Repentance

Repentance Discussion Thread. (NIM)
D'Alaire -- 1 Feb 2001, 03:05 GMT

OMIGOD! It's Dodger!!!! (for you China Beach fans. )

Gaaaad.
Janeway216 -- 1 Feb 2001, 03:48 GMT

Borrowing the Good, Bad, and Ugly format . . .

The Good.

-- This episode brought up good and patent points about execution. Is it right to demand 'an eye for an eye'? Are there some people who must be killed in order to stop them from hurting and killing other people? Is everyone redeemable? Are we not as bad as the killers themselves for killing the killers? Living in a state that executed what, eight people this past month (ol' Frankie needed his kicks for the year), I hear heated debates about many of these question. Should we have killed Wanda Jean, who professed to have come to know Jesus and to be sorry for her crimes? Although "Repentance" was probably in the can before we executed even a one of the people slated to die this month, it does echo our situation.

-- I thought Ethan Phillips pulled off that final scene with the Benkarian (his name was in the captioning, but I can't remember it) very well. That last snort of disgust was very good. More on that in the Bad, though.

-- Mulgrew was excellent when she came in to Astrometrics to tell Iko that the family had denied his appeal. Just that teensiest shake of the head . . . and then "I'm sorry." (Of course, I knew Iko was doomed as soon as he said he'd like to stay on Voyager.)

-- Return of the Action Chakotay! He stood at a console! He shouted his lines! He sounded genuinely worried!

The Bad.

-- Less cast involvement this week. Tom and B'Elanna had about two lines each, although they were cute; Harry had one line. Tuvok got to look incompetent again.

-- I am sick of Doc climbing up on his moral soapbox and preaching about things. A few weeks ago, it was hologram rights. Now it's prisoners' rights. They are indeed very thorny issues, and he does genuinely have something to say, but it's the way he says it. He puffs up like a mama hen, and those eyebrows reach for his hairline, and he just starts a-going. And the more incensed he gets, the higher his voice gets, and if he's arguing with the captain, he bobs around for emphasis. Lewis Zimmerman should have been on the debate team.

-- Please, let's trot out all the cliches we can, because we're Voyager and we can't write without cliches. Of course the most violent prisoner undergoes a dramatic behavioral change. Of course the seemingly most benign prisoner's pulling a devious scam. Of course it's Seven's magical wonderprobes that save the day. And of course the Nygeans are total turds.

-- Neelix gets played. I mean, he gets played. Doesn't he always get played? You think after seven years, he'd have learned.

The Ugly.

-- Okay, let me say it right out. I am sick of Seven and I am sick of Jeri Ryan. I want a sane Kes back and I want her back NOW. I didn't think I liked Kes much until they gave me Seven, and now I realize Jen was absolutely a goddess.

First off, I'm sick of Seven always being somehow, able to save the day. Early on, it was her special Borg knowledge. Now, it's those stinkin' nanoprobes of hers. She busts out many more gadgets, she's gonna be James Bond. Second off, I'm sick of Seven always being the one who gets all the character growth. Well -- let me revise that. Other people do get character growth, but it's usually at Seven's prompting. I think the only one that has been immune from this phenomenon is Janeway, and that's because she's never written the same three episodes in a row. Seven, in four years, has "regained her humanity", developed her sense of humor, kissed a guy, and now is experiencing guilt over her actions as a Borg. I'm with Janeway: Grow up. You've already wallered in this. I have had enough of Seven angst.

As for why I'm sick of Jeri Ryan, others can say that she has great line delivery. But her snooty attitude in this and other episodes has driven me up the wall. She doesn't ever interact with the other characters rationally and evenly; everything's always said angrily, or else she looks down her nose and drawls at them. Good God. Does she ever have a nice day? Maybe I am confusing Seven with Jeri, but her acting is always so one-faceted.

216
Stopping because for one she wants to see what everyone else has to say

Now, continuing on that thought...
D'Alaire -- 1 Feb 2001, 03:58 GMT

..., I nearly came out of my seat when I realized it was Jeff Kober. It makes perfect sense for him to play the man who finds repentance and suffers his conscience like Iko does. Wow, did that take me back to some very fond memories of great scenes from China Beach, Too cool!

I really want Bob Picardo to fess up about reuniting with him, and must watch this again if only for any inside jokes they might have used--Heaven knows Doc Richards fixed up ol' Dodger enough.

I generally liked this one, though I really thought they'd pulled the explanation of Iko's transformation out of their [hats]. But I knew just as easily that it wasn't about the reason as much as the issue at hand.

I'm not sure how to judge the whole issue in itself, so I'll save it aside. My feelings are mixed and quite personal in this. The episode shows well enough how a man might reform and feel it &c., and I don't think it's an impossible thing, but...Well, it's too late to get into that now. Again, my feelings are mixed, and have been for some time.

The racial slant to the opposite argument (an man claiming he's not guilty but is a victim of his race turning out to be guilty after all--or even if he really didn't commit that crime) is as much at odds in me. I'm interested in what other people have to say on it, though.

Now, aside from Trek's penchant for pushing one side an issue, which they certainly did here from the Doc's morality to Seven's turnaround and personal angle, I did think they presented it interestingly enough (Kober really sold it, I think). At the same time, it was predictable, how Iko reformed and truly felt his guilt, while Yediq was way too quickly & easily a scumbag in the end, conning the daylights out of poor, honest (and yep, more gullible than Tom) Neelix....

Not to mention Tom's: "When I was in the Federation Penal Facility..."

***Foreshadowing***

(aside: Waaaaahahahahaaa! I love it! Tom in Klingon armor! I can't WAIT for next week! WOO HOO!!!!...ahem. Where was I?)

Anyway, the hour moved pretty quickly and was performed wonderfully by Dodger (er, Jeff Kober), and I'll admit it was interesting to see how they paralleled it to Seven's feelings of repentance. It was an angle that was a bit obvious and a subject that's been rather well-worn (not to mention how I groaned when I knew it'd be nanoprobes to the rescue ), but one I didn't expect to be drawn out as far as it was.

If they move on from there, I'll be even gladder.

So, it was an interesting ep, though predictable and a bit pushy; it was well-acted and strangely paced in such a way that it went rather quickly--or maybe it was just me. I think I need to give it another watch to really figure out how I feel about the issue thing, though, if I do, anyway.

Next week: Popcorn and Blood Wine for all! Compliments of Baktag, who'll be scoring the event.

No, promos and bat'leths aside, I'm anxious to see how B'Elanna handles this one, though Tom in armour really is a really nice touch....

Thank you Mr. Biller!

Not to bad....
Eric -- 1 Feb 2001, 04:33 GMT

It was another filler show but it was ok filler.

I saw the good prisoner is bad the bad is good thing about a mile away.

I knew Tuvok's plans would fall apart and he would look bad....again.

I think i saw Chakotay i think he may have said something.

Seven's Nanoprobes haven't saved the day for awile. But why use a needle to pull them out? Can't she just inject them with her Assimilators? She HAS used them this season! That would have been a LOT cooler.

Baddie prisoner's brother and his little ship sure messed up Voyager pretty easily. *sigh*

I'm not sure i liked the Seven/Janeway guilty Seven speech at the end. I thought the episode was about the prisoner and the Death Penalty, but now it was all *another* lesson for Seven???

Next week looks pretty good!

Eric

A fine, honorable (if predictable) episode
david g -- 1 Feb 2001, 04:56 GMT

First of all, I think VOY should be commended for doing the honorable Trek work of allegorical treatment of pressing social issues, in the spirit of TOS...

this ep reminds me a lot of TOSs "Let That Be Your Last Battlefield"--honest, a bit plodding, effective.

i really didnt find this to be just YASE. i thought the episode was genuinely interested in exploring the unfairness of treating even death row inmates like dirt...even if it was predictable, i liked that Neelix, "the softest touch in the universe," felt characteristic compassion for the Nygeans, and that the Federation officers refused to allow them to be hurt--even as they were totally committed to keeping them restrained.

i didnt like at all, by the way, the way Tom and B'Elanna were so flippant about the issues in their one scene...i could have really done w/out that.

i also really liked Janeway here--at her best tough but compassionate self. personally, i dont think theyve visited the Borg guilt-Seven-Janeway stuff in a while, and this episode reminded me of how much i missed those ethically-minded, charged debates btwn Janeway and Seven...i think Jeri Ryan is a very good actress, and shouldnt be blamed for TPTB's erratic, silly overuse of her character. but i digress.

in many ways, Repentance is, i suspect, a lot like Memorial--a hard-hitting, honorable, morality-minded episode that earns huge points, with me, for being ABOUT something...while remaining, on some level, pedestrian, "academic," and not an episode i can imagine returning to very often.

still, this fine episode deserves credit for being a gutsy exploration of the tangled complexities of the death penalty and environmental predestination.

by the way, i loved the new look at/of the brig, and those force field effects were kewl.

david g

Seven cries a river
Terry -- 1 Feb 2001, 05:15 GMT

Predictable, predictable, and cliche. There wasn't a single move that wasn't telegraphed way ahead. Bad guy is good, good guy is bad, tough guy goes soft, yadda, yadda, yadda.

Anything remotely interesting in this episode was done long ago by Brad Dourif as Suder in Meld. And much more interestingly.

Frankly, I don't buy the basic medical technobabble. Even if the guy was unable to have a conscience because of a brain defect, correcting the defect doesn't instantly turn the guy into a model citizen. A conscience is learned behavior; he still has to learn that.

A wasted hour.

Because Tom was right?
D'Alaire -- 1 Feb 2001, 11:04 GMT

...the way Tom and B'Elanna were so flippant about the issues in their one scene...i could have really done w/out that.

While I agree there could have been more to that scene, I didn't see B'Elanna as flippant. She seemed neutral. She asked for the information, but she wouldn't make a judgment. Smart cookie.

Tom's a hard sell, and perhaps he was--charactistically--flippant about it (meant to be the cynical "cop" in this case, and it pretty much fit his character, and even his upbringing). But what can you say for a man who's seen it--and once was as smooth? Of course he'll doubt it, even with evidence. I think he'd have to know the prisoner personally to make his own judgment. If he had been in Neelix's shoes, I don't think Tom would have gone as far as Neelix did with the prisoner, as well.

He seemed to weigh more heavily Neelix's point in the end about the death sentence, though, even if we only got a shot of that change. That did make a difference. He's not a total disbeliever, after all. He's stood up on issues before when he felt something about them. --But he had to come to that belief, and Neelix's enthusiasm and research in this case wasn't going to do it alone.

But in this case, his instincts were on: Tom was right.

It's pretty easy to see that the scene was meant to point out that sometimes we are too cynical about criminals, and that sometimes people are unfairly judged. Then again, sometimes that attitude is a correct assement after all.

The point is that sometimes, you really don't know.

Re: Seven cries a (well-traveled) river
Mrs. Mac -- 1 Feb 2001, 12:32 GMT

Once again, I'm in Terry's corner. I was bored with this episode. I read about this sort of thing daily in the NY papers so there was nothing new that hasn't been talked about and dissected in every editor's comment. The nanoprobe bit was just a convenient way to make this character instantly sympathetic. Granted, we probably all wanted him to live but it was just all so full of cliches.

I agree with whoever said that Neelix was good in the last scene with the prisoner who wanted the nanoprobes. Janeway was good too but we've seen her in this morality stories so many times we can just tell what she's about to say.

Also, having P/T behind that counter was a convenient way not to have RD decked out in the maternity outfit. They were both probably wearing jeans.

All in all, a medicore episode.

Mrs. Mac

If this hadn't been the one thousandth (at least!) Doc and Seven "growth" episode
Nina -- 1 Feb 2001, 13:32 GMT

I might not have greeted it with such - disappointment. It wasn't bad; rather preachy, decidedly predictable, but no worse than other such "take on a moral issue" Trek episodes over the last 30-plus years.

But I am SO sick of the Doctor delivering the sermons (he who can't feel pain doing that always makes me tired, anyway), and of Seven learning lessons!

It wasn't bad. It wasn't great. Whoever said "filler episode," I agree.

What botherd me, D'Alaire,
david g -- 1 Feb 2001, 15:26 GMT

is that Tom and B'Elanna were both so eager to condemn the prisoners, guilty or otherwise, seeming to have an attitude of "How could you possibly feel sorry for these people?!" from the get-go.

i was pleased that Tom's penal colony past was brought in, and there was a genuine sweetness in Tom telling Neelix that he is "the softest touch in the Delta Quadrant," but the flippancy still bother me.

did yo like te ep generally, D'Alaire? i wasnt enamorate of it but i thought it was a decent ep.

and i admire VOY's new willingness to take on social issues.

david g

Crime and Punishment
Shawnster -- 1 Feb 2001, 15:36 GMT

This was one of those blatant "hold still while I hit you over the head with the message" type of stories Star Trek is known for (and proud of?)

And, since I disagree with the message (perhaps a first), the episode ruffled my feathers.

And, maybe that's a good thing. One of the purposes of morality plays is to make the viewer stop and think. Analyze and reanalyze their point of view, their thoughts.

The story was very interesting. It wasn't a groaner like we've had in the past.

But instead of exploring the issue of the Prime Directive, non interference, it dove straight into the immorality of capital punishment.

Such a barbaric, savage notion.

Isn't it nice to know we are all full of contradictions?

The Doctor is adamant that killing is wrong. Yet he serves on a ship that has weapons of mass destruction. Heals a crew that is trained to kill others in the name of duty.

I guess it's ok to kill others if you have orders to do so. It's ok to kill if the other one is the aggressor. Don't start the fight but be sure to finish it.

Wonder if Starfleet still has General Order 24 on the books:

"Destory the surface of a planet unless the order is countermanded within a specified period." Kirk gave General Order 24 to be carried out in 3 hours agains the Eminiarians in "A Taste of Armageddon."

Killing from a distance is moral, killing criminals isn't.

I had a workmate that pointed out an interesting contradiction once. He noted that generally those people who are against the death penalty are pro abortion. I guess it' ok to kill at the start of life than at the end of life.

Conversely, he noted, those who are for the death penalty are against abortion. As if you have to let them grow and mature before you kill them and harvest them, so to speak.

Like I said, we all have our contradictions.

Since I disagree with the show's message, I am disappointed they didn't take time to fully explore both sides of the issue. Instead of presenting honest to goodness reasons why someone would feel the death penalty is right, they only chose to show legitimate reasons why the death penalty is wrong.

They only chose to tug the heart strings in one direction, the way they wanted you to go.

The death penalty is wrong because sometimes people are convicted on circumstantial evidence. The death penalty is wrong because people have a medical condition that made them act the way they did. If they get help, it will be fine.

Nice to know the alien in this episode had a biological equivilant of a conscience. A conscience they could restart.

Too bad that doesn't work with humans. There is no biological location for a human conscience. One of the benefits and drawbacks of science fiction, using technobabble to help your side of the cause.

True, we did see some true colors toward the end. The ethnic minority prisoner did lie to Neelix. Well, he did try to escape and threaten to kill the guard. As for lying to Neelix, well, Neelix did discover he was convicted on circumstantial evidence. Perhaps he is innocent of the original crime and his sentence made him act the way he did.

In short, he's not really responsible for his actions either.

You know, no one is responsible for their actions. It's all environment, society, discrimination, my parents beat me, etc... No one is responsible. No one knows what's right and wrong. It's ok to committ crimes because it's not your fault.

Years ago the plea was "guilty by reason of insanity." Today the plea is "innocent by reason of insanity."

No one is responsible for their actions.

Eye for an eye. That's not justice, that's revenge.

Tell that to the survivors of the six million Jews exterminated by the Nazis.

Tell that to anyone who has had a family member or loved one brutally removed from their lives forever.

I guess the idea of restitution and equal compensation only goes so far. If I steal $10 or $100 or $1,000 dollars from you, it's OK for you to expect me to repay that money to you.

If I steal the life of a loved one from you though, I shouldn't have to supply equal compensation.

In short, I should be allowed to keep the gift of life that I stole from someone else.

20 years, 30 years or life imprisonment is adequate compensation for killing. My family can still visit me. The victim's family, on the other hand, is denied their friend or relative forever. Seems equitable.

Life sentences, incarcaration, rehabilitation.

Charles Manson is a poster child for rehabilitation.

The prison system is very inadequate. Talk about cruel and unusual punishment. Let's lock people away for the rest of their lives behind concrete walls. Let's not put them in any rehabilitation programs. Let's let them be raped and assaulted by fellow inmates. Let's never let them see anyone from society again.

Let's provide for all their needs, though. Medical, dental. Cable TV, magazine subscriptions.

Let's allow them to be a blight on society. They consume resources but provide nothing.

Or we can lock them down in solitary. Let them just have the basic necessities.

In either case, we lock them away from the rest of humanity. They are not a part of human society, yet they are a drain on that same society.

The current prison system is woefully inadequate.

At least in the olden days they made license plates. Now if you require prisoners to do any work for the benefit of society, that's considered slavery or cruel and unusual punishment.

Yet, what of those who do repent of their crime? What of those who are innocent yet convicted? Is it just and fair to exicute these ones?

Is it moral and just to exicute a person that is innocent? Or is that really a crime on top of a crime?

Or perhaps capital punishment should only be reserved for henious crimes. Multiple murderers. The unreformable. To be labled unreformable, one has to at least attempt to be reformed first. More than once, I would suspect.

If killing is wrong, isn't all killing wrong? Aren't we ever going to grow past this part of life?

There is no clear cut answer. Man can't find the answer. It doesn't belong to man to direct his own step. Nothing man comes up with will ever truely please and satisfy everyone.

Hang on folks, Shawn's going to get preachy here.

The death penalty is one of those touchy issues that doesn't have a clear-cut answer. Both sides have legitimate arguments. As I said earlier, the prison system is woefully inadequate, yet I can't think of a better alternative.

Fortunately, I don't have to. For those people who have read and trusted in the Scriptures, they know that only God has the real solution to these problems. God has promised he will put an end to all these problems and issues that divide and trouble us. Under his Kingdom arrangement, all of life's woes will be taken care of.

It doesn't matter if I think the death penalty is right or wrong. It doesn't matter if I think the prison system is great or needs improvement. I know and have faith that soon all these things will be done away with. Soon there will be no crime, no war, no sickness, no disease. No death penalty, no prisons. (Psalm 37:9-11, 29; Isaiah 2:2-4; Daniel 2:44; Michah 4:4)

It doesn't matter what I think, God's Holy Word has the only real, legitimate answers.

OK, Shawn's done preaching now.

It had its tediousness, but I liked REPENTANCE...here's why, i think:
david g -- 1 Feb 2001, 15:36 GMT

I probably like this ep because I am strongly anti-death penalty, and because i really like those thorny, painful ethical debates between Janeway and Seven.

yes, it was formulaic, but even within that mode, it was well done...the scenes btwn Neelix and the duplicitous prisoner, Tuvok's gravity in dealing with the condemned (reminded me a lot of Spock's in that TOS episode where a psychotic megalomaniac escapes the brig), Janeway and Seven's ethical debates, the look on Janeway's face, her body language, when she has to tell the prisoner that he will have to die...all of that was very good in my opinion.

actually, the ep would have been improved if there had been MORE Seven angst in it, i think, to make the issues more fraught.

david g

So did anyone get a count. . .
MEG -- 1 Feb 2001, 17:34 GMT

. . .of just how many cliches they used in this episode? Not to mention how many times they repeated the same cliche over and over and over again?

What a complete and total borefest. I can only guess that whichever writer is responsible for this is taking a night class on "20th century ethics and the morality of the death penalty" at their local community college and needed to write a seminar paper. He (she? Who did write this turkey, anyway?) even worked in the course syllabus word-for-word as dialogue between Seven and Doc. It couldn't have been any more amateurish and any less compelling if it had tried.

Sigh. Why couldn't they have run "Lineage", which I didn't get to see, this week and this -- thing -- last week?

MEG

Seven steals the show, again!
Q -- 1 Feb 2001, 18:03 GMT

This eps started out dealing with the condemed prisoner seeking redemption, but TPTB soon turned it into a Yet Another Seven Saves the Day (via nano-probs in the most contrived scenario imaginal)/Seven Learns Yet Another Lesson on her road to humanity (a, la, Capital Punishment sucks). This Seven worship has got to stop. Doesn't Bragga have any shame?

Shawn, you just gave a good argument as to why Tom should have not been released from prision
Diane -- 1 Feb 2001, 18:05 GMT

He committed treason by joining the Marquis, God only know how many people died because of this act. He also did something on Caldik Prime that caused the death of three officers. With your argument, I am sure the family and friends of all those who died by Tom's actions were quite upset when he was released into Janeway's custody.

Even though his part was very small (well considering McNeill's work in Lineage and next week's Prophecy that's understandable) but it is big. His line about being in the Penal Colony reminded everyone that he was thought not to be "redemable." Thanks to Voyager, he has turned his life around.

Same holds true for B'Elanna's presence. She is Marquis.

Just something to chew on.

Di

What else to you expect?
ABBU -- 1 Feb 2001, 18:23 GMT

This is yet another outing by the horrid writer (name escapes me) who wrote "Tsunkatse," "Infinite Regress," "Vis a Vis," and "Bliss."

This guy seems to have a thing for writing Seven episodes. Get that pen out of this man's hand!

How many ethical points can fit on the head of a pin?
Shawnster -- 1 Feb 2001, 18:24 GMT

Ouch. Yeah, something indeed to chew on.

The problem with blanket assertations is they don't address individual situations.

Situational ethics? The end justifies the means? Or does it?

Of course, do the families know that Tom has been released from prison? Bet they don't.

Now, wouldn't that be an interesting story. The Maqui members confront survivors of their targets.

No, I don't want Tom to go back to prison (although it didn't look that bad. Not like "The Chute"). He's my favorite character, after all.

Just goes to show there aren't any clear cut answers, yes?

Shawnster

I think decent sums it up fine.
D'Alaire -- 1 Feb 2001, 18:24 GMT

I didn't see them condemning the prisoners, though. Eagerly? Certainly not. They simply didn't feel one way or the other about it--which IMHO, is not a crime. (shrug) Different interps.

For that matter, I'm glad they made at least some effort to put in a couple people who were not crying freedom, so to speak. It made me feel better, personally.

Anyway, on the overall rating, I'm still quite mixed. The issue pushing was unnecessary and annoying (after a while, I just ignored it), and heaven knows Seven's been through this one before, but the performances were very good and the issue in itself (on a personal level) interested me. Dodger playing the redeemed man gets a point in my book, too. That much about the ep I did like.

So, decent works for me.

It coulda been a contender!
Vickie -- 1 Feb 2001, 18:36 GMT

The potential was there for a great Trek morality play. They even had a good AOTW. Dodger was one of the great characters on China Beach and Jeff Kober always did a wonderful job, as he did last night on Voyager. But sadly, things took a wrong turn somewhere and Repentence drove straight off a cliff into a fiery crash.

Sigh. What was wrong with Repentence?

-Yet another Seven/Doc episode

-Nanoprobes can fix anything

-one-dimensional villians

-being hit over the head with a heavy handed Morality Lesson

-complete and utter predictability

-security? what security?

-a little bitty teeny tiny space ship attacking and damaging Voyager

-a little bitty teeny tiny space ship attacking and damaging Voyager and just coincidently happening to take out the power for the deck that the prisoners' cells were on

-unarmed prisoners rushing up a narrow hallway and overpowering two armed guards. THAT was SO STUPID. The guards could have just stood at the end of the hallway and mowed those guys down

-magically appearing phaser rifles

-Tuvok looks like an idiot. Again. (Yes, I know I already coverd this above in "security? what security?, but it's so outrageous I have to mention it again.)

I could go on, but I won't. Repentence came so close to being a good episode but it just didn't make it.

Vickie

Repentance? Just OK
D -- 1 Feb 2001, 19:30 GMT

Definitely a let down after the last 3 new episodes. But at least they didn't add an unrelated B story; the Neelix/prisoner stuff actually fit with the rest of the story. And at least Neelix got more than 1 or 2 lines.

I did like that Janeway finally tells Seven, basically, "Enough already with the guilt trip". Sometimes she's come across as if she's the only one on the ship who has questionable actions on her conscience. It was interesting that they had her admit the installation of the implant was painful. We've seen people being assimilated appearing to be in pain (the man having the artificial arm attached in "Dark Frontier") but that seemed to contradict the implication that drones don't feel anything. Apparently they do, they just can't react to it.

I was surprised to see Tom & B'Elanna at all considering the P/T focus shows that bracket this.

Shawn....
Eric -- 1 Feb 2001, 19:37 GMT

"The death penalty is one of those touchy issues that doesn't have a clear-cut answer. Both sides have legitimate arguments. As I said earlier, the prison system is woefully inadequate, yet I can't think of a better alternative.

Fortunately, I don't have to. For those people who have read and trusted in the Scriptures, they know that only God has the real solution to these problems. God has promised he will put an end to all these problems and issues that divide and trouble us. Under his Kingdom arrangement, all of life's woes will be taken care of.

It doesn't matter if I think the death penalty is right or wrong. It doesn't matter if I think the prison system is great or needs improvement. I know and have faith that soon all these things will be done away with. Soon there will be no crime, no war, no sickness, no disease. No death penalty, no prisons. (Psalm 37:9-11, 29; Isaiah 2:2-4; Daniel 2:44; Michah 4:4)

It doesn't matter what I think, God's Holy Word has the only real, legitimate answers."

The problem is we have our prison problem NOW. And God has been unavailable for comment. So we poor humans have to scrape by as best we can. Also...ummm, i'm sorry but i always have a problem with the whole "Don't think let God think for you" part of Christianity. I'm not sure about the whole heaven/hell thing but i DO know that *I* am in the drivers seat for my life and i'm going to do my own thinking thank you VERY much. And some of MY answers are both real AND legitimate.

Other then that we agree on the episode. They should have shown both sides but they probebly didn't have the time since UPN doesn't give them that much time. I HATE UPN ads!

Eric

Space Whales RULE!
Eric -- 1 Feb 2001, 19:41 GMT

Bliss rocked! I don't care how many disagree! Bring them on!

Maybe that's why i love Farscape so much? It's ABOUT a space whale!

Eric

David, it wasn't the brig.
Janeway216 -- 1 Feb 2001, 22:34 GMT

It was a cargo bay that Tuvok and his men had fixed up. The brig doors don't make the old TNG holodeck doors opening sound when they open, they make the normal Voyager hiss.

Yeah, I'm a nerd, I can tell where they are on the ship by the sound of the doors they go through!

216

Seven does some soul searching and Tom makes a racist comment--Yikes!
Diane -- 1 Feb 2001, 22:37 GMT

I just kept thinking of the Foto-Novela "Seeing Through Walls" that appeared on PBS in '97. Anyone else see it? It starred Roxann Dawson. Check out the website: http://www.pbs.org/itvs/fotonovelas/seeing.about.html

The Novela is about an imprisoned murderer that has a micro-chip implanted into his brain. He changes and the rest of the show deals with the consequences, specifically, what he and Dr. Puente (Dawson) experiences. Sound familiar? Guess what, Dawson did a much better job than Ryan, so did the story's creator Carlos Avilas. Walls really delved into the two main character's psyche and the consequences on those affected by the criminal's "rehabilitation."

I must say this show was ok. Ryan did an ok job and it didn't bother me, for some reason, that this was a Seven show.

The one thing I liked, as I pointed out to Shawn, was how Tom played a small, but important roll, well, for that matter, so did B'Elanna. I have two comments about those comments, positive and negative.

Let's go for the positive. Tom's line about being in the penal colony brought home the "redemption" mission of Voyager. Through Voyager, he has achieved his rehabilitation, despite the fact that he committed treason, and God only knows how many people died because of that act. The same goes for B'Elanna and the rest of the Marquis. Also, Tom's actions on Caldik Prime caused the death of three people. We don't know the circumstances, but if the reason might boarded on "criminal" depending on the society doing the judging. In old Japan, he may have been forced to take his life. Might he have been one of those being transported last night? The main "preachy" point of last night's show was on Voyager, one finds redemption.

Now, let me state the only thing that has ever irked me on Star Trek, really, nothing has every gotten my blood pressure up like this. That was Tom's statement in response to Joleg's story and how it was followed up. Tom, with B'Elanna at his side, made an extremely racist comment. Yikes! What, we forgot about last week's episode? TPTB what were you thinking. Trek, especially, is suppose to be the understanding of all situations, not naïve but understanding. Then to follow it up with proving Tom right-WRONG move TPTB. Talk about a reset button! Why not develop the story where everyone thinks it was Joleg's letter to his brother, when it was someone else's letter. I was really made last night, and believe me, it did not go unnoticed with my fellow work Voyager watchers.

Well, I am looking forward to next week Tom plays Ivanhoe, Klingon style.

Di

God, not more Seven angst.
Janeway216 -- 1 Feb 2001, 22:46 GMT

After four years, she's just done angst to death. Which is what makes it sort of misleading to call these episodes "growth" episodes; if she'd really grown, we'd be over the angst by now.

What bothered me about the episode was that it started off as a decent commentary on prisoners' rights and the death penalty, even if it was Doc preaching (why can't Harry Kim ever preach?) As I asked, do we have the right to kill one man as retaliation for him killing another? But then Seven's wonderprobes made their guest appearance, and from then on, Iko's character was written to be a parallel of Seven. And they didn't even bother making it subtle.

Seven whined enough to fill up more than her allotment of screen time, and worse, it had a been there, done that feel. Hasn't she already boo-hooed about how she was so big, bad, and nasty as a Borg? And if they'd included any more angst, that would have meant even less screen time for an already excluded ensemble.

No, after all this time I just wish Seven would get a life and move on.

216

I must have missed something here.
D'Alaire -- 1 Feb 2001, 23:36 GMT

Di, without making me watch it over again, what in the world did he say that was necessarily racist? I must not have heard it (loud air pump here does hide words when I don't have the TV blasted) or it somehow flew past me.

I've been debating otherwise regarding that scene, but that might affect my POV. Thinking about it, I'm remembering vaguely a response about Joleq's people now, but I can't remember for the life of me. Maybe it was this flippant remark that bothered David? I'd like to know.

I'm lost, Di and david.
Mr. Mac. -- 1 Feb 2001, 23:53 GMT

Both of you disliked something that Paris said. I must have missed it (Pat had the cat chasing a feather all over the sofa). I vaguely remember him saying something about a certain percentage of the colony was in prison. Could someone give me the exact statement in context? I think he may have made it with sarcasm, maybe repeating what is often said.

Mac.

comment
AChampagne -- 2 Feb 2001, 00:50 GMT

I know the comment Di was talking about. After Neelix says that 80% of the prison population is Bekaren (I think that was the name of the species) Tom responds "Perhaps they commit more crimes"

I, personally, did not get the impression that it was designed as racist. I have a few comments on this ep but I'll save them for a separate post.

Andrea

Re: Not to bad....Agree with Eric
Mindy -- 2 Feb 2001, 00:59 GMT

It was rather predictable, and I felt like TPTB were doing an "issue" show because "that's what ST great" back in the 60's, but there were redeemable things about it.

Redeemable:

I like the scenes & dialogue with Tom & B'lanna. Especially liked Tom's "When I was in New Zealand..." etc. because he's the only one who's actually been there, and what he said is SO true.

Jeri Ryan's acting ability (more below).

The fact that the "bad prisoner turned good" didn't get off, if only because it rang very true in terms of the family not being able to forgive--I heard on the news that morning that Ray Lewis wants to talk (read: apologize) to the family of the murdered people, but he was advised "not yet"...frankly, the whole scenario reminds me of the Mark Chapman parole hoopla, when he actually said, "Oh, if John was alive I know he'd forgive me." Uh, excuse me, but if John was alive you wouldn't be in jail hoping for parole, @sshole! It also reminded me of the people on Death Row who are known to be guilty, but want to be pardoned because "I found Jesus, and he has forgiven me." Good for you. Too bad you didn't find Jesus before you killed whoever it was you killed. It always rings false to me. BTW, I am NOT talking about those poor unfortunates who are innocent but didn't get fair representation, etc.

I thought it raised some interesting points about guilt and responsibility that too many people don't think about. Hopefully, some of the message got across and made at least a few of those people ruminate a little.

At least Neelix wasn't fooled by the b.s. the other bad guy fed him.

I was heartened that at least TPTB sucked in their guts and had his appeal for a lessening of his sentence denied. If it had been approved, it would have been just too much! On the other hand...(see below)

Thngs that bothered me:

I am sick of Janeway bringing up the Prime Directive when it suits her. All in one episode she said they couldn't interfere, and then by the end she had gotten an appeal for the "bad guy turned good." You either interfere or you don't. She also interfered when the cop/guard beat up the bad guy--you either stay out of it all the way or you don't. It's not like she was Johnnie Cochran and was being paid to get a killer off any way he can. Okay, I get that as Captain she does have certain responsibities to those who are aboard her ship, and of course, it was a plot contrivance so that the bad guy could get some of Janeway's nanoprobes in order to become good and thus advance the story...but it still bothered me on some gut level.

It might have been more punishment for this guy to be sentenced to life imprisonment and suffer for his guilt. Death will bring him peace...unless there is a hell for his race, in which case he is burning in the pits right now.

Seven's nanoprobes...Again? Jeesh, it's a wonder this poor Borg/human has any nanoprobes left to call her own!

It would have been stronger if the guy never even had a chance to appeal. It would have left the viewers wondering...and that is always a good way to start to find anwers.

********

All in all, a letdown after LINEAGE, but not as bad as I expected.

One thing that has crossed my mind since I saw the promos last week...with B'lanna pregnant, should she be "mixing it up?" Of course, that may be one reason why Tom fights next week instead of B'lanna (the other being that Klingons are a patriarchal society, as we discussed a couple of weeks ago.) But I am thinking of fights and dangers that the crew comes up against just in the normal course of the voyage home (no pun intended.) It would be nice to see Janeway and/or Tom tell her to "get to sickbay" (this being the "safest" place on the ship)in a dangerous (read: physically threatening) situation. Of course she would object--but I think it would play realistically.

Mindy

Repentence
AChampagne -- 2 Feb 2001, 01:00 GMT

First of all I should say at the begining that I work within our criminal justice system, fringes, but the issues grappled with this week are very close to home for me.

Generally I try to avoid some of these debbates, they can tend to get very heated and since topics like capital punishment are usually something people feel very strongly about I try to avoid an out and out argument over your side versus my side. So I will try to make my points without getting subjective.

TPTB certainly loaded the plate this week didn't they? Not only the whole issue of the death penalty to contend with, but issues of racial profiling (very newsworthy here in NJ of late), physical problems that cause behavior (I have a great deal to say on this and will get to it on a moment), circumstantial evidence convictions, appeals, vicims rights, and allowing the victims or families of the victims a say in the juducial process, prisoners civil rights. Couldn't stop at just one could they? I agree that our penal system and judicial system need some help, but this highlights one of the problems with that happening. There are varied facets to attack and try to improve and by trying to address all at once we lose our perspective and nothing gets fixed at all.

The brain thing - oh I can not begin to express how much that bothered me. It reminded me of the first mass murdered of the US. The guy who shot all those people from the clock tower at that university in Texas (if my textbook was handy I could get a name) but I'm sure you all remember who I am talking about. After he was killed in that same incident they discovered a mass in his brain. And everyone wanted to believe that it was in some way responsible for behavior that we find unconscionable. It would be nice if we could find an easy sure to all of our criminals. It would be nice to think that there is a physical reason for behavior that seems to us so bizarre as to be unreal. It is not that simple and I wish that the writers had tried to tell this story without that quick fix. It was perhaps my greatest bone of contention with this story.

Andrea

Re: Seven cries a river...Nice point about Suder, Terry. (nim)
Mindy -- 2 Feb 2001, 01:01 GMT

Re: Crime and Punishment...very nicely put, Shawn, and...
Mindy -- 2 Feb 2001, 01:06 GMT

...you are right in line with my hypothese that hopefully it will make some people think about the isue.

One minor disagreement, my dear...I don't know ANYONE who is "pro-abortion," as you put it. The term is PRO-CHOICE, Shawn...

...as in, stay out of my dialogue with God, and I'll stay out of yours.

Mindy

Huh? Di, please reiterate. I didn't hear anything racist.
Mindy -- 2 Feb 2001, 01:11 GMT

I'm not saying he didn't saying something racist...but I must have been in the kitchen or the bathroom or something.

Thanks.

Mindy

Ah, racial profiling. That's what Di meant!
Mindy -- 2 Feb 2001, 01:15 GMT

Thanks, AChampagne!!!

And as a fellow New Jersyite, I know exactly what you mean about the whole racial profiling thing.

Remember that picture of Governor Whitman?

As for my feelings about racial profiling, well they are mixed. That's all I am going to say on the subject.

Mindy

Just wanted to explain my statement.
Mindy -- 2 Feb 2001, 01:16 GMT

Unfortunately, I can understand what drives the cops (especially the state troopers here in NJ, land of the "Narcotic Express," i.e., the NJ Turnpike, but it still pisses me off.

Mindy

Re: Repentence
Shadda -- 2 Feb 2001, 02:23 GMT

I watched this while sleep deprived, and am writing this, even more sleep deprived. That's a disclaimer incase I say something stupid

I did miss little bits and pieces of this show, but that didn't bother me because I found the parts I saw to be, well, not riviting.

The part the bothered me the most was the whole "racial profiling" part. Now, as I say I may have missed something there near the end, but it seemed to me that they brought that up then proved it not to be true. Neelix tries to help a man who claims he is innocient and was convicted because of his race, then it turnes out he is minpulating and using Neelix to escape.

I'm tired of the doctor. I used to really like that character, but now I just find him annoying. Then, of course, there's "Seven saves the day" syndrome. When he called Seven to sickbay and said he needed her to save the prisoner I almost screamed. How many times have we heard that line on this show? Almost as many times as we have heard the line, "shields are down xx%".

Actually, it wasn't bad, just not very good. I'll, maybe, watch it again on Sunday and see if it improves with age, or at least with alert viewing.

Shadda

Getting ticked off at an episode
david g -- 2 Feb 2001, 03:03 GMT

It doesnt bother me at all that they used Seven's nanoprobes... mean, she is Borg, and it's not implausible that nanoprobes might have some value, imo....VOY has been interested in nanoprobe-tech since the pre-Seven SCORPION, so the use of them doesnt partcularly bother me.

Still--and thanks Di and AChampagne for clarifying this point--it did really, really bother me that Tom said "Maybe they commit more crimes." I was just annoyed that, w/out knowing this race at all, Tom was so eager to go in there and condemn the people.

Maybe they all SHOULD be routinely condemned...what bothered me was the avid willingness to condemn. i love Tom, but i think HE's the most inconsistently written character on VOY--

i can never figure out if Im going to get the deeply kind Tom of Faces or Lineage or even Thirty Days, or the frat boy of Spirit Folk or this ep.

david g

Re: OMIGOD! Its Dodger!!!
Deb47 -- 2 Feb 2001, 06:01 GMT

Thanks for the heads up, D'Alaire.

I didn't get to see this till tonight, and thrilled to read that (NIM). I suspect if you hadn't warned me, I would have wracked my brains half the night, wondering WHO the heck that guy was under the latex.

Well, I found this to be a pleasant episode. "Filler, but nice filler." to quote/paraphrase the Bostonian on board.

To be fair, I also saw this as a continued journey upon the arc of Seven's redemption, just as I viewed last week's ep as a needful milestone in B'Elanna's redemption.

I can't recall who (Di?) above mentioned that the real story of this ep wasn't "Dodger's/Iko's" redemption, but the fact that Voyager is itself a place where redemption is possible... if someone is willing... and able.

I understand the Seven fatigue factor, and the EMH cringe factor, and won't bother to answer that disgust.

But, it was nice, to my way of thinking, to actually "see" Seven actively explore her feelings about her past.

In season 4, when Seven came aboard, she told B'Elanna (?"Day of Honor") and Tom (?) on different occasions that she did not "feel" anything for her victims. No remorse, no responsiblity.

In season 5's "Dark Frontier", we learn that she can't be an active party to the forced assimilation of an alien world, or any party to the assimliation of humanity.

By season 6, in "Memorial", we learn that Seven DOES feel remorse for her past sins, and yet... for all the souls she put into Borg He!! her comments are no more than an "aside" to the tortured Neelix's pain. Its his feelings that are paramount in that scene.

So now, in season 7, we finally start to get down to the nitty gritty of what makes Seven tick.

She does remember her assimilation, and it was horrendous. Even "more" horrendous, because she knows she put others through the same He!!.

Think Picard's angst at the end of that trip home to the vineyard.

Recall what Janeway said to her at the end of Unimatrix Zero II? "If I ever imply that its been easy on you, these last few years, remind me of today."

And Janeway was only talking about the removal of a few spinal clamps!

Seven remembers, it was horrendous, and she has to live with it for the rest of her life.

I must say... I sighed at what I thought was the end of this show. When Janeway walked out of Astrometrics with the Warden and the prisoner.

"Where the he!! is she going?" I wanted to know! Can't she see Seven is in pain here? Shades of leaving Seven to deal with the death of "One"... alone 2 years ago!

Ahh, but for once, TPTB came through with a genuine JANEWAY moment.

The Captain, you see, came back.

She offered to listen.

She DID listen.

To paraphrase a poster from last week's "Lineage" discussion... she UNDERSTOOD what she was listening to.

More than understood, she reminded Seven that as "glorious" a life as she might be living now on Voyager, she HAD paid a debt to the lives she took while in the collective. With 18 (Sorry KJ, not 20) years of her own life. (Not to mention with the lives of her mother, her father, and her Lover...Axum.)

As for other points.

I had no problem, with the "morality play" this week.

I don't "live" this discussion day in and day out, so its not as tired for me as it's obviously been for others.

"Telegraphed" though it was... I thought it was well done for what it tried (IMO) to do. "Start" a discussion, not end it.

Neelix showed us the problem of circumstantial evidence, and the problem of listening with your heart and not your head. He reminded us the problem of "an eye for an eye... until the whole world is blind" mentality. He also helped to point out the problem of how this penal system diminshes me.

Was the circumstantial evidence guy guilty? was he innocent? Was he innocent of THIS crime, but willing to kill to escape cause he was a "rebel" or guilty of OTHER violent crimes?

I don't know.

Neelix doesn't know.

But what we both know, is that the dude played Neelix's soft heart like a violin, and Neelix finally saw it.

Its not for Neelix to judge the legal system, or to second guess this conviction... and while he can feel sorry for hm and pray for him, he can't endanger the ship for him. Not again.

Too bad Neelix didn't learn from the EMH's similar mistake in "Flesh & Blood". Don't assign your value system to the alien, before you have proof it fits.

I also liked the fact that the "bad" guy was "bad", in the beginning. I loved the fact that he threatened to kill the warden's children... showing us "how bad" to the bone he really was.

I loved the fact that the warden was "forced" by Janeway to FOLLOW his own legal system's rules AND to help draft an appeal. I liked the fact that when the appeal failed, Janeway "followed" the rules and planned to turn the prisoner over... and that in the end, it wasn't Janeway or Seven but the prisoner that opened the warden's eyes to "other" possibilites.

And... frankly, I liked the fact that in this system, where the victims families do have power (whether or not they should is a discussion for another day)... they did not "forgive".

It made me think of the TNG ep, where Picard tried to convince Worf to save the Romulan, and he refused.

I liked the fact, that TPTB let the family do "the politcially incorrect" thing, just like they let Worf do it. (Not that I agreed with it.)

And "technobabble" though it may have been, I enjoyed the "reason" the bad prisoner "went" good.

There are theories that in SOME people, the lack of conscience is related to a disconnect... and there certainly are wonderful examples in nature about "one portion" of the brain being disconnected" from the rest. Certain strokes, which will let someone "understand" what you are saying, but won't let them speak, or will only let them speak in singsong.

It's therefore conceivable that in the "attempt" to deal with "one" problem, the EMH would let the genii out of the bottle and develop another problem.

If this ep wasn't about Seven, I'd have enjoyed a little soul searching on the Doc's part, that he created more suffering for the prisoner WITH his treatment, than before...

But I digress, and we are experiencing EMH fatigue anyway.

I especially liked the end (again), for the final scene between Neelix and the Kotiskot prisoner.

(Sorry, names escape me)

I loved the fact that the prisoner "played" the nanoprobe game... "heal me so I can appeal, too." simply because I felt his cavalier attitude showed us the difference between his "I have a conscience, but choose not to use it", and Dodger/Iko's I have never touched my conscience before today".

As for the nanoprobes...

Lets see.

Season 4: HARRY's nanoprobes repell the 8472.

Season 4 : Seven's nanoprobes healed Neelix, and she was POSSIBLY attacked for nanoprobe harvesting.

Season 5: she donated some to the "lets repell some 8472's" fund, and she tried to use them to disable a warhead ... and failed.

Season 6... season 6...

I honestly don't recall them in season 6.

Season 7... they appear again, like a plot point put down for too long.

Kind of like TPTB bringing up the existance of the Maquis again ("Repression") or the gel packs ("Shattered") or B'Elanna's father ("Lineage") or the New Zealand penal colony(Repentence).

I thought it was well done, and "appropriate" to the story, given what we know they could do for Neelix. (Whether the EMH SHOULD have needed them, for such a "problem", is a different kettle of nanoprobes.)

So... from one who does not shy from the Doc, or from Seven, or from overdone modern controversy... I must say I enjoyed this week's show.

Was it a homerun?

No.

Does every ep have to be?

Would be nice, but this was NO "Favorite Son"... and for that I'm grateful.

D47

Maybe not, Deb
Vickie -- 2 Feb 2001, 15:30 GMT

Deb wrote: I suspect if you hadn't warned me, I would have wracked my brains half the night, wondering WHO the heck that guy was under the latex.

I'm not all that good with names and faces and I didn't know ahead of time that Jeff Kober was one of the guest AOTW. However, I recognized him immediately. As soon as they showed the close up of him holding the knife to Seven's throat I said, "Hey! That's Dodger!" His facial features are quite distinctive, even through all that latex, I guess.

Vickie

True, Vickie... but I AM getting old, and its been years...
Deb47 -- 2 Feb 2001, 22:38 GMT

(read since they were first run) since I saw China Beach...

Gosh, what a great show that was, from our alcoholic heroine, to the morgue attendent, to the Doc (Please state the nature of the medical emergency) to the prostitute with the MBA... (No, I haven't watched CSI yet, but may just need to for a Marg fix).

His face was distinctive, even under the latex, but it was his voice that really grabbed me.

Now... where's Boonie?

D47

Here you go-- the Mess scene
pixie -- 3 Feb 2001, 08:27 GMT

One Note before the scene: I think the true irony is that since being in the Delta Quad, Tom has been wrongly convicted of murder in three episodes, ExPostFacto, the Chute and Fair Trade. Its so funny that he would be so cavalier in his attitude to the condemned prisoners. Of course I'm not surprised at this laspe since this writer seems to only care about Seven and doesn't seem to know anything about the other characters. I do not buy that Seven felt the implant been installed. Borg drones are not consious, or self-aware. They are not sentient/sapient beings. As for B'Elanna's three lines, it looks like she was interested in gathering more information rather than making any snap judgments.

SCENE - Copied off the P/T collective board...

Tom and B'ELanna are at the counter trying to get food, while Neelix is cooking.

Tom: Do you have to be a criminal to get something to eat around here??

Neelix: Sorry, dinner will be ready in about fifteen minutes

(Tom and B'Elanna open the glass doors keeping the kitchen closed, in order to pester neelix a little more)

B'Elanna: You said that 15 minutes ago!

Neelix: Did you know the Nigeans govern a sector of space occupied by several different humanoid species?

Tom: If we say yes, will you feed us?

Neelix: One of those species is the Bencarins, they occupy just 10% of Nigean space, but take up nearly 80% of the space in Nigean prisons.

Tom: Maybe they commit more crimes?

Neelix: Not according to Choelek, one of the prisoners

B'Elanna: You think he was given a harder sentence becuase of his species

Neelix: According to this, Bencarins are ten times more likely to be executed for their crimes than Nigeans

B'Elanna: where'd you get that? (takes the padd from neelix)

Neelix: I contacted the Nigean government, told them I was interested in a cultural exchange. Among other things, they let me access data on their criminal justice system. It all supports what Choelek told me.

Tom: (exhale) Neelix...

Neelix: I know what you're thinking

Tom: that you're the softest touch in the Delta Quadrent

Neelix: These are the transcripts from Choelek's trail. He was convicted on circumstancial evidence!

Tom: Let me guess, he was in the wrong place, at the wrong time?

Neelix: Apparently!

Tom: Neelix, when I was in the federation penal colony, EVERYBOBY had a story. I never put much stock in them, you shouldn't either.

Neelix: How many of those people were sentenced to die?

_____

As president of People Ethically Against Seven Epsiodes (PEASE pronounced as Peace -- the feeling one gets if TPTB would lay off SEven), I missed 99% of this episode except for miracoulously this one scene.

The things you see/hear the second time through.
Deb47 -- 3 Feb 2001, 15:54 GMT

Little things...

Like how Iko wore his suit unzipped, with sleeves pushed up, until he took control and "sent himself" back to prison. After that, he looked "clean cut", even more so than the Choelek character that previously outshined him.

Like how we saw four (?) new security officers this week... and poor Ayala and the one AKA Ensign Smirk (from Counterpoint )still didn't get to deliver the one line allowed their team.

The continuity.

Doc's reference to Voyager NOT being the "Barge of the Dead".

Neelix's playing the Kotiskot game. (Sure, we've only seen him play it season 7 with Seven, but I doubt that was the FIRST time Naomi's Godfather ever played that game.)

Tom's penal colony reference.

I liked it, because Tom DID pick the time he WAS guilty as an example of how prisoners act in prison. Sure... when he was unjustly accused of murder in the DQ, he protested "just" as loudly... but the fact that he related to his experience when he was "rightly" convicted tells me that he understands how guilty people can conn the gullible.

The remarks that cut so sweetly...

Like when the warden excused his beating of the prisoner with words claiming "violence" is the only thing "they" understand... and Janeway remarked "You seem to have a pretty good grasp of it yourself!"

The Doc's dancing around Seven's "lack" of compassion for the prisoner at first. It seemed he was going to say something to the effect that Seven was treated better... but left it hanging.

I "laughed" at his later self serving/amnestic claim that "killing" is wrong no matter what the circumstances. Like many "sentient" beings, he conveniently forgot his threat to kill the administrator in "Critical Care", or his "murder" of the Holographic leader in "Flesh & Blood".

We won't sign him up with the Quakers "quite" yet.

I also liked musing over the "80% of the prison population are Benkarans" comment.

Why were they there?

Was it simply a "racist" mentality as has been suggested on the board?

Was it because "they simply commit more crimes" as Tom suggested?

What if it was because in a legal system that allows the victim/victim's family to sentence... the victims of Benkaren violence always opted for "revenge/prison" instead of restitution NOT because the Benkaren criminal was destitute, but because the culture didn't place much value on restitution?

Now, what if most of the victims of Benkaren violence were Benkarens?

Is that still racist, to have 80% of the population being Benkaren?

(Bet Marc Rich {name?} is glad Politicians aren't Benkarens.)

How far did Neelix's study of that culture "really" go? Or is he guilty of foisting the racial guilt of his own past onto another society's?

But, before we blame everything on the Benkarens, we should also remember Neelix's question (reminder?) to Tom regarding how many of his fellow New Zealand prisoners were there for murder/execution?

Hmmm.

Then there were "The Looks".

The unspoken opinion, batted from Chakotay, to Janeway, to Tuvok... when the warden revealed he was escorting these men to their executions.

Tom's look, after being reminded of the gravity of the prisoners plight.(see above)

Seven's sidelong "look" when she heard Iko talk about his self loathing as he recalled the noises the young father made when he killed him.

Her nod, and the EMH's "gulp" while listening to Iko's appeal to the family.

Neelix's look of disgust, when he finally realized he'd caught Choelek in a lie. The man who nobly "refused" to allow Neelix to pay for his freedom, because it would mean admitting his guilt, now wanted to undergo the Doc's procedure, since it would absolve him of any sins he'd committed before the procedure.

You know what they say, give a man enough rope, and he'll eventually hang himself with it!

I had missed Janeway's "ever so slight" shake of the head "no" the first time through, as she came to deliver the "bad"news to Iko & Seven at the end. Thanks to whomever pointed that one out in the above thread.

I hadn't missed, however, her compassionate look at Seven, after delivering the "bad news", and just before Iko's final speech.

I also enjoyed the obvious and (initially to me) not so obvious mirrors with Seven's life/relationships on Voyager.

The obvious ones have been hit on already.

The first (less obvious to me) one that stood out, was when Iko told Seven... "You were never afraid of me, even when I tried to kill you."

(Shades of early Seven's memory of Janeway!)

The next, was when Iko begged her to stay with him in sickbay, because he was "scared".

(Makes me recall "The Gift" when Janeway came to the Brig to see a partially deborgified Seven. Seven had "called" Janeway to her by trying to throw herself repeatedly into the forcefield. Soon after, came one of the few & yet most touchyfeely Janeway-Seven moments of the entire 4 years.)

The "you've activated his conscience" scene with Janeway and the Doc... as Seven stands in the background absorbing everything.

("He's not the same person" line Seven utters was a perfect "Janewayism" she's undoubtedly heard in reference to herself for 4 years. Janeway's influence on Seven has been as inexorable on her psyche, as Seven's Nanoprobes had been on Iko's "birth defect". I wonder, if the Doc'/Seven's refusal to "take out the nanoprobes" is also tantamount to Janeway's refusal to return her to the Borg?)

Janeway's reminder that "just because he's capable" of controlling his violent actions...

(See Seven's actions throughout season 4),

...doesn't mean he's WILLING to controll his actions.

(See Seven's actions throughout season 4!)

Finally.... it was how we saw Seven's life with Iko become mirrored in Seven's life with Janeway.

I thought it was so telling, that Seven could after only a day, "confess" her crimes and feelings to Iko... a fellow murderer, when she had never done so despite 4 years with Janeway... a Starfleet officer.

Perhaps "Iko", a similar being, could understand and not be so judgemental... not so scary?

But in the end... Seven finally spoke those same fears to "Onella"... that she was unworthy of the second chance she recieved on Voyager...

Sigh.

and Janeway came through.

Imagine, how "awesome" a character B'Elanna would have been, had she grown up in an atmosphere filled with love AND insight?

Perhaps if it didn't come on the heels of last weeks 10 on a scale of 10 (IMO) ep, it would not "suffer" as much in comparison...

Who knows?

But I'm definately going to have to move it up a notch, from "nice filler" to "worhtwhile chapter".

Hey, after all this time, it should be obvious that I go for this kind of schmaltz!

D47

Here's an interesting review.
pixie -- 4 Feb 2001, 06:59 GMT

http://www.janeway.org/reviews/repentance.shtml

Re: Here's an interesting review.
Deb47 -- 4 Feb 2001, 17:07 GMT

Hmmm. The J team site is being standoffish... I can't access the link this morning.

Another review can be found by "Michael" at cinescape. See feb 1st posting date.

http://www.cinescape.com

D47

Re: Repentence and racial profiling
AChampagne -- 4 Feb 2001, 20:31 GMT

This comment may potentially get me in hot water, but this is my biggest beef with the whole racial profiling thing. It happens, I can not begin to claim that it does not. I also can not in any way say that it is right. It's not. But not every person of the profiled race is innocent. On occassion it so happens that the person has done something. Then those wonderful statistics are thrown up saying look at how awful the oppressing race is, they keep blaming our race. ANd in that instance the guy/girl has done it. But that seems to get glossed over. I actually rather liked that in this instance, he as guilty (of something) and not the persecuted innocent. Doesn't change the fact that the Vigeans profile based on race, doesn't chance that it is wrong, but similarly as an entire race can't be guilty an entire race also can't be innocent.

Andrea

It was the whole racial profiling thing that bothered me
Diane -- 5 Feb 2001, 15:28 GMT

Tom's comments smaked of it. I was very disappointed in TPTB for reinforcing racial profiling. Its use was wrong, especially for Star Trek.

Maybe it is because I work with it everyday that I am so sensitive to it.

Sorry I didn't respond sooner, I took a long to weekend to visit Mom and Dad.

Di

It was the whole racial profiling thing that bothered me
Mrs. Mac -- 5 Feb 2001, 16:18 GMT

Di, I have to completely disagree. I saw or heard absolutely nothing in Tom's comment that indicated he was racial profiling or even just being racial. The man married a Klingon! He was merely suggesting a very blunt reason. He didn't even sound sarcastic. After he said it and then Neelix read from his PADD Tom took a moment to glance at it.

80% of them were probably in prison there because they did commit crimes. There was never any suggestion that any of these prisoners were innocent and unlawfully jailed.

Racial Profiling means that law officers "look" at a certain group and arrest or detain them simply because they belong to that group. This has nothing to do with Tom's comment.

Mrs. Mac

The Brain Thing
Ronit -- 5 Feb 2001, 16:18 GMT

Andrea wrote: The brain thing - oh I can not begin to express how much that bothered me. It reminded me of the first mass murdered of the US. The guy who shot all those people from the clock tower at that university in Texas (if my textbook was handy I could get a name) but I'm sure you all remember who I am talking about. After he was killed in that same incident they discovered a mass in his brain. And everyone wanted to believe that it was in some way responsible for behavior that we find unconscionable. It would be nice if we could find an easy sure to all of our criminals. It would be nice to think that there is a physical reason for behavior that seems to us so bizarre as to be unreal. It is not that simple and I wish that the writers had tried to tell this story without that quick fix. It was perhaps my greatest bone of contention with this story.

Actually, this was what I liked best about the episode -- but then I didn't take it literally. I thought it was a clumsy metaphor for what little we do know about brain biochemistry and its effect on behavior.

No, you can't just inject nanoprobes and bring a conscience on-line -- and we never will. However, we do know that XYY males are more likely to end up in prison. Death row inmates, in addition to all the other factors such as child abuse, drug use, previous violent behavior, also experienced serious head injuries at rates much higher than those of the general population.

Does it excuse murder? NO. But I firmly believe that you can't ignore it either.

I'm glad they addressed this issue, even in such a back@sswards manner.

Ronit

Mrs. Mac, It was when he said "Maybe 'THEY' commit more crimes" when I cringed
Diane -- 5 Feb 2001, 17:41 GMT

I couldn't believe TPTB put those words in Tom's mouth. You are correct, he is married to a Klingon and has always been the one to find the positive in people. Gee, look at his comments to Seven in Day of Honor. This is what bothered me.

When someone classifies an entire group with "they" and classifes that group as one that "commits more crime" or has a lower IQ or is dishonest, etc., then that person is profiling.

My jobs at the SBA have always involved fighting profiling: business size, businesses owned by handicapped individuals, or women-owned businesses, or businesses owned by minorities. I have experienced these statements first hand and know the damage it has done.

I wish TPTB had approached this subject with having Tom tell Neelix just to be careful, that many prisioners will tell you anything to get your attention and pity. The "Maybe they commit more crimes" line should have been in the script.

Di

Was he profiling or was he in essence saying
Shadda -- 6 Feb 2001, 00:47 GMT

"you don't know anything about these species Neelix"? Is it more prejudicial to assume that the captives, can't remember their names, are being profiled, or that their captors, can't remember their names either, are being prejudiced? Either one is a prejudicial act. Neelix lept to the assumption that his friend was being unjustly held, and that his species was being unjustly tried and convicted. Perhaps they do commit more crimes. We know nothing about them. They never bothered to tell us more so that we could make a judgement. They were too busy trying to get us to weep over Seven's guilt.

My point is that assuming that they weren't being profiled was just as prejudicial as assuming they were. Tom really wasn't doing either. He was questioning Neelix's assumption. He said "maybe" they commit more crimes, the unsaid other half of that statement is "maybe they don't". Had he said, "They commit more crimes", that would have been profiling. "Maybe" is simply asking the question.

It tweaked you, I understand. As david g said, after Janeway, Tom is the most inconsistently written character on the show. I have to agree with that. It really does seem out of character for him. Of course, I'm wondering why there is so little of Tom in this episode. He has been in jail at least once every season since the first episode, so logically a show about prisoners and crime and punishment should have great resonance with that character. They seem to think that having him say something about New Zealand was continuity. How ludicrous! The lazy man's continuity.

Okay, no rant. See, I stopped myself, just in time

Shadda

Actually Shadda,the dubious distinction belongs to Tom
david g -- 6 Feb 2001, 02:38 GMT

I actually think Tom is THE most inconsistently written character on VOY...

though i like Seven more than you do, i do think snce she came onboard, the non-main cast has suffered...none more so than Tom, who never seemed to especially *interest* the guy writers like Braga...

there have been good post S3 Tom eps, imo--Thirty Days and Alice and esp Course: Oblivion (i know you think Tom got shortchanged in that one, but i still think he got some good moments)--but there has been a general lack of interest in him, too...till this season, where he at least seems to be a player again.

i think Braga, surprisingly enough, did better by Harry Kim and Neelix, both of whom got superb eps in Timeless and Mortal Coil, and decent eps in The Disease (my minority opinion) and Once Upon a Time...Tuvok had one good episode in S4 (Random Thoughts) and one in S5 (Gravity).

and Chak? LONG story...

david g

Your absolutely right david
Shadda -- 6 Feb 2001, 15:19 GMT

While Harry, Neelix and Chakotay may not get as much screen time as Tom, they are certainly more consistently written. Tom seems to be the workhorse they use to move a plot along, even if what they have him do is totally alien to his character. Yes, since season 3 he has had a few good episodes, most of the time you just never know what he is going to do.

I didn't really think he got short changed in Course: Oblivion, I simply thought that there would have been true irony and poignancy in having him be the last one alive. Having Harry be the last one standing just didn't have the same impact. CO was one of the few times Tom was written consistent with his character of the first three seasons.

Your right about Braga. He certainly didn't have any interest in the male characters.

Ack, I have to go get ready for work, why can't I just do this all day?

Shadda

The Man Who Loves Women
david g -- 7 Feb 2001, 02:31 GMT

Interestingly, Braga writes superbly for Janeway and Seven, and, at times, for B'Ellana (he did after all write one of my favorite--the only (other than Prototype)--Janeway-B'Ellana es, PARALLAX...he also writes wonderfully for the Borg Queen.

Of the men, Braga seems to like Tuvok (Flashback, even Cathexis) and the Doc best...

i dont really like his work with Tom or Chak, but he writes sublimely for Janeway, Seven, and the Borg Queen...

david g