Flesh And Blood

FLESH AND BLOOD - DISCUSSION THREAD - Jules!
Mr. Mac. -- 30 Nov 2000, 01:23 GMT

Hey! There's another coffee cup in this ep to capture! Mac.

Re: FLESH AND BLOOD: You Know Me Better Than That!
david g -- 30 Nov 2000, 03:44 GMT

Voyager looks like it's about to be defeated. Paris asks Janeway if they're going to give. "You know me better than that!" responds Janeway.

Capt Janeway's great line--her best moment in this episode--bracingly sums up the appeal of VOY for me--the bravado of Janeway and the way that bravado is shared and intensified by the crew.

The first three fifths or so of "Flesh and Blood" are appealingly dense and chewy with moral dilemma and potential strife--Janeway style. but then the Janeway dilemma bottoms out, and we get a retread of psycho-hologramia from Revulsion. It's a pity that the ep loses momentum, because I thought it might be a classic.

Let me state right away that "Flesh and Blood" is a good two-parter, full of movement, action, intrigue, but also a couple of interesting characters. It just falls short of real glory because--perhaps due to Biller's lack of any sustained interest in Janeway?--the 2nd half focuses not on the moral dilemma of Janeway, one countered by Chakotay and Tuvok (a la the great Equinox), but on the comparatively stale issue of hologramia and sentience and messianic, psychotic megalomania...where have we seen all of this stuff before?

The first half of Flesh and Blood is excellent, full of action and even an ensemble feel. Mulgrew's Janeway, while not exactly likable, is at her aggravated, put-upon best, swooping in and sanrling out dictates. Not to everyone's taste, but definitely exciting, to me anyway.

But there's more stuff going on--the Doc and his dilemma, the interactions between Chak and Tuvok and Janeway, B'Ellana and Seven in Engineering...i love it when the whole crew is involved and working together, even if somewhat at odds.

The episode teaser ends on a great visual note, as holograms suddenly, disorientingly, blindingly emerge from a pool and dispatch some Hirogen. The eerie feel of this teaser made me happily expectant of a tense, taut episode, and the first half didnt fail to deliver one.

But te second, Biller half, becomes more wooden and obvious. The interesting messianic leader becomes--erupts into--the usual megalomaniacal villian, totally trashing the eloquence and measured rationalism of Part One. So the episode becomes yet another Doc coming of age story as the Doc realizes that I am not like YOU!

not that there's anything wrong with this, and there's nice consistency here from revulsion, Virtuoso, and the KG...but Janeway's moral dilemma simply has more urgency...it synthesizes issues of the Federation, the history of Voyager in the DQ, with those issues of technology-swapping that so plagued the crew in S1-2...the Doc's grapplings with sentience and conscience and hologram rights just doesnt interest me any more--and neither does seeing an interesting character like the messianic hologram getting turned into a snivelling sadist.

That said, there are some excellent only-Biller touches in Part Two. I love the Cardie woman engineer-in-the-making...i love the spotlight B'Ellana gets...i love Roxanne Dawson and relish every opportunity she has to shine. She and the Cardassian have excellent scenes together--Biller is wonderful at making sure that it is ackowledged that B'Ellana has issues with Cardassians.

The battles we get in the 2nd half are better than in the first...but they're not dramatic enough, gorgeously shot, with stunning views of a planet alongside the ships, though they are.

Flesh and Blood has a terrific Part One and a more ho-hum part Two with great B'Ellana stuff...

this ep misses many chances but it's an honorable achievement and a pretty good episode.

I never thought id say this--but I wish Bryan Fuller had co-written part Two!

david g

Re: FLESH AND BLOOD - Finally, Voyager manages to balance FX and plot
Q -- 30 Nov 2000, 03:51 GMT

I must admit, from the previews I didn't expect much from this eps other than a two hour CGI extravaganza. Thankfully I was pleasantly disappointed. What does everyone else think?

Not bad it even approaches good in places...
Eric -- 30 Nov 2000, 03:57 GMT

Like David said, part one was the better half. What IS it with Voyager and crappy endings?

Anyway we get off to a great start and the build up to what would have been a great cliffhanger is well done. So much so that while i winced at hoe Tuvok's security is easily overwhelmed AGAIN it didn't bother me as much as it would have in a bad episode.

The Bajoran Hologram is initially a good baddie, one you can understand why he does what he does. Why couldn't they keep him like this?

But then part 2 starts and that's where things turn sour.

Oh it starts off ok with a injured B'Elanna who befriends the Cardiegram. But then the Bajoran leader starts frothing at the mouth.

I HATE it when Voyager does that. It pisses me off to no end. They did the same thing with Captain Ransom in Equinox. I didn't buy it then and i don't buy it now.

It is a cheap-a$$ lazy way to end the story and it reeked. He almost seemed like a different character.

In the plus column the FX were the best i have seen in a long while. The Voyager ambush was as sweet as they come. To bad it was a simple AOTW that came up with the plan that for once made sense and wasn't a Nightengale like magic wand.

Well that's all i have for now, i want to see what others thought. This was the best one this season.

It's just to bad this is the worst season ever.

Eric

Except that in Equinox...
david g -- 30 Nov 2000, 05:03 GMT

Ransom's twists and turns of character are very compelling and believable--to my mind, at least.

i thought the pretty good, but not ultimately great, flesh and Blood missed a chance in turning the messianic leader into a one-note villain.

i agree with you Eric--i hate when's that's done, too.

But is this the worst season ever? hmmm...i think it's just the blandest.

Much as I respect and admire Biller's sensitivity--his work w/B'Ellana and Cardie-woman is lovely--his work just...lacks...OOMPH.

david g

Re: Not bad it even approaches good in places...
Q -- 30 Nov 2000, 05:20 GMT

The Bajoran Hologram is initially a good baddie, one you can understand why he does what he does. Why couldn't they keep him like this?

But then part 2 starts and that's where things turn sour. Oh it starts off ok with a injured B'Elanna who befriends the Cardiegram. But then the Bajoran leader starts frothing at the mouth.

I HATE it when Voyager does that. It pisses me off to no end. They didthe same thing with Captain Ransom in Equinox. I didn't buy it then and i don't buy it now.

The Bajoragram/hololeader's eventual meltdown didn't leave that bad of a taste in my mouth since I've come to expect that sort of cop-out from Voyager's writers. Heck, you could thrown in the head borg punk from "Collective" as well

It is a cheap-a$$ lazy way to end the story and it reeked. He almost seemed like a different character.

Between this guy and the one from "Repression" the writers are providing another Trek "stereotype"-- that all Bajorans are radical religous extremist.

I guess Biller finally got to my wishlist....
Pixie -- 30 Nov 2000, 08:01 GMT

Someone remembered that B'Elanna is the engineer.

B'Elanna finally got to be a great engineer and the writers didn't relegate her to being Tom's wife/girlfriend or some hot-tempered Klingon stereotype. This is the B'Elanna I remember from the earlier seasons; in fact I thought of Prototype while watching this episode. I really liked B'Elanna's scenes with the Doc and Kejal. The conversation between B'Elanna and Kejal about stereotypes and about how hard it is to change. You know if Seven had been adducted, Kejal would have fawned all over Seven for Seven's humanity (Shuddering at the memory of Gerin in Dragon's Teeth). I really loved the whole "warriors [and former Borg] may get the glory but engineers build societies" thread.

Ok onto the other things...

The teaser was great. This is the first time a teaser actually fully caught me attention, ususally I'm doing a couple of things while I watch.

The pacing was pretty good.

I liked that Idan was sympathetic (until he flipped out more on that later). I didn't like his turn to meglomania. By making Idan a psycho, the writers were able to avoiding dealing with the difficult issues, such as how should the holograms be viewed as a sentient species entitled to live their lives, and what exactly is Janeway's obligation to the holograms.

I liked that the Doc made the argument that these holograms are essentially a new race that whether Janeway likes to admit it or not she essentially birthed. I think that Janeway dismissed this argument too easily. Yes, they were accidentally created but they are like those little robot things that Picard recognized as sentient. Janeway has an obligation to them, and I don't think Janeway's "I didn't know the Hirogen would create prey" as credible that was the whole reason she gave them the holotechnology.

I thought it was absolutely hysterical that Janeway sends Tom to tend to the wounded Hirogen while they are being fired on by the holograms. Basically, the ship in the middle of a fire fight is WITHOUT A PILOT!!!

What else... hmmm.

I didn't like Seven running engineering.

Also when did VOY ever trade replicator tech with anyone. Seska must be rolling in her grave.

There was something else but I can't remember now.

Random nitpicks and comments
bones -- 30 Nov 2000, 09:26 GMT

I'd say that this was a well paced, engaging two hours, but way too many commercials. If Voyager was able to air as long as say...TOS episodes had, then maybe they could have developed a better ending. But alas, practically speaking, they only had a certain amount of time once the story was established. I'm not saying that it couldn't have been better, but sometimes tv's just tv. And nowadays it's 42 mins.

Love the fact that B'Elanna was doing her thing throughout the episode. Well deserved attention. The set-up and dilemma were believeable. Janeway feeling partially responsible was plausible.

Nitpick #1 - Seven tells B'Elanna to get down??? That was quite specific,.....perhaps because she was clarvoyant and could predict where the discharge was coming and going.

However, I was extremely pleased to see that Seven and B'Elanna have been apparently getting along better. They have more spark than B'Elanna with Tom. Okay, P/Ters, don't throw tomatoes yet.

Why does the Doctor get so easily swayed? Kinship perhaps. But why do people who have been in the Delta Quadrant for so long, find it so easy to trust other people's word. With very little evidence. Maybe I'm more of a cynic. Even B'Elanna was easily swayed. I would think she would be more suspicious. Of course, she might have trusted the Doctor's opinion. But he was spouting the same crap Idan was. This is what I call the Patty Hearst syndrome. But again, they only had one hour left. Idan was a more sympathetic character in the beginning. I think people would have been able to swallow the ending better if only Biller would have dropped hints about Idan's fanaticism throughout the beginning, not a whole lot, but some subtle ones. They really didn't do much a job of it except for some possible hints with his back story of liberation.

Another nitpick was that the Doctor was easily downloaded from his emitter. Somehow, you'd think the Doctor would have established security measures after Equinox.

How does the Doctor shoot Idan without hurting his emitter? I guess Hirogen weapons don't hurt holograms, but hologram weapons can hurt a fellow hologram. Eh?

Ending. I heard Kate Mulgrew disagreed with the end scene with Picardo. I can see why. The Doctor spends all this time trying to be autonomous, trying to be seen as an individual. She is trying to admit that he has become one. Yet she cannot blame him for acting the way he did. He knows Star Fleet protocol. He should follow orders like all individuals on Voyager. And he knows what he did was wrong. What Janeway said, showed that she thinks of him as possibly someone who has grown beyond his original program. She has elevated him, yet she shows him deference as a result. By doing so negates the fact that he is an individual and responsible for his actions. He should be treated like every other individual on the crew who disobeys orders, and practically commited treason, or at least betrayal. He could have allowed the crew to be killed. Therefore, he should hve been put in the Brig like anyone else for a time, and freed only if a medical emergency needed him. Tom did when he sympathized with an alien species in 30 Days.

The Doctor is spoiled. He takes it upon himself to determine rights and wrongs when the rest of the crew obey commands. He takes more liberties than the average senior officer with no consequences, often under the guise that he's naive, new to individuality, but that is not the case if he has been programmed with the basic SF knowledge the rest of the crew lives by. When Chakotay wanted to help those ex-drones in Unity, Janeway turned him down. Ultimately, he agreed with Janeway, because not matter how much he sympathized with their situation, but realized that they could not forsee and risk the consequences. Very similar situation to this episode.

So now we have no punishment, nothing on his performance record, no lecture. The consquences of real life never seem to touch the Doctor and that is an error if he is to be treated as a sentient individual.

I like the allusions to B'Elanna's past, but she didn't switch sides. The Maquis were fighting the Cardassians more than the Federation. But B'Elanna wasn't Star Fleet, since she dropped out of the academy. It would have been nice if TPTB explored the Voyager characters' backstories. Chakotay, B'Elanna, Janeway. It would have been cool to see what made B'Elanna join the Maquis. What happened when they were in the Maquis. They did it in TNG, DS9. We really don't know enough about our favorite characters do we? But it's too late now, being the last season.

Don't get me wrong. I made a lot of negative comments, but I truly enjoyed the two hours. The ending wasn't as abrupt as Repression that's for sure. It was adequate. The rest of the episode was still quite good and well worth another look at continuity and a visit with the Hirogen.

Bones

I was seriously considering knitting...
D'Alaire -- 30 Nov 2000, 11:41 GMT

...while the tape took down the ep, except that I knew B'Elanna would have a good part in the plot this week. But admittedly, I'm not too high on holographic stories or Doc's ego biting him in the butt anymore; we've already had a Bajoran radical this season, the Hirogen are not my favorite baddies, and frankly, sitting down for two hours just made me want to walk the dog.

However, after I decided on afghan needles and wooly yarn (so I didn't have to look at what I was doing) and got a big mug of espresso, I quickly found out I was liking this ep. The action was good, the FX worth the money, the ensemble work was wonderful and much appreciated, Lil' Hirogen was a nice element (I do like how he and the Cardassian Hologram ended up), and--woo hoo!--B'Elanna rulz!

I don't think I have to say how good it was to see her in all her great elements in a plot not about her, and for a good amount of time. I loved her conversations with the Cardiegram (thanks, Eric, I liked that ), and just her general presence. It was a very good idea to add her to the mix, there. (Though, I'm quite certain B'Elanna should be very through with wacko-holograms--poor thing's gotten mixed up with a few too many.)

Picardo did a fabulous job, of course, too, going from unlead to leading to knowing he was mislead. I only wish he'd gotten more for his troubles.

My nits may well be similar to others here already, so let's just say I'd have liked a more complex resolution to the holograms' fates, and yes, despite the fact that I thought it was convenient (at the time) that Janeway wouldn't even consider the holograms' plight, the Doc is definitely spoiled rotten.

I completely understand KM's comments about Janeway letting Doc off too easily. I'd have nailed his holo-head to the wall, too. That mobile emmitter would have been mine for quite a duration. KM got Janeway's disappointment and a delicious comination of coolness and warmth across perfectly (maybe wanting to convey Janeway's guilt leading her into her decision rather than she would have in any other situation?), but I didn't agree with that, either. Not when Tom got the brig for less...but she was just in a plain bad mood back then. Grr.

But I did like the episode all the way through. Despite the above and a few other nits, it was a great two hours I didn't mind sitting through one bit. I must say I totally disagree with anyone who says this is the worst season yet. I'm enjoying it a lot in spite of any nitting I might do. Maybe I just like Biller's style, maybe I like seeing the ensemble--and B'Elanna--at work a lot, and more than the AOTW. Whatever. I'm mostly happy.

Anyway (have to cut this short, as the "event" had me up late enough that I slept in an hour this morning), during the ultra-long commercials, I managed to knit 18" of a new throw for my sofa. I swear UPN pushed these eps together not only to tout its huge Playstation account, but so it could play all of them over and over for utterly endless commercial breaks.

Needless to say, I'm anxious to be able to watch the ep again on tape without all that nonsense.

Now I know for sure (as if I were in any doubt already)
Nina -- 30 Nov 2000, 13:10 GMT

who UPN thinks is their "Voyager" audience. Not that I mind earthy humor, but I can't remember when I viewed the same two toilet-joke commercials over and over for two hours during a program I'd chosen to watch (instead of being subjected to it by a companion)...maybe if they'd been FUNNY toilet jokes, which they were not?

With that nit properly picked - some great Janeway lines, and a fine KM performance. I loved Chak and Tuvok "ganging up" on her! That should happen more often. I loved seeing a scared Hirogen (that guest actor turned in quite a performance, too). I liked it that the turning point in Part 2's plot came when the holograms "rescued" at such terrible cost turned out to be what they were - and I loved the Cardie engineer-in-training. Roxann Dawson got to play B'Elanna in this one, not Mrs. Paris!!!! And I liked seeing B'Elanna and Tom reunite with that quick embrace, too.

However - KM was right on in her objections to the ending. The Doctor rendered her ship vulnerable to an enemy, deliberately, and she didn't - keelhaul him??? I think KM was forced to fall back on the Season 5, guilt-ridden Janeway in her performance, and it worked as well as any strategy could have for her...but still, it didn't cut it for me. She could have acknowledged that the Doc has indeed "become as fallible as the rest of us" without letting him off like that (something I find it hard to believe even Season 5 Janeway would have done).

More later, maybe. Gotta work now.

Sheesh. You mean she didn't even ground him?
Jules -- 30 Nov 2000, 13:17 GMT

From the little I know about the Doctor's sins in this story, it sounds like at the very least he deserves to have his holoemitter privileges rescinded for 30 days or more.

I demand that the Doctor's rights as an individual be upheld! Slap him down when he gets it wrong, just like any other crewmember!

Sigh. I guess that TPTB aren't checking off everything on our wishlist this season then. (Or at least the plausible ones; I've never held my breath waiting for J/P ) Parity for punishments was definitely on my list, and I'm pretty certain it was on several other people's too.

Jules

Nope. (Spoiler City)
Nina -- 30 Nov 2000, 13:45 GMT

She made a nice little speech about how it was all her fault because she set the whole thing in motion with her decisions (letting Doc become a functioning individual, giving the Hirogens the holo-technology, etc.), and then she walked out of sickbay and left His Nibs unscathed. He should have been emitter-less and smarting, IMO.

(NIM)
D'Alaire -- 30 Nov 2000, 14:16 GMT

Two thumbs and two of Baktag's claws up in agreement!

De-nib that doc! Oh Kate, ol' Mikey'd gotten to you yet!

He should have some kind of punishment.
Roxanne -- 30 Nov 2000, 14:29 GMT

What he did was far more serious than what Tom did in "Thirty Days," and yet Tom gets demoted, but the Doc gets nothing. I think that it would almost have been considered treason. He defected to the enemy so to speak.

Okay, so Janeway caused this to happen in the first place. IIRC she didn't have much choice at the time. It was either keep fighting until everything was destroyed or see if she could make some kind of deal. It is good to see an episode dealing with repercussions of decisions. Anyway, that doesn't justify making a bad decision worse.

If the Doc were human, wouldn't someone consider him mentally unstable? First he wants to have the same priviledges as the flesh and blood members of the crew. Then he wants to be better than the crew. Then he's not satisfied with that so he wants to go back to being a hologram. Over and over this record gets played.

Actually I think this should have been a 3 parter. Then they could have dealt with the moral issues instead of making another holonut.

Roxanne

Didn't like the ending, but overall I was pleasantly surprised
AC -- 30 Nov 2000, 14:46 GMT

but that might be because my expectations for Voyager these days are so low.

First impressions -- the makeup artists did fine on the Hirogen when they weren't wearing their helmets, but in the first scenes with the hunters, something just looked off, as though the facial features weren't properly defined. Anyone else see this?

KM turned in a good performance, even in the final scene. I'd have been grating my teeth down to stubs if I'd had to film such a scene. She was determined and forceful during this episode, and I enjoyed watching Janeway. And I'm not even a big fan of hers.

I did snicker at the Janeway/Tuvok/Chakotay scene. Another case of the Captain who doesn't listen to her officers. "Thank you, gentlemen. I've listened to what you said, now I'm going to ignore your advice."

Torres simply ruled in this episode. In light of her time with the Maquis, I'm not surprised at her sympathy for the holograms, yet when she realized the extent to which they'd go against organics, she immediately started sowing the seeds of rebellion. I loved it when she whispered, "You could take Iden off-line" to the Cardassian woman. And her comment about engineers being the builders of society was great. I wonder if this is *gasp* actual character growth for her, since she was much more of a warrior when she first ended up on Voyager.

Tom's comment, "I'd like to get my wife back in one piece," was nice, reminder of continuity but not too mushy. Then again, I stepped out a few times during the ep, so I might have missed some mushy stuff. *grin*

Janeway should have confined Doc to sickbay for at least a month. Shame on the writers for getting him off the hook like that. I can comfort myself that he'll be beating up on himself for a while, and Tom will definitely be giving him the hairy eyeball during his duty shifts in Sickbay. "Hey, Doc, nice going getting my wife kidnapped like that." Hmm. The thought of that almost makes me want to write a fic...

Next week, Seven goes wrestlemania. As I recall, I actually enjoyed Tsunkatse. And for those who recall the fracas last year, repeat after me : AC does not advocate violence against women. She enjoys seeing Seven get knocked onto her arrogant ass. There is a difference.

AC, getting out the asbestos gear just in case...

Enough! Time to turn off these "smart" lightbulbs
Shawnster -- 30 Nov 2000, 14:50 GMT

I had a feeling going into this episode that I would be disappointed. You know, the show lived up (or down) to my expectations.

When Voyager was first launched, the Doctor was a unique, novel idea. A "sentient" hologram as a member of the crew. Oh, sure we'd seen Moriarty on TNG and a whole holographic village on DS-9, but this was the first time a major character would be a hologram.

Unique. Different.

The way they explained his growing sentience was that it was an accident. Something unplanned. By continuous (or would that be continual) running for such a long time, the Doctor grew out of his original programming. He became more than the sum of his computer parts.

They even had an episode where this threatened the very existance of the Doctor.

But that was then. Now we see sentient holograms everywhere. A whole revolution conducted by holograms that can think, adapt, grow.

Holograms that can feel anger, seek vengence, seek glory and worship. Holograms that can feel hurt and sorrow and pain.

You know, at this point I will grand you that the Doctor's program can't be backed up. It would be like backing up my copy of "The Sims." That game, with all its components, has gotten so huge on my PC that it would take a couple of Zip disks to back it all up.

So, granted, the Doctor's program is now too big to back up. I'll stretch credibility to that.

But, by that same token, he shouldn't be able to transfer around so much. Large files like that are hard to move, sometimes impossible.

Yet they do it. All the time.

Now they create other holograms just like him. Tons of holograms on a ship, running off the same computer. Taking up nearly ludicrous amounts of storage space EACH!

It's just too big a pill to swallow.

Yes, it's science fiction. Yes, it's not real.

But it's SCIENCE fiction. Not FANTASY. There are certain rules to follow.

I have known Voyager's abandoned their rules for holograms for a while now, this episode just reemphasized it.

Moving beyond the sentient holograms...

OK, the Hirogen have these advanced training facilities, giant holodecks. How they are able to give off signals that make the environments seem real is beyond me.

These training facilities have such poor computer security, let alone physical security, that a bunch of holograms can take over and escape. Right. OK. Must have had holoemitters all over the station. Or the Hirogen were all stupid enough to keep going in there.

Must have been the case. After all, the recruited the engineer to hunt the holograms.

No society, no civilization can be completely comprised of hunters. They had to have engineers and computer programmers before Janeway gave them holotechnology. But that's not the way this episode presented it.

Sheesh, come on. Someone has to make the ship go. Someone has to cook the food, clean the decks, repair the weapons, program the computers, etc...

Anyone ever hear of an off switch? Anyone ever hear of computer security that prevents or inhibits program transfers?

I'm sick and tired of seeing 24th century technology being vastly INFERIOR to 20th century technology. Stupid.

Moving on to Voyager...

Speaking of stupidity, how can anyone accept that someone in the MESS HALL can lock out Harry on the BRIDGE??? What kind of ship is this that has better controls in the MESS HALL????

Oh, lets leave a bunch of hostile aliens in the mess hall so they can take over the ship, or at least hold hostages.

Stupid, stupid, stupid. Talk about lack of security and safety protocols. Next thing you know, someone will tell me that the USS Cole gunners were ordered not to fire on the terrorist boat.

Oh, wait a minute... never mind...

OK, on with the story....

The story itself wasn't that bad. It was a good story. Definitely not excellent.

They obviously wrote it in two parts again, instead of treating it as a unified whole. Oh, sorry, we have to always write in episodic style.

What could have been a great temptation to the doctor is transformed in the second episode. I know, let's make the hololeader a megalomanic with dilusion of godhood. Can't think of any other way to convince the doctor not to go.

Kinda ruins the whole point of the temptation, doesn't it?

No, we can never have villians like this who are good deep down. They all have to be truely evil, like Ransom. Can't have someone with a different point of view.

I wasn't expecting much going in, and that's what I got.

Shawnster.

I saw only the first half. . .
MEG -- 30 Nov 2000, 14:55 GMT

. . .and was left with two impressions.

1. "Star Trek" meets "Deliverance" was not a concept in Season 4, and it's not a concept now. Hirogen: "We HUNT." MEG: "WHATever. . ." Sigh. Why did it have to be the Hirogen and holograms? Why couldn't they revisit the Voth, or the Krenim, or the Vidiians? At least all of those were interesting, complex races and cultures.

2. I can only stand so much Picardo ham-on-wry. And my tolerance level is diminishing all the time.

All in all, I was very happy to bail at the end of the first hour for The West Wing and a really lovely tribute to the space program and the quest for exploration.

MEG

I wish they wouldn't write these in "parts"
Shawnster -- 30 Nov 2000, 15:02 GMT

I was shocked when I read in TNGs Compendium how they write these two-parters in two-part style, sometimes writing the second part first.

Shocked. Appaled.

I guess I'm the only one that views two-parters as one episode. A cohesive whole.

How often do we see the episode crumbe in the second half? Almost as if we're watching two episodes instead of part 2 of the same episode.

I'm firmly convinced the writing staff of Star Trek are of the mindset of "we've always done it this way, we can't change now."

Why not try, just once, to write a single story. Have the same person write the whole story.

Imagine how much better it would be. How it wouldn't crumble in the second half.

Yes, in syndication it will be broken up. But so what? You can still write a single story.

Guess that idea is beyond TPTB.

Shawnster

Has Janeway EVER punished the Doc?
Q -- 30 Nov 2000, 15:33 GMT

Janeway's Double Standard when it comes to Doc as opposed to the rest of the crew is startling. Simply put, she's too dang easy on him. She let him get away with insulting the crew in "Virtuoso"; Doc ended up attacking several people in "Darkling" after meddling with his program, and no repercussions from Janeway--yet she felt the need to reprimand Tuvok for using mind melds in "Meld" and "Repression".

I don't want to say Janeway's bias, but if any other crew member (with the possible exception of Seven) had pulled the stunt Doc did this week they'd be calling the brig their new quarters from here on out.

Definitely both parts should have the same writer(s). NIM
Nina -- 30 Nov 2000, 15:40 GMT

Nice and meaty - this episode worked!
Ronit -- 30 Nov 2000, 16:49 GMT

Convoluted moral dilemmas and awesome FX. What more could I ask for?

Like everyone else said, turning Idan into a messiah-wannabe was a fatal disservice to the story, and The Doc ought to have a long, detailed permanent note in his record, complete with an appendix and footnotes. Either one of those offenses are cause for impounding the writers' Jacuzzis. I've never been so impressed with Mulgrew's talents: she somehow made that scene believeable and delivered a powerful Janeway. Talk about spinning gold out of straw.

And yet, despite those critical plot flaws, this episode worked for me. Not sure why - ensemble feel, the full spectrum characterization and interaction of the regulars...whatever it was - the crew was ON.

The good stuff comes in several flavors.

Continuity:

- obviously.

- thematic continuity: parallels to Tuvok & Seven's initial first encounter with the Hirogen in "Prey" ; Doc & Torres versus Crazy Isomorph in "Revulsion", complete with injuries; Chakotay, former Maquis, getting the Doc's freedom fighter motivation before Janeway did.

Characters:

- my goodness, it's .... Chakotay!

- Captain Snark: "non-verbal communication" . Oh, what a great, great line!

- Janeway, Janeway, Janeway : twisting and turning, tapdancing her way through peril as alliances constantly shift -- the quicksilver improvising lone Captain we saw in "Dragon's Teeth". And also snarky, sarcastic, dry witted ; conflicted but no less determined and commanding. This is what I would have liked to see in "Night".

- great guest stars. Idan was charismatic, and the actor managed to pull off what became a thankless role. The rest were a nice mix of characters - a pleasant change of pace. Whoever dreamt up the Hirogen geek may keep their jacuzzi.

Technobabble: close to zero.

35,000 light years to the nearest spacedock:

- the imperfect ship: hey, it *can't* be fixed instantly - so they substitute the Delta Flyer.

- assistant medics: an idea whose time has come.

Note that most of this has been discussed on this board before. Coincidence? I think not. Somewhere there's a savvy and wise PTB lurking....

There's more where this came from.

Ronit

Ewwww, i hate defending Voyager!
Eric -- 30 Nov 2000, 16:58 GMT

But Shawn, how much of your gripes, and trust me i hear where you are coming from man, are new?

Voyager's idea of a Hologram sucks. I hate how we are supposed to think these things are just light when they are solid. Andromeda has a MUCH better idea what Holograms are and are not.

Tuvok's security sucks. I knew what was going to happen, i'm sure you knew. We know this from 7 years of Voyager being easily taken over.

The Hirogen are one note AOTW. Well...yes. But aren't all the DQ races, besides for a chosen few?

However, even with al these problems i was able to see the good in the story. Really, the only place the story fell down was in the last half were the writers had a panic attack : OH MY GOD HOW ARE WE GOING TO FINISH THIS???? and made the Hololeader go insane.

But we know that as well, don't we? Hey, you just can't hold Voyager up to Farscape and Andromeda standards or you will turn bitter before your time.

My gripes with this season are it's not up to VOYAGER standards, and that is very, very scary.

Eric

Actually, it was much better than I expected it to be!
Mindy -- 30 Nov 2000, 18:20 GMT

Perhaps because I had read the dis that TV Guide.com had given in, I really expected something awful....but y'know what?

I liked it. Okay, so maybe I knew right away that the "captain" of the holograms was going to go bonkers or reveal some "evil" personality twist...But it really wasn't too over the top, and no worse than some of the shenanigans that Louise Fletcher pulled as Kai Wynn...hey, maybe his program was based on Kai Wynn?! Or the Bajoran politico played by Frank Langella early on?!

Overall, I thought it was solidly plotted (for a change) with little or no wasted air...and again, with a great ensemble feel. (Okay, Beltran's walking through this season for the most part, but he did wake up a little bit at times last night.)

Roxanne Dawson was absolutely wonderful! I loved the way she used her whole body when she was talking to the Cardassian hologram; she seemed so natural, and also, it was using "body language" to intimate advantage, know what I mean? All her movements, getting down to eye level, etc., were to indicate to Cardassi-gram that she could be trusted. And her face is so expressive! Pixie, you must be very happy!!!

Again, Picardo did a great job; okay, maybe I'm prejudiced, because I do love the guy, but I think, especially at the end, there were some very nice nuances...

Speaking of the end, I loved the epilogue between the Doctor and Janeway...I thought Mulgrew did a terrific job of showing her guilt and self-blame, much more so than in NIGHT; I liked the way she wasn't crying about her error, but was angry at herself...they played off against each very nicely; both wrong, both forgiving, both learning, both moving on...the thing is, I don't think this episode was so much about the Doctor exploring his sentinence or anything like that; I really think it was about Janeway finally facing HER prejudices.

One quibble: when B'lanna arrived back on the Delta Flyler, why not a kiss? Why just a hug? (I told you it was a quibble.)

Oh, yeah, I also liked seeing the Doctor blow Ivan the Terrible away. Appeals to the dark side of my nature, I guess.

Mindy

To be fair to the writers...
Jules -- 30 Nov 2000, 18:20 GMT

I did in fact read an interview with one of them several months back that stated that they actually plotted part two of "Unimatrix Zero" while they were writing part one, even though they didn't actually write it until they came back from their break.

Unfortunately, I guess that's the one exception to the rule. And while I can see the scheduling difficulties in allocating people to do it, I agree with you that it'd be nice to at least have continuity of writing team between the two parts, so that the folks writing both parts might remember in the second half what plot threads they'd set up in the first half.

And, if it's not too greedy of me, I'd also like to keep the same director for both halves. Yeah, scheduling difficulties again, but wouldn't it be nice if the story "felt" the same throughout? Too many two-parters have fallen flat as much because the two directors had different notions of pacing as because of the scripts.

Jules

How do you punish a toaster?
Shawnster -- 30 Nov 2000, 21:02 GMT

When the Doctor has erred in the passed, generally it's been due to a computer malfucntion. That's something completely out of his control.

To punish him for any of these would be like punishing your child because he threw up on the newly cleaned couch or rug or whatever.

Even in "Flesh and Blood," Janeway first looked for, and wanted to find a programming error or some software glitch that would explain his behavior.

Has Janeway ever fully accepted and embraced his sentience? This was the subject of an episode a few seasons ago. Janeway was dead set on treating the Doctor as she would any other piece of equipment on Voyager.

These points could have been explored more fully, especially if they would have left the HoloBajoran alone and treated him like a "genuine" messiah or Moses, instead of a megalomanic.

Shawnster

What should happen to the Doctor...
Shawnster -- 30 Nov 2000, 21:09 GMT

OK, it looks like everyone is in agreement that the Doctor should have been punished for his actions. He endangered the lives of the crew and the safety of the ship. His actions could have been viewed as munitious.

Revoking his holoemitter and his holodeck privlidges would have been a good start. Confine the Doctor to sick bay and deactivate him when not in use.

On the other hand, would deactivating bee too strong? Would that be treating the Doctor as another component?

The questions raised by the HoloBajoran are still in the air: Is the Doctor a valued and respected member of the crew, or is he a component like a tricorder or the computer?

These questions should not go away. They need to be answered.

If Janeway has completed her circle of thought about the Doctor and concluded that he is sentient and capable of his own, independent thoughts and feelings, then she should treat him that way.

Meaning the Doctor should get his own quarters.

The Doctor should have the ability to turn himself on and off (how many times would that have come in handy?)

The Doctor should be given a rank and commission.

I say punish him, remove his emitter, but after the punishment is over, give him the same rights given the rest of the crew.

And, while we're on the subject of quarters, move Seven and Icheb out of the cargo hold. It's time they have their own quarters as well.

Shawnster

Now I remember on Crime & Punishment
Pixie -- 30 Nov 2000, 21:13 GMT

I'm sure somewhere in the world Shadda is fuming over Janeway's double standards. The Doc merited serious punsihment for what he did. If B'Elanna hadn't fortified the wrap core, they'd all be dead. I hope at least Janeway has now limited the Doc's access to sensitive data.

I'm not sure how I feel about Janeway's justification. It almost sounded like she was saying it's not you're fault you can't help what you programed to be. That was odd especially since Kejal and even Dorrin (Hirogen engineer) were proving that wrong -- you can change even though its hard.

So, can the Doctor be programmed to feel pain or taste food?
Shawnster -- 30 Nov 2000, 21:13 GMT

We saw in "Flesh and Blood" that holograms can be programmed to feel pain (puh-lease).

Can they be programmed to feel pleasure?

What about taste? Touch? Smell?

Recently the Doctor speculated modifying his program so he could simulate eating. Since his holoemitter makes him solid, he could store the food in his body for later disposal.

While we're modifying his program, lets put in pain subroutines, pleasure subroutines, etc...

In other words, he could be just like an organic.

And he'd never have to borrow Seven's body again

Shawnster

What if?
Quince -- 30 Nov 2000, 21:24 GMT

Suppose Idan had turned out to be the noble warrior-liberator he claimed to be? I kept hoping they wouldn't go the obvious smooth-talkin', good-lookin' maniac route, and open up a bigger moral can of worms instead.

Ah, well. A good ep although it was beginning to seem like the UPN obnoxious commercials movie broken up by an occasional 3 minutes of Voyager.

Didn't someone ask Seven about that?
Eric -- 30 Nov 2000, 21:50 GMT

About living in the Cargobay i mean.

Didn't she say something about it being more efficient for her to live there? I may be wrong about that but i seem to remember it from somewhere.

Of course, now with just her and Icheb living there maybe she would change her mind.

Eric

Then the Doc WOULD have been one of their kind...
Shawnster -- 30 Nov 2000, 21:50 GMT

And the real moral delimma and inner struggle would have begun.

Does the Doctor have more loyalty to his kind of people, or to his ship and crew?

Instead, the writers took that delimma out of the Doctors hands.

It's quite simple to oppose the maniac.

Shawnster

Efficient? Yeah, right...
Shawnster -- 30 Nov 2000, 21:57 GMT

Would Janeway let any other cremember sleep in the cargo bay or any other place other than their quarters?

How about B'Elanna get a cot in Engineering, or Neelix a cot in the Mess Hall?

Talk about feeding a nerosis.

And it would only be more efficient for Seven if most of her day was spent in or near the Cargo Bay.

Wouldn't it make more sense, and be more efficient, if she slept in her own quarters, nearer to the Bridge? nearer to Engineering perhaps?

Shawnster

Then it could have been an A+
Ronit -- 30 Nov 2000, 22:05 GMT

rather than a B+ / A-.

Making Idan into a megalomaniac was such a cop-out. It simplified not only the Doc's dilemma but Janeway's as well - not to mention the viewers'.

Ronit

My thoughts on that:
Nina -- 30 Nov 2000, 22:14 GMT

Seven's regeneration equipment could be moved from the cargo bay to regular quarters, but she seems to have quite a lot of Borg equipment left from when she and the others (now long dead) set up shop there. I suspect that's why she views the bay as an "efficient" place to live.

Why's Icheb still there, now that he is minus his cortical node and presumably no longer regenerates? Ya got me. Maybe the writers just haven't worked the change into a plot yet, since I think he's past the stage where he needs "mama" to watch him at night....

Henry Starling did that to him already
Nina -- 30 Nov 2000, 22:18 GMT

in "Future's End," when he reprogrammed the Doctor in order to torture him. Nice fellow, that Starling. I suppose the "enhancements" didn't come along when the Doctor got downloaded into his mobile emitter - and I don't recall that he could feel anything PLEASANT, you realize, just pain! - but technically, sure it can be done because it has been done.

Re: The question of hologram sentience...
Begonia -- 30 Nov 2000, 22:29 GMT

I'm going to have another rant about how the powers that be develop an idea without actually having the wits to see what the eventual ramifications of it will be.

Hologram sentience is another of those horrible points which the powers obviously cannot hope to address within the established context of the program. They can't even try to address it because nothing they can do, given the conditions that they themselves have unwittingly set up, would ever be satisfactory.

Consider this. Are holograms sentient (bear with me, I'll get to the complications later)? Yes or no. If not, then the programme has wasted half of the last three seasons on a non-sentient character development. Who in their right minds is going to admit to this?

If they ARE sentient, the the Federation are analogous to slave-owning plantation managers who refuse to see the 'truth' because it is more economically and socially beneficial to them to maintain the status quo. So they employ philosophical and technological arguments (almost exactly the same in nature as the religious and pseudo-biological ones that slave owners used a couple of hundred years ago to justify slavery) to give them the sense that they are morally justified in leaving a whole section of their sentient population in servitude. Now are the programme-makers really going to admit to this when it shows their precious Federation in such an appalling light? Come on, this is light, fluffy popular entertainment. While Star Trek has been willing to showcase the inadequacies of OTHER species (eg 'let that be your last battlefield) they would never admit that their precious Federation utopia was so fundamentally flawed.

Okay then. What about Holograms being potentially sentient? That deals with the problem of the doctor - leave them on long enough in the right circumstances and they become sentient. No problems there. Bzzzz! Strike Three!! NOW they have a situation which is analogous to the debate over the rights of the unborn child, potential humans. Since this causes more angst and conflict than almost any other issue in current day America, are they REALLY likely to address it? But think about it. The moment you turn on a hologram, you create a potentially sentient being. When does a potentially sentient being become an actually sentient being? Does the potential itself confer rights? The ultimate and logical conclusion to this is inevitable; once you turn ON a hologram, you must be prohibited by law from turning it off again because by implication, you will be destroying a being which has the potential to become sentient.

The result? Well, it doesn't really need spelling out, does it? Who under those circumstances is going to EVER build another holodeck for any reason? More and more sophisticated holotechnology will inevitably lead to its own demise. There is a darn good reason why there is only one Lt Cmdr Data! (I'm not discounting Lore, just saying, there aren't hundreds of them for very good reason... organic beings wouldn't tolerate it.)

And even IF the issue was addressed, and it was decided that holograms were not normally sentient and could not normally become sentient except under exceptional circumstances, there would still always be doubt that the decision had arisen out of a desire to protect vested interest, not to serve natural justice.

This has the potential to be the most explosive issue EVER addressed by any science fiction series ever, and for that very reason, it won't be.

Because what it would do is to show that human beings had learned precisely nothing in the 700 years since the abolition of slavery, that when it suits their collective interests, they can be just as close-minded and parochial as those slave owners of old.

Now TNG did try to address this on a number of occasions, the episode that springs to mind is the one with the three exocomps. But that's a very different situation from suddenly turning round and declaring citizens rights for every hologram presently in use anywhere in the Federation!

I had these feelings of unease when I first heard that Voyager was going to feature a hologram as one of the principal characters. Mostly I thought it was a rip-off of the very popular character in Red Dwarf, which got there about two years ahead of Star Trek - and the fact that that was a comedy made the issue more able to be ignored. But it was there even in Red Dwarf, and it's a far more serious flaw in Star Trek.

My doubts have never gone away and now they've grown 100 fold. It might have been a good dramatic device at first, but by developing the character and making us come to see him as a 'real' person, they have backed themselves into a corner from which no amount of clever writing is going to be able to extracate them.

As with the Ponn Farr issue, it would probably have been better to leave well alone, and not try to highlight that there was even an issue there with episodes such as the one that has just aired. If they can't face the flawed nature of the society they have set up, let them stick to the old Star Trek staple - highlighting problems in our society by pretending they only exist in someone elses!!!

Rant over.

Ah, that old can of holographic worms
Jules -- 30 Nov 2000, 22:52 GMT

You've gone much deeper into the whole subject than I ever have, Begonia, but I agree with pretty much everything you say. Holograms are problematic to deal with unless you put the time and effort into thinking out a full set of laws and rules that govern their existence and under what conditions they can and can't achieve sentience before the first scene ever gets written. And I think it's pretty plain to all of us that the Trek writers have never delved that deep. Star Trek offers a wonderfully rich universe to play with, but most of the time scratching the surface and looking closely at what holds it together can be disillusioning.

I've always pretty much sat on the fence concerning the question of the Doctor's sentience myself, even if Terry has the capacity to tie me up in logical knots if I try to explain how and why I feel about him the way I do. (The Doc, that is, not Terry.) I see him as more than a toaster, but less than a human. I'm a computer programmer, and I don't see why it shouldn't be possible by then to construct a program so clever that it can react so much like a sentient being that it's impossible for someone who hasn't actually written or read its algorithms to tell the difference between what has been programmed to act like the real thing, and the thing itself. It's an interesting grey area in itself, but sadly I don't think it's one that's any more likely to be pursued in detail than any of your listed problems with holograms. How many of the crew really believe in their hearts that the Doctor is sentient, and how many are just treating him that way out of politeness, consideration for friends who they believe may accept it as fact, and to give him the benefit of the doubt in case they later find out that they're wrong to doubt it? A little civility doesn't take much time or effort, and may save embarrassment in the long run, after all.

And I do find it kind of interesting that the two people who have been shown to be most resistant to accepting the Doctor as a sentient being rather than a computer program - Janeway and B'Elanna - are both scientists and sceptics, who may well have a better grasp of the technology that powers him than someone like Tom, who has a powerful imagination and a ready acceptance of just about anybody. Is there a reason that they've been the hardest to convince and the most reluctant to commit?

Jules

I agree (Joining you in Spoiler City)
Sherry -- 30 Nov 2000, 23:16 GMT

Doc seems to pick and choose among the rights and responsibilities of a crew member. If he's going to benefit from the freedoms of a sentient being, he should have to live up to the expectations as well.

What "almost" and other thoughts
Sherry -- 30 Nov 2000, 23:30 GMT

"Hmm. The thought of [Tom's being mad at Doc for getting B'Elanna in danger] almost makes me want to write a fic..."

It sounds like a subject for a good story to me!

I got the same early impression about the Hirogen's features not being completely defined by their make-up. The problem was around their mouths and chins, I think--I even got the first impression that they were wearing masks or something.

Some more praise.
Ronit -- 30 Nov 2000, 23:38 GMT

On with the good stuff!

Breaking the mold:

- using the mess hall as a MASH unit / POW hospital. Time to give those cargo bays a break from AOTW receptacle duty.

- staging a fight in the mess hall (with Neelix as a flying projectile!:D).

- friendly non-commerce based interaction with Delta quadrant natives (scientific conferences! awesome!).

- referencing a truly alien looking species (hexapods). Reminds me of Dax's ole boyfriend with the see-through cranium...:)

- like "Muse" we got to see character pairings/interactions that were not the same old same old: Seven & Torres working side-by-side (literally), Chakotay & Tuvok ganging up on Janeway

"Tactical / War Stuff Without a Butterfly Ballot" or "Technobabble, Part II" :

To wit: the second half was very simple. Voyager tiptoes after the Hirogen as they track the Hologram Ship - hiding in the bushes every time the Hirogen look around - and once the HoloShip is spotted Voyager/ Delta Flyer breaks cover and runs like hell to get to the holograms first. Simple but nonetheless dramatic - a classic tale Homer probably covered. You could replace Voyager, Hirogen & Holograms with Cave Man, Tiger and Zebra and it would still work just fine.

Contrast this with the second half of Killing Game, which required a scorecard to keep track of the tactical situation. Infinitely more satisfying.

This is something that DS9 did well, both in single episodes like "Battleship Down" (or "Starship Down"?) and "The Siege of AR-359" as well as the Season 5 - Season 6 arc of Rom's minefield.

It makes for much better story telling.

Now, if some kind & literate person could explain how and why it works so well, I and my turkey-fizzed brain would be quite grateful.

Ronit

Re: My thoughts on that: Icheb and Seven in the cargo bay
Mindy -- 1 Dec 2000, 00:34 GMT

Well, maybe they're doing things in there that they don't want the rest of the crew to know about!

Dirty-minded Mindy

Re: So, can the Doctor be programmed to feel pain or taste food?
Mindy -- 1 Dec 2000, 00:38 GMT

So does that mean the Doctor would take a holographic sh#t in a holographic toilet?

Does it mean the Doctor could write his holographic name in the holographic snow?

Dirty-minded Mindy

That's even better, Mindy! NIM
Nina -- 1 Dec 2000, 01:13 GMT

Now I'm roaring!
Nina -- 1 Dec 2000, 01:15 GMT

And scaring Kate the Explorer Cat - no, she's going to purr instead. Maybe she's amused, too?

FLESH AND BLOOD -
D -- 1 Dec 2000, 01:16 GMT

I liked this one.

Continuity - Consequences of something they did 3 years ago. Torres' attitude towards Cardies and, as someone else mentinoed, her & Doc in "Revulsion" Messhall as overflow sickbay (YOH, "Memorial")

Good Torres episode. They rememebered that, while Tom & Harry may be the holographic software/ programming gurus, B'Elanna's the expert on the underlying hardware. I imagine she saw a lot of herself in the Hirogen engineer, who is also not following the storied career path of his race but is no less important and honorable. Really liked her reaction when the first group of holograms she met included 2 Cardassians and a Borg! And Seven admitting that the repairs would probably be completed faster if B'Elanna was there.

I don't have a problem with Voyager encountering Hirogen, since they said in "Killing Game" that they're scatered all over the quadrant and the Array stretched to the edge of the Alpha Quadrant, but I would have like some mention of how the holo-technology got 25,000 light years from where it was acquired. Do the Hirogen have some sort of transwarp on their large ships or did they just transmit the specs over whatever relay system replaced the Array?

As for the ending, I would have preferred the severe chewing out that Mulgrew wanted, but I can understand the option they took. Janeway was feeling guilty that it was her original transfer of the technology that allowed the whole mess to happen so she didn't come down as hard on the Doctor as she could have.

You can see the steam from way over there?
Shadda -- 1 Dec 2000, 03:30 GMT

It's interesting that Mulgrew agrees with me, or I should say, I agree with Mulgrew. The ending ruined a very good show. I liked it, right up to the end. Then they blew it big time. There was no reason to have such an insipid ending. What truly was the logic behind not punishing the doc. When he came in with his pathetic little, "if I wasn't the only doctor you would confine me to the brig" I muttered, when has that stopped you from leaving Voyager for long periods of time. If Tom is doctor enough for Doc to leave for a month like he did in Life Line, he is certainly doctor enough for the doc to spend a month in the brig.

The problem is, I liked this show, right up until they let me down with that final scene.

Shadda, muttering about double standards as she shuffles off to The West Wing.

PS. Hey Meg, is Charlie becoming West Wings Wesley Crusher?

The Doc didn't do it.
Geordi -- 1 Dec 2000, 03:37 GMT

I can't see Tom blaming the Doc for B'Elanna's kidnapping when it wasn't him that kidnapped her nor supported the act. I'm sure Tom, after hearing from B'Elanna what happen on the ship, wouldn't do anything bad to the Doc.

Sorry, but I can't see Tom going all out to be rude and crude to the Doc.

Doc DID put the ship in a vulnerable position
AC -- 1 Dec 2000, 03:58 GMT

I do see your point, Geordi, but he gave the codes to the holograms so that Voyager and the gizmo that Torres created would be vulnerable. They'd never have been able to take her if he hadn't set up a situation where the ship was damaged and shields were down. She's lucky she didn't get turned into a crispy critter when they tried to overload the warp core.

Maybe the Doc was a bit clueless. But here he was strutting around, saying that he couldn't fix major problems with his matrix, but that Torres could.

He isn't responsible for the actions of Iden, but he IS responsible for putting the ship at risk, and that led directly to Torres' abduction.

I can't see Tom being crude to the Doc, but neither can I see him completely absolving the Doctor of all responsibility. Not that I expect the writers to pick up on this issue, of course.

AC

I disagree with the majority
Geordi -- 1 Dec 2000, 04:02 GMT

The way everyone is ranting that the Doc should had been punished big time is a bit over the top IMO.

I do agree that he should be punish. He at least recognized the need when he offer Janeway to take his emitter. But the way everyone is saying he should be punish as harsh as Tom, I have to say "No".

Why not? First off, Tom's punishment was too harsh, both a demotion and 30 days solitary confindment, so it makes it feels that Janeway's decision was based on an emotional response.

The second thing is that Tom never back off on his decision when ordered to return. Doc realized his mistake sometime after realizing the HoloLeader was going physco try to made up for the mistake. Even he prevented the death of the Hirogen. Heck, even B'Elanna, who was there, is a witness that he tried to redeem his mistake.

Place Doc in the brig? Bad decision, for he is Voyager's only major doctor. Tom is not qualify for major medicine. Doc is. If any crewmember have a degree in medicine who have survived "Caretaker", Doc wouldn't be there.

Doc's outline for punishment seems fitting. Take away his emitter and evoke his holodeck previleges. Confine him to Sickbay. And if need to take a step further, order the crew not to visit Sickbay unless they require medical care. Simple as that. He wouldn't be in solitary confindment but he would be confined nevetheless.

So, yes, I agree that he should have been punished, thus I do agree with Kate's disappointment with the ending. But I don't think it require to be so harsh as everyone here is indicating, when Tom's punishment, as most I know kept saying, was overdone due to Janeway's emotion of feeling betrayed.

BTW, despite Janeway not punishing the Doc, I like the ending. Great acting on both Kate and Bob's parts in the scene.

Season Seven continues. Thank God.
Deb47 -- 1 Dec 2000, 04:16 GMT

Has anyone here read Beryl Markham's book, "West With the Night"? If not, I heartily encourage you to put it on your winter (Summer for those down "under") reading list.

It has absolutely NOTHING to do with Sci-fi, and is probably one of the best books I've ever read.

When I watched the end of last night's show, I immediately thought of Beryl's book, and the chapter entitled "He was a good lion.".

But... I'm getting ahead of myself. I started this post talking about season 7.

This ep could have never been done before this season.

It needed characters who have traveled enough that they could honestly say they've evolved beyond their "original programming".

The Hirogen technician certainly evolved beyond the bounds of his culture.

The Cardassian "engineer" evolved beyond her genetic "killer instincts"/not to mention her "holograms first" mentality.

B'Elanna has evolved beyond her "I hate all things Cardassian" paradigms, and "lets muscle/shoot our way through any problem" AKA her prejudice against "Diplomacy! Janeway's answer to everthing!".

And the Doctor.

Sigh.

TPTB had D@mn well give him a name this season, because they have given him "much more" in his 2 tour de force's this year. "Critical Care", and now "Flesh & Blood". They've given him the ability to ignore his programming to heal the sick (When he tortured the Administrator) and to be loyal to his Captain/crew.

Janeway said it well, when she realized this fact.

She can no longer "count" on the EMH the way she can "count" on "Voyager". She can't "count" on him to be true to his Utopia Planitia programmers intentions.

And that thought gives her pause.

Like she told the Hirogen Technician and the Cardassian Hologram, they have to stop and consider the consequences of their actions.

Just as she has to do.

The Doc was "lucky", wasn't he? I mean really, what he "did" was 10 orders of magnitude "worse" than what Tom did in "Thirty Days", Right?

Then why doesn't she rip him a new anal orifice?

Why indeed.

Maybe because, my Queen has changed. She has evolved. She has expanded beyond her organic prejudices. And maybe because, as B'Elanna said to the EMH on that ship... the time to "assign blame" was later. And when Janeway started to pass it out, she had a fair amount on her own plate.

Blame for not realizing what she had wrought in allowing the EMH to expand his program.

Blame for not instilling in him the respect and morality required of a loyal crewman.

Blame for giving him the "appearance" of freedom, without the "actuality" of it.

Yes, she offered to let him "leave" in "Virtuoso", but has she treated him with the same thought and respect as an organic member of her crew?

Her look at the end of this ep suggests, the answer is no. She allowed and encouraged him to think of himself as something more than a programmer's product, and then was shocked to find him acting on that very supposition.

That brings me back to "Paddy", and Beryl's book.

Beryl grew up in Africa, moving there as a 4 year old just before the 1st world war. She tells wonderful stories about her experiences... one of which includes her relationship with "Paddy", the Elkington's "tame" lion.

"When I was a child, I spent all my days with the Nandi Murani, hunting barefooted, in the Rongai Valley, or in the cedar forests of the Mau Escarpment.

At first I was not permitted to carry a spear, but the Murani depended on nothing else.

You cannot hunt an animal with such a weapon unless you know the way of his life. You must know the things he loves, the things he fears, the paths he will follow. You must be sure of the quality of his speed and the measure of his courage. He will know as much about you, and at times make better use of it....

One day, when we were riding to Elkington's, my father spoke about lions.

'Lions are more intelligent than some men' he said, 'and more courageous than most. A lion will fight for what he has and for what he needs; he is contempuous of cowards and wary of his equals. But he is not afraid. You can always trust a lion to be exactly what he is - and never anything else.'

'Except,' he added, looking more paternally concerned than usual,'that d@mned lion of Elkington's!'.......

But Paddy, the Elkington lion, had never seen a cage.

He had grown to full size, tawny, black maned and muscular, without a worry or a care. He lived on fresh meat, not of his own killing...

He thrived in solitude. He had no mate, but pretended indifference and walked alone, not toying too much with imaginings of the unattainable. There were no physical barriers to his freedom, but the lions of the plains do not accept into their respected fraternity an individual bearing in his coat the smell of men....

....

Why I ran at all or with what purpose in mind is beyond my answering, but when I had no specific destination I always ran as fast as I could in the hope of finding one - and I always found it.

I was within 20 yards of the Elkington lion before saw him. He lay sprawled in the morning sun, huge, black maned, and gleaming with life. His tail moved slowly, stroking the rough grass like a knotted rope end.....He was not asleep; he was only idle. He was rusty red and soft, like a strokable cat.

I stopped and he lifted his head with magnificent ease and stared at me out of yellow eyes.

I stood there staring back.... - A very small girl who knew about lions.

Paddy raised himself then, emitting a little sigh, and began to contemplate me with a kind of quiet premeditation, like a slow witted man fondling an unaccustomed thought.

I cannot say that there was any menace in his eyes, because there wasn't, or that his 'frightful jowls' were drooling, because they were handsome jowls and very tidy. He did sniff the air, though, with what impressed me as being close to audible satisfaction. And he did not lie down again.

......

(What follows is an awesome account where she was "moderately eaten by the large lion")

......

The large lion had not returned at all. That night he killed a horse, and the next night he killed a yearling bullock, and after that a cow fresh for milking.

In the end he was caught and finally caged...He remained for years in his cage, which, had he managed to live in freedom with his inhibitions, he might never have seen at all.

It seems characteristic of the mind of man that the repression of what is natural to humans must be abhorred, but that what is natural to an infinitly more natural animal must be confined within the bounds of a reason peculair only to men -- more peculair sometimes than seems reasonable at all....

But the result was the same to Paddy. He had lived and died in ways not of his choosing. He was a good lion. He had done what he could about being a tame lion. Who thinks it is just to be judged by a single error?

I still have the scars of his teeth and claws, but they are very small now and almost forgotten, and I cannot begrudge him his moment."

WWTN By BM Northpoint Press, SanFranscico, 1983. (Reprinted from inital publication in the 1940's)

My point, if anyone is still reading this, is that if Beryl could forgive a lion for reverting to a "natural" state, after he "ate" her... then I see no reason why a mature Janeway could forgive her "Paddy"... a being living in an unnatural state, following an unnatural culture, for not ultimately living up to "her" expectations.

She now knows her "tame" lion is "not" tame. She now knows she assumed too much, and bears responsibility for his actions because of "her" actions.

Elkington's Lion.

Janeway's EMH.

Both more than either "owner"/friend ever expected.

How different the world must seem to Kathryn this evening.

D47

How do you program feelings?
Shadda -- 1 Dec 2000, 04:29 GMT

I agree with you both, Begonia and Jules. I loved what you both said What an ugly mess. I am reminded of Rabbi Kushmans take on the Garden of Eden and the forbidden fruit, or even Pandoras Box. The fruit is not only the fruit of knowledge, but the fruit of consequences, the fruit of sentience if you will. That first moment in time when we humans realized that what we do is not isolated to the moment but can have far reaching effects, and we are responsible for those effects. The pain of giving life is not the pain of childbirth, but the pain of raising that child when everything that happens to them, every hurt they feel, you feel ten fold. Sentience isn't just selfawareness, but the understanding of your relationship to the rest of the world and your responsibility to the rest of the world.

Begonia, your point about the Federation having still not gotten past the owning of slaves, or really simply doing what is expediant is right on. Not only is it right on, it is probably exactly where we will be in 400 years. We humans, on a certain level know we shouldn't do things, but we will persist in doing them, because that is the way we are. We, as a society rise above our lesser selves, when put to the test, most of the time, when we finally recognize where we are going wrong. But it takes a long time for that to happen. Centuries even. We humans are not going to change in 400 years either. How very interesting if that were truly explored. It is up to us as individuals to demand that society demand more from each of us as individuals. Okay that was convoluted.

I'm not sure I see the doc as sentient, but that could be a prejudice on my part. I am not crazy about the idea of "flesh and blood" beings having that kind of power. I just don't think we're that close to God.

Shadda, who is rambling tonight, please forgive.

I think what Doc did was far worse.
Shadda -- 1 Dec 2000, 04:54 GMT

"The second thing is that Tom never back off on his decision when ordered to return. Doc realized his mistake sometime after realizing the HoloLeader was going physco try to made up for the mistake. Even he prevented the death of the Hirogen. Heck, even B'Elanna, who was there, is a witness that he tried to redeem his mistake."

The people Tom sided with were not crazy meglomanics. Tom never backed down because he still believed that the people were killing their planet. Doc backed down because he realized that the Idon was nutzo and ready to kill any organic he came across.

"Place Doc in the brig? Bad decision, for he is Voyager's only major doctor. Tom is not qualify for major medicine. Doc is. If any crewmember have a degree in medicine who have survived "Caretaker", Doc wouldn't be there."

If that were the case then why was he allowed to leave Voyager for a month and go back to earth. At least in the brig he could get beamed to sickbay quickly. He, Doc, obviously thinks that Tom is quite capable. He was ready to leave Voyager forever in Virtuoso.

Of course I think Tom's punishment was too sever in 30 Days, but what the doc did was so much worse. In fact Tom spent quite a bit of time fixing the people who were injured because of Doc's actions. He very nearly got the entire crew killed. Tom never endangered anyones life. I don't think Doc should necessarly spend a month in the brig, but if that is the punishment for one, then it certainly should be the punishment for all.

Shadda

So you come down on the Doc is not sentient side.
Shadda -- 1 Dec 2000, 05:14 GMT

"She now knows her "tame" lion is "not" tame. She now knows she assumed too much, and bears responsibility for his actions because of "her" actions.

Elkington's Lion.

Janeway's EMH.

Both more than either "owner"/friend ever expected.

How different the world must seem to Kathryn this evening."

That was one of my points earlier. Sentience means not only selfawarness, but understanding ones responsibilities to the outside world. To rise above the expiedent and do the right thing. Janeway realizes now that the EMH is not sentient, and cannot be counted on in the same way she can count on her "flesh and blood" crew. We cannot expect animals to rise above what is their nature, no matter how domesticated. So Doc has exceeded his programing, but is still a toaster. Just a really really good toaster now. Or did I miss your point? I have just tried to read everyone posts and am totally confused at this time. Did you like it or not? Is this Deb? Yes, I have lost my mind, and if you find it, just keep it, it wasn't doing me much good anyway.

Shadda

Feel free to rant like that any time, Begonia
Vickie -- 1 Dec 2000, 14:11 GMT

And not just because I happen to agree with you. I enjoyed your analysis.

I deeply dislike the way Voyager has so cavalierly granted sentience to "photonics." As an aside, have you all noticed the way Voyager has started to refer to holographic beings as "photonics," which makes them sound much more like a species in their own right and much less like the computer programs they really are? I am willing to accept the Doc as a sentient being by explaining it as some unexpected and unique interaction between Voyager's bioneural circuitry and extended operation of the program. I am, however, much less willing to accept that any hologram with sufficiently sophisticated programming can be sentient.

Vickie

Me, too.
Vickie -- 1 Dec 2000, 14:18 GMT

"Write his name in the snow." Snort.

Vickie

That's a wonderful definition of "sentience", Shadda.
MEG -- 1 Dec 2000, 14:55 GMT

And I also enjoyed Begonia's and Jules' comments.

One of the reasons that hologram episodes simply don't work for me -- and not only don't work but really annoy me -- is that there's no evidence the writers have ever thought the subject through, or that they ever will, much less that they've really confronted the cultural, social, and moral implications. I suppose they don't think their beloved target demographic would be interested in anything like that.

So we're left with a universe that can make holographic beings sentient in one episode, and make them Treevis and Flotter in another.

Hmmm. Just wait a few years. Biller has a new baby, doesn't he? In about two years, she'll be old enough to want to watch Barney or the Teletubbies. She'll want to watch the same video of Barney or the Teletubbies -- over and over and over and over. Just remember, Ken. By Star Trek rules, if you leave them running long enough, they'll come to life and it will be immoral to turn them off. You wouldn't want to murder Barney, would you?

MEG

LOL, Shadda! Hadn't thought of that.
MEG -- 1 Dec 2000, 14:59 GMT

But he might well be. Poor Charlie! Talk about your fates worse than death!!

MEG

True, but....
Geordi -- 1 Dec 2000, 16:18 GMT

you're saying that because Doc put Voyager in a vulnerable position, the holograms was given the ability to kidnap Torres. It led to the kidnapping but still from your words, you're still blaming Doc for Torres's kidnapping.

Doc asked Iden (I'm not good in hearing names then trying to transcribe it to words) to not to harm Voyager if given the codes. Iden more or less kept his promise but did went overboard, which IIRC Doc was concern since Iden did promise not to harm Voyager. Doc didn't want to destroy Voyager, just want the Holograms to ability to escape.

ROTFL, MEG! (nim)
Ronit -- 1 Dec 2000, 16:37 GMT

Did Doc endangered a society?
Geordi -- 1 Dec 2000, 16:43 GMT

That's the question. Tom did endangered an entire society, and he wasn't on anyone's side but himself. And Doc didn't saw Iden become crazy until *after* he gave the Holograms the codes. Just like us the viewers, we didn't see Iden become crazy until later. Iden looked normal at the time and was defending himself and his people against being destroyed.

And another thing was that the Moneans threatened to go to war with Voyager if Tom succeeded. Tom, being a representative of Voyager, not only threatened Monean society but Voyager's being as well. He was doing it for a good deed, yes, but his actions to achive that good deed (to get the Moneans to stop using the plants) was the wrong way to go.

We both agree that Doc should be punish. Just I don't agree that Doc should be punish so harsely when Tom's punishment was seen to be overdone, which is also what we agree.

Tom also disobeyed direct orders from Janeway to backdown. There was no opportunity after Janeway found out what Doc done to tell Doc to backdown. Doc did it on his own. Tom didn't back down even when told.

Doc was doing what he felt was right in helping the Holograms. To preserve life, not to destroy it. He did asked Iden not to harm Voyager, but didn't anticipate Iden's way in defending himself against Voyager.

As much as I love Janeway, she certainly didn't want to hear the other side of the story. She made up her mind to deactivated the Holograms without thought to whether they really are sentient and self-aware, like the Doc. Her stance with holograms is quite puzzling. She refused to allow Fair Haven to be deactivated in "Spirit Folk", yet so eager to deactivated the Holograms without thought. If she sees the Doc to be 'flesh and blood', why not the Holograms?

She told Harry in "Nightingale" that there she haven't heard the other side of the story regarding the war, yet in "FaB" she wouldn't want to listen to the other side.

(shrug) Up to the point that Iden went physco, I was with the Holograms. I know that Janeway siding with the Hirogens was part of the dramatic plot, but I can't see her so willing to be on one side without hearing the other side of the story as she told Harry. I bet if she tried to reach a compromise between the two sides, she would had prevented Voyager from being harm. Of course, it would have end the story by the end of the first hour, thus we wouldn't had a movie then.

Plotting mutiny in the name of Efficiency
Ronit -- 1 Dec 2000, 16:44 GMT

would be my bet.

Ronit

Barney sentient? Nah.....
Roxanne -- 1 Dec 2000, 18:14 GMT

That would be cruel even to our worst enemy.

Loved the parallel between the forbidden fruit and sentience, Shadda. I too have a lot of problem with a sentient computer program. That's part of the reason "Spirit Folk did nothing for me.

Roxanne

re: True, but....
AC -- 1 Dec 2000, 18:58 GMT

Obviously, you're expecting me to be completely logical and articulate on 5 hours sleep. I'm not going back and referencing every word I've previously written, since I've never really cared for debating completely based on semantics.

For me, the point isn't what Doc's actions were once he got off Voyager. It was his actions BEFORE, when he directly worked against the rest of the crew that I find so terrible. He put the ship at risk to join a group of people that he had no reason to trust, and a leader who ultimately betrayed that trust.

So now we're given to understand that Doc is not only egotistical, but incredibly naive.

I'm not saying that everything bad that happened was Doc's fault. However, his decision to work against the crew put a series of events in motion that would not have been possible otherwise, and I could easily see members of the crew feeling that he had betrayed them.

Re: Is it?
Begonia -- 1 Dec 2000, 19:01 GMT

Hhm. Agree with what you say, but the definition that Shadda gives of sentience isn't encompassing enough.

What about an autistic child? By this definition many of them wouldn't be classified as sentient.

I've "got" your mind right here, Shadda...
Deb47 -- 1 Dec 2000, 19:02 GMT

And if you're very good I'll give it back before tax season starts!

For the left brain people among us...

#1) Yes, I liked this ep. In fact I liked it so much I refrained from coming to the board until I could watch it again last night.

#2) No... I do not belong in the "Doc isn't sentient" camp. I'm afraid I believe he is sentient.

My allusion to Elkington's Lion/Janeway's EMH is that neither person could "trust" their Lion/EMH because neither really "knew" the Lion/EMH.

The show itself showed us the fallacy of "assumption" when it comes to interpreting another's actions using ourselves as a template. The EMH assumed Iden was courageous AND moral in terms "he" defined for himself... and was shown how WRONG that assumption really was.

Janeway assumed the EMH would always be loyal to her/her crew, but never realized that "just" because he looks human, he ISN'T. He's a hologram, searching for an undefinable thing called "belonging". Yes, he "belongs" on Voyager... but only as a curiosity,,, like Elkington's lion.

Janeway didn't realize this. She made a nearly fatal error, Like Bwanna Elkinton did with Paddy. She trusted were she shouldn't.

But, now that she "knows" the EMH is not just a xerox of Tom or Harry, then she has a chance to interact with him on a more equal basis.

So, Shadda, have you read this book yet?

D47

Re: Ranting...
Begonia -- 1 Dec 2000, 19:11 GMT

I'm sure there will be more rants in the future... This program just seems to have the knack of pushing my buttons from time to time. Which is probably a good thing, except they get pushed for the wrong reasons, ie, knowing something hasn't been addressed or thought through instead of watching a well reasoned, well thought out hour of highly controversial television.

Better to have a runny nose than a runny brain...

Re-Bloodied: Flesh and Blood Gets Even Better on 2nd Viewing
david g -- 1 Dec 2000, 19:22 GMT

Rewatching it this morning (zoning out after a tough week), I am amazed by how much better and tighter and, well, organic Flesh and Blood seems.

Even Idan's conversion-to-messianic-madman-meanie didnt seem QUITE so implausible and abrupt.

I remain deeply impressed by the B'Ellana of this ep--the best she's been since BARGE!

Who KNEW that silly, dopey Jeff Yagher (who set my teeth on edge in BIONIC SHOWDOWN, w/Sandra Bullock as a new Jaime Sommers [i think not!])could give so compelling a performance. It really is a shame that they trashed his character.

My other disappointment about this ep is that the holograms were pretty inert in terms of their interactions.

Yes, theyre holograms, but what about their identities? Surely Breens, Cardies, Borg, Romulans, Klingons, will have SOME friction their holographic identities cant transcend?

i love Eric's aptly named Cardiegram--superb character, what a pity she couldnt stay on.

This is a flawed but compelling episode, and it left me excited about VOY again.

david g

As Janeway didn't punish Doc, why not a Top 10 List
Diane -- 1 Dec 2000, 20:02 GMT

of prospective punishments. What would be appropriate. I cam up with six. I need help with the final four.

1. Harry Kim is fited with one of Seven's ocular implants and Doc is forced to live inside Harry for 30 days.

2. B'Elanna enhances Doc's subroutines to include taste and pain, thus making him endure Neelix's cooking.

3. Assign Neexis to be Doc's new medical assistant for 30 days.

4. Assign Icheb to be Doc's new medical assistant for 30 days.

5. Janeway promotes Naomi from Captain's assistant to Doctor's assistant.

6. Janeway records Opera's greatest hits. Doc must listen to them for 60 days.

OK, I need 7, 8,9, and 10.

Di

Re: As Janeway didn't punish Doc, why not a Top 10 List
malcom -- 1 Dec 2000, 20:07 GMT

#7 Forced to wear underwear on the outside of his uniform for a full week. M

More Doc Punishments
Diane -- 1 Dec 2000, 20:21 GMT

Tracey,

You inspire me.

Doc is forced to wear Seven's Silver outfit, as he designed it, implants, heels and all.

Di

Re: More Doc Punishments
malcom -- 1 Dec 2000, 20:36 GMT

Next to this suggestion, mine just fades away...T/M

Re: Did Doc endangered a society? Yes, he did, Geordi.
Mindy -- 1 Dec 2000, 20:45 GMT

He endangered the society known as VOYAGER. A simple definition of "society" is "any group that works together for a specified goal within a specified guidlines or rules."

VOYAGER is a group of people whose stated goal is to return to the Alpha Quadrant. Their guidelines are those of Starfleet.

Mindy

What I like about this definition. . .
MEG -- 1 Dec 2000, 21:34 GMT

. . .is that it makes a useful distinction between "intelligence" and "sentience". Now, according to my dictionary, sentience originally meant consciousness or awareness, a capacity for perceiving or feeling. By that definition, an amoeba is sentient. But as it's now used, particularly as it's been used in the whole "holograms are people too" scenario, sentience seems to mean "intelligent" or "capable of self-determination", or perhaps "individual". The writers don't seem to have any better grip on what is meant by sentience than they do on the implications of holograms. And as with those implications, they seem to want to have it both ways.

Actually my preference would be to stick this genie back in the bottle and give sentience back its original meaning. Since that's not likely to happen , Shadda's definition appeals to me as a way of encompassing both intelligence and awareness and linking them to a perception of something beyond the immediate concerns of the individual.

I do think somebody needs to invent a better term for it than poor, overworked "sentience" though.

MEG

How about using a different word for it altogether?
Nina -- 1 Dec 2000, 21:45 GMT

This comes to mind since I recently read Anne McCaffrey's novel "Nimisha's Ship." (McCaffrey's a guilty pleasure of mine.) She was using "sapient" in the same way Trek uses "sentient," and I thought it worked quite well.

A fiendish refinement.
Nina -- 1 Dec 2000, 21:50 GMT

#2 - make that Janeway's cooking.

As I said before...
Roxanne -- 1 Dec 2000, 22:12 GMT

Giving aid and comfort to the enemy is called Treason. That's why the doc should have been punished. However, in this day and age when cheating and lying and murder are rewarded what can one say about the rest.

Roxanne

Re: 2nd Viewing. Now david... I thought we "discussed" this last month!
Deb47 -- 1 Dec 2000, 22:41 GMT

You are NOT allowed to post a negative review of Voyager UNLESS and UNTILL you've sat through it a 2nd time.

Wait till you let it sit and stew in your imagination a day or two, and then watch it a third time!

Hey kiddo... have you read "WWTN" yet?

D47

Simplified what? The Doc's decision to return, yes...
Deb47 -- 1 Dec 2000, 23:18 GMT

But it did not simplify the problem of "sentience". In fact, TPTB brought up the problem of "evolution" quite nicely this week.

With Idan, and The Carassigram, we see 2 versions of fully evolved "holograms". One which evolved into megalomania... and one which evolved into a conscience worthy of a Federation organic being.

With the "liberated" alien holograms, we see the "difference" between "evolved"/sentient holograms and non-evolved/mindless machines. Perhaps if we put cro-magnon man up against a neanderthal, or whatever came before same.

The Doc and the lady Cardassian along with the other holograms on the war party probably "are" a new species... and yes, TPTB made it easier for the Doc to find a reason to "stay" on Voyager by making Idan "crazy"... but haven't they always "done" that.

Didn't they keep Odo separate from the Founders for so long by making it morally difficult for Odo to "join" them in the Great link until that final episode?

The difficulty, however, for Janeway remains, whether Idan is crazy or not.

She must deal with this "new" species that has chosen to remain on her ship.

"It" would have been simpler for her if he just ran off with the lady Cardie, or even if the lady Cardie remained on board with him to create their "own" little world/culture.

D47

Re: As Janeway didn't punish Doc, why not a Top 10 List
D -- 2 Dec 2000, 01:44 GMT

For the next 30 (or 60) Days:

No opera - make him listen to Tom's entire collection of Rock & Roll music instead.

Take away his camera.

No away missions unless medical treatment necessary.

Not allowed to participate in talent nights or give slide shows or lectures (3 months).

I very much want to read it Deb, I'll put it on my Christmas list.
Shadda -- 2 Dec 2000, 01:57 GMT

I did misunderstand. I thought you were pointing out that by humanizing the lion/EMH we were granting it characteristics it didn't have. The lion will revert to it's nature. You cannot tame a wild animal and expect it to not eat you if given the opportunity. What is that word for giving our animals human feelings? I can't for the life of me think of it. Anyway, the lion simply did what lions do. The EMH didn't have enough of the human feelings and characteristics needed to chose it's crew over the shiny new stone. He has done it before, we shouldn't be surprised. We are, because we expect him to act human, Starfleet human. I say human, because his designer is human. But he will eat us if given the chance. He has left the crew in the lurch many times, he will do it again. Should we be surprised or should we prepare for it by limiting his scope and movements? And by either insisting that Tom truly study to become the next doctor or finding someone else to be the next doctor.

Janeway looks upon the doc differently now. I'm not sure she looks upon him as more of an equal though. I think she is still thinking about it I certainly am. Ah, to the beast within us all.

Shadda

Excellent, Nina!
MEG -- 2 Dec 2000, 02:08 GMT

A different word is just what we need, and I like the idea of "sapient" (especially since my feeble brain was certainly refusing to come up with any bright ideas).

MEG

Excuse me?
Geordi -- 2 Dec 2000, 02:09 GMT

Sorry, Mindy, but I don't buy that. Tom endangered a lot more than 150 people! Talk say into the thousands! So can't see your point that Tom is less guilty than Doc.

They weren't the enemy
Geordi -- 2 Dec 2000, 02:20 GMT

Now this is too far.

First off, the Holograms weren't Voyager's enemies until Voyager started trying to disable them. They tried to reason with Voyager but Janeway didn't want to hear their side. So what do you expect them to do? Not to fight back?

Sorry, gals, but no matter what you said, I'm not convince Doc is more a 'traitor' than Tom, who treaten more than thousands of lives with his eco-radical approach to solving the Monean's problems.

Did Doc endangered a society? You bet.
Shadda -- 2 Dec 2000, 02:21 GMT

"Tom did endangered an entire society, and he wasn't on anyone's side but himself."

First of all, Tom didn't endanger an entre society. He was targeting one of many plants. That was not going to endanger anyone. He was on the side of the society that was in the dark about what was happening to their planet. He was certainly not in it for himself. He fully expected to die.

"And another thing was that the Moneans threatened to go to war with Voyager if Tom succeeded. Tom, being a representative of Voyager, not only threatened Monean society but Voyager's being as well."

It was establised at the very beginning that the Moneans were no match for Voyager. They could never have penetrated their shields and Voyager could simply have outrun them. They were never in any danger. The doc, on the other hand, by giving the shield frequencies to the enemy left Voyager completely vulnerable.

There are pretty much standing orders not to aid the enemy. To do so is in violation of so many orders and rules that they probably take a book to articulate competely. The doc aided the enemy. Tom's situation was completely different then the docs. There were no enemys. Tom was doing the wrong thing for the right reasons. Doc was doing the wrong thing for the wrong reasons and almost got his entire crew killed. For all we know, some crew members did die. If that is the case, is what the doc did still no as bad as what Tom did?

Shall we agree to disagree?

Shadda

I was speaking of species Begonia.
Shadda -- 2 Dec 2000, 02:36 GMT

Within the species there will be the amoral, the challanged, both mentally and emotionally. One of the definations of human, or homosapien is walking upright on two legs. My daughter uses a wheelchair, but she is still homosapien even though she couldn't walk upright if her life depended on it. She has no qualms about rolling over you if you get in her way though.

I suppose I didn't make myself clear, which is not unusual for me. But your right, my defination is probably not emcompassing enough.

Shadda

Tom did commit *terrorism*
Geordi -- 2 Dec 2000, 02:40 GMT

It doens't matter if he is targetting one plant or not, any act of terrorism is an endangerment to society. He acted out of bounds and quite reckless in his act. His actions would have solve nothing but cause more harm than good.

And just because one Monean ship is no match to Voyager, doesn't mean that the entire *fleet* can't do Voyager harm. Don't underestimate the power numbers can do. Anymore than underestimating a bee hive.

And I mentioned this before in another post. The Holograms were not Voyager's enemy until Voyager started to try to deactivated them. Janeway didn't want to listen to their side and clearly didn't even consider that the Holograms could be sentience like the Doc. Not once. What do you expect them to do? Not to fight back?

The episode is not 'black and white' as everyone think it is. It doesn't make sense for Janeway to not deactivate Fair Haven in "Spirit Folk", when the holograms in the program is clearly not on the level as Doc, yet she doesn't care when deactivating holograms in "FaB" that is clearly on Doc's level. Does this makes sense?

So, yes, I agree to disagree with you, Shadda. I clearly don't see Doc more guilty than Tom. I do see him guilty but not more than Tom.

What?
Shadda -- 2 Dec 2000, 02:50 GMT

Who was Tom endangering? He was targeting a single oxygen conversion plant. An empty single oxygen conversion plant. The planet had many of these oxygen conversion plants so one being off line was not going to hurt them. I'm still not sure who Tom was endangering? It was established that no one was going to get hurt, except perhaps Tom and his companion. Tom told them to clear the plant and we are assuming they did. He wasn't going to blow up the planet. He wasn't going to blow up their only oxygen conversion plant. Who was in danger of dying?

Shadda

This old chustnut again.
Geordi -- 2 Dec 2000, 03:18 GMT

For many, the issue whether Doc or any hologram is sentient or not is a power keg that certainly have no ends in sight.

Yet for me, I don't even quibble on it. Why? Begonia mentioned Lt. Commander Data in TNG, and his one episode regarding whether he is sentient in "Measure of a Man". Picard have given good reasons to why Data is sentient and should have the right to choose. Those reasons, for me that is, are good guidelines to draw whether a hologram is sentient or not.

Or is the word we're using now is 'sepient'?

Doc fit the guidelines. He is self-aware of who he is, what he is, etc. He is aware of his surroundings and environment.

Take the guidelines and try to fit them to the Fair Haven folks. They don't fit, thus why I can't see why Janeway don't want to deactivate them in "Spirit Folk" to save two of her own crew.

Same is with Leonardo DaVinci, the holograms in Sandrine's, the Lord in Janeway's gothic novel, and I'm sure others.

Now what about that isomorph (isomorph, hologram, what the difference?! ) in "Revulsion". Is he senti... err... sepient according to the guidelines? He is for his is aware of who is he, his surroundings, etc. He was loony that I admit thus a very good reason for Torres to electricic him to bits.

The Holopeople in "FaB" in my eyes also fit the parameters, thus reason why I can't see why Janeway can say she treats Doc as a member of the crew yet so easily side with the Hirogens without hearing the Holopeople side and to see whether they are sepient as the Doc.

The entire issue whether holograms are sepient or not is no brainer for me. Certain holograms, like the Fair Haven people, I wouldn't feel any guilt for deactivating them. The Doc? I feel he is sepient, thus he suddenly gets deactivated because Janeway one day don't care anymore, then I would be the first to say that Janeway should be on trile for murder.

See my response below, Shadda. It is still *terrorism*. (NIM)
Geordi -- 2 Dec 2000, 03:21 GMT

Dear Deb--how do I access "WWTN"? and youre SO right about 2nd chance-viewing! NIM
david g -- 2 Dec 2000, 03:53 GMT

I'll Look up the Markham at Amazon, Deb! NIM
david g -- 2 Dec 2000, 03:56 GMT

Yes, it was terrorism.
Roxanne -- 2 Dec 2000, 04:22 GMT

Yes, he deserved to be punished. He was, and many of us thought that it was justified.

However, the doc gave them classified info. Voyager was being fired upon with the intent to either kill or disable them; that makes them the enemy. Janeway did offer them a way out; they just chose to think she wouldn't keep up her end of the bargain.

Roxanne

Re: He should have SOME kind of punishment.
Deb47 -- 2 Dec 2000, 04:26 GMT

Roxanne pointed out: "What he did was far more serious than what Tom did in "Thirty Days," and yet Tom gets demoted, but the Doc gets nothing."

Hmmmmm.

Tom was reduced in rank from lt to ensign, and placed in the brig for 30 days.

When he was done, he was back on the bridge, piloting Voyager. He was back on the holodeck playing with his best bud Harry. He was back on deck 9 section 12 making whoopie with a superior officer, and generally enjoying every priviledge his station in life gave him before his demotion.

The Doc, on the other hand, gets a lukewarm scolding from Janeway.

And when she was done... the Doc was left in sickbay.

Alone.

No-one of his "race" to talk to. No one of his "race" to bond with...No-one of his "race" to discuss/discover culture or "God". No-one of his "race" to commiserate with on the trials and tribulations of being a black dot on a white page.

No-one, no-where, who can look into his eyes and tell him with absolute certainty that "I" know how you feel, and "I" feel the same way.

How does one "punish" a toaster?

Treat him "kindly" while considering him as merely an "advanced" toaster.

Tom gave up a title, and a month.

The Doc gave up perhaps his only chance to belong to a culture made up of individuals just like himself.

Sure, Janeway could have "emasculated" him "again" as some derisively termed it in their reviews of "Virtuoso"... and she could have "restricted" him to quarters for 30 days/months/years to insure punishment "parity" with our golden boy, but to what end?

The Doc has punished himself more than Janeway EVER could, by leaving the Cardiegram and rejoining Voyager.

D47

Semantics
Shadda -- 2 Dec 2000, 04:34 GMT

As a direct result of the doc's actions people were badly injured and some even died. As a direct result of Tom's actions, no one was injured or died. I am not saying that what Tom did was right. I am simply saying that the results from what the doc did were far worse. If Tom's actions warranted 30 days in the brig and a demotion, the doc's actions warrant at least that. I know if I had been injured because a supposed friend gave away my protection to someone who was shooting at me, I wouldn't be very happy. I would certainly want my society to punish the person that was responsible for my injury. In fact, that is what our society does all the time.

I'm done now

Shadda, agreeing to disagree, again. I promise I won't post any more on the subject.

I agree with Mulgrew on this one.
Shadda -- 2 Dec 2000, 04:57 GMT

In 30 Days, didn't we have lots of Tom, while in solitary, being very introspective with no one of his species to talk to? Or is the Golden Boy simply not important enough, or introspective enough to really feel anything. Are we to believe that he never gave it another thought? Are we to believe that every time he was called ensign instead of Lt. he didn't feel a thing? Are we to believe that he didn't get comments from others on the crew who still don't accept him? I have a feeling that that is not something so blithly tossed off. He was in essence punished for a year and a half. So, the doc is going to feel guilty for a while. Hummm, yeah, that sure sounds like parity to me.

Parity to what end? How about to keep him from doing it again. That was the argument for the severe punishment Tom got. I argued then and still say, that punishment does not deter a crime, but then it was Tom's first time out. This is the doc's, what 3rd time out. He has left Voyager or done damage to his program on several occasions. I detect a pattern here. Janeway, not Mulgrew, that's for sure, persists in not really curtailing his distructive behavior. He has injured people before, what's to say he won't do it again. He has proven over and over that he is not to be trusted. He has felt guilt before, that apparently doesn't stop him. Oh well, I suppose we can hope he has learned from this experience. But, past experience tells me he hasn't.

Shadda

Excellent Shadda, You got "more" of my drift the 2nd time around. Now, re: WWTN...(Oh david)
Deb47 -- 2 Dec 2000, 05:41 GMT

Before I return to the topic at hand, let me sneak in another "few" words about WWTN.

Its strange, I still remember how I found the book.

I was cooling my heels in the lounge during training, Aug 1986, and picked up an old New York Times section laying about. I flipped a few pages and was "struck" (No smart comments, david! ) by the photo of a woman in the obit section. It was a "1930ish" B&W glamour shot, and her gaze just arrested me. I had to read the obit, and was shocked to see mentioned thoughout it, the names of Isek Dinesin (sp?) and the recent Oscar contender (winner?)Movie: "Out of Africa".

The deceased woman grew up in Africa, and had many wonderful adventures, one of which I'd actually encountered before in my lady aviation books. She was the first PERSON (male or female) to fly the Atlantic SOLO... the "hard way"... east to west, against the headwinds. (Hence the name of the book. ) She also was a contemporary of the main characters in "Out Of Africa" and in fact was one of the minor characters in the movie. The obit mentioned this awesome autobiography which was a best seller in the 40's, and then went into "no-man's land."

In the early 80's, this "guy" was visiting a relative of Earnest Hemmingway's, and they were reading a bunch of letters Ernest had written the family over the years. One praised "this" book immensely, and so the guy went home and tried to find it. After great searching, he discovered an old copy in a Marin county library and "fell in love". He shopped it around for a new publisher, and it was re-released in 1983.

It hit the best seller list in 1984 and stayed there a while.

After reading this obit, I went out looking for this book, but to no avail. A few weeks later, I had to kill time while my car was being repaired, and found a nearby bookstore to browse.

As I entered, the manager was setting up a display of these green, large, paper back books, with this great B&W photo of a woman in her flying cap & goggles.

It was her.

I've never spent so much for a "paperback", (no pics either!)but I bought it immediately.

Whoa.

Shadda, david, its the kind of book you read slowly. You savor it, you digest it. Her writing style is fantastic, and the philosphy she espouses is quite heartwarming.

As Hemmingway said of it, "Did you read Beryl Markham's book, West With The Night? I knew her fairly well in Africa, and never would have suspected that she could and would put pen to paper except to write in her flyer's log book. As it is, she has written so well, and marvelously well, that I was completely ashamed of myself as I writer. I felt that I was simply a carpenter with words, picking up whatever was furnished on the job and nailing them together and sometimes making an okay pig pen. But [she] can write rings around all of us who consider ourselves writers..."

When I was done reading it... I was so shocked that this book was "lost" for so many years, that I went out and bought 2 more. I donated them to my high school library and my village library. I've lost count as to the number I've bought or instigated others to buy, once we went over 13.

It's a bloody wonderful book, even if the first 3 pages make you wonder "where" the heck she's going with this thing!

Oh... and after "I" bought the thing... I discovered it soon was BACK on the best seller list, and in fact stayed in the top 10 for over 80 (?) weeks.

Sigh.

(Love this book, can you tell? )

But, getting back on topic before Jules "growls" at me...

( Oh Jules, did I saw Beryl was "English"? Evidently she was quite scandalous too,,, but THAT never even makes it onto the page!)

... Janeway has "Anthropomorphized" the EMH into "something human"... but what "he's" become isn't "human", even if it "is/maybe" sentient.

Because Janeway can't yet "know" what he is, who he is... then she "can't" trust him to be "true" to our/her nature. Heck, he can't even be true to "his" nature, since he himself doesn't "know" what that nature "is".

Janeway is like the young girl running into the "unnatural" lion... how will he act? Tame? Or hungry?

(Loved that line... "...and he did not lie down again.)

D47

I am equating the "Doc's punishment" with "Worf's discommodation", Shadda...
Deb47 -- 2 Dec 2000, 05:58 GMT

...I am not suggesting that Tom was NOT introspective... but that "whatever" slings and arrows tossed at him by the odd crewman who lorded his demotion over him... it was nothing compared to what Worf lost in the discommodation.

And, in fact, what Worf lost was even a magnitude "less" than what the Doc lost because it remained possible that the discommadation would be lifted when the Durass family was exposed. (Which, in effect, is what happened a season or two later.) The Doc doesn't "know" if he'll ever be reacquainted with another sentient hologram.

OTOH...I'm interested in what other eps you feel he's proved himself "not to be trusted"?

D47

Did you know that memory loss was a steady process
Shadda -- 2 Dec 2000, 06:15 GMT

It starts at around 20 then in a rather steady decline inches down every year. The problem is that when you reach, say 50, it becomes more noticable Yes, anthropomorphize thank you.

I can't wait to find that book. It sounds like something my sister would love too. There was an article about her, Beryl Markham, in "Victoria" magazine a few months ago. She lead a very interesting life, especially considering the times in which she lived. She definately lived life on her own terms.

Okay, we don't know yet what the nature of the doc is. He doesn't either. I see your point. We have seen him make bad decisions on more then one occasion though. Perhaps, he needs to take a page from Tom's book and consider seeking redemption as an option. He does have a pattern of bailing on Voyager when it suits him. Since it has happened several times, it is looking a lot like his nature to me. But it probably depends more on who is writing the episode then anything!

Shadda

Deb, what are you doing still up
Shadda -- 2 Dec 2000, 06:56 GMT

Isn't it like really late where you are? I was channeling my niece there. I wish you could use tone inflection on these things.

What Worf did was noble. He gave up a lot for a greater good. I wish Voyager would do shows like that In the end it did work out for him. What did the doc lose? He did lose the company of beings that were more like him then the organics. He still has his friends, if they don't start throwing stones at him when they see him again He is still able to continue the only existence he has known up to now. The existance that has allowed him to become "sentient". What about his family? What about that wife and child he programed for himself. Does he grant them the same privileges, the same "sentience" he wants granted to himself?

About the trust thing. My point was that the doc has tinkered with his program, even though it has caused great