The Coffee Nebula Board is for the discussion of Star Trek: Voyager and other sci-fi/cult shows. This is its Archive of episode discussions, top ten lists, fan fiction, and other miscellaneous musings.
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"Who would have thought that this eclectic group of voyagers could actually become a family. Starfleet, Maquis, Klingon, Talaxian, hologram, Borg... even Mr Paris." |
Body And SoulBODY AND SOUL - Discussion Thread It's 9:44. This episode drove me upstairs to my computer. So far I'm giving it 2 healthy thumbs down. Mac. Barf. I hated this episode. It s--ked. Mac. - man of many words. This was like watching one of those bad-taste sex comedy Ferengi episodes on DS9. And the unbelievably hokey ending made me cringe. The only interesting elements of the story were the idea of a photonic insurrection and Tuvok's pon farr. But they never explained why the holograms were rebelling. And since they made the captain and the female jack-of-all-trades so sympathetic, this was a crying shame. And I just couldn't believe that Tuvok's pon farr was pushed into a B story and one of the shortest B-stories of all time. I don't think he was on-screen for even ten minutes total. What a freaking waste! Voyager does this all the time and it makes me mad. They are so afraid of writing about strong emotional moments so they avoid them until fan clamor for them. Then they botch it so badly and then claim, "We gave them what they wanted and they didn't like it!" Janeway romance, Paris-Torres romance/marriage, yadda, yadda, yadda. I wasn't so wrong long ago when I jokedly claimed that Tuvok had his pon farr in between episodes. Instead, he had a quicky in between clumsy Doc/Seven sexual humor. Re: BODY AND SOUL - Discussion Thread Okay, I had some serious hopes for this episode and there were some moments I found truly entertaining. But there are also things that sent me screaming into a fit. First of all how is possible that Tuvok's Pon Farr is over and done with? Excuse me? We are talking about at least an entire episode here. I am very angry about that. The ending was bad. No question there. But there was one moment, that I thought was brilliant. While Sev/Doc was talking with the female jack of all trades and she was talking about the photonic who raised her. She couldn't understand why he had joined the resistance. He was allowed his own life wasn't treated like a servant, was a member of the family. And still he ran and joined the revolution feeling sleighted. Sound like anyone we know? I thought it was very in keeping with the Doc's character that he didn't respond to that. He doesn't seem to have the answers when he is the one under the microscope. I would have been displeased if he had responded then, but I would like to see it returned to later, perhaps with the Doc growing up a little and realizing that he has a pretty good deal. I'm gone for the next few days, so I will have to try to find the thread to see what everyone else thought. I'm still adjusting to the new board. Oh well. Andrea The Good, the Bad, and the Seriously Ugly Well... The Good: - "It's completely tasteless" ...Neelix foreshawdowing our reviews. - The man-to-man discussion at the window in Tuvok's quarters. Reminiscent of Kirk/Spock. - The pointed comments about Seven's inability to enjoy life. - Sniffing Ensign Kim. Okay, it was predictable...but it was a treasure The Bad: - No B'Elanna. No sign, no reference (except as "the wife"). Yikes. What is up with that! - The wooden aliens. No wonder the photonics revolted. These guys seems waaaayyy too boring for me. - B'Elanna missing. Sorry, can't get over that. The Seriously Ugly: - Seven as the Doctor. Bleech. Her snooty attitude was just over the top. Undoubtedly to be played for laughes but I just got annoyed. All in all...a little too formulaic with a few gems thrown in to make me watch it over. When dealing with relationships, RDM did great. The comedy was flat. Sue_B What NO B'Elanna, except as a reference as Tom's wife?! Why am I not surprised (see my messages below; it's such a burden to see things so clearly Voyager is dead. That did it. I am now convinced that Biller should be kept far, far away from the Voyager set. All this time i wanted Braga GONE i didn't care WHO took over. Be careful what you wish for. I am a Star Trek fan, i am not a Zany Sci-Fi comedies fan. Good Grief i don't know where to start this was so bad. I mean, i thought S6 was bad but it doesn't come anywhere NEAR this level of crap. What happened? Can there be ANY hope for the final chapter? Pixie said Braga would be involved some how. I never thought i would say this but i HOPE SO! Where is Jason? Jason, YOU WERE RIGHT!!! Bring him BACK! Body and Soul? The Good : Not one damn minute. Maybe there was a second or two but that's it. The Bad : All the rest. Good grief, did they really make Tuvok's Pon Farr a bad B story?? How can this be??? You know if it wasn't for this board and you guys i wouldn't even be watching anymore.... Eric Voyager continues to disappoint me. Thank God it's the final season! The producers obviously are thumbing their noses at the droves of Voy fan who are sick to death of Seven of Nine. And I actually thought TPTB would come to their senses for the FINAL season. Shame on me. Nice for TPTB to totally waste a perfect opportunity to display Tovok's Pon Far (which I thought it was for a few scenes); but instead, as it turns out, he's only suffering from the Vulcan Flu? What a Shame. Season Seven--like the current election charade--continues to barrel down hill. On a lighter note: Kudos to the new board! Way, way too much personal information... I really did not need to know about Tom's recreational activities with the holo-slave girls. Note I believe the reference was to Bride of Chaotic and he was dating B'Elanna at the time he was running his Captain Proton slave girls holoprogram. Ick. So how many of the crew now have indulged themselves with holograms? Like I said before way too much info. Interesting that they moved this episode up. Ryan did a good job imitating Picardo. Yet her Doc lacked the charm that Picardo manages to bring to his Doc. Where was the Doc in Drive? He was the one that should have been advising B'Elanna. I think this was the fourth episode with absolutely no B'Elanna (not one line, not any scenes). Neelix at least makes it on screen. This season keeps looking more and more like Season Five. So why exactly would Seven have really sensations in her artificial arm. If pleasure, pain is irrelevant, all she would register in her cortical node is some input like Doc or Data. Also why would the Borg enhance the sense of smell. Again if her sense of smell is enhanced its due to her mechanical parts way, than it should be more like a registration of certain data in her cortical node, like Geordi's visor-enhanced sight. I know I'm be nitpicky here but I really don't like that Tuvok and B'Elanna who both have heightend sense and strength due to their alien heritages, but that never gets explored, so we can have another Seven is so special and unique story. Apparently I am alone in this but I laughed. I thought Ryan did a great imitation of Doc. Her gestures and eye rolling were right on. Perhaps I wasn't looking for too much here, it was supposed to be a farce, and I thought it was. I do wish they had dealt with Tuvok's pon farr in a different episode, or given it more time, but the scenes with he and Paris were very good. I don't think we were supposed to take Paris' comments about the slave girls seriously, but then Pixie does tend to turn anything he does into something against B'Elanna. I am sure that, if we look hard enough, we will find out that McNeill is the one resonsible for the fact we still don't have a president elect The photonics started an insurgence because they didn't like the way they were treated, what more do you need to know? I don't think this was supposed to be about civil rights for photonic individuals it was about the Doc finding out more about life. Quite frankly, I am getting more tired of Doc then I am of Seven. This is becoming far more about what the Doc feels, how the Doc grows, what the Doc thinks then it is about the rest of the crew. This may have had Seven in it the most, but it was about the doc. I will stand alone here, having enjoyed this one, laughed at this one, though it had problems, I liked it. Shadda Re: Apparently I am alone in this but I laughed. Actually, the fact that Tuvok emphasized twice that holodeck characters are no substitute for his wife, directly at Paris indicates SOMETHING. And the fact that RDM didn't play that line like anything akin to a joke, makes me think he's admiting to a few holodeck indulgences even while he was dating B'Elanna. The episode wasn't that great, definitely not up to the promo. A few laughs here and there, but once again the promo was chopped from scenes from other episodes - like the one where Janeway has her head in her hand. The only stuff I did like was the initial scene where the Doctor was running his hands over Seven's body, stopping short of..., then the sniffing, the cheese cake, then the sexual arousal scene, but that was it. I too thought Ryan did a great job as the Doctor. Since we aren't used to seeing those expressions on her face of course we don't get the same nuance that Picardo does as himself. Unfortunately, there was nothing with B'Elanna, again. At least they're giving Harry something to do because Wang didn't have anything much last year. But TPTB seriously need to spread the wealth, and make better stories than this. Enough Picardo, he's getting worse than Ryan in the use of screen time like in Season 4. I loved the man in China Beach, but too much! I knew this was a farce and I took it just as you did. I did get several giggles out of it--though most of all, I was really caught up in Ryan's imitation of Doc. She really did a great job. I liked the rest of the crew, too, though Harry's reactions early on gave me an itch of "kick Wesley syndrome," though he got better later into in the ep. I do think the pacing was slow for what they were doing. A better script could have cut between the A and B plots more cleverly and with more balance; the scenes on the AOTW ship could have progressed with a little more snap, giving more and better time for Tuvok's plight. I agree completely about Tom not speaking all that seriously about slave girls. I think he tone and subject were right in character for that topic and situation, a tricky man-to-man of sorts. He was trying wonderfully to be subtle and helpful. On that half-serious side, asking men to throw out their Playboy mags and "guy flicks" when you're dating just isn't fair in my book (since I'll never give up my steamy stuff, either). It's not like Paris carried on a harem on the holodeck. Sheesh! And unlike Bones (Hi Bones! --are you new?), I didn't take Tuvok's statement of "no replacement for my wife," as corrective. It was a point unto itself, which Tom seemed to understand. It was Tuvok, after all, who'd thought the worse of Tom's initial idea, and Tom who clarified that he'd replicate Tuvok's wife, not just any woman for a quick fix. And because I did enjoy those scenes between Tom and Tuvok, I am rather much with the rest of the crowd that wished more time had been given to them. It made a great contrast to the A-plot, but certainly was not spead out enough to justify it. I agree with Terry in that I think that TPTB do shy off from heavy emotional input, though I don't think that's RDM's doing (as he's stated for years he enjoys playing with passions--and has always wanted more between P&T). I think the final stage of writing might have been to blame this go-round. I think RDM would have loved to have had a whole ep of the ponn farr to direct. On the no B'Elanna: Trust me, no one could be missing her more than I, though I think I recall a blurb somewhere that said she'd be off for a week or so during Voyager's production--maybe the week and a bit she traveled to China to adopt her daughter? I believe that's what it was, since I know by Phili they'd already filmed Drive some weeks before. So anyway, while not great, the ep did keep me watching even with the lags, and I did get a laugh here and there, so it was good. I certainly didn't despise it as some others here did. My main complaint is the common one: Not enough time given to something that should have been more important. Next week: Oooh! Did anyone see how they trashed Voyager??? Egad, Biller said they would. Now, let's see if we get a YOH reconstruction. We've been told we wouldn't, but only time will tell. Re: "but I laughed." Oh Thank god! Cuz so did I. Shadda, you are "spot on" about Jeri's impression of the Doc. I was so glad to see that the "art" of imitation on that set does not stop with Garret's version of "fill in the blank" or Picardo's and Phillips version of "Seven". Every hand wave, eye roll and arms crossing supercilious pose screamed to me of "EMH in love with himself" ... and I'm sorry but I HOWLED. For an episode surrounding "Seven" and the "Doc"... this sure had a lot of emotion, not to mention sex in it this week. The Holographic Doc having the hots for the Alien tactical officer/medic. The Medic having them for the ALien Captain. The Alien Captain having them for Doc/Seven. Tuvok having them for his wife. Tom talking about pre"wedded bliss" on the holodeck. TUVOK explaining so well why he "couldn't" indulge thusly on said holodeck... (I thought Tom was portrayed MUCH more maturely in this ep than in "Gravity". Marrying B'Elanna really HAS opened his eyes to Tuvok's "problem" much more this season than season 5) Yes, Shadda, this truly was a "farce"... and although not guite as frenetic as "Lend me a Tenor" (the last farce I saw on stage) it WAS funny. Neelix, "A man in your condition should REALLY be in bed!" LOL! and "almost" as good... his soup made to Tuvok's required parameters... with so few spices that its void of smell and nearly tasteless! I watched the ep and thought... wow... here we see further "growth"... not just for the "Doc" in his exploration of sensation/cheesecake (hmmmm, do the conspiracy buffs wonder why "that" desert was chosen?), but also growth for Seven. She was actually "smiling" at Harry in the teaser, and made a wondefully droll joke about turning off the Doc's vocal processers. In the end, she not only began to "try" new experiences (I don't think "I" would have started with Foi gra {sp} I suspect that "she" learned more from the Doc than just the wonder of taste sensations... Specifically, in 2 days he got closer to the Captain and the "Medic" than she's gotten with most of her crew in 3 years. She's ALSO learned, from "listening" to the Doc talking to the Medic/Captain, how highly the EMH has prized her. With that knowledge... I see their last scene together in the sickbay as a nice bookend to that other "famous" Doc/Seven scene at the end of "Virtuoso". What else did I like? I liked the the EMH got SEVERAL lessons in how poorly he was treating SEVEN! Using her "body" like a toy was an accurate accusation. If anyone should know the effect of Synthahol on her physiology, not to mention the effect of dietary changes on same, it should have been HIM! But, alas, its not only "Organics" that seem to take advantage of Photonics" in this show. "Continuity".... What can I say. I love Tom/Tuvok... and I love the fact that the guy who went on the "Blood Fever" expedition with Tuvok was able to put 1 + 1 together soooo quickly. I loved the fact that they not only "brought up" the question of Tuvok's "Ponn Far", but they did it AS th "B" story. The problems inherent in this story make me "glad" they didn't delve "too" deeply into it. Too much information? Actually, to me it was "enough" to assure me "it" was coming to fruitition and not just "YAATE". I loved the further acknowledgement of Tom & B'Elanna's "Marriage". We didn't "see" B'Elanna last night... that's true... but we have definately seen how she's affected her "Flyboy". It's not that "SHE" forbids slave girls from planet 10.... its just that they no longer even come up on his "radar". I liked that. I liked the fact that for "once" we actually "see" Tom doing his "other" job. (Also that they have crosstraining on the other ship) Attending to Tuvok in his quarters, "Listening" to what the Vulcan's NOT saying... and being mature enough/intuitive enough to "fill in the blanks", and continue to work on his behalf when the treatment left behind by the EMH doesn't work. I really liked that. "No" B'Elanna, "little" Chakotay, and precious "little" JANEWAY, last night, that's true. Hmmmmmm. Do you think TPTB listened to Beltran's complaints that this was all a "Janeway & Seven" show? We've had very little Janeway since imperfection... but I'm not complaining. (Oh my gosh. I hear HOJ guards coming after me.) Don't get me wrong, I LOVE Janeway, especially when she's "saber rattling"... but I also love other members of the crew and its nice to see them interact with each other. Harry and Seven. Seven and the Doc. Tom & Tuvok. Even the meerest of Tuvok & Neelix, not to mention "touchy feely Janeway" and Tuvok. (Talk about courageous Kate. I thought that "arm around the shoulder" of her Ponn Farr fevered friend was tatamount to putting your head in the lion's mouth! Oh well.... what can I say. I enjoyed myself last night. D47 I get to practice my Roman thumbs for real this time! Well, this certainly goes in my book as the worst episode of the season, and one of the worst all time. There were some exciting potential elements: a holographic uprising, the Doc's ability to integrate with a Borg, and Tuvok's Ponn Farr. Sadly, the holographic uprising was not explained, Ryan's performance was just in time for Ham on Thanksgiving, and too little time was taken dealing with Tuvie's PF. I thought Ryan's performance was just way over the top. This wasn't a comedy. First of all, the seriousness of being boarded and hijacked was taken so lightly that it was laughable. It may as well have been Ferengi boarding their vessel. In fact, it probably would have been BETTER had the kidnappers been Ferengi. Then there would be humor in the joke. I like the idea of Doc integrating with Seven, but it would have been a much better story a few episodes ago. It would have been nice if the Voyager crew captured a Borg, forced it the integrate with the doctor, and then set the doctor loose in the hive for a "serious" mission. Poor Beltran. He had one line to say and sadly he blew it. He wasn't kidding when he said that he only reads his lines in the script. Chakotay and Janeway find out that the doctor was inside Seven. Chakotay says, "Now I know you're in trouble." He read it like a serious comment. Like he had NO IDEA what was going on in the story. His tongue and cheek were misaligned. Poor delivery. Beltran is just coasting through this season. Gag me with a spoon but the sexual innuendos were just too much. All in all, this episode reminded me of one of the skits this cast might put together in the back room for presentation at the next convention.
Coming down squarely in the middle. Disappointment (my daddy taught me to always give the bad news first!): We now know that everything previous Trek tales concerning pon farr told us was wrong. If Tuvok could recover from it by m@sturbating with a hologram - then the "mating bond" aspect, the mind meld, not only isn't as important as we've been told; it doesn't even matter. (Unless Tom's figured out how to give that hologram T'Pel's consciousness, which I'm forced to doubt.) Grrrr. I'm not relieved that the writers avoided a delicate subject; I'm seriously annoyed that they dissed continuity to this extent. With that said (and I mean it - do I EVER mean it!) - good comedy episode otherwise. Ryan's performance was over-the-top because it needed to be; she did it well. Action Kate doing whatever it took to protect her ship, and then to lose her escort and rescue her lost lambs, was great. Nice to see that Kathryn again...! Her "last time you had the flu was 7 years ago, Tuvok," line cracked me up - the delivery fully as much as the line itself. I missed B'Elanna, too. Must say that. Maybe more later...gotta work now. I agree and Did any else catch that class slave owners line " but we treated him just like family" I haven't been this disappointed in a voyager episode in a long, long time and worst it had potential. * if they where going to mention pon far it should have been the A story line. The scenes between Tuvok and Tom were wonderful but there should have been so much more ( actually I'd have rather TPTB hadn't mentioned it at all and leave it to fan fiction ) but if your going to do it do it right * IMHO this episode should not have been played for laughs the A story line should have been given an entire episode unto it self . I agree that the characters of the ship were very sympathetic ,but the HE WAS ALLOWED TO GROW AND DEVELOP HIS OWN INTEREST AND WAS PART OF THE FAMILY reminded me of the southern slave owners who were so surprised when their slaves revolted and joined the Union Army. We should have seen some of these holograms maybe they will talk about it in the future *Of course this episode cried out for PT scenes I thought this was the episode where Belanna became pregnant? Re: You are so right about the quicky treatment of Tuvok's pon farr. At the very first reference to it in the episode, I thought "Gee, this can't be just a B story." Actually, with all the remarks that he was having only the first signs of pon farr, I figured we might see more of it over the next few weeks. Boy, was I wrong! I can scarcely believe that the subject was brought up, "developed" (for lack of a better term) and resolved so quickly inside this episode. In case some of TPTB have forgotten, this is a very important and serious concern for Vulcans. And the writers even put in the remarks about how older Vulcans experience stronger pons farr (plural?), instead of having them weaken as humans seem to expect. Then they WASTED the idea. Now, I don't want to jump to conclusions. Maybe they'll pick up on this idea in the next few weeks, with Tuvok finding out that his and Tom's attempt to take care of it in the holodeck didn't work out quite as smoothly as it first appeared. But at this point, I'll believe it when I see it. On the good side, I did like the conversations between Tuvok and Tom about how Tom has given up hooking up with holo-women since he got married. That suggests that it would be good if we could just see some more of his married life--and his wife! Actually, I did see some things I liked in this episode, but the overall handling left so much to be desired that I think that I'll write about it in another post. Sherry, exasperated I've just got one thing to say about Body & Soul & Season 7 So, did anybody watch Stargate SG-1 this week? The Showtime season 4 episode on Friday night was one of my all time favorites, Window of Opportunity. I laughed, I cried, I gasped with surprise (at least I did the first time I saw that episode). The syndicated season 3 episode on Sunday was also a great one. An alternate reality done to perfection. I laughed, I cried, I "wooooo"-ed.
Vickie What does SG-1 have to do with "Body and Soul"? What's your point? Get a sense of humor, Geordi Sorry if I was too subtle for you. Offense taken. Vickie An Amusing Little Episode! Another installment of "Voyager Lite." I thought it was a fun episode. Felt Ryan did a good job imitating Picardo. I find Ryan does very well in comedy. I read where McNeill advised Ryan to go over the top when imitating Picardo, he advised her well. Also thought the "Cheesecake" scene was quite funny. Also thought that there was much character growth in this episode, i.e. for Seven, Doc, Tuvok, and Tom. Both Seven and Doc got to experience new sensations, and as shown in the end, it made them more "human." It taught both to share and receive graciously. Even thought Tuvok's Pon Far was a small part of the show, it expanded the Tuvok and Tom friendship/male bonding. In this episode we see Tom and Tuvok talking seriously, and Tuvok treating Tom as an equal, not a subordinate. Is this a result of "the marriage"? I think so. Tom now understands the "commitment" made in marriage and now has an understanding of Tuvok's devotion to T'Pel. Remember Gravity? Tom didn't understand this "commitment" concept and encourage Tuvok to "go with his feelings" for the "high pitched voice lady." What a change in how each views the other. Also, I think this was the first episode where Tom DID NOT make a wisecrack or a funny comment. His entire dialogue was serious and caring. Wow, look what B'Elanna and marriage have done to him. Is this a sign of maturity? And, was this the week off that Dawson asked for so she could take care of her new arrival? So, even though B'Elanna was physically missing, she played a very important role in the show, that's real power. Di If you have to ask, Geordie, you didn't get the joke. No one in here but us Tarkalian chickens. I laughed, too, but... ...I was rather disappointed with the handling of the pon farr storyline. I'll have more to say later...I hope. My job is driving. me. crazy. BTW, Bones, if you are, indeed, a new poster, welcome to the board. Ginny ...and the trailer for next week? Was it any good? nim The trailer was better then the episode... Here be SPOILERS! . . . . . . . ....but since B&S was the most craptacular of the season that ain't saying much! Anyway, looks like we have some nice FX work as we see Harry trying to take charge of an AOTW ship. WE also get some nice battle FX. If anything, i am VERY glad to be getting away from Voyager's Whacky, Zany Comedy Hijinx! Oh and the last shot was Voyager being blown to heck and gone. After this week i say good riddence! Eric I was laughing with you, Shadda. Ryan did a fantastic job. The Doc's speech about their respective inabilities to enjoy life was great. Separately, Diane... you listed who loved who loved who - which Shakespeare comedy does this resemble most? Midsummer Night's Dream? Ronit I didn't think it was a matter of Seven, but of Doc's response My impression was that he would have had the exact same attitude if he had somehow (?) been occupying Tuvok's or B'Elanna's body--or, for that matter, Katherine's or Harry's. It's not that Seven's senses were enhanced, but that her body received sensual information which wasn't written into Doc's program. It can be compared to Geordi's look at the sunrise in the last movie. While he could see all kinds of data about the sunrise through his visor, it wasn't the same thing as ordinary vision of the sunrise. Re: Apparently I am alone in this but I laughed. I thought Jeri Ryan gave a great performance overall--as Seven and Doc, and as Seven experiencing the effects of Doc's occupying her body. At the same time, I'm inclined to think that the A and B stories should have been reversed. They should have done more with the story about Tuvok's pon farr and how it affected his relations with the rest of the crew, especially Janeway and Tom. I think part of the problem was the timing of this episode: airing it the week after the one about Barclay's hologram. "Body and Soul" might have been more effective comically if it hadn't come so close to another hologram-centered episode. I do have a sense of humor... just not everyone watches SG-1, and I was in *no* way offensive to you. You're taking this *way* too personal from someone who was confused with why you mention SG-1 when we're talking about "Body and Soul". See the confused smiley in the subject header? Sherry, you hit it on the head. Switching the A and B plots--indeed! I think if it'd been done like that, with Tuvok's PF being the storyline constrasted with the D/7 plot, the ep could have been quite excellent. I actually liked that Tuvok's pon farr was the B Plot. There's been so much speculation about how and when it would be handled that anything would have disappointed someone. At least they addressed the issue and acknowledged that others had been expecting this (Doc's medication, Janeway's 7 years ago remark). I liked that Tom was the one who put 2 & 2 together, who Tuvok felt he could confide in and whose holo-programming skills, combined with Tuvok's input, created an acceptable T'Pel. Obviously quite a difference from the generic Vulcan woman that Doc programmed for Vorik. Of course Tuvok's superior mental discipline probably helped him convince himself it was T'Pel long enough for the program to work. The A Plot struck me as a bit too over the top. It does fit in the "make Seven more human" theme, though. And I agree with whoever said something about a Shakespeare comedy, but not "Midsummer Night's Dream". I was reminded of the one in the Forest of Arden with women dressed as men ("Comedy of Errors"?). I wonder if the photonic rebels are foreshadowing of the upcoming episode about holograms rebelling against the Hirogen. Ronit, you mentioned Voyager & Shakespeare Funny you mention "Midsummer's Night Dream." Of Course, in fact, McNeill in his Fandom interview stated that B&S was loosely based on this play. But then, Shakesapeare also used this technique in "Tweleth Night" Can't comment on SG-1, Vickie. . . . . .but I think you channel Thumper's Mom very nicely. (I don't get Showtime, and although SG-1 airs on one of my regular cable channels, it's on at 5:00 p.m. on a Saturday -- definitely not optimum viewing time in my life. Of course, there really is no such thing as optimum viewing time for me these days. Sigh. I second Ginny. My job drives. me. crazy!) MEG 12th Night & Much Ado both feature characters in disguise or drag, if you will. On that basis I think they're a better comparision. I knew I could count on you for a lit reference... Ronit What we need is a "waffle" icon like in Doonesbury (NIM) Pixie, Dawson asked for time off to take care of her new arrival She stated at the PA conference that she was thankful to TPTB for allowing her a lot of time off, including a whole week (maybe this episode?). Did you know that she had a new arrival, Mia? Besides all the normal parental preparations, they had to travel to China to get their new "bundle of joy." From what I understand, expect to see plenty of B'Elanna starting January. Remember, this was only the 6th episode out of 20. Regarding your "cut" scene. It would have had no bearing on this episode. Who knows, maybe the "flesh" scene was between Tuvok and the holographic T'Pel. Rumors and just that! Di Re: 12th Night & Much Ado It always amazes me how many people DON'T get Shakespeare's comedies, especially Mid-Summer Night's Dream. I find it interesting that many people didn't care for this Voyager episode. Parallel, similarity? BTW, My favorite play that is misinterpreted or disliked is "Taming Of The Shrew" (actually, one of my favorite). We will have to discuss this privately. It deals with who tamed who, and who is the shrew. Di *smacks forehead* I meant to say, 'As You Like It.' Not 'Much Ado About Nothing'. As D pointed out, "As You Like It" is a great parallel to Body & Soul. Disguised gender bending induces all sorts of romantic complications. And then there's Rosalind's speech at the end, unraveling the whole mess... Okay, I'm going to find some coffee now. Ronit I assure you, Di, that my dislike of B&S... ...has nothing to do with not getting the comedy. As for your contention that people who dislike Shakespeare's comedies do so because they don't get it, well, IMHO, at the most fundamental level, the arts are all about a person's emotional response to the artist's product, be that a painting, sculpture, book or play, and it's hardly fair to imply that a person who doesn't share your sensibilities is somehow lacking in intelligence or judgement. Vickie, Shakespeare fan since 1971 It really was . . . the Pon farr, apparently, but it was so mishandled that it might as well have been the Vulcan flu. More comments later. 216 who feels really, really slighted that they were so cheap with the Pon farr. If you're going to give it that little credit, why even show it at all? ...bad cases of the human flu?! By the way, I see Jules has added the line of smileys so we can get the codes easily. Thanks, Jules! Hello Bones... are you a McCoy fan? Welcome to the neb, if you are new, and welcome back if your posting under a new handle. The usual questions at this time usually include... how do you take your coffee? Starbucks or Dunkin Donuts or McDonalds? And, more importantly, which Janeway hairdo do you like the most?
D47 Bones, are you new? Welcome Stay and have some coffee. Di Vickie, Yep, you got me I'm an Arts Snob! Yo! What's up today? Does anyone miss Braga yet? Bwa ha haaaa! I knew it would happen eventually. Anyway, Voyager under Biller's reign is becoming a disaster, say what you will about Braga, complain all you want about the episodes not having any lasting repercussions, at least they were, on average, better (or should I say more smartly) plotted and more maturely written. I lamented after DRIVE that Voyager was turning into a Saturday morning TV show, but even more simplistic and contrived that even Ira Steven Behr would be proud. This episode added to that impression. Here's the problem. It was a one joke premise. But in fairness, I was kind of looking forward to this episode. The complications of one of the aliens loving Seven and the Doctor falling in love himself is the kind of story that does have an inherent sense of fun, if done right. The problem is, Braga is gone-- so no more intelligent romantic comedies a la his SOMEONE TO WATCH OVER ME. And basically the problem here was that everything was so by the numbers right from the beginning and the Teaser that had absolutely no significance WHAT SO EVER that basically this episode could have been comprised of left over footage from other episodes and no one would have noticed that it was any more or less incoherent. On the other hand, Jeri Ryan-- yowza! I'm a Kate Mulgrew/Jennifer Lien kind of man myself, but I certainly didn't complain when she let her hair down. WHY CAN'T SWEEPS COME MORE OFTEN? On the other hand, Jeri Ryan-- ouch! This is what you get when you force actors under duress to do an extended imitation of another cast member famous for his overracting and histrionics. Frankly, Picardo's performances have been wearing thin for quite awhile now. Why force another actor to mimic them? I didn't think that the imitation was that great, but Jeri Ryan did accurately pin down some uh, "nuances" of Picardo's average performances, and frankly she did a great job (inadvertantly or not) at pointing out the flaws. As for the Tuvok thing. Couldn't we just have left it at TINKER TENOR DOCTOR SPY? I for one was satisfied. This was uninteresting, and throughout the whole holodeck solution, I kept waiting for someone to come up with a better idea. Well I bet the "my wife's ears are four millimeters longer" had the writers in stitches at least if no one else. Anyway, this was generic, unmemorable even though it squandered a potentially good romantic comedy set up, as well as squandering some good guest actors such as the always welcome Megan Gallagher by throwing them into alien characters we've all seen before. The alien "characters" and backstories we've been running into lately are almost as reused as their make-up. So I ask again. Doesn't ANYONE miss Braga? Eric, I want to print your message out! It took a long time, but finally it seems that we are allies, even if only begrudging ones. I did like parts of this show-- Jeri shaking her hair free-- her hair strewn over her face while talking to Voyager's crew from the Delta Flyer? What's not to like? Oh yeah-- the inane things she was actually saying when she was talking to the crew. My problem with Biller's reign is that the stories are so ignorant of their own potential it borders on being disgusting. Braga did have some of his own problems and he did simplify things where complications would have been so much more interesting, but he rarely put out anything like this. And he was concious of throwing in twists to the story to make it more interesting, even if that would last only to the end of the hour. This year we've only gotten stories stripped to their bare bones. I was going to let Biller have "Flesh and Blood" as his showcase. That's where we'd see what the differences between hima nd Braga really are, in the two hour movies that Braga has been famous for. But at this point I'm only looking forward to that episode's promise of snazzy special effects. Anyway, hearing that Braga will be back, if only in limited capacity is nothing but good news. Now how about Joe Menosky? Jason Re: BODY AND SOUL - Discussion Thread sorry ive been away--major computer probs ok, im disturbed--Body and Soul is the only VOY ep ive ever slept through first run...it was so slight and so silly..so UNpoignant or sexy or sweet... such a comedown from the previous RDM Someone to Watch Over Me... even the wonderful Meagan gallagher wasted. maybe it will be better round 2--but i doubt it! david g ps Inside man was much better--but, save for the Janeway impression...why am i watching a TNG repeat instead of VOY? No. I don't. Nyet, nyet, nyet. Keep him away! I happen to like the fact that the characters are the characters I love again. I'm thrilled that BB no longer has control over them. Let him do what he's able to do (write) and leave the producing to someone who gives a d@mn about who the characters are, and who at least wants to do something with them. I'll take the weak stories or frames any day over paper thin crew who are more often than not serviced to the plot and who almost are all but always secondary to the AOTW or the Boom of the week. I beat this dead horse for two years and I sure as spit won't be changing my mind any time soon. (Well, you looked! lurker to newbie Yes, I am a newbie. I mostly lurk, reading the posts when they are on the Coffee Nebula site. For some reason it never occurred to me there was an open message board until a month ago. LOL. So I finally found the place. I do drink coffee, half of the time Starbucks but sometimes, really bad, burnt hospital stuff. Yuck. Likes: B'Elanna Seven Harry - hey, Wang is trying, but sometimes the materials pretty lean. Yes, weird combination of likes. Dislikes: Tom's not high on my list right now because of some of his actions. Used to love the Doctor until he got the Seven of Nine season 4 syndrome. my nickname For some odd reason my high school friends just nicknamed me that. I guess it just stuck. As for coffee, see post below as well from Starbucks to upchucks (yuck) And I liked Janeway's bun of steel. bones =D Aw, c'mon, D'Alaire... not even just a little? Regarding characters taking on their previous pre-Braga characteristics, I am gradually finding myself forced to agree with Eric that Janeway is turning into Captain Psychopath... her behaviour in BODY AND SOUL-- namely the "let's shoot on ships just for target practice" attitude she seemed to sport felt like a very extreme exaggeration of Janeway's supposed "recklessness" to me (was that what they were going for-- kind of a take on her behaviour in "Imperfection"? I'm not sure). As for some of the others-- personally I have to admit that I've found a lot of them acting more to their set stereotype/cliches rather than acting more like the people they were supposedly established to be. Jason missed you davidg! hope your computer probs are over tf Nina, since I haven't figured out... how to post the same response in 2 places... let me direct you to my Psi Phi response to this question. (How do you guys "do" that, anyway?) D47 Foundation Imaging is the only good thing left.... ...on Voyager. But really they aren't the best at that even anymore. I watched one of the Farscape repeats today "The Way We Weren't" and i was surprised by my own junkie reaction! I want MORE!! Sigh....January is sooooo far away. But what i wanted to say is that Farscape has really closed the gap FX wise. Great sets, great stories, great FX and great characters. Farscape is everything Voyager WANTED to be but isn't. Eric Re: the line " but we treated him just like family". Cheri, you just answered one of Terry's burning questions... "why" was there a photonic rebellion? Even though her holographic nanny wasn't "treated" as a servant, that was in fact what he was, if not much more. A slave, a "disposable" person, as Guinan would have termed him. A slave by any other name, is still but a slave.... to both the master and the enslaved. The fact that the Medic couldn't "see" that, despite their months/years of war, was her bigotry. I liked the fact that these two aliens WERE portrayed so sympathetically, and that we never really got "too" involved in their "war". Any further "facts" of the Photonic insurgency would have detracted from the foreshadowing I suspect we are seeing down the road for this season, not to mention the dichotomy of two opposing "lifeforms". The Organic, and Photonic. As I alluded to this morning... I thought it was quite interesting that here we saw "organic" lifeforms (Tuvok)interacting on the holodeck ... ("playing" with the photonic universe) at the same time we saw a photonic (EMH) "lifeform" playing with the "organic" universe. Each "alien" to the other... and yet each interacting anyway. I especially enjoyed the conversation between EMH (as Seven) and the Medic, where the EMH tried to explain "why" the photonic Nanny would "run away"... "Perhaps he felt.... subjugated?" Oh.... what echoes of season 6's "Virtuoso"... when the EMH felt "trapped" and tried to run away. Janeway... in hindsight... now looks pretty astute to me. I wanted her to "guilt" the EMH into staying that day... but it wouldn't have "solved" the EMH's "feeling of Subjugation". HIS feeling that... valuable though he was... he was still "just" a slave to Voyager. By allowing him to "leave", Jnaeway took the choke collar and chain off her "property" and granted him something no other hologram, no other slave had. "Choice". D47 Re: Doc's response. Agree, Sherry. The Doc was like a kid with a brand new toy, and your Geordie allusion was perfect. (I never saw the "Tasha, you are just as beautiful as I imagined" line from that 1st season Q ep... when Q gave Geordie real eyes, but seeings how Tasha was one of the few women he ever got to see... well, his response was understandable.) There was a story I read YEARS ago... (Translate = before J216's parents ever married!) about children blind from birth, and their first reactions to seeing colors. They talked of trees as being sticks full of "green lights" rather than green leaves. My meaning is that to someone unused to a sensation, everything, even something as innocuous as Harry's "fight or flight" smell, would seem quite "noticable. Its only the EMH's bias towards Seven that makes him think her (and now his) sense of "smell" is superior to everyone else's. The other concept that I find fascinating, in this ep, is that the Doc did indeed "treat" his beloved Seven's body "as" a toy. Indulging in too many foods and synthahols and various "other" sensual pleasures, without even so much as a "by your leave". At least when it comes to the "holodeck", our organics are utilizing their "own" bodies to interact with the alien (photonic) universe. And the doc, when called upon the carpet for the SECOND time, doesn't have the grace to simply apologize and move on, he attacks his "hostess" for not "utilizing" her senses more than she already does. Excuse me? Where the heck does HE get off making personal judgements about HER choices? Our drone who he accuses of being more holographic (translate... unfeeling) has already fallen in love in the last 2 months (Axum), faced her mortality and thus found friendship in the eyes of her mentor (Janeway) and her student (Echeb) and comradeship in the voice of her "rival" (B'Elanna - Also in Imperfection). How DARE he deflect his licentiousness by degrading this woman? Methinks the Doc is "blaming" the Victim yet again... he's lucky Seven didn't "decompile him right there. But... because she didn't do that, and she did "learn" something from him about relationships... with the Alien Captain, and with the Alien Medic, and with "yours truly" the EMH himself. She learned, and at least she grew. I'm still unsure on whether the EMH did. D47 Hi bones! Do you post at another Trek board? I seem to remember a "bones" on one of the many other boards that I lurk at. Anyhoo, great to have another voice to add to the mix. tf LOL! Jason, you're a dear, but not even for your... ...thoughtful responses will I pull out that dead horse and grab Baktag by the ear to beat it. I ranted and whined enough to last me four series. I don't have the time or the heart to get into it again--which is another thing BB's reign took from me, the desire to bother. I'm just glad it's over. Ironically, after I made my post last night, I unpacked my videotapes and found my favorite episode of his: Cause and Effect. It reminded me all the more where BB's true inspiration lies. What a great episode! I couldn't help thinking that Trek has never had the guts to show flaws and even unpleasant sides of their characters like Farscape. Nor do they ever show true conflict between characters which isn't just based on misunderstanding or alien influence. (Not that I think every show has to have conflict. I find SG-1 cast very charming and believe they are the best part of the show.) I also watched that show and thought to myself that some Farscape actors are so superior to anyone on Voyager. Only Picardo could hold his own beside Claudia Black and Co. But maybe I'm being unfair. The writing is so much more intense and interesting than the pablum Voyager hacks put out. I was put off by the use of "puppets" myself when I first started watching. But now they have improved to the point that they are real characters. Pilot and Rygel look and move a lot more realistically than most Trek aliens. Their facial expressions (eye, lip, cheek movements, etc) are amazingly natural. But I guess the "puppet" word has negative baggage and implies silly kid's toys. Here's how, Deb. Copy the text of your message to the clipboard. Go to the other BBS; get ready to type in your message text there - and just paste the clipboard's contents instead. That's all there is to it; after that, post as usual! I think we're going to wind up agreeing to disagree...which is fine. Interesting discussion, anyway, as always! The EMH acted like a few other "health professionals" I have known, Deb. He set himself up as the ideal, and judged Seven's approach to life as inadequate because it didn't match his. EXCUUUSSSE ME, indeed! It's a basic human bias (and the Doctor is programmed to act like a human, after all) to believe that "what makes me happy would make you happy, too, if you would just try it." It's a good bias to outgrow...but many people never do. I'm glad it was your computer that was ill, and not you, david g! Since you always see something I missed, I'd be very interested in more detail as to why "B&S" (gotta love those initials) was such a sleeping potion for you. Re: BODY AND SOUL - Discussion Thread My biggest problem, huge, really: the relegation of Tuvok's Ponn Farr (spelling?) to a B-story, and a very small one at that!!! First off, I find the idea of using a hologram to solve what is supposed to be a highly personal and quasi-religious experience repulsive. I mean, it's not like he's just getting his rocks off, you know?? You want to relieve your sexual tensions, play out a few fantasies on the holodeck, fine, and hey, I'd probably be right there with you. But to use it to quench the Pon Farr fires? Total dissing of what it's supposed to be about!!! I mean, think back, guys...remember TOS? Pon Farr would kill the Vulcan who ignored its call. Kirk put his career and his life on the line for Spock. Spock was chastised for bringing two outsiders to the ceremony. Pon Farr is shrouded in ritual, hidden, kept secret, personal and somewhat shameful to Vulcans because it forces them to acknowledge their lust and passions...it's about manipulation, power, lust, destiny... Do you see what I'm getting at? What could have been a wonderful story if the writers had bothered to strain their brains was shoved into a minor titilation piece for the YAMs who are in charge of STAR TREK these days. As to Story "A": well, it was supposed to be silly and fun, but something was missing...it was no BRIDE OF CHAOTICA or TINKER TAILOR DOCTOR SPY, that's for sure. I think the main problem is that it didn't take place on VOYAGER itself...I don't know why they just didn't figure out a way to put the Doctor into Seven on the ship...it could have simple enough as hiding him from those "anti-photonic" AOTWs...but it would have been much more fun and a lot more interesting to see the crew interact with Doctor/Seven than some stupid AOTWs we don't care a hoot about. In all fairness to Jeri Ryan, she did a smashing job "impersonating" the doctor. And it was fun to see Seven let her hair down, figuratively and literally. But once again, had to settle for the character moments and the little nuances the crew/cast are putting into their characters these days...that part, at least was very satisfying. Ah, well. If only, right, guys? Mindy Well said, Mindy. "Repulsive" is a good word for it. Re: "but I laughed." Oh Thank god! I might confuse some of you, considering my first post, but I did laugh at many of the scenes in INSIDE MAN...guess my infantile humor is showing, but I got a kick out of the "What's that smell?" scene between Doc/Seven and Harry, with Harry sniffing under his arms...hey, I laugh at fart jokes, too...:eek: Mindy Re: BODY AND SOUL - Discussion Thread Right. I'm going to say a couple of things I've been thinking about for a couple of days ever since this discussion thread started. Bear in mind that this is a general comment, not specific to the ep, which I haven't seen. Mindy, you mention how seriously the original series took this subject, and you also put your finger exactly on why it was so dramatic - it wasn't actually a drama revolving around Spock at all. It was ALL about Kirk's dilemma. So Spock would have died if he hadn't got to Vulcan. So what? It was just a convenient dramatic way to force Kirk to make a decision that could ruin his career. All the dilemmas in the episode were Kirks, NOT Spocks. Spock was just a passive element that was being acted upon, and moving the story forward. He couldn't help his actions, or make any decisions for himself. Kirk had to choose whether to disobey orders or sacrifice his friends life. Kirk had to choose, having been tricked into being T'Pring's champion, whether to go ahead with the fight in the hope that he might be able to resolve it in some way. Ever since that fateful episode, and particularly since finding out that there would be a VULCAN on board Voyager, fans have been waiting with eager anticipation for the mythical pon farr episode to materialize, but honestly, if they had done a whole episode, what could they really have done with it that they haven't done before? In the original series the solution WAS at Kirk's disposal. He COULD get Spock to Vulcan. Voyager can't, under any circumstances, suddenly get Tuvok to Vulcan. If the writers stayed totally firm to the original series' interpretation of the Ponn Farr, the logical, and ONLY resolution of Tuvok's Ponn Farr in that situation is that he would die. End of story, end of Tuvok. I don't call that much of a drama, even if they had half an hour of angst about it first, that to my mind would be skating far too close to the awful spectre of 'Soap Opera'. It's all very well to do that kind of thing in fan fiction, but it would be tedious in the extreme actually on an episode! So, we've established with Vorik's previous ponn farr that not returning to Vulcan does not mean automatic death. What does that leave us with? The basic situation is still the same; resolve the ponn farr or die. The dramatic possibilities are actually limited. Either he gets over it with meditation (and I certainly don't want a whole episode devoted to Tuvok meditating!) or he doesn't. If he doesn't, either he fights or he mates. His wife is unavailable. Mating with a 'real' person, again, is okay in fan fiction, but on the show, him ending up with any female, let alone having the captain willing to give him a mercy bonk, is icky in the extreme. They could have done a plak tow fight, but they've done that twice already and I'm sure tons of people would have bleated about them being repetitive if they had!! Do you see what I'm trying to get to? In itself, there is no dramatic potential in this situation which doesn't descend into a kind of emotional overload which really wouldn't work outside fan fiction. I think it was probably very sensible of them to have relegated this to a B plot. They wrote themselves into to corner over thirty years ago, and they've been avoiding the issue as much as possible because they knew that whatever they ended up doing, it would displease 90% of the people who were anticipating it. I think it was brave of them to address the issue at all. Not even a little Jason We are well shed of him as far as I am concerned. I'm with D'Alaire on this one and also won't go into why I am so greatful he is gone. We simply gotta disagree here I guess Shadda Begonia, good observation and remarks I agree with you. The writers did pigeonhole themselves and if the writers did devote an entire episode to Tuvok's PonFar, it would have been too much. Thanks for bring out the Kirk decision from TOS. It has been sooooooo long since I have seen that episode. Di I'm having a pon farr problem here In one breath we say it is private and special, in the next we want to see it all in all it's gory details. I know no one really wants to see that, but what more could we see? I thought it was tastefully done, but I did think there should have been more to it. It was just Tuvok and Tom, that was good, but they could have taken 5 minutes from the A story and given it to the B story. We are using todays values to determine how holodecks should be used. Remember 300 years ago if a woman showed her ankle she was wonton. In 300 years the using of the holodeck in the manner they use it here could be as common as bikinies and group therapy. Can you imagine how appalled audiences in Shakespear's day would have been with the movie "Shakespear In Love", starting with the fact that actors are held in such high esteem today. Just a few thoughts. I have now used up all my thoughts for the week, thank goodness it's Friday. Shadda Gee, I wish I'd read this before I posted my comments below. You said it all Begonia. We also don't know how much customs might have changed since Spock went through his "mating moment". Not on Vulcan of course, but perhaps Starfleet has finally decided to put something in place since more and more Vulcans are a part of Starfleet now. If I recall correctly, Spock was the only Vulcan on a Federation vessel that had a multispecies crew. In fact wasn't he the first Vulcan in Starfleet. Not the Federation, they were in the Federation, but not in Starfleet. I'm fuzzy on this. Shadda Re: I'm having a pon farr problem here I don't think the objections of most people to the pon farr resolution is at all based on 20th century morality or prudery. I know that my objections to it are simply that it ought to be IMPOSSIBLE, based on previous canon, for pon farr to be resolved in a holodeck. Vulcans are TELEPATHS, and most specifically (note the mind meld) touch telepaths. The mating is established in childhood with a mind meld that links the couple together! It absolutely makes no nevermind how much the hologram looked like T'Pel - the bond is telepathic and the moment he touched her he should got an absolute sense that THERE'S NOTHING THERE. This simply would not work. Far better for TPTB to have left this issue alone. We could assume that the seven years is an approximation, or that the time between pon farrs expands as the character ages, anything other than this farce that totally negated everything we've been told about the pon farr. Joyce And Begonia as well, for the most part. Based on everything we have seen in Trek previously there was absolutely no way for Tuvok to resolve the pon farr in the holodeck. Further, as Begonia pointed out, there was simply no way to resolve the pon farr within the accepted parameters that hasn't already been done before or are, like the Janeway-helps-out or Tom/B'Elanna/Tuvok threesome themes popular in fanfic, simply not within the realm of TV possibility. Joyce is right when she says it would have been far better for TPTB to have left this issue alone. I've got no problem with assuming, as Joyce suggested, that the seven years is an approximation, or that the time between pon farrs expands as the character ages, or that Tuvok, before returning to Starfleet, got together with his Vulcan family physician and cooked up some treatment that would allow him to control the onset of pon farr. Vickie Re: Gee, I wish I'd read this before I posted my comments below. Yes, at the time I believe he was the only Vulcan in Starfleet who had chosen to serve aboard a non-Vulcan ship. In fact, I got the impression that the vulcan ships which existed at the time of the original Enterprise were Vulcan national ships, science vessels, and not necessarily Starfleet vessels at all. He may even have been the first Vulcan to graduate from Starfleet Academy. Of course, the other significant point which differentiates him from both Tuvok and Vorik is that he wasn't vulcan! He was HALF vulcan, a fact which is often conveniently ignored when discussing vulcan matters, but was the defining element of the character itself. He was there in the series, not because he was an 'alien' but because he was a 'hybrid', and Gene Roddenbery wanted a character that personified the internal conflicts that humans have to deal with. You know, id/ego/superego, that sort of thing. Re: I would even have been happy to accept the notion that the Doc on board Voyager had come up with a way to delay the onset of the pon farr. But again, as I understand it there was a reference in the show that the Doc HAD been working on the problem, so perhaps, although he had hoped to come up with a delaying agent or a cure, he came up with something that MITIGATED the condition enough that a solution such as combined meditation and holodeck masterbation was then enough to deal with the condition. Welcome, bones! It's always great to hear from yet another voice. Ronit Deb, you just summed up why Virtuoso is such a crucial ep! Yeehaw! Ronit What Nina said. Glad to hear you haven't fallen down the dissertation rabbithole either. Ronit Re: Virtuoso / Yeehaw... Ronit, are you one of those Virtuoso fans? I thought david g was the only one "over the top" about that ep? ( "I didn't know we were on a first name basis" D47 Re: "The EMH acted like..." Gulp.... Uhhh, Nina... thanks for pointing out... its a basic HUMAN bias, and not one just limited to "health professionals".
D47 No offense intended, to be sure, Deb. However - I have a mentally ill family member, as I've mentioned before. I know from the care he's received over many years (all my life; he's my dad) that when a health professional does NOT have enough personal maturity to set that bias aside, it can be a real problem because of the power a physician or a therapist wields. I wouldn't have put it as I did if the person displaying the bias in "Body and Soul" (displaying it with apparent total lack of awareness it WAS a bias) had been Chakotay, or B'Elanna, or Janeway. Since it was the Doctor...I remembered a few real-life therapists who IMO had the same problem, and were just as unaware of it. That's all! Now, how do I paste in one of those smilies (smileys)? Thanks you guys! Youre lovely. I missed you too! NIM Re: An Amusing Little Episode! Di, youve made me want to give the ep a 2nd chance...! some lovely observations--thanks. david g Re: BODY AND SOUL: Excellent point, Begonia!! And actually, I do agree with you about the "been there, done that" thing...one of the reasons I didn't strongly object to not seeing the marriage ceremony in DRIVE was because I felt we had "been there, done that"...I mean, I did miss the marriage ceremony, but I would have been more satisfied if we had at least seen the reception and the crew's reactions to the marriage, if any; I mean, we didn't even see Harry's reaction to the news, and I'm assuming that he was the best man!...anyway, for some reason I have just been strongly reacting to "real relationships" between "organic" and "photonic" people, at least the way they are portrayed on VOYAGER...I think it's because it's the way the lazy writers of ST deal with what they disparagingly call "soap opera" issues, even though they don't seem to get that what made AMOK TIME so powerful were the "soap opera" issues that came up between Kirk, Spock, McCoy, and even T'Pring and her gigolo...I remember that I hated the Ponn Far scene in THE SEARCH FOR SPOCK because it just seemed to be thrown in to titillate...I can't help but wonder how the writers of FARSCAPE would have handled the scenario--BTW, hypocritically, I forget the Doctor is "photonic" and I cheer for him and his unrequited love of Seven, and I'd love to see that addressed again more thoroughly...at any rate, I just think that Pon Farr (will somebody please tell me the right spelling??) is such a great dramatic tool that I didn't like seeing it relegated to the "B" story...or, to be more specific, seeing it given as short a thrift as it was given...I mean, Janeway cut off the power to the holodeck just at a critical moment for Tuvok, and did we ever see any ramifications of that? So how did he "get better", especially as the medication the Doctor had prepared hadn't worked and thus necessitated the use of the "holo-wife" in the first place? At any rate, I think the whole episode was a great idea not done terrifically well, unfortunately...btw, I do not think this is the fault of RDM, I thought he did a great job directing...the episode was just lacking in a lot of ways, that's all. No offense received , to be sure, Nina Sorry, Kiddo, just wanted to "yank" your chain over your phraseology. Jokes about the "health care professional" are as ubiquitous as those about those in the legal profession, and for similar reasons. People placed in a dependent position, whether in the hospital or the courtroom, need to rely on someone else to look out for their interests, and that loss of control is frightening. Especially when the person they are now relying upon to guide them through the maze, is themselves "immature" in the ways of the world or profession. Unfortunately, not everyone in either profession, (heck, not everyone in "any" profession) can lay claim to universal common sense or even good manners. The Doc, this week, did display the "worst" of his "programming" (can't in fairness call it his occupation or his "species") in how he treated Seven's body as a "host", or Seven's psyche after he'd been "called on the carpet" for his actions. Afterall, what exactly was HE complaining about, anyway? Heck... its not HER fault she FELL IN LOVE with Axum 8 YEARS before she met the Doc. Its not her fault those feelings resurfaced and she fell in love with him again. To hear HIM tell it, this "woman" has in effect scorned new sensations (and by extension his advances) because SHE will not allow her sensual side to awaken. Trouble is, it has awakened, it just wasn't with whom he desired. Nina, you are right to suggest this "bias" on his part probably lies in the direction of those human programmers that created him... and yet... that may be a little "species" chauvinistic. I prefer to blame it not on his programmer's "species", nor on the EMH's occupation, but rather squarely upon the shoulders of the one attempting to claim sentience. The Doc himself. To he who is given great power, great responsibility is also required. That's probably where many of those therapists you've encountered over the years "fell down" on the job. They too forgot that great tenet. The Doc has the "Power" and knowledge of his profession, and a "Power" (since Virtuoso) normally relegated only to the "sentient"... of "Choice". Despite all that power, it required Harry to remind him not to "hurt" Seven in the security field, and Seven herself to remind her how many times his liberties with her body were hurting her. I still maintain "Seven" grew the most, despite the "paucity" of "her" appearence on last week's show. How so? She didn't slam dunk the Doc into the waste replicator for treating her like an amusement park. She didn't walk away from their relationship when "he" acted 10 times the fool... (How many times has SEVEN done THAT with Janeway... and Janeway always took her back?) She didn't completely disregard the kernals of truth hiding in his ghastly accusations... As I think I've mentioned before... I happen to LIKE Seven... and I really liked what happened to her in this episode. TPTB are finally letting her advance beyond the drone of "yesteryear", and I heartily approve. Sorry, Eric & Jason... D47 Re: Second chances... to always give Voyager a "2nd chance", after you came to new appreciation for "Unimatrix Zero", last season! How soon the youth forget.
D47 The Way We Weren't is one of my favorite Farscape episodes. I thought the whole cast did a great job of being another character. Incidentally, the puppets also bothered me at first and still do on occasion, but not so much now. Farscape isn't afraid to say or do anything as far as I can tell. The characters are so much more interesting than any on Voyager. It's too bad, really, since they are sort of in the same situation being lost and trying to get home. ande Deb, I really like your comments on Seven. (Not to mention the "treating her body like an amusement park" line!) She IS getting more interesting, isn't she? Of course the Doctor is the one to blame for his actions, and I'm hoping that we'll see him grow up enough to realize that Seven's approach to life is - well, hers. The thing I like most about her is that she hasn't leaped to become "as much like the people around me as possible" during her transformation from drone to human. She's changed gradually, and she's made choices (some of them conscious, some of them - what's the word I want here, is it subliminal?) about adopting other people's ideas and values. She's not a person who automatically accepts anyone else's right to judge her, and I like that, too. That's why she's still "Seven of Nine," and may never want to go back (so to speak) to being "Annika Hansen." Sometimes I like her for not worrying too much about being likeable, if that statement makes any sense at all! Gee, where did all that come from? Re: BODY AND SOUL: Excellent point, Begonia!! Sorry, I have to disagree that Amok Time had any real elements of 'soap opera' in it at all. But then my definition of 'soap opera' is overblown drama, and if that is the Star Trek powers that be definition of it then I think they are right to be disparaging about it. If Amok Time had been a soap opera, Kirk's decision to disobey orders would have led to a court martial, and a long, drawn out trial with angst coming out of everyones ears. Kirk, Spock and McCoy would have had long moments of standing around misunderstanding each other and jumping to the wrong conclusions and eventually it would all have ended in some sort of group hug with everybody declaring their feelings for everybody. There would have been at least three more complications involving the minor characters down on the planet, and T'Pau and/or Stonn would have been revealed as someones long lost brother or sister. The mere thought of it causes shivers down my spine and a distinct feeling of nausea. What Amok Time was was a very finely judged and paced drama, which very carefully framed all the dramatic elements that it needed to work, and ruthlessly excised all the other issues and dealt with them in a sentence or left them in the background. I really don't think, in the Delta Quadrant that the Ponn Farr CAN be a dramatic tool, precisely because drama has to be resolvable, or it becomes tragedy. Whatever you do, while the ship is in the Delta Quadrant, to try to resolve it, is going to leave the majority of the viewers unsatisfied. It can't be solved, except unsatisfactorily. Either it has to be a medication, or a cop out, or a tragedy. The reason they combined this subplot with the main plot was also pretty darn obvious; the subplot was just a set up for a situation where having to turn off the holodeck caused dramatic tension. Just as in Amok Time, they treated it as a convenience. I am sure there are ways even a B plot about Ponn Farr could have been done better. But not necessarily in episodic television. Sometimes I think we ask too much of them and forget that they are working within an incredibly restrictive dramatic structure, where the length, not only of the whole, but of each segment, is dictated to them, almost to the second. Where climaxes have to arrive at exactly the right moment. Star Trek is under far more restrictions than products like Farscape and even Bab5. It is long established and high profile, and it will never be able to get away with the kind of risk taking that the smaller, independently produced products do. It's not right, and it's not emotionally satisfying. But network television is a medium that exists to sell advertising. If it produces art at the same time, it's more by luck than judgement. I agree with you about the Search for Spock. Totally unecessary. Slowed the show down, and I didn't even get what was going on first couple of times I watched it, it was very ponderous and pretentious. Of course, it, too was being simply used as a dramatic device, a causal factor. The officer had to stay behind to deal with it while the civilian went off and took watch. If it had been the other way round, would the three of them have been caught by the Klingon? I should coco. In that sense, the Ponn Farr scene was used as a set-up device to lead directly to the death of Kirk's son. I do think, as I said in a different post, that it's necessary to accept in Tuvok's case, that the Doc's medication was at least partially effective. I do wonder if, just as in Blood Fever when Vorik looked like he was cured and then snapped again later, whether we've actually heard the last of this story, but I still have serious reservations about the concept of making any more of it than they have. A drama is unsatisfying, however much furniture chewing is involved, unless it can be satisfactorily resolved. In this case, I don't believe that there ARE any satisfactory resolutions! Pardon my rambling, it's late and I should be asleep. In fact, I probably am without realising it.... You also have to bear in mind that we have a very small statistical sample We have Spock, a half Vulcan, undergoing the pon farr twice, once in "Amok Time" and once in "The Search For Spock". (And in both cases I guess you could say that it was his first time, sort of.) We have Vorik, a young Vulcan, experiencing his first pon farr in "Blood Fever". And now we have Tuvok experiencing pon farr after undergoing it several times previously. Not really a great range of Vulcan males by which to judge the impact of the condition on the race as a whole. You can make a case for Spock being less affected by the pon farr because of his dual heritage, but who's to say that there aren't inbuilt survival mechanisms in the purebred Vulcan that he lacked, which made it more difficult for him to survive the experience without undergoing one of the more extreme forms of purging it? The first pon farr might also be more powerful and more overwhelming as an experience; at the very least the sufferer has to be less experienced in ways of dealing with it. And, other than what we've observed on screen, we still know very little about the pon farr, simply because the Vulcans are so very secretive about it. We know only what Spock, his family, Vorik, and Tuvok have told us. How can we know therefore that because the only options open to Spock in "Amok Time" were fight, mate or die, the same limited choices apply to Tuvok? The Doctor himself said that there was very little information in the medical database to supplement his own observations. And Tuvok did tell us that meditation was an option, as well as mating and fighting. Sure, neither he nor Vorik held out much hope for its success in the younger man's case, but being older, more experienced, and more disciplined than Vorik, meditation is likely to be more of an option for Tuvok than it was for Vorik. We've seen him meditating a lot over the past couple of years. Might some of that at least have been down to him trying to stave off the onset of his inevitable pon farr, and to minimise its impact once it did come? We've done the fighting option twice... any more would seem unoriginal. Mating with a fellow crewman is definitely fanfic territory, and not something you're likely to see on mainstream television any time soon. So you're probably pretty much forced back to meditation and/or holodeck masturbation. I know that the mental link is supposed to be an important part of the pon farr mating drive... but there's not much of a mental link involved in the other main "cure", the fight to the death. If that can purge the madness, then why not allow someone to meditate themselves into a state where they can supply the "feel" of their partner's mind from their own memories, and let the holodeck image supply the rest. I'm one of those who wanted to see the issue of Tuvok's pon farr dealt with on screen, because even if you were to say that the seven year cycle was an approximation and that he could have had longer before needing to undergo it, it's still statistically likely that his time would fall within the period of Voyager's journey. But I've also only wanted it to be dealt with in passing, acknowledged as a hurdle to be overcome, rather than to become the central focus of an episode. You're right that it can only ever be skirted around, with all of the exceptions and get-out clauses being played for all they're worth, if it wasn't to end in tragedy and Tuvok's death. B Plot is probably the best place for it. But I'll be interested to see the episode itself, to see exactly how the pon farr was handled, in the light of all the difficulties involved in handling it at all. Jules Could have been worse! In Tuvoks Ponn Far they could have dressed Vorik up in a blonde wig and a catsuit! Tim Re: Could have been worse! I'm sure it wouldn't have been totally beyond them to give him a sex change! Given the extreme malleability of DNA in Star Trek Canon, that is! Deb, I am a huge Virtuoso fan! I seem to remember debating the issue with you last year - at least I think it was you, I think it was last year - <grin> - those senior moments o' mine.... Besides being bring down the house funny, IMO, Virtuoso is a crucial ep b/c in it we see Janeway finally and truly 'emancipate' the Doc. Regardless of whether or not he's sentient, or a spoiled brat or an outrageous prima donna, regardless of whether or not she's insane to let her only physician go, the fact is that during that episode the Doc finally has total freedom to choose what he will do with his life. I think it's an episode that Voyager *had* to do. Ronit Good grief. The fourth option! They could have just flagged down a passing Borg cube, hijacked it, transwarped back to find the Vidiians, and got them to tweak Tuvok's DNA so that the pon farr was no longer a life threatening condition. Or only occurred once every 47 years. Whatever. No more implausible than some of the other things they've done with the crew's DNA, after all. Jules Thesaurus "are" us... or should that be "is I"??? Subliminal? Sounds good to me, or are you reaching for something more concrete... like "subconscious"? D47 Yes, I am a "Voyager". Re: huge Virtuoso fan! Debate with "ME"??? Nah.... "couldn't" have been me... I liked Virtuoso, just not "as much" as other eps. As I've already noted, the things I love about it are not just the humor, but those quiet introspective moments when we truly do see how much these people (and hologram"s") mean to one another. (Heck, I even liked the "fan references" that so many people got into a snit over... but then again I am a Voyageraholic.) D47 Voy addicted since 1995 A variation on that fourth option is just what we need, right? So here it is! Seven wasn't on board yet during "Blood Fever," IIRC. Seven is always "remembering" something that's very, very useful, out of her endless supply of Borg data. Why didn't Seven just remember the Borg cure for pon farr, then? (How serious am I? A good question. I'm not certain of that myself...!) You're right! The Borg have assimilated Vulcans. (Quite a long time ago, since they're Species 3259 and humans are merely Species 5618.) And since the Borg reproduce by assimilation rather than any of that messy mating stuff... clearly they must have had to come up with a cure for the pon farr by now. Unless they just let their Vulcan assimilatees die within the allotted seven years, or only assimilate the females. Nah. That'd be inefficient. They must have found a cure, with the knowledge of 10,000 species to tap. Hey, this plotting stuff's easy. Any fool can do it. Jules Ok, A Little More Soul, but not Full-Bodied In fairness to the ep, I fell asleep cuz id had a rough day...watching through the ep in its entirety, i enjoyed it a bit more--which means i no longer think it's a S7 debacle. i thought jeri ryan's performance as Doc was a bit wobbly and strained at first. but when she began orgasmically devouring cheesecake and gulping down synthahol, she was firmly back on track. i really like Ryan--i just think the strain of the premise showed at first. the chief horror of this ep for me was the awful actor in the romantic guest star lead. for a show with such a crackerjack cast, why are the male guest satrs in romantic roles both so ugly and so unappealing? there have been exceptions..but am i wrong? more later! david g Re: romantic male guest stars Have to agree david. I saw UMZ for the first time last week and couldn't get over Axum's blandness. And the less said about Michael Sullivan the better (though I suspect it was more the role and his lack of chemistry with Janeway than poor acting skills). I thought Henry(?) Janeway was all wrong too. For me, Kashyk's still one of the few standouts in this category. tf Debate revisited Hey, Ronit... finally got into Mac's archive to check the Virtuoso thread (was afraid maybe I "dissed" the ep the first time through, if your memory was right.) I think the debate you remember was in another thread, but I doubt it was with me. Surprise! I was "positive" in my review of that ep last year. (If we debated, we must have been on the same side. D47 who have been the romantic male guest stars with any potential? VOY has had superb male guest stars, like Brad Dourif, the actor who plays Annorax...but romantic leads? A real failing there! The dude in prime Factors is a perfecly acceptable actor, but that bun makes him look grandmotherly, and hardly a sexual threat for Janeway. i like the actor in Remember that B'Ellana-as-alien betrays... i like Max in Equinox. Kashyk is terrific. But everyone else? Sexless, ugly, and untalented!!! Am i wrong? david g Only Kellis was attractive... Max was neither physically attractive or pleasant person. At least with a villian like Dukat there is a personal magnestism that makes them attractive. Blink of an Eye had Two cuties, only one got to meet the "Queen". Kes' Boyfriend in "Darkling" was tall dark and handsome...but he was Kes' object of affection. Hmmmm, too tired to really rack my brain on this subject... I'm afraid that once I look at the dude sitting 3 feet to Janeway's left... all other "guest stars" fade into the woodwork.
D47 Personally, I thought that Max, while not conventionally "pretty", was HOT. Tall, dark, rugged, exactly the kind of guy that does it for me. Kashyk wasn't my type, but it was his personality that was so magnetic, and the game that he & Janeway played out was wonderful. OTOH, I must indeed say that Voyager doesn't get the cutest guest-stars for romantic purposes. I wonder if that says something about how we'll view beauty in the future? Nah, probably the really really attractive actors were too expensive. *snerk* AC Chakotay & Harry, of course!;) On a more serious note, you are really on to something, david g. Could it be (about to exhibit serious ageism here) that the tendency to cast males in leadership roles leads to greying male guest stars? Not that there's anything wrong with grey per se, but in the male actor species it is often accompanied by a pot belly and yes, there is something wrong with that. Which brings us, of course, to our very first 'romantic' guest star -- the dude who played Mark. Ugh. How on earth could anyone saddle our Auburn Queen with that guy?? What was he, Accountant-of-the-Year? If you consider the fact that Jeri Taylor was running the show then, and then consider the fact that in Mosaic we learn she's the same age as Will Riker -- and that guy looks like Riker's elder uncle -- it makes no sense. But yeah, she wrote Mosaic later, so who the heck knows... On the bright side - don't forget Annorax's second in command, Obrist. He was nice-looking. Ronit *&^% Long-term memory functions. Time for an upgrade. Well, Deb, I'm soooooooo glad I didn't put money on those recollections. And thank you for digging through the archive! The debate I seem to recall (assuming it was me, assuming it was a debate!) involved a variation on whether or not the Doc was a spoiled, self-centered ungrateful..... I believe it referenced both Tinker Tailor & Virtuoso. Of course, I'm probably imagining this too, but in that discussion someone pointed out that emotionally the Doc is much more of a teenager than an adult -- an opinion which I think has a lot to do with what happened in Body & Soul. Ronit Older & Maturing romantic male guest stars Well, considering that the average age of Voyager viewers is 39 could be the reason TPTB cast the maturing male actors. Personally, as a maturing female, I find the greying, well experienced actor appealing over the 20 something stud. Maybe that is why I find McNeill extremely attractive as he "matures." Beltran and even Picardo are attractive to me. But, I view Harry as cute and good looking, but not heart thumping attractive. Just some random throught from a 40 something. Di The guy from Remember and Kashyk are about all I can, uh, remember too. I'm afraid that both Prime Factors' Gath and B'Elanna's ex boyfriend Max would have me running screaming in the opposite direction. I know you were talking romantic leads rather than eye candy, but my two most memorable male guest stars that weren't character parts are still both from TNG. Yep, that long ago. Oh no. Wait. I've just thought of another one, and he was a romantic lead type guest star. The only male guest I've ever seen sweep one of the female regulars off her feet and understood why it might happen: Vedek Bareil. I still haven't forgiven DS9 for killing him off... Jules Nor have I, Jules. Bareil was a major turn-on, and I don't mean just in an eye-candy sense. Kashyk? Dangerous and sexy more than handsome. It was the chemistry (Mark Harelik and KM) that did it for me, I think. I didn't mind the guy who played Mark the few times we saw him. His gray looked premature to me; he didn't make me feel as if Kathryn's significant other belonged to her parents' generation. (I type this with MY head proudly turned almost completely silver, you understand! - but hey, mine's "premature," too.) Henry Janeway just didn't do it for me, nor did Gath. It's not just the actor's apparent age, I think. It's (repeating myself here!) chemistry. Or lack thereof. With KM. But, Bareil did return, i.e. his alternate universers counterpart That gave me hope, since he saw in the orb that he would marry and have children with Kira. I always saw Kira with him and not with Odo. Now, I really liked the Odo character, but I never saw anything romantic about this couple. They just didn't fit lit The Vedic and Kira. Di Actually, i thought Mark was pretty attractive, for a dog sitter Then again, we DO see him in Persistence of Vision, he's not as attractive--but that's because he doesnt have a spark with Janeway-- and this viewer at least is too firmly J/Ced to concede. The actor playing Gath was definitely creepy looking and acting--which i thought was terrific, like the episode, because it signified the decay, the rot, of the too decadent, pleasure-obsessed Sikkaians (sp?). yep, Obrist was sexy...ive always liked the Bajoran dude from Nothing Human and Repression. but so often a poorly cast guest star ruins the emotional connection I have to an episode. for instance, the actor who plays the sympathetic Monaean in Thirty Days screams unsympathetic sulleness (he's better on Sex and the City); by that same token, the Good Shepherd gaggle was EXPERTLY cast (though i still find Bill Telfer too young)...Manu Intiraymi is superb--but the boy who played First in Collective was godawful and kept reminding me of how silly the episode was. Acting isnt everything--but it's hugely important, esp to a medium like TV, not principally a director's medium. david g Looks like Kate has .... ......traded in Kashyyk, Holostud, Mark and chuckles the knuckles for JAMES BOND!! (or his 18th Century counterpart!) http://www.geocities.com/Hollywood/Lot/4619/manionsp/manionsp.htm Tim PS: Warning to Mike. Careful of your iron lung. Kates neckline plunges quite dramatically in one of the pics. We don't want the old boy to get too exited. Nit I noticed on second viewing Janeway's opening log not long before they run into the AOTWs says they've completed a maintenance layover & will met up with the Flyer in 48 hours. Shouldn't someone at the maintenance facility have told them about this civil war nearby, including the no photonics allowed attitude? Tim...You have discovered my Niece's new FAV miniseries! I introduced her to "Manions of America" this summer, after the CNDC2K trip... and she fell in "love" with its TWO costars. (Note to Ginny and the wonder toddler... get them early AND train them young... the future of Sci-Fi... not to mention Mulgrew fanclubs.)
D47 Bareil - Yum yum I loved Bareil. He was so perfect. Not only was he very easy on the eyes and highly aestically pleasing (whereas Max I find visually striking in a negative sense), Bareil was incredibly supportive. He is exactly the type of man B'Elanna deserves. Romantic male guest stars? Ugh... I must say that in the last seven years of VOYAGER, there has not been one male guest star that has really floated my boat...the guy who came closest to doing so was Janeway's holodeck bartender, but perhaps because I found the whole story ridiculous, and I've never been one to react to purely looks...well, except for Redford--the only blonde to really do it for me,btw--and Tom Cruise in TOP GUN...I couldn't really look on him as anything but stupid. Now FARSCAPE on the other hand...what is it with all those male Peacemakers? Must be a genetic requirement to be hot!!!!! Or is it just those leather dusters??? Mincy Vedek Bareil, Dukat, Nick Locarno... ...hmmm, hmmm...yes, yes, yes!!! But the problem is that none of them are on VOYAGER...okay, RDM is, but he's a regular, and we are talking guest stars here, right? Y'know who else was kind of cute/good-looking on DS9? The captain of the Red Squad ship in that story with Nog and Jake...know which one I mean? Mindy You know, Begonia, I'm not sure if we... ..actually disagree...when I used the term "soap opera," I used it with the adjective "disparaging," (I think) in referring to how it appears at least some of the writers on ST have no interest in writing about dramatic issues if they don't revolve around phasers, warp coils, or time displacements...in other words, any issue that brings up real conflict or emotions is labeled "soap opera" by VOYAGER writers; because they can't write truly dramatic situations... AMOK TIME was dramatic, as was JOURNEY TO BABEL, MIRI, CHARLEY X, CITY ON THE EDGE OF FOREVER, and especially THE NAKED TIME...because they all contained the "human" element of passions between people in one way or another, and done quite well, inmo, btw... If that's soap opera to you, so be it. But I really think we're arguing about the same side of the coin. Mindy And I thought I was the only one who liked that mirror universe Bareil story It kept me going through the latter part of DS9, anyway. And I confess that I needed some motivating, since I was less than happy about what they did to Dukat, and couldn't stomach the pairing up of Kira and Odo. That's one relationship that should have ended as it began: as an unrequited, one-sided attraction on Odo's part for Kira. I too like Odo, and I adored Lwaxana Troi's passion for him, but I could never see Kira magically transforming her previously established taste in men to pair off with him. It was distinctly out of character for someone that strong minded and definite in her views to change like that. I can see her being kind to him after finding out, I can see their friendship becoming even closer. But I still can't see them as a couple, even now. If not Bareil, Kira should have ended up with another Bajoran in a position of power and/or consequence. They seemed to be the type of men she was attracted to. Jules You knocked the nail on the head! They tried that solution with Vorik - it only gave him the time and oppertunity to sabotage the ship to get down planetside to find Torres. As he said then "She is not real!" The mating bond is the essential element in their relationships. Unless a hologram could evolve so far - like V'ger in the 1st ST Movie - into a consciousness then the bond could not be established. Prefered to see Tuvok overcome Pon Farr by mediatation and alot of physical exercise: I would have liked to see him spar against Chucks. Work out the agression. The alternative of finding a mate (unless Janeway volunteered is unlikely!) was unlikely and since he is married what would he do afterwards, perhaps he could provoke fight him to break the fever. (she would have 50/50 chance of sucess). Tuvvy in turmoil - what an oppertunity for bringing my beloved Vorik back for an appearance. (He is the only other Vulcan on Voy.). OT: PK hotties Hey Mindy I like your taste in eye candy. I can't wait until February when I get to see Lani Tupu (Commander Crais) up close and personal (at a convention tf who thinks Spike is TV land's the most stylish wearer of the leather duster Lady K'Zan wrote: Prefered to see Tuvok overcome Pon Farr by mediatation and alot of physical exercise: I would have liked to see him spar against Chucks. Work out the agression. Wow, that's a great idea. One: it settles the pon farr in a way that is consistent with previous experience. Two: the Tuvok/Chakotay conflict is another one of those promising story lines that TPTB just dropped. I could easily imagine a friendly little boxing match getting more and more serious until Tuvy and Chak were just letting loose and airing all those never-resolved greivances. Now this is a storyline that is absolutely crying out for fan fic! Vickie Re: Vedek Bareil, Dukat, Nick Locarno... Mindy: I know who you are talking about, as I've seen that ep for the first time not so long ago, and yesss, he was cute! But I wanna know if you agree with me about this one: there was a young lieutenant in Drone, Mulcahy or something like that (he's even got some lines!) who was really, really cute! A very young man with a delicious face and very beautiful eyes!!! Eowyn | ||
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![[The Voyager Crew]](../images/voyager_crew.jpg)
Who wrote this low-brow burlesque?
- Final sharing scene.
. I'm totally kidding). So much for rumors of Tom and B'Elanna playing Doc. I wonder if RDM cut the scene. That wouldn't surprise me either.
You're not alone, Shadda.
No offense, but...
