The Coffee Nebula Board is for the discussion of Star Trek: Voyager and other sci-fi/cult shows. This is its Archive of episode discussions, top ten lists, fan fiction, and other miscellaneous musings.
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"Who would have thought that this eclectic group of voyagers could actually become a family. Starfleet, Maquis, Klingon, Talaxian, hologram, Borg... even Mr Paris." |
ProphecySilly and surprisingly lightweight fun This wasn't an especially resonant or stirring episode, but it had me chuckling and kept me entertained. the actual nature of these Klingns seemed oddly undefined. i was expecting versions of the TOS Klingons but from the movies; instead, we got very DS9ey Klingons, which is ok but not what i was expecting...they seemed, for all the gruff grunting, too eager to accept Voyager as home. also, B'Elanna didnt seem as intensely affected by them as id hoped; she was more put out by One or the Malon. still, i was happy to see her visibly affected by reciting the prayer to honor the dead to the point that she joined in. i enjoyed the Neelix-Klingon sex fiend lady stuff, and overall the ep was enjoyable and lively...Tuvok and Neelix had good scenes, and i loved Janeway and Paris dispatching Klingons on the bridge. i enjoyed this ep but it was hardly riveting or intense...still, a fun hour. david g I'm too tired to go into too much detail right now, but I did enjoy this show. The head Klingon guy was very charismatic, and I *know* his voice -- does anyone know what other shows he's been on? Tom and B'Elanna decorating the nursery was a great scene, nice to see those moments between them. The rabble-rousing Klingon was a pain in the butt, and if I'd been B'Elanna, upon learning that both I and my child had been infected with a virus, I'd have ripped him to pieces with my bare hands, used his bones as tinder, charbroiled his flesh over a roaring fire, and eaten him with a nice barbeque sauce. I am *very* glad that the retro-virus was defeated -- that would have been too mean for words otherwise. Harry hiding from the amorous Klingon lady was very funny, and I loved seeing Neelix bunking with Tuvok. While I admit he *did* take advantage of his friend's hospitality with the Klingon woman (who obviously enjoyed throwing heavy furntiture), I smiled at Tuvok's line : As much as I enjoy your company... A Riddles reference! Yaaaay! I do enjoy the odd couple in their scenes together. Shame upon Neelix for trashing Tuvok's quarters, though -- he'll need to make some extra-nice Vulcan foods for Tuvok in penance, and resist the urge to spice them up for his tastes. AC, who has the oddest urge for a leola root casserole at the moment... Hmmm, No time for a long song of praise... I just NEED to know ONE thing. If Tuvok was the ONLY one "not paired up" with a bunkmate... WHO did Janeway AND Chakotay "get" to bunk with???????????????????????????
D47 (J/Cer, extraordinaire!) (Continuity alert... also loved the Doc "giving" Harry "permission" to mate with another species... "But he has to get the Captain's permission TOO!" Shades of season 5's "Disease"? I liked this one, too... ...except that like David, I kept getting the feeling that something was missing. Though I knew the easy things I furrowed my brow at, I had to think about it in general. It didn't come to me until this morning. It wasn't the content: I'd been looking forward to this ep, and I did enjoy it throughout. There were wonderful character moments for everyone (except poor Chuckles, commander of Klingon pancake, and Seven, who got her time last week and was nicely out of the way). Janeway was fabulous, Tuvok looked like he was going to turn in a Volcano--just pop from the top and start frothing (wonderful to see the "Mr. Vulcan" skit again). Harry, Neelix and the Klingon Horny-Toad (A Human, a Vulcan and a Talaxian walked into a bar...)--oh my! I cannot say how hard I laughed, except to note that my dog ran into the bedroom. I could not have been any crueller her Harry--so of course I treasured every second. And when Neelix started growling and grinning--ROFLOL! Priceless! They need more Neelix scenes like that. Tom: I was so impressed that they didn't ignore that he indeed was the father, and showed his protectiveness and defense of both his child and his wife. He was there, for his family. This was an important thing to reinforce, IMO. Whoever wrote this (I forget off hand) was very particular about his/her treatment of both T&B as husband and wife, in fact. I of course loved this. Very nicely done, and naturally performed. T&B continue to shine as a real married couple, which I appreciate more than I can say. B'Elanna: Like David again, I expected there would be more to her "coming to terms," though what we got was subtle and nicely performed. From site-to-site transporting to her quarters (and I really liked the talk between her and Tom there--all their talks, really), to telling tales in the messhall (snort!--though I really liked that outfit on her), and remembering the Klingon prayer when honoring her grandmother was exceptional. A beautiful moment. That and the final scene, T&B talking over the cradle, were probably my favorites, because they were so gentle and real, said a lot in not so many words. So, the main characters and dialogue were on--very nicely done all around, IMO. But again, something just wasn't there. It wasn't just the Klingons, who were strangely sedate to my eye. Not that I expected them to trash the ship, and though I understood they were from a certain "sect" and thus could have been different from the start, but I expected...something else, somehow. One thing that was missing was details, I think. The fact that they were wearing everyday battle gear better known in TNG was a bit of a distraction. You'd have thought TPTB would have at least given them some more casual clothes. But it was more than that. I think I needed better definition about who they were as a unique sect of Klingon culture. It would have said a lot and eased my wondering what was up with them besides a retro-virus (which I'll get to in a sec). Just say B'Elanna, whose mother seems to have been rather "traditional," noted how different that group was spiritually to how she was forced to practice as a child. Their "gentler"/less traditional methods let her see it without recoiling, and she's able to appreciate Klingon spirituality a little more because of that. --It's a little near to what happened her, but it's a little more defined. Though it's not everything I'd have had, that's the kind of detail I would have preferred, for the Klingon group, and B'Elanna's being affected by them. Another detail left in the wind: The retro-virus. There was no tension there, and was more like a plot excuse than a problem. I wish they'd have introduced it earlier or found another solution altogether. The bat'leth fight: Ooooh, I was loving that challenge--not to mention the chat in the ready room, and B'Elanna's "Today would definitely not be a good day to die" plus Tom's "The only Klingon I'm afraid of is my wife after a double shift" (BWA! Love it!). Really great stuff in here. But there was no energy in that fight. Waaah! RDM said in the interview posted here that the director kept telling him to tone it down. The director, IMHO, was an idiot. They should have let the two go full force at it (Tom is an active guy, and so the awkwardsness didn't suit him), whack the needles out of each other with a couple falls for both Tom and the other guy, and then wind out the other Klingon. Then, bad guy falls for the third time without Tom's hitting him--a technical win, but not one, too. And I'm still not sure if I liked the "blunted bat'leth" thing. That was just another level of tension taken away. I could change my mind on that, but I think I'd have preferred the danger. I'd also have liked at least a moment between him and the Klingon leader, maybe talking about B'Elanna, maybe talking about Tom's place as the husband to a woman with Klingon blood--anything to that effect. --Details. Only the phaser fight on the bridge was intense. Then again, once more, the tension was deflated when Janeway professed to "no mercy killing on the bridge." Could Tom at least have been able to think about that for another beat? So, in the end, it wasn't the dialogue or the characterization. I enjoyed both a lot. It wasn't really what happened as opposed to how it happened. There was an...enery, lacking in scenes where I'd have expected more. While the time passed quickly, I still didn't go very much into depth where I feel it should have--the sect, the religion, B'Elanna's gradual acceptance, even if her helping them get off the ship is her main reason for spending that time. It wasn't...intense, or striking, as David had pointed out, even while it was enjoyable. And where that and the differences in those Klingons could have been explained, it wasn't. Once again, however, I did enjoy it, I laughed, I was interested, and I felt for the characters--which for me is usually what I need to enjoy an ep. I guess this is one of those times where a re-watch is going to be very necessary. Next week: Did someone say Night? And am I going to get sick of this countdown thing? Time will only tell. LOL! That was another thing I loved. --Doc's treatment of Harry. Totally fun, and yes, a nice reminder of Harry's lasting lucklessness with woman. Poor Harry! Yeaaaaaaaahhhh! One more quick appreciation... I forgot to mention another thing I really, really thought was important--at least to me: The "specialness" of Tom and B'Elanna's daughter. I like how they said it, reinforced it, were so protective of her. The pain in B'Elanna and Tom's faces when they knew she was also affected, the pride in her eyes when Doc announced that the baby's hybrid [tech, tech] allowed the Doc to find a cure (another priceless moment, when Janeway signals him to shut up and agree), was equally special to me. That is one detail they did not leave out: Whatever may occur down the road, there can be no doubt whatsoever that their little girl will be very, very loved. I was very pleased to believe that more than ever in this ep. But again, the writer treated T&B extremely well. Again, it's much appreciated. Well said D'Alaire You hit all of my high points and weaknesses. I think this one will grow on me more after a second watch. I kept thinking...they are craming an awful lot of twists and turns here but at the expense of depth. I also thought it was as close to farce without crossing over to silly. Neelix was GREAT. And I agree, 20 Klingon Pain sticks to the director for holding RDM back. Sue_B...off to rewatch again. When the elders got together to plot a take-over of Voyager, 45 minutes into the show, I thought we were heading for YOAE (since "continuity" is as rare as a blue moon on Voy, I knew we wouldn't have any follow up next week). Thankfully that didn't happened. Gee those Klingons weren't exactly sharp shooters on the bridge. They were causing more damage to the computer system than the humans. Oh BTW, is the cargo bay large enough to hold over 200 klingons? Re: AC said: AC, who has the oddest urge for a leola root casserole at the moment... Uh - oh! Mrs. Mac One scene prompted me to scratch my head When the Klingon leader (forgot his name) was giving B'Elanna a crash course in her heritage, B'Elanna made the comment that she has never gone up against 10,000 warriors. The Klingon told her to think again, then BLT suggested the Borg. At that point I was expecting the Klingon to say, "Who?" but he reacts as though there're been-there-done-that material. My question is... Given that these Klingons left the AQ over 4 decades ago, would they even know who the Borg are? And given how primitive their ship was, if they even had an encounter with the Borg I doubt they would've lived to bump into Voy today. Without reading others' thoughts first - I began the episode with a loud groan of, "Oh, my Lord! Please, not another 'B'Elanna learns to be Klingon and love it'! angst-fest!" BUT. Once it got rolling, it was what the spoilers promised. A "Voyager lite" comedy episode, that when it did get more or less serious (when the baby caught the retrovirus) still worked. I LOVED having a female messiah, of course. Fun. Well acted. Nice outing. D'Alaire, you articulated what i was trying to say better than i could...TERRY WINDELL as director? Didnt he also do SHATTERED? i love SHATTERED, but the one flaw it had, imo, was a direction that failed to punch up the action and heighten the momentum... i totally agree about the lackluster fight scene--that was supposed to be the high point. instead, it was J/P phaser action on the bridge. still, a fun if non-electrifying ep. david g Re: One scene prompted me to scratch my head What made ME scratch my head was Janeway's calm reaction to having her crew complement MORE THAN DOUBLED. I expected more than (a bit later in the script) a vague comment about "strained resources." The environmental systems should have been more of a concern than doubling up in quarters, funny though Tuvok and Neelix were together! And what happened to replicator rationing, and concerns about food supplies in general? Not that those thing nitted at me for long (the story got me involved enough, quickly enough, to put them aside), but I did notice them. But Tuvok's final martyred look was enough to redeem a great deal...! Re: One scene prompted me to scratch my head Q said: At that point I was expecting the Klingon to say, "Who?" but he reacts as though there're been-there-done-that material. My question is... Given that these Klingons left the AQ over 4 decades ago, would they even know who the Borg are? And given how primitive their ship was, if they even had an encounter with the Borg I doubtthey would've lived to bump into Voy today. --------- I just assumed that during their travels through the Delta quadrant they either met up with former Borg or partial Borg or anyone who had contact with the Borg, and placed all of that information in their databanks. Mrs. Mac About our strange bed fellows I certainly hope Tuvok made Neelix clean up his room with a toothbrush. Oh, and BTW, if Neelix calls Tuvok "Mr. Vulcan" one more time someone should vaporize him. Yes, there WAS a reason I wanted to cheerfully murder that nasty Klingon last night for putting both B'Elanna and her baby in danger. I've gone into hyper-protective mode, not to mention extreme jealousy mode for B'Elanna only having a 30-week gestation period. I'm guessing she got a better contract. *snarl* In other words, if all goes well, there will be another second generation Nebulite sometime in late September or early October. AC I would call it a "dramedy"...a dramatic situation treated with a light comedic touch. Not like BRIDE OF CHAOTICA, which was an out-and-out romp (which was on in syndication last night, btw.) There was really nothing in the show that made me grind my teeth and growl and grumble. Once again, I was very impressed with the cast's easy ensemble acting and obvious enjoyment of this season...even the supposed "stars" of the episode (Roxanne & Robert) didn't seem to be "hogging" the screen. I think they (the whole cast, but especially Dawson and McNeill) did a great job of mixing annoyance, humor and pathos...Mulgrew is so perfect this season that it pisses me off that it took her this long to get here... I thought the last scene w/Neelix & Tuvok was classic! (Okay, you knew it was coming, but it was fun to watch.) Minor quibbles that really don't mean anything: I did think that it's unfair to Garrett Wong to be forced to play Harry like such a wimp all the time...it could have been fun to see Harry actually "get some" with no consequences other than a few bruises...and to do it with permission yet! I didn't expect to see the old Klingon starship...I expected to see more of an "ark"-like ship since this was planned to be a generational mission. Question: Why did the Klingon leader look and sound so familiar? Was he that Todd guy who played Worf's brother? Where have I seen him? Mindy Re: Re: One scene prompted me...Q, the Klingons have been in... ...the Delta Quadrant for what, 4 generations? Anybody who spends more than a week in the Delta Quadrant would know about the Borg. Mindy Congratulations, AC! Re: One scene prompted me to scratch my head Nina, I agree wholeheartedly. I think that having 200+ pre-Kitamur (sic?) Klingon's onboard would do a bit more than strain resources. That is a downright crisis. Not only that, the Klingon's definitely seemed kinder and gentler than the pre-Kitamur Klingons that I remember. Especially the leader, who came off as very thoughtful, wise and restrained. But overall, I liked the ep and thought it was fun. So it probably isn't worth nitting over. Neelix, Harry and Tuvok were a great sidebar to the story. And B'Ellana's reflection on her Klingon heritage was a nice contrast to the B'Ellana of two weeks ago (I am still a bit mad at her for that). I wish someone had given her a gentle reminder at the end, that a whole ship of Klingon's might've been lost, had she removed all of the Klingon DNA from her child, as she had planned. But again, fun ep. . . AH HA! AC! I GUESSED IT!!!! YIPPIE!! CONGRATULATIONS!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I knew that Leola Root comment was a sign!!!!!! YIPPIE! Mrs. Mac Yep, that would be the guilty party. (nim) PROPHECY - SCOOOORRRREEEEE! Well finally! I couldn't get in last night so i will just do a quicky : Why the hell can't Voyager kick butt like this more often? Sure we had to wait till Voyager was in the Beta Quad for Klingons but that's only part of my point. Prophecy was FUN. It was exciting and *WOW* The crew interected with each other and had funny non-plot things to say to each other. Well, Chakotay didn't but he never says anything! This is the Voyager i remember, i wish it came around more often. Eric Congratulations!!! WOO HOO!!! You go, AC! Congrats! I'm so thrilled for you!!!! --And yes, now I can definitely see why Mama mode turned on especially well for you! Congrats again, sweetie! Mazel Tov, AC! (nim) Congratulations, AC Although I'm hoping for your sake that the food fetishes take a step up from leola root. Jules Overall we thought this was a good episode. Likes: Tom kicking some Klingon butt to defend the honor of his bride. However, if that Klingon was healthy, I think Tom would have got the snot kicked out of him. Who would have thought Neelix was such a hound dog. He was a regular little Klingon love machine. I never figured him for liking that type of woman. A female Klingon warrior is about as far from the cute little pixie Kes type as Neelix can get. And, Neelix should have worked out some kind of system with Tuvok like if I leave a soup ladle by the outerdoor to our quarters don't come a knockin cause the bed might be a rockin! And how about that Tuvok barging in like that! What if he had been 10 minutes earlier? My eyes, my eyes! I don't think even that famous extra Vulcan eyelid could have spared Tuvok from being blinded by THAT sight. I also have my doubts about that Klingon's taste in males too, can you imagine what a Klingon baby with Neelix would look like! [shudder] :^) Torres is showing some appreciation for her Klingon heritage now. I like how she told the Klingons those heroic stories about herself while dressed in Klingon garb, and they all listened approvingly for the most part. I also enjoyed at the end when she told Tom to keep that Klingon baby name on the list for their baby. Nice to see more B'Elanna/Tom episodes lately and fewer 'Seven learns a valuable lesson about being human' ones. Some food for thought about how prophecies can be MADE to come true if you twist their interpretation just the right way. Also, some interesting thoughts on the basis for religion. In the end I personally believe that Torres baby was in fact the one they had been waiting for, and I think Tom may have thought so too. It sure sounded that way and worked out that way. And, BTW, Tom WAS from a "noble house" his father after all IS an Admiral. So that part about the baby's father coming from a noble family was true if you ask me. Dislikes: What was Janeway thinking giving the Klingons freedom like that,they had just attacked Voyager and were still getting used to the idea that the Federation was no longer their enemies. Did anyone actually doubt there would eventually be trouble. And then after they wreck her bridge and try to steal her ship she still turns the other cheek! But they are such cute cheeks :^). Harry took a leap back to the 'Mr. Harry Dim' of earlier seasons. First he's hiding from that Klingon female like an adolescent whimp. Later he explains the transporter functions to that Klingon without wondering why he might want to know how to transport large groups of people at one time! Come on Harry, a little warning light should have come on even in your first season brain. Geesh. Yeah, I liked this one very much, it had a little of everything in it Mike May your baby live long and prosper...I just had to throw in some corny Trek dialog for this. BTW, I was born in September too! All the best! Mike That's wonderful, AC! Best wishes to the whole family! MEG More re-inforcements! Congrats AC. I hope all goes well with your gestation! Tim What wonderful news AC, Congrats (NIM) Good for you, AC! congrats! nim MESSIAH, or a Really Troubling Lunch Chat I had at John Harvard's today about this episode Had lunch today with my friend and fellow PhD-seeker Caroline (her husband is a VOy-head but she most decidedly isn't!)... Caroline told me that she had huge issues w/last night's episode because of the fact that Voyager/Janeway/Torres et al hoodwink the Klingons into believing that B'Ellana's fetus is the new Klingon messiah... i think Caroline's concern with it involved the collusive decision to mislead and misle the too-gullible Klingons into believing B'Ellana was carrying the Kuvagh'Magh. i tried to defend the ep and spoke about how cool it was that the messiah is female and also that Tom tried to suggest by the end that maybe the fetus IS indeed the Klingon messiah... but I am also troubled by the concerns my friend raised. what do you all think? david g, confused in east cambridge Most Excellent News! Congrats to you and yours, AC! But still... LEOLA ROOT? Makes me think of that scene last week where the prison warden claimed Neelix's leola root rice pilaf was too "fancy" for the prisoners? Too fancy? I would have protested it based on the Geneva convention against cruelty to prisoners! D47 Who? Why? I figured that the Leader didn't care "who" the borg were... just that she'd faced the enemy and defeated them. Kind of like that first season show. Demons & Monsters (?) where the Doc told tales of his derring do in defeating microorganismms. At least, that's how I took the comment/lack thereof. D47 Congratulations AC, try and keep cool this summer "Great, Good and Wonderful, GodLike AND Pure!" At least, that's what I tell my staff daily, when they ask me "who do I think I am". But even so... "I" don't think I AM God. I think you and your friend are a little hung up on the term "Messiah", and for obvious reasons. Perhaps that's the problem of "Universal translators" that "choose unwisely" when trying to convert not just words but IDEAS from one language to another. The leader wasn't looking for "God"... he was looking for someone to tell his people to "put your burden down" and begin to live again. It was a perfect example of the old "The Station" philosophy. That many people spend their life as if they were on a train... and they "put everything off" while waiting for the station. I will start living then... when I get to the station, when I get that new promotion, when I get that new car/home/spouse/grandchild. But they don't realize, that they are missing too much of their life,the TRIP, if they are "waiting" for the station. Tom and B'Elanna are great examples of 2 people on Voyager who "stopped" waiting for the Station/for the alpha quadrant. They decided to get ON with their life...they married, and are now moving (swiftly... 14 weeks pregnant THIS week!) into the next stage... family building! They were a perfect rolemodel for these lost Klingons, who were searching for the one to "save" them, and bring them to a new home. For someone to give them permission to "live" again. I think when B'Elanna realized that her child was NOT going to be declared God incarnate, that she relaxed and allowed herself to "look" at the Leader's suggestions to consider this proposal... and I'm glad she did! Because in learning to "give" to these Klingons, she allowed herself to take something too... a memory of the quiet, soulful moments of her childhood... a memory of a woman we've never heard of, but who obviously held great reverance for this young woman... I loved it, when in the final scene, we see her hang that Bat'leth in her room, near the baby's cradle. It suggested to me that she IS coming to accept her self, BOTH of her selves... and that makes me very happy. I must say... after the angst of the last 2 shows, I loved the humor and the "lack" of tension and life/death feel of the challenge. I liked the "Blunted" (although they didn't LOOK blunted, to me) batleth's... etc. I liked the fact that the only tension came when it looked like TPTB were going to pull a TYPICAL Trek trick and kill off the baby. I LOVED the fact that not only DIDn't they do that, but that the baby DID save her people. Albeit... with a little holographic help. She IS a savior, she IS great, good, godLIKE and pure... In fact, aren't they all, at this stage? Where, therefore, is the lie in that? D47 It's no biggy people I tend to be a nit picker at times. Re: "Great, Good and Wonderful, GodLike AND Pure!" I couldn't have said it better myself, Deb! And besides, david, g., tell Caroline that faith is in the eyes of the faithful (to turn a phrase)...after all, one man's God is another man's Pet Rock. Mindy PROPHECY I liked this better than many of the TNG/DS9 Klingon episodes that were often too serious. We seem to be seeing more pragmatic Klingons (Worf, Martok, the leader here) and I think its about time. Whatever he personally believed the leader saw an opportunity to finally end the journey and with B'Elanna's help accomplished it. He was certainly creative; forcing the warp core overload, coaching B'Elanna, figuring out how Tom could fight without it being to the death (and I liked how they did the challenge, that it was to Tom who as the father also had to prove his honor). I was reminded of "Day of Honor" when B'Elanna was parsing the scrolls. Fitting things about her life into the Klingon context was what she couldn't do then but managed here, and with a reference to UZ no less. For once the attempted take over didn't come off as a result of crew incompetence; these people weren't random aliens but allies, even if they didn't know it before ending up on Voyager. Janeway did limit access; Tuvok didn't mess up and only a few of the Klingons were involved. And the fight on the bridge shows just how much practice the Voyager crew's had over the years. Good continuity with Neelix's research of Klingon food & customs, the Neelix/Tuvok interaction, Doc tweaking Harry, indirect reference to UZ (and where it made sense, not, thank goodness, as residual nanoproes in amniotic fluid = cure which is what I was afraid they'd do). About the baby. We've covered nearly 2 months in 3 episodes and the next 2 look like they could each span several weeks. Maybe she'll be born at the beginning of the "final arc". And 2 replicator rations on her being named after the great-grandmother mentioned here. Congratulations (NIM) Congratulations, AC! (NIM) Are you going to use another Voyager name for this one? I wouldn't recommend Icheb. Re: a Really Troubling Lunch Chat I think that the wonderful thing about some of these 'prohecies' and 'scrolls' is their marvelous ambiguity. They can be interpreted howeer you would like them to be (I remember writing paper in college in which I had to use data a normally would have used in support of a theory to support it's opposite) It's a wonderful lesson in perspective. If the Klingons believed that B'Elanna's was the Messiah,she was and their lives would be richer for having known her. If they chose not to believe she was they can continue their quest. What the Voy crew did is nothing more than what people have for centuries upon centuries, read something and using their own perspective drew their own conclusions. Tehere was plenty in those scrolls to suggest that B'Elanna's child fit the mold of the Kublamach Andrea That's what you get when you stop the Seven-centric episodes Minor Miracle: The true miracle of this episode was the lack of Seven and the fact that she was actually well-used. Since VOY already has a Chief Engineer, medical officer, captain, tactical, etc. Seven's only unique function is to show the location of things. Seriously though, this episode is a little more ensemble than the typical Borg episode (starring Seven) would be. Neelix: I think Neelix was my favorite part of the episode. He made me laugh; he's such a randy little guy. He know has something to really look forward to in the alpha quad. I'm not surprised that he had the physical stamina to be with a Klingon. As the annoying Seven pointed out, Talaxian had dense musculature that made them good drones. Is it just me or do Klingon women seem to be pretty open about knocking boots with members of other species, whereas Klingon men seem really into Klingon women (even Worf was besotted with K'Ehlyr and Grilka, even when Jadzia was right there)? I've been thinking that maybe another reason that Klingons are extremely aggressive is that the male to female ratio is high, meaning more male children are born, leaving the men to fight for the right to mate and explaining why the society isn't polygamous given the male mortality rate. Back to the episode, it was okay -- luke warm. I liked that it was pretty ensemble although Chakotay should have played a role. He is a spiritual man and B'Elanna's friend. I don't want B'Elanna's world to center on Tom only; she should still have friends. I wish she had interacted with the Klingons a little more. In particular, I would have liked to see her interact with a Klingon child and wanting to give that child a better life than drifting in space is what motivated her to play into the prophesy. I didn't like Harry being so hapless. Unlike david g, I think plenty of characters have suffered more greatly than Tom. Harry being a case in point. Early Harry had luck with the ladies (Prime Factors, Remember, Non Sequitor). He dweeb factor was sealed in Revulsion. Moreover, Harry had a strong moral core and would do the right thing no matter what. That all changed. The PTB saw that his character work best for Seven when he was a drooling boob. So he became a drooling boob. He no longer worked in engineering to give Seven and Paris more time and he was made less commanding so he would be a better sidekick and foil for Paris, All IMO. But, again I digress. Getting back to the topic, I liked Kolhar or as Mania called him Nostrakahless. He was a good guy. I liked that B'Elanna was willing to explore her Klingon heritage a little. The prayer scene was very effective, her story telling, as was the final scene. She looked so natural getting the baby's crib ready. Paris wasn't annoying. I still could have done without the fight scene. There was too much going on in this episode. It needed a little more focus. nim Re: Janeway/Torres used the religious sensibilities of the Klingon masses as an "opiate," Even a weapon against these silly, superstitious Klingons. *But it didn't work!* The weapon is turned on them. When the whole thing's about to crash and burn, they discover exactly what Janeway discovered in Sacred Ground: "It's not what you think" If you think you know, then for sure you don't. I don't remember if Janeway and Torres got that but I know Tom and the Doc did. I think that's the whole point of religion -- that something exists beyond human (and Klingon) assumptions. My answer to Caroline is, "Yep." And that's one reason I think the episode was worthy of honor. Now we're waiting for two babies! Congrats AC!!! Not much to add to what others have said, except that I saw the way things turned out as a perfect (and delightful) example of what I regard as the Divine Sense of Humor. Random thoughts on Prophecy. I liked it. I didn't love it, but I liked it a lot. It was fun and had some great moments in it. Loved the Tuvok/Neelix moments and the Harry/doc moments. The pacing was off a bit. There did need to be more fire in the fight, as someone mentioned. There could have been a lot more drama there. The fight on the bridge was great though and Janeway and Paris aquitted themselves well. The scene with B'Elanna and the leader, never can remember names, praying was quite moving. It was probably my favorite scene in the show. Paris did seem a bit annoyed with B'Elanna for running to Janeway when he took that challenge. This is the second time she has done that. I guess she doesn't have much faith in him, she didn't think he could win the fight either. I am getting a little tired of the men do all the cooking cliche that Trek has developed. How about a little balance folks. So far every meal they have eaten in their quarters Tom has cooked. Janeway can't cook. Sisko's wife couldn't cook. I assume Seven can't cook. Boy, the women would starve left to their own devises It was probably just me but McNeill and Dawson didn't seem to have their hearts in this one. They both did a wonderful job and were very belivable, but there wasn't a lot of passion under it all. I can't really put my finger on it, but they didn't have the fire they had in "Lineage". I had a problem with the whole deceiving the masses theme. Not exactly what your friend Caroline was talking about david, but the very paternalistic feel of "we know what's best for you". I remember in the 60's and 70's, much of the protests were about the "credibility gap". The idea that government was not being truthful and honest in it's dealings with the public. This brought back those feelings. The minipulation of the facts, or the spin as we now call it, to attain an end. Yes, the Captain Klingon did think he knew what was best for his crew, but this was more a community then a crew. They deserved his honesty. As I say, I found it unsetteling. I thought there should have been much more angst over the fact that both B'Elanna and her baby had the virus. It just kind of laid there. B'Elanna and Tom got a moment of reaction, two concerned closeups, then back to work. I've come to the conclusion the writers of Voyager use continuity only on the things that are unimportant to the main story line. We seem to have forgotten that Tom used a Klingon exercise program in "Displaced", and was quite good with the bat'leth at that time. Why wouldn't he still be using it? Also, as someone else mentioned, I would think that Paris being a member of one of Starfleets elite, could be considered noble. Both Tom and Janeway do come from Starfleets elite families and since we are to assume that there is no more nobility on earth, I would think that would take the place. As I say, I liked it, just didn't love it. It did have its moments though. Did love West Wing though, really looking forward the part 2 next week. Shadda Oh wordy one, this was long, almost as long as one of your's hehehehe Re: Random thoughts on Prophecy. Shadda proclaimith..."Oh wordy one, this was long, almost as long as one of your's hehehehe (Don't hurt me)" Hrumph! Here I'm purposely trying to be good, and "still" I get slammed. Sigh. Its been a freaking week at work, Shadda... Maybe I'll get some time/be in the mood to be "wordy" next week.
(Hurt you? Hey, I've taken an oath... NOT to hurt any accountants during tax season. ESPECIALLY after what the last one did that visited the "Real" West Wing 3 days ago!)
D47 Okay, my fellow wordy friend... have you "heard" these yet? http://www.yourbigshop.com/thepretender/islandofthehaunted.html You're just lucky I beat Maven, and am in "such" a good mood!
D47 (J/P Forever!) Half baked but hearty I enjoyed PROPHECY well enough; there was nothing that was particularly wrong but it didn't feel like it rose to its full potential, either. I guess I really liked the kinds of shows that Braga and Menosky developed when they were still with the show in a larger capacity. Whenever there was a strange, high concept idea like the one that was at the root of this episode, they'd go for it full throttle. Imagine PROPHECY if it were along the lines of BLINK OF AN EYE, an episode that was consumed by the possibilities of the main story idea, even though it was primarily Voyager based. PROPHECY felt a little too generic-- instead of going all the way with the possibilities of meeting up with Klingons from a generational ship guided by an apparent prophecy, these elements were just allowed to kind of trickle into a much more standard issue kind of show than you'd expect from the storyline. As a result, the sum seems less than the parts: the inadvertant realization of some of the things the Klingons were expecting, the coincidences, B'Elanna rediscovering some Klingon traditions (I thought the prayer scene was interesting but little came of it...), the relationship between Kohlar and T'Greth... these were all things that were very interesting but as a whole, seemed to be thrown in simply for good measure. Still, there were no major mis-steps, but it still didn't seem to rise to its full potential. That said, there was a kicky thrill in seeing an old Klingon ship decloak and attack Voyager-- some of the humor in the episode worked and there was nothing like seeing the Klingons beam onto the bridge... this episode had a lot of spunk that I haven't seen in quite awhile. Frankly it's been a long time since a good old fashioned fight scene and I was hoping that the Klingons wouldn't get busted before pulling their ambush attempt. The transporter use was pretty clever, and we got to see that the Voyager crew could hold their own against old-style Klingons. Hey, and Janeway even got a new catchphrase! But just how are we going to start dropping "Sorry, no mercy killings on my bridge" into conversations? The show had spunk and fun, and the Klingons were a lot more interesting than I thought they would be. Despite its flaws PROPHECY made for an enjoyable episode. Jason Jason, what did you think of LINEAGE? i found it a great episode--anguished, cathartic, troubling. i must say, ive realy enjoyed certain eps this season, which finally has started coming into its own. the bridge j/p/klingons fight scene was my favorite from PROPHECY, too. david g Didn't see it! The tape didn't work. Sigh. I am looking forward to next week's "The Void"-- another episode written by James Kahn, so hopefully that episode will come to the same level of "Lineage". Jason On Women Cooking Trek, Shadda, i think that having the women either hate or be indifferent twds cooking probably started out as a feminist, non-sexist attempt to rewrite gender expectations re: cooking. so, scientist Janeway doesnt cook, and Neelix becomes nurturant cook-mother-counsellor... it's perhaps a woman-inthe-sciences-wouldnt-cook thing, too, since Torres is also a scientist, and Seven is, well, Borg. in any event, i say, let the women be artisanal cooks, too! david g Re: On Women Cooking Trek, ... and yet.... I don't think Chakotay has cooked a single meal since the 2nd to the last ep in season 2. On the other hand... Janeway, the anticook To be fair to the married couple... the two times we've seen Tom cook this year, have also been the two times he's been home "first". Perhaps the married folks on the board would like to take up this argument... To me, a "true" division of labour would suggest that "whomever" gets home first should do the honors. Perhaps I'm wrong? D47 Thanks Deb, what would I do without you Loved the site and the clips. I am sooooo looking forward to the next movie. So, they do have feelings! Yea, like we didn't know that Is it just me, or did Prophacy not get a lot of talk around here. It seems we didn't discuss it much. Hummm, I wonder why. Shadda Re: Wonder why...? Many reasons, I'm sure. One (?) maybe it was a victim of many "previous" postings. I wonder if people got "tired out" from all the "discussion" that went on weeks before? I thought it was interesting that the thread on "Prophecy"... and even (I think) on its slam bang predecessor... "Lineage" didn't eclipse the previous threads/discussions about "dominant" klingon genes and Tom's usurping B'Elanna's right to defend her honor. So, maybe it's a little "been there/done that" syndrome along with midwinter posting fatigue? As for me... its a combination of real life and new resolutions. D47 | ||
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Prophecy
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PROPHECY - Disaster avoided
No Uh-ohs, Mrs. Mac, more like Wheeeeee!
Congrats, AC 