The Coffee Nebula Board is for the discussion of Star Trek: Voyager and other sci-fi/cult shows. This is its Archive of episode discussions, top ten lists, fan fiction, and other miscellaneous musings.
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"Who would have thought that this eclectic group of voyagers could actually become a family. Starfleet, Maquis, Klingon, Talaxian, hologram, Borg... even Mr Paris." |
NightingaleNightingale: Florence, not the bird First, yes, I know that posting the episode discussion area heading is not my job, but I wanted to make a post about the episode and it wasn't up yet. I hope whoever usually does that job will forgive me for stepping into their territory. Second, thanks to the previous owners of my home who installed a C-band satellite dish, I have already seen Nightingale. The UPN satellite feed to Canada: T5 Channel 15, 5 pm Tuesday. And, joy of joys, it is the unadulterated, commercial free version. So, if you really don't want to be spoiled, stop reading this, because I'm about to start commenting on the episode. I'll leave a little space so you can get out without having accidently seen anything. S P A C E The good news: this episode wasn't bad. The bad news: it wasn't all that good, either. If we ever get that "waffle" icon, this episode would be one to deserve it. You all know I've been rather unhappy with season 7 thus far. I have liked some episodes, but most have been big disappointments. I was looking forward to the November sweeps to provide an episode that would make me sit up and say,"Oh yeah, this is why I love Voyager!" Well, Nightingale was the last chance, and it wasn't that kind of episode. This is not to say that Nightingale didn't have its good points. Once again, the crew are portrayed as good people, the kind of folks you would enjoy working and socializing with, the kind of people you like. So, I'm happy about that. And, even though the episode was mostly a Harry/Seven episode, Neelix, B'Elanna, and Icheb got good screen time and Tom, the Doc, and Janeway each had at least one substantial scene. Again, I'm happy to get that good ensemble feel. As others have pointed out about previous episodes, TPTB must be ticking off a list of fan gripes this season. The "Why is Harry still an ensign?" question was addressed and we got to see Voyager taking a break for some much needed maintenance. In fact, I even liked this week's two AOTW. I thought their behaviors and situations were believable and I liked the way that neither race was portrayed as entirely good or bad. I could understand the motivations for all their actions. As for the bad, there were a number of things I didn't like about this episode. For one thing, Icheb is walking entirely too close to the Wesley Crusher line for my tastes. I also disliked the fact that Harry was such an idiot about his "first command." He has, as he himself pointed out, been on Voyager for almost 7 years and would be a Lt. or Lt. Commander now if back home. He should not have been quite so "green" about commanding the Nightingale. Neither was I thrilled with Seven giving Harry advice about interacting with "his" crew and commanding "his" ship. It just didn't feel right to me. I think Harry could have been written a good bit smarter in his command without substantially affecting the outcome and course of action. Just two more nits and I'll quit: Harry was entirely too trusting of his AOTW. Come on, Harry, there were lots of obvious questions you never asked. And I hate the way the Tom/B'Elanna relationship is being portrayed. I could type another page on that, but I've got to get to work, so you are spared. One point of confusion: In the trailers for Nightingale, didn't we see a battered and battle-scarred Voyager? Well, that wasn't in this episode. Am I just totally confused about this? Vickie No you're not totally confused. Vicki asked: "One point of confusion: In the trailers for Nightingale, didn't we see a battered and battle-scarred Voyager? Well, that wasn't in this episode. Am I just totally confused about this?" That shot of a battered Voyager came from "Year of Hell". Downloading the trailer onto my computer, I managed to freeze-frame that shot, and I was correct that it's from "Year of Hell". Deck 5 is totally blown-away as seen in "YoH". I haven't seen the episode... just saw something Vickie said that I wanted to comment on. You all know I've been rather unhappy with season 7 thus far. I have liked some episodes, but most have been big disappointments. I'm glad to discover I am not the only one disappointed with this season so far. I've actually just about quit watching. And the epsides I have seen have greatly disappointed me. For Voyager's last season I was expecting more. And I hate the way the Tom/B'Elanna relationship is being portrayed. Ditto. Of course most everyone knows how I feel about P/T in general, but what get's me is Drive had a good chance in changing my mind, but that quickie ending (I'm not talking about the missing wedding) with B'Elanna just deciding that she was wrong and marrying him. If they had simply went deeper into this and shown more from Tom than they did, this would have went a long way in changing my mind. And now it's like they are married and everythings fine and couldn't be better between them. That's not to say that I can't pick apart the P/T stuff I've seen from this season, but quite frankly P/T is just boring this season. At least before there was lots of juicy things to gripe about between them (and as I said there still are just not enough to move me to gripping) they are just a boring couple now. Nothing remarkable either way. At least not to me. Hey VIckie, I'd like to hear your opinions on P/T (nim) nim There wasn't any PT in Nightingale. [nim] Captain Kim was not bad. General ramblings: I liked the special effects of Voyager on surface but they overdid it until the phoniness of CGI showed too clearly. Janeway came across poorly when she was nagging B'Elanna about the repairs. Her snide remark about Icheb getting back them on schedule was nasty. It sounded likes she is the problem, not B'Elanna; the ship is run down. Icheb was quite the Wesley here; he solves problems no one else could fix, "We're back on schedule thanks to you!" Ick. Icheb's crush on B'Elanna was pretty corny but luckily the actor who plays Icheb playing somewhat tongue-in-cheek and made it tolerable and even a little funny. I liked seeing Kim handle the job of command here. I do have a problem with the situation of breaking Federation law so cavalierly. Kim violates clear law that he knew and quoted. I didn't buy Kim's argument to Janeway or Janeway's response. Kim brought up the Vaadwar but that case shows the argument to be foolish. Janeway helped the wrong people there because she acted without bothering to find the truth of the other side Nit: Kim knows how to operate alien tech by looking at it for 50 milliseconds. I did like the story addressing of promotion situation and Kim's desire to have a temporary yet real command. Also liked his desire to be more than Tom's 2nd banana The "Plomek soup. And make sure it's hot!" scene was good. Kim had some command presence to my surprise. I enjoyed Seven's subtle ridicule of Harry's pretensions and her advice to him about command. She was quite the second officer and even a mentor to Kim. I found her lesson that Harry should emulate Janeway by not doing every one's job very funny. Nit: Harry has a saxophone? What happened to his clarinet? Harry's attempt to order the ship back was laughable. His decision to help them later is questionable. Again he was making an important decision based on little knowledge. He only ever listened to their side and never investigated. Why didn't Janeway have the Doc check out the "vaccines"? The story setup is rather clumsy in my opinion but overall the story was strong. Some decent action in the plot. Good acting by all of the guest stars. Good to see Ron Glass again - I haven't seen much of him since his Barney Miller days. And Harry, Seven, and Neelix were very good here. This was one of the more believable Harry Kim stories. And I liked seeing a slightly different (and wiser) side of Seven. Re: Nightingale : Almost Great! Since i generally lke this episode, let me begin with what i DID like. Garrett Wang has really grown as actor. He can now w/out difficulty carry an episode. Throughout Nightingale, he gives a wonderfully nuanced and alert performance. He's great in the scenes with Neelix in the Mess Hall--as Neelix forces him to act Captainly--and he's good with Seven and the alien crew. The episode does a very good job of maintaining tension and complexity throughout--like Dragon's Teeth, it makes painfully real the difficulties of choosing one side in a conflict... the views of moored, making-repairs VOY are terrific indeed...but the standout of this ep is its lovely, sparkiling B Plot--Icheb and B'Ellana, complemented by Doc and Paris, are a superb comedy team! I laughed out loud and happily at several points throughout the "courtship," which i happily saw in nascent form during the Science Fair sequence of Child's Play, when B'Elanna avidly asked Icheb how he got some thingamajig to function. Bravo! Here's the problem with Nightingale and w/S7--it lacks a final resonance, an oomph, a punch--that the B Plot is the highlight says something about the lack of urgency, even pathos, in this ep. Harry comes out too unscathed from the experience. there's just not enough trauma. Though it's maligned often and isnt exactly a great episode, The Disease is more emotionally affecting than Nightingale, because it's unafraid to show the pain of decisions emotionally made. Imperfection remains the one great episode of S7 so far, precisely because it's emotionally intense and complex. Still, Nightingale is a definite winner. And VOY remains the most pleasurable of all trek shows. david g This bird didn't fly I too am not that thrilled about Season 7. Very mediocre. I still tape every episode, and I have not been moved ONCE to rewatch a single episode, choosing instead to watch seasons 1-3 and 5-6 (I am not a big fan of season 4 either). ANYWAY, here are my gripes. Why oh why oh why did Harry have to completely screw up his first camptaincy?? I thought this was going to be an episode where Harry does great commanding a ship, and honestly has to decide whether he wants to stay with these people (maybe even throw in a love interest) or return to Voyager. Voyager as the only family he's had for 6 years, his loyalties to Janeway and Paris and others, versus the chance to COMMAND a ship and grow, etc... But TPTB have never gotten episodes like this quite right, the Think Tank comes to mind, where there is no sense that Seven is facing a true choice. Although there is Virtuoso, I loved that episode. Instead, we get, "Harry is so wimpy he flips under pressure and THAT's why he is still an ensign." Even though he eventually saved the day, he didn't do so with much grace. And I HATED Seven being the self-righteous advisor. Neelix would have been so much better, offering advice without being so d***ed superior about it. I did like some scenes, the Janeway-Harry scene - Harry was very good in this scene, earnest but not rediculous, understated but still passionate. I liked the initial B'Elanna Icheb scenes, although I really cringed all through his "we have to stop seeing each other" speech. Why oh why oh why did they have to make him so DAFT about this?? Someone so analytical, automatically jumping to conclusions about pulse rates etc??? Puh-lease. It was just torture to watch. I am really really glad Janeway came out of hibernation though. OH well, happy thanksgiving everyone - Nightingale just misses greatness.... ...and for this season that is pretty frikken good! First of all i HAVE to give a shout out to Foundation Imaging! By GOD that opening shot of Voyager being repared was amazing! And the great shots of the cloaked Nightingale going to warp was sweet. Seven managed to not be annoying which is a first since the beginning of S6, Harry had a bit of Captain in him but he also had Janeway in him which wasn't so good and Icheb wasn't a brat and yet he became Wesley later on. The Good : Seven as First Officer. I liked it, lets space Chakotay and make it official please! Harry gets some spine! The FX, the FX the FX the FX! WooHooo! Icheb i didn't want to space him half the time! The Bad Icheb but i DID want to space him for becoming Wesley frelling Crusher!! Seven was a great FO and what she said about being Captain was right, BUT why doesn't she confront JANEWAY about not delagating, hmmmm? The engine rooms life support fails BUT there isn't a breach and Redshirt Girl dies in less then 3 minutes? I hate Voyager fights. Why do we ALWAYS wave a magic technobabble wand? Why not have a real DS9/TWOK battle? _______ Bottom line, while it had some rough spots compared to the rest of the season save CC this wa svery good. I'll give it a B. Eric Re: Captain Kim was so, so... Given that he's had plenty of experience in command on the night shift Harry shouldn't have been so naive in commanding the Nightingale. And I agree about the scene where he poorly tried to off-set a mutiny (he acted as though he was fresh out of SF). However, I was pleased to see TPTB finally address the issue of the Six-Year-Ensign... though, I wonder whether Janeway will ever cut the kid some slack, or is she determined to uphold his punishment for having an illicit affair with AOTW? I'm really, REALLY tied of TPTB constantly showcasing Seven as the voice of reason--how did these people survive the three years before the all mighty borg queen arrive? Also the guest stars were better than those in past episodes. Over all, a plus for Voyager's Season Seven... a season that has so far seen its fare share of minuses. This ship took flight I thought that this was a surprisingly good episode from such a modest concept. I had low expectations about a show based on Kim's desire to have a command of his own but it actually worked. Garrett Wang gave a good performance and we saw Kim and Seven acting more intelligently together-- both apart and as a team than we have in awhile. It was nice to see the ship on a planet again even though for my money it's just not the same when no one gets to utter "Blue Alert!" The guest actors were all pretty good. This was one episode where I was disappointed that the stock alien girl didn't get more to do-- that's one lab assistant I wouldn't mind seeing more of. The Icheb and B'Elanna subplot was cute and well acted by Manu Intiraymi. Anyway, not much to say on this episode. Happily, I got a positive feeling from it, but it doesn't really demand too much discussion. Jason Its a bird...its a plane...its Captain HARRY KIM! Mild manner ensign... Buster Kinkaid... spends his days in quiet drudgery, keeping his nose clean and following orders... BUT by NIGHT he's... CAPTAIN KIM!!!!!!!!! Fearless starfleet savior, babe magnet and all around wonder officer.
I laughed last night. Barb brought the kids over last night and she laughed. My brother, who only watched star trek when he's home for the holidays even laughed. Poor Harry! What I'm trying to say is... "its NOT just me..." My brother Mike even drew parallels between Harry and his new supervisor at work... "Let your people DO their jobs!" I smiled at the "difference" between Janeway's command last night and Kim's. Janeway was so ready to accept "all the help she could get" that she took Echeb/Icheb off courrier duty and assigned him TO B'Elanna's dept. Harry, on the other hand, wouldn't even let the junior officer make course corrections by himself! I agree with Eric's opinion of the FX last night... to see Voyager "down on the planet" for major overhauls was sooooo cool... not to mention timely. Heck, this ship has 7 years and 45,000 light years on it by now... time to do a little maintenance... AND.... to quote Tom Paris in "Inside Man"... "This is VOYAGER, Harry..." Things are about to go horribly wrong! (Well... not as horribly wrong as the UPN promo would have us believe. "Now class, repeat after me... I will not believe another UPN Promo again... I will not believe another..." I really enjoyed the crew interaction this week. I loved "Captain" Janeway trying to get the job done "before" B'Elanna's estimate. (Shades of continuity?) Recalling that first season ep where Janeway "assumed" B'Elanna padded her repair estimates like "all" (Scotty, Obrien) good starfleet engineers are wont to do. I loved B'Elanna "treating" Janeway like "all" good starfleet engineers (Scotty)... "I cannot I loved the b story of Icheb and B'Elanna. At first, I saw the "B'Elanna" story going something along the lines of... "When the Cat's away (Seven) the mice (Icheb/BLT) will play". Yep, there goes B'Elanna, subverting Seven's efficient parenting strategies at the first chance she gets. By the time Seven comes back, Icheb will no longer be picking up his underwear and placing it in the recycler each night. Boy... was I wrong! I'm STILL not sure if Icheb has the "hots" for B'Elanna... or if he just thinks ... well... you who've watched it KNOW what he thinks. As Nina (?) said that week... sometimes there's just no reasoning with (a certain) mindset. B'Elanna knows, after working with Seven all these years, that sometimes there's just NO reasoning with a Borg Belief... just wink at it and "move on". Oh.... I just wish I was a fly on the wall in the Paris/Torres quarters that night, when they go over their days... "SO, anything exciting happen to you today?" "Well... I'm still trying to get over the fact that Icheb broke off our affair, before I even knew we were having one." I can understand the sentiment that "This is the final year of Voyager, so every ep should be a rooting tooting make them hollar for more slam bang ep." But as I said recently... I'm enjoying this season because it IS the "final" season. Its acting as a bookend to so many things that have gone before... or as someone above has said... TPTB are ticking off the "fan complaint" list. Voyager needing repairs... Harry being the worlds oldest ensign (except for Ensign Wildman... and every other Ensign on board this ship!) I'm enjoying it for the "growth" I'm seeing in different characters. Janeway letting B'Elanna DO her job as she sees fit. B'Elanna not dropkicking poor mistaken Icheb into next week. Tom reaching out to "play" with Icheb. Neelix trying to "Guinan" Harry into "thinking" like a Captain. Seven, trying to stand by and "let" Harry make his mistakes... and when he can't see the flipping forest for the trees, she's there with a chainsaw to do some selective pruning. She's made great strides, hasn't she, since her days of running the Omega project and renaming all her crew with Borg designations. And Harry... able to admit to Mama Janeway his fondest dreams and desires, to admit to Tom that as much fun as he is... "No-one" likes to play the sidekick ALL the time, to admit to himself that Seven DOES have a point when it comes to supervising people, to admit to Neelix that he "doesn't" know how to be a starfleet captain.... YET! Yes, Voyager has learned YET AGAIN about the problems of embroiling themselves in another's conflict. And yet, wasn't Harry Right? Didn't he do the same thing Janeway would have done? Didn't he do the same thing "you" would have done? Save the "ship in distress"? (Koybyashi Maru, anyone?) The road to He!! is paved with good intentions, and the mark of a "Good Captain" isn't just the ability to send a fellow officer to her death in the engine room... it also includes that second sight to be able to determine "which" ship in distress we should walk away from, and which we should try to save. Harry, God Bless him... is still JUST a junior officer... whether he's an Ensign or a Lt Commander. He's allowed to "not know" the right answers ALL the time, allowed to make mistakes, allowed to LEARN. Heck, isn't that what each of our crewmates have been doing for the last 7 years? Learning to be better people? To be better Officers? Listen guys, got to get back to the prep for the festivities... Have a Happy Thanksgiving if you celebrate it. Oh... And in case anyone's wondering... I'm thankful for many things this year... And one of them is Voyager. The other is my Christmas Present Mike brought me this year, and that my nephew loaded onto the Computer. Now I'm just waiting for my nephew to go HOME so I can start to play "Elite Force". He claims its a "hot" game... and he doesn't watch Star Trek anymore!
D47 Captain Kim to the bridge OK, let's see if I can sneak in and post this message. Can't seem to find the backup board. I liked it. Good episode. Harry did a good job, overall, on his first command. Seems Janeway has been neglegent in assigning this young man tasks and duties. He obviously hasn't been in command of any mission yet, not even an away team. Must take our captain to task on that oversight. Seven was a good, if transparent, first officer. Of course you expected her to give Harry his pep talk/ review. Still, made for a good story. The revelation about the missing vaccine didn't hold well to me. You mean the Doc and Voyager didn't ask to look at the vaccine before transporting it? Oh, come on. In any other episode, they would have examined it and made it better. And what is this big animosity with holograms, or photonics all of a sudden? This week, next week and haven't we had one previously? Oh yeah, Last weeks. Are they building up to next week? If so, they could have done a better job explaining it. Voyager down for repairs on a planet! About 4 years too late but still, another idea bandied about on this DB finally comes to the small screen. Three cheers for us! We should all be Voyager writers. Echeb's infatuation was interesting. A little trite and done before. My biggest complaint with him is that he's becomming a Wunderkind. He needs to pull back or I'm going to be the first one to shove him into the airlock, or put him on the shuttle along with Wesley. Good episode, boardering on Excellent. Definitely not Remarkable or Amazing though. Shawnster I agree with Deb, Jason, Shawnster on this ep--but any predictions for Flesh and Blood? I fear, like Jason, that this will be a flaccid big two hour VOY movie--w/out Braga, this big epic may be hollow and unexciting. That's my fear. Braga as we ALL know has his myriad flaws--but one of his gifts has always been pacing and action-complexity--something I miss from this year, despite my real appreciation for the warm glow given off by these S7 episodes. Much as i enjoyed the surprisingly deft Nightingale, it didnt have that ineffable oomph I was hoping for. david g No bets! The story is a DESCENT take-- and hm, did an episode about a charismatic, cult like leader trying to set up an idyllic society work there? Well-- no, not really. Also there is three writers involved in taking on different parts of this episode... that suggests it will be choppily written whereas Braga and Menosky had a unity of vision whenever they wrote in a partnership. Basically, all I am looking forward to in this episode are the visuals and seeing how it is directed. Jason Yeah, Deb, that was me on the "mindset" business. I liked it that B'Elanna suddenly realized (it seemed to me) how much she was going to hurt Icheb's pride if she insisted on MAKING him understand that she really, truly had no romantic interest in him. She let him have his fantasy (because that's just what it was, like almost any first crush), secure in her status as an adult and secure in her relationship with her spouse. I also liked it that she and Tom both had lines acknowledging their different extracurricular interests, which they don't regard as a problem. I've had difficulty believing P/T lately, but this episode did wonders for me in that department. Harry's naivete is legendary. Sure, he believed what his "new friends" told him! He got a large dose of reality therapy about his readiness to command, and he - er - assimilated it and grew as a result. A good episode. Not a stand-out one for me, but enjoyable. Small correction: Kim has commanded an away mission. What was the episode with the intelligent missile in it, the one that took over Doc's program? I'm too stuffed to think right now...my big Sis is one very fine cook. Prediction lots of 7, Doc & Janeway = BORING I don't know if any of you have seen the promotional material at Voyagersdelights. Anyway it strongly features Seven, and Hirogen. The other photo I saw was with Chakotay and Seven. And in the promo it looks B'Elanna gets injured so that SEven can take over engineeing. THe spoilers all point to a Janeway and Doc story. TPTB are getting smarter and not releasing info on SEven's involvement. One small bright side the Bajaron leader is actually attractive. Cause turkeys don't fly.... What happened to my original post? It's not showing up on my screen so I'm reposting my thoughts. Completely agree with Angela. 1. Harry was gullible, easily manipulated, a micrmanager and had a huge ego. As head of ops you think he would know how to delegate. I would think that the heads of Engineering, Security and Ops would actually supervise people. Everything he was doing was about and for him. I am sorry but a good leader should know not to take or make things too personal. I have a major problem that he essentially has radically altered the balance of power in that area of space by permitting the introduction of valuable technology into the Kraylor society. If Living Witness was based on this epsiode, the Ansari would have much to blame VOY for. Seven gets Harry to complete the mission by working on his ego. You would think that after Dragon's Teeth she would have learned not to ionterfere with other societies. 2. I hated Seven being this great font of wisdom. Where did she learn all this? Not from Janeway and it's not the way Seven runs astrometrics -- just ask Tal Celeste. Seven was miscast in this episode like in Disease so she could be the insightful one. Neelix would have been a better choice. 3. Icheb-Torres. I liked the initial scene hated the final scene. It was too trite. Would it kill the PTB to actually show B'Elanna engaged in physical activity or doing her own thing off duty ON SCREEN. God knows we've seen enough of TOm's extracurricular activities on screen. This episode was mediocre on the low side. I really agreed with a lot of what O. Deus wrote at Trek Web. I've been agreeing with him a lot lately that's got me worried. Warhead. Of course! nim Nightingale Thoughts This seemed to me to be Harry's version of the TNG episode where Troi had to order Geordi, albeit a holographic version, to do something that was bound to get him killed to save the ship & the rest of its crew. Harry's had people die on missions with him (Jetal and Ballard) but not because he'd ordered them into a probably fatal situation. I hope for the sake of the Ops personnel he's less of a micro-manager in his usual supervisory job. As for Icheb, I'll give him the benefit of the doubt in the Wesley comparison, since whatever he did in the first engineering scene seemed to be more luck noticing whatever it was than boy engineering genius. And he generally seems to be a more typical teenager than Wesley, eating "nutritional supplements" that look a lot like junk food and getting a crush on one of his teachers. But if he's acting as messenger and doing other official work, shouldn't he have a combadge? Last week they'd just finished a maintenance layover, this week they're down on a planet doing major repairs while shuttles scout for supplies. Looks like TPTB are actually following through on the idea of the ship no longer being in such perfect shape. Warhead (NIM) But i for one am PANTING for some decent, central Janeway Stuff!.. lots of 7, Doc & Janeway = BORING Janeway hasnt yet had a single truly demanding ep--ok, except for Imperfection, but still.. if Flesh and Blood is a Janeway-a-thon, i'll be ecstatic. david g I'm going to try this here. This wasn't bad. If the intent was to show that Kim is not much of a natural leader, they nailed it. He just doesn't have that presence. He kind of shuffled between arrogance and ineptutide. He has learned something, I hope. I think the lack of rank advancement has probably hurt him. There is a lot more then just a name change that goes with a higher rank, it gives the person holding that rank more confidence. By not allowing Kim to ever hold a higher rank it has undermined his own feelings of competence. This is one of the reasons I think that Kim will never make it to Captain, even when they get back. Janeway has as much as told him he isn't competent to hold a higher rank. I liked the B story. I am very tired of "Borg Genusis" since I don't consider it an earned genusis or even a genetic genusis, it is an illegitimate genusis earned on the backs of many dead races. I know Icheb isn't at fault, but it makes me uncomfortable. B'Elanna was great here though, I loved her in the end when she realized she wasn't going to get through to him and if she did she would just embarrass him and hurt him. She chose the best path. I bet she and Tom have an interesting conversation about what went on. Gotta go finish making my pies. Shadda Okay, I misspelled genius about 14 times in the above post Boy, I should have read this before I posted it. I am having pie traumas today, or I should say oven traumas. That's no excuse for poor spelling but I'm looking for sympathy here Shadda And what about the away mission in... "Body and Soul"... where he and Seven were captured with the Doc? Or the Away mission with Ensign Jetral and the Doc, which led eventually to "Latent Image"... Or, the away mission where Ensign Ballard was Killed? Harry has been "in command" several times, under difficult circumstances. The difference here, was that he was in "command" of a crew that consisted of more than one or two other crewmembers. D47 lots of Janeway =boring. NOT!!!!!!! A Janeway-a-thon.... Thanks, david... I like that idea! D47 HOJ
I thought ALL Bajarons were attractive? Well, at least the females, of course--or is that Trek's steriotype? Shadda, at least you didn't spell it the way Jethro did in the Beverly hillbillies. Remember his line... "My name is Jethro Bodine... my initials are JB... That's "Boy Jenius" backwards!" He was the first one to make it to the 6th grade in his family, and it only took 12 years to do it. D47 Spell checkers are not us! Pixie, see my Admin message about running out of disk space on the server I think your original message was a victim of that, as was one of malcom's. It saved the headers in the indexes, but there clearly wasn't enough space to save the actual message as well at the time it was posted, so it got lost. One of the nice things about this board is that it allows me to rebuild the indexes when things get screwed up, so I was able to make the board consistent again... but unfortunately a lost message is a lost message. If you can recreate it again, feel free. (Happily it looks like some more disk space has now been freed up. I'll keep an eye on things, in case it becomes a problem again, but it looks like it's okay at the moment.) And you're right. Seven's never been that great at the insights, except on lessons that she's had to learn painfully herself. If you need a fount of wisdom, it probably ought to be Neelix... who at least has a lot of undocumented years and learned lessons prior to joining the crew that he can draw upon, rather than a known-quantity past life with the Borg. Besides, he doesn't get nearly enough screen time, and I like him, so I'd never complain about giving him more to do. Jules P/T in Nightingale I'm still in the throes of the traditional post-Thanksgiving dinner stupor, so I'm not sure I have either the coherence or the ambition to answer your question properly, Pixie, but here's a thought or two. What I specifically disliked about P/T in Nightingale were the "Men Are From Mars, Women Are From Venus" and the "Tom is just a big overgrown kid" implications of B'Elanna's and Tom's comments about their lesiure activities. I found B'Elanna's comments about how Tom doesn't like to do anything that doesn't involve driving or flying fast distressingly stereotypical and a bit condescending. I could have been listening to Jill talk about her husband Tim "The Tool Man" Taylor. Mind you, I don't at all object to the thought that Tom and B'Elanna have some separate lesiure activities. I certainly don't want to see them joined at the hip. On the other hand, they are newlyweds, they should still be in the honeymoon phase of marriage, shouldn't they? Vickie I don't think Kim is leader material. I'm not sure he would have been even if his career plans hadn't been torpedoed by an unexpected side trip to the Delta Quadrant. He's always seemed to be more follower than leader. He's Tom's sidekick. Everybody's junior officer made good. Even in "Non Sequitur", only a year into his Delta Quadrant stay, when he couldn't reasonably have expected to have advanced beyond his existing rank... and was suddenly given all those promotion chances and opportunities for ambition back, he couldn't take them. It was at least implied that the Yellowstone project could be his ticket to a lieutenant's pip. But not only did he opt for loyalty to his crew, friends and superiors alike, over personal ambition, but he was less than assertive when stranded there alone. He let Cosimo and Lasca push him around. He made the breakout attempt himself, but it wasn't until the alternate universe Tom joined forces with him that he looked in any way confident about it. And he always looks to other people for approval and reassurance that he's doing things right. He really isn't at all comfortable without a safety net... and for that he needs superior officers. That's just Harry, and I suspect he'd have been the same whether he'd ended up on Voyager or not. He has the dreams of high rank, he has the competence and skills to achieve it... but he doesn't really have the confidence to make it work. I figure that he's slated for a Commander's slot on a good ship, and that he'll serve a captain loyally and well, but never quite make it to that rank himself. Jules Ron Glass! Yes! Thanks, Terry. Every time he came on the screen, I said, "Who is that guy?" I knew that I should know him, I just couldn't place him. Vickie There have to be such officers, after all. Everyone can't become a captain, for heaven's sake! Good analysis of Harry, Jules. And as someone in one of my college accounting classes once observed, "Right now we ALL think we'll be C.P.A.'s someday. All of us won't be - but who's going to admit that now?" I think being a freshly minted ensign must be something like that, too. And coming back in "edit" to add - I'm so thankful I was NOT one of the kids in that class who wound up a Certified Public Accountant! I'd probably have a lot more money in the bank, but I would not be happier than I am today; of that I'm certain. I'm betting Harry in 20 or 30 years will say something similar about commanding a starship.... There's nothing wrong with not becoming a captain, after all Jim Kirk was not entirely happy once he made admiral until he managed to get his hands on a ship again, and even then he wasn't truly content until he managed to get himself demoted back to captain. I'm thinking that for other people the ceiling may be lower still. Sure, at this exact moment Harry's one of those with his nose pressed up against the glass of the window, looking longingly through at those on the other side, back in the Alpha Quadrant, doing what he thinks he wants for himself... rank, promotions, getting to captain in record time. But the grass isn't always greener on the other side of the fence, and once he's made it home, got a promotion or two under his belt, and had time to reflect, he may well find that it was his sense of urgency and feeling of missing out that was talking, rather than his sense of what was best for him. Jules While we're on the subject of Harry's promotion prospects... I was reminded of Dave Rogers' series of drabbles on the subject of hapless Harry's constant failures to get himself promoted: "The Examination for Lieutenant". They're cruel, but they're also hilarious. If you want to take a look, go here: http://www.geocities.com/SouthBeach/1380/fanfic.html#Drabbles and read your way through the entire series. Jules Although, Jules, Harry DID... tell Tom in Caretaker: "Nobody chooses my friends for me"--ie, even if others dont like you, I do. i generally agree with your assessment...but that line, and his perf at the end of Course: Oblivion, made me think there was more to Harry than Ensign Eager. btw, Jules, are you a Course:Oblivion fan, too? david g Those are wonderful, Jules! You do realize I laughed hard enough to scare the poor cats? spelling versus pies--no contest! Of *course* pies are more important. Hope your oven eventually behaved. tf Agreed. Spock was a great officer. (nim) nim Re: P/T in Nightingale Mind you, I don't at all object to the thought that Tom and B'Elanna have some separate lesiure activities. I certainly don't want to see them joined at the hip. On the other hand, they are newlyweds, they should still been the honeymoon phase of marriage, shouldn't they? I think we can assume that these Voyager episodes don't represent concurrent time, one day after another. Weeks perhaps have passed. Also, they've been all over the consoles since last season and before so I think they're well adjusted to one another. Heck, I'm pretty much joined at the hip and enjoying every moment of my best friend! Nothing wrong with that. But if he wants to crawl under the car and play, I'm gone. Mrs. Mac Sure, david Harry has a lot of good qualities. He has guts and bravery, and he's not afraid to be stubborn and stick to his principles if he feels he's right about something. He's loyal and true to his friends, works hard at his job, is fun to be around socially. He just has this tiny little perfectly understandable blind spot about where those qualities and his inherent personality are ultimately going to take him to on the promotion ladder. I think in terms of his abilities and sociability - captaincy can be lonely; just ask Janeway - he'd be better off and happier in the long run as someone's second in command, particularly if it happened to be a stimulating and challenging position in its own right. But it's only natural that at this stage in his life he won't yet have acquired the perspective to see that for himself. And maybe he never will. Or maybe he'll only ever see it in hindsight. But while he might actually make captain one day, I don't necessarily think that it'll make him as happy as he thinks it will. And just because he can stand up to Tom or B'Elanna when he wants to, and isn't entirely dominated by his friends, doesn't make him any less the sidekick. There are reasons why he plays Buster Kincaid to Tom's Captain Proton, and I don't think it's all a case of Tom asserting his author's rights to bag the fun part. If you ask me, the author in question has made some pretty intelligent choices in who and how he's cast the other participants in the Proton holonovel. Mostly they've been assigned parts that suit their abilities and personalities... with the exception of Seven as Constance Goodheart, and you've just got to conclude in that case that Tom gave in to the gleeful temptation to cast her against type. Way, way against type. Jules I was thinking of these... ...throughout the whole show--LOL! Dave's just the greatest. I don't think I'll add anything to what's been said on the ep (had a yucky headache Wednesday night, so I wasn't in the mood for reviewing), except to say I liked it. The ego shot was predictable, and when he was decorating his ready room for a three day journey, I have to say I cringed. Heck, even Kim was coming dangerously close to Wesleyism with his behavior, and if anything annoyed me in this ep, it's have been Harry's trip. Gag! --and thank heavens once again I was able to think on Dave's Drabbles. (snicker) But it was good to see Ensign Wonder get smart with the obviously lying AOTW, have his fall then turn around and do the right thing, as Harry unfailingly does. It was, once again, a good learning experience for him. I don't think I had as much problem (believe it or not) with Seven's advising him: She'd been watching Janeway for a while, and while an unpredictable model, Seven did have some base to work from. Besides, it's in her character to say her mind when someone's floundering. And if anyone might slap some sense into Harry, it'd nicely be the one who literally beat the cr@p out of him during her first days on Voyager. I agree with whoever said the ensemble feel (which I think has been around nicely this season) was nice, and I enjoyed the b-plot with Icheb a lot. B'Elanna did handle that beautifully--and meanwhile I was laughing my @ss off. But I think funnier still was Tom's unwitting "challenge." BWAhahaha! The look on Icheb's face did it for me. Poor little snarp! On Wesley syndrome in Icheb...Er, well, if Icheb was in every episode with such honors, I'd be screaming in agony, but he's enough of a "spice" to be a nice diversion. He doesn't bother me...yet. So, Nightingale was a good ep. Nothing that made me stand up and shout, but an enjoyable hour that I'll watch again. Thanks for the words of encouragement As for the oven, after 18 years, it is cooking hotter on one side then it is on the other. I put two pies in at the same time and one took 30 minutes longer to cook then the other one. They turned out great though, got lots of compliments, and the best compliment of all, they all got eaten. And Deb, yes Jethro, loved him. He was a cutie, and such a jenius Shadda Perhaps that's why he attached himself to Tom Tom has none of the ambition that Harry has, but all of the ability that Harry doesn't. Tom is a far more natural leader. He takes over naturally and easily. (That is my theory as to why he and his father fight, his father sees what he could achieve and it frustrates him that Tom doesn't want it nothing makes a parent crazier then a child that won't live up to his/her potential.) He hasn't had a chance to show those abilities much since the 3rd season, but in UZ2 when he had the bridge there was no lack of confidence as he called for red alert and battlestations. His voice went down, not up. When Harry is suddenly in charge, his voice goes up, a real sign of insecurity. There is a great need for good Commanders, Harry is perfect for the job. When he gets back, as I said before, I think that's as far as he will go. There is no shame or dishonor in that, in fact, it is a real achievment for which I would hope he would be proud. Shadda Me too D'Alaire! I couldn't stop thinking about them and am waiting in anticipation for the next one. Yes, Jules, they are a hoot. Poor Harry, and I like him too. Shadda There is only one captain. At least per ship. If there were more, the problem comes when someone has to "make the call." The ship doesn't run without a crew and though it is a cliche, "the captain is only as good as it's crew." After all a cliche becomes such because it gets repeated enough that people start to believe it. Roxanne Re: Although, Jules, Harry DID... I had a problem with the ending in Course: Oblivian, and not because the ship blew up without anyone knowing about it. Having Harry as the last one standing was too predictible. Having Harry sitting in the Captains chair at the end was not a surprise. The ironic ending would have been Tom sitting in the Captains chair. He was the one to first embrace their true nature. He was the one who lost the most. He was the one who wanted to die the most. To have him the last one still alive, the one with the least to live for, would have been very poignant. I would also have had him not send the message in the end, not just have it not make it. Seven could have wanted to send it, and he could have said, no, we will die with our dignity intact, not as a ship of fools. But this is a Harry thread, so I digress, sorry. As Jules said, Harry is quite capable of being assertive on occasion, but it isn't in his nature to be assertive. He does hold his own, on occasion, with his to very assertive friends Tom and B'Elanna but he is generally the peacemaker. That is a vital role in life. Shadda Re: Pixie, see my Admin message about running out of disk space on the server My original response to the episode got one of those "The Web is busy, and can't connect" messages, Jules...is that what you're talking about? It really annoyed me, because it was a rather long message...wasn't this one of the reasons we moved here? Mindy :disagree--NIGHTINGALE was tone-deaf I'm feeling grumpy right now, because my first message, which was much longer than this and spelled out all the reasons I didn't like this episode, was unable to be posted because I got one of those "the web is too busy to connect" messages, and I lost the whole thing...so forgive me if I'm not my normally chipper self *wink* This episode was one big yawn for me. Nothing original. Another AOTW not to care about when Harry in command would have worked SO much better on Voyager, seeing him interact with the crew...another poor rewriting of the Prime Directive to suit the lazy writers who seem to have picked up a lot of bad habits from Braga...the obviousness of the Nightingale's crew not being what they said they were...Harry's consistently dumb, naieve and immature behavior only indicates that he is NOT ready for command, or even a promotion...lots of things, but right now I'm too annoyed about losing my original post to go into it much...except to say... I think the B-story, about Icheb's crush and misreading of B'lanna would have made a much more fun, interesting and comical story, considering the idea and the actors involved...Pixie, this could have been a great stand-out episode for Dawson/B'lanna. Oh, well. Mindy Re: P/T in Nightingale Amen, Vickie! Just another reason why I am basically giving up on expecting anything from VOYAGER besides a nice little hour in front of the boob-tube... I think it reflects the immaturity of the writing/creative staff, i.e., their inability to understand grown-up relationships, and that men and women are from the same planet, and just because one likes to race cars...which, by the way, demands a TREMENDOUS amount of physical strength and mental skill...and the other likes to climb mountains...also incredibly demanding on body and mind...doesn't mean they go around disparaging each other's interests. I give up. Mindy Re: Captain Kim was not bad...sorry, Terry, he was incredibly NAIEVE!!!!. ...not to mention IMMATURE! His crying to Janeway about not sending a ranking officer along with him was like a child whining, "it's my toy, you can't play with it!" Janeway could have sent Tom along with orders to Tom that Harry was in command of this mission, y'know... And c'mon, the guy's been in the Delta quadrant for six going on seven years now, and he has been in command, if "only on the night shift"...and actually, there can be more responsiblity then when there's a graveyard crew on...and an emergency happens...I'm talking from experience when working the night shift in charge of the OR...he should be a little bit more aware of how to lead people, donch'a think? He acted more like a first-year cadet than an experienced bridge officer, junior or not! Seven should have spanked him and told him to grow up!!!! Grumpy Mindy Difference: This one meant more... ... and was longer than a couple of scenes. Thanks, Deb, for pointing all those out. But those were brief stints at command. Nothing really happened or the situation was taken out of his hands early. Or, in the case of Ballard and Jetral, we didn't get to see much of it "on camera." Poor Harry, he gets the short end too much. Shawnster Re: P/T in Nightingale I didn't find the comments about Toms hobbies in the holodeck stereotypically male, just stereotypically TOM! We've seen him working on cars, playing captain Proton, he's much more inclined towards activities which make your heart race, while B'Elanna's interests lie elsewhere. I actually thought that they were portrayed nicely as a couple this week. Friendly jokes about the 'responsibilties' Tom has now as a married man, time spent following their own interests, they seem stable and content. Better than watching them fight over something stupid. As for honeymoon phase - they've been dating for four years they've already had their honeymoon! Andrea Deb, we are agreeing a lot this season aren't we? Overall, I enjoyed this episode, firstly because we had a Harry centric ep that didn't involve a love interest, it involved shi career. It addressed his lck of promotion and the fact that like we said before, promotions mean nothing on Voyager since there isn't a revolving door of crew to fill vacated positions. I liked shi arguement to Jacneway, he made his point without sounding like he was whining. I know several people have commented that he should have handeld it better, he's had some expeirence. Yes he has, but like he said help was right down the hall, and these are people he knows, people who won't think less of him if he makes a mistake, tease him mercilessly - sure, but not think he's less of a man. What I think the actor pulled off beautifully was his ease with all this stuff while acting as an ensign, but suddenly in the reality of commanding this situation he's not quite sure. It's a whole new ball park when it's real. I like the fact that that seems to be why Harry reacted badly, there was no safety net and he was taking himself far too seriously. All in all i liked this ep, the plot was serious with a truly cute subplot to break things up - I loved B'Elanna break up scene We moved here because VantageNet had bugs coming out of every page And it had a flaky server. Still has, as a matter of fact, since it vanished from underneath me this afternoon when I was doing some tidying up of old messages on the VantageNet board. I guess at least we know now that it wasn't us that was overloading it to breaking point! This server's not perfect. But when it does go down, it tends to come back within the hour. When VantageNet went down, it wasn't unknown for it to be out for a day or so. Neither one's perfect... but at least here we have more control over our environment and don't have to worry about the software as well. At the time we moved here I warned folks that the server we're now running on is still under test conditions, and as such the service providers don't guarantee uptime. That's why I still have a backup server in place, on a different server here. As time goes on, I hope those periodic downtimes should disappear. Or at least reduce. But you'll never get a perfect 100% availability unless you're prepared to pay vast sums of money for it... and the sort of facilities I'm being offered here would cost me several hundred pounds if I purchased them through my ISP. Worth a little downtime, don't you think? On the other hand, if anyone knows of somewhere that offers 20 Mb of webspace, allows the running of perl and PHP CGI scripts, and doesn't expect you to display ads all over the page... drop me a line with the address. But I doubt you'll find one. If it existed, there wouldn't be quite so many Americans, Australians and assorted Europeans clamouring to sign up for accounts on this UK based webspace provider. Incidentally, the problem you describe sounds more like a router problem than a server thing. Unfortunately, they happen... the internet is just one big network of interlinked wires, and if one or more of them go down, your message has to find another way around to its destination. And sometimes, if too many people are trying to go the same way, you get a traffic jam. If you do get something like that though... have you ever tried hitting the back button on your browser to return to the message you failed to post and then just cutting and pasting the contents into Word or Notepad so that you can use them again later on? It's always worked for me. Jules I kind of like the YOH one myself. "You say that one pip takes as much energy to replicate as a cup of coffee? I never knew that." Re: There's nothing wrong with not becoming a captain, after all I agree that Kim isn't likely to become a Starship Captain. However, I can see him eventually earning Captain's rank, but in a HQ staff job. Captain of a Starship may be the goal of most officers, but only a few achieve it. In reality there are probably a lot more Commanders and Captains in staff jobs, running repair and research facilities, etc. than commanding from a ship's bridge. Totally Meanwhile, Baktag has duct-taped the dead horse to the very far corner of the rear closet, burying it with Compaq Boxes, paperbacks of Richardson and his secret stash of Daisyland Decaf coffee. Seeing no parts of the dead horse, he sighs with a little relief, even if he knows the mistress will find it somehow, someday...
Cap'n Kim was used to issuing orders to a Starfleet crew In an old and established organization like Starfleet, backed by all the tradition and power of the Federation and staffed by mostly enthusiastic volunteers, just wearing an officer's uniform is enough to make one's orders obeyed without much question. I guess Harry never learned from Janeway's experience with the Maquis that being a Starfleet officer means little to a non-Starfleet crew. Paralleling the lawyers' rule: "Never ask a question in open court to which you don't already know the answer", I would offer the rule for maintaining an officer's authority: "Never issue a order which won't be obeyed." Sheesh, Shadda! You just keep nailing it! Totally, totally agreed. --And an excellent analysis. I really like how you put that. Really liked your review AC--i agree with you. NIM Heck, Terry... even in my CIVILIAN supervisory position, I remember following that one religiously while establishing my authority! Gee, thanks D'Alaire, we are apparently on the same page, so to speak I know, I know... its glass half empty and glass half full this time. I didn't see B'Elanna's remarks about Tom's activities as disparaging... just "realistic"... and I liked the fact that "just" because they are married... they DON'T have to be "joined at the hip" all the time. Andrea... you made a good point that these "2" have been together for 4 years... and in a "confined" space (Voyager). They don't have to spend every minute of every day with each other, and its nice to see that "each" have continued to be their own person. At least, in the arena of entertainments. (I loved Mrs Mac's post about "disappearing" whenever her hubby starts to crawl under the car... I suspect there are a few hobbies she likes that make him to "similar" things. D47 Re: Deb, we are agreeing a lot ? Andrea, like I told Diane a few weeks ago... I think I'll "stand over here by you" when it comes to posting my "gee, I liked it" reviews. Sigh. Some weeks I feel like I should present myself to a voyageraholics meeting... "Hi, my name is D47, and I'm addicted Voyager". support group: "GASP!" D47: Oh... since season one's Caretaker, right through to season 7." Support group: D47: "Yes" Support group: D47 is seen leaving the room, asking aimlessly where the mermaids stand. -----------------------------------------
D47 Re: We moved here because VantageNet had bugs coming out of every page Terry told me about Notepad yesterday, Jules. But thanks for instructing me!!! Guess I'm just getting old and grumpy. Forgive me if I got under your skin. Mindy Throw me in with those of us who feel there's no need for Harry to become a Captain I think Jules and Nina make excellent sense. Like Jules, I just don't see Harry's forte as being a leader in the sense of being Captain...this does not mean that he can't rise to become a Commander in Operations, however. I just had a thought...it takes some of us (maybe most of us?) to figure out where we fit or what we really want to do with our lives as adults...sometimes it's called "being a late bloomer" (G.W. Bush apparently being one of those so labeled *wink*)...I think Harry Kim (at least as he has been portrayed through the years) will be one of those "late bloomers." He's still searching for his niche. I don't see him becoming a "career" First Officer, like Spock was for so many years, and Riker is on the Enterprise--remember that great scene in BOBW, when he talked to Deanna about how his ambitions had changed over the years?--but becoming, like Miles O'Brien, Chief of Operations or some other area of support...but I think it's going to take him a long time to figure it out for himself. Mindy No problem, Mindy I understand that it can be pretty frustrating to lose a message after you've spent time and effort composing it. Unfortunately, it's just one of those things. We've suffered from lost messages on every board we've posted on. At least this one doesn't delete them out of random acts of malice. Jules They are great! LOL!!!!! Support group
Andrea Running and hiding Actually I can completely sympathize on this one, Mrs. Mac - my fiancee is a mechanic by trade - he starts tinkering with a vehicle or watching those repair shows (Junkyard Wars comes to mind) and I head for the hills as fast as my feet will allow. Andrea Re: Running and hiding. LOL! There are benefits, gals. I'm fairly certain I can change the oil if I had to, and I KNOW Mac can follow my cooking directions and prepare leftovers without too much difficulty. So, somehow, a little bit of each other's activities does rubs off on the other. I'm sure B'Elanna will crawl under the hood of Tom's car someday, and Tom will tag along on one of B'Elanna's climbs. Ultimately, they'll find a few things they will enjoy doing together. Mrs. M I only have 2 questions about this episode? Question #1 has been asked over and over again, but I'm going to ask again: Why does each member of the crew have to look like a blithering idiot so Seven will look good? The only answer I have is that she can't look good without help. Roxanne Re: Running hiding and climbing In fact, if you're talking about climbing, you might remember that Tom is a climbing expert. See Blood Fever. Maybe B'Elanna would prefer not to have him around when she climbs because she's worried he might try to take over and ruin her enjoyment. Perhaps he might feel the same way about his 'tinkering' with engines since, while they are much more 'primitive' than B'Elanna is used to, he might still see them as her area of expertise, ie engineering. Nobody likes to be second-guessed by a so called expert while they're having fun... You've got a point there, Begonia. Remembering a one-time gentleman friend for whom I was afraid to prepare a meal, because he could do it much better and I was only too aware of that...! (No, I wouldn't feel that way now. But at 20 it mattered to me tremendously.) A lot of viewers, and I'll admit they include me, have been seeing a "guy stereotype" on the writers' part in giving Tom that garage program. You're giving me a different way to look at it - a way that I like. Thanks! Can't answer question two... But I do have a theory about question one. Why does everybody else have to fall by the wayside when carrying out their specialist functions on the ship, or even when utilising their main character quirks, so that Seven can step into the breach? I don't think it's anything to do with Borg pre-eminence, or even Seven's assertive personality... I think it's to do with the point in the show's life at which she was introduced. We're led to believe that Berman, Taylor and Piller had months of top secret meetings during which they thrashed out the details of the show's basic premise, and the mix of talents and personalities that they wanted for Voyager's crew. On the other hand, when the idea came up that it might be rather cool to introduce a Borg crewmember, I doubt nearly as much thought went into where and how she'd fit into the mix. So, instead of getting a crewmember who had a unique function and a distinct role to perform, as was the case with the original nine, we ended up with someone who - by nature of what she was rather than what they wanted her to do for the show - blurred the edges of the existing job roles, and thereby ended up stepping on everybody's toes. As the expert on that area of space, she took over Neelix's native guide role. Fair enough; he'd already overrun the bounds of his knowledge, and was happier as cook and morale officer anyway. On the other hand, as the expert on Borg technology, she took over B'Elanna's engineering wizard role, leaving her with just the everyday running of Engineering... and if all they wanted of B'Elanna was that, they'd have given the job to Carey in the first place. It was B'Elanna's ability to make leaps of logic and conjure solutions from them which was why she got the job, and she rarely gets the chance to display that talent any more. Tom, the Delaneys, and the rest of the Stellar Cartography department had their expertise pushed aside for the Astrometrics Lab. If it weren't for the Delaney's one onscreen appearance in "Thirty Days" I'd seriously doubt whether Stellar Cartography has even existed since season four. Unfortunately, she falls into a very easy and dangerous writing trap: that of making a character too powerful. It weakens everybody around them, because it makes them effectively impotent, and it doesn't actually do the all-powerful character any long term favours either, because it becomes increasingly more difficult to write any kind of challenging obstacle for them to overcome without it being blindingly obvious to the audience that you're cheating like crazy to get them into the situation in the first place. I can see the appeal of introducing a "humanised" Borg character, but I would have written Seven entirely differently. For starters, I'd have established early on that one of the consequences of being de-Borged is that you gradually become more human again in more than just appearance. In many ways Seven has been allowed to be written as if she were still Borg, apart from having a nice skin, hair, few visible implants, and a sense of humour and a mind of her own. But with so many implants removed, she should be weaker than she's often shown to be, even with her remaining cybernetics. Without a collective to tap into to refresh her memory and knowledge databanks, she should be finding it increasingly difficult to hold on to all of that vast knowledge that she brought with her... and it'd make for good drama to see her dealing with that, as she found that there were things she no longer knew. I find it hard to believe that a human brain can continue to retain all of that data, particularly the stuff that she's not been using but can call upon at the drop of a hat. And if her brain isn't still mostly human, even with probable implant enhancements, then is she? If the Borg cubicle is doing the work of re-energising her memory every night, then why hasn't anybody on the crew tapped into this vast Borg database they've got in their cargo bay and examined whether anyone else on the crew might learn it. In fact, why wasn't Seven's primary role on the ship made to be the giving of lessons on Borg technology to the entire Engineering staff to get them up to speed alongside her? Part of the problem, I think, is that she replaced Kes on the crew. And they're very different characters, with very different skills and uses. Kes has never really been completely satisfactorily replaced, either as medic or as sympathetic counsellor... and Seven doesn't play any of the functions that Kes once did at all. Instead, as I said above, she offers skills that other members of the crew already had. It might have worked better if she'd replaced Harry, as was once rumoured. I'd hate to lose Harry, but there's no denying that her talents are a better fit, and a better replacement for his than they were for Kes's. Instead... we get a gap and we get overlap. The problem has never been that Seven isn't an interesting or appealing character, because she is. It's that when she was introduced not enough thought went into the fact that she was part of a shakeup to a crew that already worked, and that they weren't replacing like with like. Not enough thought went into the fact that you shouldn't fall so in love with one character because they're new and novel that you neglect your responsibilities to your existing ones. Or that if you write too much about that character you'll not only irritate folks who want to see those other characters occasionally with the overkill, but you'll also run the well dry and no longer have any fresh or original stories left to tell about them. Please note that this isn't an attempt to bash Seven, in any way, shape or form. I still like the character, but I got so very overdosed on her during seasons four and five that it's pretty hard work to make myself view any episode that she takes the lead role in objectively now. I don't think the problem is with Seven, or with Jeri Ryan's portrayal of her, it's a fundamental flaw in the way that the series is written... or I wouldn't be having similar reactions now to episodes featuring the Doctor, who has also been over-featured to the point where there aren't really any new stories left to tell about him. Sigh. Bit late to change things now, I guess. But while I like many of the stories of the later seasons, they're too inconsistent and uneven in the characterisation and the character air time for me to view them as being anything other than part of an entirely different show. It's my good fortune that I happen to like both shows, up to a point, but darn it... I just liked those people in seasons one, two and three so much better. Jules Re: Support group Hello, group... I am a "Voyager". D47 Re: But i for one am PANTING for some decent, central Janeway Stuff!
Sherry Re: Running hiding and climbing Good point, nothing saps the joy out of recreational activities faster than a know it all companion - even if they aren't doing it on purpose! I had a friend in college that had been taught to play pool by a pool shark - played with him once for fun and never again it was simply too annoying to have every one of his shots sink. After that we hung out at the coffee bar instead. Andrea Wonderful analysis Jules, I hope it isn't so buried down here that no one reads it It is the problem I have always had with Seven. What she knows she doesn't own. When you really take the time to learn something, master a skill, you own it. It becomes a part of you that you have earned. She doesn't own any of what she has. It's on loan from all those other people who did earn it and do own it. That being the case, I find her arrogance distasteful and misplaced. The fact that she still downloads information into her brain irritates me. I'll not add more, you said it all and far better then I. Shadda Not loaned, though. (See, it's not buried - not if you use "mixed thread" view, anyway, and sort for messages posted since your last visit!) Seven's knowledge is stolen, not loaned, since the people who are its source didn't give it to the Borg voluntarily. Which isn't Seven's fault, since she, too, was assimilated (and had twenty years of her life stolen by the Collective) - yet there's something about it that gives me the creeps just the same. You'd think she might have learned her lesson about downloading data into her mind during "The Voyager Conspiracy"? I kept thinking loaned wasn't the word I wanted. Stolen is much better. They were robbed and violated for the information. Of course as you say so was Seven. If you think about it though, Seven has brought nothing at all to the game. She was too young to really have anything to contribute to the collective and has learned nothing on her own. She is the ultimate syphon. I really don't hate the character, in fact I like her. I just don't want to see her as the be all and the end all anymore. I wish more people would point out, like Tom did in "Revulsion", that she is smart because she assimilated a lot of people, not because of some natural or learned reason. Shadda Actually, Seven's Borg knowledge is morally identical to Krell Moset's from Nothing Human. In both cases, the knowledge was obtained by unethical, brutal means. Of course, I was in a definite minority here when that issue was argued re: Nothing Human. Not that I thought the knowledge should definitely be discarded, I thought the both sides had excellent points. Most people just said, "Knowledge is knowledge." (Like "money has no provenance"? In Seven's case, the fact that the real Borg are still using that knowledge for evil definitely tips the moral scales in favor of Seven using that knowledge, especially against the Borg themselves. In a similar manner, I would argue that using Krell's medical knowledge to help people on the same side of the war as his victims is okay. Bajorans - yes. Maquis - yes. But using it to help Cardassians is not. Starfleet personnel? Close call as their role vis-À-vis the Cardassians shifted several times. My personal feeling is no. To be fair, the original nine's duties overlapped quite a bit even before Seven arrived on the scene. Harry did engineering tasks, Tuvok or Paris or even Chakotay sometimes performed ops functions. And Janeway often horned in on any technical problem-solving. Actually, Janeway has been even more of a jill-of-all-trades since season three ended. Since then, we've seen her pilot shuttles and the Voyager itself, fire weapons, help out in sickbay, fight fires, run nightclubs and Resistance cells, cook meals, scrub the floors, etc. The only difference is now we complain about Janeway interfering with Seven's doing B'Elanna's engineering tasks. But Seven should be considered a vessel of that knkoweldge... not like some guru or great mind. Instead of Borg technology, credit should go to the race that developed the technology. By the same token any medicine (vaccine, etc) developed by Krell should be named after his victims and his contirbutions or his name at least should be hidden, that would get the goat of any egotiscal doctor that thinks he or she has the right to inflict pain and suffering on others in the name of their research. Pixie, that's the rationalization behind the "use" of proscribed data... but the rationalization AGAINST its use goes something like this. Rather than "getting" the evil doctor's "goat" by naming the vaccine after the victim, or by using the vaccine "only" on its victims (which brings up ANOTHER interesting ethical question I don't have the time to get into today) you "justify" the evil doctor's research by using it at all. Yes, it's a difficult concept to get your mind around, and somedays I'm "for" using it, and other days I'm "against" using it and quite frankly that's why I "loved" "Nothing Human" (Plastic bug and all). It didn't pull any punches in that story, and showed both sides quite well. Not just "both sides", but the fact that "B'Elanna" didn't fall into Janeway's arms at the end, thanking her for disregarding her wishes. For those who deride "YAATE"... THIS ep was NOT that! D47 While I would say that "people are people." If we're talking about medical knowledge, I think it's moral to use it to help patients no matter who they are or how the knowledge was obtained. BUT. That does not mean I think it is all right to do more of the same, in the name of gaining more knowledge! As for the argument (which you didn't make, Terry, but I've heard others make it), "Well, using immorally acquired knowledge will just encourage others to do such 'research' in the future" - Krell Mosett types (and history's littered with them) would do what they do anyway. They're "outside the law" in their own reckoning, because of their self-perceived "superiority," and that's how they will act no matter what. As for what Seven knows, of course Janeway et al should use it. It's just important IMO to remember that, as Shadda says, Seven gets no credit for having all that knowledge. At the beginning of her time on Voyager she didn't even know when to offer it (remember how long it took her to tell the captain she knew how to build a template for a thoron generator, at a time when that was life-saving information for the whole ship?), let alone what to do with it. But... But if they are as deeply in love as P/T'ers claim, wouldn't they find something else to do that they both enjoyed and could do it together? Like you said: After that we hung out at the coffee bar instead. See you found a way to hang out together without going your seperate ways to have fun. A bit of crude language below, but that is what it looks like to me To me the idea of them doing all their off duty activities seperately takes me back to the theory that they don't love each other they just want a bed partner. Interesting parallel, Terry Comparing the "tainted" nature of Seven's Borg knowledge with that of the knowledge gained through Krell Moset's unethical experiments certainly gives me a bit of a shiver. In both cases the decision to use it is almost irresistable, but at the same time that choice has a murky grey compromised nature to it. I guess I'd like to have seen a little more of that moral heartsearching about the use of some of Seven's knowledge. We've touched upon it occasionally, but have always rather skittered away from facing the subject full on. Jules Re: Running and hiding. LOL! I actually wish I knew more about the workin' innards of a car, Mrs. Mac and Andrea...oh, I can change a flat, and I understand a lot of things, and like to think that I take very good care of my car (I must...it's got 105,000+ miles on it and is running fine *KNOCK ON WOOD*), but I wish I could actually feel better about being able to do things... For instance, I know to change my oil, etc. every 2500-3000 miles, but I wish I knew exactly how to do it (I have an idea, but it's not the same thing)... So count your blessings, Andrea and Mrs. Mac! Mindy Neither do I That is, I don't hate her either--but neither do I want to see her as the be-all and end-all. You put it very well, Shadda! The main problem isn't with Seven per se, but it's that we, as well as VOYAGER, are suffering from an overdose of Seven. Other activities Actually, I was referring to a friend, not my finacee which makes that an entirely different relationship dynamic. As for my finacee, he and I both have activities that we enjoy together, but there are also plenty of thigns that we enjoy doing separately. In truth I think that is better for the two of us. If we did absolutely EVERYTHING together I think we'd drive one another crazy. So on occassion we socialize separately, with our own friends, or do different things. In the long run it makes us closer - we respect one anothers individuality which includes allowing one another to do something we enjoy without a) tolerating it and sapping the joy for the other party by obviously not liking what we are doing or b) refusing to do something and making the other unhappy. If nothing else it gives us something to talk about over dinner besides our work day Andrea Re: Other activities... Andrea, I think Khalil Gibran (sp?) said it well in his "Prophet" when he spoke of two married people as being like 2 trees growing in the wood. They are separate, and single, but reach their branches out towards one another. Yet, even as they stretch towards one another, they "grow" best by being separate, by having space between them. I'm sure B'Elanna and Tom know how to enjoy themselves "as" a couple (do not read "bed partner into that statement) and "more" importantly as individuals. D47 Fascinating, Jules. Thank you so much for sharing those thoughts with us. And what a pity you can't go back in time and share them with TPTB. I would have loved, _loved_ to see a 'humanized' Borg the way you envision it. Considering what we're just now beginning to learn about the brain, its ability to 'rewire' itself, its responses to trauma - particularly childhood trauma - the possibilities for Seven's de-borgification could have been awesome. Would her knowledge have flicked in and out, perhaps a la Sam's 'swiss-cheese' brain in Quantum Leap? Imagine if she set the ship up to do a Borg loop-de-loop technobabble -- and then forgot how it was to be done, leaving Voyager in the lurch, as bad guys swooped down, guns blazing? What would it have meant to her relationship with Janeway if Seven found herself unable to fulfill her responsibilities or promises? Every time an implant flickered, would we the audience be wondering what it was Seven was about to forget or remember? Ronit Terry, since Deb's busy ...... Terry wrote: "In a similar manner, I would argue that using Krell's medical knowledge to help people on the same side of the war as his victims is okay. Bajorans - yes. Maquis - yes. But using it to help Cardassians is not. Starfleet personnel? Close call as their role vis-À-vis the Cardassians shifted several times. My personal feeling is no." Terry, does what you're saying apply only to the time period during which Krell Moset was conducting his experiments and immediately thereafter? Are you assuming an on-going conflict, and whatever rules apply during wartime? I think that I've probably misunderstood you. The argument you seem to proposing is this: any medical knowledge gained by Dr. Mengele's experiments on Jews during the Holocaust can be used to help Jews, not Germans, and early members of the Allies (Brits but not Russians). I don't know what the rules of war or the Geneva Convention say about withholding medical treatment from an enemy soldier. If the year were 1943, if the place was Nazi-occupied Poland, I for one would have little compunction about withholding medical treatment from a Nazi soldier. That's any sort of medical care - not just that which results from inhumane experiments. In the same time and place, would I be willing to use the results of Dr. Menegele's experiments to save the life of a Jew, a Gypsy or a member of the Resistance? Probably. What would the recipient of such medical care, let alone the human subjects have to say? I can't imagine. But that's wartime. In the year 2000, in a country where disputes are settled at the ballot box or by the billable hour... I don't know whether or not the results of Nazi experiments should be used. Knowledge is NOT 'simply knowledge'. I do know that if such results areused , they should be available to whoever needs them. Ronit Re: P/T But... (again) I'm sure B'Elanna and Tom know how to enjoy themselves "as" a couple (do not read "bed partner into that statement) and "more" importantly as individuals. But TPTB aren't showing us this. That's what I'm talking about. That's why even this seasons there are still so many Anti-P/T'ers around. This season is doing P/T no better really than the past seasons have. The way TPTB are showing this relationship is that during their off time they are both enjoying activities seperately when it comes to hanging out. Which is good in small doses. I know even two best friends cannot spend all their time together, that would be just as bad. But then they still (with the exception of Repression) aren't showing that P/T spend any off duty time together. They are saying the exact opsite in fact. Like B'Elanna's comments in this recent episode. She says she sees enough of Tom, but then we find out from her that they spend all their off duty time doing their own thing, not spending time together. And this is what makes me think that they are bed mates only. Because if they aren't sharing any interests on anything. Then what else could they be doing together? Re: Terry, since Deb's busy ..... Thanks, Ronit, I know, ever since Shadda pointed out how mouthy (not "just" wordy Sorry. As for "withholding" treatment for Nazi soldiers, whether its based on "general knowledge" or based on "proscribed/tortured" knowledge... well... I'd argue that the medical community "shouldn't" go there. In fact, I think I argued a version of this during "Critical Care" when I worried about "where" The EMH let himself be led. Into an arena where Doctors "should not" find themselves. The arena of "who should live and who should die based not on medical concerns but on societal concerns. The only reason those red crosses on the roofs of tents/barracks are supposed to protect the doctors and nurses that labour under them is BECAUSE they are "neutral". Once medicine is used, however, to punish someone for whatever reason, then the medical community becomes a "combattent" (sp?) and therefore deserves no more protection than the average "grunt". Not only that, when the psyche of the medical personel is subverted to the "dark side" then is "anyone" safe... Nazi soldier OR allied soldier? As for "is such proscribed knowledge" presently used... the answer is "yes". I recall, oh, 9-10 years ago, listening to a lecture on hypothermia (cold water injury) and the lecturer stopping to say... "There's no nice way to say this. Data presented today will include studies from Nazi experiments on holocaust victims." He left it up to us to walk away or to listen. Believe me, its a difficult topic. D47 Anytime, Deb.... Goodness knows I won't pass on the chance to up my mouthiness quotient. Ironically, I now find myself clarifying a post in which I asked Terry to clarify his post. (Was that convoluted enough for ya?) My underlying assumptions...Good thing you got me to think about them. I guess I was envisioning myself (Nazi-occupied Poland, 1943) as a member of the underground who had some discretion over where medical resources might go. (Partisan in the forest with some wounded of both sides lying about, perhaps). I wasn't thinking about what would be appropriate for a physician, or a member of an Allied Force (ie an official of some kind). I was assuming that any decisions I made would not be an official policy. That's obviously not an appropriate parallel for Janeway's position. I find it hard to believe that the results of Nazi experimentation are being used. Denial is a great and wonderful thing. Previously the only Nazi hypothermia experiments I was aware of were conducted on British and American POWs. I'm going to go off and ask some questions and do some more thinking about this.... Ronit Re: Anytime, Deb.... Perhaps I misspoke on "holocaust" vs "prisoners of War" victims, Ronit... but the main fact still remains, he used it in his talk. The data is "out there", and the controversy about which would be "more" disrespectful is "also" out there. Sigh. I remember responding to a post "years" ago on this board, with the words... "I love debating "non"life or death subjects!" Hmmmm. "What" happened to the "good old days"? D47 Deb, surely you're not implying that we haven't been shallow *enough* ? Don't we work hard at it? Very, very hard ???? But, if you insist {heaving great put-upon sigh}, I suppose I could lead the charge into the frivolous side of life. Hmmm, what could it be? A boxers or briefs debate? A top ten list for the gifts Tom & B'Elanna got for their wedding -- (a volume of Vulcan poetry from Tuvok? 101 Leola Root Recipes, personally inscribed by Neelix? The Doc's holotour of the Bolian intestinal system?) -- it's not like they could give anything away in a ship that small.... Have I let a week go by without posting some Tyr eyecandy? Shame on me! Ronit Re: Khalil Gibran Okay, that was the general idea I was trying to get across, but Khalil Gibran just said it a whole lot nicer! Andrea Re: Deb, surely you're not implying .... Ronit, How did I miss this one???? Hmmmm, boxers or briefs? Is that up there with T shirts or tank tops? How about Janeway's sleep garb for another earth shattering topic? In the first season it was the sexy pink job. In the second season/new Earth, it was the puritanical blue "cover me from head to foot" job. In season 4-5 I think it was REALLY scary... and consisted of her in her shirt sleeves (T shirt) and uniform. In season 6 it was the frumpy robed "I WISH I looked as good as a soccer mom" job. What will it be for season 7??????? Inquiring minds want to know! D47 Hmmmmmm Trivia - Nit Dept: YOH / Nightingale Regarding Harry's command experience: during the weeks when the senior staff was off on the holodeck, unaware of who or what they were -- wasn't Harry in charge? Ronit Nah. As I remember it, the Hirogen were. I'll concede you that Harry was definitely spokesperson for the few crew who were left aware to service the ship and the holodecks though, and by implication for those who were unaware of their predicament as well. But maybe he did so well because he didn't think of it as a leadership issue. He had plenty of other things to get nervous and tense about instead. Jules Defending the Nervous As I recall, 'twas Harry who came up with the plan to "awaken" the Captain and crew and then carried it out, even delegating parts of the job to the Doc. Maybe the crushing weight of all those failed love affairs made it slip his mind. Ronit Well, Harry's obviously prone to amnesia Or he wouldn't keep making the same old mistake again with every ABOTW that he meets. And I maintain that he was too busy trying to figure out how, as one of the few crew still awake, he was going to get them all out of this hole in "Killing Game" to have time to think "Eek! I'm in charge! I must foul things up immediately!" Whereas on the night shift on the bridge... he has all too much time to reflect on his leadership ambitions. And, though I haven't seen it yet, I daresay there were a few downtime like moments where he could spend too much time second guessing himself in "Nightingale" too. Jules If he had time to decorate his office, surely he had time to second and third guess himself. Your explanation of how and why he got things done during Killing Game works all too well. How would the Captain fill that part of the personnel evaluation form out - "Leadership potential: only under unrelenting emergency - useless in intermittent crisis situations." Ronit That really tickled me Ronit | ||
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, Andrea. (NIM)
"You're not REALLY serious, are you? You liked it even after Kes left? Even when they had ASATT? Even when Janeway was in need of serious mental counseling in season 5????!!!!!"
"You're much too far gone for us, D47... we suggest you get to a shock center as quickly as possible!"
We'll just start our own support group, Deb, that way we won't get those insane looks and sad shakes of the head 'there goes ANOTHER fan who is deluded and misguided'