The Coffee Nebula Board is for the discussion of Star Trek: Voyager and other sci-fi/cult shows. This is its Archive of episode discussions, top ten lists, fan fiction, and other miscellaneous musings.
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"Who would have thought that this eclectic group of voyagers could actually become a family. Starfleet, Maquis, Klingon, Talaxian, hologram, Borg... even Mr Paris." |
The VoidOkay, I'll eat some crow. Janeway was right. This was a very nice episode. Not the big bang of the Braga days but very true to the original essense of Trek. Nice connection to the Federation charter. Very interesting story of how cooperation is ultimately the best survival technique. But how difficult that can be to achieve. I think it would be even more difficult than shown here but TPTB did as much as they could in a one hour show. I didn't mind the musical parasites but Janeway's sense of wonder about them was overplayed IMO. Mulgrew sometimes overacts when some subtlety is in order. One small nit. Big ship kicks Voyager around, is completely destroyed by General ---'s ship, which is then easily disabled by Voyager? A nastier problem is that the story set up Chakotay as the doubting Thomas who can never see why Janeway's idea makes sense. The writer keep on having him make the selfish or shortsighted suggestion again and again. Basically, Chak was made look foolish to make Janeway look even better. I would have admired the story if Chak's point of view fit his character better or at least showed more logical thought. I enjoyed the episode for the strength and purity of its main theme. VOID - Better than anticipated, but why must Janeway set in her way? The unique/unfortunate situation of being stranded in the void could've produced some interesting scenarios--with being low on food, resources and stuff--but Janeway-or-Noway chose to remain stilted to her StarFleet "principals". Is Janeway that darn stubborn? She casually dismisses Chakotay and Tuvok's advice to bend the rules for the sake of the crew, insisting that Utopia alliance plan would work. I for once, and in the regular timeline, would like to see Janeway in a rough situation where she's forced to follow Ransom's tactics of survival; but unfortunately "Void" didn't quite do it. For when lenity and cruelty play for a kingdom... ...the gentler gamester is the soonest winner. --Shakespeare, Henry V Sorry! Totally obvious, but I just love that one--and kept thinking about it throughout the ep somehow, and again when they had to ditch those slags. That's what happens when you don't get with Janeway! Nah! Nah! I don't have much time tonight, but I did want to say that I really liked this one. It really felt "Trek," while still being totally Voyager. Unfortunately, because [rassin frassin] UPN 20 in DC wanted the play b-ball, I had to watch the pretty yucky reception but always reliable ch.24 from Baltimore, I might have lost a lot of details. But from what I could see, and what I could definitely hear, this was a really nice ep. It ran slower than the last few have, but there was a lot going on. Thankfully, at the same time, everything leant to the same theme. Instead of being distracting, it all built up the whole. And even when I thought, "Yak! There's only 8 minutes left!" it pulled itself together for a rather decent closure. (sniff! I can't wait to actually see those FX.) Interesting to see Janeway hold onto her principles all the way through, though she did try to find whatever "loopholes" she could. I don't know if it'd been better to see her severely tested by the ship's depletions, but I never mind seeing Janeway stick to her guns, either. She's at her best when she does, and doesn't go for that "quick fix" she's been known to avoid. More, how she holds strong says a lot, at least to me. It's never perfect, but she does get through. That's the Janeway I love. Great emsemble work--everyone had something going on. Nice to see the Doctor doing something useful with the music (smirk). Great to see B'Elanna work out thier modulator--actually, very nice engineering stuff throughout. Yeaaah! That's our Klingon Princess. (And thank heavens they gave her a decent maternity tunic!) Tom's comments throughout were great--loved the "Who says gremlins in the engine are a myth?" LOL! Just like him! Neelix was his usual sweet self--and I loved his mention of his old ship and career. Liked how Tuvok dealt with the Potato People from TTDS. LOL! Here I said I couldn't stay up much longer. --Yeah, like I ever sleep on Wednesday nights. Needless to say, I really look forward to watching this one again on Saturday--with reception. p.s., Next week: Oooooohhhhh! This should be interesting. I hate that they've stretched it over two weeks though. (grumble, grumble) I never did like cliffhangers, and to my memory, even TPTB remarked how they've never 2-parted such a "quiet" ep. Hopefully, this one, considering how much I've looked forward to it, will be worth the wait. Plesently surprised by THE VOID It would have made a better two parter, but still very nice. I liked the whole link to the Federation best, and i enjoyed seeing some familior faces. However, i did NOT like having a Cardassion Wanna-Be. They even got an actor who has a very Cardi voice! However, i forgive this little manipulation because of the Void aliens! i LOVE musical languedge and Voyager pulled it off better then i thought they would. The FX were top notch as a sweeps show should be and everyone put on a good performence. However i was sad to see the return of Janeway is always right, so there lesson. But since i've seen much worse by Voyager i will let that one pass...for now! Eric WARNING!! I'm tired and cranky AND... I agree with Michelle Green about this episode. In short this episode was extremely disappointing. First off there was the overabundance of Seven. This episode started off on the wrong foot with Super Chef Seven. So what happen to irrelevant and her whole spiel in Body and Flesh. If that wasn't enough we had Transporter Chief Seven, Medical Officer Seven, Security/Tactical Officer/Away Leader Seven, Operations Chief Seven, Selfless Seven, First Officer/Captain's Confidante Seven and of course Super Linguist Seven and Astormetrics OFficer who doesn's use the sensors BUT Borg sensors. I guess we can safely say this episode was filmed i) after Ryan had completed her stint for Dracula 2000 (including publicity) and ii) directed/written by a Seven obsessed fan boy. I wonder if the abundance of Seven is due in part that its Valetine's Day and the steroetypical Trek geek (socially inept, male) myth that holds that the fanboy is at home hoping to whack off since he'll never get close to a really girl. Okay, what is up with wasting all of B'Elanna on screen off time with Paris. Why would Neelix waste any extra rations on the clearly overfed Paris? If I were that security guard I would march out of their and rant to anyone who would listen about how Pairs is getting extra rations; however I would never begrudge a pregnant food or a seat on a crowded subway or bus, etc. I could not have been the only one who noticed how thick Paris looks in the middle, especially last week. Why couldn't that been a cute scene between B'Elanna and Neelix? Granted I am assuming that married women should have their own identities, instead of their husbands. Because I am in a snarky mood and hate P/T did anyone else notice the balding spot on the top of Paris' head? I trully found Janeway insufferable in this episode. She was so arrogant and self-righteous. WHen she refused to use that stolen generator all I could think about how she rode shotgun over B'Elanna's principles in Nothing Human. Her argument was exactly the same as B'Elanna's. Next week it looks like a remake of TOS' This Side of Paradise, wasting too much screen time on Seven. Re: For when lenity and cruelty play for a kingdom... While not getting too intellectual about the ep, though I wish I could answer posts that way, I can say that I enjoyed the ep very much. I love Janeway. Especially when she's looking after her beloved ship and crew. Don't mess with her ,is the order of the day. I was thrilled that they left Torres in charge of Engineering especially when 7's dept was closed down. And 7 did not take over Engineering. There is still quite alot of antagonism btwn these two and I love to see it. But I do have to ask ? What is 7 now, the Julie Child of the DQ ? Honestly, cooking too ? Give me a tiny break! And what was up with P/T always trying to get a meal throughout the show ? And Janeway now stated that they have increased replicator usage? I assume that every bit of technology that was traded for or upgraded to during the time in the Void is now a permanent part of the ship. So maybe some of this will help them in the future journey and make it faster ? Good ensamble show . The aliens who *spoke* through musical tones were interesting. Score 1 (another 1) for Janeway's management of the situations. At least she didnt hide in her quarter or ReadyRoom as she did in Night. But I*do* understand why she did that then. Perhaps that situation was remembered by her and she had vowed not to repeat herself . Re: WARNING!! I'm tired and cranky AND... As much as I dislike 7 , I didn't see an over abundance of her scenes.I guess I was too wrapped up in Torres being in Engineering doing her job. Whether we saw her or only heard her voice, I was happy. And while I'm not a P/T fan and only put up with it because it's on my tv screen, I didn't think it was too bad this ep. ATleast we only got them eating dinner and not jumping into bed or kissing all the time. If I wanted romance, I'd watch the Romance channel instead of Trek. I am soooo sick of Seven's blantant overuse by the writers it repulsive. What will her pimp Braga have her doing next? Captaining the ship? Stay tune... Janeway-or-Noway is by far the most selfrieghtous captain in the history of Starfleet. It buggs the heck out of me how she's so damn right about everything and that no one else's opinion matters, because at the end of the it's either Janeway or the highway! We should have a Trek category for Hardheaded Starfleet Captains of the Week (HSCOTW). Picard felt it nessecary to bend the rules from time to time, and Kirk would toss SF "principals" out the airlock like every other week when it came to loyalty and the walfare of his crew. Janeway and Seven are becoming my least favorite characters every week. Bald Paris, Off-duty Torres, and smug Janeway I think the bald spot belonged to an extra. I made the same mistake myself. Right after Voyager was sucked into the void, we saw a scene with Neelix and Paris falling to the ground in the messhall. When they got up, Paris had a bald spot showing. Only thing is it wasn't Paris. I was wondering what the heck he was doing still in the messhall with the ship out of control. Then I realized it was an nonspeaking extra who looked a lot like Paris. RDM is losing hair but it seems to be coming from his hairline. B'Elanna was going quite a bit in this episode other than being off-duty with Paris. She was working in engineering on the polarity thingy. As for Seven, I barely noticed her except for her interaction with the musical mutes. Any minor duties she had may have been numerous but were unimportant. I believe she has frankly been practically invisible in many eps this season. Janeway. I wasn't going to say anything as I thought I was the only one. But she now usually irritates me the same way as Sisko. Even when she's right, she's so smug and self-important (and overacting) that she gets on my nerves. The Void had its moments I hate to be too critical of The Void because it was actually pretty good. It was a good old-fashioned Star Trek Morality Play and I always give points for that. The problem was that the two complaints I have about the episode are two things that we see all the time and they both annoy the heck out of me. Both, incidently, have already been mentioned by others in this thread, so I see I'm not the only one. I hate, hate, hate it when Voyager gets attacked by some weenie little ship and her defenses just evaporate while her weapons prove totally ineffectual. "Shields down to 80%...50%...30%...10%." "Fire the torpedos...No effect, Captain." But then, 20 minutes later, when it serves the plot, Voyager takes on a super-mega-death cruiser and kicks its butt. The second thing that really ticked me off was when Chakotay and Tuvok came in to try and convince Janeway that they should take stuff from weaker ships. EXCUSE ME? Does the guy who wrote that episode know anything at all aboout the characters of Chakotay and Tuvok?!? This is the way that scene should have gone: Chakotay delivers PADD to Janeway who is brooding at her desk. Chak asks what is bothering her. She says upholding her Federation principles is all well and good, but can she really adhere to the Fereration charter when it means a possible death sentence for her crew? Is it fair to them? Chakotay provides reassurance, reminding her of how important those principles are to her and of how adherence to them has allowed her and Voyager to triumph over adversity many times in the past. Janeway feels much better and makes brief speech on the need to be true to one's ideals. Now THAT is perfectly consistent with the characters involved and accomplishes the same thing. Aside from those two big gripes, I thought the episode was quite good. As for Pixie's comment about Seven being everywhere, honestly, I didn't really notice her much. I guess she was there, but I didn;t feel like attention was particularly focused on her. I did think the opening dinner scene was funny, with Seven refusing to allow Chak to have the wine he wanted or Paris to put salt on his meal. Cliched, sure, but still funny. Also, as for the "Tom Paris bald spot", I did the same thing Terry did. When I saw Neelix and "Paris" rolling around on the mes hall floor I thought, "What the heck is Tom doing in the mess hall, he should be flying the ship." It took me a moment to realize that guy was just an extra who looked a lot like RDM (although a good bit heavier). That extra appeared in another scene later on and I had the same reaction for just a moment, wondering what Tom was doing there, then realizing it wasn't Tom at all. The Void wasn't the best episode we've had this season, but it was a worthy addition. Vickie Hmmm. Aside from feeling as if I were in Sunday School...yup, even I found how right Janeway was just a little bit over the top. Yet the "following Federation principles saves our @sses in the end" is classic Trek, and I decided to look at it that way and move on. A good episode, and an enjoyable one. I didn't notice an overabundance of Seven, and I rather liked her telling her dinner guests how to enjoy their meal(!). B'Elanna was more evident to me (I wasn't comparing amounts of screen time, and have no idea how that would shake out), as well the chief engineer should have been in a script like this one. I didn't think Chakotay and Tuvok came off as fools. They had concerns; Chak in particular has the Maquis background to make me believe easily that he's had to cut moral corners before, and would do so again. Actually I enjoy it when those two, who otherwise are not natural allies at all, "gang up" on the captain as they did here. If this had been a two-part script, there might have been time for more conflict, though. Chakotay and/or Tuvok try to get the captain to come around to their way of thinking instead of just stating their concerns and then following her orders? Maybe some people get so frightened that they come to Chak and try to get him to mutiny - and he really does think about it, as things get worse and worse? No more time now, gotta work. If local basketball tournament coverage keeps me from seeing "Workforce" (either half of it), you'll hear me screaming no matter where you are on the globe! I can't wait, it sounds wonderful! Re: THE VOID...So what? That's exactly how I feel about this episode...so what? I did like the cinematography. I thought the director was very original in his camera angles; I especially liked how he (or she?) really showed the crew being thrown around by the force of the funnels...especially liked the scene in the mess when Neelix & Tom et.al. when a-tumbling, and the pots and pans and fruit and food went a-crashing. I also liked the montage scenes where we saw the crew working on the problems. Again, original direction and excellent camera work. Hey, did anybody else notice the little bald spot on McNeil's head? I'm glad he's not wearing a toupe or anything to cover it. I did like seeing Chakotay and Tuvok together questioning her judgement, even though there was absolutely no suspense in it. The dialogue was very nice. (But I still cannot get behind Beltran as an actor. I just find him extremely boring and monotonous in his delivery.) I didn't think the scene with Tom & B'lanna was necessary. Seemed like filler to me. The musical Fanotomes, or whatever the name of that "band" was (and I do mean the pun) became incredibly annoying after a while, besides the obviousness that they were going to help save the day...and it was hard for me to "get behind the music." Okay, I know that music is a language, and yes, I remember CLOSE ENCOUNTERS, but it just got kooky and hard to take seriously. It also reminded me of THE TROUBLE WITH TRIBBLES...so-called "vermin" help save the day; they are beamed over to the enemy's ship; our guys find them cute and non-menacing. But as a story? So What? Mindy Re: The Void had its moments Vickie said: I hate, hate, hate it when Voyager gets attacked by some weenie little ship and her defenses just evaporate while her weapons prove totally ineffectual. "Shields down to 80%...50%...30%...10%." "Firethe torpedos...No effect, Captain." But then, 20 minutes later, when it serves the plot, Voyager takes on a super-mega-death cruiser and kicks its butt. LOL! I LAUGHED! Isn't this the truth? A ship the size of a shuttlecraft kicks Voyager's butt but Voyager is apparently far superior than any ship in the quadrant. Mrs. Mac Can't agree ...my own mini rant ahead Janeway DID realize she was wrong abt not using the polaron modulator (whatever the heck it is!).she explicitly told Chak that she was wrong. Chak comforted her--why does that ake him look foolish? I know Seven has hogged up a lot of screen time in the past. but she really hasnt this season. it seems to me now that ANY time Seven has a scene or two some are complaining furiously that she's present, AGAIN! sorry gus, but she IS part of the show, and an asset (yeah, yeah)...how exactly and when should she be used? i thought this ep used her no more or less than the other members of the crew...the whole ep was very ensemble-y. david g Vickie's Review of The Void about says it for me, too. That Tuvok-Chak ambush of Janeway thing (Flesh and Blood) is gettng to be quite the trope. This was an ok ep. Like Vickie, i like the old-styled Trek morality eps...as a rabid Janewayite, i loved seeing her get an ep for a change. Somehow, though, this ep never got into the glamorous grittiness of DEADLOCK or EQUINOX--that's what i was hoping for. This ep was dark without being DARK--visually dark but not metaphorically, emotionally dark. I wanted a "balls-to-the-wall" (to use Jonathan Frakes's vulgar but effective phrase [on what the next movie should be]) actioner that really pushed people's limits. Everyone seemed too...sane for my taste...and not that discomfitted. it was a passable episode...lots of neat Janewayisms..."Vultures eat the dead, Mr Paris. We're not dead yet"...! i am also pleased Neelix has been used, in sweeps eps no less. i did appreciate the ensemble feel. i just wish this decent, pretty good ep had been more...rousing. david g Re: VOID - You mean you expect Berman et.al. to REALLY... ...take chances? To really twist the storyline and the characters? Q, you're watching the wrong show, and you expect too much. This isn't FARSCAPE, it's not BUFFY or ANGEL. One of the things that made LINEAGE so great was that it was so unexpected. But for some reason, Berman et.al. is afraid to do this on a regular basis. I don't understand it myself, because with ratings being what they have been, why not take a chance?? They might have even gotten some "non-Trekkers" to watch, and the critics to sit up and take notice. There was no sense of drama, of danger, no build-up...I never felt the crew's predicament, i.e., low food and power reserves. The show would have been better served if we had seen some conflict about this...food getting really low, power almost gone, the crew incredibly "cranky," Janeway then really working to keep her principles. It could have been a really interesting and dark show with light at the end of the funnel (pun intended;-)) This show typifies to me what irks me about VOYAGER so often... It leaves me saying "So What?" Mindy D'Alaire, FYI, regarding WORKFORCE... Next week's TV GUIDE (I have a subscription so I always get in the mail a week before the week it's good for) actually gives Part 1 of WORKFORCE a "thumbs up" and an "Editor's Choice" close-up. So, we'll see. I, too, am hopeful. Mindy Terry, don't know how to say this but... Terry said : "Even when she's right, she's so smug and self-important (and overacting) that she gets on my nerves." She has been that way since Caretaker! The only difference is the directors from the first three seasons were able to hold Mulgrew back. But that changed in season four where they let her go full speed. It has changed Janeway from a Capatin that sometimes annoyed me to one that made me want to kick in my TV. It doesn't bother me so much now since i really don't put that much emotion (energy?) into Voyager anymore. Eric Funny how everyone complains when Seven does her job... ...like she did in this episode. I strongly agree with david here and i almost NEVER do! Seven was well used in this episode for perhaps the first time this season. I HATED Seven almost all lasts season because of the repulsive creation of Nanny Seven. She was NEVER about that. THIS is how Seven was used in season 4 and should have been used all along, as a trouble shooter who "consults" with the different departments and lords over her own Astrometrics lab. Eric The Federation Lives and Seven plays "Soup Nazi" Good show, a really good show that returned us to the very basic Trek principle, The Federation. Man, I love Biller as the producer. Of course we knew Captain Kate would get everyone out of the void, but it was her Kirkness and Picardness, and Siskoness, that really showed, that "I'm right and I am sticking to my principles" attribute that Federation Captains have. Speaking of this attitude, what about Seven applying it to her experiments in cooking. Ha, she becomes the "Soup Nazi." How hilarious, and how true for many gourmet chef/restaurant owners. How Borg. Good comedic touch. Now I wonder if this scene was planned or added because the filming ran short. And, did the director throw in that little Paris/Torres/Neelix candlelight dinner scene for the same reason? It was a nice touch, especially for Valentine's Day. We always complain that we don't get to see the fun or personal lives of the crew. Well, here we have Neelix doing something nice for the parents to be, trying to give them some quiet and romantic time. BTW, was Neelix the only one to understand Starfleet's understanding of sharing and working together for the greater good? His giving to B'Elanna his tarts and his comments about being the first to join Janeway's Federation ways said volumes. Even the mute aliens immediate acceptance of the Federation principles said volumes. Here too, the fans comments were heard. How many time have I read a post (not only on this board) about the universal translators being too convenient. Here we have a species learning to communicate non verbally. Cannot stop praising this episode. The more I think about it, the more I like it. This was an extremely rich show, somewhat like the food that Seven cooked up. Di Come on Eric, you KNOW you love the Janeway! NIM Would it help if she put on a purple catsuit? with tail? dg Nice review Diane! I also loved the Nygean Captain. He's was gravely cool. NIM Hey, maybe I'm being naive, but... ...you'd think TPTB would have enough decency to put maybe A LITTLE effort into their show for the final season. Moore should've kept his cool for the good of the series. Thanks Davidg for the compliment It's been a long time since I took the time, or should I say I had the time, to sit down and write a review. Besides the Nygean Captain, I really thought the "Fantome" aliens were quite creative. Di david g said: "I know Seven has hogged up a lot of screen time in the past. but she really hasnt this season" David, with all due respect... what show have you been watching? Seven hasn't been hogging up the screen time? What do make of: UM0, II, Imperfection, Inside Man, Nightingale, and Repentance? all eps where Seven was an influential piece of the plot... Like last season, and the season before, and so on. What's the old saying? "The more things change..." Good but not a favorite. I always like it when Voyager teams up with others against a common enemy or problem. Though the allies who didn't follow the rules and evenualy became an enemy was pretty predictable given their initial attitude to the "vermin". Did anyone else feel they resembled the aliens in Night? The writers actually remembered season 6 - the snoops from Tinker, Tenor, whose specialty was put to good use, and they mentioned the Vadwar. Must have been a pain to film with such low lighting in most of the scenes. David is right... Q, Jeri was involved with Dracula 2K this season so while she has had a few big episodes she has been supporting the show more then the star most of the time. And i think her time has been better spent doing things i can see Seven doing unlike last season. Eric Well, it couldn't hurt!...NIM Captain Trance Gemini! Laura Bertam would be so frikken HOT in a Starfleet Uniform! Playing safe with the cutthroats THE VOID was a pretty good episode. No major mis-steps but I would have liked to see some more suffering on the part of the crew. Janeway got through sticking to her own agenda but it would have been a bit more interesting if she had actually have come closer to entertaining the notion of compromise on some of the issues in front of her. Less than 10 episodes left until the finale? Come on, let's see these people really have to TRY to get home! Still, THE VOID was a strong episode and director Vejar again had some nice scene set-ups. It was nice to see the crew reeling from some of their knock arounds... not recovering quite as quickly as usual. The last scene, with the allies departing and Janeway musing on being part of a Federation again, was charming and a nice note to end the episode on. Maybe... ..but the writers need to tone down on Seven's remarkable miricles such as, nano-probs re-connecting a condemned criminal's conscience, and other Wesley type saving-the-ship heroics. Oh man. You know something's wrong when you forget to watch Voyager . . . and don't realize it until four o'clock the next afternoon when you log onto the Neb and see a thread about "The Void." I will get back to y'all on Sunday about the episode. 216 You're not naive, Q. Far from it! Agree, Q! My feeling is that any writer with a backbone or who in some way threatened Braga was outta there! (I don't know what's with Berman...maybe he's gotten soft and lazy and wants to keep his job.) Mindy I just want to say that I LOVE SEVEN!!!!! (nim) Re: Funny how everyone complains when Seven does her job... Agree with you and david g., Eric! I loved how Seven wanted more power reserves because she could then reopen Astrometrics, and B'lanna put her in her place. "There are more important things, Seven." "Such as?" "Air." The conversation was SO Seven and B'lanna. Mindy Re: Hmmm....actually, Nina and all.... Classic TREK had James T. Kirk throwing the Federation Charter and its principles out the hatch whenever they came up against situations where HIS ship and crew were in danger, or when he thought a civilization had "lost its way." Some examples: THE APPLE; RETURN OF THE ARCHONS; A TASTE OF ARMEGGEDON; the one with Tyree and his witch-wife; AMOK TIME... In fact, one of the things that makes CITY so poignant is that it's just about the only time Kirk CAN'T interfere, though it tears his heart out. And what about THE SEARCH FOR SPOCK? The man steals a starship and goes back to a planet that is as off-limits as Talos IV! Mindy You saved me from writing to much, Vic... ...cause you pretty much covered most of what I had to say about this episode. Only difference is you liked it more than me. I have one more peeve besides the ones Vic mentioned about Voyager getting its butt kicked too often and her other points. I found those little musical aliens annoying. AND how the heck could they call that void "Home"? Are we supposed to believe they are native to a place that contains nothing except ships that are sucked in there? And even if generations ago they had come there on a ship of their own, why in the world would they want to stay THERE subsisting on scraps and hiding in shadows? AND, what would eventually become of them on those enemy ships they were sent to? Even if they can't be detected what kind of life was THAT for them. Janeway must have known they would have a better life leaving the void, perhaps she took advantage of their willingness to stay in that miserable place. They didn't seem happy there to me. Frankly I didn't hate this episode, but I found it kind of silly. Sure it tried to show that old axiom 'teamwork is the best way to succeed'/'united we stand divided we fall'. Very nice moral, but it all worked out too quickly and easily...yeah, yeah, I know, it's only a forty something minute show, but still. Mike You're right about the musical aliens, Mike Mike wrote: ...how the heck could they call that void "Home"? Are we supposed to believe they are native to a place that contains nothing except ships that are sucked in there? And even if generations ago they had come there on a ship of their own, why in the world would they want to stay THERE subsisting on scraps and hiding in shadows? AND, what would eventually become of them on those enemy ships they were sent to? Even if they can't be detected what kind of life was THAT for them. Yeah, I thought about that as well. They couldn't possibly have been native to the void and without a steady influx of ships to feed off of they can't possibly survive. What happens if the void hits a long dry spell of no ships being sucked inside? Space is pretty empty, after all. A few weeks of no new energy and food sources and everybody in the place will be dead - including the little musical aliens. Vickie 24 years ago... My Dean gave his annual welcoming speech to our fresh class. I actually still remember one part. He told us of two men who each brought a mule to town. While there, they exchanged mules and each rode home... still with just one mule. However, if two men went to town each with one idea and while there they exchanged their one idea. Each would then go home with two ideas. I enjoyed last night's admittedly "quiet" show... and half wondered if this wasn't a "swipe" at the "Survivor" and "Temptation Island" shows that are taking over the networks. Janeway was placed in Ransom's position... and she did more than "survive"... she excelled. She showed us why the Federation had to come into being in the first place... because no matter how smart we are, how advanced we are... we can still learn from one another. We still need one another. If we want to get out of this place alive. Was she tempted? Sure, who wouldn't be. Even her trusted 1st officer and Tactical officer gave voice to their concerns... the here and now. The immediate problem. But The Captain can't just look at the immediate problem. SHe has to look at the whole picture... and when she "tried" to search her database for a "way out"... she found EXACTLY that. A way out. The way they've always escaped. By pulling together. I loved it when she was faced with the "Nothing Human" paradox again... with a different twist. In NH... she was facing a hologram full of data... not the man who murdered thousands. Accepting the holographic database would not encourage the hologram to go out and committ more murders... but accepting this man's illgotten gains would have sent a clear signal that the ends do in fact justify the means. Janeway couldn't do that, anymore than she could have stolen food that didn't belong to her from the other ship's cargo bay. Like she told us in season 2's Alliances (?)... we have to stick by our principles. They have served her (and us) quite well. D47 Catch-22 for Janeway, Vic... That reminds me, Vic. Getting out of the void may have been Voyager's goal, but isn't Janeway faced with a Catch-22 now? Damned if she does, damned if she doesn't. Now that a Federation ship with such a highly moral captain has escaped from the void isn't Janeway obligated to mark the area with some kind of danger warning beacon to save other innocent ships from being sucked into the void and stuck there like they were? And if Janeway does prevent other ships from entering the void isn't she condemning those already in the void to certain death, including those musical aliens? So Janeway left the musical aliens in a "home" where to survive they ultimately rely on other ships being sucked in and victimized for food. If she stops that, the musical aliens and all the others still in the void die. If she doesn't stop it other innocent ships are trapped. It seems to me the only real humane and "moral" solution for even Katie's little federation is to get *everyone* OUT of the void and then prevent others from being sucked in. Mike I'm still reeling from West Wing...but I did watch The Void. By the way, who started this thread? Mr or Ms Null And, very funny As I say, I'm still reeling from WW. I watched that first, then Voyager. Note to self, "always watch Voyager first". I do wish they had the courage to do some of what they do on WW. I liked The Void. It was a little preachy and I did notice a lot of Seven. She did seem to be everywhere. At least she wasn't as intrusive as she usually is, but she did show up a lot and sometimes it was totally unnecessary. "Soup Nazi", yes the first thing I thought of too. Very funny scene. I liked Neelix in this, very good and appropriate use of the character. It was good to see Tom in Astrometrics in the beginning, they have finally figured out that the navigator/pilot should be spending a great deal of time there. I couldn't figure out why Seven was in the meeting at the beginning with the first species with whom they were trying to set up the alliance. She was totally superfulous to that meeting, and the rest of the senior staff wasn't there. It gave her the appearance of importance that was inappropriate. I wanted to see Janeway hurt for her values, really hurt. Not physically of course. I wanted to see her devistated. Otherwise, what's the point. If it's easy, everyone does it. It was too easy to follow Federation Values and form the coalition. Yes, it took a few tries, but, still too easy. I wanted to see people die. I wanted to see people suffer. I shouldn't have seen WW first. There was no feeling of desperation, only the feeling that someone needed to turn on the lights. One of the things about YOH was the real feeling you got of futility and hopelessness. Except for the low lights, there was no feeling of need. Okay, after watching WW where "our leader" is pushed to the brink and makes a compromise I did not expect, a compromise for the lives of 5 people, Voyager was a bit of a let down. As I said before, I am still thinking about WW. One of the things they do on that show, which I love to death, is have the President consult with and listen to the people who are there to advise. Really listen to them. Rarely does he ever dismiss them and their advise. In fact, mostly he takes it and runs with it. What they did last night though, was the most couragous thing I have ever seen on TV. I loved the themes of what you believe you're seeing is not really there and where do you draw the line. How can you want gun control and yet consider sending in 20 Special Agents heavily armed to take out a drug king who tortures your DEA agents. It was just so wonderfully murky and muddled and real. Okay, I digress I'm done, I did like The Void, just didn't love it. Shadda Completely agree Mike about Janway and the space monkeys (nim) Well, if you're going to open that can of worms Mike... ...you could tac on those Jem'he'dar look-alike aliens stuck in that subspace sinkhole in "Gravity". But not as much or as passionately as I hate 7. (nim) nim Why thank you Mindy Actually, from what I heard Moore stormed out while brainstorming over "Barge of the Dead". While it may look like a typo... what I meant by "on-screen off time" is that when B'Elanna gets off-time that we get to see, it's almost always with Tom now. Worse, she isn't allowed to interact with the other cast on a personal friend level. I'm still upset that B'Elanna didn't get to talk to anyone about her impending motherhood in Lineage whereas Tom gets to reach out to Tuvok, and Harry. I am very annoyed that Seven is now going to be Chakotay's buddy. Ooops, I fogot to say... "As for Seven, I barely noticed her except for her interaction with the musical mutes. Any minor duties she had may have been numerous but were unimportant. I believe she has frankly been practically invisible in many eps this season. " Yes, Seven has unimportant tasks but they were numerous and that's what makes them gratituous. Chakotay, Tuvok and Harry should do their jobs not Seven. God knows those characters could have used the screen time. In this episode, it seemed to me that they were trying to stick Seven into as many scenes as possible. And Seven has not been practically invisible. I figure she has over a quarter the episodes focused on her (UniMatrix Zero, Imperfection, Body and SOul, Repentence and strong supporting roles in Nightengale) with more to come. This does not mean other characters aren't doing as well this season. B'Elanna is getting screentime, but B'Elanna got minimal screen time in seasons 4 and 5, and was knocked up and shackled to Paris this season. How many tears can Janeway cry? Sending out warning beacons to completely ward off risk of entry could be a monumental task. It was a large realm of space apparently covering 10 light years with no fixed entry point. I was thinking about warning beacons as Voyager escaped too, but would it be possible to adequately warn all or even most passing ships? Perhaps the best they could do is send out beacons along their own flight path and ask the Alliance ships, who are heading in the opposite direction anyway, to do the same. But as for the others... United with the Alliance rejectee, General Valen probably has the means and certainly the strategy to get his own ship out, especially because they have the polaron emitter which seemed to be (tech) (tech) (tech) important to the whole scheme in the first place. Warning/helping other Void inhabitants might have been unfeasible but would have been risky anyway-- hold out too long waiting for others and you lose too much power, leaving a reliance on either the old ways or the glimmer of hope that some new member might have the resources that were depleted while LOOKING for that new member in the first place. Janeway did the best she possibly could under the circumstances. As for the Tonal Aliens-- they were intelligent and adaptive and expressed an informed desire to remain in the Void. The episode suggested at least that they had at least evolved to life in the Void, meaning that if they weren't originally indigenous to it, it has nonetheless become their natural habitat. Maybe leaving them behind was not what was best for them in the long term but they WANTED to stay there and the Prime Directive (something which funnily enough never seemed to be mentioned in the episode) would probably have looked down on Janeway making that decision for them. BTW, I'm surprised that these aliens seemed so unpopular. I was glad for once that the 'strange' in "Strange New Worlds" was put back into an episode and alien race. Jason Bad news! B'Elanna has no friends! B'Elanna was never exactly close on a personal/friendship level with many of her crewmates in the first place. Only Chakotay really fits this bill. She's been generally friendly with Neelix over the years, too... but her other relationships are usually shown in the context of her working side-by-side with her crewmates. Well, except for Icheb but we all know that she had ulterior motives when she asked him to get together socially. The difference between Tom having these scenes and B'Elanna not having these scenes is that Tom has a broader network of relationships with his crewmates. And different types of relationships too. B'Elanna has to a degree always been just a little bit standoffish with almost everyone. As for Seven of Nine. ::Rolling eyes:: Give me a break. That episode hasn't even aired yet, and no one has said that Seven and Chakotay are going to have a relationship, become friends or even lovers. She is in part going to explore an attraction for him... but that might be just an attraction for men in general. Hasn't there been enough leaping to conclusions over the years to warn against doing this now? Jason Yeah Right & Seven is so warm and fuzzy.. That must be why everyone wants to be her friend; it couldn't possibly be the blatantly distateful nepotism and favoritism rampant on the set. I disagree with your assessment. B'Elanna pre-Tom and Seven had friends. She was Chakotay's very good friend. She stood by him, pleaded for his life and they are confidantes. Beginning with Carataker, Maquis and Starfleet had great chemistry and friendship. They respected each other and tried to comfort each other (Eye of the Needle); of course all that changed to give Seven more screen time and so that we could see Harry turned into a drooling idiot who needs someone with no life experience giving him advice. The Doc was her friend -- he did invite her to meet his family and there seemed to be a genuine respect between them. Over the years she and Neelix became friends, although TPTB saw it work and decided to give Seven and Neelix similar scenes. We also know that B'Elanna played Parchese Squares with Freddy Bristow. In addition, wlthough Seska proved to be decietful, she and B'Elanna were friends and did gossip together. As for Seven and Human Errors, don't you find it bizarre that Seven has essentially taken over many of B'Elanna's relationships and functions (although B'Elanna has been taking back engineering). Seven for whom fun was irrelevant, spend more time in the holodecks with Tom in seasons 4 through 6, athough before B'Elanna never had problems in the past participating holodeck simulations (Club Med and Sandrines) with the rest of the crew. B'Elanna took care of the Doc, even disconnecting his vocal subroutines. The same gags are now played with Seven. B'Elanna had a thing for Chakotay and S P O I L E R S now it appears Seven will. Is it so outrageous to think that TPTB will try to completely usurp B'Elanna and Chakotay's relationship after all they've abandoned that relationship because married woman aren't suppose to have male friends. Jason beat me to it. He's right, B'Elanna has no close friends. But it's hardly something for the writers to be patting themselves on the back for being consistent. As a B'Elanna fan, I've always thought one of the biggest flaws of the show was its lack of female friendships. B'Elanna, Janeway, and Kes were shown as being buddies with several men but no women. The women always looked at each other as co-workers at best. Even when Janeway interacted with the other two, it was as a surrogate mother or just as a superior officer. The most important purely female relationship on Voyager has been the one between Seven and Janeway. But I hardly call them friends. (And Seven and B'Elanna are shown as unfriendly.) It didn't have to be this way. B'Elanna was not so friendless, even as a resentful young Maquis. Harry was her friend before she said two words to Tom. But now she and Harry aren't shown as friends anymore and they hang together only with Tom or even larger groups. Even her friendship with Chakotay only shows up when the plot requires it. Heck, I liked it during early season one when B'Elanna had a close female friend. Even if she was a Cardassian spy. And B'Elanna used to work with other woman engineers like Seska and Susan Nicoletti. In fact, have we seen any women of the ship who have women friends? Even the ensign in Good Shepard hung out with a dorky guy. She's the astrometrics officer NOT... "If that wasn't enough we had Transporter Chief Seven, Medical Officer Seven, Security/Tactical Officer/Away Leader Seven, Operations Chief Seven, Selfless Seven, First Officer/Captain's Confidante Seven and of course Super Linguist Seven and Astormetrics Officer who doesn's use the sensors BUT Borg sensors. Do you think Matel could give Seven a little outfit for each of her jobs? Seriously, Seven was everywhere in this episode." Every single role that I listed were roles that Seven played in this episode. Seven's post is in astrometrics, which seems to mean she does the sensor scans (something that Harry as Ops should really do) and mapping. Essentially, Seven's role should be more like weather girl who comes on only to tell us where the spatial anomoly is and where they are in space. Anything else enroaches on other people's tasks, and is redundant. DOn't blame me for the writer's inability to trully come up with a unique and relevant role for Seven to play. I'm just calling them on it and will not accept the misuse of other more relevant characters. Great point about B'Elanna's holoplay. She was the one who found Insurrection Alpha in Worst Case Scenario and had to be pried loose from the holodeck with a crowbar. She even had suggestions for improving the game and wanted a new mystery holoprogram at the end Then all of a sudden later, she hates holorograms and thinks they're silly. Admittedly, Captan Proton is a ridiculous program for grown men. But she became the holodeck Scrooge in season five. Face it, the Voyager writers are weak. It's amazing how poor their continuity considering how well so many other shows write their characters. Almost every other SF show out there is known for great attention to detail. (Andromeda? Well, I did say almost. I don't think we entirely disagree... After all the whole point of my rant is that the writers have chosen to isolate B'Elanna so that she only has Tom. Where Jason and I disagree is taht Jason believes that it was never in B'Elanna's character to have close friends. Whereas I believe that B'Elanna did have friends and should still have the friendships, and am angry that she doesn't. Basically, Terry I don't see a disagreement in our views. Perhaps I am wrong. One thing that troubles me is the implication that B'Elanna's freinds should be female. Why? She had males friends and still should, hooking up with Tom should not change that, especiallly in the 24th century. This doesn't mean I don't agree that there is a glaring lack of female friendships on the ship. There is a dearth of female friendship on the show. Janeway did the best she possibly could under the circumstances. Indeed! I mean, this isn't like Faces, where the writers simply forgot to rescue those poor aliens from the Vidiians. The others in the Void had their chance, and when it came down to the "good of the many," Valen's uncooperativeness is his own responsibility. Janeway, in spite of any principles she might have been upholding, should not have risked her allaince's lives and power reserves. And yes, Valen and the other ship have the information they need now. That's enough for me. I also agree about the warning beacon. It seems like a simple thing until the size of the job is considered. Maybe one would have been nice to see, but I didn't think too much about it not being mentioned. And I'm with you on the Tonal Aliens. It's always neat to see the "wonder" of Trek pop back in, when you think you've had enough of AOTW. I found them fascinating, and smiled on them much as Janeway did. Re: But not as much or as passionately as I hate 7. (nim) Whom do I hate [dislike] more on Voyager , 7 or Paris ,hmmmm close race ,but I think of all my favorite or tolerable characters on Voyager, 7 hits the bottom of my fave list with Paris before her. At least he doesn't do the other's jobs and take screen time away from them. He's just annoying ,irrelevent and unexciting . But in none of those situations did Kirk save his ship and his crew by victimizing others. Yup, he stole a starship. No one was going to starve to death as a result, though. Haven't time to go through the other examples you've cited (which are accurate, to be sure), but I don't see them as clear analogs to Janeway's situation in "The Void." "Reeling" isn't what TWW did to me. Bursting into tears at the end is more like it. And tears still welling up every time I think about it, too. No other show ever does that to me. It didn't help that I've been spending so much time on military bases lately, and the faces I imagined in those coffins were those of some of the terribly young guys who worked so hard for us the last few months. Have to watch both parts again, though. Sorkin was taking some more of his affectionate swipes at Trek, which I noted at the time but which have now been overwhelmed in my memory by the ending. It's just so darned adorable when he throws those little comments into the dialogue. I haven't seen "The Void" yet. It was pre-empted by Maryland basketball, which given UMD students' behavior during the pre-game lately, fits right in on UPN. Can't decide if it sounds interesting enough to try to catch on Saturday or not. "Workforce", on the other hand, sounds good enough that I may even try to tape it while I watch TWW the next couple of weeks. Basketball schedules permitting, of course. MEG Re: Jason beat me to it. He's right, B'Elanna has no close friends. Are there any women writers left on the staff, Terry? Not that men can write great women (and vice-versa)...I'm just wondering if, given the apparently poor caliber of most of the writing crew of VOYAGER (there are exceptions...the guy who wrote LINEAGE, for example), the problem doesn't lie in the characters but in the attitudes and life experiences of the "boys in the band." And Pixie and Malqua, while you rave against Seven, let me just point out that she does not have any close women friends, either. Actually, I think she and B'lanna actually have a hidden, grudging respect for each other, but that in so many ways the two are so similiar, they can't cross the boundary into close friendship. We all know Seven's story. But I'd like to point out that I've also never seen B'lanna as the girly, coffee-klatch, pajama party giggly type of woman; she is basically, as has been portrayed by Dawson for the majority of the series, a very private person with a lot of walls up that only with great difficulty has she accomplished tearing down and that with only a chosen few. And please, don't rave at me for suggesting that they have simiilarities. You can answer; just don't rave. And by the way, I happen to love B'lanna, too. Mindy You know, the more you guys bash Tom, the less I like B'Elanna! And I like all the characters. I'm kinda like Deb in that I like them all. Yes, Seven gets used too much, so does the doc. I don't want to see either one of them the rest of the year, but I don't dislike them. Just tired of them. Shadda We were just talking about the friendship thing. . . . . .at the DC Neb gathering Saturday. Specifically, we were commenting on how the show's writers don't really "get" women's friendships or the way that women talk to one another when we get together with friends. I'd have to say that the only time they've ever come close is during the very early first season, with B'Elanna and Seska. One aspect of the early seasons which I really liked was the friendship which seemed to be developing among Tom, Harry, and B'Elanna. I thought it had great possibilities for giving us some continuing insight into the life of the junior officers on a starship. Of course that faded away, like so many other things, and became a kind of superficial, "throw in a reference if it advances the plot; otherwise ignore it" bit of stage business. I don't really think the writers have done well in showing us any friendships on the show. They talk a good game, but in fact they have seldom shown us that Janeway and Tuvok, Janeway and Chakotay, Chakotay and B'Elanna, are friends. And they've reduced Harry's friendship with Tom to a sidekick/hero relationship that smacks more of Tonto and the Lone Ranger than anything else. Sigh. Maybe it's the fault of the way they tried to focus on one character per show. Saying that this episode will be a Tom show, and this one will be an EMH show, and the next three will be Seven shows puts all the emphasis on one character and what he or she is doing at that moment. It tends to make it seem as if each individual exists in splendid isolation, with the world and the life of the ship revolving around him or her during the episode. It feels -- unbalanced. It certainly doesn't feel like the way real people interact and relate to each other. In the end, it's just one more thing that contributes to the impression that the characters are props in costume, cardboard cutouts rather than fully realized individuals. I really hate that impression. MEG Now, there's a possibility I hadn't considered. Thank you, Mindy; I now feel much better about the lack of close female-to-female friendships. I'm recalling with a shudder a number of fanfics I've read that have such friendships - with the women depicted sharing "girly girl" activities and conversations at about a middle school maturity level. I fear that's how they would be written by Voyager's "pro" staff, so perhaps I'll be glad they're just AWOL instead! I'm definately rewatching too. And where did the Josh and Donna thing come from. It was something that I looked at at the beginning of the season, but thought, no they won't do anything with that. They still may not, but it is an interesting sidebar. I don't remember exactly what the Star Trek comment was, but I do remember smiling as it went by. So much was happening, I really have to watch it a few more times to get it all. Is there somewhere on the web you go to to talk West Wing? Shadda There are some boards out there, Shadda. I don't post to any of them (yet! or the one at about.com http://forums.about.com/ab-tvschedules3/start/ Have you discovered this site yet? It has complete episode rehashes, rather like Jim Wright does for Voyager, although without Jim's insightful commentary. Kind of fun to read through. You need to scroll down the list of shows on the left to find TWW. http://www.mightybigtv.com/index.html?/home.asp&0 Now we're going to have to go back and pick up those Star Trek comments for sure so we can bring all this back on topic! MEG Mike, don't know if you read my opinion, but I, too, got annoyed by... the "Fantomes"--doesn't that name sound like a "girl group" from Phil Spector or Berry Gordy? Or maybe a punk group from CBGB's here in NYC. But I wanted to compliment you on bringing up something which I forgot to address in my post...i.e., the fact that they called the Void "home." (My first thought when I heard that was "huh?") You are a perfect echo of my musings. Thanks. I thought I was a minority of one. Mindy Most of the relationships on Voyager are disfunctional. Now, that's not necessarily bad, but you do need some good relationships too. They are doing better with the P/T relationship, and that's hard for me to say because I am a card carrying anti-P/Ter. You're right about the focus on one character per episode being a problem, but it doesn't have to be. The other problem is that only certain characters are allowed to be insightful and deep thinking. They are the only ones that get to say the great lines. The rest are reduced to "shields are down to 20%" lines, not great in the character development department. Interestingly enough, Neelix does have more development then most of the other characters. He does get to be insightful, quite often. It is possible to focus on one character per episode and still give development to the other characters, the Voyager writers just don't seem capable of that type of multitasking. You're either the hero or the dunce, no inbetweens. Both Tom and Harry have been hurt by the hero/sidekick relationship. Janeway is also hurt by the "Janeway or Noway" attitude. It makes her too inaccessable and ridgid. Watching ER last night, the almost last scene has Carter rushing into Pedatrics where a patient he had been seeing for measles had crashed. The other doctors turned to him and asked if he had any suggestions on how to save this kid. He said no, and sadly shook his head. On Voyager it would have been Seven and she would have saved the day. They, at ER, don't have a problem with their heros not having the answers. I wish just once that Seven, or doc, or Janeway didn't have a clue what to do and sadly shook their heads in the end. That doesn't mean I don't like those characters, I just don't want them to be right all the time, to always have the answers. Shadda Re: Catch-22 for Janeway, Vic... Another reason why the episode didn't work for me, Mike. Damn, keep doing this and I won't even watch the repeat to see if there's anything I can enjoy about this episode! And, sadly, just another nail in the coffins of the writers whose tombstones are inscribed: "Here rests [insert name]. He never wrote a plot that was fully thought out." Mindy Wasn't ER great last night, Shadda? (nim) At least a few tears would be nice, Jason I have a few thoughts on what you wrote, Jason. Jason: I was thinking about warning beacons as Voyager escaped too, but would it be possible to adequately warn all or even most passing ships? I don't know the maximum range and abilities of warning beacons, I thought they were pretty powerful. But even a few posted would be better than none at all. And again, by doing that what happens to those IN the void. Jason: Perhaps the best they could do is send out beacons along their own flight path and ask the Alliance ships, who are heading in the opposite direction anyway, to do the same. Agreed, if that is the only way. Jason: But as for the others... United with the Alliance rejectee, General Valen probably has the means and certainly the strategy to get his own ship out, especially because they have the polaron emitter which seemed to be (tech) (tech) (tech) important to the whole scheme in the first place. My impression (and I may be wrong) was that Voyager itself was part of the key to escape. If General Valen had the means to escape after Voyager left, then all the more reason NOT to leave those musical aliens on his ship. Janeway's impression also must have been that Valen would remain in the void and the musical aliens would remain "Home" by being on his ship and the ships of others united with him. If Valen could escape than the musical aliens would not remain in their home after all. And were all the ships that remained in the void "united" with General Valen or were they just unwilling to join Janeway's alliance? I don't remember to be honest. I know a few sided with the general. And if they could get out without Janeway, why were they so desperate to stop her from escaping if they could follow? Jason: Warning/helping other Void inhabitants might have been unfeasible but would have been risky anyway-- hold out too long waiting for others and you lose too much power, leaving a reliance on either the old ways or the glimmer of hope that some new member might have the resources that were depleted while LOOKING for that new member in the first place. Sorry, I'm not sure I follow you here, but to help those in the void it seems to me they could send in some sort of drone with information on how Voyager managed to escape and possibly the needed equipment to help those stuck in there to escape too. After all, I'm petty sure there were (or at least would be) ships in the void that were not part of Janeway's alliance and also were not Janeway's enemies. Jason: Janeway did the best she possibly could under the circumstances. Well if your going to have an episode about how highly moral Janeway is...like showing her refusal to use a stolen device that would get them out, I would at least show at the end she planned to try and help those still stuck in the void. Otherwise it looks like Janeway's thinking is something like: "they didn't want to join my alliance or were kicked out, so let them stay there". Jason: Maybe leaving them behind was not what was best for them in the long term but they WANTED to stay there and the Prime Directive (something which funnily enough never seemed to be mentioned in the episode) would probably have looked down on Janeway making that decision for them. Janeway had no problem making a similar decision for Seven when Seven desperately wanted to stay with the Borg. Janeway knew Seven had to see what else life could be before Seven could make that decision clearly. And I doubt the prime directive would apply in this case with the void. When you come right down to it, these musical aliens in the void could only survive by hiding and using up the resources of other ships that were trapped there with them. They were little more than cute pirates or at least they were creatures that relied on pirates to get food for them. They didn't seem to earn it in any way. Jason: BTW, I'm surprised that these aliens seemed so unpopular. I was glad for once that the 'strange' in "Strange New Worlds" was put back into an episode and alien race. Maybe what bothered me about them was that they seemed to have no ambition to improve themselves, they were happy to scrounge off others to survive instead of standing on their own two feet (or was it four feet And just for the record, don't forget, I like Janeway too, most of the time. I just thought this ep was somewhat sloppy. Even after seven years and a few extra wrinkles Katie's still the finest looking woman to wear the uniform and walk the deck of a Starship. Mike (interesting discussion) Mindy wrote: The musical Fanotomes, or whatever the name of that "band" was (and I do mean the pun) became incredibly annoying after a while , besides the obviousness that they were going to help save the day...and it was hard for me to "get behind the music." Agreed! I just wrote something to Jason about that very thing. And BTW it beats me how they manage to mate and multiply...maybe they're born pregnant like the Tribbles Mindy:It also reminded me of THE TROUBLE WITH TRIBBLES...so-called "vermin" help save the day; they are beamed over to the enemy's ship; our guys find them cute and non-menacing. LOL, yeah that ending reminded me of the Tribbles being left behind on the enemy ships too. Howerver, the Tribbles were at least cute and cuddly to earn their food in some way Mike You're not alone, Mindy... and thanks for the compliment. BTW, I just reread your comments on the ep. and we seem to be in agreement on more than a few points. Mike Your love for Katie is the last thing I'd dispute, Mike! I guess I agree with you in general about a lot of these little points. Voyager could have sent out drones and warning beacons both in the Void and outside it to both warn of the Void and advise of a strategy to get out of it. I think that Janeway did what she could in terms of helping her own brood and those around her. Looking for other aliens to bring with her would have meant that she would have depleted more supplies waiting for another chance and risk not getting out at all, even with the help of others. But, the episode didn't seem to have time to bring up a lot more issues I find more relevent and interesting from the perspective of the main story, so I can easily excuse THE VOID not dealing with all the housekeeping questions like whether or not beacons were deployed. Another point. You said: Janeway had no problem making a similar decision for Seven when Seven desperately wanted to stay with the Borg. Janeway knew Seven had to see what else life could be before Seven could make that decision clearly. And I doubt the prime directive would apply in this case with the void. The main difference I see is that Seven's decision was not informed nor made in what we might consider mental health. Seven of Nine was firstly brainwashed and secondly, human anyway, so Janeway had a position/responsibility in making that decision for her, at least as far as Trek values typically go. Making a decision about the "cute pirates" (I like that!) would have been risky. The crew, and even the Doctor only had a small understanding of their biology and their habits. Taking them away might not necessarily have been best for them... who knows? About that music scene. I thought it was awful too! But I don't blame Mulgrew for her blustery reaction to it. The script probably read something like "Janeway walks in to the Sickbay to hear a beautiful symphony of tones". When the scene was filmed, they might not have even had the "music" playing at the time. Mulgrew might have reacted as the script called for it, not realizing that the end product would be that, uh, underwhelming, assuming they looped the "music" into the scene later, leaving the actors in the dark as to what that "symphony" might sound like in the final product. Jason One thing I'd note. B'Elanna has been seen enjoying the holodecks on a few occasions, but usually she uses them solo. I think that when she was seen in the Beach Resort, she was on her way to go swimming or snorkeling, or some activity along those lines. At least until she found a holo-stud willing to follow her around and carry her sandals for her. If you count her holographic activities in "Extreme Risk" it would seem to suggest that she uses them for personal athletic recreation and not for developing interpersonal relationships, either with holograms or with her fellow crewmembers. B'Elanna was a bit of a holo-grinch in the fifth and sixth seasons, but only because the people around her gave too much importance to the projections around them. Even in the case of the Doctor, up until recently she had always considered him to be little more than a hologram. As recently as "Latent Image" she talked of him as being more of a program than a person. Jason About Tribbles and the Void aliens Mindy:It also reminded me of THE TROUBLE WITH TRIBBLES...so-called "vermin" help save the day; they are beamed over to the enemy's ship; our guys find them cute and non-menacing. Mike:LOL, yeah that ending reminded me of the Tribbles being left behind on the enemy ships too. Howerver, the Tribbles were at least cute and cuddly to earn their food in some way You two bring up something that I find troubling. I loved "Trouble with Tribbles" as a kid until someone pointed out to me that the Tribbles, having been beamed onto a Klingon ship, would have been hunted down and killed by the Klingons who hated them so much. When Scotty said something about giving the Tribbles a "good home," it was not true. It probably would have been kinder to beam them into space...it would have been a less painful death. As to the Void aliens: unlike Tribbles, they were able to make decisions using all the facts and, however they came to live in the Void, clearly felt at home there. And..I did like them. They were different...not another alien race speaking perfect English. I especially liked how, with all of Janeway's highminded ideals, what *really* saved the members of the alliance was the simple, everyday kindnesses and consideration shown to the Void aliens by Doc, Seven, and others. Fabulous Thanks MEG, I'll check them out. (nim) Re: THE VOID...So what? Today, while driving to work, I suddenly realized what bothered me about this episode. When Janeway gave her speech about not stealing the food it got me thinking about "Les Miz". It also got me thinking about all the people in this world who live hand to mouth and don't have the luxury of principles. Janeway reminded me of, okay, I'm going to massacre the spelling of this name, Javier. Poor, (another misspellling coming up) Jon ValJon, steals a loaf of bread and his life becomes a living hell. The highly principled obsessed Javier never gives him a moments rest. Suddenly, Janeway was Javier and Chakotay and Tuvok were Jon Valjon willing to compromise their principles to save their people. The interesting question would have been where would they have drawn the line. If Voyager had been without food for at least a week and a half, if several crewmembers had already died of starvation, if she were standing over Naomi's bed as she was gasping her last breath, then made that decision, well that would be different. With a weeks worth of food left, she had a lifetime to find more, or, get out of Dodge, which she fully expected to have done by the end of that week. She had hope. Her back was not up against the wall. She had the luxury of principles. I want to see her make that decision when all around her are dying. Now, that would have been a great show. And you know, that guy falling on the floor with Neelix apparently got several people. With the klaxons going it never occurred to me Tom would have stayed in the messhall instead of going to the bridge. Maybe the extra is related to McNeill, but I don't believe he has any brothers. Shadda So when Eric rags on Janeway, does that make you like Kes less? Paris as a character doesn't do much for me, even before P/T. You what I liked about early Paris was that 1) he didn't take himself seriously, 2) although he was a great pilot, he wasn't this superhuman/gifted officer. Those things made him realistic to me. I also thought that he had a great arc of redemption to carry through the series. Since P/T, though, I don't like what Paris has evolved into. To me he was overbearing, often extremely juvenile and insensitive. Begonia essentially feels that B'Elanna is the insensitive and uncaring partner. It doesn't make me hate Tom more. It just shows me that Beogonia and I have extremely different views on gender roles in relationships. I don't like P/T because it is an extremely cliched, dysfunctional relationship and written incredibly sexist and unimaginative manner. I'm watching Farscape now. Aeryn and John is an interesting relationship and Aeryn wasn't toned down or make weaker like B'Elanna was for Tom or Seven with Axum. I would expect Aeryn to kick butt even if she was pregnant and to defend herself, but would never question John's loyalty or love for her because of it. Tom and B'Elanna need a similar relationship. B'Elanna is half-Klingon making her stronger and more naturally aggressive than Tom. Let me shock the bejeesus outta you... The fanfic that I currently enjoy the most is B'Elanna/Seven slash when Seven is not written as a Klingon. The VOY novels that I have enjoyed the most are Double Heelix and the Dark Passions (although I only read those scenes involving Troi, WOrf and B'Elanna. Of course if one considers the logical end of B'Elanna and Seven's friendship, you have to conclude that Seven will betray and kill B'Elanna to keep Seven's misdeeds quiet -- Only speculation). Actually in many of my posts I lament the fact the Seven is not a unique character but instead is a frostier version of B'Elanna and that B'Elanna was gutted and so was canno to enable Seven could take over B'Elanna's issues, storylines, strengthens and her relationships. Re: B'Elanna has no close friends. Actually, she has had them on Voyager. In season 1, she had a friend that could make her laugh, could conspire with her, could tease the bejezus out of Harry... and in the end could stab her in the back and strand her on a primitive planet without even a match to help her survive. Dang that SESKA! I agree with the poster who spoke of B'Elanna as a very private person, one who is the devil herself at allowing people to "get to know her"... and yet they do exist. She has Chakotay, a Comrade that plays hoverball with her on the holodeck, goes to Tsunkatse matches with her on shore leave, who comes to her when he's troubled by Voyager conspiracies, who forces her to face at "Extreme" risk, her own personal demons, not to mention is the first person brave enough to confront her with congratulations about her impending bundle of joy. Although we may not have "seen" much of their shared confidences over the last 6+ years, we know that she still sees him as an integral part of her life. It was Chakotay that came to her in the "naje" with the Klingon artifact that tugged at her psyche... it was Chakotay that came to help her understand her "mother's" role in the visions she saw in the naje... it was to Chakotay's bedside that she flew when he was disembodied in Cathexis and it was in his defense that she braved Janeway's wrath in "Manuevers". But Chakotay is now the Commander on a "StarFleet" vessel, not just the commander of a ragtag band of rebels... and so some distance is bound to creep into this relationship. And that's why I love.... .... .... Harry! Surprised? Harry and she bonded in the most wonderful way in Caretaker... and I thank TPTB that they've allowed that bond to continue... "unsullied" by the T/K brigade. "Come on "Starfleet"... I know a few tricks "Sneezy" didn't teach in survival class."
She and Harry have had a very lowkeyed and yet personal relationship... sharing life and death in Caretaker... sharing confidences in "Eye of the Needle". Was that the only time B'Elanna ever shared anything about her Mother... until BOTD? Every time I watch her rant about "Tom's" UNREALISTIC description of her in "Displaced"... I love Harry's look and her comment... "Then why do you look like you fear for your life?" (Harry & B'Elanna's friendship in miniature... Is it hard to ride a tiger? No... its just hard to get off...safely!) And 2 seasons later we still see her confiding in him. Go ask "Alice"... I think she knows, why. She's tender over him in "Eye of the Needle", and especially so in "Hunters" when she brings him his letter (After she razzed him about Seven!)... and because "I" think she loves him like a Little brother... I roared HURRAH when she embraced him like the proverbial long lost family member at the end of "Muse". But even little brothers have their limits... we can't let them see their big sisters "cry" too much... "doubt" themselves too much... and that's why I love.... .... .... Neelix! (And you thought I was going to mention a blue-eyed guy! Didn't you!) Neelix... who pours her coffee until the middle of the night... and knows when to cut her off and send her "TO BED"! Who offers to let her vent her spleen whenever she can't take it anymore... and later makes her banana pancakes just because he wants to see her smile. Who listens to her when she's within a nanosecond of a personal corebreach on a garbage scow... cause he knows which juggernaut is the most important one to defuse FIRST! And who reminds her that it was HONOR that allowed her to first speak of her love for Tom... and therefore whatever she decided to do about their relationship...end it or not. Honor still had to be satisfied. Honor. Mentor. How could I ever get through this without mentioning her name. "You're not the same person anymore!" "If that's so... I take that as a compliment, Seska." Is Janeway her friend? Her confidant? Her mentor? No. Janeway is her CAPTAIN... and if I may quote from a (shudder... look away Seven haters, or your eyeballs may melt) J-7 scene from "Hope & Fear"... "I'm your Captain... that means I can't always be your friend." Does Janeway TRUST B'Elanna? Of that I have no doubt. Does Janeway HONOR B'Elanna? Is Mulgrew a Democrat? Does Janeway LOVE B'Elanna? No more... No less... Than B'Elanna loves her. Janeway risked B'Elanna's never ending enmity to keep her alive... And B'Elanna risked the Phage... and assimilation to do the same thing for her Captain. But still... she "is" the Captain... and thats why... sniff... honk... I utterly adore... Tom. Tom. The guy she first confided in, about her childhood traumas... and her fears at what being "all human" might mean... The guy she confided in, about her betrayal of her rebel commander over the dreadnaught torpedo... The guy who was willing to take a SHUTTLE against a robotic adversary that had just kicked VOY's butt to rescue her... The guy who withstood her attacks during her depression and although he was confused... he did NOT run away... The guy who programmed a day of honor ceremony for her, who programmed a movie theater for her...who makes dinner when he gets home first, who offers to learn Klingon and study the ancient scrolls for her... But most importantly... a guy who in the end...didn't let her get away with anything when the targ spoor finally hit the fan. B'Elanna has no close friend's? Just don't tell that to Chakotay... or Harry... or Neelix... or Tom. D47 (Well, Shadda..you know what they say, resolutions were made to be broken. Janeway in the Void analogies Even Ransom's Equinox is not a good analogy. Ransom could have settled on that planet, and lived a long and fruitful life with the remainder of his crew. Instead, he enslaved and murdered sentient beings to feed his gas hog of a vehicle. Janeway was faced with the decision... steal another man's food just so she could survive. Kind of like what happened to Kim and Tom in that prison in "Chute". How does it benefit a man, to save his life at the cost of his soul? I really don't understand AT ALL the rant against "Janeway or Noway" on the issue of food theft and building alliances. Isn't Janeway doing Precisely what people WANT her to do? Ask for help? Listen to others? Pool knowledge in order to find a way OUT of this he!!hole? Pooling that knowledge tripled the efficiency of the food replicators... so instead of assailing each new ship for food, they could feed themselves...and their comrades. Isn't that the point of this show? We need to look beyond our borders to survive? So... Janeway was quicker on the uptake and realized that they needed the PEOPLE on the other ships more than the deutrium in the storage tanks. Why is that wrong? D47 Maybe he was his stunt double/lighting standin? I wondered "too" when I saw him fall, but realized he was bigger than RDM when he stood back up. Well, and the haircut was too far off! D47 Re: Pardon me?? I've never said B'Elanna was insensitive and uncaring. (At least, I hope I've never used those words outside a precisely defined context). I think P/T is a dysfunctional relationship. But I don't think it's a dysfunctional relationship because Tom is a saint and B'Elanna is a devil, which is what you seem to think I think. I just think that they are too different in the ways that really matter to ever get along. And that trying to adapt to each other is damaging both of them. And if I defend Tom more than B'Elanna, it's because I see him attacked more than B'Elanna, for things I don't think he needs to be attacked for. What I think about B'Elanna, for the record, is that she has very little sense of humour, or sense of the absurd. That's it. That's the only thing I actually think is *wrong* with her. But it's a killer when it comes to that particular relationship, because I think that it's something that Tom *needs* in a partner. Without it, a relationship would just smother a personality type like Tom's. As to how he treats her, well, as Jim (Delta Blues) says, this is a typical Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus situation. Tom takes what she says at face value, and she reads things that aren't there into what he says. That doesn't mean either of them are at fault, and it certainly doesn't automatically make one right and one wrong, one bad and one good, whichever way round someone might perceive it to be. There is fault on both sides, but to say that Tom is an insentitive cad who treats her badly just doesn't bear out the history of this relationship over the seven years of the show. It also sets up an expectation for the roles in the relationship that I think is unrealistic. Uber-feminists seem to think that the pendulum should have swung completely the other way and that men should now spend their lives in selfless service, compensating for the thousands of prior generations of male dominance and inequality. Don't get me wrong; I am feminist, I expect to be treated in the workplace according to my skills, not my gender. I expect men to respect women. But I also expect women to respect men. Respect is acknowledging individuality, opinions, freedom of choice. It shouldn't be about whether someone is male or female, it should be acknowledging that someone is another person, another individual separate from yourself, and not your property. And as to what I think about "gender roles" in a relationship, how on earth do you know what I think, Pixie? You seem to be saying that I like Tom because he's a typical 'male' (pardon to the guys on the list, no offence intended) by ignoring her and going off with his buddies. We never see B'Elanna going off with her buddies, but that's not Tom's fault, and people seem eager to make it his fault. The reason I like Tom in the first place is because I see *very* feminine elements to his personality - it's just that trying to shoehorn him together with B'Elanna seems to be trying to push them both into fulfilling stereotypical gender roles, which in my opinion neither of them are suited to. This just seems to be a difference in perceptions about the way people present themselves. To you, as you've just said, Tom's mannerisms come across as overbearing and juvenile. What I see is something completely different, and probably stems from differences in 'life experience' between the two of us. Let me try to explain. I'll have to give a bit of background, so bear with me. I went to school in a private country school in England (and feel very privileged to have been able to do so, because my family's not wealthy or upper class or anything - and I can't deny I got a good education out of it!). Many of the people I went to school with were, however, from very privileged families, including members of the British aristocracy. We didn't treat them any differently, but it's interesting to note that they had exactly these mannerisms, and I think that if you are born to 'generational privilege', it's something you grow up with, something you absorb unconsciously without even being aware of it. Now these people (most of them anyway) didn't think themselves better than anyone else, but they did have the same kind of body language that Tom has on the show; they walked tall and looked directly at people, they were poised and elegant and I can quite believe that somebody who didn't know them would think them quite unbearable. But my point is, this wasn't something they did deliberately, it was body language they had absorbed from their families. To me, this fits very well with Tom's background as the son of an Admiral, one of the privileged elite in Starfleet. I don't know if Robbie's even thought about his portrayal in those terms or if he was possibly cast in the part because he had the same kind of body language, but to me that's what his mannerisms say. In the 24th century, we are led to believe that there are no hereditary aristocrats left like those in the European royal families, but people like the Parises might well end up being a kind of substitute. Throughout history, people have looked for other people to provide a kind of fantasy of something they don't have. It's ingrained in our makeup, otherwise, soap operas wouldn't be as wildly popular as they are; otherwise how does anyone explain the sheer hysteria that resulted over the death of Diana three years ago? I see Tom as someone who was brought up in the public eye, always having to be poised and careful not to sully the family name -until the worst happened, something snapped and he went completely the other way, and literally wallowed in the noiteriety it gave him. As to his being juvenille, I think that a lot of people believe that when you grow up, you have to stop enjoying yourself on a certain level, and this saddens me. As any psychologist will probably tell you, retaining childlike elements - the ability to feel a sense of wonder in the world, the ability to have fun unselfconsciously - are actually very important elements of being a balanced individual, and most of us achieve that naturally to some extent without even being aware of it. But I have never seen any evidence that Tom is and more "juvenille" than any other well balanced adult. He has the ability to separate work and leisure, which most of them don't seem to - most of them don't seem to be able to exhibit different personality traits on and off duty, which I must say seems two dimensional and unrealistic. So he turns holographic women into holographic cows! For heaven's sake, what is childish about that? I wish I had a holodeck, I'd do that sort of thing all the time, it would be wonderful! Tom uses the holodeck to *play*. He also uses the holdeck to provide an environment where other people can play. Tom introduced yoyos and 'total insanity' (that box in 'think tank') onto the ship. He perpetuates rumours and gossip. These are very necessary social functions, particularly in a closed group like Voyager. They are not harmful activities, they enable the crew to let off steam and relieve stress. For seven years, Tom has been doing the kind of social engineering on board that would have been a counsellor's function, if they had had one. It doesn't mean he needs to grow up. For the record, I like both characters. I don't think they fit together, and I think the powers that be made a serious mistake trying to fit them together. I think that making a couple out of them has stopped cold any further development of either of them as individuals, and I think that the opportunities to develop both characters which have actually been taken over the years have more often than not been badly executed and resulted in many other missed opportunities. Just one final point - if Aeryn did 'kick butt' when she was pregnant and lost the baby as a result, how do you think she'd feel about that? It's a medical fact of life that a woman and a foetus, existing as a closed system, are much more vulnerable to physical damage than a woman alone. What is the point of taking stupid risks with two lives, particularly when one of them represents your genetic investment for the future? If you've got someone who will stand in front of you and take a bashing for you, let them do it! If they're the father, it's their investment too. They won't think any the less of you for it! Now, this is uncanny! I finished the second "Dark Passions" book last night. As I closed it, I wondered: "What would Pixie think of that story?" Well, now I ALMOST know. (I say "almost" because reading only some of the scenes means you didn't experience the entire two-volume tale.) Yes, I'm surprised (although it would take a bit more to shock me these days). I would have predicted that you'd hate it because Agent Seven of Nine is at center stage so much of the time. What impressed me was Susan Wright's deftness in handling that character's development, BTW. I want a third volume! One that centers on the AU Janeway, please! It's not wrong at all, Deb. I felt a little uncomfortable, to be brutally honest, because I wondered whether I would have the guts to live out my beliefs that way in the face of death - not just for myself, but for people counting on me to lead them. Although B'Ellana has always had a lot of affection for Harry, too. NIM Deb, some resolutions should be broken I loved your comments and agree with everything you said. Please, break your resolution more often. Or is that Anti-Resolutions? Shadda Wow, that was lovely Begonia You really did nail all of the reasons I like the Paris character so much. One of the things I also like about him is his hard edge, when it's necessary. We don't see it much now but it is there and is essential to his character. His ability to cut through the "crap" and get to the core. His ability to see through the Annoraxes of the universe. I wish we could see more of that. Shadda Re: "Anti-Resolutions"? Makes me sound like an Anti-J/Cer... and we know THAT ain't so!
You know... I was thinking of this "TPTB can't write good female/female friendship stuff" on Voy... and I think I have to disagree to some extent. (Bear with me here...) There seemed to only be 2 great friendships ON the three seasons of TOS. That between Captain Kirk... and McCoy... the only man on board who had the authority to relieve him of his command, And between Captain Kirk and his 1st officer... Commander Spock. The only other person on board who was not only smarter and stronger than he... but who was a "heart beat" away from Command of the only thing Kirk loved more than life itself. The Enterprise. Sure... he respected Scotty, lusted after (?) Yo-man Rand, teased Mr Chekov, kissed Lt Uhura, liked Mr Sulu... but none of them were his "friends". It was always McCoy... and Spock. And after 3 years and 2 movies, it was clear that the friendship did not just stop with Kirk, but that McCoy and Spock had themselves formed a bond. ("Remember.") Now on Voyager... for all it's heavy emphasis on the distaff side on Starfleet... the women are separated from one another by rank and position. If we look at the TOS model, then we would expect Janeway to bond only with the EMH and Chakotay... (Yes, Shadda I AM typing this with a straight face... as you and I know I speak of "bond" in the platonic sense) Of course, on Voy... this wouldn't work cause the Doc was a computer program. But not to worry, there is one other on board who knows her as well as McCoy knew Kirk... and his name is Tuvok. Over the years before coming to Voyager, Janeway had developed this friendship... and over the years since coming to Voyager she's developed one other... with Chakotay. Would I like her to have others? Duh! But would it be "appropriate"? Remember that line from season 1... "As a starship Captain, we've been taught to keep a certain distance..." There's a reason for that distance. It doesn't mean she can't love and respect her crew... but that as "Captain" she has to keep part of her away from them... just as B'Elanna keeps part of herself away from "lil-Brother" Harry. Does that mean she's loved any less by her crew? Was Kirk? But it does mean she is missing out on "more" than just a "love interest" these last 4 years... Yup... 4 years. Because, as Eric would be the first to point out, she once did have a female on board to talk to... A sounding board with a different point of view from the male cohort at her side. Kes. The very FEW conversations they had over the years, stand out for me like a beacon... whether it was Kes pulling at her to acknowledge her medical computer program as something MORE than a datastream... or sharing their mutual grief over the Loss of Tuvok and Neelix... or commiserating with her over pulling allnighters and exploring new "horizons"... Few though they were... they were an outlet. Then she was gone... and replaced with a person that not only could NOT "give" Janeway peace... but with someone that would give her unmitigated he!! for nearly 26 episodes. Sure... on this voyage of the d@mned... there was one other female on board... but how could Janeway reach out to her? A rebel who was being forced into a Starfleet uniform by her Maquis Commander... who's problems with starfleet and discipline, and who's own NEEDS were OBVIOUS to this Captain by episode 2... (You had more friends at the Academy than you knew. Some professors like students who challenge them... and so do some Captains.) A woman in need of challenging, of gentling, of seasoning. Needs Janeway had to satisfy, not usurp. Heck... given how easy it was for a trusted, logical friend to betray her in hopes of easing her burden... Janeway had to be even MORE careful about trying to satisfy her needs through this crew... and she became even more isolated because of it. Female-female interactions on Voyager? They've done them well where appropriate... Between Seska and B'Elanna... between Kes and Janeway... between Janeway and the female guide in "Sacred Ground"... But whenever it was between Janeway and Wildman... or Celest... or the female security guards/conn officers... there "was" no female-female interactions. There was only the Captain... and her crew. Just like between Kirk and his crew... male or female. D47 Re: how the heck could they call that void "Home"? Isn't this the same question everyone had about the light sensitive aliens in "Night"? Trek writers periodically dream up habitats that are implausible even within science fiction norms. Re: Maybe he was his stunt double/lighting standin? That was my guess, too, Deb, after Terry pointed out that Tom would have gone to the bridge when the klaxon sounded. Mindy Yeeessss... but by that definition... "How could Chakotay and his Maquis friends call their colony world "home". For reasons we don't know... these guys "feel" at home in the void. To each his own. I wonder. If Janeway had over-ridden their desires, and forced the musical aliens to come with her "for their own good"... would there be a hue and cry over "Janeway or noway" again? D47 I gave it a shot. . . . . .and ummmm. . . Well, I'm not sure. I just really wasn't interested. Didn't grab me, didn't engross me, barely even registered. Just kind of -- mediocre. Shadda was right that "The Void" fared badly in comparison to The West Wing episodes of this week and last. And it was almost impossible not to make comparisons, given that both episodes dealt with moral and ethical dilemmas. TWW presented theirs as a choice between bad alternatives, and their characters really struggled with the decisions that had to be made. Voyager never seemed threatened by any choice worse than who had to eat which leftovers, and there were no decisions at all -- just one right way, and of course that's what we'll do. It came off as flat as whatever that was Neelix served to B'Elanna for dinner. Speaking of flat, I absolutely cringed at the dialogue in the scene between Janeway, Chakotay, and Tuvok during which they make a half-hearted attempt to bring up the opportunistic approach. I know several people objected to Janeway's moralizing, but I never got past shuddering at the dreadful, amateurish writing. Memo to the writers: in real-life conversations, one person's remarks do not conveniently set up what the next person is going to say, line by line by line. Yech! Bad! Really, really, really bad!! And on a couple of lighter notes, as it were The mute aliens and their musical punch-pads reminded me of nothing so much as those electronic "Simon Says" games, where you are supposed to punch out the exact same series of tones the gameboard plays. Janeway may have gotten a sense of wonder out of it -- me, I got a giggle. And my favorite line of the episode was Tom's comment, "Who says there's no such thing as gremlins in the engines?" At which point there flashed through my mind the very young William Shatner, at his over-emoting zenith, in that old episode of Twilight Zone. Ahhh, homage to the master. It's a beautiful thing. MEG Re: Pardon me?? Looks like I misunderstood your feelings regarding B'Elanna. I thought your views on not supporting Tom's holoaddiction in Spirit Folks and her acts in Memorial were representative of your views overall of the character. I don't think Tom is the devil or B'Elanna is a saint. I think that he has been a neglectful boyfriend but has been a better husband (but it's a case of too little too late). I'm not just talking about Drive, but about Vis-a-Vis, Alice (what kind of guy name his ship after an ex-flame), and Memorial. Let's see, in the last couple seasons, B'Elanna has found herself coming second to Tom's interest in: a Camaro, a homicidal shuttlecraft, an old *television*, and now an Irish village Honestly, I don't consider myself a Uber-feminist or having unrealistic expectations. Both partners should treat each other with respect and seen at least interested in their partner, instead of running off to be with their buds or being sucked into their latest hobby. I'm not saying that you can't have a life outside your partner, but there needs to be affection and attention in a relationship. Otherwise all you have is two people who have sex and that's it. My views on P/T are not colored by past inequality or dominance. While I agree with the following: [i]Respect is acknowledging individuality, opinions, freedom of choice. It shouldn't be about whether someone is male or female, it should be acknowledging that someone is another person, another individual separate from yourself, and not your property. [/i] That's true even dealing with strangers. In a relationship, there needs to affection and attention to each party. With regard to gender roles, I did assume that because you have defended Tom's behavior that said something about your views on gender roles in relationship. That was my mistake. I am sorry. I can't but feel that P/T is written into a 1950s relationship. I blame the writers and their favoritism for B'Elanna no longer pursuing relationships with other characters on screen. I also went to very prestigious schools, know extremely wealthy individuals (new and old money) and it's not Tom's bearing that bothers me. I don't think that Tom carries himself in a particularly regal manner. He seems to like to be the one in control and that's what bugs me. As for Tom's immaturity, it's not about his humor. It's the way he treats others with little respect, like Tuvok, Harry and B'Elanna. He leaves half-eaten pizza in B'Elanna quarters. He too willing to forget about his commitments with B'Elanna to pursue his latest hobby, that's not mature or healthy. Both Harry and Tom have shown little respect to Tuvok. Yes, everyone should enjoy life, not take themselves too seriously and have some fun time. Early Tom did seem to enjoy life, have fun, and not take himself too seriously. Now Tom seems like a overgrown little boy. In a relationship that gets old real fast. If one partner is always the child that forces the other partner to always be the adult and never have fun. My point with Aeryn and Crichton, and Tom and B'Elanna is that in the former Aeryn's physical alien nature is taken into account in the relationship. In P/T, B'Elanna is not allowed to exert her stronger physique. She should have a longer life, hieghten sense of smell and hearing and possibly night vision (given the darkness or your typical Bird of Prey). B'Elanna in both Killing Game and Prophesy was above being baited, but Tom (the weaker and more level-headed one)isn't. Tom shouldn't fight against a Klingon in a bat'leth duel anymore than he should enter a cage with a agitated tiger. Re: Pardon me?? Well, we'll just have to agree to disagree, since I do disagree with virtually every point you make to illustrate Tom's childishness, his wilful neglect, and his lack of respect. I don't see any of those things, I never have, and you're never going to persuade me otherwise any more than I'm going to persuade you. All I see is a mannerism of a type of personality that I've seen on a dozen different tv shows with a dozen different characters, none of which have attracted the same types of criticism. I've never understood it, and I never will. Amazing Void Reactions I'm so surprised at the reactions "The Void" inspired! People here, generally positive about Voyager episodes, reacted more negatively than they did towards the mediocre "Repentance". Traditional critics of Voyager (i.e. the Cynic, the folks at Section31 and Trekweb) absolutely loved it. see this Steve Krutzler post: http://talk.trekweb.com/cgi-bin/msgboard.pl?bid=FldwoPP0qETo2&cid=lt1DgV3r8Aq9g&tid=jALtV9DqNp0FU&parent=0&target=lt1DgV3r8Aq9g&sort=Newest%20Posts%20First&view=Nested%20Posts&date=Last%2015%20Days#lt1DgV3r8Aq9g What do you think is the reason for this wide discrepancy of opinion? Why did Voyager supporters hate it and Voyager bashers love it? Re: Amazing Void Reactions *emerges from lurkdom and peeks around* **SPOILERS** Well, I love Voyager, and I think "The Void" was great. Plenty of meaty scenes, good acting, and lots and lots of Janeway! More to the point, it worked because it was one of the episodes that encapsulates what Voyager's all about - what it's really all about. Just as "Shattered" sought to represent "The Journey" - what Voyager was, what it is, and what it will become, "The Void" works as the Delta Quadrant in miniature. In both cases, the message is about working together to overcome the odds, just as the crew have struggled these past six and a half years. And I think "The Void" deserves praise for that. I was beginning to lose faith in Ken Biller until this episode came around - "Repentance" I felt was awful, and "Prophecy" wasn't much better, but "The Void" really hit the nail on the head. For those of you who are continuity fans, as I am, take a look at this speech of Janeway's from "Alliances": "In a part of space where there are few rules, it's more important than ever that we hold fast to our own. In a region where shifting allegiances are commonplace, we have to have something stable to rely on . And we do: the principles and ideals of the Federation. As far as I'm concerned, those are the best allies we could have." Sound familiar? Five years on, those principles are still getting the crew through the tough times. Working together. Why else did Janeway spend much of Seasons 1 and 2 trying to make friends and scatter the rumours that the Kazon spread about them? Why else did Janeway form the alliance in "Year of Hell"? How have the crew been able to trade for parts and supplies all these years? And why did Janeway *not* support Ransom in "Equinox"? Because they stuck to their principles. Even when Janeway broke the Prime Directive and gave holodeck technology to the Hirogen (and didn't that go wrong bigtime?), she did it out of a sense of collaboration - of community, and peace. That's why "The Void" worked so well. It's a traditional Trekkian message, delivered in the context of Voyager's plight. So, to answer the question - I don't think lines between Voyager supporters and those "less enthusiastic" can be so easily drawn. There's always going to be overlap. Hi Caillan! Welcome! Always nice to see someone else pop out of lurkdom, for a bit or for a stay. Expect that normal barrage or questions...Oh heck, I'll start it. 1. Coffee, Tea. or Diet Coke? 2. Favorite Janeway hairdo? 3. Color of Tom's eyes? 4. (Bonus Question, because it's 5:30am) [Generally or definitely] Favorite Season? BTW, great spot from Alliance! I thought Janeway was sounding familiar there--or at least was being quite in character. That's why "The Void" worked so well. It's a traditional Trekkian message, delivered in the context of Voyager's plight.
Re: Hi Caillan! Welcome! Thanks, D'Alaire! 1. Coffee. Black. (As if it would be anything else...) 2. The Page Boy rules. "Year of Hell," "Concerning Flight," "Waking Moments"...it's the best! 3. Blue. 4. Three. Or Four. Both. And I thought this Monday wasn't going well. Black coffee and BLUUUUUUUUUEEEEEE!!! YES! And #3 or 4. I do prefer the French twist bun, but Kate's hair of late has been quite pretty. Okay, back to work. Yeah, I'm one of "those" today. Ah well. The coffee's free here. Re: The Void and The Hair This was my first chance to read peoples' reactions to a show before I'd seen it. I, too, was surprised by the negativity. I liked it. It was classic trek. The aliens were creatively done. And from what people said, I expected Her to jump on the conference table and beat Her chest about cooperation. Instead I found something more low-key and her views were challenged a couple times during the episode. I DO agree that they should have gotten scruffier and Her hair shouldn't have been so tidy there at the end. This should have been a two-parter. malcom An Appearance by the awesome Caillan! Welcome to the Nebula, dear Caillan! It's a great place to hang out, full of the nicest and wittiest and smartest VOYaholics in the universe. how've you been...and how are you managing to watch first run VOY in Australia? Good on you! david g Re: Amazing Void Reactions I finally got to watch "The Void" Saturday (since it was preempted for basketball in Washington last Wednesday), and I liked it. | ||
![[The Voyager Crew]](../images/voyager_crew.jpg)
Chak and Tuvok had REAL concerns but thanks to the script they were made out to be fools.
Do you think Matel could give Seven a little outfit for each of her jobs? Seriously, Seven was everywhere in this episode.
Can't agree with you more (mini rant ahead)
What? What?? What???
