Human Error

Have I ever mentioned that I love classical music?
D'Alaire -- 8 Mar 2001, 03:53 GMT

Ahh. Chopin, Nocturne in E Min., posthumous 72,1.

It's my favorite piece of piano music--when played well, so I did notice how robotic it was in that teeny, tiny teaser, though I was impressed with the selection. Little wonder I shrugged later when Chakotay turned off the metronome. Yep.

Wish they'd done that with the nocturne, though. sigh. It would have improved matters.

(I'm listening to it now, inspired by hearing it on the ep. Ahhhh, much better. And I think there person who had to play it to a metronome was simply croaking if they were an artist.)

I'm not certain how to take this ep. I did think that the "big secret" was let out too late in the game--or maybe it wasn't. I did think that maybe the "danger element" should have been more or less of the plot--and then again it wasn't all that bad, and not useless. It was just...wallpaper.

Some things could have been played up--should have been played up. Others could have been played down.

I dunno. Something about how the plot ran just didn't rub right with me. It...drug. Even while things were developing in Seven's fantasy, it still didn't feel like it was going anywhere. So when we discovered that Seven wasn't going to be able to feel things like everyone else, it was somewhat anti-climactic. Sad, most certainly, but...well, so what?

Okay, she'd like to be normal, but she's scared and bothered by her work being disturbed, likely even embarrassed. So she doesn't have it done.

Back to square one. Okaaaay.

At the same time, I shouldn't say that, because that's quite an unhappy thought. So goes the "tragic figure." At the same time, Seven's the one playing the tragedy queen here. In a way, becoming a normal, emotional, distracted being is as frightening to her "real" self as being disallowed those feelings is demoralizing, just as holo-Chuck pointed out.

Check. --Now what?

She naturally is perturbed, clicked some commands and goes to regenerate. Meeting the real Chak again, he repeats what was going on at the beginning of the ep, and the walks off into the corridor after a "hauntingly knowing" glance. Oh, we shall see? Fine.

Back to square one.

Hmmm.

I'd liked to have seen the real baby shower. I'd liked to have seen more of the crew involved in Seven's...real side of research. The engineering scene--though it really could have been amusing--was colder than it should have been, then tossed aside. Okay, yes, everyone's at work, and Seven's distracted enough to ask Torres about her hair. So what? (And boy, did they make a rightfully busy B'Elanna look cold next to poor little reaching Seven--that irked me.) She lied to Janeway about what she was doing on the holodeck. Nothing came of it.

Again: I dunno. This one wanted to go places and just didn't. It felt flat.

Even Icheb didn't finish his quote fest.

On the Chakotay front: It could have been worse, and for the angle they were trying to get at, he was an appropriate choice. He feels, and encourages her to go with her "gut," so to speak. That's what she was looking for, and she got it. Even when she tried to disengage it, he still pressed hard on her to face herself. Very Chakotay.

Careful what you wish for.

Even so, if it'd been up to me, I think the piano scene should have come first, a friendly meeting--let things develop from there, them having found a ground together. Holo-fantasy or not, it would have felt more natural, at least to me. If they're not going to give a little development/buildup before the fact, at least build it up a little in the ep before dinner and kissing and sacking out on the couch.

Maybe it needs another viewing. (shrug) At this point, I'm counting this as one of those I wanted to feel more for, could see where to feel more for, but just didn't. I was sad for her character, but at the same time, the ep didn't inspire it, really. Thinking on the situation in itself did.

Ah well.

Next week: The last round of repeats before the final throw of episodes...ever. sniff!

A Real Mixed Bag
david g -- 8 Mar 2001, 03:57 GMT

Season Seven has shown a welcome diminution of the Seven presence on VOY--giving both the show and her excellent but overused character, and the excellent but overused Jeri Ryan, a much needed break.

That having been said, she's had one great episode--IMPERFECTION--a bad ep where she had good moments--BODY AND SOUL--and an honorable if tedious ep--REPENTANCE...overall, this hasnt been a great season for Seven, i must say.

As for HUMAN ERROR--it's a real mixed bag, a mixed up episode with good and bad elements.

I really liked it at first--love the more relaxed Seven look and Seven w/out her implants, and what a shame it was only holo-reality. I really liked the scene in her quarters with Neelix.

i also think Jeri Ryan is superb as Seven. even when she's all hotted up, she's vulnerable and touchingly unsure...

i must say, i wasnt crazy about the Chak and Seven stuff here. NOT because i think it's heresy to bring them together--i say this even as a J/Cer--but because the ep never truly convinces me that there's anything going on btwn them. Why is Seven so drawn to Chak? I can understand why she WOULD be, but sofar the PTB havent shown enough of what has recently drawn Seven to Chak.

The B Plot really rked me this time--someone starts to explore their sexual and romantic side, and suddenly there's terrible danger (good effects, though)...it demeaned the A plot but castigating Seven for her tentative forays into adult relationships. The Doc's line--"I wasnt aware you had a personal life"--was pretty offensive, too. I think TPTB unwisely backed off the whole Doc and Seven romance thing, because it would have added more depth.

Janeway's throwaway line, "I make mistakes too" sure didnt...Why have the line in there unless it can be part of a knowing joke we can all share? Janeway came across worse here, much worse, than she did in "The Disease"--like the Doc she seems convinced that Seven's life is hers to pry open. Their holo-scenes were much better.

In sum, i think this ep tried to explore the difficulties Seven faces in becoming an individual, and it's not a BAD ep...

but rather than focusing on an underfelt holo-romance--the problem being that it was underfelt--it should have done what SOMEONE TO WATCH OVER ME did, situate Seven w/in the world of VOY and examne her life within it and with it.

david g

Well put all round, D'Alaire
david g -- 8 Mar 2001, 04:01 GMT

I think Chak IS a logical choice for Seven's fantasies...but the problem here was that the whole romance thing wasnt played...passionately enough.

Beltran did the smirk thing too often for my taste, too--and his last glance seemed, well, leering.

yeah, that Engineering scene shouldve been warmer--Dawson is suually good at showing a nuanced reaction to Ryan.

david g

The long empty hour.....
Eric -- 8 Mar 2001, 04:23 GMT

This episode was a void.

For one long hour my TV was filled with static.

Every now and then something threatned to happen but then nothing continued.

I don't know what to say about this episode really since it started nowhere and went nowhere.

I did have a brief bit of anger when they said Seven can't feel, i guess the writers were in a coma for the last 2 years with Seven when she was afraid, sad and even happy a few times, or how about in love THIS FRELLING YEAR.

But then that to disapeared as they went back to the empty static of the compleate reset button.

This episode meant nothing, i felt nothing and nothing happened.

Eric

Ya, I was fooled by that holo-baby shower too
Q -- 8 Mar 2001, 04:24 GMT

And here I was thinking, "Finaly, there're makeing some physical progress with Seven by removing her implants, suggesting personal quarters, and most importaintly a uniform" but ol' PTB stuck to business as usual.

Anyway, I liked Seven's taste as far as quarter design goes (her dress wasn't bad either ). I really couldn't tell the difference between real-Chak and holo-Chak.

I actually thought the "Space Test Range" B-story in this eps was far more fitting as opposed to the "Space Storm" in "Fair Haven", which felt more like filler.

Seven as I NEVER wanted to see her...
Pixie -- 8 Mar 2001, 06:58 GMT

I am surprised there haven't been howls of outrage over Wonder Borg.

I hated that Seven saves the day, by transporting the detonator at warp speeds. The scene reminded a little of Manuvers were B'Elanna wants to transport Chakotay at warp speed, just as when Chakotay checking up on a tardy Seven reminded me of Remember and B'Elanna's erotic dreams.

I also hate that Seven is now an expert on Native Americans (I have to say that Chakoty is from a Central American tribe and to lump all Native Americans into one culture is like lunmping all Europeans into one culture -- one Swede is the same as Irishperson as a French person, a German etc), a master chef and a pianist.

TANGENT WARNING: Am I the only one that wonders why Chakotay doesn't cook? Logically, Chakotay, Neelix, and Torres should be the ones to cook. Why you ask? Chakotay grew up in a family that shunned technology and I am sure replicators were at the top of the list, just as Torres was raised by a Klingon who we know that don't like replicated food. Heck, I would expect Torres to have hunted and raised livestock growing up. Neelix grew up without replicator technology. Borgy hyper efficient Seven would be the crew member most likely to use the hyper efficient replicators.

I really hate how bit**y Braga wrote Torres and Paris. I hate Braga for trying to make Seven appear "tragic" by making the other characters look bad.

I really felt nothing watching the holo-deck scenes. They were really BORING. Oh wait I hated the baby shower. Let's make it all about Seven. Why is B'Elanna pregnant? I hate P/T but I think it's ridiculous that we didn't get a real wedding, honeymoon(what is the Delta Flyer honeymoon suite)or baby shower.

I thought the whole Borg fail safe is ridiculous. I don't understand why Seven but not the deBorged people don't have this fail safe too. To me, it's just a blatant and idiotic attempt to keep Seven as an outsider. A true fail safe sould kill any Borg that doesn't get connected to the Collective withn a specified period of time. I wonder if Jeri told Braga she was afraid Seven was losing her edge and he wrote this just for her. Anyway I really hope Braga has no more input with repsect to the final episodes. Let him go wreck Series 5, a series I won't be watching and I hope most will not watch leading to a complete change in TPTB.

I agree that this was one wasted hour.

Re: The long empty hour.....
bones -- 8 Mar 2001, 08:38 GMT

Yeah, like hasn't she cried this season in Imperfection, AFTER Icheb donated his cortical node to her. I'd say that kind of happiness is a STRONG emotion, just like her anger and guilt in Repentence. In Body and Soul, the Doctor had a fine time with lots of extreme emotions and since he was in Seven's body, then her cortical node would have exploded. That's the kind of PTB and writing consistency we've had on Voyager.

Dear, god I wish I hadn't seen so much of the Chak and Seven thingee. At least they kept their clothes on. I wish B'Elanna hadn't been so taken aback by Seven's questioning, though they were on duty at the time, but I agree that Dawson was as warm as I'd would have liked, but that's what directors are for, to tell them they need another take or give them direction. Then again, it could have been the director that gave her that direction to take. Even Harry had a disturbingly inconsistent line there, since he was one of the first to notice that there was a "woman," a real person with feelings in Seven. Again, character inconsistency by Braga. I hate him!

bones

Chakotay cooking
Ayesakara -- 8 Mar 2001, 10:16 GMT

Well, he does cook in "Resolutions".

I think he CAN cook. That's the only ep I remember where it was mentioned!

And well, I haven't seen Human Error yet but I am assuming if this scene was part of the holodeck scenario then perhaps Seven wrote him that way!

Ayesha

Yeah, I think the inconsistency bug...
D'Alaire -- 8 Mar 2001, 11:57 GMT

...was flying around my head, too, when I watched it.

I kept on thinking, "Hold on, what about [this time and that time]? Didn't she exhibit [some behavior] that time? Or was it not to the same degree? Where's the difference?"

I will say one thing, the Borg must have skipped at least righteous indignation.

And you're right about Harry, too. Hmm.

Dang, I really did want to like this one more.

I kept falling asleep, Eric.
Nina -- 8 Mar 2001, 13:13 GMT

Or nodding, anyway. I knew I was tired from digging out YET AGAIN (I can't remember having to shovel the same blankety-blank snow THIS many times!), but I expected a first-run Voyager to keep me wide awake.

The writers are stuck in junior high school, IMO. The only "truly powerful" emotions they know about are connected with, um, intimacy. Because you're right, Eric; Seven's emotions haven't been dormant by any means before Holo-Chak made love to her and fought with her. That ending just made no sense.

All that led up to the ending? In my more wakeful moments, I kept hoping. It got sillier, instead.

Dr. O's diagnosis: this one should have been played for comedy for all it was worth, if they had to film it at all. Trying to strike a poignant note with it might have worked - I did feel for Seven a couple of times, believe it or not - but going for "tragic" was a mistake.

Oh, yes, and have I mentioned how much I hate the Doctor's insistence on trying to treat flesh and blood patients' holodeck fantasies as if they were real? And never having any idea, apparently, that there's such a disease in the 24th Century as holo-addiction?

"Tried and missed." Too bad. But at least I wasn't too wound up to go to sleep after I watched it, and the good episodes always do that to me.

Looking on the bright side...I can see over the snowbanks when I pull out of my street! Spring is coming soon!

Why Human Error may be the beginning of the end for Seven
Q -- 8 Mar 2001, 13:53 GMT

Braga's concoction of the contrived Borg fail-safe system (Since "change" along with "continuity" is a four-letter-word to Braga) maybe an indication to where Seven's character will go as the series winds up. Trek Web has an interview posted where Ryan stated that her character will eventually become a "tragic figure".

Perhaps with the realization that she'll never be able to express her emotions as deeply as everyong else, she'll feel her existence as a human being is irrelevant; thus prompting her to make some heroic, brave sacrifice in order for the crew to get home.

Perhaps the rumor several months ago surrounding a character dying on the show was indeed a fact.

My Human Error was watching
Diane -- 8 Mar 2001, 14:11 GMT

This had to be the most boooooorrrring Voyager ever! Maybe this is why it did not appear, like most Seven shows, during sweeps month.

The only good thing that came out of this show was the classical music.

You know, I can't think of anything good to say about this show. The story was bad, Seven's character went nowhere, the acting was mediocore. The story left me with a "So What" feeling. Did Braga want us all to say "Poor Seven"? This wasn't even an ensamble show. It was all Seven with some Chakoaty thrown in. Watching the "Error" I got the feeling Braga was upset that Ryan had been neglected this year, so he forced the issue by writing this story.

Which brings me to thoughts about Braga. He is a good writer, but has his relationship with Ryan blinded him as to what constitute a good story?

I will stop, my mother always taught me if you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all. I am quite now.

Di

Seven can't feel strong emotion? Riiiiight.
AC -- 8 Mar 2001, 14:15 GMT

Oh yeah, like folks are really going to believe THAT after the past few years of sorrow (Drone), and fear (One), and self-righteous fury (infinite number of episodes).

So before, whenever Seven's been a smug self-righteous witch, she's just been logical, huh?

Nope. Don't buy it. This comes across as a lame attempt to make Seven the tragic heroine of Voyager, and it fails miserably.

AC

Have I ever mentioned...
Vickie -- 8 Mar 2001, 14:48 GMT

...just how handsome Robert Beltran is? Or how much I like Chakotay? Or how I would probably pay to watch Robert Beltran read from the phone book? I have? Too many times to count? Yes, well, then you all won't be surprised that I found this episode to be a true visual pleasure. What can I say, I'm hopelessly shallow.

What did I think of the episode aside from the Beltran-gazing opportunities? Shrug. There were many things I didn't like, but all I can say is, "Yeah, so what else is new?" At this point I don't even care enough to whine about most of them.

Note that I said most of them, not all of them. Right at the beginning I almost leaped out of my chair when Janeway, having been informed that the area ahead was 1. the source of some kind of energy waves, 2. had high levels of subspace radiation and 3. contained lots of metallic debris, said, "I don't see any reason to avoid the area." Ummm, begging the Captain's pardon and with all due respect, but ARE YOU NUTS?

I was also tremendously disappointed at the resolution of the episode. Seven's cortical implant won't allow her to feel emotion? EXCUSE ME?? Question to writers: Have you people not been reading your own scripts? And of course, the good old reset button...let's just pretend this never happened.

In conclusion, have I ever mentioned just how handsome Robert Beltran is?

Vickie

I hate to say this....
Ivy -- 8 Mar 2001, 15:20 GMT

but I actually wouldn't mind seeing Seven die. Since she got on Voyager, I've started to dislike her character. As everybody said, she's just too much the WonderBorg. And making her tragic won't help for me.

Now I don't mean you'd see me with a sign saying "Die Seven die" but I really, really wouldn't mind. I'd just be sitting there thinking "Get on with it". (shrug)

I hope I didn't piss off too many 7fans here.

At this point i really wouldn't mind it....
Eric -- 8 Mar 2001, 15:30 GMT

....if the show ended with Voyager flying into a large astroid and blowing up with all hands on board.

This show is over.

Eric

Bad Fanfic Live On-Screen!
Ronit -- 8 Mar 2001, 15:52 GMT

An episode to be viewed on an empty stomach since it was so nauseatingly painful. That includes the angsty, melodramatic resolution, which seems to point to Seven as the Great Tragic Figure of Voyager's Last Season.

In addition to all the continuity errors pointed out by everyone else, I'm really in shock at the trashing of the Janeway/Seven relationship.

Re the Torres coiffure scene.... I actually thought Torres was being incredibly patient and kind towards Seven.

Seven: "Can I ask you a personal question?"

Gee, this is the person who once SPIED ON and INTRUDED on B'Elanna's personal life. I'd expect her response to be a lot warier, more along the lines of "Maybe" or "Depends on the question" or even "Later? In private, when we're not in the middle of a firing zone".

Ronit

Eric's right.
Fliteman -- 8 Mar 2001, 16:17 GMT

I flipped channels at one point and found Drew Carey to be more interesting and realistic. 'Nuff said there.

Another thing... Has Seven lied before...? I'm not comfortable with her lying to Janeway about what she was doing on the holodeck. That's just not...efficient.

Flite

The human error was making that ep...
Mike -- 8 Mar 2001, 16:18 GMT

I had some REAL problems with this episode:

1) I didn't like how Seven put her untimely personal crisis above the safety of the ship and crew. AND I don't accept any excuses about her being tired and not thinking clearly. She should have followed the doctor's advice and regenerated. This would have been a better story if the ship were not in mortal danger at the same time she was "experimenting" with fricken romance!

2) I'm sick of seeing "romance" episodes with cop outs like the main character's big romance only took place because they lost their identity and memory...oh wait, that was last week...this week it was the hologram lover cop out again.

3) Seven feels remorse for neglecting her duty, so what does she do after Janeway puts her down and tells her not to leave her post again with out telling Chuck, Seven leaves the kid in charge and goes off yet AGAIN to "resolve things"!!! Hey, things will be resolved in your personal life just fine when the fricken ship blows up cause you weren't at your post AGAIN!

4) But all is forgiven in the end. It's okay, folks, because our borg heroine saves the ship with a last minute ingenious idea only seconds before the ship blows up. Yeah, let's just forget she screwed up big time, nobody else was smart enough to save the ship [barf].

5) AND, how come this built in borg saftey mechanism didn't cause her problems during her many past emotional experiences! I can think of many instances where her unborg like "human feelings" surfaced. This BS just came out of no where.

6) At least they could have ended it with Seven excepting Chuck's offer to socialize. Instead she rejects it and walks off.

7) On the bright side, it's to bad something didn't really develop between Seven and Chakotay, I thought the actors had a real chemistry going there. Of course we were cheated once again. I'm ready for the last episode.

It sures pays to have a boyfriend amoung TPTB, Ryan.

This episode made me miss the old days of counting how many shuttles got destroyed in one season .

And one more thing while I'm up on my soapbox. What the heck is the problem with UPN news in my area! The top news story teaser for the news was possible info on the next Trek series, not the latest high school shootings and deaths, or the story of a little girl killed by a school bus. This same thing happened when there was that earthquake in Washington a week ago. The news opening went something very much like this : "Revealing details on Seven' of Nines' big love scene episode (insert shot of Jeri sucking on Beltran's finger)...and oh yeah there was some earthquake in Washington and people were hurt or something". Geesh! Get your priorities straight UPN news!

Mike - I'm disgusted- D.

Now to read what you all thought.

Vickie, last night was a Candy fest for Beltran lovers
Diane -- 8 Mar 2001, 16:33 GMT

He does have a great smile. Well, thanks for pointing out the only redeeming factor of The Error.

Di

Well, I liked it!
Jason -- 8 Mar 2001, 16:57 GMT

I didn't have any major problems with it, and in fact I thought that the biggest flaw was Robert Beltran's line delivery and whoever styled Kate Mulgrew this week.

Otherwise I thought the show was a well-stated sequel of sorts to "Someone to Watch Over Me" and Seven acted out in interesting ways that were still true to her character.

Plus, she looked REALLY good at that piano!

Jason

Just plain lousy. Do the writers read the stuff they write?...
Mindy -- 8 Mar 2001, 17:12 GMT

Do they watch the shows when they air???

Seven has displayed a lot of heavy-duty emotions in the past few years...I've seen her get angry, cry, smile, get jealous....

And since when does the Doctor not know she has a personal life??? He's the one who's been helping her build it, for cryin' out loud!!!!!! In fact, he should have been way more involved in this whole show, not only as a doctor and a pyschologist and even a sex counselor, but as someone who loves her. Excuse me, Mr. Berman, Mr. Biller...remember SOMEONE TO WATCH OVER ME???

And Seven deliberately, blatantly LIES to the Captain and gets away with it????????? Excuse me??? How could they ignore such a great opportunity to do something with that idea??????

This show was played out in a vacuum.

I could write a diatribe, in fact, I began to, and then I got really tired and deleted it. It all came down to this:

HUMAN ERROR was lousy.

Just plain lousy.

Mindy

Re: The long empty hour.....
Mindy -- 8 Mar 2001, 17:15 GMT

Eric, you are so right!!!! We are so in agreement!!!! (I posted my thoughts before I read yours.)

Mindy

I don't get it. How could they produce LINEAGE, and then produce...
Mindy -- 8 Mar 2001, 17:18 GMT

...this piece of juvenile crap????

I wish the guy who wrote LINEAGE had been assigned or allowed or whatever you have to do to this story idea. It would have been so different.

I am so disappointed.

Mindy

The tragedy is that she can't fully attain/regain her humanity, Q.
Mindy -- 8 Mar 2001, 17:25 GMT

Not that she might die...

And not that I think this episode was anything but lousy.

I wish they could go back to the drawing board on this one. I really do. Because what's frustrating is that the idea(s) behind this story had so much potential, and it went nowhere.

Mindy

Welllll... Eric's not THAT right...
Fliteman -- 8 Mar 2001, 19:04 GMT

I don't want to see Voyager just blink out of existence. Sure, kill off half the crew, but... let SOME of 'em make it. It does truly FEEL like the show is winding down, tho... which, at least, makes ME sorry.

Flite

I have mixed feelings about this one.
D -- 8 Mar 2001, 19:30 GMT

SciFi was showing the Stargate movie last night and I'd never seen it so I kept flipping between channels.

I'm glad they finally addressed some of the issues with Seven - clothing, rank (or lack thereof), real quarters, social situations, etc. But I think it would have been more effective if some of that carried over into in real life too. We know she can function wearing regular clothes and sleeping, not regenerating. And they spent too much time on the holo-Chakotay business as far as I'm concerned.

Must have been a relief for Ryan to get to wear normal clothes and not have all that stuff stuck on her face and hand for a lot of the scenes.

They got some of the continuity right: Seven's developing interest in food and cooking. Janeway monitoring excessive holodeck usage (I imagine this has been standard practice since "Extreme Risk"), though I'm not sure why she didn't press the matter more. Gradually improving relations between Seven and B'Elanna (Torres' reaction seemed appropriate given the interruption). If Janeway is Seven's surrogate mother, B'Elanna's becoming the closest she has to an older sister, the one she goes to when she needs to talk about personal stuff, and their bickering sure sounds like what I remember between some of my cousins. Neelix's concern about window curtains. Icheb's Academy studies. And I liked him deciding to find the origin of all the sayings he keeps hearing.

Recycling: The room with the piano looked like it was the set from Janeway's Gothic novel. Seven's uniform (Relativity) and turtleneck outfit (Killing Game).

My thoughts exactly!
NCC Vicki -- 8 Mar 2001, 19:58 GMT

I have to come out of lurkdom to say that I sat through most of this thinking, 'Wow, this is like really bad fanfic!' I mean, Seven stroked his tattoo, for crying out loud! AAAH!

I don't know if it was my latent J/C leanings rising to the fore, but watching Seven and holo-Chakotay made my teeth hurt.

Vicki

Not a bad Beltran showcase but.....
Voyager Fan (yes still.....) -- 8 Mar 2001, 20:58 GMT

Chakotay wasn't half bad. He definitely was NOT sleepwalking, but with Jeri's assets practically at eye level he would be hard pressed to fall asleep. Their holo-relationship was plausible, I thought. I liked the way they related, their banter and sexual tension (although this even dragged a bit), Chakotay encouraging Seven not to shy away from her true emotions - in character for both of them.

One nit - there was no reason to remove Seven's implant in the holo-simulation. The only purpose that served was eye candy, although most adolescent males probably weren't looking at her eyes. Ahem.

The REAL pathetic thing about this episode was giving SEven a cop out, she can't feel UNLESS she gets some operations from the Doctor. So she bags the whole human emotion thing because she was having trouble balancing work and play anyway.

I thought that had a ring of truth to it, the problems of balancing work and play. When you find a new interest (and for Seven it was basically a romantic interest) its hard to focus on your job. Maybe SEven could have just told Janeway Fair Haven the truth, and said "I was practicing human dating rituals and it was more fun than I expected" or something to that effect, without revealing Chakotay was her paramour. (Although we all know Janeway secretly wants Chakotay and would have been a bit bereft if she knew the gorgeous borg wanted her first officer

I would have preferred honesty to the ambigous conversation they had, where Janeway clearly suspects SEven is lying but doesn't call her on it, or where Janeway may even KNOW what Seven is doing (she's examined holoprograms before without their author's knowledge) but keeps quiet.

It would have been interesting to have Chakotay rather than the Doctor walk in on her holofantasy when she was stricken.

Even better, they could have even done this whole thing WITHOUT the holodeck, Seven and Chakotay could have started a friendship blossoming romance and it interferred with her performance (but not Chakotay's, obviously, since he's experienced with relationships) and then she broke it off for that reason, or maybe they keep it going.

Okay, I have to run. But overall, this episode gets a C--. I didn't HATE it, but it was just one major cop out after another....

Angela

not exactly finger-licking good, was it?
Lauren -- 8 Mar 2001, 21:03 GMT

In addition to the very obvious continuity problems re: Seven's experiencing strong emotions in the past, I was disturbed by the fact that no one addressed the awkwardness Seven should have felt in dealing with Chakotay in person after the holo-romance got going. I did notice though, that when he spoke to her (in Astrometrics?), she appeared to have trouble looking him in the eye.

The issue shouldn't have been that a personal life interferes with professional responsibilities but that carrying on make-believe relationships with acquaintenances interferes with having real relationships with those people.

I also don't get Seven's "tragic" decision at the end. Doc can cure her. It won't be easy but it will work. Seven is supposed to be pretty resilient but she totally dismisses a surgical solution out of hand. I don't see that as tragic, I see it as misguided.

Also, even if she chooses not to have deep emotional attachments or whatever caused her problems, why does that preclude cooking or piano playing or light socializations? It seems that Seven has found a convenient excuse to avoid growing as an individual.

Oh, and Mike, here in Connecticut we must get the same UPN newscast that you get. I only watch it sometimes on Wednesday, since VOY is the only UPN show I watch, and I'm amazed that each week the main story is VOY or series V related!

Well, my husband at least had a good time watching Jeri Ryan all glammed up with her hair down and all (although he would have been just as happy had the sound been turned off) and Robert Beltran *did* actually have some real screen time, for a change.

Still, I felt the same way I did during DS9's final season when they aired a particularly weak episode: with so little time left, why waste an hour on such drivel!

IMHO, Lauren

Maybe Braga has fantasies about...
Mindy -- 8 Mar 2001, 21:35 GMT

a menage a trois with Jeri and Robert, and this was his way of actually doing it????

Eewwwww!!!!

Mindy

Good points about "tragic" Seven, Lauren...
Mike -- 8 Mar 2001, 21:58 GMT

Lauren wrote: "I also don't get Seven's "tragic" decision at the end. Doc can cure her. It won't be easy but it will work. Seven is supposed to be pretty resilient but she totally dismisses a surgical solution out of hand. I don't see that as tragic, I see it as misguided."

Yeah, good point, Lauren. What was the deal with that? It was like Seven *wanted* to play the martyr. The doc said there was a chance and she turned her back on taking it, much like she turned her back on Chuck's invitation to join him and the others for dinner at the end. That whole tragic Seven story idea was one big misfire (in my not so humble opinion )

Lauren: "Oh, and Mike, here in Connecticut we must get the same UPN newscast that you get. I only watch it sometimes on Wednesday, since VOY is the only UPN show I watch, and I'm amazed that each week the main story is VOY or series V related!"

It's a sad revelation of what the UPN execs think they need to do to get us to watch their third rate news show here. I can imagine the execs talking about it: "Viewers don't care about how many people died in an earthquake or about peace talks failing in the middle east, they want to see Jeri sucking on Beltran's finger in a future Voy episode". When they do this as the top headline my wife really goes ballistic, even more than me. We care more about real peoples lives, UPN News, not fictional characters! Give us some credit for not being total idiots.

Lauren: "and Robert Beltran *did* actually have some real screen time, for a change"

That explains the silly grin on my wife's face during this episode...I imagine Vic T. had the same type of grin watching Chuckles too. Hey, at least *I* can cook!

Mike

PS-board response time has been very good lately, Jules.

Human Error Doesnt Mean We Should Write off S7 as One Big Error, though! NIM
david g -- 8 Mar 2001, 22:15 GMT

(Ivy does the grossed out dance)
Ivy -- 8 Mar 2001, 22:30 GMT

That would be SO immature!!

I think...
Ivy -- 8 Mar 2001, 22:35 GMT

... that's what they mean by "tragic": the fact that Seven still shies away from real human contact.

removal of implants
lurker -- 8 Mar 2001, 22:36 GMT

Angela said:

One nit - there was no reason to remove Seven's implant in the holo-simulation. The only purpose that served was eye candy, although most adolescent males probably weren't looking at her eyes. Ahem.

I think that the purpose of Seven covering up her implants on the holodeck was a part of her desire to be more human and less Borg. We heard yet again in this episode that Seven can't survive if they are removed, and she obviously has a hard time dealing with that emotionally, as it will always prevent her from becoming totally human. I think this was the reason, not so much the eye candy factor.

BWAHAHAAAAA!!!!
D'Alaire -- 8 Mar 2001, 23:00 GMT

Take your best shot, Freud!

Certainly not! I've loved this season. Yet despite this board's average thoughts...
D'Alaire -- 9 Mar 2001, 00:21 GMT

..., I've been hearing very positive things about the ep. Over at Trek Web, the opinions there so far are also favorable.

I wish I could see what they see. Oh, do I wish, because the more I think about this ep and read the inconsistency points and about the boo-hoo Seven theme, the less I find myself trying to find things to like about it--which is all to easy in this case. It's also quite easy to mark this one as yet another blatant gyration on a particular writer's part.

sigh. I really didn't want to go back to the dark side--the negativity I was feeling at about this time last season (gratefully near to ending then). Until this ep, I could safely say I've at least liked every ep this season, even the YAATE and cliched Repression. Ah well. I have hopes for most of the remaining eps that I know about.

Still, like Mindy pointed out, the comparison between HE and eps like Lineage is just boggling, thematically, character growth-wise, development and plot-wise....sigh.

I don't say this often, but I really can't wait for the Cynic's Corner review to come out.

Human Error - Seven *is* human.
Mr. Mac. -- 9 Mar 2001, 01:15 GMT

Who wrote this episode? Jeri's boyfriend? It looked like a future audition tape episode. Let's put Seven in a revealing dress (not that I minded), let's put Seven in a Starfleet outfit, let's get Seven to makeout with Chuckles, let's remove her implants and hairpins, etc..

This whole episode bothered me. You can't be anything but what you are in the Holodeck. So why is it that Seven can be charming, alluring, talented, and beloved in the holodeck but a wet blanket in real life? It isn't her implants that hold her back. Obviously she is capable. It's unfortunate that in the years that Seven has been aboard Voyager we discover in one episode what Seven has actually learned: to lie (to Janeway), to be selfish (the holoprogram comes before her duties), to be anti-social (the party, Chuckles' invite), and to quit when the going gets tough.

In conclusion? I'll take the chick with the engine grease in her "coiffure." Low maintenance. High ambition.

Mac

Re: Human Error
AChampagne -- 9 Mar 2001, 01:15 GMT

I share the general lukewarm feeling here. There were a few things that I think might have enhanced the epsidoe had there been a stronger story line. For instance, in the holo baby shower Seven was very personable and that toast was very appropriate and well thought out. Not a single Borg like comment among them. Yet when she actually presents the gift to B'Elanna she is very stiff and practical as ever. You would think that she would have made slightly more effort to exercise her social skills that she was so dilignnetly trying to hone.

Another nice touch was that she reverted to her borg like 'it's irrelevant, it's inefficient' while 'breaking up' with Chak in the holodeck. It was subtley nuanced, and would ahve carried slightly more punch had I been worked up to give a hoot about the relationship as a whole.

Andrea

P.S. starfleet issue diapers (snort chuckle chuckle very cute touch):b

Hmmmm. But is Baktag watching the holodeck?
Deb47 -- 9 Mar 2001, 01:19 GMT

Seems like I'm late to the party again, so will post before I read.

(Easier to stick my typewriter in my mouth that way. )

Before I try to be "serious", I have to say one thing.

The Doc was right.

Seven HAS good taste, and I'm NOT talking about how she decorates her quarters!

Seriously, I was struck by several things. Seven's holofantasy was "right on" in its interpretation of the various characters involved. Neelix's insights were typical of him, and not simply Seven putting words into his mouth. The same thing could be said for Chakotay (except for that greeting about moonblossoms. That was a little saccharine even for him!). His arguments about "how" she does things, or his humor over her directing how he chopped vegetables was classic Chak.

(Okay, the lack of Vegetarianism was striking, but then again, that's probably poetic license, like Janeway's "Delete wife" line.)

I thought it was very interesting that the story let us explore various fantasies that I "would not" have expected from Seven. Seven's desire to "look/be" fully" human. Her desire for a UNIFORM. (See, even SHE's tired of the catsuit!) Her desire for privacy/quarters... and the advantages said privacy can bring.

I absolutely CRINGED when the Doctor said... "I wasn't aware you HAD a personal life"... cause it was so true, and therefore so sad. She works, she eats, she regenerates... and let's ALL (EMH, Chakotay, Janeway) really be surprised when she does anything that strays from that scenario.

"Why isn't Seven at her post?"

Exactly! Its not just her vocation, its her avocation... and to think of her anywhere else is as unexpected as..as... as the EMH betraying Voyager to help beings of his "own race".

I loved the fact that at first, we see her practicing for a social engagement.... Tom & B'Elanna's baby shower.

How often have you ever rehersed yourself before a new and frightening social/business engagement. How "witty"/"insightful" do you sound in those practice sessions? Probably as good as "I" sound when I sing in the shower!

The only problem with "practicing" on a holodeck (or in your mind's eye) is that things never go as well as you want. Because the people in "real" life may not respond as well as their programmed counterparts.

Look at what happened when Seven decided to"correct" her social gaffe of missing the baby shower. B'Elanna is so shocked she doesn't know what to do with the present! And when Seven decides to go "even further" and share a personal comment/make a personal connection with B'Elanna over something so innocuous as "hair"... B'Elanna falls back on a tried and true Tom tactic. make a joke and move on.

(Must admit, I loved Harry's "Must be an alien intruder on board" comment, even while it shows just how isolated Seven truly is, on Voyager.)

Sigh.

We know Seven has always been alone... but still, it was sad to see how far apart she is from the crew.

Thank God for Icheb! He's such a supporter of her, and yet so clueless sometimes.

"I neglected my duties and as a result Voyager was nearly destroyed. I thought you might have a quotation to help me deal with my guilt."

"No.... but I could search the database."

Isn't he so sweet!

And yet, he's not someone she can truly confide in. As The EMH said in the second ep this year, she's his "mentor". She can't allow him to see her weak/unsure.

But she's more unsure than she's willing to let on... and has been for awhile.

Unimatrix Zero did more to her than she's willing to admit to anyone... it reminded her of how mch fun it was, to have friends, to "belong", to love someone, and to have someone love her.

"All" those things she'd spent the previous 3 seasons reassuring everyone within hearing that SHE didn't need.

Sigh.

Not that Janeway ever believed her.

And now, this.

When she's finally come to grips with the idea that there IS worth in such social customs, such emotions, and is willing to start bridging the gap in small (loved those baby shoes/baby steps?) ways... she finds she can't control it.

A friend laughed this morning, talking about this ep. She recalled how "obsessive" she and her (then) future husband were when they first started dating. (Of course, she added, we didn't have the safety of a starship resting on our shoulders... "but still" )

The thing that Seven had valued for so long, her control, was GONE!

In its place was an obsessed woman who she did not recognize.

An obsessed woman who actually LIED to Janeway!

Oy Vey!

Did you notice?

Janeway knew it too.

Was it because she'd already accessed Seven's holoprograms, and knew their content?

I doubt it.

Janeway's comments in "Extreme Risk" suggested just how private those programs were, and she breeched B'Elanna's privacy only because they knew of B'Elanna's significant injuries.

Seven's transgressions were still not serious enough to warrant that action.

But then again, like Janeway told her in "Dark Frontier"... "And I know you. What aren't you saying?"

Janeway knew she was lying, and since she's walked in THOSE obsessed holographic moccasins quite recently ("I've been known to make some mistakes."), she could hazard a pretty good guess what was going on... (if not with "who". )

The ending, made me think of several things.

Geordie, refusing Dr Pulaski's (?) offer to try for real eyes... which he politely refused when she pointed out he might lose ALL function if she tried and failed.

And the "Flash".

I don't remember which one, but it seems one of the DC Universe Comicbook heroes was faced with the realization that if he ever used his superspeed again... it would take time off his life.

Seven has begun to feel again. We know how she feels about Janeway, and for those not playing along with the "home game" version of Voyager these last 3 years, you learned of it again last night.

We know she desires friendships with the crew, and wishes to rekindle those loves she lost in Unimatrix Zero.

And we know she is afraid of these desires because of her "less than perfect" handling of them.

Much like her "less than perfect" playing of that music...without the metronome.

It frightens her. As much as it entices her.

And if she's not careful, it will kill her.

Where are my boundaries?

If I "love" my Captain, and did not trigger my failsafe before, can I do so again today?

If I come to love Neelix, or B'Elanna on Voyager... will I trigger my failsafe?

If I allow myself to fall in love with Chakotay, or with Axum... will it be the last thing I do?

And if I allow these people to love me back, and it triggers my failsafe... how will THEY live with the guilt?

In one sense, I "didn't" like the final scene.

I thought, "better it was Janeway" in that corridor, someone we know she ALREADY loves... and "why" have her simply walk down the corridor alone?

But then I remembered the "bridge.

Chakotay telling Janeway "Maybe YOU should ask her..." and Seven's baldfaced lie to Janeway. I can hear Janeway coming over to Chakotay after that, and saying... "Maybe YOU should ask her. Maybe SOMEONE ELSE needs to make an effort to bring her into the "fold".... and that's just what Chak tried to do.

Invite her to join Voyager... in the safe company of some of the few people she's already reached out to.

Chakotay (Survival Instinct), Tuvok (Hunters, Tsunkatse,) Neelix (Dragon's Teeth) and B'Elanna (Imperfection).

He offered her the opportunity to fly at supersonic speed.... and she weighed the risks... and had to walk away.

Alone.

"I have an Ocampan who wants to be something more, and a Borg who's afraid of becoming something less."

One.

D47

Re: Hmmmm. But is Baktag watching the holodeck?
Mr. Mac. -- 9 Mar 2001, 01:32 GMT

Very good, Deb. Nice analysis and a different view of the way I was thinking. Even her singing in the episode with the doc was "perfect pitch." It's sad. Yea, she is tragic - by choice. Mac.

On Saturday I saw Itzak Perlman accompanied buy Janet Guggenhiem.
Shadda -- 9 Mar 2001, 01:56 GMT

My heart and soul soared. I wonder how they got so good? Did they download how to play the violin and piano 10 minutes before they walked out on stage?

Seven is an affront to all the people who work and struggle and sweat and fight and knash there teeth learning and perfecting what they do. Tragic? She had a bad childhood. There are some who have had worse. Cowardly? Yes, that is a good discreption. The writers who insist that she is more then what she is are simple minded and tiresome.

I found this episode insipid. I found this episode a slap in the face to the rest of the cast. Why couldn't someone else have saved the day? Why couldn't B'Elanna have stepped in in Astrometrics when Seven kept screwing up. Logically, that is exactly what would have happened. Why was Janeway stupid? Why was B'Elanna bitchy? Why was Paris cruel? These characters don't act like that but we must make Seven a tragic figure so the only way to do that is to trash the rest of the cast.

Sorry, I was going to be good and not write negative things. Good thing I didn't give that up for Lent. Okay, not another word.

Shadda

I SOOO Agree!
Tim Holden -- 9 Mar 2001, 01:59 GMT

From what I have seen so far season 7 seems pretty good on the whole. There have been a couple of same old same old eps and a few that were waaay too preachy (Doc and his Hirogen Holograms for example) but a lot of the eps were not half as bad as indicated here.

I look forward to Jules next Voyager marathon.

Tim

Choice... Mac,
Deb47 -- 9 Mar 2001, 02:02 GMT

Isn't that where so much tragedy springs from?

Its sad when someone loses their life in a fire... but "tragic" when they lose it because they ran into it by choice.

Sure, it can be argued that Seven is a "coward" for not accepting the Doc's offer of surgical correction... and yet. Look at all the trouble they went through, going after that new cortical node in the first place.

The Doc can't guarantee success (who can?) but she knows she can "feel" somethings now. (Like Geordie could see "somethings" with his visor).

She's not ready to "lose" her life over the "attempt" to feel more, anymore than Geordie was ready in season 2 to lose his eyesight.

Remember, so far all she's "really" losing is a fantasy relationshp with Chakotay.

One day, when she starts to develop another relationship... with a "flesh & blood" (Sorry "Doc") person, she will reconsider that surgery.

But right now... its just too uncertain for her to risk losing the cortical node and life Icheb and Janeway bought for her with their sacrifices.

(Well, that's my viewpoint. )

D47

On that "choice"
Nina -- 9 Mar 2001, 02:22 GMT

While I didn't have the positive response to the episode that you did, Deb, I concur with you on Seven's decision against the surgery - and I've something to add.

The Doctor meant well, but good grief. He came down on her like the proverbial ton of bricks, in his enthusiasm for starting that series of procedures that (a) like just about everything else he's done for Seven, would be experimental; (b) he told her up front would have difficult recovery periods; (c) could take away what life she's got now. He did that within 10 seconds of telling her that her emotions can kill her, that she's in effect carrying a time bomb around (and has been for years without knowing it).

Give the woman time to absorb it, for heaven's sake! Let her back off from the whole "social interaction" thing for awhile, until her bruises heal. I didn't find that need on Seven's part unrealistic or cowardly at all. I just found it amazingly normal.

The truly bizarre thing, D'Alaire, is that it's SEVEN who got shafted
david g -- 9 Mar 2001, 02:27 GMT

Usually, Seven eps are strong and compelling...

fora but the first 1/3 of the ep, i thought this might be another LINEAGE..

it just self-destructed...

david g

Teenage angst. Perhaps I have misjudged.
Shadda -- 9 Mar 2001, 03:01 GMT

How wonderfully angsty in a very teenage way this show was. I didn't think of that at first, and I certainly should have having just finished with 8 years of teenage angst under my own roof. No one is more tragic then a teenager. That is about the maturity level of Seven, and apparently the writers if this episode.

Okay, this makes the episode far more amusing and interesting then I first thought. Any parents of teenagers out there? Do they not live on the edge? Are their lives not tragic most of the time? Unfortunately, sometimes their lives are tragic, and then we get Santee and Comlumbine. Of course when viewing those two tragadies, Seven's angst pales in comparison.

Yea, Seven is, oh about 16, in this one. That works for me.

Shadda

Human Error made me feel sorry for...
Pixie -- 9 Mar 2001, 03:31 GMT

1. characters like Torres and Paris, who were written out of character and like jerks in a blatant attempt to manipulate the audience, and

2. the audience.

I can't and don't feel sorry for Seven. She abandoned her post in an EMERGENCY. That is unacceptable. I really disagree with anyone who reads Janeway's slight reprimand as meaning that the crew wants Seven to remain Borg for they're selfish reasons.

This crew (with the possible B'Elanna as written under Braga as a two not character) has bent over backwards to make Seven feel welcome. She is better treated than Neelix and Tuvok. Tom reached to her in DOH. He invites her, not B'Elanna, to be his coswain in 30 Days, to play on his holodeck programs in Night, and Fair Haven. Janeway confides in Seven and invites her to her holo-programs (DaVinci's Workshop and Velocity), Harry tried to reach out to her (granted his motives are suspect-- the horn dog), Doc, Naomi and Neelix have been good to her and very social with her. Even B'Elanna was kind to her in Imperfection. I hate how Braga writes B'Elanna. He writes her as a super b@tch to make his Favorite seem warmer and discriminated against. The one time B'Elanna had every reason to rip into Seven (One Small Step were the systmes go down because of Seven's unapproved actions) there is no confrontation.

Re: Bad Fanfic Live On-Screen!
Quince -- 9 Mar 2001, 04:27 GMT

Oy. And how. Lizzie Borden is the only woman in the universe who could have dealt with the line, "You look beautiful while you're chopping." It could have been worse. I was terrified they were going to make a pun about Chopin.

Oh, and note to Beltran and too many other actors: the word is "duty" not "doody" as in Howdy.

Or why Braga should let Jeri Taylor write romances, and Chakotay should only be paired with Janeway.
Roxanne -- 9 Mar 2001, 07:36 GMT

No room for NIM

Actually, David, I think *we're* the ones...
D'Alaire -- 9 Mar 2001, 11:59 GMT

...who got the shaft in the end, good or bad, IMO.

(Prepare for tired mood, as I know I'm not saying anything new here. )

Seven usually does [did] have good eps, because she was fresh and "compelling" and good eye candy for the YAMs, and so they took an extra special effort with her, often at the cost of other characters, and/or their stories.

Unfortunately, they did this so often that even by last season, most of "Seven's self-discovery" was old. Meanwhile, the other characters still usually didn't get much in the way of a nod.

How fun it is to dress Barbie up in a plot and send her on an adventure. This time, they included hunky Ken. Ronit nailed it with the "fanfic" idea. HE reeked of gratification complex mixed with some angst so one might say there was a plot. At least that's how it looks from this vantage, the was it was delivered.

Sure, there were moments where I was quite impressed (Imperfection in particular took a nice effort--though, yes, that was 7th season, not the 4-6th), but not that often that I'd call it the norm. And frankly, I've been quite relieved at the fewer of Seven eps. I wish they'd had such restraint before. Maybe they wouldn't be bulldozing themselves now if they had. I wouldn't feel like I do about her character if they had.

Anyway, this time around, nothing really came out well. No growth for Seven, but instead they ran backwards over a hundred of their already used ideas, and most of the other characters didn't end up looking too good, either, and again. Even in her "saving the day," Seven hardly looked good, herself, even if--again--she had no real consequences to deal with and everything was set back to square one with that pitifully Bragaesque ending. The ep was designed, I think, to inspire some kind of pity (maybe as setup, maybe just because), but that didn't quite work out for me, either.

"Fell flat" is right--and an understatement in this case. And I do pity that much, because I did want this to be a good ep, wanted to enjoy it--much like I'd like to enjoy her character more, but just can't anymore, most of the time.

Not to mention the fact that JLR got a nomination as best supporting actress (which I know in my heart should be a happy thing) simply makes me grind_my_teeth.

But that another topic. I'll wait until I'm in a really bad mood to discuss that one.

D'Alaire, Best Support Actress for what award? NIM
Mrs. Mac -- 9 Mar 2001, 12:30 GMT

Re: "Good Grief"...
Deb47 -- 9 Mar 2001, 12:54 GMT

Nina said..."The Doctor meant well, but good grief. He came down on her like the proverbial ton of bricks, in his enthusiasm for starting that series of procedures that.... "

To be "fair"... (and I always "try" to be fair... except when I want MY way... ) the Doc was doing what he "always" does. Coming at a problem from "his" viewpoint.

And isn't that the problem you were complaining about recently with physicians in general?

Its a sin he's been guilty of before... most notably when counseling Janeway in that corridor scene from "Fairhaven". That time he was arguing that it was "okay" for her to have fun and games with a hologram ("Flesh & blood, photons or forcefields, what's the difference if you care for someone?")

Unfortunately, the Doc was relating Mike's "Photons/forcefields" with his own. A error nearly as egregious as Idan's (name?)when he "liberated" those neanderthal holograms from those 2 miners in "Flesh & Blood".

The Doc has been working to "awaken" feelings in Seven for years, and we have known that for the last 2 he certainly had an ulterior motive.

He saw their goal within reach and glossed over all the "negative" aspects of the problem and tried to "put her at ease" with his overconfidence.

That happens all the time, unfortunately.

The news was full of "OH MY" stories last night. "Did you KNOW?!" that "gosh!" Mammograms are NOT the PERFECT test? That they actually MISS some cancers?

STOP the presses and call the cops!

Unfortunately, in their zeal to push mammography, some campaigns have evidently "suggested" that mammos are "perfect" or nearly so... and even more unfortunately, people have believed them. They were not truly "informed" of the risks/benefits of the procedure. (risks= missing 10% of cancers. Benefits=finding 90% of cancers)

The Doc "did" his duty re: "informed consent"... he told her of the risks, the recuperation problems and yet... by glossing over them he also negated his informed consent duty.

Believe me, Nina... this is a common pitfall in medicine. And one of the reasons is... Docs have not only been sued for "not" doing "I.C" correctly (Like the EMH did this week)... they've been sued for NOT convincing the patient to "follow" their advice. So... some Docs feel compelled to "gloss" over.

It ain't right, and we both know it.

And yet, Nina... look at all the posters above who railed against Seven's "cowardice" over her refusal to try the Doc's regimen.

Seems like the "jury" has come in, and rather than point fingers at him for "glossing", they're ready to throw tomatoes at her for running.

"Good grief" indeed.

D47

After this review I may have to increase my rating!!
voyagerfan -- 9 Mar 2001, 13:18 GMT

That was certainly an interesting way to look at the episode. I'll have to go watch it again to see if any of it rings true...

Angela

p.s. does this mean you don't hate Braga??

Exactly, Deb!
Nina -- 9 Mar 2001, 13:20 GMT

My family has just finished combining forces with a sensible general practitioner to protect a dear elderly aunt from an aggressive cardiologist who wanted to "save her life and give her another 10 years!" - and believe you me, it wasn't easy to insist that the cardie give her space and let her make up her own mind. (She has come home to die as peacefully as possible, at age 83, after a wonderful life and in the care of children who love her. Had she wanted the operation, we'd have backed that too - but the specialist was determined to do his job, and didn't really seem to understand that there WAS another rational choice that the patient could make. Like the Doc on Voyager, he wanted to save her from herself.)

So yup, after that and my experience with the GYN From Hell last fall - I was loaded for bear where the Doctor was concerned, and in total sympathy with Seven. Maybe she will change her mind later on, but d@mmit all - it's her choice.

Who's writing off S7?
Diane -- 9 Mar 2001, 13:25 GMT

Every season is allowed one bad episode. Look at S3, which was the best IMHO, it had the triligoy of terror.

So far, this season has pulled together all the mistakes of the last three years. Biller has done a wonderful job. In fact, Error went against everything Biller has been trying to accomplish, i.e. final growth of the characters. With Error we saw Seven withdraw into her shell. LIke some have said, she has now become the Barclay of Voyager. Unless Biller is setting us up for something in the finale. Maybe Seven hooks up with Barclay. Who knows?

Di

Sorry--rushed through that one.
D'Alaire -- 9 Mar 2001, 13:43 GMT

It's a pithy thing, really--the TV guide Awards, so I wasn't surprised or that upset. But it did make my teeth hurt when I first read it, anyway.

Article at ST.com

Gotta go.

I see Human Error As a Missed Opportunity
david g -- 9 Mar 2001, 14:24 GMT

The firt 1/3 is very fine, meditative, quiet, interesting...

it just falls apart after that.

What is so surprising to me is that Braga usually writes so WELL (and so bloody frequently) for Ryan/Seven.

i had hopes this would be another LINEAGE...but oh well.

but still, this has been a fine season!

david g

You're right about The Flash, Deb. (nim)
Mindy -- 9 Mar 2001, 17:44 GMT

Overall, I've really liked Season 7
Lauren -- 9 Mar 2001, 19:21 GMT

In fact, now that the series is drawing to an end, I've been rethinking all of the critisms that fans--myself included--have leveled against the show over the years. A large number of the complaints, such as uneven character development, lack of attention to details like the number of shuttles destroyed, the habitual use of the reset button, etc. are really all part of the *same* problem: the fact that TPTB prefer to have each episode be able to stand on its own rather than as part of a story arc (or even part of the overall development of the show.)

With VOY's syndication, I have had opportunity to view a lot of the old episodes again, but because of time limitations don't watch them all. Many good episodes had their share of flack from fans due to continuity or other issues surrounding the way it related to earlier episodes, or even earlier Trek series. I find now, that some of the ones of which I was critical at the time I actually like now, when I view them alone and not as part of some ongoing saga.

Of course, I *do* think that VOY should have been more of an ongoing saga. It's very concept--a Voyage home--implies a progression of sorts. Still, I have to admit that, taken individually, VOY has had quite a few good episodes over the years, perhaps as many as the other modern series.

IMHO, Lauren

Re: UPN News
D -- 9 Mar 2001, 19:38 GMT

I don't know about UPN affiliates in other parts of the country but the NY station (WOR) has never been much for emphasising hard news at the begining of their broadcasts, even before they were part of UPN. I basically just ignore their news and stick with the major network affiliates and CNN. Easy when I only watch UPN on Wednesday anyway.

But getting lost and wandering is part of the classic voyage: Re: Odessy & Exodus
Diane -- 9 Mar 2001, 21:02 GMT

Getting sidetracked is part of exploring. The heros still get home, but its taking crocked path or the "road less traveled."

If you look at Homer's Odessy, you can read each story seperately and still enjoy it. In the end, Odessus reaches Ithaca.

Basically, getting blown off course and getting home are the bookends. Having stand alone episodes is haveing a mini-voyage or adventure. Each week the character gets blown off course but then recovers, not matter what the theme, including The Error: Seven gets distracted, the makes a decision of no growth to get her back on course.

Di

Hey, give him a break....
Ivy -- 9 Mar 2001, 22:34 GMT

....he's American, he doesn't know how to ar-ti-cu-late proper English...

No offense, of course...

Re: Hate Braga? Moi?
Deb47 -- 9 Mar 2001, 22:47 GMT

Angela, I found him to be an articulate fellow who had a sense of humor at the convention I went to last year.

To be "honest", I'm just not sophisticated enough in my tastes or understanding to pick on "the producer/director/cinematographer/music stylist."

And, as people have groused about before, I tend to like "anything" Voyager. Even the stuff that the first time around gave me the willies (season 5, to be specific.)

D47

Di, *have* you actually read the Odyssey?
Ivy -- 9 Mar 2001, 22:51 GMT

those stories you refer to (the adventures Odysseus tells when he's at dinner with the Phaiekes (sorry, I only know the Greek name)) make up only 1/3rd of the entire Odyssey. Most of it is about the final part of Odysseus' voyage, and how he (with his son's help) drives away the guys who are courting his wife, Penelope.

17-year-old just *having* to respond to that...
Ivy -- 9 Mar 2001, 23:15 GMT

MY LIFE IS *NOT* TRAGIC!!!

Okay' I have my downs every now and then.. but what do you expect when your friends go on a vacation without you?

But really... I'm a fairly happy person. Good grades, nice friends (I've forgiven them for the above), enough hunky guys to check out when I'm "at the club", so to speak... (yes, I'm allowed to drink.. sometimes it's just great to be Dutch.. ). No complaints here. Really.

Julia joins a VERY small club...
displaced nebbie. -- 10 Mar 2001, 04:28 GMT

Those who don't gag when watching "Human Error".

Egads... missed the Oedipal analogies... Janeway's lucky she/Voyager survived/and Chakotay can still see!

http://startrek.about.com/tvradio/startrek/blhumanerror.htm

(Be kind to me people... I wiped out on the way to work tonight. Like the weatherman just said, it was like driving on vanilla pudding. Sigh. )

D47

But Ivy, there are lots of stand-alone episodes in the Odyssey! Di is right
david g -- 10 Mar 2001, 04:49 GMT

There's Calypso--who keeps Odysseus in amorous captivity

Polyphemos, the Cyclops who nearly eats him (a bad host)

Circe, the sorceress who turns his men into pigs

Nausicaa, the sweet young woman he nearly falls in love with

Then there's the Telemache, about Od's son and his quest for manhood..

There's the Penelope story and how she fends off the suitors

It is ALL about the Voyage home, by any stretch (though the stuff in Ithaka IS pretty powerful)

david g

11th grade english lit was sooo long ago.
displaced nebbie. -- 10 Mar 2001, 04:58 GMT

I've pegged the wrong guy for blindness, haven't I?

Oh well.

Brain cells dying daily.

D47

Mindy, if ever a post should have come with a warning label
Ronit -- 10 Mar 2001, 05:02 GMT

this was it! Definitely not for the faint of heart!

Now, since Braga as a TPTB (and as The Prince of Darkness) of course outranks everyone else, would this pairing be B/C/7 ?

Ronit

but...
Ivy -- 10 Mar 2001, 13:08 GMT

In the "Oedipus", it's the son who sleeps with the mother and then scratches his eyes out. Not the daughter with the father....

sorry, I hadn't read your second post yet... (nim)
Ivy -- 10 Mar 2001, 13:10 GMT

yes, but...
Ivy -- 10 Mar 2001, 13:51 GMT

as I said, those stories make up 1/3rd of the entire book. Have you guys read it? I have. The original. In ancient Greek. The last couple of books are completely about what he does when he's gotten home and, at first, has to keep a low profile. How he hides with one of the servants who are still loyal to him even after 20 years, a shepherd (or pigherd or how you should call it in this case, he herds pigs), how he at first can't tell his son who he really is, how his son welcomes him when he *has* told him, how Odysseus watches his old and faithful hunting dog die, the dog he left when he was only a puppy, how he is recieved at home where he once again can't reveal his true identity... how the maid who nursed him when he was a child recognises him because of a scar, how finally Penelope is told, the way she makes sure it's really him (the bow and the bed), how Odysseus massacres those courting guys, how he and his son have to find a way to stop their families from avenging their lost sons, and how in the end Odysseus can finally lie down next to his wife and "the rose-fingered dawn was held back just a while longer" (not an accurate quote, but anyway).

You all are right... there are lots of what you call "stand-alone" episodes in the Odysseia.... I'm just saying that those make up for a smaller part of the whole than you'd expect... And I for one haven't seen a lot of Voyagers homecoming yet...

PS he doesn't fall in love with Nausikaa, she falls in love with him because of the inuendos Athena makes.... that she has to go to the beach because she has to wash her clothes or she won't "get a man", so to speak...

Well, well, well.
Nina -- 10 Mar 2001, 14:06 GMT

I can't believe I missed that analogy...especially after the writers tossed the quotation at me to make certain I wouldn't.

Trouble is, for me the episode still doesn't work. I can see every point in her analysis - and I still find something so awkward about the whole thing that...what?

That I couldn't get immersed in the story, couldn't suspend my disbelief long enough to see all that. Maybe on a repeat viewing (since I certainly will take a second look, UPN willing).

Oh, Deb, I'm sorry to hear that! Ugh, what a winter!

Well, Ive read the Lattimore translation, and TA'd a class on Ancient Lit
david g -- 10 Mar 2001, 16:04 GMT

Im pretty familiar with the overall plot (I emphasize this becase you keep asking if people have actually read it!)

Hmm...I do know that Nausicaa nearly falls in love with Odysseus...in fact, i believe thee's a lost play by one of the tragedians that deals with her story--tragically.

Perhaps Id have to reread those sections--but from my point of view there was a delicate and tentative suggestion that Od and Nausicaa were mutually attracted to each other--i may be overreading this--in any event, whatwith Athena "sweetening" Od's appearance at every turn, it's no wonder she goes for him!

i find tat whole Nausicaa episode very beautiful. The way Od emerges from the sea, presents himself before the bathing girls, almost naked except for the scant covering he finds for himself...one of the most erotic pasages in the Odyssey.

now if Chak were to present himself that way to Janeway (or the pre-married Paris!)...

david g

Re: Well, well, well. Or what has Julia been smoking?
maggie lurking cat -- 10 Mar 2001, 16:11 GMT

I just couldn't resist adding my lurking two cents over here.

If I recall classical lit correctly, it was Electra who wanted to or did sleep with her father. SO shall we assume Seven really wants to sleep with mama Janeway? I don't think the YAMS would go for that -- they'd want to see Seven with a "babe".

Normally, after a few days, a rewatch, and a lot of opinions/reviews, I am able to enjoy an ep much more. It hasn't worked this time. I find it even more pretentious, awkwardly written, awkwardly acted, and ultimately pointless. If it weren't for the visual appeal of C and 7, and some nice sets/lighting, it would be uttterly devoid of entertainment value.

LOL, David!
Ivy -- 10 Mar 2001, 16:28 GMT

Can you imagine Chuckles holding a torn-off branch in front of him "hos rhusaito peri chroi medea photos": "so that his male genitals were masked, around his body" (this was an accurate quote for a change).

And imagine him grabbing Katie's knees to beg her to give him shelter.....

now *that* would have made for a great "Caretaker"!!

And David, I never meant to imply that either you or anyone else doesn't know zilch about the Odysseia. I just asked that because in some adaptations (and I don't mean translations, like you've read) the homecoming story is more or less ignored and the adventures are very much emphasized. I was wondering if maybe you'd read one of those.

Re: Well, well, well. dark cloud/silver lining
displaced nebbie. -- 10 Mar 2001, 16:37 GMT

Well, at least I was so "chicken" to drive home, that I was here when they called at 3:30 am. Easier to walk downstairs than to drive from home.

Yup... english lit was "too long" ago. Time to revisit the classics.

D47

Naaaah....
Ivy -- 10 Mar 2001, 16:38 GMT

Elektra didn't (want to) sleep with her father (he was dead anyway), she just really admired him and viewed her mother as a threat to the relationship she and her father had. Still, in modern-day psychology, if a girl gets hostile towards her mother and develops an extreme liking for her father (not (necessarily) sexual), it's called an "Elektra-complex".

To that "lurking" cat...
displaced nebbie. -- 10 Mar 2001, 16:44 GMT

Welcome to the "dark side" of the force, maggie!

As for what the "YAMS" want... sigh I'm afraid that is EXACTLY what "some" YAMS want... although probably with B'Elanna rather than Janeway if Eric is to be believed.

Regarding any "homoerotic subtext" in Voyager.... well, lets just say I've visited that thread this season, and will decline revisiting it this month.

Foot in mouth syndrome, don't you know.

D47

Hi, Maggie
Quince -- 10 Mar 2001, 16:48 GMT

I thought I might have missed something re the cortical node burnout, but I guess it was just throwing continuity to the winds. Again.

The Star Trek does "Tom Jones" scene was even sillier the second time around. I'm surprised Braga didn't have Seven say, "Is that a carrot in your pocket or are you just glad to see me?"

Good to see you on the Neb's hot tin roof.

Thank you, Ivy (and hi, Maggie!)
Nina -- 10 Mar 2001, 18:12 GMT

I do get impatient with "authorities" who still tell me that what I really want most in life is an, um, uniquely male attachment...so I tend to take those Freudian archetypes with an entire shaker-load of salt. Even when they're drawn from classical lit (or in the case of Electra, as you point out, misdrawn).

(In a REALLY BAD MOOD. I've shoveled three times, and it's still snowing!)

Gotcha, Ivy! SEVENTH VOYAGE OF SINBAD Fan?
david g -- 10 Mar 2001, 18:13 GMT

It IS amazing, isnt it, the way those "episodes" have been plucked from the text and disseminated--as if they werent thematicaly connected to the story.

one of my favorite such pluckings is in THE SEVENTH VOYAGE OF SINBAD--the Cyclops scene is totally ripped off from the Odyssey!

it works so beautifully, though!

wish i could read the original...

One of the aspects of VOY ive always so loved has been its connection to Homeric odyssey.

david g

hmmm... sorry..
Ivy -- 10 Mar 2001, 20:52 GMT

...but I've never heard of that. Maybe it (whatever it is) hasn't been aired yet in this lousy rainy country. But please do explain because you've made me really curious.

And which part of the original do you want to read? Because maybe I could translate some of it for you if you'd like (or did you mean you wanted to be able to read the original *Greek* text? Because for that you'd really have to learn Greek, ancient Greek. And then still, Homer has a totally own style and vocabulary...).

And yes, I agree with you on the voy/odyssey analogy... it's beautiful. Let's just hope it doesn't end the same way.... (I don't mean the getting home part, I mean the getting home *alone* part... Janeway couldn't stand that )

Re:
maggie lurking cat -- 10 Mar 2001, 22:26 GMT

I couldn't resist an interesting thread, plus the idea of Seven's thing with Chak being "Oedipal" almost drove me to drink , and the weather sucks here too! I watched the tape of last night's Prime Factors and was mucho happier.

Re: Lordy I missed the outright theft from Tom J.
maggie lurking cat -- 10 Mar 2001, 22:35 GMT

Well, the kitty can't be on top of everything, sorta pun intended. Albert Finney and Susannah York (?) did a much better job, no?

Now that I've discovered the icons and the Neb's spell checker, I'll probably be chitter-chattering over here too. Oh my, this is not good -- real life is finding it hard to squeeze through the cracks of all my hobbies.

Re: hi back and yes, thanks for clarifying Ivyhi, Maggie!)
maggie lurking cat -- 10 Mar 2001, 22:48 GMT

LOL Nina. I see (and use) Freud and the Freudians mostly as a joke, but there are some who still believe I guess. Thank heavens most shrinks nowadays are just into good drugs .

Agreed, Ivy...I wish i could read ancient Greek (sigh)
david g -- 11 Mar 2001, 01:01 GMT

as for SINBAD, it's the 1950s version...Ray Harryhausen effects...great fun!

david g

Snort! David, you just reminded me of a prof...
D'Alaire -- 11 Mar 2001, 04:20 GMT

...who did read ancient Greek--and just about any other language you threw at him, half of them, indeed, dead languages. He said he had nothing else to do in his fifteen years in a secluded monastery. (Yes, he was joking. Those wacky, daffy Jesuits. )

Used to drive me nuts, watching him switch into different languages whenever it pleased him to, pick up any book and begin to read aloud as though it was his original tongue. And yes, he could quote the Oddessy if you asked him. He made me feel like my brain was the size of a grain of sand. (snicker)

Aaaaaanyway, I've heard bit and pieces read in the original, thanks to him. Indeed, it makes rather difficult dead languages seem quite appealing.

Oh boy....
Aslar -- 11 Mar 2001, 07:24 GMT

I know I may hate myself... but this episode was really a waste of all the actors and actress time. Not to mention the amount of money it took to make it.

I usually can find at least three things I like about an episode,,, with this only one. The classical music. It was moving. But the rest of the episode was like reading a trash romance novel.

Eric, I have to agree with you on this one.

***cringes and hopes never to see this episode when it comes on in reruns. Plan A is to be shoveling snow or mowing grass when it comes back around***

Aslar

One of those...
Ivy -- 11 Mar 2001, 13:18 GMT

...wackos is right here!

I'm going to study ancient languages at university next year. I'm no Jesuit though.

One of my teachers *is*... he taught us debating; he said that when he was in school, he once had to talk fifteen minutes straight about....

strawberries!

I see I haven't fully mastered the Neb.nt
maggie lurking cat -- 11 Mar 2001, 13:52 GMT

All the best in it, Ivy!
D'Alaire -- 11 Mar 2001, 13:55 GMT

It's difficult, but how worth it!

In a way, I wish I'd done the same with the Greek and Latin--taken the full courses, though my "specialty" was quite different. The furthest I got with "dead" languages was Middle English (with a sidetrack in OE), and it was incredibly enlightening--which is ironic, as English 311 was widely considered a most dreaded course by the Lit majors. But after only a couple classes, I fell totally in love with it, and carried it over to as many courses as I could in the following semesters. Though much easier than the ancient languages, I absolutely love ME to this day, and refuse to read most translations.

You have a Jesuit teacher? Good deal! I graduated at Loyola, so I was surrounded by them. (grin) Great school.

And, since I'm remembering it, I think the funniest track we got stuck on there was the statement of Duane Gish and his Creationist Science and Education--for three weeks! Agggh!

Yeah, I think I was wishing to be in Latin Studies as well as Greek--possibly even Babylonian--by the end of that quarter! LOL!

Re: P.S.
maggie lurking cat -- 11 Mar 2001, 14:06 GMT

I don't think B'ellana is "babe" enough for the YAMS either. I must have missed the homoerotic thread last month or maybe it was discussed when I couldn't access the Neb. Now I can thanks to you and Jules, and like I said below to Quince, now that I've discoved the icons and spellchecker, this could be more than just a lurking addition .

Actually, I wasn't being all that serious about J/7 -- just twisting Julia's review (which I found quite and ususually so for her) to my own silly purposes. Like Nina says sometimes, talk about overanalyzing.

I read somewhere -- What did you dislike Season 5? This is one long p.s. but it's early Sun. morning and I have nothing to distract me.

Now there's an interesting idea!
Sherry -- 11 Mar 2001, 18:23 GMT

Barclay hooking up with Seven, I mean. I can imagine that happening, consdering Seven's duties in Astrometrics and Barclay's work in contacting Voyager. In their own different ways, they have both had problems in interacting with their fellow crew members. Hmmm.....

I was struck by the same thing that you noticed: that Seven was withdrawing from her emotional and social reintegration because of the ill effects. There've been some problems with all the emphasis on that theme--Seven's friendships, Seven's emotional responses, etc., etc. TPTB seem to have decided not to continue in that path, at least immediately. What will happen now?

Sherry

Oh yes, you're from the land of the No Legal Drinking Age.
Janeway216 -- 11 Mar 2001, 18:39 GMT

My OL best friend is from Steenwijk and goes out and gets trashed quite a bit . . . never mind that he's three years below the American legal drinking age. Sigh. You people are so degenerate over there on the Continent.

216
Four years beneath the American legal drinking age; soon to be three years beneath

Re: missed threads.
displaced nebbie. -- 11 Mar 2001, 20:57 GMT

Well, Maggie. The "homoerotic" thread was a discussion that was spawned in the "Imperfection" thread. You can find it in Mr Mac's archive.

The season 5 thread is still on the board, and lets just say its "down there" somewhere in January 2001.

As for season 5, I did get tired... as it went on... of the major depressions that everyone was going through.

At the same time, as the season ground on, and I felt people were coming out of their collective "dark night of the soul", I felt better for the journey.

I figured, it was "bound" to happen, and was glad in one sense that everyone had it in ONE season vs 1/4 having it every year for 4 seasons.

D47

And I of course LIVE with a Classicist who knows a bunch of languages!
david g -- 11 Mar 2001, 22:19 GMT

My partner, Alex, is in Comp Lit and compares Greek and Chinese literature...plus he knows Latin...French..Italian...German....aaarrgghhh!

o well, me kinda know Ingles.

david g

(Ivy feeling *kind* of insulted...)
Ivy -- 12 Mar 2001, 12:13 GMT

Excuse me, but we're *not* degenerate. There's actually more alcohol abuse in America, probably due to the high legal drinking age; people wait and wait and finally when they reach that age they drink themselves into a coma (never mind me exaggerating). The Dutch on the other hand are allowed to drink from the age of 16; because it's normal to drink and not some kind of achievement, that results in rather average drinking habits; sometimes people get used to alcohol and can stand more... after all, if you've never had alcohol before you can easily get drunk on two glasses of wine, but I know people who can drink about 10 beers and still be as sober as they normally are. Whereas in America it's a challenge to drink because you're not allowed to yet and people therefore tend to drink more (the forbidden fruit principle). Besides, it's rather hypocritical in America: you can just buy a pack of beers (or have your older sibling or parent buy it) and have a home party...

And I just wanted to say that I'm not some idiot who gets drunk everyday or even every weekend. I *don't* drink excessively. I don't even *like* beer or wine.

Okay, rant over.

Re: found it
maggie lurking cat -- 12 Mar 2001, 13:16 GMT

And I didn't see any "foot in mouth" disorder but I suppose because I agree with what you said. Frankly, and when I'm being serious (not often), I see almost zip subtext in Voyager, in contrast to DS9.

Re: Didn't see any "FIM?"
Deb47 -- 13 Mar 2001, 01:12 GMT

Just hang around awhile, Maggie... its bound to happen soon!

Well, I've spent all day retelling the tale of how I "tried to kill myself" driving to work Friday night on roads lined with vanilla pudding.

One of my colleagues made me feel MUCH better. He told me he spun out too, in a 4 wheel drive SUV.

Sigh.

I can't wait till spring!

Should be showing up here in.... oh.... about 4 more weeks!

D47

Re: Out here we call them....
maggie lurking cat -- 13 Mar 2001, 12:54 GMT

SOB's Yes, we are an irreverent, uncivil, road-outraged bunch group! And those 4-wheel drivers often end up in the ditch (after splashing plenty of snow and salty slush onto your windshield in the rush to the races), which of course makes the rest of us chuckle. I have personally witnessed drivers roll down their windows and cheer and clap after such a driver ended up in an unnavigable snowbank while passing stalled traffic on the shoulder at high speed. Ahhh, humans...

Spring will come, I know it because the crocus plants are up here, late but up.

Oh, my achin' back.
Nina -- 13 Mar 2001, 21:44 GMT

In the meantime, we of the Maine State Archives are dealing with the consequences of a water filter that cracked sometime Friday night and didn't get discovered until the resulting flood shorted out a fire alarm around noontime Saturday. There's slight damage to some permanent records (all of which are backed up on microfilm), but we're having a heck of a time getting leisure in which to deal with them because the Powers That Be want us out of our entire office floor NOW.

So if I am not around much for the next two months, it'll be because my computer access will be limited as I take up residence in a trailer in the parking lot. No, I'm not kidding; replacing the floors sounds so easy, until you realize that the destroyed tiles have asbestos in them AND in the nonwaterproof glue that's failed (gee, I wonder why? that water was only 3 inches deep in the hallways).

I hope you weren't planning to come to Maine and look up your family tree anytime soon, folks...!

Re: Oy Vey!
Deb47 -- 14 Mar 2001, 00:29 GMT

Well, Nina... lets hope you are out of those trailers come "high summer". Odds are they won't be airconditioned!

D47

Thanks, Deb.
Nina -- 14 Mar 2001, 00:51 GMT

Believe it or not, the important thing really IS that the records are safe. After the employees (who weren't harmed a bit, obviously!), they come first.

Actually I'm told the "trailers" are quite palatial, because they were set up to house Legisative staff during a recent renovation of the State Capitol. They just moved back to their usual digs, and the trailer park (as we OF COURSE like to call it!) is still there - vacant - and we're grabbin' it. But if all my computer use has to go across their server...I'll be lucky if I can maintain my database. Visits to the Neb are probably going to be "at home only" affairs for the duration.

As one archives employee to another, Nina. . .
MEG -- 14 Mar 2001, 02:38 GMT

. . .you have my sincere sympathy. A flood and an asbestos "issue"? Bummer. Do you have to relocate all the records as well as yourselves while they take care of the clean-up?

MEG

Oh, Nina, What A Mess!!!!
Diane -- 14 Mar 2001, 12:50 GMT

As a member of a church that is trying to renovate, I know the "Look, we found asbestos floor tiles after ripping up old carpet problem. --Not a pretty site or thought.

Good luck, girl, and keep us informed.

Di

The records can stay put, MEG.
Nina -- 14 Mar 2001, 14:11 GMT

I knew you'd understand! The stacks took minimal damage - we do have records we are drying out, but it amounts to less than one percent of our holdings.

I kept waking up last night thinking, "I can't work out of that trailer. How am I going to work out of that trailer?" So this morning I girded up my loins, psychologically speaking, and collared our State Archivist (my immediate boss) first thing. I'll be given "house room" (that's about all we can call it!) in Processing or Receiving, which means no windows and living by stacks rules for the next two months - but I'll have a direct connection to my own server, and I'll be with Archives Services staff.

I feel better now. MUCH.

That's great, Nina.
MEG -- 14 Mar 2001, 16:12 GMT

At least you avoided the really heavy lifting! And if most of the records can be salvaged with some drying out, then it's not as bad as it could be. I like my disasters on the "well, this is a real pain" end of the scale. Beats the heck out of the alternative.

At least it sounds like you don't have any asbestos contamination in the records themselves. I once worked at a place which had a facility that got hit by a tornado. It was a little tornado, as those things go, but the buildings were old and insulated with asbestos. When the tornado ripped the roofs off, everything in the buildings not only got wet but also got covered with asbestos fibers. That was one messy clean-up!

Those buildings were metal. Sort of like trailers.

MEG (from a windowless but reasonably solid office.)

HUMAN ERROR's Big Unanswered (Unasked?!) Question
david g -- 10 Mar 2001, 21:09 GMT

For Seven, is Chak just an Everycuteguy? A lover stand-in? Or is she TRULY drawn to him?

Were she truly drawn to Chak--would it make a difference to him? Is HE drawn to her?

hmmm

david g

Re: HUMAN ERROR's Big Unanswered (Unasked?!) Question
Caillan -- 10 Mar 2001, 21:20 GMT

Definitely just a "Ken Doll" in the context of the episode. "He seemed like an appropriate choice" says Seven. In other words, he was *there*. But the fact that Seven actually went back to the holodeck to break up shows how emotionally attached she had become. I don't think it was true love, rather an addiction to emotional involvement. Seven has been so isolated all these years, and now she must go through the motions as if it was real life. Unlike Janeway in "Fair Haven," who simply left Michael O'Sullivan hanging: because she knew, deep down, it wasn't real. For Seven, however, as it was her first taste of reality, the lines were somewhat blurred.

Actually, david, I thought the Doc did ask, and was answered.
Deb47 -- 10 Mar 2001, 23:14 GMT

In fact, I thought it was quite "telling" that Seven did NOT pick Axum as her hololover.

It would have been (for her) "too icky", to borrow our fellow poster's turn of phrase.

She's "had" the real thing with him recently, and is remembering their years together. A "fake" Axum would have been too "pale" in comparison.

(I'll throw out my favorite Linus/Peanuts line here... "Would you throw a starving dog a rubber bone?")

What she wants now, isn't so much a holoescape, like Barclay and (sigh) my dear Janeway...

What she wants is "practice". How does she go about this flirting/dating/making out thing?

Just like she was "practicing" how to interact with the babyshower scenario.

It didn't give her enough confidence to GO to the babyshower, and yet it helped push her to "go" to B'Elanna... which in my perverse imagination was her goal all the time. Not to be "the life of the party" as the EMH schooled her in "Someone to watch over me"... but to make personal connections with valued crewmates.

As for "picking" Chakotay, I don't think she was necessarily "drawn" to him beyond the simple fact he WAS an obvious choice.

Not just because he has cute dimples (my waterloo), but as has been pointed out elsewhere, he's "logical". Come on... as Janeway herself said in "Shattered"... "A soldier AND a philosopher... your starfleet dossier doesn't do you justice." He's always been Janeway's and Voyager's "rock" in a storm, he's counseled Seven during difficult circumstances, they've been on many away missions together and he's always treated her with respect. (Despite what Tom's pool shark said in "The Cloud"! )

He was logical... and he was "safe because quite frankly he WAS a hologram!

Unfortunately... Seven didn't know something about "holograms".

When you program them "too well", when they act "too much" like the "real thing"... its easy to let fantasy and reality blurr.

Look at Geordie and Dr Leah Brahms. Look at the difference between her first appearance, and how she was when Geordie had the computer incorporate Starfleet's psych profiles etc into the program.

Geordie's heart was a flipping sitting duck.

As was poor hapless Harry's, in Alter Ego. Look, Harry WAS a child of the holodecks. I'm sure he had saved numerous "slave girls from planet X" even before Tom came along. ANd yet... he fell for (can't recall the blonde's name) like a starship going into an event horizon.

Why?

Because she wasn't a hologram. She was "real", he just didn't know it.

Even Tuvok didn't know it, although he suspected "something" when he was interacting with the same hologram.

Even our resident TNG Lothario... the masterful Riker himself... fell for a hologram that had been superenhanced by the Binars... What was it Riker said, at the end after searching the database for her... there was no spark in the holograms he found after the Binars left.

Janeway, Gawd love her, also noticed multiple "problems" with her hololover, and "cheated" by continually reprogramming him to try to bring out that spark. I still maintain, that the "end" was written for that "relationship" once she went to "say goodbye" to Mike at the end of FH, and told the computer to deny her access to his programming. She could no longer "correct" her holopartner's lack of spark.

Would she still play in FH? Sure, just like Tom still plays with Lord Chaotica... but now he would "just" be a hologram again.

But Seven, not wise in the world of holofantasies and pitfalls, picked the most logically WRONG man for her "practice".

She picked a man the Voyager computer was "intimately" aware of, a being that had interacted time and again with the holodeck, and with the crew, and so a "character" that the computer could "faithfully" render... "spark" and all.

And like a flipping moth, Seven was drawn to that spark and so was doomed.

Axum WOULD have been safer... because he WOULD have been a "pale" imitation of reality.

Poor Seven.

The only question I have... is now that the holodeck has been turned off... will Seven's feeling for the HoloChakotay be turned off too?

Inquiring minds, want to know.

D47

Re: HUMAN ERROR's Big Unanswered (Unasked?!) Question(spoiler)
CAM -- 11 Mar 2001, 21:54 GMT

Isn't it possible that this will be answered in the next C/7 show? (Whatever the name is} Otherwise I can't imagine why they would repeat the pairing.

CAM