The Fight

And I declare the fight ... a draw.
Terry -- 24 Mar 1999, 9:07 PM

Alpha Quad judge gave it to the Maquis Mauler, Delta Quad judge to Kid Chaos, and the Beta Quad judge called it a draw.

Hmm. Strange episode which was interesting at times but mostly uncompelling. Full of sound and fury, signifying little. Visually a treat but devoid of any real ideas.

I was about as confused about many of the events as was Chakotay. I got the impression that the first time that he woke up in sickbay after the vision quest never really happened. That he was still in the vision quest.

Much of this episode was a waste of time. Chakotay had a gene which leads to hallucinations. Aliens activate this to allow them to communicate. Chakotay fears becoming insane. Eventually he stops fighting and gets the message. All that story could have been told in twenty minutes.

Question: Chakotay knew Boothby at the Academy? While I can see that he pretended not to recognize the 8472 Boothby when they met, he didn't mention it later when talking to Janeway either.

Laughs

When Boothby was talking about heart: "Heart is what counts. Do you have it?" (roughly), I was reminded of Ray Walston's role in Damn Yankees - You Gotta Have Heart!. LOL!

Chakotay the Maquis Mauler, Disaster in the Delta.

Janeway: "I hear from Tuvok that you have a pretty good left hook."

Ginny 407 Sighting 407 on the sickbay screen.

Bottom Line

Unusual episode but ultimately devoid of any emotional payoff.

BTW, Lennox Lewis got robbed.

One...loon...circles...
D'Alaire -- 24 Mar 1999, 9:29 PM

Was it just me or did anyone else have flashbacks to Night Terrors on this ep? Very much like it, and I'm having trouble deciding which one I liked more or less. The spooked out Betazoid and watching everyone going nutty was neat, though.

Though I'm not a fan of boxing at all, it was an interesting premise that took waaaay too long to really get going--even if there wasn't much story to tell. Chaotic Space, ship's stuck and in danger, Chuck's going wacky, eventually, with Doc's help and Janeway's encouragement, figures it out.

It was not surprise at all that the aliens were trying to communicate from the start, so the rest of what was neat was watching the vision quest in itself, properly jumbled, like Chuck's mind, flipping from one character to the next. That was what made me watch with interest.

What also caught my attention in the VQ was how Tom was the untrustworthy gamester, Neelix the excited encourager, Doc the pessimist, B'Elanna the suspicious critic, Janeway the reminder of responsibility, and Harry the one who followed his example. Nothing shocking in that, but it did make me think a bit about Chakotay's perspective of them.

Of course, this was only a few minutes out the entire ep, which wasn't bad, but not nearly as intriguing. It needed more tension, more speed in the first half hour, possibly even a b-plot somehow (which I don't often suggest) to divide the time. Though, I couldn't imagine what that b-plot could have been, just something to break it up a little.

One little thing, while I'm thinking on it, though: Why are they suddenly having Tom call Kate "sir?" Who the h*ll is writing this stuff? --or have they gotten poor ol' Kate so military that she doesn't mind it anymore? I'd like to know when exactly that preference changed. Ugh. Don't like it.

Overall, a fair ep--familiar premise done well but not plotted enough to keep the pace moving.

Next week: Another Seven ep. Surprise, surprise. (smirk)

Joyce -- 24 Mar 1999, 10:11 PM

What's it going to *take*... to get a fella's shirt off? Sheesh! They don't even box with their shirts off? When did the Taliban take over Starfleet?

Sir or Ma'am as the case may be...
Carol -- 25 Mar 1999, 12:24 AM

When Paris made his "Yes Sir" comment, I literally screamed "SIR?!" I don't think TPTB are trying to make Janeway more "military," I just think they haven't been paying close enough attention during revisions. So far I'm giving Nick Sagan a C+ in his Story Editing this season -- not only has he slipped on the Ma'am thing but the crew count has been totally erratic since he took over from Lisa Klink.

As for the episode, I'm not really sure what I think. I didn't dislike it, I just found it -- eh. I'll have to watch it again before I make a clear judgement.

Chakotay vs Chakotay!
Deborah47 -- 24 Mar 1999, 11:38 PM

Let me simply say, I liked it! Give me some time to rewatch the ep and maybe I can convince Terry why he should have liked it too.

First, it really seems to be a tale of man fighting himself. In the end, "ourself" is often the most powerful enemy, and one that Janeway, B'Elanna, Harry and Seven have all had to deal with this year. Like Boothby says in the beginning, Chak's not in the ring to defeat the other guy but rather to defeat his OWN fears. Tonight we learned that Chak does indeed have his own demons to face and defeat, the fear of losing himself like his grandfather. A fear so powerful that he's ready to abandon his ship to chaotic space rather than risk himself.

But risk himself he eventually does, at the request of his captain and with the continuous berating from his "cornerman" the Doc. I agree with D'Alaire's comment that it was interesting to see Chak's subconscious use of his crewmates in his visionquest. But even more, I found it enlightening that even when he was awake and Hallucinating (when he described the Doc to Janeway as the man who called off the fight), even then he Knew who SHE was.

Secondly, D"Alaire wanted a B plot to break up this story, but I say she got one - she just didn't realize it. The B was the Janeway - Chakotay angle. And for those J/C ers among us, we got it in spades tonight. Janeway concerned, solicitous, supporting, and stepping back to let her "Number One" take the lead in the end to save the crew when Tuvok and Harry were trying to lock him out. This was a great example of Janeway doing what others frequently decry her for NOT doing, delegating responsibility for this ship and crew.

Gosh, and just when I was lamenting in an earlier post that warm and fuzzy Janeway (otherwise known as touchyfeely Janeway) was missing in action - well all I can say is WELCOME BACK! I missed ya kiddo!

Just a "quick" note from the cheap seats. D47

It was some notable J/C...but I don't think that was a b-plot.
D'Alaire -- 25 Mar 1999, 6:06 AM

But yes, I noticed when Kate actually got touchy-feely again, too. It was nice to see again, wasn't it?

And In This Corner. . .
Diane -- 25 Mar 1999, 7:41 AM

Well, first I enjoyed this strange story.

Second, Beltran can act! See what happens when TPTB write a challenging episode for an actor. I can honestly say, this is the first time since Season 1 that Beltran didn't show up for work and read his lines.

This indeed was an episode I had to rewatch before I could put some random thoughts together. It was a story of internal struggle, the recurring Voyager theme, actually this episode forced Chuck "To boldly go where no one has gone before" i.e. into his darkest fears.

My verdict is still out on the writing and Kolbe's direction. I understand that TPTB were trying to portray Chaos. Using the script and direction was an artsy notion, however, this style was a little confusing to the average viewer, hence I had to watch the episode immediately after to catch what was really going on. I guess that shows that this episode could be considered "Literary" because I remember having to read stories, like Morrison's "Beloved" two or three time until I realized what she was trying to convey in the book. I must admit, I loved the close ups and fuzzies around McNeill's face (oh, the Tomaholic in me).

Let me get back to acting. I felt the men of Voyager did an outstanding, and I mean an outstanding job. This was definitely a "Guy" show. Besides Beltran, Picardo, McNeill, and Phillips were GREAT! Because of the skew of the dream sequences, Picardo, McNeill, and Phillips got to strut their stuff, playing enhanced, deeper and darker aspects of their characters. I would love for TPTB to follow up on this characteristics. Again, I really think these guys did a GREAT job.

Ok, enough of my rambling. Terry, I didn't catch that remark about "Having Hart" Good Catch! And yes, I also thought it strange that Boothby was his trainer at the Academy when he didn't recognize him with the 8742 episode, which was rerun last week.

Well, back to work, catching spies.

Chucky!!!
Leonie -- 25 Mar 1999, 8:40 AM

Instead of Rocky,

(And if they make six more episodes with a boxing match and Chak in I'll shoot my TV and then myself.)

I liked it and then I did not. I DEFINITELY have to see it again.

Terry and I had been talking about the possible resuscitation of Chak's Character and we wondered what could have been done to put him back in the crew. TPTB had stripped his character so much and ignored him for so long that it seemed that there would be nothing interesting left to explore in him. As much as I like the Character of Chakotay I was forced to agree.

But I thought that the premise here was good. True, Chak's fear of going crazy because of his genes is about as established as Janeway fiddling with her comm badge everytime she comes up with a risky plan, but it was believable. (Speaking of that, if that was an established trait, I would think that Engineering would have to issue a new comm badge to her once every month!!)

The boxing match I found detracted from what was going on. All it seemed to do was give Chakotay a chance to be seen out of uniform, in boxing shorts and a towel around his waist.(Not that I minded seeing that but it just distracted from the main story.) I thought it would have been better if he had met the aliens in a hallucination of his home planet with his grandfather, it would have given the writers to explore the relationship a lot more and enabled the viewer to deduce that he was afraid of losing his mind like his grandfather instead of having him declare it out loud.

If it was absolutely necessary, for a towel scene to be in there, I picture a scene with him as he comes out of a stream after skinny dipping. But that's if absolutely necessary.

Speaking of scenes, I really believe that UPN have begun to leave them out. Something was missing at about mid point in the show. Somehow the transition from one scene to the next seemed disjointed. I'm going to have to look at it again before I can pin point exactly where.

That's what I thought the whole fight and the jumping to and from present and past was. It was a distraction, it made the story jerky and it took away from what I considered to be the meat and the potatoes of the story, Chakotay and his mental health (I don't want to hear the snide remarks Eric.)

Gratifying bits.

(1) B'Elanna on the Bridge and Seven off of it in Astrometrics.
(2) Chack saving the ship single handedly.
(3) The JetC moments, in sick bay (Exactly where was Kate's hands?)The way she let him guide them out against Tuvok and Harry's protests
(4) The actual communications of the aliens with Chak, using the people who he was closest too, kind of like the Prophets. (For me there are some religious parallels)

Things that made me laugh,
The doctors speech in his vision, (hysterical)

My favorite Chak moment,

(I wish I could get a clip of this, but I know that people would say it was too dark and hazy to get clearly)

When Chak (fully clothed) stood in front of the light and there was just enough light showing to see his left side for about and inch out and the rest of him, just a silhouette for the rest. YUM!!!

Next week,
Seven of Nine leaves the ship,(If only for 15 mins)
Champagne anyone!?!

btw, thanks for the welcome back TKS, it's nice to know that my friends here missed me, I certainly missed you guys.

Missed?
D'Alaire -- 25 Mar 1999, 8:54 AM

Leonie, I might now have said it before, but trust me--You've been missed!

Does this mean the Chaku-Comp is better now, or did I miss something along the way? I hope it is!

Me, too.
Ginny -- 25 Mar 1999, 10:41 AM

I missed the first twenty minutes of THE FIGHT, so I was pretty much lost for that part of the episode that I did see. That said, I must agree with you on two points, Vickie. Roberto looks better with bangs, and Voyager is a veritable smorgasbord of masculine pulchritude.

Since I also neglected to set the VCR, I'll have to wait and watch the rebroadcast on Saturday to figure this one out.

Joyce -- 25 Mar 1999, 12:39 PM

Well, I watched it from the beginning...... and I was lost too. There were multiple flashbacks, which made it hard (if not impossible) to figure out whether we were in the present or the past, but it seemed to me that there were at least three "hey, maybe the aliens are trying to communicate with us" Aha Moments.

Mrs. Mac -- 25 Mar 1999, 11:47 AM

Mac was rooting for Seven to come out and carry the sign with the round number on it. Eric really would have enjoyed that.

I certainly was a little lost in this episode. In fact, it left me a little numb. I think Terry said something about it lacking a certain emotional punch (pardon the pun).

So let me get this straight. Chakotay has a "madness" gene (that should have been in the doc's database all along) that a chaotic alien picks up on and uses it to __(fill in blank)________________ and then uses it to help Voyager leave chaotic space? Meanwhile, Chakotay has to learn to overcome his fear of going mad in order to get the instructions to get out of chaotic space. Right?

(Pulling out legal pad and pencil) So, Chakotay (assuming German accent). Tell me about your fear. It must have something to do with your mother and suppressed sexuality...

Like most of you, I really need to see this one again. On the first run thru I was lost at the beginning. The boxing scenes were fine. My husband was correct about Beltran not taking off his shirt. Beltran did the usual clenched fist to the head to show madness, but he did make an overall good effort. The scene I really loved was when the doc was in the ring in a lab coat spewing technomedicalbabble at Chakotay.

I guess this was a "guys" episode with the boxing and all. I'm sorry but I just don't find Beltran attractive at all! I thought the brushed down hair looked icky! Mrs. Mac

I'm so confused!
Karla -- 25 Mar 1999, 1:41 PM

I was looking forward to this episode. I figured if the writers could make CO and Disease work, they could make this work and it would be nice to have a Chakotay saves the ship episode rather than yearly betrayed by my alien girlfriend episode. BUT...

This episode was really confusing. I wasn't sure when we were in a flashback, or when he was hallucinating outside of the most obvious times. The episode was also repetitive. How many times did they same the aliens are trying to communicate with us, only to forget about it the next scene. I can barely handle the reset button at the end of virtually every episode. I really don't want to see multiple resets in a single episode. The writers have become to enamored of the flashback or clever framing technique (30 Days, Gravity, Latent Image, Unforgettable, The Fight) when they should be working on dialogue.

I did like the fact that they explored Chakotay's background and his relationship with his grandfather. That must have been tough growing up with a mentally ill person in the household.

This was definitely a (Voyager) guys episode. I've been feeling that way about the non-Seven parts of this season. The male characters have been given meatier roles. Tom and Harry are this season's most improved characters. Tom is everywhere, conn, sickbay and engineering. Followed by Neelix and then Chakotay. He looked captainly in Night, In the Flesh, Extreme Risk, but he's still underdeveloped.

Unfortunately, B'Elanna is the only one bearing the brunt of everyone's growth, since she's no longer allowed to be an engineer (that role goes to Seven, Captain, Harry, and Tom) unless its to play the incompetent translator (I don't understand so let's have Seven or the Captain explain a la Bride of Chaotica), have friendships with anyone (not Tom, Chakotay, Harry, Doc, anyone)or even speak more than one line in staff meetings. I hate TPTB. Yes, I'm obsessed with B'Elanna but its only because she's never on. I wasn't like this before, but my patience has worn thin. Juggernaut is coming soon, so please have patience with me.

Mike -- 25 Mar 1999, 3:54 PM

'The Fight' knocked me out cold....meaning, I passed out in the second round or second half of the episode, depending on how you look at it. Yes, folks, for the first time since I can't remember, I fell asleep on a new Trek episode! You might say I was K-O'ed by kid boredom. I started out wide awake and happy the reruns were over, but after the first thirty minutes I fell asleep, woke up once struggling to keep my lids open then didn't wake up till the fight was over.

I guess I'll try for a rematch and watch the ending tonight (from my tape ). I might also note that Mrs. Mike D. was wide awake watching this one. That doesn't mean the episode was good though, my wife would enjoy watching Beltran do a forty five minute hemorrhoid commercial.

Mr. Mac. -- 25 Mar 1999, 5:54 PM

Big Mike, I'm with ya. But unlike Mrs. MikeD, my Mrs. can do without Chuckie - with or without hemorrhoids. There were a couple of parts I thought were pretty cool - like the quick camera and audio flashes on single words near the end. Picardo did a good job. Beltran showed some good ring work - if only he could learn to cover up. He was cruisin'' for a bruisin''. I think they used a double on some fancy footwork.

I'll admit I was a little confused about the whole story but it was a better Chuckie episode than we've had in the past. At least he wasn't making out with the ring girl.

It was good to see my favorite Martian again. Overall, it wasn't an episode I'm likely to purchase from Columbia House.

Mac the Mauler.

I don't know, Mac...
Mike -- 25 Mar 1999, 6:39 PM

Mac said: "At least he wasn't making out with the ring girl."

Now THAT I would have stayed awake for. ;^)

Vickie T. -- 25 Mar 1999, 6:24 PM

Say, Mike. Elaine doesn't, by chance, have that Beltran 45 minute hemorrhoid commercial on tape does she? I'd like to see it. :-)

Mike -- 25 Mar 1999, 6:30 PM

We're ROFL, Vic, I'll ask Elaine about the tape for you......but just cause it's a hemorrhoid commercial, don't expect any bare butt shots of Chuck.

Get in the Ring...
Shawnster -- 25 Mar 1999, 6:29 PM

Ugh... not a splendid episode.

I really don't have much to say about this one. It just didn't do anything for me. TNG's "Realm of Fear" and "Night Terrors" were much better stories following this same theme.

I didn't like telling half the episode in flashback form from the opening teaser. Not a good way to build suspense in this case. Especially sense they didn't flash back to the present. We see the teaser, flash back to the beginning of the story after the credits and finally get brought back up to where we started.

This episode was just a mindless ride. We didn't really learn much about Chakotay except that he had a crazy grandfather who passed on a genetic defect which causes people to suffer delusions. Young Chakotay didn't want to be like his Grandfather and end up going crazy.

Oh, we also learn that Chakotay liked to box during his days in Starfleet Academy and Boothby, THE GARDENER, was his trainer. The Gardener.

While I liked seeing Boothby in "In the Flesh" I didn't like his character treatment in this episode. A boxing buddy of Chakotay's? This was Picard's mentor for crying out loud. Why does he have to be Chakotay's boxing partner? I guess its conceivable but still, I didn't like it.

Other than that, we learn absolutely nothing. No one does anything. We're taken for a nice little ride for an hour and wait for Chakotay to get the message from the aliens and save the ship. Big deal.

I wasn't even impressed with the special effects this week. I could hardly see the chaotic space. Looked like a hard to see cloaking shimmer. On the other hand, the image of Kid Chaos was really nice.

The only high points of the episode were the appearances of Tom and Neelix during the vision quest. Nice lines, comic relief. Only bright spots in the whole fight.

Speaking of the vision quest. It's sad that it reminded me of DS-9 and the Prophets/Wormhole Aliens. Too bad Star Trek can't do anything like that anymore without looking like DS-9. I can't see any other way to do a vision quest scene though...

A sad letdown after a two week rerun stint. I am looking forward to next week's. Ignoring the All Seven All the Time aspect of the show, it looks like we will have a decent story. Plus a great guest star...

Top Ten Other Questions Janeway Answered Incorrectly on Starfleet Academy Exams
Ruth -- 25 Mar 1999, 8:30 PM

What? Janeway missed a question on something as simple as nucleotide resonance frequency in her Exogenetics exam, and Starfleet still let her have a command?

Geez Louise! Doesn't the military have any standards left in the 24th century? And that is not the only question she got wrong at the Academy. Here then, are the Top Ten Other Questions Janeway Answered Incorrectly on Starfleet Academy Exams.

'Scuse me! Professor? Um. . .
MEG -- 25 Mar 1999, 9:17 PM

Are these exams gonna be, like, take home? And are the questions. . .um. . .you know, open book? Because, like, questions 4 and 7 would really need to be -- you know -- like, RESEARCHED. . .

LOL, Ruth. I obviously majored in the wrong things at the wrong schools!

ROTFL...
Shawnster -- 25 Mar 1999, 11:10 PM

I almost have tears streaming from my eyes and everyone left here at work is staring, wondering why I'm laughing sooooooo hard.

I agree with Meg though.... I know I'd have to take the Jim Kirk study course on a few of these...(4 and 7, as long as we substitute "him" with "her").

Great list. Fantastic...

Great list, Ruth. I'd better start revising now. (TTL response).
Jules -- 26 Mar 1999, 8:41 AM

Correct answer to number...

Is this Menosky's Trademark Show?
Jason -- 25 Mar 1999, 8:34 PM

Having to wait to see this episode for a day, it was interesting to read some of the Nebulites comments... it was most interesting because it seemed as if nothing had been given away by what you all had said.

Even based on your reactions I had no idea what to expect coming in to this episode, although I was coming to the point where I thought I was going to be in for something very much like Menosky's own second season episode "Thaw". While there are only minor similarities between the episodes, I think it's possible that "The Fight" may have been the full blown extension of what Menosky may have intended to do in "The Thaw", (maybe Berman or Piller restrained these surrealistic ideas in those episode in favor of more plot.)

So... if this is Menosky's pet project-- something he really wanted to accomplish, the question is what exactly did he accomplish? Is this a good episode or a bad one?

I'm not sure. But I will say this:

Congratulations, Joe-- if you wanted to create an episode compiled nearly completely of imagery, most of which is confusing and unfocused but all is probably connected somehow-- you succeeded.

I'm not sure how it all fits in together, although I think it's done in an interesting way. I find it hard to believe that this episode was designed to be easily digested after one viewing, but nor can I believe that TPTB would ever intend to confuse the viewers so hopelessly.

This episode had an interesting style, certainly. Based on this episode, I think I can tell which parts of "Mortal Coil" Menosky was responsible for rewriting. These vision quests and how the visions relate to real life seems to be something he is very interested in... well, now that he's done a full episode on it with the visions at their most opaque... is it all over with?

Menosky seems to be writing literary episodes, with this and "Latent Image". I like "literary" episodes, but in this case, I think that the importance of the fight should have been clearer and the story regarding the chaotic space more developed. I still have no idea what chaotic space was (and I find it a cheat that it's impossible to survive but luckily Chakotay encountered these aliens who can help, apparently.)

Another big problem with this episode was that it had no pace whatsoever... it was very dull at places, and at most other
places too explanatory... if the visions aren't instructive enough to the viewer to give them an idea what's going on, it's probably a hint that the visions don't work in the first place. If the audience doesn't get them, it's unlikely the main character will either...

Like most of the rest of you, ultimately I'm just not sure about this episode.

There were a few things I liked a lot:

Ned Romero was good as Chakotay's grandfather. (This actor was also in that TNG Native American episode.)

I liked the hallucination with all of Voyager's crew. Particularly good was Picardo.

I really, really liked the editing and structure of the scene when the aliens communicate with Chakotay... I'm not sure if all those scenes had appeared in the episode before (and if so, if it was appropriate for Chakotay to see them) but it was, unlike the rest of the episode, fast paced and took DS9's Prophets one step further.

Like the rest of this episode, the aliens were certainly bizarre.

A questions--
I don't get if Boothby was his coach in the Academy, did he write Chakotay holoprogram? Or is Boothy a holographic actor in his spare time too?

Overall, I'm sure that this episode was written, from a script point of view, in a very clever way. Unfortunately it didn't play so well on the screen. Scenes with Chakotay in sickbay where he was "insane" should have been gripping but just sat there...

There was little sense of pace or of story, this was a case where plot supplemented imagery when it should have been the other way around.

Boothby and the holodeck...
Shawnster -- 25 Mar 1999, 11:18 PM

My impression is that Chakotay wrote the holodeck episode. If Boothby's bio is on file with Starfleet and stored somewhere in Voyager's database (like all the other useless information in the database that happens to become useful suddenly), it wouldn't be too hard for Chakotay to write the program and insert his mentor in it.

My big gripes are 1: Boothby as Chakotay's mentor and friend. OK, it's possible. Still, TPTB didn't make Boothby Wesley's mentor because it would take away from Picard. Maybe now that we're so far removed from TNG, they have a different view.

and 2: Boothby is the GARDENER! I didn't like the boxing aspect at all. I can't see the Gardener liking boxing but hey, anyone can.

Boothby and his proteges.
Jules -- 27 Mar 1999, 3:42 AM

The impression I always got is that Boothby is more than a little selective in his mentoring. He's been set up as the wise man outside the Starfleet hierarchy who has great insight into its inner workings, as well as a near-prescient ability to predict which of its fledgling officer candidates both [a] have the ability to be a great asset to Starfleet in some way and [b] need a little help to reach their full potential.

He didn't pick Wesley. Maybe that's because, in some way, he saw that Wesley wasn't going to last the course? He did, after all, quit before graduating the Academy... and while he might have been a brilliant student, he was also a greatly troubled one after his second year, and therefore exactly the sort of person that you'd have otherwise thought that Boothby would have been interested in taking on. But then again, by the same token, Boothby kept all of the Nova Squadron cadets at arms length. He knew them all, by sight and reputation, but the implication in his conversations with Picard seemed to be that they were always riding for a fall, and therefore not worthy of his time or trouble. Wes is probably the closest he came to making an exception to that, and I daresay the hints he dropped in Picard's direction were more in deference to his old protege Jean-Luc than they were to extricate Cadet Crusher from his predicament.

We know that Boothby was mentor to both Picard and Janeway. It'd be interesting to know if he was mentor to anyone else amongst the Voyager regulars. Chakotay doesn't seem particularly likely... if only because, despite having been a Maquis, I don't see him as having the kind of maverick tendencies as a Starfleet officer that Boothby seems drawn to encouraging. He's so much more of a by the book Starfleet officer than Janeway is, having come back into the fold, that I can't see that he would ever have needed any guidance over anything other than his feelings towards his father and his youthful denial of his culture, and he seemed more than capable of working them through himself without outside intervention. Besides, I don't see him as a particularly high flier, and I'm pretty sure that that's part of what Boothby latches on to to draw out as well.

Others? I can see both B'Elanna Torres and Tom Paris as potential candidates for Boothby's attentions, but not as actual proteges. You'd have expected him to be a bit more successful in preventing them both from self-destructing their Starfleet careers if they had been. For instance, B'Elanna would have stayed the course and finished the Academy, and Tom would have dealt with his feelings of inadequacy in meeting his father's expectations and acquired enough self-esteem that the lies after the accident would never have happened.

Hmm. You know, I think there might be an alternate universe fanfic in there somewhere... :-)

Tuvok? No, can't see it. He's older than Boothby, if it comes to that. And Harry doesn't really seem the type to need a mentor of that type, whatever Jeri Taylor's "Pathways" might have you believe. All he ever needed was someone like Tom to show him that there is more to life than work alone, and encourage him to let his hair down...

Back to Boothby, and his image in Chakotay's fight holosimulation. Isn't the use of real (or at least living) people's images without their permission supposed to be a Bad Thing? (Of course, exactly the same comment applies to the Sandrine's simulation, but we don't actually know that anyone in it was based on a real person. Just because Tom claimed to put Ricky into every program he wrote doesn't mean that she was any more than a figment of his imagination and a kind of signature tag. And while she has the name to suggest that she owns the bar, we never did actually see Sandrine in our only "real" visit to the bar - in "Non Sequitur", did we?)

I suspect that Boothby has "future starship captain" radar.
Ginny -- 27 Mar 1999, 1:41 PM

And that's why he chose to mentor Picard and Janeway. Although I missed the first part of THE FIGHT, I'm going to rewatch it this afternoon, and I'll probably have a comment on Boothby and Chakotay at that point.

And while it certainly should be considered a breach of etiquette to use real people in a holoprogram without their knowledge or permission, have we ever been told that it's an actual breach of Starfleet regulations? I can't remember if that was mentioned in the TNG episode where Barkley had included variations of the bridge crew in his private holoprogram.

Ruth -- 27 Mar 1999, 2:38 PM

This reminds me of something else Russ said at Vulkon. I don't think this has been mentioned. Walston and Beltran were rehearsing a scene, when, instead of saying the correct line, Walston came out with a line from "Hamlet." Russ said that Beltran shot back the correct line from the play without missing a beat, and that the two actors sat there and went on for about four minutes performing Shakespeare. Russ said the cast and crew were mesmerized.

He didn't say which scene they were doing; it would be interesting to know, however. Although I'm afraid that as a child of the sitcom age, the version of Hamlet I am most familiar with is Harold Hecuba's stunning musical interpretation on Gilligan's Island. Ginger Grant was quite the Ophelia...

Ginny -- 27 Mar 1999, 2:44 PM

"I ask 'to be or not to be'...A rogue or peasant slave is what you see.
A boy who loves his mother's knee,
And so I ask to be or not to be."

Ah, the joys of a classical education. To this day, whenever I hear the opera CARMEN, I think of "Gilligan's Island".

Jules -- 27 Mar 1999, 5:25 PM

And when I think of their lesser known musical versions "From A Jack To A King" and "Return to the Forbidden Planet" (for which Mr Shakespeare was given a little help by a chap called Bob Carlton and sundry rock composers who wouldn't actually be born for another 350 years or so...)

After all, you've got to love a show with a line like "Live long and Prospero"...

Vickie T. -- 27 Mar 1999, 6:54 PM

I think Tim Russ said that...the Hamlet dialog between Ray Walston and RB happened while they were filming In The Flesh in that scene on Voyager at the conference table. IIRC, TR said that Ray Walston was having trouble getting one particular line of dialog and on one take, when he realized that he still didn't have that line down, spit out a line of Hamlet instead.

Wouldn't you love to have been there?

Jules -- 27 Mar 1999, 5:36 PM

I can't remember either, Ginny but I'd hazard a guess that it can't actually be illegal, since so many holodeck plots from TNG have required the use of real people's images. And just because they're historical figures rather than your family, friends, enemies, and old mentors doesn't necessarily make it any more or less okay to use them. Unless, like book copyrights, there's a statute of limitations which makes it okay to use someone when x years have passed since their death.

But I think it's more a breach of good manners, using people without their permission. And most specifically, if you know that there's a good chance that they would withhold that permission if they knew about it.

Which isn't necessarily the case with either Sandrine's - I can't see Sandrine denying her darling Thomas anything - or with this program of Chakotay's. Even if it is a bit odd that Boothby should feature when he seemed to know so little about him in "In The Flesh". Unless he could have written or revised this program after that, and put the character in as a result of that encounter?

And yes, I'm reasonably certain that Boothby had a pretty accurate ability to sniff out potential captains. Which is yet another reason why I can't see him mentoring anyone else on our beloved crew - since I don't see any of them with the possible exception of Harry actually making it that far up the ranks.

There's something fairly uncanny about Boothby, isn't there?
MEG -- 27 Mar 1999, 10:33 PM

When he first appeared in TNG, I half expected him to turn out to be a Q, or a Watcher, or something like that. Heck, I STILL expect to find out there's more to him than just a groundskeeper, even one with a better radar for successful cadets than the Academy faculty. After all, the 8472 made him not just the groundskeeper but the real leader in their simulation. They obviously had some idea he's more important than his position at the Academy would suggest.

I'd suggest that it's possible Boothby is picking his mentoring candidates based not so much on their potential as Starfleet captains as on a more generalized leadership ability, the ability to contribute something beyond the qualities of a good officer, and/or the ability to look and think beyond the box. After all, it's hard to imagine that he's acted as a mentor to every captain in the fleet for the last 50 years (how many of them would that be, anyway?). And it's likely that many, probably even most cadets, wouldn't notice the groundskeeping staff and wouldn't take it seriously if a groundskeeper tried to give them advice. I somehow don't see Boothby wasting his time on someone who's going to have a successful but ordinary career anyway, or who's going to go off on such a tangent that he'll have no contribution to make (like Wesley Crusher), or who for whatever reason wouldn't be receptive to being approached.

I don't remember the TNG episode well enough to comment on Boothby's mentoring of Picard, so the following comments may not hold up for Jean-Luc. But it does strike me that Boothby is extremely good at zeroing in on his protege's faults and addressing himself to them. We know, for example, that in Janeway's case he gave her roses for her dorm room -- and if ever there was someone who needed to learn to stop and smell the roses, it's Kathryn. In "Pathways", he tells Harry in effect that he's trying to be TOO perfect. (I'm not sure -- does Boothby reappear in Harry's Academy career after their initial discussion of the admission interview?) And in Chakotay's case, Boothby seems to have picked up on the fear that holds him back from a full connection with his father and his culture and makes him something of an outsider even among friends until he's thrown in with Voyager.

I see Boothby as a mythological figure, sort of a Star Trek version of Obi-wan Kenobi. He's the guide who can take the hero to the world beyond the everyday, if the hero is receptive. I think it's possible that the people Boothby mentors pick him as much as he picks them, because they're the ones who are already capable of looking at the world differently enough to see him as a source of guidance. Janeway's scientific curiosity, Picard's interest in people, and Chakotay's "contrary" instincts all make them likely candidates to fall in with the groundskeeper.

That's as much in-depth analysis as I'm capable of going into late on a Saturday night. Just in time, or maybe way past time, I'm shutting up.

Vickie T. -- 27 Mar 1999, 6:46 PM

I've watched The Fight again....and I've decided that I do like it. I also mostly understood what was going on this time. There was just one place where I didn't get it and I've decided that it was just messy editing.

Chakotay goes to his quarters to go on a vision quest. A bunch of stuff happens, including scenes with him, the Doc and the Captain in sick bay. The, we have a scene of Tom and the Doc trying to revive Chakotay from his vision quest in his quarters. So, initially, I thought, well, all that stuff that happened in between was all a part of Chakotay's vision quest. However, after watching it a second time, I decided that couldn't be correct. Several times after Chakotay has been moved from his quarters into sick bay, conversations or exchanges of information take place that suggest that the conversations we witnessed in that span of time between the start of the vision quest and the Chak/Tom/Doc scene in Chak's quarters actually took place and were not just actions that took place in the vision quest.

It makes a lot more sense if things happened in this order: Chak starts has a vision quest and comes out of it early because he fears he is going crazy. He goes back to sickbay, is encouraged by the Captain and Doc to try again, does, and it is this vision quest that Tom and Doc have to revive him from. I wonder if portions of this are what got cut in order to meet UPN's new shorter format.

Vickie T. -- 27 Mar 1999, 7:43 PM

OTOH, I'm sitting here right now....watching The Fight for the third time and I've decided I could be completely off base with my comments of 20 minutes ago. Geesh.

Sorry, Vickie, but confusion means a poor episode.
Terry -- 27 Mar 1999, 8:28 PM

Entertainment and art are about communication. If a show is a confusing mess that must be studied and re-watched, then the communication has failed.

And I would believe that TPTB would agree. Some filmmakers possess the goal of making a film that will stand the test of time. But that's not nearly true for episodic TV. After all, UPN is targeting the show for casual viewers who watch once and maybe not with their full attention.

Marie -- 27 Mar 1999, 10:01 PM

THE FIGHT amounted to a fistful of...nothing. The only thing at all interesting about that episode was the camera work. The story itself was ill-conceived and poorly executed. What I want to know is who okayed that script for production.

And no, Vickie, the editing didn't exactly illuminate the story. But I bet that's because the editor had as much of a clue about what was going on in that episode as you and I do.

Mindy -- 30 Mar 1999, 6:19 PM

Late Fight Report...gee, that sounds like an ESPN SPORTS CENTER ad, doesn't it?

Anyway, what with crazy realtor hours and my habit of falling asleep on the couch at 8:00 P.M. lately, I have been seeing VOYAGER eps on Sunday repeats...so, although I know y'all have discussed THE FIGHT to death, I still want to throw in my two cents.

My biggest reaction was HUH????

I never did get exactly who the aliens were or why Chakotay thought he was hallucinating (how come he didn't think he was hallucinating when the Borg "leftovers" got into his head?) or exactly what the heck was going on...or why only Chakotay was affected...I mean, I heard the explanations, but they just didn't stay with me...and you know why?

HOW IN THE WORLD COULD BRAGA AND MENOSKY SUDDENLY OKAY CHAKOTAY NOT ONLY KNOWING BOOTHBY, BUT SAYING THAT BOOTHBY WAS HIS BOXING COACH????

Okay, Okay, I know I'm yelling, but please!!!!, weren't you all angry and pissed off at this flagrant dissing of any continuity whatsoever?

Plus, the character of Boothby himself...he is NOT Burgess Meredith in the ROCKY pictures...he is a GARDENER...that's all he (presumably) cares about...and taking him out of the garden waters down and weakens the character....

And what is this, now? Every character in ST who has more than a walk-on part is going to have had a relationship with Boothby? I don't like that. Boothby is an interesting individual...but expose him to everybody, and he becomes "watered" down...the guy is special because he has an eye for the special ones, and "cultivates" friendships with them...he sees himself as the Gardener of the Fleet, pulling out weeds, nourishing the ones that need it, leaving the ones who don't take to constant attention alone... know what I mean? If he had known Chakotay, he would have eyed him immediately as someone who would NOT be able to stay true to Starfleet ideals, but who would instead resign his commission in a time of crisis...and despite his crusty exterior and cynicism, I believe Boothby is about as "Starfleet" as they come. My point is that Boothby would not have wasted his time infusing Chakotay (or anyone) with any kind of knowledge or psychobabble or whatever you want to call it if he didn't feel that the person would be a credit Starfleet...because he would have seen Chakotay as a weed. (Hope I'm clear on that...sentence feels unwieldy.)

This is what bothers me the most...using Boothby is indicative of a special VOYAGER problem...instead of developing their own special characters and world, they really piggyback onto previous incarnations...and TOTALLY IGNORE WHAT HAS GONE BEFORE!!!!

On the positive side, I felt for the first time that Beltran really acted...I suddenly saw emotions in Chakotay in a man that has the flattest affect on the ship. Good job, Beltran. Keep it up. (You might get it right by the end of the seventh season ...oooh, isn't that a bit nasty, Mindy. Yep.)

The rest of the crew was fine. Picardo did his usually great job, and Katie continues to grow on me...this is her finest season so far, IMO.

Tomorrow night...Jason Alexander.

I hope it's not stupid.

Sue_B -- 1 Apr 1999, 5:56 PM

The Duo of Dull
The Fight....Bleech
Think Tank.....Yawn

I'm a die-hard Voyager fan and fell asleep 40 mins into each episode.

I look forward to reading other reviews for things that would make me give the episodes a second chance.

In sum,
the plots were trite,
there was no real compelling issue (Chakotay was not going to go insane, Seven was not going to leave the ship),
there were no lasting effects,

Bring back some angst or adventure please.

Small (very) but good TT moments:
- Alexander's character was flat to me but some of the repartee was witty
- The rubics cube

The Fight - some late comments.
Jules -- 11 Apr 1999, 12:29 PM

I finally got to see this one last night, quite late after a long day at work. And in a strange way, I think that helped it. I was pretty tired, and I knew from other people's comments that its timeframe was supposed to be pretty jumbled, so I just sat back and went with the flow, not worrying about which scene fitted where or what connected to that. Viewed like that, without looking too closely at the sequence of events, it seemed to hang together okay and tell the story, but I suspect that when I eventually sit down and start picking it to death and trying to connect the dots, it's going to be a very slippery customer indeed!

I do like the impact of jumping straight in in the middle of the episode. It's something we've seen a lot more of this year, and that working backwards and forwards in time simultaneously seems a fairly valid dramatic technique for an episode that is supposed to portray an examination of chaos. However... I'm no bigger a fan of boxing than the Doctor is, and I'd much rather have seen just about anything used as an extended metaphor throughout this episode than that. It also struck me as being particularly bizarre as a thing that Chakotay would choose to do. Where's either the man of peace or the angry Maquis? I see him as having a temper that flares hot and bright but burns out quickly, and I could easily see him partaking of the sort of "beat up the Cardassians" program that B'Elanna was running in "Extreme Risk". Street fighting, no rules, tricky and dirty. Improvised stuff as survival skills. But I don't see the lure of the ritualised form of beating each other senseless with no greater end than that.

And, and I know it's the year of the t-shirt and tank top, but what on earth possessed Chuckles to wear both of them simultaneously? :-)

One final thought. This is something which has bugged me since the introduction of the Astrometrics Lab, but watching this episode, and the specific circumstances under which Seven summoned the usual little group to Astrometrics triggered it afresh. Voyager encountered a navigational hazard, the chaotic space. Seven was examining it on the sensors in Astrometrics, and she called Janeway to come and inspect her findings. Janeway, not unnaturally, brought a few other folks along for a second opinion. Fair enough, Chakotay's the first officer and Tuvok's there to review any tactical implications but... excuse me? Isn't there someone missing here?

It's a navigational hazard. Someone's going to have to fly the ship out of it somehow. Under those circumstances, wouldn't you want the man who sits in the seat at the front - fulfilling the dual functions of pilot and navigator - to be part of the group being briefed on it? So, where's Tom?