The Coffee Nebula Board is for the discussion of Star Trek: Voyager and other sci-fi/cult shows. This is its Archive of episode discussions, top ten lists, fan fiction, and other miscellaneous musings.
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"Who would have thought that this eclectic group of voyagers could actually become a family. Starfleet, Maquis, Klingon, Talaxian, hologram, Borg... even Mr Paris." |
Workforce: 2Re: WORKFORCE, PART II is even better than Part One I liked many aspects of this episode... Chak as Janeway's spirit guide--and her instinctive trust of him--the genuine highlight for me. interesting how closely their scenes resemble those in SHATTERED... i also really believed in the Janeway-Jaffen relatioship...I felt really touched by it in the end. I also liked that HARRY got to give real command of the ship by the end--rightly putting powertripDoc in his place. This was a fine episode...the B'Ellana stuff on VOY wth Neelix leading her around was very reminscent of the also RD-directed RIDDLES... much as i love seeing these characters interact, and get air time, i wasnt esp wowed by what the script came up w/for them. i cant say, in the end, that im esp wowed by WORKFORCE, either, though it was a VERY well made ep...it just lacked a real excitement for me. i cant imagine returning to it terribly often. still, this was an honorable episode of VOY. david g Surprise! A two-parter that finishes much stronger than it starts. Frankly, I was expecting this show is disappoint. But they managed to avoid all the dreaded cliches like having Seven or Tuvok or Chakotay or Janeway be mostly responsible for rescuing everyone. I liked the fact that none of the brainwashed regained their memories through sheer force of personality a la Kirk. I feared that outcome for either Seven or Janeway. An added bonus was Chakotay getting caught and brainwashed. I was also pleased to see that Joffen wasn't portrayed as a coward or a selfish cad. The whole kidnapping scheme only failed because several people worked together in small ways and pooled their knowledge and skills. Including Joffen and the local detective. And almost the young doctor. (The fact that he probably gave up fighting made the show even better for me.) This kind of more realistic story without the usual hero turn is something we haven't seen on Voyager for quite a while. While Janeway fans may love seeing the bigger-than-life hero that Braga wrote her as in his big two-parters, *I* prefer the more human Janeway. I'll bet that many fans will be disappointed by such a low-key episode. This wasn't the big FX spectacle we've gotten used to with Braga's two-parters. Personally, I really liked it. The small moments with Janeway and B'Elanna coming to terms with who they were were the best part. Very tender scene between Tom and B'Elanna in the end. Excellent show for Mulgrew, Dawson, and Beltran. (See, Mindy, Beltran *can* act.) Only one sour note. Doctor Ralph Malph. Most actors who have been typecast because of their early roles deserve better. This guy should retire. Point for point, plus some, I agree--Excellent! And, personally speaking, of course (grin), reading the script ahead of time didn't spoil a moment of it. It was so thrilling seeing it all come to life, with the acting, the sights and direction (GUSH! Needless to say, WFII was just fabulous, from the J&C, to B'Elanna rediscovering her life and Seven, Tom and Janeway realizing theirs, to the AOTW. I really liked Jaffen, too... Everything just clicked for me, from pickup to closure[s], all the big and little issues, the action and the quiet, the bits between all the characters...Just wonderful. Favorite parts: Everything that included B'Elanna--of course, but it was touching to see her in the beginning, hear her voice, almost timid, and then the pancakes--and reading Tom's logs (oh, I can hear fanficsters' wheels a-turnin'--as though that one hasn't been written a hundred times already. Her scene at the end with Tom was lovely, funny and adorable--a perfect moment for them both. When she leaned her head on his shoulder and they both looked forward again...Well, let's just say when the vidcap comes out for that one, it'll be my new wallpapers. Janeway--Janeway, Janeway. sigh! When Chakotay was talking to Voyager, and he looked at her and said he had the captain there, my heart actually thumped for the look on her face. Perfect again. I really liked Jaffen--and sighed hard when the tears rolled out of Kathryn's eyes with their goodbye hug. They really made their feelings known and real, there. Captain on the bridge: Wow. KM just stole every moment of that one. So many things inside her just then, and yet the captain is back. Wow. BTW, did anyone else notice that very strange, "Aye, sir?" come from--Tom??? Mind control, indeed! Chakotay rises again when called upon and kicks some AOTW hiney. It's always great to see...even if they did put him to sleep through most of the last quarter. Ah well. What we got was a lot--and good stuff, indeed. Seven was more than an appropriate choice for the one who'd needle around and get things moving. It's totally in character--and better, it was excellently done, the way the others were bought together with her and the investigator's help. (Great to know Tuvok's little "meld" wasn't forgotten. History almost had me think it might be.) I also happened to like her outfit this time. (grin) Nits: Barely, but I thought the exposure of the bad doc (both times, actually) was a little Scooby Doo, though I didn't really mind too much. I couldn't think of a better way to do it offhand--and for that matter, it wasn't much of a stretch to reveal. It didn't need that much cleverness. I am glad he didn't buck and run or turn loony. His career ended well enough--offscreen while Kathryn and Jaffen were doing the dirtywork. I also think the ECH vs. Ensign thing--though much better done in Part II--was a little tiring, and distracting. I'm glad it wasn't much of a focus on the Voyager side. Or maybe I was tuning it out. (smirk) Otherwise, an excellent episode--almost everything I could have hoped for with a part two, and together with Part One is likely going to end up being among my favorite Voyager eps. I can't wait to see them together without interruption. It might have been "low key" for a 2-parter, but I'll have to say it's a d@mn sight more consistent and well [evenly] paced than probably any other 2-parter I've seen. That's all the babble I can manage for now. Except... Next Week: Especially knowing what spoilers I do about next week, I am more convinced than ever that UPN must be destroyed. Stupid, stupid, stupid. --Not the ep, but that promo (and all the insipid "bits" during Workforce's commercial breaks) is now on the top of my list as the downright most annoying. Better I watch Workforce over again in full, and smile again as I did tonight. Kudos to TPTB--and RD, who directed even herself quite wonderfully. (GUSH!) WORKFORCE, PART II How shocking! They managed to keep it together! The story didn't plunge into the typical last minute Voyager rescue and interest was kept. I liked it. Pretty much what i said last time stands however i must say, i really hate how Voyager uses different directors! Roxanne is turing into a good TV director however, she is obviously NOT the same director from last week. But i have to say i miss the spooky/dreamlike way part 1 was done in. The only problems i had was the annoying space logic impaired fights! Oh no! Phasors can't penatrate shields so instead of fireing a Photon Torpedo INTO the ship we will expload it outside between two ships! Good Grief, the shockwaves would have dispersed off their frelling shields if they were that powerful! Now wireing the escape pods to blow up was a cool dirty trick and it would have worked....if they had waited until the pods were INSIDE! Finaly i thought Janeway's speech at the end was entirely bogus. 1) Hubby wouldn't be Starfleet do she would NOT be "fraternizing" with the crew. 2) Starfleet allows families to serve together. But all that aside Workforce IS a decent two parter and i can forgive it minor problems becuase it is enjoyable. Eric WF, PART II - wanna guess whether PTB will follow up ...on the crews' re-integration into their "normal" lives on Voyager? Don't think too hard. (I just love how the Doc can magically return everyone to their normal conditions when the plot calls for it) If this had happened to the DS9 crew we would've seen follow up during the proceeding eps on the staffs' subtle return to business as usual. But since this is Voyager, things will indeed be "busness as usual" next week when everyone will no doubt be back to their normal selves as though the events of the past two weeks never happened. Of course, I'm hoping that I'm wrong. C'mon PTB, surprise me for once. Oh, and on the young doctor... ...And almost the young doctor. (The fact that he probably gave up fighting made the show even better for me.) I'm not sure if you noticed or not, but he ended up the "the syndrome," too. He was on the back table when Seven and the investigator came into the lab and told the bad doc to disconnect the devices. Another thing I wanted to bring up, though, was the missing status of Tuvok in the second part. I'm starting to think that TR must have had an outside engagement or something, as his absence, aside from Seven's investigation, really was noticeable. It's not really a nit, as the show worked just fine once his influence was planted in part one, but just something I thought about more in retrospect. BTW, I read you reviw again, Terry, and really agree once again, especially concerning how glad I also am that it wasn't over the top hero tactics that freed them, and that I love that human version Janeway very much, too. Ahhh, I need to make time to watch this one over again sooner rather than later. Good point, Eric. Jaffen was in the exact situation we talked about last week. Or he could have been. An outsider hired on (like a contractor) to travel with them and even work but not an official member of the crew or of Starfleet. Janeway could have had a relationship with someone like that. I thought she was making an excuse, Eric. (YMMV) The Spoiler Junkie of the Western World (me!) was nevertheless delighted when "the Chakotay brush-off" Janeway gave to Jaffen turned out to be just her standard little "no fraternization" line (while she hugged him and cried, yet; boy, does THAT prove that spoilers can be accurate and still mislead!). She believes she can't lead properly under these conditions, the "small ship isolated far from home," and be distracted from her job by an intimate relationship with someone on board. She also believes that it would be unwise because if it goes sour, how is she going to solve the problem? Transferring her partner to another captain's ship isn't exactly an option...nor could she suddenly decide to leave poor Jaffen behind if they couldn't make it work, not after she'd carried him on board Voyager until he was impossibly far from anywhere he might think about as home. (Even though he came to Quarra to work, from somewhere else, I'm pretty sure he's native to that part of space.) Is she absolutely right about all that? Maybe so, maybe not, but SHE believes it. It's an established part of her character. And although she had developed strong and (to my agreeable surprise, since he didn't turn out to be a rat) genuine feelings for Jaffen, that didn't mean she was going to put her strongly held beliefs aside over a 3-weeks-or-less-old romance. (We finally got THAT established, too, thank goodness.) Sometimes you make a choice that hurts, but you know it's the right one. I got that feeling watching KM play the last scene. But like I said, YMMV...:-) Quickly adding to what I replied to Eric on a particular point I, too, loved the instinctive trust Janeway felt toward Chakotay. Seven is so beautiful when she's not wearing that blasted catsuit! Why can't TPTB see that? I liked realizing that Jaffen wasn't so much controlling as lonely, and terrified of losing the love he'd only just found. He turned out okay. Refreshing. I believed in P/T for the first time since pre-"Drive." I loved it that just about everybody played a vital part in the rescue. GO, HARRY!!! Gotta work now. I really, really enjoyed this one. Right down to being truly surprised that the "hero" turned out to be the criminal investigator (make that read "civil servant" Nina, you hit the nail right on the head for me. I got that impresion, too, and have actually believed that about Janeway's mindset before. but the way you just explained it--all of it--is perfect. Whew! Thank you! Does celibacy make her a better leader? Are celibate priests more courageous or effective leaders than married ones? I'm guessing they believe so (I can't think of another good reason for it.) Janeway said once to Chak (Does anybody remember where?) "I'm not just the captain of a ship, I'm the leader of a community." That apparently doesn't include relationships at all which is a bogus assumption (Thanks for the help on that one Eric) IMHO. I didn't say I agreed with her, suz. I said that is what SHE believes. Agree with everything you said, Terry... ...except for your wiscrack about Beltran.;-) I find him adequate for the most part. Oh, well, guess the guy just doesn't float my boat. But did you see his interview on UPN in ther VOYAGER close-up??? I did LOVE! what he said, i.e., that TPTB should just blow up the whole ship and kill off everyone just as they are entering Earth's solar system. It was really funny! (Jeri Ryan said something along the same lines). But don't give up hope, Terry. I am really looking forward to next week's. Perhaps at last, Beltran will do it for me as I see him in real action. One question though...wasn't young Dr. Kildare being given "the treatment" because he hadn't agreed with Dr. Malph and was threatening the project? That's how I read it. I also thought that Janeway's last "Not for a second" could have been a little more poignant, but that's just in the delivery. A+, that's for sure! Mindy I feel exactly the same way. And Neexlix, too! And you're right, when Harry said "Captain on the bridge!", I felt a little emotional, too. She was just so powerful in that scene! And it was nice to see Harry take command. But I loved the Doctor and Harry scenes. Mindy Actually, I hope there's NO follow-up to this one, Q I think he relearning of their own identities stuff is terribly difficult--even tedious-stuff to bring off on the screen, and wisely best left to our own imaginations... Theyve dne it, anyway, w/Riddles, and that was enough for me. unfortuantely, i didnt find the B'Elanna and Neelix stuff here terribly interesting. david g Nina, On Janeway's "celibacy" Nina, i thought you were totally on-target about your description of what goes on for Janeway re: her sex life. The unique position of VOY makes it excruciatingly difficult for Janeway to pursue a relationship w/a member of her crew...were they in the AQ, then it would make no sense at all for her to be alone UNLESS that's how she prefers it... come to think of it, i think Janeway has grown to prefer her aloneness....in the AQ, God willing she gets there, she'll have to RElearn being w/someone. david g I would have been SHOCKED if Jaffen had stayed on board! Allowing Janeway to have a normal relationship??? Hiring and paying another cast member with less than half-a-season to go?? Expecting our VOYAGER PTB to be so bold????? Are you all nuts???? What have you been collectively smoking???? And can I have some???? BTW, Nina, what is YMMV? Mindy Labor of Love-- and, is Biller bringing closure to the show after all? I only managed to see the last few minutes. I'm having it taped at home which means I wouldn't be able to see it for a few weeks, so I couldn't resist. Of course I didn't see enough to really make a good judgement of it, but when has that ever stopped me? The episode seemed very cool! I liked the conclusion. It just played well on all fronts and Dawson as director seemed VERY impressive. Maybe the best cast direction effort. The other thing that really impressed me about this show was how it dealt with storylines that have series wide implications for Voyager. There may not be an arc to end off the show, but Biller's promise of more interconnectivity is finally coming into fruition, at least IMO. Janeway: The Janeway romantic arc is now complete. For the past few years, Mulgrew and many fans have wanted to see Janeway get a love interest. Now, with "Counterpoint", "Fair Haven" and "Workforce" done and when you additionally consider her relationship with Mark, I think we have a complete understanding of Janeway as a romantic being. She wants to love, she feels love, but she lives by a code of conduct that prevents her from having a love affair, basically no matter who the partner is. There's a tragedy in that that was well played. I would say that for a Captain who just two years ago we knew little about the romantic side of, we have a better understanding now than perhaps any of the other series captains. Doctor and Kim: In my opinion, Chakotay left Kim in charge, Kim SHOULD have been in charge and the Doctor should not have protested last week, but the way I saw it play out at the end of this week was nice in showing that in the conflict between the two and in the battleground of egos in their aspirations for the same post, at least some compromise and common ground can be found. Will it last? Probably not-- the Doctor seems like he's only going to get more jerky in weeks to come, but this seems like it could resonate a bit longer between them. There were some nice parallels to the crew's real home and Quarren as home, with more episodes where the meaning of "home" is addressed, I will not feel that the show's end will be abrupt. The last bits of WORKFORCE II that I saw made me feel more psychologically prepared for the end of the series. Anyway, of what I saw, there were good scenes all around. Now I look forward to seeing the whole thing! Jason That's how I read it That was the impression I got about the young doctor: he was a threat to the program, so Dr. Malph wanted to shut him up/"clear" the challenge out of his mind as quickly as possible. Your Mileage May Vary. NIM LOL, Mindy! (nim) Now if we could just get PTB to smoke that stuff! Ronit Okay, Terry, which one was Dr. Ralph Malph? The EMH or ECH? or the older MD that was the baddy? I did enjoy this episode. It was an excellent use of 7 as well as the rest of the crew. All except the doc. I'm tired of his whinning ways, and you don't appreciate me for what I am. It's old! Roxanne Never mind The right choice I was impressed by Janeway's last scene, too, and the way her relationship with Jaffen wound up. During Part I, I was afraid that she would forget all about that romance when she recovered her normal memory. I was glad to see that she kept her feelings for Jaffen instead. Breaking off with him was a painful decision, but you're right: it fits with the feelings that Janeway has shown for years, especially her sense that as a captain, she somehow has to put that duty above all her other feelings and needs. My interpretation (for what it's worth) I think it's like saying "This is my interpretation; you may not see it the same way." I understand. It's what TPTB think will work best. Maybe they're right and maybe it's just a screaming double standard. I wish I knew. Hmm. I think that's my cue to update the Help page. I can't remember if YMMV was in there on the old board, but I guess it ought to be. Jules The "Real" WORKFORCE Would Have Been Better? (SPOILERS) Just read Bryan Fuller's chat at FANDOM.COM about his original idea for WORKFORCE... involving the Kobali from ASHES TO ASHES... you know what? i think Fuller's original idea was great! full of tension and intrigue--and i love the Kobali. i think Braga wouldve gone for t--but Biller's too respectable to go for a story taht, well, dangerous... this is NOT a diss against Biller, who has provided us with a generally honorable and movingly evenhanded season. but i DO miss the quirky, dangerous edginess of seasons past... if NOT the terrible losses it incurred. david g That having been said, the most touching moment in WORKFORCE for me was the moment Janeway was abruptly beamed to Voyager, and Jaffen can only put his hands into the crackling white light of the transporter beam. really lovely, as was their goodbye scene...that was so well handled and it really illuminated Janeway for me. david g "Watch... and LEARN." Sigh. Gwad how I love Voyager.
When I got to work today, one of my staffers told me they nearly called me at 10 pm last night to howl over the episode. I told her "good thing" she didn't, as she'd have run into a busy signal since someone else was doing exactly that! Last time that happened was during "Dark Frontier".
What a great show last night! Have I mentioned lately, that I "love" Seven? Yup, tis true, though I hesitate to mention it for fear of tomatoes and bric a brac being tossed my way. Thank-you PTB for providing her not only with an outfit that was dazzling in its understated way... but by also providing a "story"line that allows her to shine based on her HUMAN qualities and not her Borg efficiencies. Curiosity. Why was Tuvok acting as he was? Who was he? What was he doing? Why was he investigating so many others in the plant? Thank-you for allowing her "underlying" bossy personality follow her to Quarra, and using it to challenge not only the shift supervisor, but also the chief investigator and the young Doctor. Thank-you for allowing her to seek out help from many quarters, and for letting her trust whatever instinct it was that pushed her after Tuvok. Sigh. The "girl" did good last night! Speaking of love... lord have mercy but TPTB have done "right" by the combination of Neelix and B'Elanna this year, haven't they? Although I've often teased how the man is "obviously" in love with Janeway... the only reason I don't "mention" his obvious love for B'Elanna is because he's so "proper/polite" about it. "He" knows she's "taken"... and unlike the EMH he has the good graces to not only step aside, but to encourage her. Repeatedly. Sigh. The only thing "I" might have done differently (If I was a PTB) would have been to change the photo shown from the "honeymoon" to "the wedding". Yeah, it would have been a flagrant bone to the P/T crowd, but they could have used a shot from "Course Oblivion" and quieted the rancor caused by not repeating the wedding scene this year. Loved the pancakes, loved the timetravel, loved the fact that in each "remember" scene... Tom was paramount to the process. I KNOW I've mentioned my feelings for B'Elanna... and will defer to D'A in this regard. Suffice it to say, "sigh"... why does this have to be the last year? Now... I agree with those who are getting tired of the Doc's "the grass is greener on the other side of the fence" attitude... and I hope that rather than whetting his appetite for more, we've satiated it slightly. I, on the other hand, really liked the fact that Harry quickly learned to "use" the database that was the ECH's memory... but when the database could not "recall" anything useful... it was the Ensign's experience AND creativity that allowed him to "save the day". (Loved that little "rejoiner"... "Watch and Learn"... Heh, heh, heh... He who laughs last...Harry. Poor Tom didn't get to "jump into a firefight/mix it up" with the baddies... and yet... look how often he was referred to. Look where they went to conspire against the state/plant. Look who was lieing through his teeth when the authorities came looking.
And look who got kissed and socked by the same woman in their last scene.
And frankly... I don't care HOW OFTEN I've mentioned my regard for Janeway AND Chakotay... its still not enough! Never enough! Earlier this week, I joined "spoiler free" Jason in speculating what would happen this week. Chakotay would be injuried... (I guessed)... and you know how Janeway CAN'T resist helping an injured man/ship! Well... imagine my delight when the teaser looked like it was going just like my fantasy... and my "yowl" when he "sent her" back to Jaffen before the theme song rolled! Hey! That wasn't in my fantasy! Ahh.... but then... what did I say about "delayed gratification"? Yum, Yum! When she went back to her room the next day... I knew there was blood on the towel even before she smelled it. "Lights"....
Yikes! What wasn't there to love about their scenes together? The injured man, knowing her weakness... setting down his gun and offering to be turned over to the police... throwing himself completely at her mercy... Slamdunk, Chakotay! Every J/C bone in my body thrilled in the next scene when she was working on his arm... and they were talking about their lives. Oh heavens, and later when he was talking to Harry, "In fact, I'm with Captain Janeway right now." "Zing!" We won't even MENTION what was going through MY mind when she realized he and she were "of the same species"... and he told her they were "more than that... we're friends". Medic! Sigh. Now... at the risk of being drummed out of the J/C fold... I errr I... Gosh this is hard! I loved J/J! When he was protecting her/she was draped over his back... and he said... "I hope you didn't think I abandoned you"... and she cooed... "Not for a minute." My everloving J/C heart acquiesced and granted these two extraordinary dispensation to love as much and as long as TPTB would let them! And when she dematerialized out from under his very fingers... I screamed "nooooooo"! Don't! Don't let her forget him!
And they didn't.
I felt even MORE for her, as she watched him cross the floor to stand before her in that final scene... than I did when she and Chakotay said their "silent" resolutions to each other before beaming back on Voyager 5 years ago. I didn't "cry" when she did... but I felt every tear she shed! And I thank... TPTB, who could let her admit that, not just to Jaffen, and to herself... but also to Chakotay later that day. What a freaking wonderful story. An ensemble cast, great continuity, great "wardrobe", great tension, and all those "little" things people "missed" in other shows. Alien writing that LOOKED alien... Male doctors "dissing" other male doctors, and at least ONE female doc to boot... A doctor actually figuring out "what" was going on... and not succumbing to the "megalomania" syndrome... but rather becoming yet another victim of the conspiracy. Not a single nanoprobe to be seen all night... although a nice reminder of the Borg cube that Tuvok undoubtably stirred up... The Ship "hiding" in an asteroid's crater... And a guest star... who looks pretty darn good when he's not lit in half light all the time! Sigh. Gawd, how I love Voyager! D47 I much prefer the Workforce we got. The Kobali were good for that one ep--and that situation. I'd have very likely despised them killing off the crew like that. It's the reason I almost stopped watching Voyager in S5, and I'm gratified they didn't go back to that "Hey, let's kill them off! What a neat dramatic idea!" mindset. "Safe" in this case was a very, very good thing. IMO. It was a fabulous character-driven episode, and I wouldn't even trade Doc's annoying streak for a moment. Sorry, but I have a thing about PTB axing characters I happen to love in any way, shape or form (my only exception being Deadlock--even if having baby Naomi die was quite disturbing). Sure, there'd have been a "happy" ending, but the route there would not have been satisfying to me. thhhipt. WORKFORCE, PART II What a nice change - a 2 parter that didn't have a lot of exploding ships or feel it needed almost constant action. I liked the fact that the Quarens as a whole weren't bad, just a group of them who saw a way to profit from the labor shortage. And the good guys benefited from solving the conspiracy (Jaffen got promoted, and the young doctor and investigair probably did too). Other likes: No Reset Button - for once the crew remembered what happened to them. Torres figuring a way to communicate with Chakotay. And I think she took command before the fight messed up systems and she had to go into engineer mode; she was standing behind Harry who was at the helm when they were contacted by Janeway, then when the ship was fired on she seemed to sit in the command chair (at least there was a yellow sleeve there). Janeway pausing a moment before leaving the turbolift to collect herself before stepping onto the bridge at the end. Re: That having been said, the most touching moment in WORKFORCE for me I couldn't agree more David, the look on Jaffens face as she disappeared was so poignant, so touching, my ehart just broke for him. I was afraid that that was going to be their farewell, how sad would that have been? I was glad they got the chance to say goodbye more properly. And just as an aside I don't for a moment believe that janeway doesn't regret Chakotay coming for her 'even for a second'. I'm thinking there were a few seconds realizing that she was dumped by her fiance and that her life is a little lonely on Voyager when seh was regretting not having that happy illusion she was living. Andrea ...when it treats "continuity" like a four-letter-word. Just a correction. B'Elanna didn't sat in the command chair during that battle scene at the end. She sat at her usual place at the Engineering console. "Workforce" was okay as a whole. Well now. There wasn't any Reset Button, but Janeway still gets no man at the end. After what I consider a strong start in Part 1 last week, I can't see Part 2 as strong. The way I see it, Part 2 is okay, but not great. Otherwords, the ending just didn't feel like it has potential to leave me feeling it was a great episode and two-parter. "Unimatrix Zero" and "Flesh and Blood" are better two-parters than "Workforce". I did enjoyed several moments in the episode, but most of the time, I was bored - like during the Janeway/Jaffen moments (except the last scene on Voyager), Don Most's scenes, and Seven's investigation and plan. The scenes I do like? 1) Harry/Doc scenes on Voyager. I agree with Harry that Doc is just following his ECH subroutine program, so Doc isn't really that great a CO as he keeps bragging to be. Think about it, I like Doc to stay being Doc. With the ECH subroutine, he's even now able to fly the ship, when in "Message in a Bottle", he couldn't. I don't mind the ECH being used once in awhile, but only in emergencies like what happened in "Workforce". Leave the real commanding to those who are in command. Nevertheless, that brief moment at the end where Kim clapped Doc on the back was a nice moment. 2) Janeway/Chakotay scene in Janeway's apartment. That was a good moment that Chakotay gets through Janeway that she is more than what she seems. She trusts Chakotay eventhough, to her, she hasn't met him. To bad Jaffen is a sticker to turn Chakotay in. Meany. 3) Janeway/Jaffen scene on Voyager. It was a nice bitter sweet moment which I like. It shows that she and the crew will keep their memories. I like that she was willing to offer Jaffen a place in the crew, but she, once again, said it's unappropriate for a captain to have a romantic relationship with a member of the crew. I see that as a cheat, as far as I'm concern. This scene no doubt was intentional by TPTB to say to shippers - "Janeway will not ever *ever* get it on with Chakotay, Seven, or any other member of her crew." As a shipper, I have to say, "What hogwash!" 4)The P/T scene on Voyager. It was good for a laugh over Torres' brief mock irritation that Tom, despite being brainwashed, flirted with other women at the Quarren tavern/bar. Cute. The only 'Okay' scenes were Neelix and Torres on Voyager. Nothing I found to catch me here but nothing to be bored so much over. As for the directing, Dawson did okay, but not as good as Allen Kroeker in Part 1. This once again shows me that having separate directors directing each part is stupid. It's hard not to miss the difference between the parts - the feel, the camera angles, and especially the acting of the cast. I can't see why TPTB can't have the same director for both parts of a two-parter. Unless I'm mistaken, "Caretaker" was the only two-parter (tele-movie) that was directed by one person - Kolbe. The rest were directed by separate directors, making one part different than the other. After seeing "WF II", I'm still sticking to Robbie McNeill as the best director out of the cast. There are two things I don't like - 1) The Quarren government wasn't even able to see the conspiracy done by its own military. I find it hard to swallow that, for logically, Voyager isn't the first 'victim', so why weren't there any others asking the same questions to the government about their missing people? Also the entire 'conspiracy' answer feels flat, given that Part 1 makes it feels that the government was fully behind the brainwashing concept to get more workers. It would have been cool to find the crew battling the government to get their people back. The ending was just another convient and typical Trek ending. 2) I know this is not a real big deal to most, but I can't help but feel that Janeway really did regret Chakotay for pulling her back to her 'real life'. She said she had no regrets, but her facial expression when she said that to Chakotay wasn't convincing. I know she is still mourning for her so-called lost love (which I found okay, but not convincing a romance for Janeway), but it would have been a better emotional scene for her to be bit more honest to say that she has some regrets and will miss the life made on Quarren but know that's not really her. It would have fitted her facial expression better. So overall, Part 2 is not a great episode, making "Workforce", as a whole, not a great two-parter as I said before. Part 2 has moments that I found more boring than Part 1, and the way they wrapped up things was just not something to make me feel it's a good two-parter. Okay, but not good, or great as most claim it to be. Part 1 was given a 8/10. I give Part 2 a 6/10 rating, giving "Workforce" a final 7/10 rating. Okay, but not great in my book. I think Chakotay was turned in by both Jaffen and Janeway. He persuaded her that the guy was Chak-Full-O-Nuts. I believe that Kolbe was shot both halves of Basics. I seem to remember that it was only due to a fortuitous scheduling problem. They actually shot Part II three or four weeks after Part I (with Sacred Ground and others in between). So Kolbe was able to direct both. Jason could probably answer why two-parters use two directors. I think that the answer must lie in director needing either time for pre- or post-production. Which overlaps in a tight schedule with shooting for two other episodes. Caretaker was shot together, not as two parts. More time was taken to shoot the pilot. They even came back months later and reshot all of Janeway's scenes when they changed her hairstyle to the bun. I don't believe that the conspiracy was a military one. Certainly, the guys with the ships seemed like stooges, not ringleaders. And I thought them private muscle, not military, although I may be wrong. I do have to agree wholeheartedly with you on one issue. Janeway's "not for a second" fell flat after what had preceded it. And yet Mulgrew seemed to be trying to sell it like Janeway meant it. More ambiguity or a more complex explanation could have been much better. Like "only for a second." Or "Yes, but ..." Scheduling Trek's use of directors on two-parters is generally very inconsistent. It has a lot to do with who the "favorites" are at the time. Some, like Livingston, have been around a long time and get slotted for choice jobs like the season premieres and finales. The only two-parter lately to be directed by the same person was "Equinox", which was directed by Livingston and obviously had a long hiatus in between. "Scorpion" was Livingston/Kolbe and "Unimatrix" was Allan Kroeker/Mike Vejar. I'm not sure why two directors were used in those instances but in both cases all the directors are ones who are accomplished and who TPTB feel confident with. The two-parters in the middle of the season have a much shorter turnaround period and are usually ambitious episodes. Under Braga's producing style, things were probably hard enough keeping the production schedule of one episode straight, much less two back to back. Back in the fifth season there was a weird coincidence where "Bliss" and "DF" aired back-to-back, week to week. "Bliss" and DF1" were directed by Cliff Bole, but there was actually an episode in between those two productions, but still, it's not typical that Voyager directors work on episodes that closely together... One thing that TPTB have done in the past few years in terms of establishing a sense of uniformity between two-parters is making sure that the same composers work on the music for both parts regardless of the fact that they are back to back. I think they learned their lesson after DS9's "Past Tense" (I think that's the one) where Dennis McCarthy did Part One and David Bell did Part Two. Both are good composers but have a distinctly different style. Since then (and maybe "Future's End") I don't think that there's been a case where an episode was composed by two different musicians. Thank goodness! It allows musicians to use a unique theme throughout the story. Jay Chattaway did that for "Scorpion" and McCarthy did that for "Unimatrix Zero". It makes for a nice piece of subtle continuity when the same musician is responsible for underscoring the mood of both parts of a continuing story. Jason I dont agree, Terry Doesnt Janeway look in disappointed surprise to Jaffen when she learns Chak has been imprisoned? i think she's surprised, and was planning to keep helping or at last not to turn in Chak. Hmm...that line did strike me as surprisingly flat--in the sense that it was so flat-out. But in saying,"Not for a second," was Janeway just trying to reassure both herself AND Chak? that was my read. david g david g I agree Though I don't think they would have been able to dig themselves out of not only the warp core blowing up, but the crew dead as well, that story would have been controversial and intriguing. However, turning them into Kobali would have forever changed all of their appearance, as Lindsey Ballard had relapse in her human transformation. But what they could have done was shown the ship going down as the systems fail one by one, the core blowing up, all hope is lost, the EMH is the only one left on the ship trying to salvage it, radiation killing them and so forth like how Fuller envisioned it, but for the 1st half hour of the 1st part. That would have been dramatic and downright cool. The civilization finds the crew, their memories scrambled by the effects of the radiation. The species of that civilization try to help, but in the end just can't cure the effects like the Doctor could have. Instead, they repair what they can of the memories by trying to replace the memory engrams with some kind of organization the crew can understand. Then they integrate the crew of Voyager into families that need them and jobs so that their lives can be happy. The away team finally repair part of the ship without the warp core, and at last find their crew on the planet. Not knowing the situation they go down and spy on what's going on. They think their crew has been abducted and try to get them out. Finally, it is revealed that the people of that planet were only trying to help and make the crew happy and integrated since they had no idea that someone would come looking for them. They have developed feelings for the crew of Voyager, but in the end the kind and benevolent civilization lets the crew go and even help them out one last time by giving them materials to build a new warp core, antimatter and matter. Talk about guilt! This way, Workforce could have been kept closer to the original Fuller idea. Things that could have made the episode even more controversial and interesting would have been to pair certain people off for the hell of it. What if B'Elanna was say, Seven's or Tuvok's wife or something so that when they return to the ship and become normal again, they have all these feelings unresolved. Or Tom or Tuvok not wanting to leave cause they fathered another child, or Janeway having adopted a few children or married Jaffen. But alas, this is Voyager, and the reset button is often well used so we never get this kind of risk taking. ECH Geordi Wrote:- "1) Harry/Doc scenes on Voyager. I agree with Harry that Doc is just following his ECH subroutine program, so Doc isn't really that great a CO as he keeps bragging to be. Think about it, I like Doc to stay being Doc. With the ECH subroutine, he's even now able to fly the ship, when in "Message in a Bottle"," Doc hates feeling inadequate in any way. Whenever he feels his program fails in any way he goes to the Captain and asks her to delete the offending subroutine. His ECH function worked pretty well for him, except for his piloting and technical skills. Knowing the Doc he put that right immediately he got back! I just loved message in a bottle. Everytime I see those holographic pips appear on his lapel and see that smug look on his face I just howl with laughter. Tim My interpretation of that look was one of shared guilt. I thought she was embarassed and trying to hid it, not upset. If they did phone a call to the police, it was obviously anomomously because the police didn't know who tipped them off. Re: "I think Chakotay was turned in..." I'm not sure about that. When I saw it the first time, I thought Janeway had done it, however that didn't explain the way she tried to bluff the investigator when he came calling the first time. Then I thought it was Jaffen... but a similar problem arose. Why would he turn Chak in... while he was still in her apartment with the dermal regenerator that KJ had lifted from the plant. Either fact alone would lead the planet PTB's back to Kathryn. An anonymous tip, perhaps, and a misguided belief by Jaffen that they'd never trace it to him? Nah... still too risky. I suspect all Jaffen had to do was convince Janeway not to keep going back to the apt... and he did. Yerid never assumed "they" called him, and never said he was tipped to their presence by a "concerned" citizen. Since 21st century Earth has technology that can pick up the heat signatures of bodies through walls, I wouldn't be surprised it Yerid "searched" the apt building looking for Chak in a similar way. Hey, the guy had to "go" somewhere, and it was obvious he wasn't at Neelix's ship or in B'Elanna's apt. I agree that the "conspiracy" was neither a military, nor a sanctioned government one. It was a bunch of greedy government/ medical/ industrial people banded together to create a modern day slave trade, and I preferred it that way. As for the "Not for a second"... I thought it was right on. Janeway doesn't regret getting her life back... she regrets not being able to bring Jaffen along as something other than a glorified concubine. But then again, that's only my take on the subject. YMMV D47 How I read that "Not for a second!" line. Mulgrew was trying for, and IMO hit, a wonderful note of complexity. Does she feel sad about leaving Jaffen? Yes. Does she feel disappointed that she can't keep that "being at home" feeling? It's what she has lived the last seven years of her life, in a sense GIVEN her life, trying to regain - not just for herself, but for her crew. Yet that "at home feeling" on Quarra was false, however pleasant, and although she's sad and still shaken by all she's been through...does she have any REAL regrets about being back where she belongs, headed toward her REAL home once more? No. "Not for a minute!" is the truth, but having no real regrets doesn't mean she's without sadness or - nostalgia, for lack of a better term. You're confusing one epy for another. You're confusing "Message in a Bottle" with "Tinker Tenor Doctor Spy". "TTDS" was where Doc have those pips pop-up on his collar. "MiaB" didn't have that scene. "MiaB" was when Doc was sent through the alien subspace array back to the AQ and ended up on the USS Promethius with EMH Mark 2 and the Romulans. It was in "MiaB" that showed the irony that Doc can't pilot a ship, while Tom didn't want to be in Sickbay. Poetic justice. Thinking about it... If it was so simple to just *plug* a subroutine in Doc so he can become a good pilot, engineer, etc., he'll make the rest of the crew obsolete and out of the jobs. Thus one good reason why they didn't do it, for his place is in Medical. I don't mind that he expands his knowledge and want to learn other skills other than his own, but it's not fair to just plug him with a subrountine so he can take over other people's jobs. I love Doc as the ECH in Part 1, but he was bit too smug in Part 2. He was still the lovable Doc, but he took commanding bit too much. Good thing for him, he adapted to cooperate with Harry or else they wouldn't have able to even defeat the Quarren ships. But now that the crew has been restored, no doubt he's back in his Medical blues. The ECH was meant to be used in only an emergency though. Now that the emergency is over, I doubt Doc would be pressing Janeway for more command experience. She'll gently rebuke him. If he keep presisting, he'll get the Death Glare. Agree, Andrea. As I said before, Janeway's last line... ...kinda bothered me...it made it seem as if she swept her happiness with Jaffen away with the rest of the garbage...y'know, a "don't let the door hit you on the @ss on the way out" sort of attitude. Now, perhaps they decided that since Janeway is a very private person, she would keep it all inside...even to Chakotay, who seemed fooled by it, too; but if they are such close friends, he should have said "Bullsh@t!," but with an understanding smile of course. Or, she could have said, as Kirk did at the end of CITY, "Let's get the h@ll out of here." It would have been a real heart-zinger. Mindy Maybe... Maybe not. I thought I heard Don Most's character said to the young Quarren doctor that they were running under the military and that he would have to report the young doctor to them. I maybe wrong about it, but that line was what made me think it was a military operation not sanction by the government. Then again, he might have said it just to scare the young doctor off the case. ...of VOYAGER before seeing the show where it turned out that the actual filmed story is better than is what was on the written page. (I was a little worried when I read the synopsis of Part II curtesy of "Thinky" over at Trekweb.) This was a great character-driven show with the action serving them, rather than the usual other way around which we too often get on VOYAGER two-parters. Mindy Bones, that's a pretty good story... The ending might be a little sappy, but that can be worked on; you might want to tighten up and submit it to Pocket Books for the STRANGE NEW WORLDS collection. Editor Mindy YMMV on the 'look' I think everyone will have a different opinion on the 'look'. It's like the debate over the 'look' Janeway gave Seven in "Retrospect" after the guy's ship was destroyed. Some saw that scene as Janeway blaming Seven for the whole mess (sparking the debate over that she was cruel to Seven, who was a victim of *something* done to her) while others saw it as something else entirely. For me, Janeway's "Not for a second." line along with her expression doesn't feel right. Yes, there was no doubt she was sad or else she wouldn't be so mushy with Jarren in her quarters. But no regrets? I doubtful that she 100% doesn't have any regrets or else she wouldn't have been been so mushy with Jarren or even mention she would offer Jarren a position on Voyager. It's not easy to shake off what she has been through. Her expression plainly shows that. So she being 100% regretless? Again, doubtful. YMMV on this. Bones, get thee to a keyboard NOW! That would be such an incredible story! Ronit (volunteering to beta read before the stampede starts) That was a very touching moment to me, too When Janeway was beamed out, I was afraid that was going to be the last they showed of her relationship with Jaffen. Happily, they got their farewell scene instead, which I also liked. The beaming-out was more effective than about any dialogue I can think of to portray the loss Jaffen was going through. Excellent choice! Sherry Re: Regretless? But that's not what Chakotay asked her. He just wanted to know if she regretted HIM showing up, and bringing her back to her "real" life. I have to agree with Nina on this one. "No"... "Not for a second." D47 I was talking about when the ship first gets fired on, Look behind Harry and there's someone with a sleeve with yellow on top sitting in the command chair. Next time we see her she's at the engineering station to get transporters, etc. working. Hell, no! I didn't mind what Fuller was saying until he started talking about the crew dying and the Kobali coming in. The Kobali tested the limits of plausibility in "Ashes to Ashes" and using them as the device to save the crew's lives would have really been cutting it close (actually, more like crossing over the line) to absurdity. I don't think that Braga would have okay-ed that version of "Workforce", either, but who knows. I really don't know how popular the Kobali are int he first place, but a sequel to... "Ashes to Ashes"? Considered as a good idea? Jason I tend to read it this way. She has regrets that she will leave Jaffen and the time they shared together, but she also realizes that it wasn't real, (though her feelings for Jaffen were). Because of that, she has no regrets on leaving a fantasy, but she realizes that she is going to have to come to grips with her feelings about Jaffen. She doesn't regret Chakotay coming after her because she realizes she has a greater mission which she must accomplish as does the rest of the crew. Her loyalty to the crew is greater than her own personal happiness. Off my soap box now. Roxanne Exactly why not, Jason? I dont understand why a)the Kobali are implausible, or b)Braga wouldnt have okayed the idea? somehow i feel like youre saying only you really understand Braga's mind in your post...not to be overly combative. david g Roxanne, AChampagne, and others, these complexities make ... WORKFORCE an interesting ep... i think i actually MAY return to this ep, after all, because the complexities really are rich. david g Janeway is never fully herself when she's in a relationship First, in "Counterpoint," she's not being entirely honest with that cute AOTW (who, of course, is not being honest with her). In "Fair Haven," she is pretending to be some kind of country girl passing through. Now, with major parts of her memory gone, she is a woman whose only real ambition, if you could call it that, is to be the best employee she can be. Granted, the crew had enough memory to retain something of their own personalities, and, Janeway most likely has a side that is complacent and more than willing to be a follower rather than a leader. (I like how, when Chakotay suggests to the brainwashed Janeway that she could be running the plant at which she works, she doesn't debate that she has the capability, but instead asks:'Why would I want all that responsibility?" Not at all like the Captain who watches over her crew like a mother hawk! The Janeway that fell in love with Jaffen was a different person from the "real" Janeway. Most likely, he would not be as compatable with Captain Janeway as he was with Kathryn.And,I think the reverse is true. They both know it too; that's why despite the tearful goodbye, neither one pushes for them to stay together. IMHO, Lauren I thought he said that the Ministry of Health was financing his research and brainwashings. And that the Minister of Justice was involved in their conspiracy as well. And ordered the guy commanding those ships to attack Voyager. It does seem unlikely ship could be commiting so much violence in orbit without raising some eyebrows. I guess someone should watch a tape of the show and tell us just what Dr. Malph actually said. Hey, don't look at me, I just defend Braga! I didn't mean to speak for Braga, really! Based on the kind of Voyager stories we saw from him, I think that this would have been a bit too extreme, but I really have no idea. It's hard to guess what kind of story a person might like and might not. When I said, "I don't think that Braga would have okay-ed that version of "Workforce", either, but who knows" I was just suggesting that IMO it's not exactly the type of thing we would NECESSARILY see from Braga, but again, I really have no idea! Who knows. (OTOH I really doubt that this is the kind of thing that we would see from Menosky! But again, I have no idea. ;-P) If pressed to support that I would have to say that Braga would be conscious of the fact that "Ashes" established that the regimen for counteracting the Kobali alteration techniques is pretty extensive. Treating the entire crew a few times a day to stop from transforming back into a Kobali? That would certainly strain plausibility. I also think that the Kobali angle would have been too much of a gimmick to get to a perfectly good core story that "Workforce" found without knocking itself out with some overly contrived plot device to get to it. I just think that the whole Kobali thing would have been very contrived, and would have been a complication on the story that would have had to be explained. The Kobali weren't exactly that memorable. There would probably have to be exposition to remind the viewers who the Kobali were and what they do and why they do it. You could argue that Braga usually likes introducing new threats instead of going back to the well so that might be another strike against the Fuller-proposed storyline. But as for understanding Braga's mind... well, as we all know, there's a lot of jokes to be made with that one! Jason Off your soapbox, and back to your songwriter's tablet? "Regrets.... I've had a few... But then again... Too few to mention... I DID... What I had to do... (and then I forget, the rest of the lyrics! Where's that DS9 lounge singer when you need him? D47 By saying the Institute of health... was financing him... he inferred that the young guy couldn't run to "them"/the government to "expose him". By pointing out that the Director of investigations (Yerid's boss) had okayed the transfer... he inferred that the "police" would protect him. He never actually said he was sanctioned by any government body. In fact, when the young Doc asked "does everyone know", the response was "no"... just key people at key places. What the Doc should have done was hightail it for the "press", but I doubt he'd have gotten out of the building before he was restrained due to "mental illness" and forced into dysphoria treatment. The fact that Yerid was back into the thick of it once all was revealed, and that the head guy had investigated and found/planned to repatriate thousands of involuntary workers, was the final proof (to my way of thinking) of the government's innocence. D47 Yes, he asked that, but you're missing the meaning That is exactly what he asked, but one can tell there's an underlying question in his question. He was also asking whether she regret him taking her away from that 'life' made on Quarra. It was obvious that question is what he meant as well. Again, was she regretless? No, I doubt she was totally regretless given that facial expression. Well, that's what I was trying to point at. Some people keep saying she had no regrets, when I heard the underlying question to Chakotay's question. Yes, she has regrets for her lost so-called 'life' on Quarra, which was the underlying question I heard in Chakotay's question. Janeway may have no regrets of Chakotay bring her back to whom she was, but does she have regrets of Chakotay taking her away from that 'life'? Like I said, I doubtful she was regretless in that matter. Like I said, YMMV on that scene. I saw in different than most here. That facial expression and her answer just didn't mix well in my eyes. She had no regrets of Chakotay bringing her back to whom she was, taking her away from the 'life'? Doubtful. I'll try, D47. Just debating whether I want to go back and do some of the other episodes or not first. Roxanne Re: Bones, that's a pretty good story... Hi Mindy, Wow, thanks for the advice, but I'm not much of a writer. And the fan fiction I write, well, let's just say it's not for everybody... I was just discussing the merit of Fuller's original idea and how TPTB didn't have to take all the controverial/risky stuff out of it. I've started to believe that TPTB have wasted the best ST cast ever by not taking the risks that it could have. Any since they are in the last season, why not go with a bang. You never know, you might create something that gets popular and get people into theaters by incorporating a few of the characters into the next TNG movie. Anyhow, I don't take my own ramblings seriously. Isn't it plagerism to take someone else's story and rewrite it as your own??? Nope, think again. I went back to rewatch the episode (I have it taped), and B'Elanna isn't in the command chair. When Janeway first contacted Voyager, B'Elanna moved to stand just behind Harry at the helm. When Voyager was attacked a few moments later, one can see on Janeway's viewscreen that B'Elanna was still standing behind Harry. Thus what you saw was B'Elanna's sleeve all right, but she was still standing behind Harry. She never was in the command chair during the entire battle. She moved from the helm to engineering shortly after the battle started. Therefore, Harry and the Doc was still in command. Not B'Elanna. Or else she would have been the one giving orders around, which she didn't even did. Thanks but Fuller wrote it! Hey Ronit, Glad you liked my elaboration, but can't take the credit since Fuller essentially developed the main idea, just didn't work well with the whole Kobali thing. TPTB may have tuned it down, but they also took the bite out of it. Still, Workforce was still a solid outing, albeit somewhat quiet. The reset button was pushed once again of course. As for getting me to a keyboard, well I'm already there, just producing bad works of amateur fan fiction of a certain pairing that's not popular. I will refraining from saying anymore. Thanks for your response though, but I really only took off from the Fuller article that david g mentioned. yours, bones Ahhhh, the "underlying" question... As you or david pointed out, those "underlying" questions make for GREAT fodder on discussion boards, don't they? Since there is no way to objectively prove them one way or the other, we can argue ourselves blue in the face about what they mean. Well... unless TPTB revisit the question in another ep. We have differing opinions on this one, Geordie, and that's okay. As long as I enjoy my interpretation, and you enjoy yours, it was a successful outing. And yes.......... I DID enjoy this one, with all its subtleties (that can't be spelled right!), and will enjoy it again with the neighbors tonight. If they come up with a different interpretation from our two... I'll let you know. D47 I see what you mean, Jason It just seemed to *me* that Braga's perverse, wicked sense of humor would have dug the idea of the crew dying and being subsumed into the Kobali--the unbearable intensity of a situation in which the crew is forcedout of Voyager, in a DEADLOCKish way... the Kobali thing WOULD have been a very tricky issue to deal with, though... Sigh. I liked WORKFORCE, particularly, Part Two, but it aint no COURSE:OBLIVION. david g Licking my fingers Sounds interesting. Which episode is it? We`ll be entering the Void as soon as Voyager ceases to exist. Who`ll navigate through the Void? The CoffeeNebula? But without Voyager no coffee addicted Janeway and co. The Void... There`ll be no tomatos from me. I love Seven too. I love the balance between humanity and Borg- efficiency best. Have a nice weekend! Live long and prosper! Lioba "Final tally..." Well, we have 4 for "not regretting" Chak's rescue from ignorant bliss on Quarra... although Chris did note there was sadness in the "loss" of that life. She equated it to Picard's loss of his "Inner Light" life. I thought that was a neat parallel, and different enough to note for the board. Did Picard regret waking up? Or just regret not being able to have such a wonderful family in "reel" life? Well, off to contemplate the promo for next week. Oooh boy! D47 Saw the scene you were referring to, D... I suspect you were fooled by the camera placement. B'Elanna is indeed "behind" Harry, but she walks up to stand behind him during that scene where Janeway is talking to Voyager and the ship is being fired upon. Geordie is correct, that we never actually see her sit in the Captain's chair during this ep. For that pleasure, you must return to season 6's "Tsunkatse". D47 Me, too, david g. Don't think there's any need. (nim) What do you think there's a Writer's Guild for?! Mindy Vic is the one we need, all right! In his absence, I went browsing on a Frank Sinatra fan page, and found the next words: Regrets, I've had a few; But then again, too few to mention. I did what I had to do And saw it through without exemption. I planned each charted course; Each careful step along the byway, But more, much more than this, I did it my way. Sherry Re: You're confusing one epy for another. The last paragraph is especially well said! It sums up the impression I got of Doc's turn as an ECH. In the end, other officers can draw on intuition, leaps of thought, and even emotional impulses. They may not have the Hologram's encyclopedic grip on past history, but those other abilities are more than equal to it. So the command version of the hologram is only called upon when those others are unavailable. If you haven't guessed it, I loved it when Harry showed that he has command resources to draw on which Doc lacks. Sherry Ahhhh... THANKYOU Sherry! You know... last summer we had that thread on "If Voyager was a musical, what song would be a good theme for each character...?" I think we've found Janeway's song.
"Regrets, I've had a few, but then again, too few to mention. I did, what I had to do, and saw it through, without exemption. I planned each charted course, each careful step along the byway. But more, much more than this, I did it myyyyyyyyyyy wayyyyyyyyyyyy." Sigh. How many left now?
D47 Re: WORKFORCE, PART II is even better than Part One I don't know if anyone will read this, I am only just beginning to chart the nebula but I thought I'd share my thoughts about Workforce. To put it simply, I loved it. It exceeded my expectations. It played like Caretaker but with less action. It didn't need it. But it had the same feeling of a bunch of people who don't know each other well deciding to come together to solve a mystery. My worst fear - that Jaffen would end up being in on the plot somehow, was thankfully not true. I love Dawson's directorial style. The show moved at just the right pace. My only fault was that it ended a little too abruptly in those final moments (and since when does TOM say aye sir? Please TPTB, give us a little credit?). I was pleased that they had to pick apart the problem. All too often things just go "click." I like the way they work together with a reserved trust. I really liked Tom and B'Elanna's relationship under mind control. Call me a hopeless romantic, but they made it work. And I loved the use of Neelix to bring B'Elanna out of it. Whenever B'Elanna hits a glitch she goes to Neelix (except Lineage). It works, or at least I like the way Dawson and Phillips make it work. Harry and the Doctor are great together, hands down. It is time for Harry to get that promotion! But we all know he won't. My only other comment is to watch their scene in the ready room carefully (right before Chakotay calls them with the false news). Doc at the desk and Harry standing, I don't know what anyone else thinks, but I totally thought they were mimicking Mulgrew and Beltran. Watch the mannerisms carefully. It'll make you laugh! Another little thing that made me laugh was when Janeway calls Voyager. "Captain?" H "Maybe you should just call me Kathryn for now." I cracked up watching Harry. I really wanted B'Elanna to say "They do, Kathryn." that would have been hilarious. I loved Kathryn's relationship with Jaffen. I expect that is what she is like when she doesn't have to be a 24-7 captain. We saw a glimpse of that way back in Caretaker during her conversation with Mark. There was no worries, just a short trip, her biggest concern was her pregnant dog and the fact that her honey doesn't bother her "except the way [she] loves to be bothered." By the way Jaffen looks like Mark. I had to get that off my chest. My heart broke when she got beamed away and shattered when she had to say good-bye. When he asks if she thought he abandoned her or whatever she has a huge look of relief on her face when she says, "never occured to me." It did, briefly. And then she has to turn around and leave him later. As much as we all would love to see her happily in a relationship, she can't. It isn't about her fears. It isn't about her feelings. It isn't even about protocol. It's about her. The way she thinks. She can't "fraternize with a member of her crew." It's poor taste and favoritism would come into question. She's the captain. The crew goes by her example. I have no doubt that had the Caretaker never come into play she would be happily married, and maybe even with a kid now. But it did and it changed all the rules for her. She's not in the Alpha Quadrant where she can focus her mind on things outside the ship. She made a lifelong commitment to the ship the moment she fired those tricobalt devices. She wed herself to her ship and crew. She will allow nothing to become between her and her promise to them, not even a loving relationship. Let's replay that final conversation shall we? "Ready to go?" C "It may not have been real Chakotay but it felt like home. If you hadn't come back for ME I nver would have known I had another life." K "Are you sorry I came back?" C Pause, turns to look him in the eye, "Not for a second." This scene parallels the one with Jaffen. With Jaffen she's relieved. She says "never occured to me" but the look on her face (that Jaffen can't see) says she did but is glad he stuck around. With Chakotay she looks him straight in the eye, no nonsense and says, "not for a second." There is no doubt in her mind that she is where she is supposed to be and confidently tells the helm to "resume course." Welcome to the Nebula, Janey. I agree with about Workforce. It's favorite ep this season and I also think one of the rare two-parters where the conclusion was better than the opener. I do, however, disagree about Janeway's last line. No matter how sure she is that she belongs as captain of Voyager, I doubt the sincerity of "Not for a second." To have decided against staying with Jaffen is one thing but not to even have considered is insulting. Re: WORKFORCE, PART II is even better than Part One Actually,Tom does say "Aye sir" in response to Janeway in a few episodes. I think the first time was sometime after the episode Thirty Days and everyone made a big deal out of it at the time. Since then he and others have said it a few times. But since it is always so infrequent, it is rather glaring when it happens. Welcome in, Janey! Always nice to see a new face. And on WFII--the whole thing, really, but especially part II--I still cannot say how much I love that ep--and I've rewatched it four times now! Just a fantasic ep, IMHO. I agree, Terry I think that "Not for a second" comment was Janeway re-assuming her captain-face. Chakotay likes to push the envelope and see if he can get her to reveal her feelings sometimes, but there really wasn't any other answer she could give in public. But in private I'm willing to bet that she has the regrets and a little mourning to do, however sure she is that she made the right decision. Welcome to the Nebula, Janey! Jules I agree, too, Terry. And hi, Janey! Welcome to the Neb. Pick your favorite brand of caffeine and stay a while! I think Janeway is keeping her real feelings to herself in this instance. First of all, the "goodbye" is too new to talk about it, in that she hasn't had time to digest it herself. Secondly, I really believe that despite the memory tampering, her emotions remained true and her own...which is why Tom and B'lanna were so strongly attracted to each other, btw. I don't think she'd be married with a kid by now if she had returned as scheduled from the Alpha Quadrant. Married...quite possibly. But she had just gotten her first command--I don't think she would turn around and get pregnant right away, feeling (1) it's not fair to either Mark or the child--look how guilty she was about asking him to look after her dog!; and (2) it's not fair to Starfleet, who has invested much time and money (sorry, I'm one of those who refuses to believe that the concept of being paid for your job has disappeared from the Federation--whether it's in paper money, e-credits or in latinum.) Of course, by now, seven years later, she and Mark would probably be talking about starting a family. Mindy Re: WORKFORCE, PART II is even better than Part One I notice EVERY SINGLE TIME it happens. It drives me up a wall more than anything else I think. It may seem petty, but from the first moment we know its "Captain" and that "ma'am will do in a crunch." How hard is that to remember? Especially when it TOM PARIS?! Even the cast jokes about the way he says "yes, ma'am." AARRRGRGHHHHHH! Okay, I'm done now. Im probably due for a rewatch, but, as much as i appreciate how well done WORKFORCE is, i just cant get past a collosal so-what? feeling about it... that having been said, there are superb moments like Jaffen reaching out for Janeway and getting transporter beam instead, and their goodbye scene. david g Re: Im probably due for a rewatch, but, as much as i appreciate I totally understand that. They have this phenomenal episode and then it never happened. That really annoys me. Oh, 136 people had their minds altered but we'll be fine in a week so we'll show it symbolically through B'Elanna (I could throw more snide comments here but I won't). But then we get an episode like Author Author that does actually provide some continuity and I get less mad. I JUST WISH SOMEONE WOULD MENTION THE FACT THEY WERE BRAINWASHED AND LIVING AN ENTIRE OTHER LIFE FOR MORE THAN 3 WEEKS!!! 3 WEEKS!!! I can understand 3 days but 3 WEEKS? Come on. We're not that stupid. Re: "Not for a second." And you thought no one would come back here and read your post? Oh yee of little faith!
Although I agree with you regarding Janeway having no other course of action once she uttered that infamous command to Tuvok in "Caretaker"... I also agree with Jules that there was no other PUBLIC comment she could make to Chakotay's inquiry. "Regrets? She has a few... yet then again... too few to mention." I don't see her response as a slam at poor Jaffen. How could her happiness take precedence over the welfare of 145 other beings? And can one seriously even "talk" about "happiness" when we realize we're talking about a person who has no real memory of the home, family, friends she would have "really" left behind... if Chakotay had not come to "rescue" her? Does she regret the fantasy wasn't something that could be translated into her "real" life? Of that, I have no doubt. Look at that last scene (Go Roxann!). Look at the woman in the turbolift... The one who must straighten up and turn herself to face the bridge and "her" reality yet again... "once more into the breach". A "breach" she's been schooled from birth to attack, a call she's been steeled over the last 7 years to answer... "Captain?", "they" ask. Does she hesitate to answer? "Not for a second!" D47 Re: "Not for a second." Deb!!!!!!!! You are a girl after my own heart! That was exactly what I wanted to say but couldn't make it come out just right! here, here! I'd follow that woman into the depths of hell just because I know she wouldn't let me die without a fight. From day one she wed herself to that crew, foregoing any type of extracurricular happiness in order to fully commit herself to them. She made a vow, first to Tuvok and then to the others, to get them home. To her, and to me, that promise carries all the weight and reverence of a solemn and holy vow and nothing, NOTHING, not even death (as we have seen) could EVER prevent her from keeping her vow. She is so cool. I wish I liked this beautifully made twoparter more I really respect how well done it is.. there's the superb stuff w/Jaffen at the end... i still feel though that there just wasnt much point to this episode... waiting to be enlighted... david g Re: I wish I liked this beautifully made twoparter more I wish I could provide you with that enlightenment... The point? I can't tell you what TPTB were going for but I can tell you what I go out of it. It was the calmest two-parter I have ever seen in any show. Nothing like any of the two-parters Voyager has done before. We see most of the crew living laid back "everyday" lives after seeing them battle for six and a half seasons. While as Deb suggested this life they were living couldn't be true happiness, thye were to a certain degree happy. After all as the saying goes, ignorance is bliss. So we get a glimpse of what our fav. characters could be like, in a round about way. Tom is still a flirt but sweet guy, B'Elanna is still apprehensive about letting people get too close, Seven is as efficient as ever, and Kathryn puts work before fun. But there is a more relaxed air about them. It was kind of nice to see them without all of the pressure for awhile. But it gave a taste of sensing who you really are. Tom and B'Elanna still found a way to one another. Tuvok's mental discipline wouldn't allow the mental manipulation to stick. Seven, thanks to Tuvok, was suspicious of those around her and wanted to get to the bottom of it. Kathryn was compelled to seek the truth if only for the sake of people who really shouldn't be here. And being so late in the game it was a nice testimonial to the group. Four guys vs. a planet aren't exactly great odds, but they would die before they did all they could to save the other 100+. And it was a good nod towards the characters that things become so engrained in their characters that, mind control or no, on some level you don't lose who you are. It was a nice we're doing this together "thick and thin" kind of episode. It's nothing we don't know already, but nice to see. If only TPTB could remember FOLLOW THROUGH. "Human Error" could have been better had the "Workforce" experience playe a part. And it was good if only for Janeway to have a sincere loving romance. The rest of the show could have been terrible and I still would have been happy. But, I still think it was a joke for them to promote the episode by questioning whether Kathryn Janeway would choose love or her ship. Puh-lease. To borrow Deb's technique: would she ever consider it? "Not for a second." I hate to agree with Michelle Erica Green, but, though Mulgrew was wonderful here and looked ravishing... I AM disturbed by the fact that a mind-altered J gets to have a romance while Captain J doesnt... if J/C were a real possibility my disappointments wouldnt be so keen here. david g Re: "Gets" to have a romance????? oh david, david, david... I think its time you stopped writing that danged dissertation and started watching Voyager again!
If not, then you'll be excommunicated from that super secret society that we two belong to! Janeway has had the ultimate romance... and I'm not talking MICHAEL here! She's fallen in love with her work, just as Kirk, and Picard have done before her... but I'm NOT talking "ship envy" either! Janeway had a wonderful 6+ week romance with that guy sitting 3 feet to her left... unfortunately she "resolved" to put that relationship behind her as firmly as she was forced to put the relationship of Mark behind her. Anything else, would just be "killing time"/getting her "jollies" and not worthy of the serious woman who commands our attention. So speaketh the secretary of the J/C forever contingent!!
Go back and love this show, david. You "know" you want to! D47 Deb, youve come to know me too well! Having begun rewatching S7 eps, I am realizing how much fun they are... I have been disappointed by some of the eps this season--INSIDE MAN, BODY AND SOUL, PROPHECY (not a bad ep just...lackluster until that final bridge shootout)--to feel somewhat annoyed at wasted opportunities. As often happens, a rewatch of an ep I had reservations about often yields a new *understanding* and pleasure of the ep, so that may happen w/WORKFORCE...as ive said! i think it's very well made--it just hasnt won my heart yet. But very, very few things in life give me MORE pleasure than VOY, so you can rest assured that my zeal, my ardor are unshaken! david g To everybody who's seen WF part 2 Ok guys, from your discussions I've managed to constuct some kind of storyline, but it's still a little fuzzy... anybody care to clarify the situation for me? What did Janeway exactly do with Jaffen afterwards and what did she do with Chak? I wanna know, I wanna know, pleeease tell me!! Okay Sweetie, since you asked so nicely... Let me back up just a wee bit. Seven, Constable Yerid, Tom, Janeway, and Jaffen are conspiring in the bar. Yerid and Seven will go to the hospital to try and rescue Tuvok & Chakotay. Janeway recalls Chak claimed he had proof on Voyager of who everyone was... and Janeway recalled the type of "frequency" on a subspace band that B'Elanna devised that allowed Voy to contact Chak. Seven points out the plant has a subspace transmitter, and Janeway turns to Jaffen and offers to let him off the hook for the rest of the adventure. Jaffen tells her he's been a part of this, since the minute he met her. Seven/Jaffen go to the hospital, take the bad Dr Raplh Malph hostage, and force him to take them to our boys. Jaffen breaks into the plant's comm office... up in the rafters, accessible by a "catwalk". Janeway enters alone, and Jaffen waits "guard" outside on the catwalk. (Suspended walkway=American slang) Janeway talks to Voy... which is about to enter orbit... and during the exchange Voy comes under attack. B'Elanna & Harry plead with her to take down the planet's shield by disabling the generator plant (its main energy supply). As she loses her connection, Janeway looks out and the catwalk is EMPTY! Jaffen is GONE! As she runs out onto the catwalk, she sees the shift supervisor (bad guy) and a security guard coming down the walkway. She turns to run but finds the other way is also blocked by security personel. Our Captain looks up, looks down, looks over the railing at the floor 20 feet below and does us proud. She VAULTS over the railing and lands on the floor as weapons fire bursts around her. Then a voice that "sounds" like Jaffen orders her to "remain still..." and she looks up to see a 5th security guard with a phaser... just as Jaffen comes up BEHIND him and zaps him in the neck with a hand welder (?) all the while disarming him. He drops to a crouch and drops the 2nd and 3rd security guard, as Janeway jumps behind him and a conveinient console. He mutters... "I hope you didn't think I abandoned you" between phaser bursts, and Janeway moves into a full body "contact lean" and answers breathlessly... "Not for a minute!" She tells him they must shut down the plant... but as the run to the appropriate consoles, they are thwarted. Thats when Janeway realizes if she uses another console to "trick" the plant into thinking its heading for a core overload, it will shut itself off. They are crouched behind a u shaped console as people are running around/ evacuating, and Janeway quickly works over the control panels. Meanwhile... back on Voyager... all heck's breaking loose, and the ECH isn't helping much. Harry comes up with a plan to trick the 3 attacking ships into tractoring 3 escape pods into their shields... unfortunately for the bad guys, the pods didn't contain our guys. They contained (?) photon torpedoes that blew them to smithereens. Just then Janeway brings down the plant, and B'Elanna repaires the transporters. As the plant & city gradually goes dark, we see Seven then Tuvok + Chakotay dematerialize. Next we see Janeway, still kneeling behind the console with Jaffen... dematerialize. Jaffen's hads pass impotently through the air where she had just been. The next shot is in the conference room with Harry, Neelix and the ECH discharging his last duties with the head of the planet and Yerid. We also hear the ECH talk about reawakening everyone else's memories is a "little" easier, after his trial and error with Torres. Next shot (sigh...................) is in the captain's quarters. She's in uniform... standing at the far right corner of the living room in front of the window, outlined by the starfield. Jaffen enters, hands in his pockets, with a rucksack slung over his shoulder. It looks like he's "moving on". He makes some small talk like... "no wonder you'd rather stay up here..." with a room/view like this implied. Janeway returns the small talk... saying to the effect... "I'd offer you a position on board... we could always use another engineer... but it wouldn't be appropriate..." She doesn't finish the thought. She's very stiff/uncomfortable, standing by that window as if frightened to move forward. Jaffen finishes the sentence for her. "It wouldn't be appropriate to fraternize with a member of your crew." And shrugs. He notes that "his" memories weren't tampered with, and that he really "did" come to Quarra for a better life. he notes that he's also been "promoted", and Janeway moves forward slightly... "Promoted?" (Something good has come from this?) Jaffen smiles and notes... their shift supervisor was fired for "hiring illegal workers"... and he got the job. He then crouches down, and opens the rucksack... As he takes out some familiar objects he says... "I brought along some momento's of our time together..." and looks up at the woman who can barely squeak out... "I ...don't...need... soveniers... to remember you..." each word moist with emotion. Jaffen's face looks as crushed as hers, and he jumps up to take her in his arms, and she hugs him as tears fall... fade out. (Give me a moment, kiddo... got to catch my breath.) Bridge shot... from above the pilot's seat towards the turbolift to the left of Tuvok's station. We see the door open... and we see Janeway, alone, standing sideways in the lift. She looks up, and we see her slowly come to attention and walk out of the lift. As soon as Harry sees her, he shouts... "CAPTAIN on the BRIDGE!" And every one snaps to attention. As she walks on the bridge, she comes around the command seats, acknowledges Chak and they both sit and stare at the view screen shot of Quarra. Janeway says (to the effect, not exact here... sorry. "It may have not been real, Chakotay, but it felt real. If you hadn't come after me, I would have never known I had another life." Chak turns to her and asks... "Do you regret I showed up?" And Janeway turns to him, without missing a beat... and said... "Not a second!" She then turned back to the front, and in a stong voice ordered "Mr Paris... resume course." The end. D47 Janeway says... "Not FOR a second!" The end. D47 Oooooh, that's SO sweet *tearful smile*... ...J/C as I may be, that Janeway/Jaffen scene sound really, really adorable... thanx for sharing, Deb... Re: *tearful smile*... I know just how you feel! As for the J/Cer's in the crowd... (you & me, for starters), I really think TPTB did us proud last week. They gave us an "honest to goodness" romance, they DIDN'T hit the "reset" button, they gave her a man worthy of the name, they allowed her to be honest with him, herself, AND Chakotay. Hmmmmm. Like I said, this J/Cer granted them extraordinary dispensation to love (J/J) as long as the PTB would permit them. And, as luck would have it, that was barely 3 weeks. Sigh. And yet.... like Picard awakening from his inner light... I STILL believe her "Not for a second".
D47 WORKFORCE: Just a little thing I noticed... ...and wondered if anyone else did-- Janeway's hair was her usual "between chin and shoulders", then when she was brainwashed, it was suddenly longer and softer, just below her shoulders, and then it was back to her "between chin and shoulders" length once on board VOYAGER. Hmmm...were visits to the salon for extensions part of the brainwashing? Mindy I noticed the hair too. Her usual style is very teased on top and flipped under quite a bit. I think they just let her hair hang more naturally, making it look longer. No extensions required. I still think the best hair growth/reduction moment is in "Investigations" Tom shaves off his Starfleet issue pointy sideburns when he leaves the ship to join the Talaxian convoy, get kidnapped by Seska, ferret out the identity of the spy on Voyager, and dash back to warn the ship and save the day. And then, the very next day, Neelix interviews him on "A Breakfast With Neelix". And there he is, back in Starfleet uniform, and magically with the pointy sideburns again. Clearly he'd paid a visit to the Doc, who'd experimented with an early version of that hair follicle stimulation that he later used with such success on Seven of Nine during "The Gift". Jules But stays cute either way, eh Jules! That really is her hair If anyone had ever seen pics of Kate's appearance in last year's Australia con and the Denver, Colorado con, one can see that her hair is as long as the brainwashed Janeway's. So that was her *real* hair seen in both parts of "Workforce". So it seems they can easily spruce it up to make it the captain's hairstyle (curls up at shoulders) without problems. From "Year of Hell" onward, it was Kate's real hair all along. i have never noticed the side burns bfore but... i did read an artical (cant remember where) saying that robert beltran has his side burns painted on! you should have seen me lastnight going through my vids trying to see who else has the pointy side burns! it seems that every male cast member including extras have these side burns! how come i never picked this up b4????? Pointy sideburns = Star Trek! I remember going to see ST-II Wrath of Khan with some buddies back in.... (gulp) well... a while ago. Before the movie started, we escorted a friend to the stylist for a trim and she overheard us talking about the movie we were going to see. She then offered to give him "the pointy sideburns" that was the signature of TOS... and it wasn't until then I started to notice them! See... that's "one" little continuity point Voyager follows that we "never" remember to point out!
D47 Re: Pointy sideburns = Star Trek! I was reading an official US Navy uniform / dresscode guide question and answer column online recently. (I can't remember why). Someone wrote in to ask about sideburns and the response was, and I quote, "This isn't Starfleet." This is NOT a humorous column, but the guy made his point to all the Kirk wannabees in the US Navy. But Deb... I just did. Jeepers, boss, I wasn't "dissing" you... I was dissing the REST of us who didn't point that out before you had to remind us.
D47 Yichaaa!!! J/C forever!!!! | ||
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![[The Voyager Crew]](../images/voyager_crew.jpg)
). But her "What about the guy who wrote these logs?" --woo. D@mn, RD is good. Not to mention EP, who turns in another supportive role from Neelix, and in spades. I do love his character. He simply makes me feel good.
! Love what you said about B'lanna and Tom, D'Alaire!
??? Huh??? Don't get the reference, Nina. Sorry. *goofy grin* (nim)
Ack!
But then how about if the story went like this...
Editor's note.