The Coffee Nebula Board is for the discussion of Star Trek: Voyager and other sci-fi/cult shows. This is its Archive of episode discussions, top ten lists, fan fiction, and other miscellaneous musings.
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"Who would have thought that this eclectic group of voyagers could actually become a family. Starfleet, Maquis, Klingon, Talaxian, hologram, Borg... even Mr Paris." |
Course: Oblivion"Oblivion" sets a strong course. Damn! Just when I went to press SUBMIT I accidentally got CLEAR! Okay... here's a brief review: I thought that this was a very good episode. It's not a complete winner, which is unfortunate because it had the potential to be truly excellent. Terry asked at mid-season what we wanted to see from Voyager in the second half of the season. I said I wanted to see a sci-fi adventure, that this season has been too top heavy with character or heavy stories. This is exactly what I wanted-- it's an episode that puts the crew in an actual mission (! -- There's something about an actual mission which adds a level of excitement to an episode.) and also deals with character elements while working in humor. The writers this season seem to have realized that what always works, no matter how crazy the concept is turning the episode in to an ethical debate or adding a conflict between Janeway and another crewmember. The scenes with Janeway and Chakotay were reminiscent of "Scorpion", and again, like that episode, they came up with gold here. Those scenes, and Chakotay's ensuing death were the beginning of the tragic story. This episode achieved establishing an atmosphere that was sometimes eerie, sometimes spooky. This is subjective, but to me this was reminiscent of 50's sci-fi. There is something eerie and disconcerting about a melting ship and a "ghost crew" who are living the lives of living people with different results, and are ultimately melting away, doomed to be tragic beings. Or perhaps they are merely reminiscent of the doomed snowmen and women from Calvin and Hobbes who are similarly eerie, tragic and disconcerting beings. (A side note, did the melting Janeway remind anyone of Vina from "The Cage"?!) Last year, the show was referred to as "The Seven and Kate Show", this year it's "The Tom and Kate Show"! Thought much to my surprise, I'm not really objecting too much. This has certainly been Paris' renaissance. And it was nice to have an ensemble show, especially in that characters who haven't gotten screentime lately, (Torres, Neelix Chakotay) all had significant scenes. Ultimately, the episode gets better as the tragic plight and urgency of the mission increases. I was genuinely on the edge of my seat hoping that some indication of their existence would survive. That it didn't was bittersweet. And I'm of mixed feelings about it-- but that was exactly the point. There is something eerie and strange about the galactic odds of Voyager coming so close to it's duplicates without ever realizing they were there-- their accomplishments or ultimate demise. This episode had a distinctive mood, and as a sequel, really works. It's intriguing, interesting and had a very effective atmosphere. With just a bit more, it could have been among the very best episodes of the series, as it was, the hour was very packed. Continuity alert: Tom has the lieutenant's pips! How impressive! Ultimately: a darkly strange and magical show, another notch in the belt for Voyager as far as accomplishments this season goes. Terry -- 3 Mar 1999, 9:17 PM Coarse: Oblivion was very fine. Once again, an episode which sounded like a piece of garbage turned out to be a well-written and acted story. If I could have avoided spoilers, this would have very surprising. BTW, did I miss something? Did they ever explain how they got a biometric (or would that be mechometric) copy of Voyager? One joke I liked: Positives: Despite what I KNOW Ginny will say, I liked the scenes between these two characters. They struck a nice note of affection and trust. Still, I could have done without the "Noo!!" scene after her death -- I expected something trite like that. I would have preferred a simpler expression of grief and anguish. I liked the idea that the crew would have problems accepting that they are duplicates. Some ignored it; others accepted it; still others were just angry and rather irrational. I'm not sure if Paris' rebellious attitude made sense but it was enjoyable to watch. As was Janeway's final acceptance of the futility of pressing on toward the Delta Quadrant. Likewise, I enjoyed hearing brief descriptions of some outlandish adventures that the Demon crew had. Ironic that the Voyager that couldn't use the enhanced warp drive without harm was the one who found it. The Demon planet was in the Vaskan sector. The Vaskans were one of the races encountered by Voyager in Living Witness. Nice bit of continuity there. Nice story of the crew struggling despite death and the hopelessness of the situation. Janeway, Neelix, Harry and Chakotay were excellent in that. Another thing I liked was just that the dialogue and acting seemed somehow natural and unforced. I can't really point to any one thing but the characters seemed very true to themselves this week. No phony tag lines, big guns, or corny jokes. It seemed funny to see bride and groom in uniform but I liked seeing everyone in formal unis for the first time. Negatives: What the heck is with TPTB this season?!? Another show with a real downer ending. The Demon crew isn't going to survive. They aren't going to make it to Earth. They aren't even maintain their sentience. They aren't even going to make it back to the Demon planet to revert to pools of goo. Okay, tragic but I'll buy that. But then TPTB went too far. Their personal logs were destroyed. No record of their existence will survive. The Demon Harry never even got the chance to give them a clue of their existence. That's too depressing in my mind. They failed and no one will ever know they lived. Why can't they just release that probe with the logs? Perhaps they will be found centuries from then, perhaps not. (Nit-pick: Why wouldn't the probe also disintegrate? They didn't mention it being composed of non-replicated materials.) I was really rooting for Harry to preserve the knowledge of their existence. Okay, maybe I'll get over the disappointment. I got over the disappointment of Tom failing to help the Moneans. (Well, I'm almost over that one.) Questions: Hmm, why are the Demon Paris and Torres more serious than ours? Bottom Line: Another good episode. Like the others this season, it was the character elements that made the story good rather than the sci-fi plot. On the subject of the duplicate Voyager... Wasn't the ship more than half submerged in a pool of silver goo by the time that Janeway managed to negotiate its release by offering to let the goo imprint her crew? Now, the goo may have the potential for sentience, but in its native state it seems to have borne as much resemblance to deuterium as anything else. We don't know the exact range and scope of its imprinting capabilities; only that "Demon" established that it could successfully copy the crew. So there's absolutely nothing to say that it couldn't equally well copy the ship itself, and all its component parts, but without asking permission this time. It would presumably be equally possible to duplicate the computer's memory core - and the Doctor's program - as it would any of the crew's memories. And - remembering that Jim pointed out in his review that they seemed to have gained the ability to breath oxygen rather than the Demon planet's atmosphere - who's to say that they actually did? Maybe the Demon version of Voyager had an atmosphere that they thought of as normal, but which was actually closer to the environmental norm of their real home planet? And maybe all of those planets that they visited and had adventures on along the way were places that the real Voyager wouldn't have been able to explore without breaking out the environmental suits? How shall I phrase this? I enjoyed watching the duplicate Voyager and its crew self-destruct. It was so refreshing to watch the crew be in a situation where they couldn't' pull off the last-minute miracle, where neither Phaser-Rifle Kate nor The Borg, Babe could kick physical/mental butt and rescue everyone. I found the crew as a whole emotionally affecting in a way that I rarely do. I can't remember the last time I saw every cast member rise to the occasion the way they did in this ep (unless I go back to CARETAKER). Harry, like Tom, is really beginning to grow on me. I can't help but wonder why TPTB didn't make better use of Garrett Wang before this season. "I'm not really an idiot, I was just forced to act like one on Voyager." I can understand why the duplicate Voyager's complete destruction, logs and all, would strike you as too much, Terry, but I really liked that bit. I kept expecting, as I watched C:O, that this would turn into something like that TNG ep, where Picard ran across the probe that contained an entire civilization's memories and history. The actual ending turned out to be a genuine surprise. I didn't think TPTB would have the guts to do that. That was a nice bit of realism, and a reminder that in space, as in life, some things are not only futile, but senselessly tragic. We've seen so many Voyager eps where insurmountable odds are beaten, that it's hard to take them seriously. This one left me with food for thought. I disagree. Wang really was awful before this season. In general, I think the staff is doing much better with *all* of the characters, but based on Garrett Wang's performances in previous seasons I can understand why the staff would be reluctant to touch his character. In shows such as "One", which were well written he gave terrible performances. I will never forget the line "You can try to ignore me, but IT WON'T WORK!" thanks to Wang's line delivery. I think the change in Harry Kim this year is more attributable to Wang getting his act in gear rather than TPTB realizing how talented he actually can be. Even up until this year I still thought TPTB should write him out of the show. Marie -- 5 Mar 1999, 11:48 AM Hi Jason! Yes, Wang *was* awful before this season, and I don't think he's the brightest acting light that shines in Hollywood. However, when you look at a lot of what he's had to work with over the previous season--FAVORITE SON, the ridiculous Kim-Seven interchanges, to mention just a few--well there isn't much you can do with those. There have been previous occasions, though few and far between, where Wang was given a good script and rose to the occasion. CHUTE in particular comes to mind. Now that Harry is being written as someone who isn't a complete idiot, should we be surprised that Wang's acting is suddenly improving? Of course, it could be that Wang was such a jerk before that the writers purposely gave him silly scripts, and now he's gotten his act together. I really don't know, but I do know that I like this season's Harry Kim. Shawnster -- 4 Mar 1999, 6:04 PM Crew's death poignant, wrenching... Like you Terry I was hoping the logs would survive. The Real Voyager would arrive at the scene, find the remains of the biometric ship and detect the log buoy. However, I don't think that's what the writers wanted (well duh, the writers wanted what they wrote...) I think the goal was to give us a real sense of loss. Your points are on the money. This crew wouldn't make it to Earth, they wouldn't make it home and no one knows they existed. It is very moving and wrenching. Since we know we'll never see the real Voyager destroyed or the real crew all die (well, the main cast...) this is as close as the writers will take us and, for a moment, for one episode, we lost the entire crew. Tragic. And no, you didn't miss anything. I didn't hear any explanation on how they made an entire ship, got of the planet, etc... Didn't Voyager sink into the Goo in Demon? We know the Demons can mimic everything now, and somebody said the whole ship was made of Goo, so I just figured the Goo made Voyager. Yeah, it's far fetched, but the whole episode was and it worked for me. It's not that far-fetched, Eric. When the silver blood duplicated Harry and Tom, it did so complete with clothes and com badges, which are just an inanimate as the ship. It's logical to assume it could also duplicate the ship, since it had an opportunity to read Voyager's genetic structure when it sank into the "goo', as you so artfully put it. Course: Oblivion was AWFUL!!! I agree with your entire analysis, but not your conclusion that the episode was well-written! IMHO, what on earth were TPTB thinking of, giving us such a dark and morose tale about the futility of sentience, of existence? The beacon of personal logs and records should not have been destroyed! Or if TPTB were bound and determined to leave no detailed record of the alternate Voyager, the real Voyager should have at least figured out they were looking at the Demon class Voyager's remains, even if they never knew how they got there or what happened. But for TPTB to just sit there and weave a story about the complete and utter demise of a crew that is close enough to the real Voyager to make me care about what happens to them is just not to be endured! I did think it interesting that the alternate Janeway retained her alter-ego's formidable stubbornness - talk about a fatal flaw - what on earth was she thinking to not turn the ship around immediately after she knew she - and everyone else - was a clone. I also liked seeing Chakotay with a spine. I never saw the episode Demon, did the ship get cloned as well? And I loved the sweet Paris-Torres wedding scene in the beginning. BUT OTHERWISE I HATED IT!!! So much for "We'll Always Have Paris." Again, we agree about this episode for the most part. It's getting scary. I think we always used to count on the fact that we would always have differing opinions on Paris. You would like him, but he's never been amongst my favorites. But now I'm starting to appreciate him more. At least we seem to be on opposite sides on many DS9 episodes this season, judging from our ratings at the SOS. I think this has been a very bad year at DS9 with only a few exceptions. I know that you don't seem to be enamored with the show either, but we seem to be at odds about which are the actual episodes which are weak. In the event that we become completely bio-mimetic duplicates I suppose that we can always hold on to that. The eerie, the strange, and the tragically ironic... The ending of this one, so far as I understand it from the comments I've read, sounds to be very much the sort of thing that you got in an episode of "The Outer Limits". There's a whole genre devoted to the last nasty little twist in the tale, and it seems to be something that Braga and his team actively feed off. A couple of things I didn't quite understand.... For the most part, this episode seems either we really loved it or really hated it! For me, it was just so-so. The storyline didn't excite me a whole lot but I did enjoy the acting. I loved the wedding scene but thought it was bit corny with Harry playing the wedding march on his clarinet.(not my instrument of choice, I guess) Otherwise, it fulfilled a recurring fantasy for me. I was a little disappointed that B'Elanna didn't wear a traditional gown but what the heck. Even if we didn't already know this was a demon crew, there was one thing that was said during the wedding vows that would have made me suspicious. Janeway called Paris "Lt. Paris" instead of Ensign. Of course, on the demon ship Paris would still be a lieutenant. I also noticed how well the demon B'Elanna and 7 of 9 seem to get along. That was kind of nice seeing them co-operate with each other for a change. What I didn't quite understand and they didn't really go into any detail about, was why in the world would they forget they were duplicates? Just because they left the planet and got away from it? Why would the planet "let" them get away? I guess TPTB had to explain it somehow but I thought that was lame. The thing that frustrated me was that poor B'Elanna disintegrated before she got a chance to go on her honeymoon with Old Blue Eyes. Bummer!! Shawnster -- 4 Mar 1999, 5:53 PM One of my secret fears.... I read a story that moved on the AP wire a couple of years ago about a young woman (somewhere from mid 20s to early 30s, can't remember) who died in her husbands arms during their wedding reception. Her death was ruled due natural causes. Ever since then I've had a secret fear that I will marry and be a widower in a short span of time... It would be ironic justice. I had the same exact thought Ohio Babe. Shawnster (shuddering at the thought) Subconsciously I knew Janeway reminded me of somebody. Her hair and the way she held her head there at the end, very similar to Vina in her true form from TOS's "The Cage" and "The Menagerie." Ginny -- 4 Mar 1999, 6:00 PM What Shawnster said! As soon as you mentioned Vina, I thought, "That's it!" Kathryn even hunched a little and moved clumsily like the "real" Vina there toward the end of C:O. Shawnster -- 4 Mar 1999, 6:07 PM Ya know, its kinda cool... To post here, refresh and see someone else is here at the same time, reading the threads...
MEG -- 3 Mar 1999, 9:49 PM The destruction of the replicant Voyager's logs. . .struck me as being the heart of the tragedy, Terry. (I'm not sure if that's exactly the phrase I'm looking for, but I can't come up with a better one at the moment.) After all, the duplicate crew had developed an enhancement to the warp drive that was going to allow them to reach Earth in -- what? -- a year or so? Had the records survived for the original Voyager to find, presumably they could have made use of that design achievement to shorten their own journey. The duplicate crew not only would have been remembered but would have contributed to the successful completion of "the mission." Somehow that seemed to me the saddest thing about the destruction of the duplicate. Mike -- 4 Mar 1999, 7:39 PM About your point, MEG ... For me it would have been a much better ending as you described it. In a way they would have completed their mission by helping the other Voyager crew accomplish theirs. At least then there would have been some Terry -- 3 Mar 1999, 9:57 PM True, MEG, but those logs didn't have to be recovered by Voyager. It would have been some comfort to know that someone, somewhere would learn of their lives. Even if it was like the aliens in TNG's Inner Light. That's the one where the dying aliens sent a probe that forced Picard to relive the life of one of their race. So, their memory was preserved and their passing mourned. Even if by a stranger. Excellent point about the enhanced warp drive. But I can think of ways around that sticky point. For instance, Demon Janeway deleted any technical information in accordance with the technology restrictions of the Prime Directive. Or the hokey solution of damaged data records. Or forget the logs. If Demon Harry just manages to make brief contact and let Voyager know that the Demon Voyager crew existed and died. No details but the real crew is left wondering and perhaps mourning. MEG -- 3 Mar 1999, 10:31 PM I know what you mean, Terry. I wanted something of them to be preserved too. The precedent I thought of was "That Which Survives", from TOS. And as long as we're wishing here, I think it would have been interesting to have Voyager find and play the duplicate Janeway's final log entries, in which she first tries to keep going, then loses Chakotay, and finally is forced to turn around. It would have been a way of confronting "our" Janeway with the possible consequences of her obsessive streak and giving her some things to reflect on. Identity and immortality... Excellent points, MEG. First about the deleted logs being at the heart of the tragedy--I think this episode wouldn't have been nearly as effective if the logs were found. Immortality is a desire just about every person has. We know we're all going to die sooner or later, but we want to make our imprint on the universe; we want to be remembered, just like the duplicate Voyager crew. And we all struggle to one degree or another with issues of identity, who we are, and what makes us, well, *us.* The issues were all dealt with in a touching, but ultimately unsentimental manner. On the other hand, it certainly would have been interesting to see the real Janeway's reaction to the realizations of her counterpart. It was very satisfying to have Janeway acknowledge that she was wrong. MEG -- 4 Mar 1999, 1:47 PM Despite my variation on the theme, Marie. . ..I don't think the episode would have been as strong if it had ended with Voyager finding the duplicate's logs. I remember, from years and years and years ago in a basic Lit course, the definition of tragedy being given as "that which evokes pity and terror." This episode may not quite rise to tragedy in that classical sense; but if we didn't pity the duplicate crew for their inability to leave anything of themselves behind, and share the terror of a meaningless death, the story would lose a lot. I think that's what I was getting at last night when I said that the destruction of the duplicate's logs is at the heart of the tragedy. BTW, I'm glad to see you here again! A View from OBLIVION. Now THAT's more like it! If your going to go to repeats do it on a strong episode like this one. So come on? Did you shed a tear for the Goo Crew? I almost did, but I was a man and choked it back :-) I really liked the teaser for this one, the rice falling down while the corridor destabilized : VERY nicely done. And now a little note : This is the 2nd time in only a week I saw slo-mo used in Star Trek and I say : DO IT MORE OFTEN! I love it! It belongs in Trek! DS9 used it for fun, Voyager used it for creepiness, loved them both. Lastly, before my love/gripe list, PTB, NEVER, NEVER make Seven ugly again. It worked THIS time, but if you do it again, I'll have Tanya Harding break your legs. :-D The Good : The teaser! Best one in awhile, nicely creepy! B'Elanna : I'm going to put this in a separate thread, but for now all I will say is : D'Alaire, I blame you. RDM : Again, a strong performance from Tom! This guy is really growing on me this season. I liked him before, but he is pushing the envelope this year. Foundation Imaging : Yada,yada,yada, another great episode for'em. They are really kicking but this year, so let's just say I EXPECT it from them now. :-) Janeway : She did a great job didn't she! I liked how she dealt with her own Kobyashi Maru. Oh CRAP! I better delete this before Terry sees it! Computer strike this line! Gripes : Ok, Goo Voyager was more then halfway back to the Demon planet from last year before blowing up. We have had the jump in Hope and Fear, Night, Timeless and Dark Frontier since then so how did the real Voyager meet them? Was this episode shown out of order? Maybe it was done before DF? Ugly Seven! BBBBBrrrrrrrrrrrr!!! NEVER do that again to me PTB! Still, I guess it shows how good Voyager make-up folks are! Overall, a good episode, and one that puts us back on track after Disease! B'Elanna : Or Why I blame D'Alaire... I have never been a big fan of B'Elanna. When the show started and for it's first three years she was always blown away by Kes. Sure she wasn't on the bottom with Kim and Neelix but she was never near the top of the ladder either. And then in season 4 she was the amazing disappearing crabhead. She was always peaking up from behind consoles and underneath the Biobed. And then we had the Crabhead debate here. Aaaahhhh those were the days. But then this season started. I had already met Roxanne in person over the summer, and THEN B'Elanna starts getting good stories! And now she is showing a little skin and having a good hair season. But I could have resisted that! She would still be the crabhead for me! But NOOOOOOOO! I may be a vicious defender of Kes and Seven, but I'm small fry when it comes to D'Alaire (and her puppet Terry!) defending and promoting B'Elanna! Reading her posts was like a slow poison working it's way through your body until watching Course : Oblivion today I suddenly realized that I was caring what was happening to B'Elanna!! Aaaaaak!!! How could you D'Alaire??? Take it back! I don't want this!! Let me go back to Seven and Kes in peace!!! Nooooooooooooooo!! D'Alaire -- 3 Mar 1999, 10:09 PM Oh, Eric!..my heart flutters, my smile grows, a warm, happy feeling fills and consumes me. Of course, I've loved B'Elanna since even before the show aired (I just KNEW I'd love B'Elanna, reading about her), and have worshipped RD's talent and incredible ability to portray her character, yet to see you caring about what happens to her is so precious to me! I'm thrilled to hear you've come to like her, Eric. Really, I mean that. But if you keep charming me like you have, my dear friend Tim's going to have to start butting chests soon. Snort! I'll make the popcorn! ; ) Deborah47 -- 4 Mar 1999, 4:49 AM I take Eric's statement of conversion to the B'Elanna camp and further evidence that the Birthday boy (still, till he says otherwise) is Growing up? Who was it that posted the Photo of Janeway for him last week? Tim? Terry? Whomever, we now see you've hit Eric on the mark! I now see that his vigorous denial and protestation of love for Seven & Kes were simply a case of "me thinks the lad Protests TOO much" Welcome to our world, Eric. D47 (Don't worry, we like Seven and Kes in this world too) Tim and Eric, now I am having a vision. Can't you just see both Tim and Eric with Batleth in hand, fighting in a Klingon like frenzy. I wouldn't mind watching, in fact I think they would be evenly matched. You know this could be quite entertaining. Resistance was feudal. (NIM) Bwaahahahhahaha! Snort! They'd likely argue more over... ...which got to wield the red or blue lightsabers! (snicker) D'Alaire -- 3 Mar 1999, 9:29 PM Let's start off simply: I liked this ep, for much the same reasons Jason did. With an antenna barely working in this idiotic place, I yet was able to enjoy the ep. (Please see begging section below) I loved the setup--how they just didn't realize they were copies. That was great, and beyond what I'd expected from what the spoilers had spoken on. I thought that worked wonderfully--and I can say I liked it more than the original Demon, though I admit I loved that ep mainly for B'Elanna's return in S4. ; ) Of course, I loved Tom and B'Elanna's wedding--seeing them together is enough of a thrill, a tasteful, well-written wedding was a kicker for me. B'Elanna in Engineering was utterly classic B'Elanna--loved it; T&B in sickbay almost made me cry (and it's hard to do that to me). "How's my old lady?"--"Fine, enough that I can break your nose if you call me that again." Love it. All of it was exceptionally acted, so sincere and real to character. Just what I'd expect. : ) Janeway was fantastic, and with Chakotay just the way I like them, gristle and a stone. Jason had it dead-on: Scorpion shades that works so well for them. Harry holding up the fort until the last second too late (grr, see rant) was wonderful. H*ll, I loved everyone in this ep. Great to see everyone working together again, a good ensemble piece. But no, it wasn't perfect--and my huge gripe...RANT TIME What the F**k were they thinking in doing the total reset button with that?! I was livid at the end. What was the use of the ep if nobody ends up getting anything out of it? I loved YOH but went bananas for the same reason. They could have those logs survive, Mister Brannon-I-hate-arcs Braga--have something about them survive. Not the real Voyager going la-di-da log entry along their way. Arrrrugh! D@mnit, I liked that crew! They did deserve to be remembered! Gritty is one thing, reset buttons like these are useless. Ahhhhh...okay. I feel better. But I did like the ep, even with the rotten reception--which brings me to ask--Could someone, anyone, send me a tape of Course Oblivion and Disease? Because of the T1 satellite going out, I missed the latter and couldn't tape this one. I'll pay any tape/time/postage for it, of course. If someone might e-mail me on that, I'd be eternally grateful. : ) Ted Mullaney -- 4 Mar 1999, 12:19 AM I am posting MY response to "Course: Oblivion" before I see any one else's reaction to the episode and this is why: I feel that although this particular episode made for a good hour of TV (or Telly for our English readers) WHAT POINT DID IT MAKE????? Damnit, nothing at all in the episode had any relevance to what REALLY happened to Voyager,none of it (except for the last scene) took place on board Voyager!!!! So, excepting for a bit of insight into the basic personalities of the cast as perceived by the Goo people,(In the words of Goddess Seven) It was completely....... IRRELEVANT, IRRELEVANT, IRRELEVANT!!!!!! And next week we get a damned rerun! Where IS Voyager????????? ???????????????????????????? (Its position as relates to Earth). Carol -- 4 Mar 1999, 12:52 AM Well, if anything, Course: Oblivion was a apt title considering what happened at the end. This episode was more than a little ridiculous in a lot of places, but I found myself enjoying it up until that ending. Cheers Ohmygosh, P/T that works! I really liked Tom and B'Elanna's wedding. It was sweet and not at all corny like I was afraid it would be. I feel real love and affection coming from them and really felt for Tom when B'Elanna "died." Nick Sagan really has a knack for writing personal relationships. All the P/T scenes, as well as the J/C ones, were all well done. And speaking of J/C, I too disagreed with the duplicate-Janeway's decision and was glad the duplicate-Chakotay was able to talk some sense into her. She couldn't see beyond the obsessive desire given to her by the real Janeway about getting the ship home but couldn't see that "home" for them wasn't Earth as Tom pointed out to Harry earlier. And she looked heartbroken when he died. I really, almost expected her to say that she loved him very much, not that he was just a valued friend (though that was nice too). I must say, during most of this episode, this crew acted closer and more like a "family" than I've seen the "real" crew act a lot this year. Now if the writers can do this with a duplicate crew. . . If anything, this episode had a nice ensemble feel too it. I always like Voyager most when it give a chance to let the whole crew have moments to shine (Worst Case Scenario, Bride Of Chaotica!). The B'Elanna that's been MIA most of the season was back acting like a Chief Engineer and not letting Seven take over her job. Chakotay and Tuvok working together in astrometrics to solve the problem at hand. Fine work from everyone in the cast. And I was surprised that Tuvok and Chakotay figured out the plot twist that they were duplicates. I didn't think anyone would figure it out until the end of the show. Jeers Am I the only one who thought that ending was completely lame? After all of that, I was hoping the Demon crew would leave something of there existence behind. Maybe Nick Sagan and Byron Fuller meant the ending to be poignant and dark, but I just found it pointless and stupid. And I'm not going into the distance traveled by both ships in the time given. I could be plausibly argued that some events over the past months since Demon might not have happened. And did anyone catch Tom's "Yes sir" at the end of the episode? Not really a jeer, but Chakotay's face having the fluid swimming under the skin was -- ew. In fact, I found everyone's latter latex-covered appearance rather disgusting. Anyway I know this is mostly going to be a guilty pleasure episode for me and maybe for a lot of people, like season three's Macrocosm. There were lots of moments a like (especially at the beginning), but a lot I detested (mostly towards the end). Did anyone notice what was on top of the wedding cake? (GI)
Tom and B'Elanna 5" action figures! LOL! Deborah47 -- 4 Mar 1999, 4:35 AM Thanks Terry, those of us listening to Star Trek last night missed all the cute & gruesome visual details. I agree with many thoughts expressed on this subject, but I disagree about the "horrible" ending. To me it was just right. The duplicate Voy has NOT been forgotten by all those species it interacted with over the last 10 months (and it certainly won't be forgotten by the fans). It will be interesting to see if our VOY starts running into evidence of the Duplicate VOY as they go along their way. This was kind of like looking at an A/U of Voy (without the leather that Eric likes so much) We got to see our people and those quirks we like but with a difference. A Tom that can commit, and a B'Elanna that can run an engineering room. A Chak that can command and a Tuvok that can work to solve a mystery. A Seven ready to explore new aspects of her individuality (be still your hearts Eric & Ted et.al.) And a Janeway that, in the end, realizes that she must be true to HER crew. Not to the human crew she thought she commanded. But unfortunately, they HAD to die. They had to leave no record for the REAL Voyager. Just think how you would of felt, knowing you were the cause of their 10 month flight & plight & eventual death? How much angst can one crew endure? Oblivion definitely had me on my seat several times,for the hanging comment re Chak , "He was a fine officer and .............. a Friend! (ARG PTB You do that on PURPOSE!) for the QUESTION of whether they'd figure out the Nature of their existence, and how that knowledge would affect them, And for the ENDING. ("Well you know, of COURSE they'll leave a message, it's Star Trek for gosh sakes, Eventually everything will turn out and we'll have an "acceptable ending.") I don't want this ending every week, but like with LAW & ORDER in the 90's and CAGNEY & LACEY in the 80's it can be a refreshing change of pace. (Can't live on treacle alone guys) Man, I LIKE this season so far. AnnM. -- 4 Mar 1999, 6:06 AM Call me slow it dawns on my why "Oblivion". I was upset about their existence being lost when they couldn't release the capsule. But... as I said I'm in the slow group today. Maybe due to watching it late last night and not getting a lot of sleep. The question of how they would get a Voyager seemed a little sketchy and as I told my husband I guess it's time to look at "Demon" again to follow some sort of continuity of the alternate crew. The romantic in me loved the wedding scene and found Tom talking to B'Elanna about their pending honeymoon touching. The temperature quip rang true in our household. I'm constantly trying to get my husband to turn up the heat in the house and he's always warm. :) It was nice to see the more of everyone in this episode. Although since it was just "goo" people, what difference does it make. I'm not sure if someone already mentioned it but I guess you could counter that if the "Demon" people feel this way then deep down the "Voyager" crew really could follow some of the same paths in their relationships and interactions. Bellona -- 4 Mar 1999, 12:51 AM Irrelevant? I don't think Course Oblivion was irrelevant, actually I'd describe it as philosophical. It reminded me of the age old question --If a tree falls in the forest does it make a sound? One possible answer--- It does not make a sound but yet the tree falls. Even though know one in the star trek universe will ever know about their existence there are still two very important things that make this episode especially relevant: 1. during the time the duplicates lived they really lived--- they worked loved , had children, adventures etc. As both Harry and Janeway mentioned it did matter if they were real, duplicate or other what other people thought, or even if anyone ever know of their existence what mattered was they believed in themselves and each other. 2. we know about their existence and can learn that lesson from them. SORRY TO BE SO PHILOSOPHICAL BUT IT'S 1:30 AM HERE AND WE ARE IN THE MIDDLE OF A BLIZZARD. Mrs. Mac -- 4 Mar 1999, 7:13 AM Let me jot off a quick bunch of comments about Course: Oblivion before I mire myself in today's goo. Overall it was a good episode - that which I saw between the lights going off and the cable going off and the sensor lights going on and off . . . we had a rather nasty storm blow through last evening. Ah, I love weddings! Of course Ginny will stick her finger down her throat and gag at the thought of Tom and B'Elanna together but didn't they look positively stuck on each other? I just loved it! The topper was having Seven catch the bouquet and Tuvok's little "You don't want to know" comment. The slow motion sequences - the sure sign that something ominous is lurking just ahead - was very effective. Terry, I spotted your GI - what a riot to see the action figures on top of the cake! The death scene was wonderfully done. Dawson was terrific. Thank goodness it wasn't overacted. McNeill's "Nooooo!" was a little overwrought but I'll accept it. Dang, Robbie, Roxann is a little tiny thing! You should have carried her into sickbay! Mac and I got the giggles at various times during the episode because it bordered on being silly in spots. I think we went over the edge when Seven was running around Engineering and Mac said, "Look! Her breasts are morphing!" Yea, what were YOU looking at, Mac? [The color of her uniform, of course! What did you think?] Anyway, we couldn't help thinking about the "Seven the Hag" thread every time we saw her in that makeup. She actually started to take on the skin tone and texture of the Borg Queen! Mulgrew's acting was appropriate for the deteriorating captain but I didn't get that same feeling for Beltran. He's melting away and near death and yet he acts like good old Chakotay. No signs in his voice or demeanor that he was struggling with his molecular changes. My feeling has always been that he has always found acting in SciFi a little too demeaning and silly for him. I was disappointed that the real Voyager wasn't able to salvage anything from the goo-Voyager after it exploded. I would have liked for them to have left something behind. A small token that Janeway would put in her room that she would mull over endlessly. Sigh! Voyager Fan -- 4 Mar 1999, 6:38 AM Seven in the Jeffries Tube. Regarding the ugly Seven, my husband noted that there was a very nice shot of Seven's - er, physique - crawling into the Jeffries tube with B'Elanna near the beginning of the show :) Of yes. Mac spotted THAT one too! Terry -- 4 Mar 1999, 7:54 AM Really? I never even noticed. Really. I didn't. And I didn't notice Roxann's, uh, caboose, either. SO there. Eric -- 4 Mar 1999, 11:26 AM It looked like Roxann noticed! I will have to catch the repeat on Saturday to make sure but it looked like B'Elanna was staring at Seven's errrrr, implants :-) Ginny -- 4 Mar 1999, 11:46 AM Maybe B'Elanna was looking on in horror at the prospect of being trapped in a small, confined space with the Twin Peaks. (^;-)8 Ohio Babe -- 4 Mar 1999, 8:01 AM Must be a guy thing because my guy also noticed her "crawling ability" in such a tight outfit! Eric -- 4 Mar 1999, 11:22 AM 2 Chicks in a Jeffries Tube... Yes, that was yummy, but that's my point! It made the horror of ugly Seven even more compelling!! I kept screaming NOOOoooooo when they did a close-up of my Borg Babe in the nasty-bad make-up. Sigh, but back to that jeffries tube, I was hoping they would make out in there :-) Ohio Babe -- 4 Mar 1999, 2:16 PM I'm not complaining about 7's nasty-looking face! It's the only time I'll be able to say I was better looking than her. Charting a different COURSE. Unlike everyone else (except D'Alaire), I found the ending of this episode incredibly affecting. When the viewscreen shot of the dispersing silver blood appears, I was startled and profoundly saddened. I really thought Harry would have an opportunity to at least begin a message to the real Voyager. But he didn't, and I was very moved by the ultimate tragedy of it all. GRIPES --O.K., O.K. The wedding wasn't as horribly maudlin or vilely precious as I had feared, but it was like most weddings are. The vows mean a whole lot more to the two participants, than they do the wedding guests, who just want the couple to hurry up and get to the good part--the kiss and the reception. And why weren't all the usual Voyager regulars among the wedding guest? --Nobody looks good in those bulky dress uniforms. --Why did they have to direct life-support to simulate Planet Y conditions? In DEMON, the Tom and Harry duplicates couldn't breathe the simulated Earth atmosphere on the ship. The duplicate crew of Voyager should therefore already have been living in Planet Y conditions. However, nice bit of attention to detail with having Kathryn address Tom as Lt. Paris in the wedding ceremony. Tom's last "Aye, sir", grated on me, though. --I'm like Terry. I wish I hadn't read the spoilers on this one. It would have been even more powerful if I hadn't known the premise. (NOTE: For the same reason, if you intend to see A SIMPLE PLAN at the movies--and I do recommend that you see it--don't read the book first.) --I thought the Greek chorus bit provided by Chakotay and Tuvok in Astrometrics was unnecessary and rather awkwardly done. A simple reference to the Demon planet was all that would have been needed to bring the audience up to speed. GRATIFYING BITS --The effect of the rice falling in slo-mo through the deck was pretty spiffy. As were the ripples across the Voyager hull. --Good interaction for several characters--B'Elanna and Seven, Kathryn and Chakotay, Harry and Tom, Kathryn and Neelix. And even I, yes I, thought the deathbed scene with Tom and B'Elanna was nicely done. But I also thought the conflict between Tom and Kathryn was equally well done. At first, I wondered about the duplicate Tom's "insolent" attitude and how quickly he, who owes everything to Kathryn (and does not have a THIRTY DAYS experience to lessen that debt of gratitude), turns on her. But I later decided that it was his grief and attendant anger speaking. --Our little Harry is growing up so fast. He is, once again, the "good little soldier", but without the naivete that diminishes such loyalty. He remained a fine and dedicated Starfleet officer, up to the bitter end. I'm telling ya, people, his agent has to have taken a big ol' stick to someone at Paramount. Did anyone else notice that Tom and Harry seemed to show the effects of the degradation less quickly than the other bridge crew? Was anything mentioned that would account for that, other than that they may not have had as much contact with Engineering (which I kinda doubt, in Tom's case)? --And here are the 47's: Stardate for Harry's log--525974 Good grief, Ginny. Don't do that to me. I'm still at work. I can't afford to laugh out loud as you get ever more creative with the 47's. I'll be particularly interested to see if the warp failure countdown and the 74 on Voyager's hull get counted, since if they are we might have to go back and count a lot of ship shots and countdowns. :-) And I agree with you. I wish that the initial premise - that it was the Demon copies of the crew - hadn't been quite so widely known, since while reaching the correct conclusion probably wouldn't be a huge leap for any regular viewer, I for one wouldn't have minded the exercise. That said however, I figured that it gave away enough of the plot just in that itself that I might as well wander over to Delta Blues and read Jim's review immediately instead of averting my eyes for a couple of weeks, so I guess there are always compensations... Terry -- 4 Mar 1999, 5:42 PM The full explanation was necessary since TPTB want to keep each episode comprehensible to the new or the casual viewer. I was wondering just how they would explain things and they did a good job. You and I know immediately what the Demon planet is but many viewers either never saw it or forgot the name. I was wondering when the truth would come out. I think they chose wisely to reveal it at the midpoint. Long enough to intrigue the unspoiled or slow viewer but not too long to bore the rest. And allowed the second half to concentrate on the self-realization of being copies. Shawnster -- 4 Mar 1999, 10:09 PM --And here are the 47's: Ginny, don't make me come over there... About the wedding and regular guest cast. I thought the same thing. I missed the two figures on the cake because I was busy looking for the Delaney sisters. And, in reference to Chakotay and Tuvok in Astrometrics; I know my dad's gonna say to me Saturday; "I don't remember them going to any of those planets..." Vickie T. -- 4 Mar 1999, 10:05 AM Wait, wait, wait! Well now that just doesn't make any sense at all! OK, OK, never mind. I won't ask. I won't wonder. I won't question one single big, fat, 18-wheeler size plot hole or unexplained event in this whole episode. Well, once you look at it that way, hey, I loved this episode! Tom and Chakotay in full dress uniform - yummy! An on-screen wedding ceremony and mention of an offscreen baby: Yes! I've been begging for this for years. Seven catching the bouquet and Tuvok's comment - LOL. B'Elanna, Queen of Engineering - as she should be. I loved the ways the crew reacted to discovering that they were goo duplicates. It made perfect sense that some would shrug and say, "So what?" while others were really shaken by the realization. I loved Chakotay's little talk with Janeway. Shades of Scorpion - "Sometimes you just don't know when to step back." I'm not sure I loved the characterization of Janeway as "The Obsessed," but it was certainly in character and consistent with her past behavior. (And that, I suppose, is a whole 'nother rant.) I kind of liked the ending, sad as it was. Here's a thought: since the duplicate Voyager was, apparently, much farther ahead of the real Voyager, wouldn't it be interesting to have the real Voyager meet up with someone that the duplicate Voyager had already come in contact with? "What are you doing back here?" "What are we doing back? I don't understand. We've never been here before." "Sure you have, don't you remember?" I didn't catch the cake decoration. Very funny. I also missed a few bits and pieces, especially at the end, because I was arguing with Chris about his math homework. "Son, I've already done the 7th grade. I know the meaning of relatively prime." Please don't ask why my son and I were arguing over math homework at 9:45 pm. That, too, is a whole 'nother rant. Sigh. Anyway, I'm going to try and catch either the Friday or Saturday replay. D'Alaire, I can tape it for you if no one gets it to you before then. BTW, Daniel chose to catch the Monica Lewinsky interview instead of Voyager. He was not favorably impressed by the young lady. D'Alaire -- 4 Mar 1999, 10:19 AM Thanks so, Vickie! However...Ann and I have conjured up a swap last night. Very sweet of you, thanks! Of Course, I was Oblivious...... to all but my television screen, during this episode. I loved it! Even the horribly tragic ending, which I thought was effective and affecting as a not-so-tied-up-in-a-pretty-red-ribbon-ending. First off, I was feeling pretty darn good while watching C:O, thanks to my oral surgeon and a pretty pink pill. So, if my review seems off kilter, blame it on modern meds. Just a quick overview of my thoughts: I was delighted to see the cake topper being Tom and B'Elanna figurines. Great looking cake, too (I'm hungry). And Harry playing his clarinet, I couldn't help but laugh at the predictability of it. The wedding ceremony was sweet, not overly sappy, although I thought RD did a much better job than RDM. He made up for it in the sickbay scene, though. Seven catching the bouquet, and Tuvok's comment about her not wanting to know the significance was cute. I was surprised that she didn;t know, considering that the Borg had all this knowledge on sexual customs of assimilated species. Maybe marriage traditions were considered "irrelevant" information and discarded. The slo-mo effect of the rice falling and subsequently seeping through the floor was very well done. As was the makeup of the melting crewmembers, including the detail paid to the hair. I actually got misty-eyed during B'Elanna's death scene. Tom looked in true agony. Kudos to RDM. And the same with Kate's reaction to Chakotay's death. Harry shone during C:O, especially during his command scenes. Geez, am I spacey today. I'll have to go more in-depth later. Anyhow, I give Course: Oblivion two thumbs up. Spacey T'Racy Shouldn't that be two fangs up, Trace? Fangs for the memories ... BTW, are you getting your fangs incisors worked on for cosmetic reasons? I talked to Robert Beltran yesterday and he said that he didn't notice any problem with your teeth at that convention. Ginny -- 4 Mar 1999, 6:05 PM Any problem with her teeth?! He probably wouldn't have noticed if she'd been missing her head. And after what Picardo said about RB signing the cast photos across Jeri Ryan's left breast, and the way his eyes wander during a scene, I'm beginning to rethink that whole, "I thought Beltran was gay." line of discussion. Shawnster -- 4 Mar 1999, 5:40 PM Melt, my lover melt... So many blazing orchids So Melt! Melt (excerpt from) Sorry, for some strange reason I've been thinking of this song since seeing the promo for Course: Oblivion (wanted to make it the song of the week but thought it was too obscure). Oblivion wasn't a bad episode. I kinda wish I hadn't been spoiled in advance with my knowledge that this wasn't the real crew. I wonder how I would have reacted had I been completely "oblivious" to that plot point. I did notice TPTB gave us little hints along the way that this wasn't the right crew. Well, one hint in particular, referring to Tom as Lt. instead of Ensign. I was pleased when they finally "let the cat out of the bag" halfway though the episode and revealed that they really were the creatures from the Demon planet. Characterization was pretty much on target. I found it quite believable for Tom to start questioning Janeway af-ter it was revealed everyone were duplicates. It really fits with Tom's persona. More and more Tom reminds me of my best friend in the way he reacts to certain situations. Tom, under extreme stress over losing his love, B'Elanna, discovers he's not the real Tom Paris, that his whole life has been a sham (so to speak), does what comes natural offend and push his problems away so he doesn't have to face the situation. Tom has grown in his five years but, when faced with extreme duress, reverts back to form. We're given a lot of glimpses at scenes we probably never will see. Tom and B'Elanna's wedding for one (I wouldn't mind seeing a real one but, wouldn't that be like repeating a story?) and Janeway eulogizing Chakotay was a very touching moment. Kinda regret Voyager will never know about this ship, what they went through. I thought the time capsule would have been recovered. Really drives home the gut-wrenching ending of the episode. It really felt like we watched the crew of Voyager slowly melt and die. My only real disappointment from the episode was Janeway's wedding speech. When Miles and Keiko O'Brien were wed on TNG's "Data's Day," Picard used the same speech that Kirk gave in "Balance of Terror." I was hop-ing Janeway would give the same one in a tip of the hat to the previous weddings we've seen on Star Trek. Mike -- 4 Mar 1999, 7:22 PM Now that's what I call a depressing episode! In fact, I believe 'Course: Oblivion' was the most depressing Trek episode I've ever seen. I was really hoping that the real Voyager would show up at the last minute and save the day, instead they teased us into thinking Voyager would arrive in time and they didn't. Likes: I've become a real P/Ter. I don't care what anyone else says, these two have GREAT chemistry together. I enjoyed seeing them get married and how the crew was reacting to the happy occasion. I was all choked up when B'Elanna (I understand they were duplicates) died. That discussion of the honeymoon they never got to share was very well-played and poignant. IMHO, RDM can play those types of scenes better than anyone else on Voyager. I could feel his pain watching his beloved B'Elanna die and right when they were finally starting their lives together. I had flashbacks to that scene where he was married to Kes and he was losing her too. Bravo, R.D.M. and R.D. Garrett Wang's performances this season continue to impress me. And, hey, Jason, didn't Kate look great again this week ! :^) The whole episode had true potential. Wonderful scenes with Chakotay giving away the bride and Harry as best man. But, I knew this was not reality, when Katie referred to Tom as "Lieutenant" instead of "Ensign" during the wedding, I was sure. I wasn't sure how they were going to explain who these people really were. I was completely caught off guard when Tuvok and Chakotay announced that they were all duplicates from the Demon planet! I even said "WHAT!" out loud to my wife when that was revealed. Nice continuity, following up to a previous episode like that. I wish they would do that more often. DS9 has them beat in that regard. How come the original crew can't come up with that enhanced warp drive that the duplicate crew developed? And didn't it seem like the duplicate Seven and Torres got along much better than their original counterparts? Dislikes: There was supposed to be some kind of analogy in this story, but it fell flat for me. I Hate sad endings with a capital "H". They get us to like these characters for an hour, then give us nothing at the end, no hope at all, not even an acknowledgement that these beings ever existed beyond their home planet. No "time capsule" like they wanted, nothin'. Up till then I was really caught up in the episode. Unfortunately the ending ruined it all for me. That's just the way I am, the ending can make or break an episode for me. To sum it up, this episode goes to the bottom of my list for this season. It was well -acted and the premise had great potential, but the ending was so depressing that it ruined the whole experience for me. Oh, Mike--totally agreed. Well, the ep wasn't totally ruined for me, but I felt the very same about the end--well, actually, I was absolutely livid, and still am getting angry. I hate sad endings, too, and this one was a kicker. Gritty is fine, but at least leave some hope in it, some hint, even if unanswered, that there could be some good to come out of their suffering and struggle. I don't watch Trek for such incredible downers. Without any resonance, whatever "real life"/"tragic meaning" thingy they were trying to pull off, the meaning is nothing. If that's what they meant, then I'm more than ever in the camp that hates that kind of artsy/angsty/French tragedy cr@p. I liked that duplicate crew a lot, too. It was wonderful to see the endearingness back in the crew, if only for a while. Only to get killed off and forgotten--little wonder it pissed me off. And yes, the P/T really was astounding, along with the other performances being very good, which I'll happily watch (and likely FF over the end when I get the tape). That's what saved it for me. I've already said it before, and I'll say it again. I "liked" this ending--meaning that I thought it had emotional impact and dramatic power. Of course, I also like Greek and Shakespearean tragedy. And that's what this reminded me of, in a way. And why not? Star Trek's been ripping off, er, paying homage to Shakespeare for decades. What we have here are indisputably heroic characters, who nevertheless have a fatal flaw in their collectives natures. Granted, not in their emotional or spiritual natures, as with Macbeth or Lear, but in their physical natures. And just as relentlessly as those emotional/spiritual flaws and Fate drive the protagonist in a tragedy to despair and ruin, so the fundamental corruption in the duplicate crews' physiological character leads them to despair and annihilation. And not even the gods can stop the inevitable destruction. So? you say. What's the point? Well, you obviously can't run a weekly television show like a Shakespearean tragedy. No one would survive sweeps week, and that would be the end of that. But you can use an isolated episode that does essentially the same thing for modern audiences that tragedy did for Old World audiences--letting them in on a little cosmic secret, which is this: "There, but for fortuitous timing, the generosity of strangers, and a little divine intervention, go you or I." Or, for that matter, the Voyager crew. I'm telling you, the more I think about this one, the more I like it. I suppose Mike and I are somewhat alone in it. Well, not so alone, as there's others who agree, but I think we felt the strongest about it here. IMO, there's seen plenty of angst this season. H*ll, the crew's already AU died, save Harry and Chuck. That was a happy ending with resonance, true. But there's been gobs of little tragedies and flaws and failings and suffering through the whole season, good as the season may have been. As I said, grit is fine, if not depressing in overdose, but meaninglessness to the crew is still a restart button I don't like. I don't expect flowers and sunshine all the time, and I like good drama, but I also despise sad endings, and this one in particular irked me badly. (shrug) The more I think about CO's end, the more I don't like it. Just my feelings on it. I still loved the rest of the ep. I just didn't appreciate ultimate tragedy as much as others. Of course, I've never been a fan of them, anyway, Greek or otherwise. Mike -- 4 Mar 1999, 9:08 PM We're not so alone, D'Alaire....for one, my wife hated this episode because of the ending and I think I read a few other comments from people who were disappointed by the ending. And before I forget, how come those items on the ship that weren't from the Demon planet didn't survive the ship's destruction? I'm referring to items like duplicate Neelix mentioned when they were trying to figure out what was happening to them. Shouldn't Voyager have found these items floating in space even after the ship desolved? Maybe I missed the explanation or maybe there just wasn't one. Mike (a tragedy hater) D'Alaire -- 4 Mar 1999, 9:28 PM Gobblety gook technobabble somewhere... I think, in that same scene. I wasn't able to tape it, so I haven't been able to rewatch it. But I think there was a blurb from Tuvok about it being affected (he said something about the plants, I recall, that was babbly), or if not, maybe those things slipped out of a hole in the ship. (shrug) --D'Alaire (fellow tragedy hater) Eric -- 4 Mar 1999, 10:00 PM The objects were smashed when Goo Voyager hit a brick wall...or rather a *light* wall. When Seven ejected the Core, it was like smacking into a wall at high speed! Without the warp field to protect the ship, Goo Voyager was crushed like an eggshell. Poof! No potted plants! Terry -- 4 Mar 1999, 10:23 PM A problem with the warp core ejection. Eric reminded me of a nit that I forgot. When Seven ejects the warp core, it was treated like a minor event. The last time Voyager ejected the core, they evacuated Engineering and closed all of the emergency bulkheads. The room was then opened to vacuum as the core was ejected. Here, Seven just pushed a button and looked over her shoulder at the core being ejected. No one else left either. And where were the special effects of the core ejection? You're not alone. I didn't particularly care for the ending either. I got so angry in fact I threw my plastic Arowhead water bottle I was drinking from at the time at the TV. Now, I didn't hate this episode, even with the ending. I hardly think it was the worst of the season either. When I realized what happened to the duplicate crew, I felt like someone had shot me through the heart. Any episode that can get that kind of emotional response out of me (even if it was mixed with disgust), deserves some kudos. I had come to care about the duplicated crew enough that I wanted someone, anyone it didn't have to be the crew of the real Voyager, to know something about what they went through. But to me the whole ending seemed to smack of "reset button." I was livid when the did it with Year of Hell. Nick Sagan and Byron Fuller had taken these people to the point of extinction and then didn't seem to know what to do, so they killed them all off. "They lived, they died, who cares? Next!" I love dark, gritty episodes, I really do (or else I could never love shows like The Twilight Zone and The X-Files as much as I do). But I guess with Trek I expect something a little different, even when it goes dark -- a ray of light no matter how faint it might be. But this episode didn't have one, anywhere. Maybe I was more shocked by that ending than anything else. Guess I'll go watch the episode again and see how I react this time (I usually watch a episode twice after it airs, but I couldn't bring myself to last night after my first reaction). Mike -- 4 Mar 1999, 8:55 PM I see enough tragedy on the evening news...or in every day life, so I don't need to watch it for entertainment. I guess I'm just funny that way. To each his own. AnnM. -- 4 Mar 1999, 9:47 PM I wished that it gave a little hope... Just let Harry get a message out that they existed and had left the planet. So don't have the capsule make it but give us a little bright spot at the end. I don't watch Star Trek for tragedy. I can handle it in small doses but was not expecting the ending to be such a downer. Maybe I'll just rewatch the opening scenes and not watch the ending. :) AnnM. Don't you think it DID give "a little Hope" ?... But the Hope wasn't offered to the duplicate crew but rather to the Fans of Voyager. TPTB may have been trying to assuage the masses by saying "Look, we know we have an obsessed Captain, an angst driven Commander and a loyal crew that would follow them over the 'edge of the cliff' in the Best Star Trek tradition, but they do have the power within themselves to realize their flaws and to work to correct them?" If you want a ray of light in this dark episode, that one may be as sharp as the first beam from a rising sun peaking over the horizon. D47 On the other hand... it's as easy to have the impression (as I did) that the duplicate crew didn't go through as much angst as the originals. Think about it--the duplicates, by the nature of their beginnings, were more social, more inclined to experience and feel and commune. T&B were getting married, a baby was born to a crewmember, B'Elanna and Seven were getting along, nobody would mind stopping to explore a phenomenon of the way &c. Everyone was talking about being together, not wallowing in their separate pains or fighting to communicate. I personally think they had a happier, fuller existence than the original crew, because that was a trait of their beginnings. They wanted, if subconsciously, to explore and discover, to be together, without as much baggage (which was there, but they seemed to have stood up against it and moved on with life). Only when they discovered they weren't real did that easiness slip. Also, there's a lot of things that a more "social" attitude might have changed in the crew in the time since Demon. Vis a Vis, One, Hope and Fear, Night, ER, Timeless, 30 Days, among others, would not have happened or turned out rather differently because of their latent urge to be a community, to not be alone. What slight ray of light I see is that such happiness and coming together is/was a potential in the "real" crew, as I think you did mention. However, with their experiences and without those latent urges the duplicate crew had, they're on another path. Perhaps it'll be there for them sometime, but there's no sign of it now, no chance of it happening because of this ep, as they still know no other way but what they have. That's why I would have liked that proverbial "heads-up" in the form of those logs--not to do anything but make the originals think about their own lives--or at least ponder how it could have been different (if the logs were incomplete/degraded somehow). With no awareness at all of that other route or way of living, the original crew might have taken, the ep became completely bleak, and meaningless to the show in itself--a restart button. Oblivion's *hope*. D47: But the Hope wasn't offered to the duplicate crew but rather to the Fans of Voyager. There is another kind of hope to be gathered from this ep. The goocrew, who became so obkessed and absorbed by their new personalities that they became the Voyager crew. With their acquired knowledge and the resources available on the duplicate Voyager, they made considerable progress toward earth. The hope is that our intrepid crew can accomplish just as much and come just as close. Like several other people, I disliked the ending because the regular crew didn't have the opportunity to *learn* that their replacements made considerable progress toward home. The goocrew's plight was ultimately hopeless. It could have had meaning had they left behind the knowledge of their accomplishments. Eric -- 4 Mar 1999, 10:07 PM I'm reminded of a old Peanuts cartoon...Linus and his his sister Lucy are walking in the dark and Lucy is grumbling because it's so hard to see. Finally Linus says "It's better to light a candle then curse the darkness. Lucy thinks about this awhile and then screams : STUPID DARKNESS! Anyway, what I'm trying to say is : How can you appreciate all those happy endings without any SAD ones? Without sad endings you might as well watch Friends, or a thousand clones! I for one like the darkness, it reminds me why we have the day. And *that* is about as philosophical as I will ever get :-) Dear, Professor Eric, about night and day... Eric Plato said: ;^) I see what you're getting at, Professor Whippersnapper, but for me anyway, I see so many sad endings in the real world that for entertainment I look to television for happy endings. Maybe I'm just extra down because of what happened at work a few days ago. A co-worker of mine was down in our company cafeteria, his wife came to join him for lunch, like she often did. Over the years you could see that these two were really in love. During their lunch the poor guy had a heart attack and died right in front of his poor helpless wife and many co-workers. The man was only in his mid fifties and was thought to be in good health. Now that is what real tragedy is all about, so I don't need to see this kind of stuff for entertainment. I can appreciate the happy endings because I see enough sad endings (darkness) to appreciate the happy endings (day) as you put it so well. Real life if full of sad ending to compare to the happy fairy tale ones we often see on TV. Of course all this is just my humble opinion, and maybe it just comes from what I've seen in the real world over the years. Deborah47 -- 5 Mar 1999, 5:48 AM We call this a DEMON sequel, but it's also a sequel to one of my favorite 2nd season shows, DEADLOCKED. In that one the crew was duplicated and drew on their common life and memories up to the time of duplication. Then they started to diverge as each crew had different experiences. We only got to watch for a few hours before they discovered each other and started to work together. In this What If scenario, we see what would have happened if it was 10 months between birth and awareness. We see a Friendlier Seven and B'Elanna not because they are more Open to change, but rather because THEIR experience in the Delta Q brought Them closer, vs our two still being distrustful of each other. (I guess Seven didn't bite the duplicate B'Elanna's cheek!). What was it Jules said a few days ago, "I guess that's why it's called science FICTION." That's why I like this genre and this show in particular. It allows us the What If scenario without making it all a dream as Janeway "steps out of the steamy bath" at the end. (Remember what I said before, guys, the sonic shower won't work for this plot device. You need the steam!) TKS -- 5 Mar 1999, 2:44 PM That's it! '"...the generosity of strangers,..."', That has always been my defense of Voyager. Despite the evil AOTW, I know that Voyager is meeting aliens that are helping them and offering them supplies. I know that it isn't given to them for nothing, but they are definitely benefiting. I know that the Voyager crew have left a negative impact on some aliens, and vise versa. For each negative, I know that there is a positive impact either way. I do know that Voyager is making a positive impact on the delta quadrant, or they wouldn't have made it this far. TKS -- 5 Mar 1999, 12:03 PM Ahhh Statistics, I can hear Disraeli or Twain saying,..."Lies, Damn lies, and statistics," that quote has been attributed to both. I don't agree with you entirely, since I liked the ending. The real Janeway noted the destruction of a ship in her log. She doesn't know that it was the duplicate crew, but she knows something or someone was lost. Was it all for nothing. Were there any consequences. What an ending, I had wondered if anything could be retrieved from the duplicate Voyager, but it wasn't to be. The only thing that the real Voyager crew knew is that a ship and crew were lost and the real Janeway noted it in her logs. It was very tragic, but I believe that the duplicate crews lives had meaning, for the short while that they existed I'll agree it was depressing. I enjoy an ensemble piece, and this one shined. I didn't enjoy the wedding scene as much as I enjoyed the scene in sickbay with Tom and B'Elanna, both RD and RDM were spectacular. That scene rivals the Janeway/Tuvok scene from Year of Hell IMHO. Duplicate Janeway was still relentless in her pursuit of the Alpha quadrant and to Earth. Both Janeway and Tom didn't accept the fact that they were both duplicates. Duplicate Chakotay managed to convince Janeway to return to the Demon planet, but of course he died. Our beloved duplicate Janeway admits she is wrong, and eulogizes Chakotay, she called him her friend. Harry and 7 were fantastic as well, 7 obeying Harry's orders and launching a probe, to tell others that they existed, but the probe was destroyed. The words that Harry spoke at the end, and the reluctant realization that nothing that they did would be remembered was poignant. Did the environmentals on the duplicate Voyager match the environment of a Y class planet? It certainly seemed as though the crew was breathing oxygen. I noted that they approached a Y class planet to either survive on the planet or at least recuperate before returning to their mission. Did the duplicate Voyager crew get supplies from M class planets? I would think so, since the real Voyager crew would take supplies from M class planets. I wonder, was the food compatible with their biology? The duplicate Voyager crew was ahead of the real Voyager crew, and each has made first contact with different aliens. I wonder will the real Voyager crew meet the some of the aliens that duplicate Voyager has? Perhaps not, and we may never know if the duplicate Voyager crew ever made an impact in the future. I would say this qualifies as an open ended story. I don't necessarily want all my questions answered. I enjoy thinking, and at times Star Trek is very good at making you think. Voyager Fan -- 5 Mar 1999, 8:03 AM I totally agree with you! I'm on another list where "Oblivion" is getting very positive reviews, similar to those here, and am VERY relieved to read that someone else disliked the episode because of its ending. People are making good points about what there is to LIKE in the episode, BUT the ultimate fate of the alternate Voyager crew was OBLIVION. And perhaps this wouldn't have seemed QUITE so awful if the crew had accepted oblivion as their fate. But they fought it with their dying breaths. Their last, passionate attempts to leave something behind, ANYTHING, about themselves, their lives, their experiences, were a heart-rending exercise in futility.... Constance I submit the ending WAS depressing and distressing... and I feel for the trauma that Mike has recently gone through. Mortality in real life can certainly color your view of what you want from your SF fantasy. But this talk of endings makes me think of something my 12th grade English Lit teacher told us about Shakespeare. Evidently many years ago there was a movement to clean up the Bard's racier passages (political correctness even then) and to repair the depressing end to Romeo & Juliet. In the rewrite, Juliet's attempt at her suicide with that wretched knife was unsuccessful, Romeo awoke from his death sleep to proclaim his love, the two families arrived on the scene to give their blessing to the union and...THEY LIVED HAPPILY EVER AFTER! Somehow, methinks if that was the tale that survived the centuries, I wouldn't have had to study it in Lit, and Gwynth Paltrow wouldn't have been on Leno tonight talking about her Oscar nomination for playing the star crossed lover in "Shakespeare in Love". Constance, you wrote,"their last passionate attempts to leave something behind, anything...(was) a heart rendering lesson in futility." How can we demean their "attempts" when they obviously succeeded so well? Will you soon forget them? In the end, Voyager isn't written every week for the benefit of the crew, but for our benefit. From reading all the positive and Negative comments about this show, I'd say we benefited greatly from this episode. Mike, I can deliver a multitude of platitudes about death but I won't. (I hear a gasp in the darkness). Death sucks scissors. But if I may focus on one thing you mentioned about the incident. You said how his wife would often come to work and eat lunch with him. It made me smile to read that. She cared enough to do it, had the ability to do it and was able to share more of his life and hers because she was there during those lunches. Even that last hard lunch. So often I have to deal with the after effects of people who couldn't BE there for the end of a love's life, that tragic though it was for her to see it, I suspect it was best in the long run. As for our Valiant Crew of Voyager, they heard a distress call and worked like demons to answer it. They did not succeed, and they KNOW that. They do not know who these fellow travelers were, and that anonymity WILL bother them, for will they not think"...But for the grace of God go I...?" Perhaps that will be their wake up call (like Mike's in the cafeteria) that death can happen at ANY time and they'd best not waste any more of the journey by putting their lives on hold. For isn't it time for everyone to realize that the goal of Life IS the journey, and not "the alpha quadrant". If they can only do that, WHAT adventures will they find! D47 Mike -- 6 Mar 1999, 10:06 AM Deborah, I thoroughly enjoyed reading your view on the worth of 'C:O'. This was the kind of thought- provoking post I love to read and what I come here hoping for. Very well said. Now I'd like to comment a little more on this episode, by responding to what you stated so very eloquently. "Evidently many years ago there was a movement to clean up the Bard's racier passages (political correctness even then) and to repair the depressing end to Romeo & Juliet. In the rewrite, Juliet's attempt at her suicide with that wretched knife was unsuccessful, Romeo awoke from his death sleep to proclaim his love, the two families arrived on the scene to give their blessing to the union and...THEY LIVED HAPPILY EVER AFTER! Somehow, methinks if that was the tale that survived the centuries, I wouldn't have had to study it in Lit, and Gwynth Paltrow wouldn't have been on Leno tonight talking about her Oscar nomination for playing the star crossed lover in "Shakespeare in Love"." I certainly agree that it would be wrong to change any works of literature to "repair" them. Personally I feel that Romeo and Juliet is remembered more for the poetic way it was written rather than for the tragedy of the story it told. If the same story was written by some one with less talent than the Bard it would not have become the classic it became. In other words, for me anyway, I would have remembered Romeo and Juliet for its beautiful wording no matter how it ended. IMHO, it was the words, not the ending, that made it a classic: "On the white wonder of dear Juliet's hand -William Shakespeare ('Romeo and Juliet') Writing like that would have made it a classic even if the ending was happy. Of course I'm not saying the ending should be changed, I'm just saying that in 'Romeo and Juliet' it was the journey, not the destination, that made the story memorable, for me. Not so with 'Course: Oblivion'. Especially the more I think about it. "How can we demean their "attempts" when they obviously succeeded so well? Will you soon forget them? In the end, Voyager isn't written every week for the benefit of the crew, but for our benefit. From reading all the positive and Negative comments about this show, I'd say we benefited greatly from this episode." But did they succeed and did we benefit? If the message this episode gave us had more meaning maybe I would have appreciated it better. But look what it gave us in these examples: We finally see a wedding between crew members take place on Voyager and best of all it's between B'Elanna and Tom who have finally matured enough to become vulnerable and open with their love for one another. Result: B'Elanna dies before the honeymoon and Tom's heart and spirit are shattered to pieces. Janeway finally compromises and realizes that her obsession with getting the crew back to the AQ is not as important as the welfare and safety of her crew. At last she listens to reason and sees the benefit of backing down. Result: Her crew and ship are destroyed anyway. They would have fared just as well if Janeway had There was no redeeming message to the story. What I want to see happen with the real crew was rewarded with tragedy when it happened for the duplicate crew. Unlike in 'Romeo and Juliet' there was no poetic beauty to the journey toward the sad ending. "They do not know who these fellow travelers were, and that anonymity WILL bother them, for will they not think"...But for the grace of God go I...?" Perhaps that will be their wake up call..." But what a much better wake up call it would have been if they had only been able to read the demon crew's logs and seen the reflection of themselves in those logs. They've probably already encountered many wrecked ships with no story behind them so they already know "there, but for the grace of God go I". And one more thing that bothered me about this episode. Before this, I kind of liked thinking that the duplicates were doing what the Voyager crew did not do. They were settled on a planet, maybe paired off in couples starting families and colonizing a new world (so to speak). I liked thinking that at least on that world maybe Chakotay and Janeway had gotten together. Again, I really enjoyed your post Deborah. And about your thoughts on the work tragedy I experienced this past week, you're right, at least his wife was with him and they were sharing his last moments together. That's worth something, I should think. I really enjoyed your post too. And Romeo and Juliet is one of my favorite works of Shakespeare, and the Zefferelli (sp) movie is also one of my favorite movies, in spite of the fact I need a box of Kleenex to watch it. One very small consolation to the thwarted lovers fate, however, is that the feud between the families presumably ends. So their death had some positive, lasting consequence. But maybe what you are saying is that whenever death inevitably comes, it MIGHT not have lasting consequences, so if one cares about that sort of thing, one should focus on making one's LIFE have meaning and value. And I PARTICULARLY like your last comment about how our "valiant crew" seeing the remains of the alternate Voyager might be affected, even if they don't know the identity of the destroyed ship. Cmdr. 8472 -- 5 Mar 1999, 8:22 PM One thing about the wedding scene...that I remembered thinking was when Harry goes back and that one person throws the clarinet to him. *LOL* I was like, "NO!!! No, stupid! Do NOT throw clarinets!" (the clarinet I have right now has broken 3 times..once from falling off a desk, once from falling over, and a third time for no apparent reason). Well..now I get a new clarinet. Maybe tomorrow. :-) I thought the ending was just soooo sad..but that's kind of a good thing. We're all so used to seeing, "And they all lived happily ever after..for the most part" endings on Star Trek, it was cool to see one that was different. I thought the message beacon wasn't going to be destroyed, and the whole thing would be a flashback from the real Voyager. Then, the real Voyager crew could use the duplicates' idea for the special warp drive and cut down their time to get home. Marie -- 6 Mar 1999, 3:46 PM The thing about C:O, Mike is that it whether you liked it or not, it was very effective. The better Trek shows often generate strong viewpoints, pro and con. They make us think and feel, even if it's emotions like anger or sadness. The truly bad, or simply uninspiring, episodes don't do that (Think FAVORITE SON, for example). In general, I avoid real downers when I watch TV or movies. There are, indeed, a lot of sad endings in real life and I want to be uplifted. Occasionally, however, I do like a more sobering ending, if it's well done. It makes me appreciate what I have and re-evaluate how I'm living my life and what's important to me. I don't see the duplicate Voyager crew's lives as futile. For a short while, they were sentient, thinking, feeling beings, who experienced space exploration, contact with other species and planets, and the joys and agonies of personal relationships. Heck, in some areas, they lived their lives better and smarter than the real Voyager crew. After all Tom and B'Elanna committed their lives to each other, and the crew found a way to get to earth faster. Perhaps another way to think about it: if you believe God doesn't exist (or let's pretend a minute if you don't) and death truly is the end, will your life have been worthless? The people whose lives you touched would, after all, simply cease to exist when they died. Would you rather simply die now or take every moment you are alive and live it to the hilt? It's hard for me to truly answer those questions, because I do believe in God. I do think that if I thought this life, here and now, was all I'd ever have, that I'd put more effort into it. C:O made me think of those things. On the other hand, I can certainly understand, Mike, why an ending like this would strike you very negatively. As long as death isn't too close to us, we can face it in art and fiction. When it is too close, that's the last thing we want to be "entertained" by. About a year ago when I had to have a biopsy, every time I ran across a TV show or movie that dealt with death, it completely freaked me out. Fortunately, things turned out fine for me, but there are still movies I can't bear to watch, that deal with death within a family. Good point, Marie, and it's one I've seen expressed by others... Marie said: I'll go along with that point, Marie. If nothing else, this episode sure did make me want to discuss it in-depth. Any episode that provided such an interesting discussion for us must be worth something, even if I do hate tragic endings. I guess I'm repeating myself now, but I really would have liked this episode so much better, if they had been able to some how leave their mark on the real Voyager crew's lives. I suppose that we could think that they did leave their mark on the cultures they may have encountered on their journey. If I remember correctly the duplicate Chakotay and Tuvok were discussing encounters with other cultures since they had left the Demon planet. Perhaps at least some beings on a planet they came across will always remember them from their visit. And, maybe if I had seen this episode at a better time (not having just lost a co-worker), I would have taken it more philosophically even if I could never say I liked it. To me, this episode had great potential that was never achieved because of a poor ending. | ||
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