The Coffee Nebula Board is for the discussion of Star Trek: Voyager and other sci-fi/cult shows. This is its Archive of episode discussions, top ten lists, fan fiction, and other miscellaneous musings.
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"Who would have thought that this eclectic group of voyagers could actually become a family. Starfleet, Maquis, Klingon, Talaxian, hologram, Borg... even Mr Paris." |
LineageI really, really loved "Lineage". Of course, I'm a sucker for this kind of story and I love both B'Elanna's characters. Still, I think the story was well written and acted by all involved. Frankly, McNeill's acting has slipped in the last few years. Here he finally showed some of the interesting tenderness and sensitivity like he routinely exhibited in early shows like Real Life and Faces. I keep on looking for him to show his recent perchant for being insensitive and rather dim but he didn't. Of course, Dawson is alway great when given some decent material. The actress playing the young B'Elanna was pretty good also. I was afraid that the show would go as Pixie hinted at, that young B'Elanna was actually treated well and was overly sensitive. She did overreact with her cousins but her father's words really did cut to the bone. Good idea to charge her feelings about being Klingon not to strangers' prejudice but her father's betrayal. It was nice to see Tom and B'Elanna written as real people for a change, not two stranger about whom one wonders why they are a couple. Frankly, B'Elanna's actions in this episode reveal a deep-seated fear that B'Elanna has about abandonment. Obviously, that Tom will leave like her father. I would have gone further and have her say to Tom that her father probably felt as Tom does now when he married her mother. Her Dad didn't seem like a bad person, just weak and selfish. Even the Doctor was not his usual caricature of himself. I expected him to throw a fit about being altered but he responded with compassion and understanding. That final scene was perfect, especially when B'Elanna picked him as the godfather. I guess I don't have anything to say about the gene manipulation idea. I do find it interesting that B'Elanna wanted to change her daughter's appearance but she never has changed her own. I guess that she can have pride in being herself but still can't stand the idea of her daughter suffering. I may be biased but this was a great Voyager episode IMHO. The best show in a few years. LINEAGE: Pain and Delight, in a hard-hitting, difficult episode First order of business--thank god for Ken Biller. Under his guidance, Voyager has gained a much-desired equilibrium. Busy, complex, packed with interest, Voyager episodes this season have a lot going on in them. i commend him, i really do. LINEAGE has flaws, but it's a brilliant, even a darin episode...did i LIKE it? well, i liked, really enjoyed he first two acts...then it became depressing and, well, questionable...in ways im not quite sure how i feel about...still, i came away impressed, and with moistened eyes. i LOVED all the busy interactions in this ep--and the continuity galore. Icheb, Seven, and B'Ellana, B'Ellana and Tom, B'Ellana and the Doc, the Doc w/B'Ellana and Tom, Chak, Janeway, and B'Ellana, Neelix and Tom, Tom and Tuvok, Tom and Harry, Chak and B'Ellana (remembering that old friendship), Janeway and Tom and B'Ellana, Harry and Tom, Tom and Seven and Icheb..and so, i love this complex, busy crew and its interactions. in addition to being superbly acted by the leads, this episode hada wonderful cohesion..everything falls into pace, each scene builds from the previous one and anticpates the next, the flashbacks are wonderfully integrated... i know people are going to (have already) complained about this episode's depiction of B'Ellana's relationship to her Kilingon heritage...but for me, it works, for the most part. most interestingly, the episode creates a Torres father who is exactly rght for the character...he's likable and smooth--but there's also a touch of the creepily TOO-smooth, of someone used to comforting w/out being inwardly happy...iwas able to completely believe the actor's portrayal and his relationship to his daughter...the young actress playing girl-B'Elanna was very fine, convincing me completely. here's where i think the episode misfires, but in an honorable way...i dont believ that Torres, no matter how angry, would reprogram the Doc...esp in light f all THOSE Doc issues...still, i thought her last scene with him was very touching, and almost redemptive. i also liked Tom a lot in this ep...i thought he was very believably confused and angry. again, i could see some people being po'd about his insistence on what Torres should do--but again, i think his heart's in the right lac, and he IS the father of the child, and has a right to be concerned about what happens to the child. this of course raises the huge ethical issue--IS B'Ellana entitled to genetically alter her child? hmm...i have a feeling i'll be showing this ep to my writing students at some point. overall, i was extremely impressed by this episode...disturbed, esp by Torres's inethical programming ofthe Doc...but impressed nonetheless. VOY is really taking chances, and i think it deserves credit for doing so, in the classic TOS tradition. david g Re: LINEAGE (Spoilers) I'll dive in first. Which hardly ever happens, but hey I will bite. I really enjoyed this ep! I was curious at first what about that camping trip was bugging B'Elanna so. The cousins didn't seem to be doing anything all that mean. I liked the fact that at the end it was her father who was unintenionally the cruelest. So nicely done. I liked the fact that it was a mini-version of just how stuff like this mushrooms. First the genetic resequencing was a marvelous technique for solving a debilitating problem (and I loved that Docs slip about the baby being a girl very cute), then it was a cure for appearance characteristics. It strikes me as just how it happens only not quite so quickly. I thought that RDM and RD did fabulous jobs this week. And I loved the entire ship being so excited for them. Liked Tom sleeping on Harry's couch that was really cute, nice reminder that they are good friends. I think the Doc was a sweet choice for godfather. And finally, one nit. Naomi is of mixed heritage isn't she? I think there should have been some mention of how easily she has adapted to life on Voyager, being born there and different. I was waiting for a scene with her and B'Elanna or would that have been too cliched? - wait that a different show that has a thing with cliches never mind. Okay that's enough to get the ball rolling Andrea And to add to your point, Terry, even in the great FACES, human B'Ellanna is torn about being reintegrated with her Klingon half... i dont LIKE what this episode says about B'Ellana's instability, but it is done with conviction and plausibility. david g Both B'Elanna's characters?? I haven't seen it, but am glad you liked it. It gives me a hope. By both B'Elanna's characters do you mean adult and young B'Elanna? I think it'd be redundant to say I loved it. ...But even if one didn't like this one (for whatever reasons), they'd be hard-pressed to even tell me it wasn't fabulously acted by RD and RDM. Wow. Wow. Wow. They just blew the screen off my TV! I rarely say it like this, but... P/T RULES! Did I say I absolutely adored this episode yet? That hour just flew by! I couldn't believe it was ending when I looked and the clock read 9:45! Now, there has been some contention that B'Elanna should have had some extrordinarily bad-@ss trauma in order to make her go to the extremes that does does here. I argued against this idea, believing (sadly from personal experience) that it doesn't take all that much to haunt a child and affect their lives. I think what B'Elanna experienced on the camping trip alone was bad enough--and indeed, it was that which became the issue at hand. She was (rightly felt for a child--her father, the dolt, should have been more careful) totally betrayed, humiliated, and hated by her father, who she adored. She carried this through her life, internalized it as she does so well, eventually severing her relationship with her mother as well. D@mn right she wouldn't want history to repeat itself, no matter what the chance of that happening would be. --Though I do have to get to sleep, and can't get into the ethical debate right now, I will say I do understand why she would come to such a decision. I personally don't agree with it--but what do I know, right? I know that--of course--it was resolved, and was thrilled with how they did that, with events, with T&B, but especially with B'Elanna. Her relieved and unburdened smile in the end simply lifted my heart. After all, it wasn't the child herself nor her appearance that was the problem. This was an issue of trust that B'Elanna had lost, and brutally--trust in herself. It was an issue of fear--of abandonment and betrayal... Wow again. I can't say that enough. Tom here was just as I'd have expected him--and not the dolt B'Elanna's father had sadly turned out to be. --And not a patsy, either. It's one thing to think he "pushes" B'Elanna about owning up to her heritage (which I still don't agree with). But he definately doesn't let her roll over him with it, either. He stands his ground and yet does it for love of her, and now their child. He's overwhelmed, but he handles it--wants and makes every attempt to handle it. In the end, he does come to understand, and he does it well, with strength and dignity enough for them both. Yes, he does understand, and truly, truly loves her--as she does him. If this ever showed, it was throughout this ep. Just beautiful. Did I...yeah, I think I said I loved this ep. Okay, it's 10:30, and I'm sure I've muddled my way through this already. I'll have to pick it up tomorrow, or respond to other people. So, in short, I thought this was a great character piece, tremendously performed and felt to a huge degree by me (who did, BTW, read that script, which was very, very close to what we got) and two kleenex by the end. Great supporting roles by the rest of the cast, too--giving everyone a little bit of time, well-placed and appropriately. More on that later. I could pick one nit: The flashbacks weren't as powerful as they could have been--not a content problem, but the acting simply paled in comparison to RD and RDM's performances. Anything would have in this case. They were just amazing tonight--and I've worshipped them for years. It's funny. I actually feel like thanking people for making this ep! Okay. Bedtime. Must get sleep even if I don't want to leave this. More later. (happy, contented sigh...mental note to make extra copy of ep on Saturday so I don't wear out my main tape.) One little correction. I skipped a word somehow. It should read: She was (rightly felt for a child--her father, the dolt, should have been more careful) totally betrayed, humiliated, and felt hated by her father, who she adored. Nope, twas a type. Meant to both "Tom's and " characters. (NIM) I don't know if you'll like it. B'Elanna does act irrationally here and expose some self-loathing. I get the feeling that you like to see her as a strong, proud person. LINEAGE had some nasty undertones, but i *think* i liked it... ...if anything it showed that Voyager is still willing to TRY to say something. First of all i really thought RD and RDM did a fantastic acting job! I didn't think our gang still had it in them, i'm glad they pulled it off. The issue of genetic alteration is quickly becoming less science fiction and more and more closer to fact and this episode covered all the ground very nicely. But here is where the show is weakens... B'elanna just wouldn't do this. Maybe, maybe the B'elanna from Caretaker but not NOW. She has been a near perfect crewmember and she is friends with the Doc. When you get down to it she raped Doc. Somebody she has defended many times and she casualy rips open his brains. Of course lets not forget the betrayl of the man she loves in doing this to her child. And while we are on that subject, i can NOT buy this marrage at all. Voyager seems to want to show us time and time again that they are really a bad, BAD match! This show went beyond that and showed B'elanna needs some quiet time in a padded room almost! *sheesh* I need to think about this one some more. Right now i can say i enjoyed it, but those nasty undertones....i don't know. If this were any other show i would say i want to see what happins next week but this IS Voyager! We will see.... Eric You raise excellent points, Eric, but for me... the execution makes this a superb episode...even if im not at all sure i like what it dredges up about B'Ellana... which i CAN however accept as plausible... david g Re: LINEAGE had some nasty undertones, but i *think* i liked it... The following are only my opinions. I agree with almost everything you said, Eric, and I have a few more issues. THE GOOD. The acting was great. I've always enjoyed Dawson's performances. She almost makes the episode work. I also think that episodes involving B'Elanna tend to intrigue me more or leave me torn lately about how I feel. The young B'Elanna Torres was well cast and well acted. The young actress definitely had some of Dawson's mannerisms. However, the child was too old. Faces, Eye of the Needle and Extreme Risk all peg B'Elanna's abandonment by her father at around age 5-6, not 12. This is not a nitpick but a fundmental change in a character's backstory, just as increasing Seven age from 6-7 to 14 for when she was assimilated would be extremely problematic. I liked the Doc in this episode. There was a tenderness in his interactions without the usual meglomania. In particular I enjoyed the final scene where the fetus kicks and he seems genuinely moved by the fetal movement and awed by the miracle of pregnancy. Also the way he accepted the role as godfather and the way he and B'Elanna were elated by the CGI projection (for more on the CGI please see the UGLY). Tom acutally had a good outing here. He wasn't the overbearing jerk I've come to loathe these past feww seasons. His reactions were believable. He was sympathetic to me and I kinda liked how he and B'Elanna reacted to news of the pregnancy. THE BAD The rampant sexist steroetypes running through this episode were trully distrubing and unacceptable. B'Elanna is treated as a hysterical, emotionally overwrought and physically disabled due to her pregnancy. I can't believe that Janeway tried to relieve B'Elanna of duty or that B'Elanna was fainting. Kira who acted as surogate from a fully human fetus didn't have all these problems. Why isn't B'Elanna going to have any Klingon symptoms (Kira sneezed)? The worst is that B'Elanna's arguments and her aberant behavior is dismissed as the hormones of a pregnant woman. More on B'Elanna's behavior in the Ugly. In Flesh and Blood, I also thought that Janeway's light sentencing of the Doc was related to her belief that the Doc couldn't be anthing more than his subroutines. I don't think that B'Elanna is sympathetic in this episode, only Dawson's acting kept B'Elanna from being dislikeable. I thought it was funny that B'Elanna essentially deleted genes but didn't replace them with anything that shoudl cause some problems. The flashbacks played better on screen than I expected. However, I still think that B'Elanna is responsible for her alienation from others. She is moody, oversensitive and entirely overreacted. That's unfortunate because it makes B'Elanna unsympathetic, belittles the experiences of those who faced constant oppressive environment IMO, and robs B'Elanna of something that made her heroic in my eyes (overcoming adversity as a child, but I guess only Seven is allowed to have a poignant backstory). THE UGLY Nothing was uglier than B'Elanna's behavior. It is very difficult to believe that B'Elanna would so casually reprogram the doc. Like Eric, I believe that B'Elanna does treat the doctor as an individual and friend. In Flesh and Blood, she is the only senior officer who sees the validity of the holograms position before being kidnapped. She was the only one that was concerned for getting the Doc back in Hunters, and she may have an affinity and ascribe human characteristics to machines as Scotty did with his engines. Reprogramming the Doc was extreme, but I guess turn around is fair play (Nothing Human, Flesh and Blood). Again, when I think that B'Elanna was willing to genetically alter her child, essential to keep her man, I am extremely troubled by that. I need to see B'Elanna's strengths instead of the constant focus of her weaknesses and insecurities. I loved early B'Elanna for always trying her best in difficult situation and accepting the consequenecs of her actions. Like you Eric I am deeply disappointed that TPTB will not followup on this episode. I would like to see the Doc's parenting classes. Those projections of the Torres-Paris child. Man, the CGI was bad. Is it me or is Tom looking much older? Reprogramming the Doctor... was a CRIMINAL ACT! How many times have they emphasized that the Doc is an individual, with all the rights and responsibilities of any other crewmember? What if a member of the crew drugged another crewmember so they would do exactly what the drugger told them to do? They tried to explain it away with some guff about B'Elanna's raging hormones and the difficulties of cross-species pregnancies, as well as her Tragic Past. I'm not buying it. Even if she WAS unbalanced enough to do something like that, Captain Janeway is not similarly unbalanced. Why isn't B'Elanna in the BRIG?! Joyce Completely agree... Her actions were criminal, just as the Doc's actions in Flesh and Blood. In both cases, I think the Doc and B'Elanna escaped punishment due to stereotypes-- of i) holograms not being individuals responsible for his actions and ii) hormonal and non-thinking pregnant woman. This is one of those episodes you can think too deeply about. Re: LINEAGE had some nasty undertones, but i *think* i liked it... Since this is a B'Elanna episode, I must jump into the discussion. I definitely agree that this one had some bad undertones. On the one hand, it's interesting to get anything of B'Elanna's past. However, this doesn't really help me to understand her any better. Her fear of abandonment has always been present since the first time she muttered the fact that her father left them when she was FIVE, not six (as in Extreme Risk), and certainly not twelve. The fact that she thought her father left because she told him to could have been shown in that one last scene. The other scenes didn't show B'Elanna in a good light at all. I agree with the person who also said that this episode showed how unstable B'Elanna was, and she even admitted that she knew exactly what she was doing! And why was everyone so patronizing! Reprogramming the Doctor really did cross the line in the end. I know B'Elanna is flawed, that's what I like about her. But this backstory and the subsequent actions because of it really did nothing to endear her or make me see her has having matured or resolved the issue. At least it helped Tom's character, though I still feel this marriage is a sham. Sleeping at Harry's after a fight! I would have liked to have seen her contemplate the possibility of altering the Doc's program. Maybe have a conversation with him while she is pretending to run a diagnostic or upgrade his program before she was about to reprogram, then realize during the course of the conversation, how wrong it would be. The ache of being caught between wanting to change her baby and betraying the faith of a friend who is cheerfully talking to her would have been a haunting and effective development. This would lead to her finally having to face her actions, her past and get her to talk with Tom. Insert a scene with the other "hapas" on Voyager- Seven, and Naomi and talk to them about being accepted or not in Seven's case initially, would be effective as well. And instead of having mutiple flashbacks showing a young B'Elanna being oversensitive, have a series of flashbacks dealing with how hard it was to be half-Klingon, being abandoned or betrayed, shown from her adulthood backwards to her youth culminating in the camping trip scenes with her father/uncle and father/B'Elanna, the root of her angst. Not that I'm done ranting. I must say that the entire hour was very compelling and watchable. All the actors did a wonderful job. RD and RDM were great. I must say though that I've seen enough of Tom being angst with B'Elanna (Nothing Human, Barge, Uni Zero, Drive) - give RDM more range. RD is always, always wonderful. Icheb might still have a crush on our Klingon. Picardo was lovely as the Doctor, Chakotay could have had more to do being B'Elanna's old friend. And I certainly appreciated the nice sleepwear/underwear B'Elanna was wearing. I think this season has shown B'Elanna in more civies than all the previous seasons combined. This is starting to look like these people actually have lives outside of the disasters of the week. More money to wardrobe, please. Spoilers.... It is my hope that this pregnancy does not put my half-Klingon out of commission. I still want to she her kick Klingon butt in Prophecy though....spoilers.............Spoilers I hear the honor goes to Tom. "....daddy never came back". Okay, let me say one thing right off the bat. I cried last night. I cried even though I predicted as much last year. (From Mac's archives season 6... "Something else caused Daddy to run away, and like a good little girl, B'Elanna excuses Daddy and finds someone else to blame. She thinks she blames her Mom, but in her heart she has an even greater fear. We know what that fear is, she told us (and Tom-sigh) in that season 1 ep:"Faces". It was heartbreaking to hear, because it is such a universal fear for children of divorce. He didn't leave because of Mom. He left because of "Me"/BLT") But just because I knew where we were going, doesn't mean I can't cry when I see how hurt B'Elanna truly is. I cried because TPTB not only "finished" the developmental arc of B'Elanna Torres begun 7 years ago with respect to the continuity of her established character... they specifically showed us/her WHY there has been so much tension in the couple called Tom & B'Elanna. If Daddy, who was godlike and pure, couldn't live with 2 Klingons... how could Tom. Oh gosh. I love Tom. Don't you? He was just fantastic this week. Why is it that TPTB have figured out how to write for him and Chakotay only now? He was funny, he was caring, he was realistic, he was sensitive (LOVED the line regarding B'Elanna's attempt to "run away" at the campground... "Maybe you just wanted him to stop you.") and he was insightful. ("B'Elanna! I will NEVER leave you!") Good golly... I am SUCH a sop over this! And the end... the very end. When she came to apologize to the Doc for VIOLATING his program (What an admission on her part. True, but still!) I never expected that final question from her... but you know... in a way it was right. Because, not only has Chakotay been an ever present influence in her life... over the years so has the Doc. Not only that, but like her... when he looks out over the crew of "140-150"... he can't find ANYone who looks "like him". Who better to be the confidant of a child with a similar problem? So, although "I" wouldn't have picked him, it actually makes Sense (to me) for him to be the godfather... Not only that, her offer shows how far she's come in "accepting" the Doc IS more than a "Toaster". Sigh. So many great things in this ep. So many great looks. So many interesting pairings... especially the resurrection of Tom and Tuvok! I loved it. Even if it DID make me cry.
D47 Why isn't she in the brig? For the same reason The Doc isn't there for betraying Janeway. The offended party decided NOT to "press charges". If the Doc can forgive her, perhaps I can too. D47 Reprogramming the Doctor... WAS A CRIMINAL ACT. Well, that's a bit too harsh in caps. Erics' comments about rape were too harsh as well. Afterall, didn't Janeway use the doc's life against the Borg and basically said, "tough" over the protests? B'Elanna's actions were the result of a very deep seeded fear and extreme insecurities. At best, if Counselor Troi was aboard, Janeway would have asked her to schedule a visit with her. Also B'Elanna showed extreme regret over her actions. She knows what she did was wrong and went well beyond apology to correct it. Rape? No. Criminal? No. Bad judgment (by reason of pent up emotional problems), yes. Mrs. Mac snip..."even if im not at all sure i like what it dredges up about B'Ellana... " Specify, please. If I can explain my confusion ... I think this ep shows us quite well the trauma that was her young life. And I'm NOT talking about worms on the sandwich. I'm talking about a Dad who sees the normal distancing and rebellion of a prepubertal child and ascribes it to being KLINGON. To a man who fell out of love with not only his wife (which I can forgive) but who ABANDONED his daughter (which, frankly, I can not forgive.) You can't tell me that this "overly sensitive" young girl did not sense this distancing in HIM. I can only imagine the pain she felt, sitting alone in that tent, and hearing her DADDY talk about her MOMMY "that way". And when she confronted him with it... what did he do? Did he reassure her? Did he explain to her how someone could "love" but not "live" with another being? Nope. He just told her SHE shouldn't listen to private conversations! (You don't WANT to know what I said, after that!) So, david, you can see how your comment intrigues me. "How" could this ep dredge up anything that would make you "not like" this character? Or does it just make you bleed for her? D47 Re: I think it'd be redundant to say I loved it. D'Alaire said..."D@mn right she wouldn't want history to repeat itself, no matter what the chance of that happening would be. --Though I do have to get to sleep, and can't get into the ethical debate right now, I will say I do understand why she would come to such a decision. I personally don't agree with it--but what do I know, right?" D'A, as you pointed out, we haven't walked in her shoes, and can't "know" why she would have felt so compelled to "turn (her) daughter into a science experiment". and yet... I think Tom nailed that answer on the head. She did "this"... reprograming the Doc, experimenting with the child, for the same reason she packed up and tried to run away on the camping trip. She wanted Tom (or her Dad, on the trip) to stop her. She couldn't find a way to reveal this greatest of all fears to Tom, but this "cry of help" alerted him that there was MORE going on than a few forehead ridges. Wasn't he simply divine last night? Sigh. Happy thoughts, happy thoughts. D47 Not cliched, AC,,, I thought a similar thing. Why doesn't Tom throw Naomi at B'Elanna? But, TPTB didn't have time for "extras" and it was never about "looking" different. It was about how you think your Dad Feels about you... and that's something Naomi hasn't really had to confront. IMO Otherwise, I agree... great ep. D47 Does B'Elanna have the right? It truly depends on the motivation for the alteration, and the science regarding the alteration. B'Elanna wanted to make the kid less Klingon, so Tom would love her more and not abandon her when she was 12 years old. Unfortunately, smoothing away a few ridges would NOT guarantee that. Even if "it could" the Doc pointed out the ramifications extend beyond "physical appearance" and could not be predicted. If he wanted, he could have used his OWN manipulations of his program in "Darkling" as a wonderful example of misguided intentions landng the manipulator in "he!!". My take, on "that" debate, anyway. D47 I was reminded almost agonizingly of a friend of mine who did not want children when he married, and his wife agreed. Pregnancy happened anyway. One day when their son was a child old enough to understand, my friend espostulated about how he never WANTED a kid and how miserable his life was. He didn't know until some years later that little Juan (let's call him) was in the next room. He didn't know until little Juan tried to commit suicide as a college student. What's my parallel to John Torres in "Lineage"? Only that when he did learn how Juan had overheard him, my friend refused to allow his son the right to be hurt. "I won't talk to you about this if you are going to blame me!", and I pretty much quote. A position that he never abandoned, while his son managed with other people's help to recover anyway...now my friend wonders why he has no grandchildren. Can't imagine why not, can you? Weak and selfish is right, Terry. I found the cliches in "Lineage" annoying, and I was disturbed to see B'Elanna once again coming off as profoundly unstable...and yet, that real-life echo forces me to call this a good episode if not a great one. I think it'd be redundant to say I loved it. Wow. Wow. Wow. They just blew the screen off my TV! My thoughts exactly, D'Alaire. I've said it from day one, Roxann does not cheat her audience. Never a half-hearted job. Now, there has been some contention that B'Elanna should have had some extraordinarily bad-@ss trauma in order to make her go to the extremes that does here. Amen! We've watched B'Elanna grow over the years but there still was that underlining feeling that she was emotionally walking on the edge that separated her heritages. Was this a bookend to "Faces?" Didn't she imply to Tom that she had some childhood problems and now in this episode they finally rise to the top after simmering for so many years. It was accomplished through a wonderfully "real" story and not through a contrived alien plot. I think what B'Elanna experienced on the camping trip alone was bad enough--and indeed, it was that which became the issue at hand. Well, it was probably the accumulation of similar incidents. There wasn't any doubt the B'Elanna was the subject of ridicule as a child and that trauma was partially responsible for her anger and insecurities. It's no wonder that B'Elanna felt more comfortable with a warp core than with most people. She was (rightly felt for a child--her father, the dolt, should have been more careful) totally betrayed... And no wonder! Young B'Elanna tells her dad what she overheard and he responds, "You shouldn't be listening to my conversations." The dolt, is right! He doesn't address the problem. Then he says something like, "I'll never leave you," and he turns around and is never seen again. B'Elanna has every right to fear a repeat performance from Tom and, desperately, she does what she thinks will prevent that no matter how ill-conceived. My heart just ached for her. and can't get into the ethical debate right now, I will say I do understand why she would come to such a decision. I absolutely agree, D'Alaire. On the Nebula, some people called her act (against the doctor) "rape" and "criminal." To me it was a desperate cry for help. She did not want another man to fail her. The ironic twist is that if she had succeeded in what she was about to do she would have almost certainly permanently damaged her relationship with Tom. Her daughter might have to suffer through their problems as well. Hence, a genetically altered daughter with severe trauma of a different sort. [Tom is] overwhelmed, but he handles it--wants and makes every attempt to handle it. In the end, he does come to understand, and he does it well, with strength and dignity enough for them both. Poor Captain Janeway. Counselor! It's interesting that in their disagreement they both agree to vent their differences in front of the Captain. Can we say Godmother? I hope so. Please, please don't make it Seven! Obviously the Captain is someone they both respect and trust and she does the right thing by sending them back to their quarters to work it out themselves. I thought this was a great character piece, tremendously performed and felt to a huge degree by me and two Kleenex by the end. Yup. It was a hanky ending! I think I strangled poor Bijou - I was clutching her so hard - and Mac had a firm grip on my feet. I could feel the tension in his hands. Of course, that was a good massage for my feet too! Great supporting roles by the rest of the cast, too--giving everyone a little bit of time, well-placed and appropriately. Yes, this was a P/T episode but when they use the rest of the cast wisely it becomes an ensemble piece - and that's a compliment! The entire cast has a contribution to make to the story and they play their parts well. Unstable B'Elanna Weak and selfish is right, Terry. I found the cliches in "Lineage" annoying, and I was disturbed to see B'Elanna once again coming off as profoundly unstable...and yet, that real-life echo forces me to call this a good episode if not a great one. I never got the feeling that B'Elanna was stable. There was to me always an underlying tension. B'Elanna grew up as an angry person and it just can't be turned off or toned down until the cause of the problem is rooted out. So I'm not suprised at all that this LIFE altering experience (that of the past combined with a pregnancy) would cause her to snap. Mrs. Mac After Ransom had deleted his ethical subroutines in Equinox, Part II the Doc made a pledge to create a security system for his program--which would lock out anyone who attempted to tamper with his program. Re: Well, SOMEONE needs to be able to manipulate Doc's program should a problem ever happen. B'Elanna has been the one to take care of him traditionally. I think was security measures were put into place to prevent "unauthorized" personnel/aliens from messing with him. Mrs. Mac Re: LINEAGE--WOW!!!!! AMAZING!!!! WONDERFUL!!!!! This, without a doubt, imho, was ABSOULUTELY THE BEST EPISODE THAT VOYAGER EVER PRESENTED!!!!!!!!! Everything worked...the characterizations were beautiful; the motivations made sense; the acting was superb; the script was tight, on-target, and succinct!!!! Everything made sense! Everything felt real! Roxanne & Robert were brilliant!!!! Mulgrew, Picardo, Russ handled themselves beautifully!!! Even Icheb's "Maybe it's a parasite" was classic! I am one happy camper!!!!!!!!!!!!! Mindy No padded room for B'Elanna I thought this was a perfect episode. I just loved every single scene, so much so that I didn't even lament the MERE CAMEOS of my favorite Captain. B'Elanna's pain and her behavior made so much sense, esp. with the flashbacks being woven in with her more and more desperate real life actions. Reasons why B'Elanna's actions made sense: 1. B'Elanna was PREGNANT, with hormones going absolutely nuts. 2. B'Elanna was terrified that SHE drove her beloved father away, in part just by being who she is, part Klingon, and in part by actually telling him to leave. This is guilt that I think almost every child of divorce feels, ESPECIALLY if one parent just takes off. 3. B'Elanna wanted to give her child the BEST possible start. She wanted to spare her child any pain or barriers to her self-fulfillment and growth. 4. B'Elanna didn't want to drive Tom away; if her Dad couldn't live with two Klingons, maybe Tom couldn't either. So was this enough to justify her assaulting the Doctor and betraying Tom? Well it doesn't JUSTIFY it. It simply EXPLAINS it. Everything came to a head. Her past, her fears for her daughter, her fears about her marriage and Tom. Add in a few pregnancy hormones and you've got a desperate woman. This makes so much more sense to me than the other Torres-goes-crazy episode "Extreme Risk" where she became numb and depressed because of the slaughter of her second family, the Maquis. Interesting ethical questions. The more we know about genes, the more some parents will want to modify them. And not just physically, "I want a blue eyed black haired baby", but even genes that are relevant for things like coordination/physical prowess, or learning disabilities, etc.... Where can anyone possible draw the line?? What an ethical MESS. Life threatening changes are easy to justify. But what about being physically awkward? A clumsy child may throw him/herself into art, or music, or science, and make incredible contributions in those areas. Would those contributions be wiped out if parents can choose the traits of their babies?? Would that fact stop parents?? I think most parents want their kids to be happy in childhood. Even the idea that some suffering in childhood might help carve them into more thoughtful and compassionate adults isn't going to have much sway for a lot of parents. If I could wipe out the language delays and autistic tendencies in my child I'd do that in a heartbeat. WHO CARES if I've maybe become a better person trying to help my child. WHO CARES if my child will know he's achieved something incredible if he gets this thing conquered. I'd wipe it all out in a FLASH. In the context of Voyager, B'Elanna wouldn't be half as fascinating and rich and textured if she was NOT half Klingon/Human. The pain and angst of her childhood has made her into a phenomenal person. I also like how the father wasn't painted as evil incarnate. He was an unhappy man in an unhappy marriage who loved his daughter but was losing the energy to "fight" all the time. He was just getting tired. My own father, a Maine farmboy, married my mom - from Thailand, and my stepmom, from Chile - and I've witnessed DECADES of culture clashes. They are exhausting. I think it was terrible that the father left and vanished completely, but the show handled his character beautifully I thought. Tom and B'Elanna were great - I mean McNeill and Roxanne. They did a fantastic acting job. And the writers did a GREAT job fitting the entire cast in, in meaningful and relevant ways that moved the plot along. I just can't say enough about this episode.... Angela LINEAGE far exceeded my expectations First, let me address that "B'Elanna was 5 when her father left, not 12" nit several folks have mentioned. Roxann Dawson talked about this at the Orlando convention. She said, yes, they all knew that B'Elanna was supposed to have been 5 when her father left but that in casting the episode they couldn't find a 5 year old that could carry the emotional weight of the scenes so they finally settled on the 12 year old. Roxann said yeah, it's a direct contradiction, but that's the way it goes so please don't have a fit about it. One more thing: Pixie, you are just wrong with your comment that the idea that pregnancy can make a woman hysterical, irrational and physically disabled is a false and vicious stereotype. Every woman's experience is different and even the same woman often has vastly different experiences with different pregnancies. But, I've been there and I can testify to the fundamental truth of that "stereotype." Almost every pregnant woman is hysterical, irrational and physically disabled at some point in her pregnancy - some of us more than others. Now, on to my reaction to Lineage. I had some misgivings about this episode based on the spoilers. Tom and B'Elanna are two of my favorite characters and I've generally been disappointed at how they have been used (and abused) by the writers over the past few seasons. And, based on the spoilers I wasn't too crazy about the story line: "B'Elanna wants to change her child's appearance which we all know is morally wrong, she and Tom fight, B'Elanna sees the error of her ways and accepts her Klingon-ness." Yeah, whatever. Ho-hum. Big deal. Haven't we been here before? Boy, was I wrong. Lineage was not at all what I expected. It wasn't even really, IMO, about the baby and her appearance. It was about how we carry the events of the past with us and how those little bits and pieces of our past floating around in our heads interact with the events of the present and sometimes cause us to behave in ways that seem irrational and incomprehensible. When B'Elanna first persisted in trying to get the Doc to change the baby's appearance I was thinking, "Geez, B'Elanna, give it up, get over it." But as we saw more about B'Elanna's past and her relationship with her father, and as B'Elanna became more frantic about modifying the baby's genome, even to the extent of tampering with the doctor's program, her irrational behavior actually began to make sense. Childhood emotional trauma + deep-seated insecurity + trigger event (the "projected" baby probably looked exactly like B'Elanna's baby pictures) + pregnancy hormones led to panic. People in a panic often do things that seem downright bizarre to the dispassionate observer yet do make sense somehow to the person involved. On a basic emotional level, B'Elanna's desire to eliminate all traces of Klingon-ness in her and Tom's baby made perfect sense. Based on the spoilers I didn't expect to buy into this notion, but upon viewing, I did. That is, I think, a great credit to Roxann Dawson's acting abilities. Ok, I could say more, but I've got to get to work. I'll just summarize by saying I liked Lineage. Vickie What instability, david g? I really object to this idea that if someone has a "tender spot" in their psyche that this means they're unstable...all of us, I'm sure, have buttons that can be pushed to take us back to the time when...well, fill in your own situation...I don't care HOW "stable" and "mature" the face that the person shows the world is...or even the face that the person sees in the mirror...all of us have bugaboos whether we want to admit them or not...and it's these human foibles that give us character... ...and, by thew way, are the keys to great drama, passion, comedy, music...any of the arts. This show was as finely tuned as any "serious drama" on any other night. Don't look for problems when there weren't any. Mindy Deb, You Have Exactly he Same Response to B'Ellana's father i have... as i said in my initial review, i thought he was perfectly drawn, because he was both appealing and callow...he's, as Terry said, a weak and selfish man--that'spart of the awful squirminess of watching him and young B'Ellana interact. i thought those scenes were very well done. What I mean about "dreding things up about B'Ellana i dont like"...I am troubled by her reprogramming of the Doctor... i think my use of "dredging up" refers to the ep's depiction of B'Ellana as potentially unstable and dangerous--that the B'Ellana i love so much is capable of acting this way is upsetting to me...but certainly not implausible. in some ways this ep brings us back to--links with--Extreme Risk, imo, an unjustly maligned ep...as in that ep, B'Ellana is shown to be capable of very questionable, self-destructive behavior...painful but believable. david g Gee, Mindy Umm, I really liked the episode...in fact, i think it's a great episode...and a very troubling and upsetting one. I was pointing out though, that Ive been struggling with the way this ep presents B'Ellana's "instability"--ie, her reprogramming of the Doctor, barring everyone from sickbay, which, however anguished she was, was reckless behavior...which DOES link up to Extreme Risk, where she was purposely allowing herself to be injured. but, Mindy, i have to say i find the tone of your response a bit police-ing! you can disagree with me, but why are you suddenly telling me what to do? david g Wow, this was a great episode I figured I'd give myself time to mull it over a bit more before posting, but this episode was very hard-hitting. My husband and I sat and watched the ensuing chaos -- Icheb telling everyone, all the name suggestions, the "helpful advice," the well-meaning friends suggesting that the parents' social lives were now over, etc etc and sat back and said, "Yep, that's what we remember." I especially loved that Harry wasn't all that tactful in his little digs at how domesticated Tom was now. As for B'Elanna's actions? I see them motivated out of fear for her child. First, she finds out she's pregnant and the day gets thrown into turmoil. THEN, the doc tells them there's a problem. THEN, they find out a solution (genetic alteration) that also has possibilities that appeal to B'Elanna, in that she thinks she can protect her daughter from the pitfalls of Klingon appearance. I don't see this as meaning that I can never again see B'Elanna as a strong woman. What it does mean to me is that something in her past had a profound effect upon how she sees being Klingon, and it hurt her deeply. It affected how she sees her relationships with others. She sees the genetic changes as PROTECTING her daughter, and that instinct is very difficult to suppress when you're pregnant (or indeed, after giving birth. Anyone who even THINKS of harming my child better not let me near them.) Not to mention that she's had so much thrown at her in so short a time that she can barely think straight. I'm not saying that makes her actions towards the Doctor right. It does make them understandable, and when she has the courage to apologize, I loved it. As for the genetic changes -- it's a tricky dilemna. What if you knew there was a potentially fatal disease that ran in your family? Would you select for that to be removed? Their daughter needed corrective intervention to help her spine. Without it, I'm guessing she might not have been able to walk. What if the doctor had found more problems? It's one of the greatest fears a woman can face -- the possibility that she might be pregnant with a child that has something seriously wrong with them in any manner, and it's also something she has little control over. This episode gave me some answers about B'Elanna's past, and Tom's acceptance of who she is, but also raised several questions for me. That's not bad for one hour of television. AC p.s. loved Icheb. "Maybe it's a parasite." *snicker* Now I want to see a scene where B'Elanna is having a food craving and Tom questions whether the food is good for the baby. On B'Ellana's Instability I agree w/what you say, Mrs Mac, regarding the terrible tension always at work in B'Ellana...this is one of the qualities of her character that has always drawn me to her and made me love her so much. i found that overheard discussion between father and uncle deeply excruciating...i could COMPLETELY understand why B'Ellana was troubled... it has bothered me to hear people saying that B'Ellanna was overreacting, "too sensitive," et al..having heard the same refrain all throughout my turbulent, difficult adolescence--part of the beauty of LINEAGE is that it evokes those childhood memories so palpably--i am convinced that people tell other people theyre to sensitive mainly to avoid dealing with how they themselves are acting! That's why Im surprised some seem to have heard in my comments regarding B'Ellana's "instability" a lack of sympathy for her--which couldnt be farther from the truth. I empathize with her deeply. What I mean by not liking what this ep says about her instability is this...She reprograms the Doctor, whose reprogramming has been one of the hUGE sore spots of the series...she bars people from getting into sickbay...she's acting in an irrational manner here. because i am so fond of Torres, as a viewer i dont want to see her act this way. but as ive now repeatedly said in this thread (sorry to repeat myself), this behavior DOES link up with Extreme Risk, in which she was also shown to be capable of self-destructve behavior. all of which is to say...i may not like to see this side of her--we dont like to see the anguished selfdestructive sides of people we love--but i really do UNDERSTAND and believe why this side of her exists. it's all part of B'Ellanna's deeply complex character. troubled by B'Ellanna's actions though I am, I remain deeply impressed by this ep's willingness to really delve into the tortured realities of a wounded psyche. all why i think this is a great, painful episode. david g Another point about B'Elanna's age from Orlando Con Vickie wrote: First, let me address that "B'Elanna was 5 when her father left, not 12" nit several folks have mentioned. Roxann Dawson talked about this at the Orlando convention. She said, yes, they all knew that B'Elanna was supposed to have been 5 when her father left but that in casting the episode they couldn't find a 5 year old that could carry the emotional weight of the scenes so they finally settled on the 12 year old. Roxann said yeah, it's a direct contradiction, but that's the way it goes so please don't have a fit about it. Richard Arnold (used to work at Paramount on Trek; now works for Creation) spoke the next day about this as well. I think Vickie and Ginny might have been in the dealer's room at this point, and I'm so foggy from cough syrup that I can't remember his exact phrasing, but . . . he said something about how he hated to contradict a guest while they were speaking, but that Worf's son (I think) had had an accelerated growth phase, and that it could be believable that the 12 year old actress in the flashbacks *was* five given her Klingon heritage. I say this not having seen the episode yet or having read all the posts, so I don't know if they specifically gave her age last night. I was troubled by this one... I was intrigued by this episode, but found it disturbing. In the first few season of the series I didn't care much for the B'Elanna Character, now I do. Over the years I've grown fond of her as I watched her evolve. A much more interesting evolution for me than watching Seven become "human" again. I've enjoyed watching B'Elanna development to the point where she could express her feelings for others and not shut them out. She became less of a loner and was developing relationships with others. For me her character peaked at the point where she married the man she loved. I thought her mental state had improved dramatically. Now, after last night, I think that her emotional problems have not been addressed properly after all. I thought her mental state had evolved beyond what was displayed here. And no I don't chalk it up as a body chemistry change caused by the pregnancy that's effecting her state of mind. After this episode and based on a few past episodes, I've decided that without a doubt B'Elanna is in need of some very serious in-depth counseling. In fact, she could be a full time assignment for a ships counselor ;^). Yeah, sure I felt bad for her and I was even choked up when it was revealed at the end that she was most afraid of losing her beloved Tom the way she had lost her father. I liked that twist, it was not just that B'Elanna didn't want her daughter to look like her and have her Klingon temperament. Her main reason for changing the child was not for her child's sake alone, but for her own sake too. My main problem with her is that she was willing to defy and shut out the baby's father completely, sabotaged the ship and the doctors programming, possibly endangered the life of her unborn child (the Doc's original opinion)and all because SHE B'Elanna has fears of being deserted by the man she loves. I like B'Elanna, but again this poor woman needs help. That hug and reassurance by Tom at the end are not the magic that's going to change her from then on. She has still not learned that the solution to her problems is not cutting off communications and over riding the advice of others. It appears that B'Elanna has not received the psychological counseling she has needed, since episodes like 'Extreme Risk'. She still needs help, especially now that she will be a mother and partly responsible for raising a child who will need her love and emotional strength. Mike Definitely need to watch this again. Anyone else get the impression Tom & B'Elanna really hadn't been planning on a baby, despite what they told Doc? Just not being careful since they figured the chances of having a child without medical intervention were pretty slim. I noticed they never mentioned a stardate or said how many weeks pregnant she was, just that it might be shorter than normal for Klingons. I assume that's all so they can have the baby born before the show ends. I won't hold my breath but it would be a good time to see Samantha. Tom at least has Tuvok to talk to, and Carey & Ayala have kids too I think; Sam's the only woman on the ship who has a child. Janeway's there to talk to and she's certainly supportive (really liked the hug and Janeway talking to them as their friend but distinguishing what she would do as the Captain), but its not the same. I'm glad there are no longer concerns about anyone having kids like there were before Naomi was born. She's done fine, they had the Borg kids and various passengers with families and they're in a generally safer part of space. In fact have they lost anyone since the Equinox incident? I can't think of any. 140 humans and last total crew count I recall was 153. If that includes Icheb & Naomi that means there are only 4 Bajorans (Celes, Geron , Tabor and 1 other) plus 2 Vulcans, 2 Bolians, 1 Betazoid, 1 Talaxian and B'Elanna. I like their new quarters; must be one of the guest quarters or one that had belonged to the original CMO or Chief Engineer. It never made much sense that the Chief Engineer and Chief Pilot had relatively small, interior cabins, though I guess they were just where they'd been assigned when they came on board and never bothered to move. I hadn't seen the comments from Orlando so I was surprised when she said her father left shortly after that camping trip; I'd assumed when I'd read about the flashback that it would be to time they spent together after her parents split. The difference could have been explained if she'd said he left for a while when she was 5, came back, then split permanently later. I thik it actually makes more sense for her feelings of guilt at being partially the cause of his leaving for her to have been older and more aware of the differences and problems. I don't buy the Klingon growth spurt because she's also said she was 19 and a sophmore when she dropped out, and the average age of sophmores is 19-20. Two "bottle" shows in a row; I expect lots of pyrotechnics next week. Re: I was troubled by this one... Oooo Mikey, why did I KNOW you were going to say all that you did? She became less of a loner and was developing relationships with others. For me her character peaked at the point where she married the man she loved. I thought her mental state had improved dramatically. Now, after last night, I think thather emotional problems have not been addressed properly after all. When Tom and B'Elanna were in sickbay and learned about the pregnancy, there was a genuine thrill on both of their faces. It was only when B'Elanna saw that they baby resembled herself that a whole mess of dormant inner demons were triggered. She was shocked. She even expected her child to be only 1/4 Klingon. Then the flashbacks started. As they got closer to the root of B'Elanna psychological problems (that she thought she was the reason her father deserted them), B'Elanna's behavior became more irrational. What a nice piece of writing! You're right, Mikey, she needs serious counseling but she took a bold step in the right direction. Finally, the root of her problems has surfaced. Mrs. Mac Re: I was reminded almost agonizingly But Nina, the "real-life echoes" are precisely what made this episode so powerful and wonderful!!! I didn't have a problem with B'lanna's father at all...I didn't think he was weak or selfish; how was he supposed to know his daughter was up when he was having the conversation with Carl? And as for the way he handled it...I don't think John Torres wasn't allowing B'lanna to be hurt...I just think he didn't know what to say...and, like Tom, I think the fact that he left 12 days later was just one of those things... ...because if he had left a year later, B'lanna would still blame herself and that camping out trip would still have been a painful "marker" in her mind. Mindy Simple : Janeway is Nucking Futs! Well after sleeping on the episode i have to say that i agree with Pixie. B'Elanna was NOT a very sympathetic character at all. Based on past episodes B'Elanna deserved some brig time at the LEAST, a demotion to Ensign at worst. HoloDoc is Voyager's ONLY specalized medical staff after all! Messing with him puts the entire ship i danger! Doc has no backup! What if she couldn't fix her sabatage?? And BTW Tuvok HAS to be the WORST Security Chief in the history of ALL Sci-Fi! "Again". *sigh* If Janeway wasn't the incompitant she was she would fire his Vulcan butt! How many times does this make Tuvok's security procedures useless? enTranced Re: LINEAGE (Spoilers)--Naomi Wildman Yeah, I did think of that, too, Andrea, in fact almost immediately once the problem presented itself, and I was kinda surprised that neither Naomi or her mom showed up... but then I thought about it... from a writer's viewpoint, my guess is that they talked about it when putting the show together, but that it was decided that including Naomi would have slowed the show up, and eaten up valuable time from the story they really wanted to tell...that B'lanna's problem with her Klingon side doesn't come from her mother, as we all thought, but from her father.... I also thought, c'mon, how many adults would think of asking an 8 year old for advice? So for B'lanna and/or Tom to go to Naomi would have been silly. Okay, maybe they could have gone to Samantha Wildman, but I think that again, the decision was that it would have slowed the impetus and have taken away from the main thrust of the story. But I must admit to even more surprise that when Tom was arguing with B'lanna, pointing out the varied races on the ship, he didn't bring up Naomi in that context (she was brought up regarding Neelix's godfathering skills, several times, in fact.) It would be interesting to question Biller about the lack of input from Samantha Wildman and/or Naomi, wouldn't it? But I still stick with my review of the show, i,e.: ABSOLUTELY FFAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAB-ULOUS, DARLING!!! Mindy He could have said "I'm sorry I said that where you could hear me, B'Elanna." Instead of, "You shouldn't have been listening." He could have said, "I understand that you feel hurt, and that's natural when someone says something bad about you," instead of "You're too sensitive." He could have even been adult enough to realize that being moody and distant is part of being 12. How could he not realize how hurtful his words were when he talked about Klingon women as he did? He focussed entirely on his own feelings while dismissing and/or ignoring his daughter's, and that's my problem with Mr. Torres. Little girls get so much of their self-esteem from their fathers' attitudes toward them - now I know just where B'Elanna's went, and why. Powerful and real-life, I'll agree. I liked that scene BECAUSE it was so wrenching. Re: He could have said...You're right, Nina... ...But if John Torres was that mature and smart (like us, of course Mindy B'Elanna WANTED Tom to catch onto her reprogramming.... ... just as she'd subconsciously wanted her father to stop her from running away, at some subconscious level she expected/ wanted Tom to stop her. (Look at her behavior when Tom storms in, and then just after the force field falls. She's not really fighting the fight. At one point, there's an enormously resigned look on her face -- like it was somehow inevitable that things turn out this way.) Let me be very clear: she is not being manipulative. Although she did indeed quite desperately want to protect both her child and herself via gene therapy, I believe that she also - subconsciously, unconsciously, whatever - wanted to confront her fear openly. IMO, she wanted to be honest with Tom, wanted to open up to him, wanted to give him the opportunity to reassure her while at the same time dreading he'd disappoint him. She set them up to have that final revelatory conversation. For those of you (Mike) who believe that this episode has her taking a backward step, I think that this ultimately shows immense growth on her part. After all, if she'd really set out to reprogram the Doc, she'd never have been caught. Ronit There's reprogramming, and then there's hacking the calculator functions. If you screwed with my worksheet functions, I'd be upset -- but it wouldn't be an act against my person. In the Doc's case, it does get more complicated b/c his personality and his Excel live side by side (or byte by byte). But there is NO evidence that she touched his personality, his opera subroutines (which is where I'd go), his ethical subroutines, his memories, his holoimaging, etc. The question is whether or not she put in an imperative to re-check the baby's DNA. That might qualify as messing with his innate self. Ronit Thanks for te perspective, and agreed about ep, Vickie. NIM Loved this ep! D47 That's a beauty of a reading, Ronit, and one I can really accept Though I loved last night's episode, I also had serious misgivings about B'Ellanna reprogramming Doc... it was still very wrong of her to do this...but we all have moments like these, sometimes. I find your reading extremely helpful. david g Re: No padded room for B'Elanna....AMEN to everything you said!!!! (nim) Re: LINEAGE - Just a note or two Okaay, now I haven't seen Lineage, and I'm not likely to for several more months, but I have read the synopsis, and I'm in a contentious, ranting mood. So why not? I ask myself. Three points which have occurred to me while reading the various things that have been posted in various places about this episode, with the most serious one last, so I can really warm up to it! POINT ONE Tom and B'Elanna have an argument, so Tom has to spend the night on Harry's couch. Am I the only one that finds this completely unacceptable? A few months ago, Tom had quarters of his own, a place to go, a private space that he could retreat to. Now, because he's married, he has to fall back on the charity of a friend if the woman he's married to decides she wants their communal space to herself for a while. He's not being treated or thought of as an individual anymore but as a sub-unit within a kind of collective. Even sub-unit Naomi Wildman has her own personal space. In the present day, I would find this unacceptable. In the 24th century, even under the conditions imposed by living on Voyager, I think this says something very disturbing about how the writers - and by extension, the people in the 24th century Federation, view marriage. Everybody needs personal space. You don't suddenly stop being an individual, with the occasional need for privacy, just because you get married. Just out of interest - presumably the writers - and probably the viewers - have assumed that taking married quarters was an elective for Tom and B'Elanna. But we don't know. Maybe it was compulsory. Leading straight on to... POINT TWO Now, as I've said, I haven't seen the episode, so this one could be completely irrelevant, but somehow, having seen the evidence available in 'course oblivion', I'm willing to take the chance that I'm ranting on to no viable purpose. Does Tom and B'Elanna's new quarters have windows? If not why not? Tom and Kes had quarters with big windows in Before and After (pout). The Captain has windows. Chakotay has windows. Tuvok has windows. You only have to look at the outside of Voyager to be able to see that there are at least seven sets of quarters which have picture windows like those of Tuvok and Chakotay. So who has the other five or more? Tom and B'Elanna are separately the two next senior officers on the ship - surely together, if not individually they deserve quarters like those of the other two seniors officers. And if not, why not other quarters with smaller windows of which there must be (to count the lights on the hull) enough for at least half the crew! Also, the impression I got from Course Oblivion, when we got to see a version of their married quarters, was that it wasn't substantially bigger than one single quarters. Surely they are entitled to twice the amount of single quarter space together - or if not, that discriminates against married couples. This can't be because the space wasn't available - they had it to begin with, in separate quarters!! Ah. I've just read "D"s post, so this is completely redundant. But I wrote it, so I'll leave it in anyway! POINT THREE. ...My major rant, and the one I've been saving up for since I first heard about this episode. I've been waiting to see if they would bother to address this issue, and it seems that, typically they didn't. Actually, I'm surprised this hasn't been commented on, but none of the posts I've read so far have really mentioned it. For me, it's one of the main issues that come out of this contemplated action of B'Elannas. Here it is. Fact One: B'Elanna Torres is a serving officer aboard a Starfleet vessel (albeit under unusual circumstances) Fact Two: She is married to someone who is also a serving Starfleet Officer (also albeit under unusual circumstances) and a graduate of the Academy (no matter what rubbish was pedalled in Drive, we've already beaten that error to death), with a family tradition of generations of service to Starfleet, and a name that obviously carries some weight in the Federation. Given parents like those, it is not at all unlikely that any child of theirs would want to consider a career in Starfleet for themselves. Fact Three: Genetically manipulated people are automatically barred from serving in Starfleet - under any circumstance, in any capacity. We know this from Bashir's situation in DSN, where it was stated quite categorically. If B'Elanna had gone ahead with her plans to genetically alter her baby, she would have been automatically locking the child out of any future prospect of any career in Starfleet. In fact, from what I can gather from the Bashir Episode, this child would also be disbarred from taking any position of authority in the Federation itself. How can any mother contemplate doing something that will take away most of her child's meaningful choices for a future life and career? This must be the most monumentally, mind-meltingly selfish act that a parent could possibly undertake. On this evidence, this woman is simply not fit to be a mother. I don't particularly care how many buttons got pushed about her past, she was projecting her own fears and insecurities onto the baby rather than thinking about the baby as a future individual. Granted, a hell of a lot of people make this mistake in real life, but that doesn't make it right But what annoys me most, what bugs me completely, is that, because this point is 'inconvenient' to remember, the writers have chosen to gloss over it completely. Either Janeway or Paris SHOULD have brought this up, and both were prevented from doing so. That means that nobody is thinking about what REAL ramifications this action will have for this child in the future. In other words, the child is a plot point, not a potential person. Which leads back to Point One, where Tom's sleeping on Harry's sofa reveals that he too, is being treated as a plot point (we can get some good interaction if we...) and not as a real person within the context of the show, with real feelings and rights as an individual. So maybe the rants were related after all. Hello Muddah, Hello Faddah Looks like we're all in agreement on this one. It was a fabulous episode. I'm really impressed they didn't use a reset button or anything. We're gonna have a baby, folks. The episode really worked. Wonderful job. And there were no real bad guys, no ATOW to contend with. Just a simple, straightforward drama. And, suprisingly, I don't have a problem with anything. Oh, yes, I would have been saying that young B'Elanna was too sensitive too. But I only saw one weekend with her father. We never got a chance to see any of the previous 12 years (up to that point) in her life. Perhaps he'd said things like that on other occasions. Something caused her to be that sensitive, something we haven't seen. Something more than simple kids picking on her. I could identify with B'Elanna. I think a lot of us can. And I don't have a problem with B'Elanna's "irrational" behavior. Even with all the growth she's done these last seven years, she still carries this baggage around with her. The life or future life of her daughter, the fact she is going to have a daughter, is the most traumatic (dramatic, whatever...), the biggest event in her life at this point. Nothing like a major shock, major blow to cause us to revert to type, so to speak. B'Elanna's grown on her own, confronted her demons on her own and has reached a balance. But she's not won the war. She'll never win the war. She's not had any professional help in battling those demons, so it is understandable such a big thing upset her balance. We're all irrational beings. Sometimes we all fall back to where we were, where it's most comfortable. Even if we've made progress, or think we've made progress, in being rational, mature, balanced individuals; there can easily be someting that will just set us off. Yes, this was a great episode. Too bad there haven't been many more like this one up till now. Let's see... 30 weeks will be just over 7 months. Definitely after the series finale. If you use the 2 weeks per episode rule (say you have 26 episodes a year, times 2 weeks per episode equals a year's worth of time), that should put the baby as being born about the time of the last episode. What do you bet the baby comes early? Shawnster Vickie is right about pregnancy, Pixie...and a bit about the writers, too ...to which she and I can attest , and of which I'm sure all the other mom's here can attest-- I had a very normal and healthy pregnancy...every day from about the second or third week to about the second week of my 6th month, I had morning sickness...except it was "all-day sickness"...never actually vomited, but boy, it felt like I was going to any minute constantly... Now you might say, wait a minute, that's not normal...morning sickness is supposed to be in the morning and only in the first trimester... But no pregnancy follows the rule book exactly, and, in fact, as I think Vickie mentioned, even in the same woman pregnancies can vary as to effects on the momma-to-be. Emotional and physical effects of the boiling hormones? Honeychile, I tend to get not only get moody during PMS, but sometimes I get a little nauseous and light-headed, too; what do you think the full effects of pregnancy did? Wonderful skin, hair that grew like a weed, lots of energy despite the nausea (sounds oxymoronic, doesn't it?), and I cried in a second over things that I had never before (and still don't), frankly, gave/give a rat's @ss about--like whether or not I burned the pot roast (swear to God, I'm not exaggerating!...and the weird thing is, I like my pot roast very well done and even slightly charred on top)...I mean, Paul Anka's KODAK cameras commercial ("Remember yesterday...you wake up, and time has slipped away) made me bawl!!! Frankly, I think the writers were so on target that it was scary...I mean, who WERE these guys? Where'd did they come from? And more importantly... Can we get them to stay?? Mindy I think mental rape is about dead on! If you are to see HoloDoc as a fully sentiant being, and at this point in the series that seems to be what the writers are saying then what else can you call it? HoloDoc lost his free will. He lost the ability to choose for himself the treatment for his patients. B'Elanna took all that away in a single violent act. As to the Criminal act? You BET it was!!! Doc is the only surgeon on board! Tom is less of a Nurse then Kes was since SHE practiced weekly with Doc and had a passion for medicine that Tom lacks. He can do minor treatment and do that well but he is no Doctor. (Not a Tom slam, i think he would agree) B'Elanna risked the HoloDoc. Doc has NO BACKUP anymore. Programs are fragil things! What if she caused a cascade failure in his program? Corrupted the file? Wiped his hard drive? All of these things are very possible with a program. In fact we saw this almost happen to Doc many times. B'Elanna should have been thrown in the brig, and if Tom got a demotion then so should she. HERS was the worse crime IMHO since it was one against the crew. Eric Interesting, but I disagree, Ronit... Ronit wrote: She set them up to have that final revelatory conversation. For those of you (Mike) who believe that this episode has her taking a backward step, I think that this ultimately shows immense growth on her part. Mike: Even though I find your thoughts interesting, Ronit, I very much disagree that the ending shows immense growth for B'Elanna. It may show a break through on some level, as I believe Mrs. Mac said. B'Elanna has a ways to go. For one thing even if I did believe what you said was true (which I don't) and B'Elanna wanted Tom to catch her on some subconscious level, it only proves my point that the woman needs some serious counseling. Being driven to those extreems by her subconscious (as you imply) to achieve getting caught is the sign of a person in need of serious help. And I don't think the ending showed "immense growth" for her either, for me it showed how much counseling she is still in need of. Don't forget this woman miss-used her authority as chief engineer to reprogram the Doctor (a sentient being), lock out Tuvok's ability for security over-rides, and do other criminal like acts to achieve her personal goal. When Janeway refused to help her she simply found another way. If she did want to get caught, what would she have done early if Janeway had agreed to the procedure? I think Joyce mentioned that B'Elanna should be put in the brig for her crimes. I wouldn't take it that far, but if I were Captain I would insist she not return to duty till she had some in-depth counseling and a clean bill of mental health. And that counseling should also included her husband. Ronit said: After all, if she'd really set out to reprogram the Doc, she'd never have been caught. I believe she very much didn't want to get caught and did her best to prevent it in her condition. Remember she also went to Janeway to over rule the doctor, why would she have done that? Please don't say "B'Elanna knew Janeway would not agree". That's assuming to much. And if B'Elanna really is as good as you believe at covering her tracks, it was probably the fact she was in a rush to have the procedure done and not thinking as clearly that caused her to get caught, not her wanting to get caught by Tom. Subconscious wish to get caught or not, the woman needs help. And like I said before, I do like the character and want her to get the help she needs. Frankly, after this episode, I believe she still has a ways to go to achieve mental health and happiness. Yes, it was a break through at the end, but not a cure. BTW-this is very frustrating. I have wanted to write so many responses to things I've read here today. The response time on this board is extremely slow. I can't believe how long I had to wait to read each message, and my episode comments took even longer. I was about ready to give up. So I doubt I'll be writing much more. Ronit, please e-mail me if you want to continue this particular discussion so I can respond. Thanks, Mike It is criminal, not to mention stupid that the Doctor has not implemented security protocols as both he and Seven have mentioned in the past. Why put security on something if violation of it was not a criminal act. Anyway, I think the way they portrayed how B'Elanna was going about trying to change her baby's genetic make-up did not make her sympathetic. What made B'Elanna's character intersting was that she was flawed, but she also had overcome the adversity of growing up half-Klingon, being isolated and mistreated. The flashbacks only showed that she was being sensitive, except those involving her father and uncle, and final scene with her and her father. As I mentioned in my other post, I think the entire third portion of the episode would have been more effective, show more growth and character development without making B'Elanna look almost histrionic if they did the following. Maybe a scene showing her contemplate the possibility of altering the Doc's program. Maybe having a conversation with him while she is pretending to run a diagnostic or upgrade his program before she was about to reprogram, then realize during the course of the conversation, how wrong it would be. The agnst of being caught between wanting to change her baby and betraying the faith of a friend who is cheerfully talking to her would have been a haunting and effective moment. The dilemma and the turmoil of her emotions because of it, would lead to her finally having to face her actions, her past and get her to talk with Tom. Insert a scene with the other "hapas" on Voyager- Seven, and Naomi and talk to them about being accepted or not in Seven's case initially, would be effective as well. And instead of having mutiple flashbacks showing a young B'Elanna being oversensitive, have a series of flashbacks dealing with how hard it was to be half-Klingon, being abandoned or betrayed, shown from her adulthood backwards to her youth culminating in the camping trip scenes with her father/uncle and father/B'Elanna, the root of her angst. Now that would have shown me more about B'Elanna, who she is as a person, what is making her tick, and how she is continuing to grow beyond her past and resolve some of it. Awesome Dawson!!! I'd write more but it took me *15* minutes to get this far into the board. I haven't even read anyone's reviews because they just won't #*$&#*$ come up. Please note: The reason why I'm not archiving is because I simply can't bring the threads up. it stinks. mac. Hmmmm, i think the crew especialy Seven would have caught on.... ...to poor brain damedged Doc. Yeesh, that scene just bugged the heck out of me! I mean Seven put security measures on Doc to prevent this very thing! Eric Well, it was probably the accumulation of similar incidents. Oh, I never meant to say it wasn't--I completely agree it was damaging to her. What I was saying in was hearing her father's confession was a most horrible, pinpointed moment, a "last straw." --And yes, I also felt the pain of her betrayal pounding in my chest. To me it was a desperate cry for help. I completely agree, with that and others' comments on the same...Wow. I can still feel it. The ironic twist is that if she had succeeded in what she was about to do she would have almost certainly permanently damaged her relationship with Tom. Her daughter might have to suffer through their problems as well. I'd actually mentioned this irony a couple times, after first reading the spoilers, and then after reading the script. Egad, how many layers this episode gave us! It's been said on other sites--I haven't read through all the ones here yet for today--and on my mailing lists, and I have to agree with it: This was the finest hour of Voyager drama, probably one of the best TV eps, I have ever seen. The more I think about it, the more it unfolds, psychologically, emotionally, just everywhere... Okay, off to read other posts before I make myself even more redundant here. Is James Kahn a God? James Kahn wrote LINEAGE and CRITICAL CARE...in other words, two of the very best episodes of the season. both are wonderfully Trekky in that they are morality-play allegorical tales that deal with resonant, topical issues in a metaphorical way. Having rewatched LINEAGE today, I can safely say it's a great episode...troubling, difficult, and great--and probably, other than The GIFT, the most emotionally overwhelming episode of VOY Ive seen. Im still disturbed by B'Ellanna reprogramming the Doc...but I do think it was also a--the most--desperate cry for help, for company in what she was going through. this doesnt excuse it, but i find it impossible not to feel deeply for what B'Ellanna goes through in this episode. All around a classic--interestingly, despite my initial fears (that this would be an episode i found to painful to rewatch), i think LINEAGE will be an episode I often return to. And an episode on VOY's list of great episodes. david g No, just a writer with previous TV experience And what a difference that makes! My tape of LINEAGE didn't work, and frankly I needed that adrenalin shot STAT after watching the SHATTERED borefest today, but the thing about Kahn that is good is that he, unlike the rest of the Voyager writing staff save Biller has experience on other TV shows and actually seems to tap into that experience. For the rest, Voyager is their first jobs and even after a few years, it still shows. Jason The Doc has every reason to be forgiving, though... I didn't see this episode so I can't really comment on what happened, but if the Doctor responded compassionately as apparently he did, maybe it's out of his own guilt for not only paralyzing B'Elanna back in season three, but for getting her stuck on the ship of horrors just one episode back in FLESH AND BLOOD. The Doctor has done his own fair share to B'Elanna in the past, even if inadvertantly. Maybe this is why he apparently wasn't outraged by what she had done. Jason Tom better be more skilled then that. Doc is the only surgeon on board! Tom is less of a Nurse then Kes was since SHE practiced weekly with Doc and had a passion for medicine that Tom lacks. He can do minor treatment and do that well but he is no Doctor. (Not a Tom slam, i think he would agree) If that is the case then Janeway and the doc need to be not only relieved of duty but thrown in the slammer for crimminal neglect and incompetence. Janeway would need to be relieved of duty and put away somewhere and the doc reprogramed. Tom must have more skills then that, and the doc has said as much, or there is no way Janeway would have let the doc go to earth for a month or consider leaving Voyager permanetly. That would be beyond stupid bordering on the moronic. Hence, I don't see the doc as such a fragile being or of irreplacable importance. B'Elanna has always been in charge of his program, it is only logical that she could go in and make changes without triggering a security lock. Yes, he was taken advantage of and that was wrong but rape is a very strong word and not to be bandied about. Shadda Well, apparently the Doc still had free will since he stopped the medical procedure. He was confused why they wanted him to stop but he was able to realize something was wrong even if he could figure out what. Part of what makes LINEAGE great, Jason... is that it has such acess to really raw and painful feelings some of us have about our adolescence..i really commend Kahn for tapping into that--and Im eager to hear what you think when you do watch it. david g I liked it, but you have a point, or two First, Tom has become a plot device in the story, or arc, of B'Elanna. Deb pointed out that this was a wonderful ending to the Torres arc starting with "Faces" and ending with "Lineage". Unfortunately, Tom has no story arc going on. I suppose we could say that his arc started with "Caretaker" and ended with the single line, " tell him I'm proud of him" in "Pathfinder" with a throw away line here and there in between. Wow, a whole line devoted to tying up the conflict between Tom and his father. How generous. Second, I have wondered about those windows myself. Why wouldn't the senior staff get the good rooms. One of the perks to go with all that responsibility. Maybe we just haven't seen their windows or they have kept their blinds closed. That being said, Tom was wonderful in this episode. This is the Tom I have been looking for since about half way through the 4th season. I could kiss Biller Shadda I don't consider the loss of a Starfleet career as important enough to make B'Elanna change her mind about her child. Besides, there's the point that B'Elanna first attempt at such a career was a total failure, due to her lack of self-confidence. Her second chance was just luck. I doubt Bashir's parents cared that he might not make it in Starfleet. Making sure of their child's happiness is more important. shadda, i too welcome the return of Tom--what sharp perfs from the rest, too. he's been so fratty since S6 that id forgotten how kindhearted he really is--what has always made me love him. RDM was wonderful last night, as was RD...in fact, everyone was great last night, esp the leads. Picardo gave a wonderfully nuanced performance as well--here's the doc i love! but this ep will be chiefly remembered for the SUPERB performances of RD and RDM. david g Okay, last but not least, the west coast responds. I loved it and I haven't said that about a Voyager episode in a long time. I've said I like, or really like, but love...that hasn't happened in almost forever. Of course there were flaws. Nothing is perfect. Why didn't we hear anything about our original "bad dad" Admiral Paris from his son? Afterall, we started the series with that story line, it could have gotten a nod somewhere in there. But that is a minor point and not that important. Overall it was great and very thought provoking. I won't rehash what everyone else has said. I'm just so glad to have Tom back. The real Tom was front and center in this episode. This is the Tom I've been waiting for and he finally showed back up. Now all I want to do is take Braga across my knee and give him the spanking he deserves for distroying my fav character for two years. Biller is a Prince Roxann was magnificient. I could really feel B'Elanna's pain. As someone who has gone through two pregnancies, I agree with those who said, it is an emotional time. I would like to also point out that just because you are emotional, does not mean that the things that bother you are insignificant or unimportant. Sometimes it takes strong hormones to get things out in the open that have been bothering you for a long time. All to often we sweep things under the rug, just like B'Elanna did and it takes those raging hormones for you to finally stand up and say "enough". By the way, the board loads fine for me and I am able to navigate without a problem. Sorry, those of you who are having problems. I don't want to miss all of the interesting things you have to say. Shadda Genetic tinkering I'll take a shot at your third point. Genetic manipulation is certainly OK for purely medical purposes; the spinal defect here, Cakotay's "crazy gene", etc. The pathogen Icheb's parents planted in his genes is probably no problem either since it didn't affect his intelligence or abilities, just made him toxic to the Borg. On the other hand genetic enhancments like Bashir and Kahn are illegal because they not only enhance abilities but have the potential for harm (Kahn's megalomania) and other behavioral problems (the group Bashir dealt with). What B'Elanna wanted to do I think falls somewhere in the grey area in between. Probably frowned upon but probably not illegal since it would have altered appearance and deleted some Klingon traits but wouldn't have enhanced her intelligence or physical abilities. Re: B'Elanna needs help.... B'Elanna has always needed a LOT of help... and she's been getting it. But help can only do so much, if someone is in denial about the problem. For B'Elanna, she's slowly peeled the onion of her personality to reveal the various layers of her problem. With Klingonesque ("Faces"), with lost friends ("Hunters" & "Extreme Risk"), with Love ("Displaced", and "Day of Honor"), with Mom/Mama Janeway ("Barge of the Dead") and with Dad ("Faces" & "Lineage"). But each layer relates to the other, and ultimately relates to that which (IMO) is now most important to her. Her relationship with Tom. The child not only ran the risk of being rejected by Tom for her Klingonesque, B'Elanna ran the risk (in HER Op) of losing Tom too. It was something so fearful, however, that she wouldn't mention it... even when she finally owned up to the "sin" of sending her father away. Yep... BLT needs help, and Tom finally realizes how MUCH help she needs. He also has discovered... that she is now willing to share her deepest fears, and so stands a chance of recovering. As for the counseling... well, I think you can safely say that B'Elanna WILL be in counseling... that's why she over-rode her husband's wish for godfather, and her "best friend's" request. Who better to be "godfather" than the one who will be chaperoning that counseling, for the next 23 weeks/years?
D47 He Also has been the recipient of unexpected compassion/forgiveness from Janeway in that "Flesh & Blood" ep. Wasn't that a gospel parable? The servant (#1) lost a bunch of his master's money and expected to be sold to pay off the debt. The master instead forgave it and sent him on his way. But as he left, the servant ran into a fellow servant (#2) who owed HIM some money. When his fellow couldn't pay, he threw him into prison to be sold. Until the master heard about it, dragged servant #1 in front of his throne, chastized him for not extending the same compassion he was himself given, and then sold the ingrate (#1) to pay off the bills. The Doc has definately learned THAT lesson well. What goes around, does indeed comes around. Eventually. And anyway... B'Elanna was not only contrite, she wouldn't even accept the Doc's offer to let her off the hook by reason of "biochemistry." Sigh.
D47 And, Mrs Mac... as they say... "Who... ...watches the watchers? Excellent point! D47 Hyperbole aside... I think Ronit is dead on/and "rape" is dead wrong. The Doc proceeded to a conclusion based on a lie. That 2 + 2 = 47. A conclusion that was so obviously wrong, that his MEDIC could see something was kooky. That a borg teen with genetics in his... well... "genes" could decipher and explain away. "Sure", if we think 2+2=47 it makes sense... but WE know it's really = 4. Now, B'Elanna DID reprogram him to believe a mistake, and it WOULD have been a mental assault for the Doc to have gone THROUGH with the procedure and then been given the ability to "see" and have to live with the effects of the miscalculation. But that didn't happen. The Doc never mistakenly operated. He never committed a crime (as he would have seen it) against the baby, and therefore never had to suffer the consequences of that crime. He certainly COULD have been incensed at what B'Elanna did to him... but you know... he's "bigger" than that. He can see that there were more things at work here than a simple difference of opinion. And as for forgiveness... well, we've already talked about how the DOC was forgiven in "Flesh & Blood" at being the cause of B'Elanna's abduction, and Janeway's betrayal... not to mention forgiven for deserting his crew in "Virtusoso", or in tampering with his program which resulted in him Physically and Psychologically Torturing B'Elanna in "Darkling". Does it excuse her? Nope, nor is it supposed to. It does, however, remind us that the Doc has been taught, personally, the quality of forgiveness. D47 Since it's getting almost impossible for me to use the board without screaming I'm hoping I can get this up. Shadda, you've hit upon why the hormonal stuff annoyed me. Not because pregnancy doesn't feature such miseries, but because B'Elanna's feelings and concerns were real and being "hormonal" wasn't a reason to dismiss them. I haven't been pregnant, but I'm experiencing that kind of dismissal at times (even from physicians) as part of menopause, and it makes me want to throw things. I've said elsewhere that I "liked" certain things about this episode. However, I found it hard to watch because (as I hesitated to say out loud all day yesterday, and finally said over at Psi Phi), it squicked me. Some people here say that a Janeway/Tuvok pon farr episode, no matter how well done, was something they didn't find entertaining and didn't want to see. Some people felt that way about holo-sex. So while this one worked for me dramatically, I didn't ENJOY it. (Please, before anyone tries to tell me why I should have - I didn't tell you that you had to enjoy "Spirit Folk.") Know what you mean, Nina, about the squick factor. Couple of weeks ago had a bday party for a friend. Chinese food and videos. They wanted to watch this "famous" Bill Murray comedy and although I could find things to laugh at while watching... the whole thing was "too close to home" for me to enjoy. "They" apologized, between their guffaws, and I drifted off to sleep in defense of the onslaught. D47 Go ahead, scream, it's good for the lungs I would never say you had to enjoy Lineage Nina. Someone telling me what I should or should not like makes me nuts. What made it work for me was that Tom did finally realize that it wasn't hormones. At first he does attribute it to the pregnancy, but very quickly figures out that that isn't it. It was realistic that his first reaction would be "hormones", he is a man after all, I wouldn't have believed anything else. Now, whether or not everyone else finally realized that the issues were real I don't know. The important person to B'Elanna, Tom, no longer dismissed her feelings and in fact sought to reassure her. Well, I guess I better get going. Work, those ugly 1099's and W2's, call. Shadda Excellent points about B'Elanna, D47,.... D47 said: As for the counseling... well, I think you can safely say that B'Elanna WILL be in counseling... that's why she over-rode her husband's wish for godfather, and her "best friend's" request. Mike: I hope you're right, it makes sense. But you know Voyager, what makes sense in what *should* happen next and what does happen are two different things. I expected she would have gotten some real help after 'Extreme Risk' when she was suicidal. What did they do, council her on that and ignore the rest of her problems? And she may have made Doc Godfather has a way of appologizing for what she did to his program and to show she does think of him as "a person". I'm not sure it was an indication of her acknowleging she needs help from him too. Mike Download site for Lineage Just found this Voyager episode download site: http://www.galanter.net/MyInterests/StarTrek/Downloads/Downloads.asp Apparently, one can download Lineage as well as Shattered. Don't know how well it works. Just passing the info along. Di Re: Tom better be more skilled then that. Of course, I could be wrong, because I've only read the synopsis once - but isn't there a reference in 'Shattered' to Tom being the Senior Medical officer? If so, he ain't no nurse. The Doctor has referred to him as 'a competant medic' (not a competant nurse) and has claimed that he is 'more than capable' of looking after the sick bay while the Doc was away. In Virtuoso, the doctor actually LEFT the ship permananently and quite obviously handed over the sickbay to Tom. Now he may not be the equivalent of a qualified doctor, but he must be at least on a par with Kes, who never took over the sickbay except in an emergency when the Doc wasn't available. I didn't like it much either. I did enjoy seeing an episode without all the flash, bam, bang, but I'm getting a little tired of the "It's not my fault; it's my parents, or my hormones, or I'm Klingon." Sometimes I think the writers of Voyager like to beat a topic to death. Roxanne You're quite welcome, Roxanne. I can't believe that I agree with Michelle Greene about a Voyager episode, but I suppose anything can happen in this world. Today her review hits some points I founds resonant - although I must say that frightens me a bit. http://www.geocities.com/poohplustigger/voyreviews/lineage.htm (I don't dare preview this. If it doesn't come out as intended, can't help it!) I do have one bone to pick... ...with Michelle Greeene and a few posters here who have said the same thing: that B'Elanna wanted to change her daughter's appearance in order to "keep her man." IMHO this is just completely off base. B'Elanna's fears are not so much that Tom will leave her, but that Tom, like B'Elanna's father, will leave his daughter. I think B'Elanna was acting out of a desire to protect her daughter, not a desire to protect herself. Have a nice weekend, everybody. Vickie Relief for those across the pond--and now even the Cynic likes it! Cool Stuff! I am amazed and very pleased. sniff! I still miss Jim, though. Re: I do have one bone to pick... Although I think the "leaving her" was a factor, I DO agree that the main reason was the "leaving the daughter". Who was it, you? AC? AChamp? who commented about how protective one becomes of your offspring. That one would do "anything" to protect them? Given the fact that B'Elanna came to grips with the fact that it wasn't the fact that being "one way while everyone else was another way" was the source of her pain. That simply being "different" from Dad was what she felt estranged her from him... it would seem reasonable to see her go to great lengths to prevent that. Hey, if I let down my guard and "love" Tom and he leaves me... "well... I'll survive... But, if I let down my guard, love him, create a child that adores him and THEN he leaves... " That pain felt not just for herself but magnified through her daughter's loss could be unimaginable for her. But... this is all academic. Cuz TOM "ain't no John Snorezzzz" Loved the line from Harry, when Tom lamented over what kind of childhood will the baby have with them as parents. "She'll have a GREAT childhood. Piloting Voyager from your lap... battling Lord Chaotica..." Can't you just SEE Tom playing on the holodeck with her! "Daddy... YOU be Buster this time! I want to be Captain Proton!"
D47 Paging the EMH... Mike said"what *should* happen next and what does happen are two different things." Yeah, Mike... I "do" know Voyager... but hey, I'm also willing to give them the benefit of the doubt. (;-) ) Getting back to our Fav engineer... Ya know... the "Doc" can only do so much. If I can use Billy Telfor as a perfect example... Remember the kid from "Good Shepard" who was afraid of away missions, afraid of medicines, afraid of counseling? The Doc "wanted" to counsel him, but the kid refused. Of course, the Doc was still "spending" lots of time with him weekly... he just didn't "call" it counseling so the kid didn't run screaming from the room. Does that mean their weekly meetings are productive? No, not necessarily. But it does mean Billy has access, once he's ready to "talk". After Extreme Risk, I'm sure BLT was "made" to seek counseling, but whether she "accepted" all that she could get out of it is a different kettle of Gakh entirely. The fact that by Juggernaut, she was placed into "counseling" with Tuvok, suggests that she didn't respond well to anything from the EMH that year, and they (read Janeway) were seeking a different tack. No, the thing I like about the ending this week, is that B'Elanna went out of her way to SEEK the Doctor's forgiveness by apologizing... and admitted that WHAT SHE DID WAS WRONG! And... to invite him to "join" her and Tom "in" the life of their daughter. I doubt significantly that she was trying to bribe him by offering tat particular plum to his ego. Of course... I am biased, so... take it all with a huge shaker of salt.
D47 Re: "And what a difference that makes!" AMEN, Jason!!!! The great thing about Kahn is that he doesn't treat TREK as some sacred cow that can't be touched. He brings a humanity, i.e., drama, to the show that has been sadly lacking, imho. It's just too bad that TREK hasn't actively gone after other writers with experience outside the TREK world. Being home today, I watched TOS on the Sci-Fi channel...it was RETURN OF THE ARCHONS...granted, now the whole of idea of a computer gone mad is pedestrian, but remember in 1966, most people barely knew what a computer was, much less knew science fiction could be more than a bug-ugly monster threatening a beautiful wench. Roddenberry did one extremely smart thing...well, actually, it was Harlan Ellison who got the ball rolling--after the showing of the pilot at the World Convention (1965, I think), Harlen started a campaign to get some of the best and most forward looking science fiction writers of the day to write episodes for TREK...Sturgeon, Spinrad, and others. These men not only knew how to "explore strange new worlds," but how to extrapolate the human condition into that setting. The first year, year-and-a-half of TREK was groundbreaking in many ways, and I think without these writers's influence, it would have been a far different show. I don't know how Kahn "got permission" to "mess" with VOYAGER, but I'm glad he did, and only sorry that it's happening now, in the last year. Mindy I especially dont agree w/one point, D'Alaire I mean the Cynic's! He negatively critqued the guest actors this week but I thought they were perfect, esp the guy playing B'Elanna's father... he was GREAT! i really marvelled at his ability to be so smooth and likabel WHILE hinting at real reserves of coldness and insensitivity and genuine i-better-get-outta-here selfishness. D'Alaire, loved what you said about the episode getting richer the more you think about it. me too. david g Tom's the one who always referred to himself as "nurse" In that sarcastic, defensive, self-depreciating way he has. I don't remember anybody else ever referring to his sickbay role as anything other than medic though. I agree with you that his status is probably something less than "doctor", because he's still learning and training as he goes along. But I'd guess that with the help of the computer library and twenty-fourth century medical equipment, he's probably advanced enough now to have the knowledge to absorb and comprehend the knowledge he doesn't yet have, when need arises for it, and can indeed get by in treating most medical complaints. Jules Missed opportunities Another example of them setting something up and then failing to develop it in an interesting way, and even worse, being totally inconsistent about the way they refer to it. In some episodes, they use Janeway, Seven, anyone except Tom to assist the Doctor. They've never developed what could have been an interesting conflict between Paris's bridge responsibilities and his medical ones, they've never let us see whether he is in fact training or even if he's actually become interested in medicine after his initial alarm at having to do it. Having independent status as a doctor would give him something other than his reputation as a pilot to hang some self-esteem onto, and one of the things that is weak about the Doctor as a character in the show is that there is no one on the entire ship who is capable of arguing with him on a technical level, so it would also give the doctor a foil. Ah me. Still, the same accusations (inconsistency and underdevelopment) could be levelled at almost every character and aspect of the show. Sometimes I expect too much - it is only a commercial product after all. And the majority of people who watch it genuinely don't care, so why should the makers? Of course, if the original TOS had had that attitude, it would never have gotten past two years and none of the rest of it would ever have happened. I mourn for those missed opportunities too Watching Tom's development as medic would have been an interesting minor plot thread to weave through the seasons. It wouldn't have been the sort of issue that could mangle episode continuity if the suits at UPN decided to indulge in their random switching around of episode order, because it wouldn't be frequent enough for that... but it would give the character a personal development arc. It's something that all of the characters deserve, it'd keep people's emotional investment in the characters and their lives up and keep them tuning in, without confusing the occasional watchers, and it would enhance the series significantly. I do appreciate some of the arguments against having a story (or rather a plot) arc that continues from episode to episode, particularly when it comes to reruns and syndication where episodes are so often shown out of order, but it still baffles me a little that TPTB don't seem to see that this is all we're really asking for when it comes to continuity, and that they'd generally only have to change a line or two to provide it. Jules Baby Due Date: 4 Jul Presuming we are in "real time"...BIG presumption. Here's the math- On Jan 23rd she was 7 weeks pregnant in a 30 week gestational period. That leaves 23 weeks to go. With a quick calculation, she's due on 4 Jul. My bet: By either time compression or "early arrival", the baby shows up in the second to last episode. Hey...let's have a baby betting pool! Gender is already a given. I pick the episode on 16 May 01. Sue_B Actually, Ive never really seen or been comfortable with Tom as medic, much less doctor I thought Kes was great in this rle, but why put Tom in it? my guess is, TPTB thought Tom would be a good comic foil forthe Doc...but Tom's never seemed to me the personality type to really minister to people's medical needs (not to say he isnt kindhearted because he is). i liked your previous suggestion, Jules, that Samantha Wildman be made medic..o well. baring that, i think Harry, winsome guy, would have been a better choice. david g Character arcs don't have to be huge involved story lines. In fact, most real growth in incrimental. I too mourn the loss of the character growth they could have done with Tom. Actually there was character growth right up to "Vis-a-Vis", then, all of a sudden they equated restlessness with irrisponsibility. They are two very different things and their confusion damaged the character for a long time. In fact, using his restlessness as a story arc would have been interesting. I am pleased to say that in "Lineage" they, or at least Biller and the writer, what is his name, have finally given us the Paris we have been waiting for since season 3. All it takes is a competent, mature writer and producer. Considering what these people get paid I don't think it's too much to ask. Yes, Tom is far more then a nurse, and probably even a medic. Interestingly Tom's confusion over the genetic readings was due to his assumption that the doc didn't make mistakes, not his, Tom's, inability to understand the material. He read the material, it didn't make sense because there was an error in it. Tom assumed he simply wasn't understanding it when in fact he was understanding it and it was wrong. Icheb didn't go in with that assumption so he easily could see the error for what it was. That shows a far greater understanding of medicine then a medic has or someone that just plays around the edges of it. Only certain characters are apparently able to have arcs on this show. I guess TPTB aren't quite sharp enough to be able to juggle 9 characters as once. That being the case, they shouldn't have tried. It is important to understand ones limitations. Shadda, enjoying the new board. My first post. I never read Michelle Green No matter what Tom does, it's wrong. She complained about him rushing in to save, though I don't like that word for it, his child. If he hadn't rushed, you can bet she would have complained about that too. She said he left B'Elanna because she was being emotional. I didn't see where he left B'Elanna, I though B'Elanna threw him out of their quarters. A preemptive strike as it were. She was afraid he would leave her so she beat him to the punch. Michelle doesn't like that character, so people who don't like that character also, probably like her reviews. She complained about the emotionalisim. How very patriarcle of her. The mind set is the emotionalisim, being female by some assumptions, is a bad thing. The point I was trying to make in my earlier post, and apparently didn't, is that emotionalisim is okay. Just because it is something we equate with women, we automatically assume it is a weakness and being unemotional is a strength. Who says? B'Elanna did go to extremes. So do men on occasion. Emotions are not illogical. When looked at closely, they make perfect sense. We should not be afraid of them. When a woman is being emotional, it doesn't mean that she isn't thinking clearly. She may be thinking more clearly then ever. Anything taken to extremes is distructive, even unemotionalism and logic. Some of the deadliest killers in the world have been very logical and unemotional, cold and calculating. They say love is a form of insanity. Not really. It is the natural state by which the species advances, nurtures and sustains itself. What is insane about that? We need more emotionalisim in this world. There wouldn't be as much cruelty. Okay, I'm getting off of my soap box now. By the way Nina, have you ever read any of Christian Northrup's books. She is very good talking about women and our patriarcle society. She is an MD but she does have a strong sociology bent to her work and could probably give you some amunition when talking to your own doctors. Shadda I didn't at first either, But, and there is always a but The thing I thought would be good about it was the conflict between needing him on the bridge and needing him in sickbay. Having him in sickbay did show how the ship is not operating under normal circumstances. People have to do things they normally wouldn't be doing and there are going to be conflicts between those duties. If they had used that the way the could and should have they would have shown the conflict and brought a bit more reality and grittyness to their situation without showing the ship in a shambles like some people want. The problems that arise when you have limited "human resources" but still multiple demands would have only needed to be a few scenes a season but would have done wonders. Anyway, I wouldn't mind having Tom as my doctor Shadda But I simply avoid her column for the raw negativity she always seems to project--even when she likes an ep. I simply get no pleasure whatsoever from reading her opinions, this aside from the other issues associated with her name. Baby Due Date: May 9, 2001 in our time. Sue_B, I calculate the real date differently. I figure each year has 52 weeks and 26 Voyager eps. Therefore, average of two weeks elapse between episodes. 30-7=23/2=11.5 episodes Lineage was only the 11th ep this season. However, B'Elanna is not fully Klingon so .... 24th ep is two weeks from the finale. Unless the finale counts as two? Oh well, it'll be in May sweeps period anyway. Jules, is there anyway to reset my password with deleting the entire profile? James Kahn's only other writing credits are for "Melrose Place" (20 episodes) and (1?) episode of TNG. ARGHHHHHH!!! Why didn't I listen to Shadda??? This woman (not Shadda) is really starting to twirk me! It's one thing to fall "out of like" with Mulgrew and her character for whatever reason, but is there a reason she has to savage EVERYONE on Voyager? I heartily agree with Shadda that just because a woman has emotions, there's no reason to denigrate her. Makes me think of that great scene in "Courage Under Fire"... the Gulf War movie about a woman helicopter pilot dieing in the line of duty. We hear the story from many different views, about her "crying" at night... and finally we see "her" explanation. "Its just stress, "they" don't mean anything." Yeah, guys can go out and punch holes in walls, and its "ok" but let a woman get a little emotional as a way to let off steam and we're "hysterical". (walking away to cool off.... Nah... its not working.) And... if we're going to get technical about "Tom's and everbody's" supposed sexist interpretation of B'Elanna's "mood swings"... How about a little serving of "sexism" for some of the reviewers of this show? "Just" because B'Elanna is in a GOOD mood... we assume THAT'S hormonal? Just because the Chief engineer comes around a corner and sees (only) Icheb playing alone with Voyager's Warp corp and rounds on him... THAT's hormonal? (I guess I've been preganat for the last 12 years, cause if I walk into a room and find someone with their hands on stuff they have no right to be grabbing, I go a little Klingon myself!) And, before I forget AGAIN... Let me extend a very big THANK-YOU to all the ladies on the board who have spoken up about the effects of pregnancy on not only your psyche, but your body. I mention that, cause "B'Elanna's little "fainting" spell wasn't because she's a "fragile" little woman given to getting the "vapors"... its because (as the EMH said so simplistically) creating new life is a big job. The changes in blodd volume and the drop in blood pressure are necessary... and "take" some getting used to. Now, lest Shadda And... why we're defending Tom... (oh, Shadda... I'm GETTING to him next!) How the Heck does Ms Greene KNOW that KJ didn't extend the same offer to Helmboy when she got HIM into a (maternal Sigh. Shadda, you are right. If Tom had stayed and "forced" the issue that night, he'd have been flayed open for being "insensitive" and overbearing, or Godforbid... a BULLY! But he didn't... in a small ship where he knows his wife has little place to go and be with her thoughts, HE retreated and gave her some space. And, while he was gone, he wasn't playing or drinking with the boys, he was talking to HIS confidant about HER and, if I may be so bold, getting same d@mned fine advice in the process. I realize that everyone has theie own agenda, and that we ALL (me included) see things in a story that may or maynot be there... but I also grouse at the derision that Voy opened up some topics of interest and "dropped" the ball in favor of a back story that "she" MG wasn't aware of. Oh geez.... I've got to go. Maybe I'll cool off by this evening. D47 You go girl!!! Writing 500 times: I will not post Michelle Green links. I will not post Michelle Green links. I will not post Michelle Green links...! Agreeing to disagree, Nina Re: Sam Wildman as Medic. Actually, isn't she "one" of Voyager's Medics? Seems like I recall Tom talking of switching shifts in sickbay with her. Could be my imagination... I suspect, the reason we have one of the "big 9" being the medic is to prevent there being a "big 10". I have no problem with Tom playing that role... Harry certainly was/is much too young for the job, and Janeway/Chak/Tuvok are much too busy. Neelix? Who's ready to disrobe in front of NEELIX???? Kes? She's been there, and is now gone. Sorry to say. Seven? Are you out of your mind? I suspect her bedside manner would be akin to... "Sorry, Ensign, but your pursuit of personal 'perfection' has obviously failed." (But to be fair... she "did" do quite well with B'Elanna in "Lineage".... And not to make a big deal out of this, but... I really appreciated the fact that Seven actually escorted B'Elanna To sickbay. I get ticked off everytime I watch "Flashback" and Janeway SENDS a dizzy Tuvok alone to sickbay, and he collapses as he enters the door. Thank gosh he didn't collapse in the Turbolift!) As for Dr B'Elanna... well... lets just say I suspect she'd have more patience with a warpcorp than a Pharoah's hangnail.
D47 Re: Baby Due Date: May 9, 2001 True, Terry, but remember the EMH also warned us that Klingon/Human hybrid pregnancies often go quicker than pure Klingon pregnancies. Then there's that "first babies are NEVER on time rule...." D47 Writing 500 times: And I'm right there with you, Nina... I will not read Michele Greene... I will not read Michele Greene... I will not read Michele Greene... Believe it or not, I "see" where she's coming from, but I honestly can't understand how she got to some of these places. I've reread parts of the review, and was again struck by several things. (Trying to be more calm about it this time. First, why should CAPTAIN Janeway be involved in this personal matter at all? MG suggests that Janeway wimps out by deferring to the Doctor... "without citing one precedent" to back him over B'Elanna. But honestly, would you go to your "boss" to get him/her to "make" your Doctor do something he says is ethically questionable? I though it was quite appropriate for Janeway to tell both of the people arguing in her office to "take it" outside. That IF they wanted her input as a FRIEND, she was willing to help. But only as a friend. The real issue was exactly as Janeway and the EMH saw it. A marital problem centering on communication, or lack thereof. (Oh, and I protest her suggestion that Sam Wildman was afraid Janeway was going to tell her to abort the pregnancy 6 years ago. I also thought it was specious for B'Elanna (and MG) to throw the argument into Janeway's face that BLT was "only" doing what Janeway did for Seven of Nine. Janeway never planned on surgically deborgifying Seven. It was a decision forced upon her by the fact that Seven's human physiology was rejecting the borg components, and therefore they had to be removed to save her life. I suspect, by "using" Seven's case as an arguing point, BLT was reminded "why" the Doc did what he did to Seven. And, therefore, showed her "how" she could get him on her side with the baby. Make it "appear" that the baby was in jeopardy. Any "personality" problems etc that occurred because of the manipulation then would be "worth" the risk. Oh, and speaking of "the baby"... I really don't know why MG was so concerned that the parents and the people around them were referring to "the baby" as "the baby". How many people walk up to a pregnant woman and inquire after "the fetus"? (Well, other than some weird 4th year medical students who refered to themselves as {think Ghostbusters} "Premiebusters! No Fetus can beat us!") I DO hear your concern about "what" does it mean, to have the "father" storm a medical facility to protect the baby... and I know that I have no answer for you. In a world that's ruled by "precedent"... anything that may seem to contravene someone's "rights" in this arena would seem.... wrong to many people. But to my way of thinking, just because I have the right to free speech, doesn't mean I can yell "fire" in a movie theater. And just because I can'T yell "fire", doesn't make me fear being told I can't express my opinion about an election in public "one day". I've had the same arguments with people who claim preventing the right to "own" automatic submachine guns will be the first step in taking away my "right to bear arms" one day. Again... to my way of thinking, Tom "wasn't" storming a medical facility... he was literally breaking through the barriers that his life partner had erected between his heart and hers. He had to break through the door, break through the forcefield, and break through the trauma of her childhood, in order to find the real fear that drove her. That the man she loved, the man she adored, the man who had helped to bring a new life within her... would do what the last man she loved did. Walk away. Without a word. Without an explanation. Without a second thought. Was it Michele? Or was it the Monkee review I read, that "hated" this possibility? One of them felt it was "beneath" Torres to NEED anyone. How sad. Although I agree with Ann Landers' axiom... "That it is better to BE alone, than wish you were." I don't believe Ann ever suggested that being alone WAS preferable to finding a rewarding relationship. And to this P/Ter's way of thinking, these two have SUCH potential at doing just that. Thank TPTBs. D47 Deb, you misunderstand me. I will read Michelle Green. I agreed with what she said. I was apologizing for offending you and Shadda. Subject closed. Nina, I did understand, I was just making an (obviously poor) joke. I was not "offended" by your link. I was trying to explain, less hotheadly than in my first post, why Ms Green's review did not "sit" with me. I'm sorry that my post on the subject under discussion seems to have crossed the line. Seems like I've been doing that a lot lately. Guess I should just stick to using icons from now on. As you said...Subject closed. D47 Re: Dr. Paris He may be well on the way to completing a medical degree; there have been conversations between him and Doc about studies. In fact I'd guess a lot of the crew have started or gotten around to completing undergraduate and graduate degrees. With little shore leave, let alone vacation leave, and long stretches of dull space even without the void, correspondence courses have probably been popular. If Baby Alexander is any indication... Hm, let's see... K'Ehleyr got pregnant at the end of TNG's second season, and when she appeared with toddler Alexander in tow on the Enterprise, it was only the beginning of the fourth... a little over a year between intervals. So by my admittedly hasty estimates, B'Elanna should be giving birth any time next week. Not much time to pick a gift for the baby shower. Jason Re: If Baby Alexander is any indication... Not to mention that by the time he was 10 or was it 12 he was on board a klingon ship, fighting the Dominion!
D47 Hmm. Perhaps I picked the wrong sweeps period. I think there's a good chance that B'Elanna and Tom's baby will be born during one of the sweeps episodes... just to maximise all that nice viewer number potential. So, I was going for the first week of May sweeps, but I guess that the end of February sweeps would work just as well if you take the Alexander factor into account. No idea what episode number that would translate to. It also leaves me wondering about the longevity differential between the full-human Tom Paris and his half-Klingon wife. That was something that was touched upon briefly where Kes and relationships were concerned, perhaps because her lifespan was so drastically different from that of the rest of the crew, but does anyone know how the Klingon lifespan equates to humans? Even if it's similar, there's got to be a culture adjustment to having a child that matures so fast. Jules In DS9, didn't we see some of the TOS Klingon warriors still very much around? Developing faster in childhood may not equate to having a shorter lifespan overall. In fact, if memory is serving me (which it admittedly might not be Someone want to check me on this, please? You remind me, Shadda of a discussion about female scientists Shadda wrote: The point I was trying to make in my earlier post, and apparently didn't, is that emotionalisim is okay. Just because it is something we equate with women, we automatically assume it is a weakness and being unemotional is a strength. Who says? A number of years ago at a scientific conference I attended a meeting of women scientists at which there were several invited speakers. One talked about how women scientists often choose to forgo an academic career because the demands on your time and energy are considered incompatible with having a family. Then, another raised the question of why, just because a particular way of doing things has been adopted by men, did we assume that it was the right way, or the best way to go about doing those things. She asked "Who says that the only way to conduct scientific research is 16 hours a day, 6-7 days a week?" The audience reaction was sort of a collective, "Hmmmmmmm. I never thought about it like that. Huh." I found it a quite interesting evening. Vickie Re: baby pools Since we can't include a guess on the sex of the baby... can we include a guess on the female name? I'm going for May 16th... and Kathryn Miral Paris! D47 Yes, they all were in DS9... Kor (that Orgonian episode, Koloth (Trouble with Tribbles) and Kang (Day of the Dove) were Curzon Dax' buddies. An albino Klingon criminal master mind (I'm sure Mindy our resident comic book writer could be far more descriptive) infected their first born sons with some disease. The boys all died a less than glorious or honorable death. Kor, Koloth, Kang and Curzon all swore a blood oath to kill the albino. TO make a long story shhort, they didn't track down until many years later, when Dax was now part of Jadzia on DS9. The Klingons were still pretty active but not in top form. At the end Koloth, and Kang die aglorious death in battle. Kor would die in Once More in a Breach, a great moving epsiode. Strongly recommended this episode. Anyway, in this episode its clear that Kor is being to lose it mentally (suffering from some sort of mild dementia). What's not clear is if this is normal for all Klingons or is it like Alheimer's which can strike as early as the 30s (very rare) in humans. What's interesting is that none of these Klingons die a natural death. They die in battle, so it is still unclear what would be the natural life span of this species, even the Federation Passport (which I didn't buy but looked through said as much). My thinking with regard to Klingon physiology is this. I think that the Klingon homeworld has to be a pretty harsh environment full of predators etc. Anyway I think that Klingons have to physically reach maturity quickly, like baby gazelles and giraffes they have to hit the ground running to aviod becoming someone's dinner. But I don't think that physical maturity equates with emotion, or sexual maturity. Basically their bodies mature faster than they do mentally, so it takes a while for their minds to catch up. Once they reach maturity, they age more slowly, and remain relatively strong and healthy until they die. I guess the best analogy would be those sea turtles that live for hundreds of years, but are pretty much on their own when they hatch. Ah, thank you, pixie! I've seen all the DS9 episodes, but I don't watch it in syndication and I couldn't for the life of me remember the details you've recounted; just that the TOS Klingons were there, and still in fighting trim. I like your "sea turtle" analogy! That's pretty much what I was thinking Klingons mature very quickly, as an inbuilt genetic defense mechanism. They're a warrior race, from a harsh environment, and they need to reach a certain level of maturity very fast in order to be able to defend and fend for themselves. After that, they can learn civilised behaviour at their leisure. But I'd also got the idea that they were a long lived race, probably from those same DS9 episodes. Probably not as long lived as Vulcans, but I don't think we really know. But it occurred to me that, mishaps aside, B'Elanna might well outlive Tom by some significant margin. And I guess it's even possible that she might give her quarter-Klingon daughter a run for her money. Although I guess that the puny humans are beginning to stretch their lifespan as well by that point. (McCoy was pretty ancient when he wandered about the corridors of the Enterprise 14 years ago.) Perhaps humans of Tom's generation are beginning to live a lot longer than was previously expected of them too. Jules May 9 sounds perfect. Also, if, judging by the stardate of Lineage, and all the adding and subtracting inside to figure out a conception date (54306, between Nightingate and F&B) and adding 7 mos, give or take a few days, I come up with a due date of SD 54889, which (**889) is usually about three eps from the end of the season. (My heavens, I am a Trek Nerd! So May 9 (May 2 would be my second choice for certain) is it. The thing with McCoy and the Klingons... Is that the Klingons were still vital. Bones looked like something the cat dragged in and was very frail. The Klingons still had life to them. I've always assumed that B'Elanna will outlive Tom barring an unnatural death. A 30 week gestation for a humanoid??? That's the only part of this whole thing that disturbs me, to be honest. It just doesn't ring true to me at all... In fact, since Klingon physiology seems to be a bit more intricate than human physiology (extra lung, more strength indicating denser bone and heavier muscling overall), it makes sense to me that Klingon gestation is at least equal or perhaps even a little longer than human. And frankly, why would a cross-species gestation be speeded up? Just silly technobabble science about gestation that were the only sore points for me. They didn't even have to explain why it would be in about 30 weeks, because if B'lanna is about 7 weeks pregnant @ the time of LINEAGE, that would put her just about right on target for "normal" humanoid gestation. After all, not every baby comes "right on time" @ 40 weeks. Hope I'm clear. Mindy I say, the little Parisite will be born May 23, i.e. during the last episode. B'Elanna is 7 weeks along, the due date is in 23 week (30 week - 7), the finale episode will be at the 17th week. This is 6 week premature before the due date. I figure the baby will due before the 30th week, something happens on Voyager, war, explosion, something violent. B'Elanna goes into labor early. I have a feeling that the baby has something to do with the show's ending. Maybe we see her many years later either telling the tales of Voyager or as the Captain, bring the ship home. Just my imagination working overtime, that's all. Di Re: That's pretty much what I was thinking...Y'all have brought up something that's bugged me... ...for a long time on ST... Just how old is old?? Considering that TIME magazine did a cover story about longevity recently (a child born in the year 2000 can expect to live 100 years...and I mean in good health for the most part), I have long wondered just what is the life expectancy of the human species by the 24th century, taking into account the advances of medicine etc. Anybody want to hazard a guess? (For some reason, 120 to 130 years sounds about right to me.) Mindy Sure, it's always been about plot/casting convenience... ...but rationalization is always available. (grin) Judging loosely by their nature, I would think Klingon physiology would adapt to a shorter gestation for the demands their normal lives seem always to have had on their bodies. Pregnancy might well have shortened over the eons to insure a live birth. That doesn't explain their long lifespan--but then again, we are judging them by human standards, which isn't really right when you're talking about a full Klingon. In other words: I have no idea, Mindy. It's not human nature--though I know many women who wouldn't mind if it was. Now why a cross-species birth would be sooner--that's where I'm totally lost. Maybe because of the stress of gestation? (shrug, grin) Medical advancement But even now, doctors can save a baby born at 27 weeks. It's conceivable that the writers have the baby born early, before the show ends, but her life is not threatened. I think we could assume that if a baby can survuve at 27 weeks now, in a few centuries, due to the advancement of medical technology, a baby could survive even earlier. Re: A 40week gestation for a humanoid??? Now Mindy, lets not be chauvinistic here. As for why an interspecies pregnancy would be shorter, I think "lurker" is on the right track. Its not so much that the hybrid "needs" less time to mature, but rather that the hybrid pregnancy is more fragile and less likely to "go" to full term. Kind of like twin or triplet pregnancies are less likely to go to 40 weeks than are singleton pregnancies. D'Alaire is also right. It is easy to rationalize away the "discrepancies", but then again, I think its good to have "discrepancies" when it comes to discussing "alien" physiology. Just to remind us we "are" talking about aliens... not just humans by another (race) name. D47 What was Bones in Farpoint ? Didn't they mention his age? 135? Seems about right to me, too, Mindy--130. Torres is due any day now! You just can't guess when this baby will come. She could even have it my next episode with a very simple explanation from off-stage Janeway: (opening scene: Voyager seen cutting through a vast wasteland of space) Janeway: "We've been out here in this vast wasteland of space for 22 weeks ..." POP! Baby born next week. Mrs. Mac Very true, Mrs. Mac. I'd thought about that as well--and it's more than possible they could (if the pregnancy had been a nine-month one, they could easily have compensated for the time that way, too). Then again, they'll likely save it for May. Someone else NOTICED!!!!! Actually, it seems a lot of someone elses noticed. When I first watched Lineage last Sunday night, I ruminated about the whole thing and then posted it at another msg board I post at. Nobody even blinked. Repeated verbatim, even at the risk of sounding just like everyone else: "Monsieur le Doctor tells B'Elanna and Tom that Klingon pregnancies usually run thirty weeks, but because of the mix, it could be shorter. Shorter? SHORTER? Of course, just like there's about 30 weeks until I graduate, there's about 30 weeks until Voyager goes off the air, terminally. Voila. Houston, we have our finale. But as D'A says, it is about casting and it is about sweeps and it is about ratings . . . and frankly, I think it'd be a beautiful ending to have the baby born right before they get home . . . and Tom calling his father and saying, "I'd like you to meet my wife, B'Elanna . . . and my daughter, [whatever they decide to name her.]" Hankie warning! 216 Re: Medical advancement What you say is very true, lurker, but those are considered premature births, not full getation. The Doctor specifically told B'lanna and Tom that it was a healthy pregnancy (okay, she had a genetic spinal defect, but you know what I mean, I hope It's no big deal, and like D'Alaire (or was it Deb?) said, there is a ratings/reality thing to be considered by TPTB; it just bothered my medical mind, that's all. Mindy My favorite moment in LINEAGE My favorite moment in LINEAGE is the one in which Doc, feeling B'Elanna's baby kick, says, "Feisty little thing, isn't she?" Sigh. Picardo (and Dawson, of course) is superb here. THIS is the Doc i love--compassionate, alive to feelings, encouraging, loving. Sure, i love his neo-MCoy side, too, but still...this is the Doc of Lifesigns and Someone to Watch Over Me... and frankly, i miss him. david g, who has fallen in looove w/Lineage Re: My favorite moment in LINEAGE My favorite moment was Tom's response to B'Elanna's comment re her father 'It's hard enough livin giwth a Klingon now you'll be living with two.' Without missing a beat Tom says "Yes nad someday I hope it's three or four or more." What a perfect answer at the perfect time. Oops sorry were we talking about the Doc? Andrea Not to mention... when Tom called BLT "Mommy" for the first time, and the Janeway hug. (Saccharine, I know, but at least I'm consistent.) D47 Re: My favorite moment in LINEAGE david said Did you notice too that Roxann did something that many actresses wouldn't think of doing? She moved his hand to where she felt the kicking. I think inexperienced actresses or perhaps even non-mother actresses wouldn't think of this but Roxann has had the experience. Mrs. Mac Lineage / Nothing Human Yes, there is a connection! The next to last scene, wherein Janeway and Torres debate Janeway's decision to save her life... Torres says she has no right, and Janeway says she has every right since "I'm your captain and you're my crewman." The LOOK on B'Elanna's face .... puzzled, bemused, surprised as Janeway staunchly defends their relationship, doesn't abandon her and doesn't let her run off to the woods ... I've finally gotten it. It's another prelude to all the psychological action that takes place in Lineage. Sigh. (like david g, I too am in love with this ep). And yes, of course, Barge (I'm thinking of that final hug) - which in some ways is a prequel to Lineage. If Faces and Lineage are bookend episodes, Barge is the accessory between them. Ronit Ronit, about Lineage / Nothing Human Your are right about the abandonment thing. After watching Nothing Human last night, I am starting to piece together the puzzle. WOW, NH is more potent after Lineage, and it was pretty potent when it first aired. Now, we wait for Prophecy. I'm excited. Di Re: The LOOK... Now I'm going to have to rewatch NH... thanks for the heads up, Ronit. Glad I'm not the only one nuts over this ep, not to mention that "hug". Tell me, is this the first time we've seen KJ hug someone else... since Kes in the Gift? Strictly speaking, it was BLT that hugged KJ in BOTD. D47 Diane, old Torres eps are going to be even more interesting now. I'm betting it's one of those cases where the actor got IT long before the writers wrote. I wonder how much input/affect Dawson had on Lineage..? I LOVE this season! Ronit Ronit, I'm thinking B'Elanna Marathon and you're right on about Dawson getting the character before the writers. Can we write Dawson in for the TV Guide award instead of Ryan? Maybe a write-in campaign for the Emmys. Di Oooooooo, Di, what great ideas! Diane wrote: Can we write Dawson in for the TV Guide award instead of Ryan? Maybe a write-in campaign for the Emmys. Go go go! Ronit | ||
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david.
Mrs Mac!
Another way this could have gone
