contender for her throne. Where is Deb? Is she on vacation or something? I've been here only for short periods of time recently so I must have missed something. Shadda I didn't make the distiction, but I agree. You're absolutly right. I noticed that Dr. Whiner did talk about what Tom was instead of what Tom is. I really wish they had gone somewhere with that. I wasn't satisfied and I don't think Tom should have been. I think Tom's revenge was just the beginning of what should have been a much more meaningful expression of the betrayal the rest of the crew felt. Tom has treated Dr. I'm A. Whiner more like a sentient being then anyone else besides Kes and Seven. He of all people has been there for him and counciled him and helped him and this is his reward for taking him seriously. No, the doc still owes Tom some big apologies and mia culpas and some real "Tom you are an excellent medical assistant" compliments too. And, as someone mentioned, the novel was bad, really bad. Far worse then anything Tom has written. You mention the Admiral not taking doc to task, he sure did take Kathryn to task. Just a little, but I would imagine that would be his way. The one in charge is the one responsible. The doc didn't take into consideration how that would reflect on our intrepid Captain did he? Of course the doc didn't take anything but himself into consideration. Shadda Do we really want emancipation for all holograms? If you look at what the doc wants, it seems a bit over the top. Does he want all holograms to be emancipated or just the Mark I? Does that mean if you creat a holonovel all the caracters are automatically sentient beings? Or is the doc being selective about which holograms are to be given sentient standing, just the ones that look like him? Inquiring minds want to know I really do agree that Tom let the doc off waaaaay to easy. Unfortunately Voyager is notorous for no consiquences and having peoples feelings stomped all over and then everything is hunkydory and they are all off cavorting in Bride of Chaotica. I liked the messages home too. Seven being there was annoying in a way, I really don't know how I feel about it though. It was a set up for her to have her message home. As moving as her message was, I do believe that B'Elanna's moment with her father, though shorter, was the most poignant. Tom's silent support was perfect. Shadda Hmmmm... the emitter Think of it this way. Mankind can't fly. Not without using planes anyway. Now if you'd suddenly grow a pair of wings and get the ability to fly... wouldn't you be delighted? If you're not afraid of heights, you'd probably be. But then after a while you'd grow very afraid to lose your wings. They have become a part of your life, they "co-define" who you are. Could you live the old way again knowing you have once flown? I could say the same about the underwater thing. If you'd get the ability to stay underwater for very long periods of time, you'd, in the end, get used to it and miss it when you lose that ability. The Doc has the same problem. How could he live a "normal" hologram life again when he's experienced total freedom? He is - understandably - very afraid to lose that freedom, his mobile emitter. It has become a vital part of his life, of his existence. And having to miss that part of him would be like it is for us to miss a part of ourselves, like our hearing or a limb. Talk more! Janeway, Paris, Neelix, Barclay.... I think we share some likings... I know what you mean when you say you talk too much. I have the same problem. It's just that it's not noticeable here because English isn't my native language. If it were, I know who'd be the Queen of Long-windedness around here. But anyway, please, tell us more about your thoughts on Janeway (& co, but especially Janeway)... Ivy ...just about EVERYTHING I felt about that episode, and you put it perfectly! Mindy P.S.: I loved the way Seven attempted to connect with her aunt!!!!!! And succeeded, depite her doubts and fears! You make some good points. If I had wings, that I strapped on, after all the emitter is attached, I may miss them if they broke. Would it devistate me? Probably not. I am after all a lowly biped. There are millions of people who have lost the use of their legs and use wheelchairs to get around. Would they rather have their legs, you bet, have they given up on living, for most no. They have carried on and learned that mobility is not what makes them who they are. Is it been hard? You bet. His mobile emitter is a device that has made him more sentient then he probably would have been had he not had one. He saw it as a burden to have to wear it. That was my problem. The wings wouldn't be a burden. They would be a treat. Having to use a mobile emitter doesn't mean he has a handicap. It means he is a hologram and to get from place to place he needs to use a mobile emitter. I am a human, to get from place to place I use a car. That is a device I use and having to use it is not an indication that I have a handicap. Shadda Love is slowly turning to a strong dislike I don't know, I loved the messages home and I really enjoyed this episode and the crew with one exception....... the doctor although he's one of my favorite characters he has been so insufferable this season I just want to shake him he has always been pompous which I never really minded until this episode, I'm ALMOST happy that this is the last year any more episodes like this and I might become the founding member of the I can't stand the doc club. Other thoughts? Re: Talk more! Ivy, it is dangerous to ask me my thoughts on anything. It is near catastrophic to ask me my thoughts on Janeway or Mulgrew. I know what you mean about shaking Doc I don't entirely dislike him, but I do want to shake him at times, or slap him silly. I think his pompous streak is part of the character. It's believable considering his origin. He hasn't gone through the usual learning process, so he sees his knowledge as naturally (if that's the right word What can get really irritating is when other characters seem to accept this arrogance, instead of contradicting it as they would with most others. Like you, I'm getting tired of so much Doc. Sherry I don't know, Shadda... ... to get from place to place I usually walk.
But really, maybe the doc has come to see the thing as a blessing. I don't know what he says about it in the ep, because I (of course) haven't seen it. I mean, what if you were handicapped and lost your wheelchair? We Californian's are wedded to our cars LOL, Shadda Re: Love turning to dislike Monday said: ...the doctor although he's one of my favorite characters he has been so insufferable this season I just want to shake him... and then asked for other thoughts. The only other thought I have, sadly, is to agree with you. I've always liked the Doc but now find myself groaning "Oh no, not another Doc episode!" I think the writers are doing the Doc a disservice by having the other characters just accept his arrogance and self-absorption. He, just as much as, if not more than, Seven, needs to be socialized and taught how to be "human," yet we rarely see anyone taking on that task. Kes was the only one who really understood that need. Vickie Re: getting the Doc to change his holonovel because it might offend? I see your point, david, and yet I disagree. He wasn't asked to "change his point" as much as he was asked to "change the names to protect the innocent". After your friend's movie came out, perhaps you could see your relationship and therefore feel the betrayal, (that's food for another post!) but would the average "Joe" on the street realize it? All the crew were asking was that the Doc not use people that looked like them, or the circumstance that was their life. As soon as Admiral Paris played the holonovel, he knew who it was about... as did Reg, and as did anyone else who'd ever heard of Voyager. All the Doc need do, was change the physical parameters of the people, the quadrant the ship was in and maybe take it "out" of starfleet, and "voila" its about something he "knows" (the subservient life of a holoprogram), without necessarily being about the Voyager crew. As has been pointed out elsewhere... that's not censorship... its editing. Jules was kind enough to "edit" me last year when I was writing my "opus"... by pointing out I was using people's "real" names instead of their internet handles. I was flumoxed... I didn't realize it till she pointed it out, and then rewrote several character's names to either the "internet/play" version or asked people's preference for a "fake" version. The Doc, given his continued egotism and inexperience in "real" life... couldn't take a hint. Too bad. (I REALLY liked "Tom's version" better! D47 Re: One thing's for certain... Janey wrote..."She (Janeway) watched "herself" execute a crewmember (almost does this in Equinox) and then decompiles the Doctor (Latent Image). And then the Doc writes this character for publication? Ouch." Especially, "ouch" when you consider Janeway "has" executed a member of her crew. I nearly died last wednesday, when the syndicated show that night was a rerun of "Tuvix". "Ouch" indeed! (Howdy Janey... welcome to the neb!) D47 "Where is Deb? Is she on vacation or something?"
Fear NOT, fair matron, for I have come to the neb to slake my "trek" thirst... and found yon post questioning my absence. "No"... I have not returned to the nebula, reincarnated as "Janey"... (I offer her my "wordy" crown... until late May when I suspect I'll need it back again!) I have been a "good girl" in Washington, learning all there is to know about everything "they" think I should know... as of "today". This, naturally, will be outdated by the time I get home "tomorrow"... but hey... the SUN was shining today and that's ALL that's important! D47 Re: You make some good points, too, Shadda. I agree that the emitter isn't the hindrance to the Doc that the episode would seem to project. I suspect, however, we are taking things a little too literally here. I think the emitter is supposed to signify his difference from the other beings on the ship. It is this differance, the holographic life vs the organic life, that hinders him. It is this difference that "makes" him feel inferior in the eyes of his fellows (despite the fact that his fellows don't seem to be "looking" at him as an inferior). This misconception makes him angry and causes him to strike out at these (nonexistant) attitudes in his holonovel. Well, that was how I took it. D47 (Trying REALLY hard NOT to be wordy today! Welcome, Monday... Are you new, too... or have I just been gone longer than I thought? D47 Re: Welcome, Monday... I'm new thanks for the welcome :} Re: AUTHOR, AUTHOR Discussion Area (NIM) I noticed a couple of things that bothered me. Why is Seven allowed to have a private conversation and no one else? She gets the whole focus in her scene. Whereas, when Torres' father is saying he can't make up for the last twenty years, who do they focus the camera on? Seven, she gets the close-up. What the heck is that!! Also the Weslified Hanson family led the Federation when Annika was four IIRC. What bugged me was Seven following the conversation that Harry was having with his parents. And being intrusive about it. If there was a technical reason for her being there, either she should have tried not to pay attention or at least pretend that she wasn't. Instead, she was smirking at Harry's parent' behavior and letting Harry know it. BTW, I caught the episode again by accident tonight. And I liked the final trial sequence better for some reason. And the Seven's aunt scene. I must have been distracted on Wednesday. And, oh Mac, I definitely think that the Mark I's were watching the Doc's revised version. The only reason that I can think of them adding a "4 months later" caption is to make clear that the Doc revised his novel for a new publisher. Especially since the scene just before had the Doc wondering if he could find such a publisher and being reassured that he would. Re: "Where is Deb? Is she on vacation or something?" I am very much me, not "Deb!" Thanks for the lending of the crown. As for needing it back in May...maybe we should share it. The series does end on my birthday after all, I expect I will be a wreck! I thought Seven was commiserating and being wryly sympathetic...NIm Re: Welcome, Monday... Hello. Welcome. Kia Ora. The tread was rather a long one this time - All the names were beginning to blurr. I have only just read your post and thought excellent a new person, I better say hi. I am sure you will enjoy the cafe. They are all a very nice group. I didn't see that, Terry! Thanks for the heads up. I'll look for it in repeats. Yes, if that's the case then I do agree it was the revised version. Mrs. Mac She probably was but ... she just shouldn't have been there in the first place. But, of course we know she had to relearn all those "family lessons" from the previous seasons. The crewmembers have barely any privacy on the ship, so this is the least the senior officers should have done to give them a little privacy. When I rewatched, I particularly noticed Harry's discomfort with her listening in, and I didn't laugh at stereo-mom-and-dad like I did the first time around. Biiiig welcome, Monday!! As they say here in Holland: "Hoe meer zielen, hoe meer vreugd!" (="The more souls, the more joy!")
Re: Hoe meer zielen, hoe meer vreugd Thanks Ivy what a lovely saying! Welcome back Deb! I hadn't been posting and really not even lurking that much the last month (yippee, tax season is over) so I wondered where you had gotten to. Now, back to the emitter. Yes, I too think it was supposed to sympolize the fact that he was different. My point, which I didn't make well We all have our areas of expertise and our areas of incompatence, that is what keeps us humble. But the doc doesn't want to have even one tiny area where others might be better then he. Until he learns humility, he won't be sentient. Or course, I don't think he ever will be sentient, but that's another thread. Shadda Thanks, Shadda... and I don't think we're disagreeing here... The Doc IS whining, about something totally unimportant, because he (to quote Jack Nicholsen in "A Few Good Men"... he can't handle the truth! Sentient or not... he's NOT like everyone else on board. He may "look" like them, he may talk like them, he may appreciate a concerto or a "fine looking woman" like them... but he's NOT like them. Never was, never will be. Problem is... its questionable whether he ever "will" find "people" like himself. Unlike Odo who at least "knew" there were others out there like him... Unlike Worf who "knew" and was alternately accepted and rejected by his people, depending on the series and the season... the "Doc" hasn't really found "his race". Since he's "alone", a minority in a world that can't even agree whether he's sentient or not, its easy to see him get defensve and "take offense" even where none is given. Is it right? No. Just understandable. (Thank gosh tax season is over!) D47 | ||
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![[The Voyager Crew]](../images/voyager_crew.jpg)
Are we going to be subject to Seven and Doc episodes the rest of the season?
How many of us have read fanfiction where the authors perceptions of the characters were greatly exaggerated and they act very similar to the Doc's? I have seen quite a few! But I didn't see a complete farce. This is the kind of episode that the Voyager PTB excels at. They produce ensemble pieces that provoke thought and emotion and the cast does an incredible job with these.
And Harry's parents were too cute. They were exactly what I expected. Loving, quirky, proud, delightful and eager. His mom is like I pictured her, so proud of her son, eager to brag. I can just picture that conversation she had with Captain Janeway, though I expect it was a bit one sided. "Oh he is such a good musician. He was in the Julliard Youth Symphony you know..." And of course when's the promotion? Hilarious. A great and funny way to address the ultimate question. Even Seven got a kick out of it. I want to read that letter to Janeway from Harry's mom. The cut off serves as a great segue into dealing with Seven's lack of emotional resonance with Earth. No, she doesn't get it. How could she? I love that it starts to click during B'Elanna's call. She even gives a 30-second warning. The "I can't make up for 20 years" hits a cord with Seven. Parallels her life a bit, doesn't it? And B'Elanna and Seven have "talked" about going back to Earth before. B'El made a crack in "Hope and Fear" saying they could "be outcasts together." If B'Elanna can find something at home, maybe Seven can too. And she does, even as a child she was a stubborn perfectionist. (Was Irene Hanson Kai Winn from DS9?) B'Elanna kicks butt, as always. Her reactions in the holonovel were a riot! But her scene with her dad took my breath away. She took Tom's advice (advice he should take for himself) and let her dad direct the conversation. (23 weeks, that answers that question, it's been bugging me since "Prophesy") Her face when her dad says "you're mother would've liked that," so apparently Miral did die, giving "Barge of the Dead" so much more meaning. When she said, "I'll write you!" I stopped breathing all together. She was grasping for that last shred of contact before he was gone, again. Yowza! Dawson is another one who has those expressive eyes. Whether she is in the show for 30 minutes or 3 I have this lasting image of the power her eyes hold. Oh and "Toby the Targ!" I busted out laughing, where were B'El and Tom for that one? Speaking of Tom...this episode was more about his growth than anyone besides the holodoc. He had a conflict from the Doc from day one which grew into a friendly ribbing. Excepting maybe Seven, Tom spends more time with than anyone. And they've worked closely. It didn't surprise me that he was more hurt than anyone and sought "revenge" as a way of teaching the Doc a lesson. He gave the Doc a taste of his own medicine, a "you think it was hard to work with us, take a look at how I felt." His "I'm surprised you noticed" carried a lot of weight. This encounter is almost a practice run for when he deals with his father. A man he respects appears to have a poor opinion of him (though as far back as Bride of Chaotica we know the Doc likes him and Pathfinder the Adm. says he's proud of him) and Tom fears that this hasn't changed. The Doc's novel reinforces this. How many times has Tom asked how do you see me now or have I changed or has said I'm not what I used to be. No wonder he was "overreacting." And Neelix, I love Neelix, always have always will. He is used so effectively. Running the draw for com calls, the scene in the ready room (his argument to "Jenkins" and Too?), and then giving his call to the Doc after giving him the final nudge he needed to do the right thing. Can I say it again? I love Neelix, always have always will. As amusingly mortified as I was with the depiction of "Jenkins" I have to admit I loved the ready room. Hoo-wee! Nice collection, "Ultimate ActionKate." A trait picked up from the Hirogen? And let's face it, Mulgrew plays dictator well. But the look on Janeway's face at the end of the simulation made me want to shrivel up and die for laughing. Of course this hurts her. The captain in the novel is far too reminiscent of what she could have become, feared she would become and not to mention what she nearly became in "Equinox." She watched "herself" execute a crewmember (almost does this in Equinox) and then decompiles the Doctor (Latent Image). And then the Doc writes this character for publication? Ouch. From the beginning she has dealt with issues of getting to know her crew vs. remaining the captain. Being human vs. needing to be "larger than life" (the Doc does say these characters are larger than life, she herself said, "I only wish I felt larger than life" in an early episode and strikes it from the log because she know she has to be). Could he really see her this way? I thought she was going to rip is photonic throat out through his photonic nose. But she doesn't. The Doc is about as subtle as Chakotay when it comes to storytelling. 
Plus we know from the events of "Flashback" that Tuvok wasn't always fond of humans.