Dark Frontier

SuzyQ -- 17 Feb 1999, 5:03 PM

Dark Frontier...the ep where Seven finally utters the immortal line:

"Which one of you b*tches wants to be my mother?"

Well, it was catchy when Phoebe Cates said something like it back in the 80's...

BTW, happy belated b-day, ande! And, welcome Ohio Babe. And, thanks for the tape, Ginny; got it yesterday but have been too swamped with work and life in general to watch it. Will send my XFILES comments soon. And, Eric, Terry, and Ruthie - my BUFFY thoughts are a-comin'.

Now back to your regularly scheduled on-topic posting...

D'Alaire -- 17 Feb 1999, 8:40 PM

I got the satellite schedule mixed up and saw part two before part one, so now I'll have to watch it again to get it straight.

I will say I snorted aloud when I heard them call injured Borg "Junior."

Much of what I did see, though, was interesting, if not slightly long on the tension side (but I saw part two first) with very excellent FX--lots of spooky horrorshop stuff. They'd have been really well of showing it around Halloween, al those creepy assimilation scenes. Queen Borg was sufficiently eerie and slick. And Daddy Hansen--not surprising to see him there but it fit in nicely with the rest of the creepy stuff.

That is one thing the Borg can deliver every time--chills.

My favorite thing though--Seven finally snips off on Doc that it was her parents fault she ended up in the collective. Unfortunately, I saw that almost last. I seriously have to wonder about her parents, too. Love of one's science is one thing, but...hmm. That rubbed oddly on me.

I'll watch it again later to get everything (like the entire plot, all the character motivations, all the emotional turns) straight and comment later. But a couple things first:

Okay, when did Starfleet know about the Borg?! I am totally confused, now, with TNG canon vs. whatever's gone through TPTB's heads since then. I know we've discussed this before, but I seriously need to rationalize this again, now that we learn that the Hansens were approved by SF to study the Borg--was it all that dang classified? (moths flying around in the brain) If so, then "all of [their] colleagues" must have been in on it. (?)

They know how to utilize Borg transwarp now. So now we know they need the Borg Node thingy in order to utilize go transwarp without going salamander. And the junctures burn out, so they can't use it too long. Okay, I can see that. So, at the [end], they got another 15-20 thousand years closer to home. What's the total now, Jules? Have they passed earth yet? What is it? 30 K LY now? I'll have to peek again at your calculation later on.

Hmmmm, good point D'Alaire, how long has in been since BoBW?
Eric -- 17 Feb 1999, 9:49 PM

Let's see, the Borg showed up in the 3rd season of TNG right?

uhhh 4 years of TNG (7 seasons)

and 2 years of DS9 until we jump to

4 years when Seven joined the Voyager crew.

So roughly 10 years in the collective, plus Annika looked around say 5 years when she was assimilated. Hmmm, Seven does NOT look like a 15 year old! Something IS missing here.

Is there a Star Trek conspiracy?? Did Starfleet know about the Borg before Picard met them?? I smell a section 31 cover-up!

First season, TNG...
D'Alaire -- 17 Feb 1999, 9:56 PM

The Neutral Zone gave hints--not conclusion--at a Borg attack around the NZ, which pattern of devastation was noted later in BoBW.

The Borg showed up first in the latter part of the 2nd season-- Q Who?, where Q throws the Enterprise into contact with the Borg, and where Guinan warns Picard, "They will be coming."

According to TNG canon, anyway. (shrug)

Actually, the Borg first showed up in Q Who?
Carol -- 17 Feb 1999, 9:59 PM

Which was during TNG's second season (and a episode I also happen to have on tape).

However, there was the suggestion in that episode that the Borg attacked the Federation once before though they didn't know who it was at the time in TNG's The Neutral Zone during the shows first season.

So either A) TPTB are setting up something like the Feds knew about the Borg before Q flung the Enterprise to section J25 in Q Who? or B) Someone screwed up with continuity and Seven is the oldest looking sixteen year old ever. :-)

Wah! I don't know, D'Alaire.
Jules -- 18 Feb 1999, 1:37 AM

Seems to me that they've done half their journey since I last saw an episode - and that was only a week and a half ago. :-)

15-20,000 light years, hmm? I think that would put them 30-35,000 light years from home. They were saying 60,000 reasonably consistently last season after the Kes jump, and I believe someone - Terry? - said that they'd mentioned it being 50,000 light years in Gravity, which ties in with the jump from "Timeless". Although I'm guessing that they're tending to round up/down to the nearest 5,000 light years at the moment for convenience's sake.

As it happens, I'm in the process of retouching my maps - my Grand Plan to give the Nebula a facelift within the next couple of months has now progressed beyond page layout to turn its attention to content - and also because they accidentally became horribly dithered when I moved them from one art package to another about a year back. I think I shall try and get the job done by the time I see this episode, so that I can pinpoint Voyager's new location.

But no, they haven't overshot Earth yet. Could well be knocking on the door of the Beta Quadrant though. Oh, I do hope so!

Gee, I think they passed Earth last week...
ande -- 18 Feb 1999, 1:52 AM

Very funny about them passing Earth, D'Alaire. Ok, all you math wizards out there; how far are they from home now? I don't care to take a guess as I really suck at math.

I did have a question about the Borg transwarp thingy. Why couldn't they scan it and then use the replicators to replicate another one when the one they liberated from the Borg broke? At the very least B'Elanna and 7 should be able to build another one, shouldn't they?

Remember Stagecoach...
Deborah47 -- 18 Feb 1999, 2:44 AM

RE: why can't they scan the transwarp coil and replicate it? Director John Ford responded to a similar ? about his film Stagecoach. "Why didn't the Indians just shoot the horses instead of chasing the stage for 2 hours? John said, "Cause then there'd be no movie."

Voyage into the heart of the Dark Frontier.
Carol -- 17 Feb 1999, 8:52 PM

Well, it didn't knock my off my feet, but it was extremely well done. I've said before that I was getting more than a little tired of the Borg and though the episode is definitely one of the top ones this year, I'm still not in any hurry to see the Borg again for a long time.

Cheers

In the grand tradition of Star Trek two parters, I thought the first hour was better than the second. I love how the episode started, showing Voyager and the confrontation from the Borg's point of view. All the Borg attacks we've seen have been from the Federations point of view so this was a great change by the writers.

The first Borg Heist scene being nothing more than a holodeck simulation surprised me too, as did the Seven/Naomi dream sequence scene which turned into Seven's first communication with the Borg Queen.

Kate Mulgrew and Jeri Ryan both gave excellent performances. Though I don't think the Janeway/Seven mother-daughter relationship between the two characters was elevated to another level beyond what we've already seen before (during almost all of last season), the dynamic itself always works when the two put their best effort into it, and they both did so here.

The scene between Janeway, Seven and The Borg Queen had just the right spark and tension to it, though there was some things about it that disappointed me (I'll save it for the other part of my review).

I also particularly liked the scene between Janeway and Naomi. I'd been waiting for those two to have a scene together sometime and Naomi's concerns for her friend Seven, to the point of thinking up a rescue plan, were very nice. I was a little afraid that Naomi would sneak aboard the Delta Flyer to go and help rescue Seven (as much as I like her, Naomi sometimes does have shades of the "Precocious Child Wesley" about her), and I'm extremely glad that wasn't the case.

Seven has grown now to the point where she's actually trying to save other people's lives from assimilation now, which shows how far she's come over the past two years. Great show of anxiety by Jeri Ryan during all her scenes with the Borg Collective. Though I predicted well before the first hour was up that we'd see her assimilated father before the show ended (but where was her mother? Wasn't mom just as important to her as "Papa"?). And Seven secret weapon? Sarcasm. Her comment about using bringing order to chaos instead of resistance is futile and maybe getting volunteers to join the Borg was amusing.

The direction in both parts was moody and tight. I didn't see anything to me that screamed that one person directed one part and someone else directed the other (like I could with last year's The Killing Game). I did feel as though I was watching a movie that seamlessly flowed together. Also, Foundation Imaging again proved how big a asset they've become to the show with terrific effects.

A few other cast members got a lot to do as well, particularly Chakotay and Tuvok (Robert Beltran appeared to actually be awake :-).

Count one shuttle assimilated. :-)

Jeers

I guess I was spoiled by Alice Krieg in First Contact or something because I didn't particularly care for Suzanna Tompson's Borg Queen. She did almost nothing for me (though her put-the-head-and-body-together scene was good, I liked how she stretch and rolled her shoulders :-). The final confrontation between Janeway and the Queen wasn't as big as I was hoping it would be -- it needed a little more edge to it, which was lacking on her part.

And why did the Queen let the ship of Aliens that Seven saved go? I didn't completely understand that (was she trying to get on Seven's good side?).

I usually never scream something like this, but: Continuity Error Alert! The Borg first appeared in the TNG episode Q Who? during TNG's second season. So the Hanson's would have had to make their tip to find the Borg sometime after this episode, because the Borg were unknown to the Federation before then, which would be about ten years prior to Voyager (I'm not getting into the whole thing regarding the outposts in the episode The Neutral Zone during the end of TNG's first season).

If Seven was assimilated when she was six year old (or four years old, I'm don't think its quite clear how old she was, just that she was very young) then, she should only be about sixteen years old now, not twenty-something, like she's shown as being.

And, from the dialogue, you'd think the Hanson's formulated some of the already standing knowledge of the Borg taken by the Enterprise (like the Borg not attacking until they perceived something or someone as a threat).

Like I said before, I wasn't in the least surprised when Seven's father showed up when he did. But her mother should have been there too. (But I guess Janeway and the Borg Queen filled that role).

The ending was very YAATE as far as the Borg went (was the Queen destroyed again?) I get the feeling TPTB might be setting up for something with the Borg again (sigh). Though I did like the red-herring with the transwarp conduit and the tense moment when it seemed like more cubes would appear. :-)

Anyway, while I'd say this was definitely one of the top episodes of the season, as Borg episodes go, I still liked Scorpion better. (And for this season, I liked Timeless and Counterpoint more too). But all in all, a very good job by Braga, Menoskey, Kate and Jeri. Voyager should do a two hour movie again (but please, with a different subject matter/enemies :-)

Rationalization #1?
Deborah47 -- 18 Feb 1999, 3:27 AM

I don't think that the Hansens are the basis of StarFleet knowledge about the Borg. I think they were just making obvious observations like any good field researchers. Also, I don't think that when they got their grant, to go Borg hunting, that they had any firm evidence the Borg even existed. It seemed more like they were following rumors, myths, clues gleaned from other civilizations. Like the guy who went looking for the lost city of Troy in the 1800's. One of their discussions made it sound like they were the only ones who believed in the existence of such a civilization. I don't think Picard on the Enterprise in season 2 would be expected to know about every "failed" theory on rumored "species" that the science communities have ever worked on. The Hansens never came back,their theories were probably deleted from the general data bases. As for season 2 being 10 years ago: Well just because that was when Picard found them in our "time" doesn't mean its 10 in theirs (Obviously we have an ensign in charge of recording Star Dates who didn't know which end was up in season 2. How else can you explain a grownup "Alexander" on DS9?) Didn't we already find out in "Infinite Regressions" that the first StarFleet vessel was assimilated 13 years ago? And didn't we find out tonight that the Borg are not NEARLY so cut and dried as we always thought. That the "clever fiendishness Of their plan" rivaled good old Chaotica Himself! "Did you really think we'd LET you go.." (Queen to 7), its been a SET UP all along guys. Kind of explains all those knocks about how easily it was for Voyager to survive all those encounters with the BORG these last 2 years! They wanted 7 on board, perhaps not initially but a good Queen knows opportunity when she sees it, and after letting Billions of Drones die with their encounter with Species 8472, watching Janeway beat them back "so easily" surely caught the Queen's attention. I think what ticked the Borg off so much about Picard was not the fact that he met them. Heck they'd met humans before (Hansens).. Rather it was that Picard (Actually Q) was involved with Bringing a Borg Cube all the way from the Delta Quadrant, and sending it back without their assent. THAT would certainly put them in ANY Queen's threat column, and require action. I don't mean to be the apologist for TPTB, but I do love a good challenge. Now answer me this, Did our Queen let them get away, AGAIN?

Rationalization #1?
Ted Mullaney -- 18 Feb 1999, 8:29 AM

Wait a minute. In Q who? didn't Q tell the senior staff of Enterprise D that they had no idea what awaited humanity "out there" in space? Didn't he say something along the lines of humanity only knowing of pathetic enemies like the Klingons and Romulans and that he was going to give them a taste of what really awaited them if humanity persisted in its foolish exploration of the galaxy? With a snap of his fingers, wasn't the Enterprise D thrown clear to the Delta quadrant? And wasn't the ship thrown back to the Alpha quadrant in the same fashion at the end of that episode? Maybe the rumours of the Borg were learned of by contact with Guinan or another member of her race. Perhaps with all these stardate/timeline inconsistencies were finding its reasonable to assume that Borg queen#2 let Voyager escape so they would lead her to planet Teletubbie! Yhea, that's it! I think its safe to assume that the whole concept of Stardate continuity can be thrown out the window at this time, along with the Prime directive, not messing with timelines,etc. Do any of you think Mr. Roddenberry might be spinning in his grave?

Rationalization #2
Ginny -- 21 Feb 1999, 1:12 PM

Do we actually know how long Seven was in the Borg maturation chamber? As I recall, One matured at an alarmingly accelerated pace in his 29th century maturation chamber. Maybe a 24th century maturation chamber would also produce an accelerated rate of maturation, although not to such an extreme degree. Which might explain a few additional things about Seven...and open up a new can of worms about the whole sexuality issue, as well.

Voyager Vs Teletubbies.
Ted Mullaney -- 18 Feb 1999, 12:02 AM

Yes! we should all write Paramount and insist that the next 2 hour Voyager telemovie be first encounter with the mysterious planet Teletubby. Maybe This ep could facilitate Kate Mulgrew's departure from Voyager by having Janeway murdered by being struck in the head by Tinky-Winkys purse. Hmmm, I think I`ll go write a script for submission to Paramount. Maybe the Teletubbies could be Neelix`s second cousins or something..................

You know Carol, I thought of the seeming "glitch" in time continuity as well as pertaining to sevens age, but I do have a theory.... Could Annika Hansens growth have been speeded up when she was assimilated by the Borg? We all saw how fast One matured in "Drone" Could it be that Seven really is still a child (well,teenager)? That would place the departure of the Hansens ship between the Enterprises first encounter and "best of both worlds"..........

Seven was, uh, six...
Jules -- 18 Feb 1999, 1:59 AM

When she was assimilated. She quite clearly stated in "The Raven" that she remembered having a birthday cake, and how many candles it had on it. "My cake had six candles on it and... and one more to grow on." I'm assuming that the seventh candle was for the year ahead.

So, either her parents were into confusing her by putting the wrong number of candles on her cake, or the Borg also throw birthday parties for their drones (after returning them to the ship they were assimilated from for the occasion). Or she really was six at the time she was taken.

As for the mismatch in dates, I'd say that that has been inevitable since the day that Seven herself was cast as a humanoid Borg. If she'd been Klingon or Ktarian, they could have had an adult actor play the part and say that they were really only ten years old and that the timescale all fitted - both Alexander and Naomi look way older than their years. But because Annika Hansen was human... she's got to look her age. They could have cast a child actor, like Scarlett Pomers, to play a much younger Borg drone, but that wouldn't have fitted in with either the role they had for Seven as a character or a publicity draw. And she wouldn't have been a terribly convincing choice for the Borg to have nominated as an interface between them and Voyager in "Scorpion" either.

So, once you commit to having an adult character who's human and has been assimilated by the Borg, and you need her to have been assimilated early enough in her childhood that the pre-assimilation memories aren't enough to allow her to become human again - like Riley Frasier and her collective - without a lot of help and teaching, then you're definitely talking in terms of Borg activity involving the assimilation of humans much earlier than TNG taught us. It almost inevitably has to be deep in Borg space, since otherwise the Borg would have known where to come looking for us long before "BOBW". If you redefine things that way, Q's little prank in "Q Who" becomes the point in which the Borg discover the origins of humans (presumably by all that assimilation of the Enterprise's computers) rather than their first encounter with them.

Still doesn't explain why nobody would have known about them in advance though. I can imagine why it would have been kept secret from the general populace, and possibly even Starfleet lower ranks, but you'd have thought that captains like Picard would have been informed of their existence, just like Janeway knew of the Omega Directive. I can only assume that it was even more secret than that. And they did seem to have geared up a major Borg resistance operation in just a year between "Q Who" and "BOBW". Maybe it was already in place before that?

Scanning the Dark Frontier
Eric -- 17 Feb 1999, 9:40 PM

Loved it!

Okay, it wasn't perfect but it was the next best thing, and hey, any episode with a nifty Borg Shipyard is always up on my list. Everyone seemed awake (well except Chakotay, but even the wooden one was showing life) and the sets were down right incredible!! But I did have a few nits :

The Nits :

The whole plant a drone on a Starship in hopes that she would learn about individuality so we can set a trap later on when they try to steal our technology, plan was hard to swallow! Come on Brannon!! These are BORG!! The most straight forward race in the Galaxy.

I can see Cube ships, Circle ships and even the new rectangle ships but WHAT was up with the Queens ship?

Why did the Queen try to blast through into normal space? She did NOT seem like the suicidal type!

No Hanson assimilation scene! If Seven was so pissed at her family, I would have liked to see their failure. I know we saw a little bit back in Raven but I would have liked to see it now.

The Good :

Those SETS! They were easily BETTER then most movie sets I've seen! GREAT job PTB! The Queen's chamber was easily worth the price of admission.

The Queen putting herself together! WOW!

Seven jacking in! OH Baby!!! I love that effect :-)

Janeway putting little Seven to bed at the end. I not always a fan of the Captain, but that was a cute little scene.

I have to say it : FI did a great job on the FX all around. Just the Shipyard alone makes this a classic.

Come on you HAD to have been cheering when Janeway announced the 15 year jump home! (Guess I was right after all huh Jules? 50-15=35)

Bottom line : Not perfect but close enough for a Voyager event. I loved it despite the few problems I had with it. I put it in the top five of this season.

Come on Eric, this is "Star Trek" here...
Deborah47 -- 18 Feb 1999, 5:05 AM

...and in Star Trek they are always trying to point out that nothing is cut and dried. It's not a devil in the dark, it's a mother protecting the entire progeny of her race. Even malevolent 8472, the species turned over to the Hirogen by Seven because she disagreed with Janeway's assessment, are discovered this year to be nicer than Cardassians. I like it when TPTB can throw me this kind of curve. Here's to hoping they continue this great trend. As for specifics on this episode, I'm sure I'll have lots to say when I see it Friday. (tonight I was only privileged to hear it--long story) I do agree with (?) Terry, it was nice to see Janeway at her best. I'll say again what "I" said before..."YOU WILL FIND OUR CAPTAIN A FORMIDABLE OPPONENT..." Seven in "Hunters D47

Dark Frontier was quite fascinating.
Terry -- 17 Feb 1999, 9:42 PM

This was an engrossing episode which explored many different ideas. Seven's humanity and her feelings about Voyager and her parents. Further fleshed out the Borg along the lines of First Contact. And showed the connections that Seven has established with Janeway and Naomi.

Seven was a Plant?

Really cool idea but needs more explanation. At what point in Scorpion did the Queen let Voyager capture Seven? And how could she be so sure that Janeway would keep Seven and try to humanize her? That stretches belief.

Borg Queen = Mommie?

Before we even saw the Queen, I had the idea that she would be Mrs. Hansen. But I couldn't tell if it was the same actress. Since the Queen later stated that she was another species (125?), I guess my idea was wrong.

But the credits only have two actresses and one actor. The actor must be Mr. Hansen. One actress must be young Annika. That leaves only Susanna Thompson. Did she play both the Queen and Mrs. Hansen?

I did recognize her drone-daddy early on--I thought that he was the drone who was leaning over Seven when she finished regenerating. I wonder why she didn't recognize him.

Final Scene

I didn't totally understand how the final face-off scene between Janeway and the Queen worked. Was the Queen calling her bluff or not? Didn't Janeway order Paris to fire? If that failed because of the chamber's shielding, why didn't the drones grab Janeway? Or Seven? This part didn't make much sense.

Borg

This part of the story was cool but something was lacking. I didn't quite get the feeling of menace from walking down the Borg corridors. I guess I've seen too many such scenes in past episodes.

The look of the different Borg ships and Borg central complex was cool.

You probably should ignore past Borg episodes to fully enjoy the ep. The story about her parents pursuing the rumors about the Borg didn't quite fit past history.

Parents

How did they know about the Borg 20 years ago? Picard had never heard of them before Q showed them. I guess that Guinan's people could have passed word. But she surely would have described them as genocidal monsters. How does Dr. Hansen's theory of peaceful Borg arise from that?

Her father was extremely arrogant. He risked whole family on theories about Borg with almost no evidence. I was glad to see that both Seven and the Doctor agreed.

I liked the way that they explained how the Raven got to the DQ (by sneaking along in a Borg transwarp conduit. But how did they plan to get home? Her father promised Annika that they would return home soon.

I enjoyed seeing her parents and their study of the Borg. Too bad we didn't see the actual assimilation scene.

Other Likes

Great holosimulation of the attack. I didn't catch on that it was fake until it was over.

I liked Naomi and how she was used here. Nice scene with Naomi and Janeway in her ready room. Despite my fears, Naomi has been used well recently. Her connection with Seven and her correspondence to the young Annika was excellent.

Seven has been slowing becoming more emotional over the last few episodes. This is what I've been waiting for. She is becoming a much more believable and interesting character. And more likeable. I can see why TPTB are using Naomi so much. She really helps the Seven character.

Dislikes

B'Elanna's quote from the promo was a red herring! Did B'Elanna ever say, "She was never one of us."? It was in the promo but I didn't hear it in the ep. Was it an old clip from The Raven or something? Shame on UPN.

Nits

There were many. Most aren't worth mentioning.

Everyone claims that Seven has been away from the Collective for OVER two years. WRONG! Scorpion was less than two years ago.

Notes

Seven has a new handsome dark red or purple uni. Much better than that ugly brown.

A possible future episode or a lost cause?
Ohio Babe -- 18 Feb 1999, 8:37 PM

I was totally blown away to realize that 7's parents were assimilated. I figured they had been murdered by the Borg when they nabbed 7 years ago. But something I was thinking about later is this: wouldn't 7 have known her parents were assimilated along with her since the Borg are all connected by one mind? She seemed stunned when she recognized her "papa". Also, I'm wondering if in a future episode if 7 may attempt a rescue of her parents. She was successfully transformed back to a human being, why couldn't they be, too? Or is the risk to retrieve them too great? I guess she barely got away from the Borg this time...why risk another capture?

You made a very good point, Terry, when you wondered how the Hansens knew about the Borg in the first place since Picard and his crew didn't even know about them until Q came along. I didn't even think about that until now. I also thought their study of the Borg was quite fascinating....not a job I would want, however. It was very foolish for them to put their child in such close proximity to the Borg.

Look out, it's action Kate scourge of the Borg to the rescue.
Mike -- 17 Feb 1999, 9:44 PM

Yes, it was a Seven episode and yes we hardly saw any of the other regulars during a two hour movie, but you know what? I loved it anyway cause Captain Janeway kicked some butt and got to be the hero she should always be. Like a lioness going to the rescue of one of her cubs, she came roaring to Seven's rescue. And what a rescue, she saved Seven from her worst nightmare. Best of all, in the last scene Janeway gave Seven an order **and Seven obeyed. I just hope that they build on what happened in this episode and don't go back to square one next week. Seven owes everything to Captain Janeway.

This movie at first wasn't as good as I had hoped, but maybe I just expected too much. There were some parts where I was actually getting bored, mostly during the dragged-out dialogs between Seven and the Borg Queen. But, once it got going into high gear I was rooting like a kid. I loved when Janeway walked into the Borg chamber and put the queen in her place! You could see Seven's gratitude towards Janeway in the last scene before she regenerated. Seven's eyes said "Thank you for saving me Captain" even if Janeway didn't need or want to hear it. This is what I like to see, now I just hope Seven doesn't forget how Janeway marched into hell to save her. And, Voyager too owes Seven for her brave sacrifice to save all of them from assimilation.

Two scenes I've got to mention. One was when Janeway said Commander Chakotay is in charge and then practically gave him a neck message, geesh Kate, why don't you just grab his....oh, never mind.

I'll keep this short and sweet and spend some time instead responding to other people's comments.

I have no complaints cause action Kate was back in top form. Yippie!!! Captain Janeway, the Borg Slayer, to the rescue.

Mike (oh yeah, spectacular F/X too)

PS: Finally an explanation for the parts pile in 'Scorpion'?
Mike -- 17 Feb 1999, 10:05 PM

...I always wondered about that unexplained pile of Borg body parts in 'Scorpion', was this finally an explanation in 'Dark Frontier'? In 'DF' Seven watched as the body of a dead drone was dismembered to recover parts. Could this be an explanation for the large pile of dismembered Borg parts on the cube in 'Scorpion'? I believe it is. Maybe the Borg killed by the 8472 in 'Scorpion' were dismembered to recycle parts.

But I thought it was the 8472's who made the piles?
Eric -- 17 Feb 1999, 10:17 PM

At least that was the feeling I got.

How about this :

When the Drones died they left those parts behind, and when the 8472 boarding party killed all the drones they created ritual piles of there enemies?

I think that is the best explanation we are going to get anyway :-)

BTW : Mike, I think Seven and Kate are even! Janeway saved Seven AND Seven sacrificed herself for the ship. Seven has thrown her lot in with Voyager. A VERY good story and one I have to watch again.

Yeah, I would say they're even too, Eric...
Mike -- 17 Feb 1999, 10:25 PM

...I did give Seven credit for saving them all from assimilation in my review. And, although I'm sick of Seven episodes, this was my favorite Seven episode yet.

About the pile, at first I thought it was done by the 8472 also, but after learning more about them in following episodes I no longer think so. After what I saw tonight combined with the insights we've gotten into the 8472 since Scorpion (like Chuck kissing one) I believe now that it was the Borg who piled the parts. I guess we'll never know for sure, but that's my theory.

Mike (amazing isn't it, the things I try to figure out :^)

The line that should have been in 'Dark Frontier' :^)...
Mike -- 18 Feb 1999, 8:39 AM

Picture this scene as Elaine and I were watching 'Dark Frontier' together last night. The evil Borg queen is describing to Seven her latest plan to conquer humanity and the frailties of the human race as a holo-graphic image of a practically naked young beach boy rotates nearby. The Borg queen says:"They have limited regenerative powers, few redundant systems, below average cranial capacity...". Just as the holo-beef-cake image's posterior comes into view my wife responds "Yeah...nice butts, though". This just floored me with laughter. Imagine if Seven had really responded with that!!!

Women :^). [I saw my life studying that *holostud* too, Mike.]

Ted Mullaney -- 17 Feb 1999, 9:54 PM

Well folks, I must say I'm pretty impressed. I suppose if I really wanted to, I could pick this episode apart and find fault with it, but I wont.That of course, I will leave in the hands of some of my distinguished colleagues on the board. I find myself looking closer at many of the actors faces during the shows and imagining what kind of emotions their characters are feeling in a given scene. I thought Tom looked really nervous when the Delta flyer was flying into the mass of Borg ships, and I will chalk that up to talent on the part of Robert Duncan McNeill. I do have a lot of questions which have been raised by this episode, which I hope can be answered by looking around the Nebula. Is Voyager now entering the far end of the Beta quadrant? Will Seven now insist on being addressed as Annika? Is Naomi Wildman truly the reincarnation of Wesley Crusher? (just kidding,although I seem to be one of the minority who really liked the Wesley character,so that wouldn't be so bad) I challenge anyone out there to prove to me that there is a better hour (or two) of television than we get from the different Star Trek series. I think not.

That's a safe bet Ted!
Eric -- 17 Feb 1999, 10:21 PM

I have LONG considered Voyager and Deep Space Nine to be two of the best DRAMAS on TV. I could easily stand up a favorite episode of Trek to the best another network has to offer like ER and NYPD Blue. It is only because it is Science Fiction (OH! The HORROR!) that they are discriminated against at the Emmys.

I am amazed, I enjoyed it....
Leonie -- 17 Feb 1999, 10:20 PM

I can't wait to see it next week. Who would have thought it, out little Captain's pet has grown up and become quite the adult. I must admit, I find little that a prospective mate would find attractive in Ensign Kim, but I just can't wait to hear him deliver that line...

"I've been on this ship for 5 years and I've never disobeyed your orders until now!!!!

YAHOOOO

Harry got a back bone,
Harry has a spine,
If he continues, he'll be more a man than Cha-ak

WHO HOOO

I can't wait, I can't wait, I can't wait......

It's been sooo long since I've seen a Season V Voyager episode,

Wait.....

Oh I'm sorry, I'm supposed to post my thoughts about Dark Frontier here!!!

Don't worry, it wouldn't take long....

Irrelevant.

I didn't care either which way and frankly, I found myself bored and confused by it all.

Since I don't care and I'm exhausted, I'm going to bed now. If I find time, I'll post tomorrow, if not, I'll post something or maybe later. Or maybe I'll just not bother, why not? TPTB can't even seem bothered to get something correct which they wrote two years ago when it comes to Seven's childhood and assimilation, to say nothing to what they've done to the ST continuity line with that Hack of TNG. They seem not to be bothered by making the only female captain in Trek's history nothing more than a common thief and her crew seem to have no problem with that. They don't want to bother about it in Dark Frontier, why should I?

I just wanted to share my excitement over next week's episode.

Harry Kim!!!

Yeah!!!

Well compared to these poorly written ASATT scripts, a script with someone else, even if it's badly written will be a welcomed relief.

Sweet Seventeen
Ted Mullaney -- 17 Feb 1999, 10:31:04 PM

OK, I already posted this but don't know where I sent it to, so I`ll post it again for everyone to see. I submit that the Hansens exploratory mission took place in the year between the Enterprises first encounter with the Borg and Best of both worlds. Seeing how quickly One matured during "Drone" I have come to believe that Seven is actually only about 17 years old! I think its a reasonable leap of faith to assume that Annika Hansens growth was artificially speeded up after assimilation. That would solve the question of timeline continuity in "Dark Frontier" (I think)

RE: Sweet Seventeen... you beat me to it.
AnnM. -- 17 Feb 1999, 10:37 PM

I was thinking that Borg drones may mature faster. I forgot about "Drone."

Has Seven's age ever been mentioned on Voyager? I'm not one to keep too many trivia facts running around too too long.

That's a good explanation.
D'Alaire -- 17 Feb 1999, 11:05 PM

And if that's what TPTB really mean by their timeline, I wish they'd explain it!

However, that doesn't match up with previous accounts of the Hansens' travel log from past Voy eps, IIRC. --Does anyone remember that besides me? I thought it was said (in one of the early S4 eps) that it'd been a lot longer than that, placing Seven's age at approximately 26. It just slipped right out of my mind where that reference was.

Hmmm...I wonder if TPTB do things like this just to keep Nitpicker's central going strong. ; )

Nice theory unfortunately Magnus Hansen's own log contradicts it.
Terry -- 18 Feb 1999, 1:15 AM

I don't remember exactly but the Stardates on his log entries started out with 32XXX. Which translated into nearly 8 years before TNG's first season. (Which started at 41000.) And 20 years before this season's dates of 52XXX.

Also, I believe that it was said in Scorpion II that she had been assimilated 20 years before. The Stardates indicate that maybe 19 is more accurate.

I got the feeling that they were contradicting Q Who in which it was stated that the Borg were unknown to the Federation. The only way out is the theory suggested above about the Borg being classified secret.

The Raven..
Deborah47 -- 18 Feb 1999, 3:50 AM

..the episode with Tuvok and Seven, indicated that the ship had crashed 18 years ago. That would agree with the Hansens logs and argue against a Borg maturation chamber or time warp anomaly. I standby my earlier theory in "rationalization #1. D47

Thanks for the b-day wishes, now on to...
ande -- 18 Feb 1999, 1:15 AM

Wow, I really liked Dark Frontier. I thought the F/X were great. The acting was wonderful and although I didn't find the Borg Queen as wonderfully creepy as Alice Krieg's Borg Queen, I did think she did a good job. I found that the lighting added to the over all atmosphere of the episode.
Although this was a 7 episode, I felt the presence of the other crew members especially Janeway, Chuck, the doc, Tuvok and Tom. Neelix and Naomi were also there, leaving only Harry and B'Elanna with smallish parts (like I care Harry wasn't in it much. We'll talk about Lust in Space later).
The story flowed well. The ending was a bit of YAATE, but not so much that it irritated me. I was almost expecting the Borg Queen to come flying through the conduit, so when only pieces came through, I was cheering.

Ok, a few nits: I thought about what Ted posted, that 7 matured at a quicker rate due to a Borg maturation chamber, but the time line still confused me. I felt that this was a mistake by TPTB and not a plot issue. I just didn't buy that the Hanson's would be out studying the Borg and that the Borg would allow it. So what if they weren't a threat, the Hanson's should have been some of the first humans they would have encountered. The Borg live to assimilate new species. I didn't buy that the Hanson's could come up with tech to outwit the Borg so quickly when the best of the Federation couldn't do it in several years. Like they are smarter than Geordi or Data. Nuh,uh.

Just one other comment about this episode. Was it just me or did everyone's hair look more red? Janeway's hair has never been that red, Tom's hair looked (good) but dark strawberry blond, 7's hair looked slightly darker blondie/red as well. Even B'Elanna's hair had a reddish tint. Was it the lighting?

Now, on to Lust in Space. I can't believe that after what had to be the utter failure of Favorite Son and it's advertising, not to mention that one where 7 got 'violated' that TPTB would do it AGAIN! They just don't learn. What do we have to do? Review Boy should do a review of their ad campaign and send it off to TPTB. Maybe they would take that hint. Tracy is famous now, maybe she could convince them to stop with this advertising and these stupid Lust in Space episodes (that seem to frequently have Harry as the main focus) Ok, maybe I should see the episode before I trash it, but the teaser so alienated me, that I might skip it all together. How sad that TPTB would choose to air such an episode after one of their best Voyager episodes of the year.

ande (who's another year older and waitin' for the wiser part to kick in)

(Borg) Queen for a day.
Ohio Babe -- 18 Feb 1999, 6:08 AM

In watching last night's show, I couldn't help but compare the two Borg Queens, Alice Krige from "First Contact" and now Susanna Thompson. Putting aside their very similar faces, they each played the roles differently, to me. I have to admit I think I liked Krige's rendition a little better. I thought she played the role a bit more creepier, a lot more sensual and expressive...the way she would pucker her lips when she talked, etc. More human, perhaps. Susanna did a good job (better than I could do, that's for sure), but her performance was too much like an automaton (which I guess she was, when you get down to it!) She didn't put as much expression into her lines and they bordered on monotone at times. She seemed to move in slow motion. She did insert a certain degree of low-key sensuality into her personality because there was a few times I thought she was going to plant to big one on 7 of 9!! (stroking her face,etc. I thought "Here it comes!)

Just one more thought....the f/x was awesome!! That Borg "City" was unreal. Someone got some beaucoup overtime to come up with that idea!

Actually, I think the promos...
D'Alaire -- 18 Feb 1999, 7:59 AM

...are more the domain of UPN loser promo sludges, who should be shot sometimes, I agree. They do tend to pick and choose their clips very carefully, don't they? And I really sometime would like to meet the person who writes this stuff. Agh!

In all fairness, they've had some good ones, but from what I hear of this promo...(shaking head) Let's just say I'm already looking for the lyrics to "I'm too Sexy." ; )

No, no, I really do hope the promo does the ep no justice. It's often the case, and I hope it is again. I do prefer at least good eps, after all--and IIRC, the best thing about FS was B'Elanna snickering deliriously at Kim--because I was too, later on.

(snicker) Poor Harry.

That bothered me to, ande...
Mike -- 18 Feb 1999, 9:19 AM

ande said:
"I didn't buy that the Hanson's could come up with tech to outwit the Borg so quickly when the best of the Federation couldn't do it in several years. Like they are smarter than Geordi or Data. Nuh,uh."

I felt the same way, ande, and I also thought it was pretty uncaring of them to risk the safety of their only daughter that way. After all their experiment to camouflage themselves from the Borg was untested. They also didn't seem to care much when they ended up in the DQ. The Hanson's seemed very obsessed to me since once they got to the DQ they should have realized it would be next to impossible to get the info they collected back to the Federation. BTW, couldn't that plan the evil queen described to Seven (to assimilate humanity slowly) still be used by the Borg since Voyager has no way to warn the Federation?

I have to say that I am looking forward to the Harry Kim episode next week. This season Harry has been ok in my book.

Sorry I missed wishing you a Happy Birthday. Let me wish it to you now :^).

DARK FRONTIER was an epic episode struggling with its epic story.
Jason -- 18 Feb 1999, 8:12 AM

An interesting episode that will probably take me a few times to watch it to assess it's full strength.

SURPRISES

There were some very appealing moments to this episode and Susanna Thompson has her own charms as the Borg Queen. She managed to bring her own seductive spin on it. Considering we saw a lot more of the Queen this time around she held up quite well as a character. Thompson is a keeper.

Naomi was used well, um, better that Chakotay, Torres, Neelix, Kim... Somebody, please-- give these characters some screentime!

Queenie's assertion that her race was #125 was more intriguing that it was de-mystifying if only for the fact that it wasn't explained. I'm not sure if I want it to be.

There were some genuine movie quality moments, in both production, music, etc. The assimilation sequence of that planet was very well done. I was worried that Terry Windell, who directed part of this episode would be a bad choice due to the fact that he's only directed on Voyager episode before-- "Gravity"-- but he handled this episode well.

This was also an episode that had themes of it's own that it tried to explore in a grand scope which we haven't seen from Trek in a long time. I really do want to see more like this.

DISAPPOINTMENTS

Braga claimed that like every other two parter, the success of this one relied on a strong Janeway storyline. Bull! This was the weakest Janeway story of all the recent two parters they've done. This was an All Seven, All the Time Show. Janeway was certainly prominent, but giving her more influence over Seven would have helped work her in to the actual drama of the plot more, especially when it came to facing down the Borg Queen.

Boy, Carol what was with all the deception about this episode? First no FC Betsy and then no Torres line telling Janeway Seven of Nine "never was one of us." Or did I just miss it? My station came back late in to the show from commercials once or twice, so it's possible. If it wasn't in there, maybe'll it'll work it's way in to the two-part edited version. There were definitely hints of it because Janeway said her line about retrieving Seven directly to B'Elanna.

Although I've been positive of the Borg Queen, I think they should have played up her maternal aspect towards Seven of Nine instead of depicting her immediately as a task master. This Queen wanted Seven for pragmatic purposes. Aside from some of her lines "Never forget who you are" and others, she wasn't really comforting to Seven... she wasn't really luring her back to the Collective by telling Seven that they were her true family.

The most serious problem with this episode was the anti-climax ending. It had problems on quite a few different levels:

--We should have seen more than just a minute of the Queen Mum and Janeway when they come face to face. They didn't really have all that much interaction with each other, and I for one think that it would have been very interesting if they had.

Seven should have been more torn at this point. As tense as the scene was, we knew Seven had made her decision to come back to Voyager and so the Borg Queen looked like a villain whose lure over the main character was a hollow one.

In fact, it would have been nice if throughout the episode we had seen Seven fall back under the Borg's spell.

The other thing that was wrong with the ending was the horrible chase scene. It's fairly unbelievable that the Borg would have given up so easily, initially by sending only one ship to pursue Seven of Nine, and then would blow up in the conduit. (I guess that means that Papa Hansen died in this episode, as did Weyoun #2-- er, make that: Borg Queen #2.)

More DARK FRONTIER and Points of Interest.
Jason -- 18 Feb 1999, 8:37 AM

And again, Voyager plays fast and loose with numbers in referring to time. Seven's time aboard... for instance, and the very quick return trip to Voyager by the Delta Flyer. The trip there was assumed to be much longer than a few minutes.

POINTS OF INTEREST

Kudos to Annika's mom! (She wasn't, as Terry speculated, Susanna Thompson and the Borg Queen) She was quite an Uma Thurmanesque hottie in her own right. Seven, move over.

The male human model: While underwear may be a necessity for UPN censors; but I had no idea that the Borg were such prudes. It's just anatomy, after all. I didn't think they were so shy.

It is interesting who went on the Delta Flyer to get Seven: Momma Kate, Papa Doc, Uncle Tuvok and Bro Tom. Just about everyone who is close to Seven with the exception of Naomi.

I was not impressed with those playing Magnus Hansen or the child version of Annika. Certainly the girl we saw in "Scorpion" and "raven" was more of a match, but after a year and a half, no doubt she's grown out of the role of four year old.

I wonder if we are going to hear more of the Borg's new plan to conquer Earth? This part of the plot should have been better developed.

Another thing we should have heard more of was the angle of Seven's infiltration of Voyager-- her "innate plan" (this has been happening to a lot of TV characters lately)...

It would be interesting to see if the Borg were actually watching out for Voyager over the two years Seven has been aboard. Maybe it wasn't a coincidence Harry found out about the temporal transciever in 'Timeless" after all...

IN SUMMARY

In times, an epic episode with the story to match, at times dull, at times disappointing, in short, everything found it's way in to this episode. If you had your hopes up high, it may be a disappointment, though I think there's enough on Borg life in there to make this a fairly exciting episode. I liked it a lot, but I think I have to watch it another two or three times to fully assess it.

Missing Lines
Carol -- 18 Feb 1999, 9:07 AM

Jason, your not blaming me for Torres' missing line are you? :-) The FC Betsy thing *was* a honest mistake, really. :-)

B'Elanna's line wasn't in the episode, but it *was* in the preview (the long, sixty second preview), but the scene was obviously cut out of the final version.

The only thing I can do is make this wild guess: Joe Menoskey once said that there are scenes that get cut so as to make room for ads or anything else. Their was infamous line in Timeless during Janeway and Chakotay's dinner scene where Janeway tells him he can tell the crew about her plan -- *after* dessert. But the line was cut out to make up more time for the Insurrection Behind-The-Scenes look during a commercial brake.

Dark Frontier had a *lot* of commercials -- sometimes the brakes were twice as as long as a normal one (at least it seemed to me). So the editors probably cut a few minutes here and there to get more ad space in.

I don't know. Its just a theory.

Woops! I've got to go to work now. I'll be back later. :-)

Carol the TIMELESS missing scene appeared in the Canadian version
Jason -- 18 Feb 1999, 12:51 PM

The scene you referred to aired in the version of the episode we got up here. I guess it's because we didn't get the INSURRECTION promo...

Now I know what Irrelevance is.....
Leonie -- 18 Feb 1999, 8:14 AM

Ok, much more rested now, but still not too happy with last night!!!

Oh Captain my Captain.

Let me start with my dislikes or should I call them pet peeves.

Quite frankly I think that Captain Janeway is taking this 'we must get home' at all cost thing way too far. I thought that her whole plan was unethical and completely wrong. In the past, she has broken the prime directive, invaded alien cultures that would rather be left alone, fought with species that she shouldn't have and even sneaked across borders that were closed to her. She did if for two reasons, one because there was absolutely no other way around it and two for the sake of her crew, in self defense.

But she has never stooped so low as to steal to get her way and that's exactly what she was doing, stealing. The Borg in the beginning had no way attacked her. I know that the flimsy excuse that she had run into the Borg lots of times and always had correct her course and add more time to the journey to avoid them, but they were moving away from Borg territory, by all rights they should be running into the Borg less and less. They were not in the heart of it. If all the lame ideas I've seen Janeway had this was one of the most unethical and I am surprised that no one batted an eyelash at it.

Let me rant at Chakotay. So much for the angry warrior, you little wuss!! This decision of Janeway was even more clear cut in the wrong than the one in Scorpion and not even a peep from you!!!!

I can't believe that they let the Janeway Character stoop so low and without one but from anyone on the senior staff.

We are the Confused

I don't think that I've ever been so disappointed with a Borg plot in all of my time watching Star Trek.

We know that the Borg are a collective. They think as one, they move as one. The drones are appendages, they function only as the means that execute a collective will. They are instinctive, they act for the sole purpose of achieving perfection. All acts of assimilation are done towards the goal of bring the universe into one collective order, one collective consciousness. Individuality is not part of their comprehension. Can someone tell me where the idea of a queen comes from? "I!?! am the Borg" I could never swallow that one in First contact.

I basically made the rationalization that someone had to have started the assimilation process and it may have been the queen, so in that way it makes sense to have a first among equals. But the queen is dead!!, how did the next queen come about? General Elections!?! How did she campaign for that position and why did they elect her as the queen.

Another thing that doesn't make sense. Why are the Borg so flexible and inefficient about the decision to assimilate small numbers of people from a certain race. The Borg in TNG, and "The Gift" ignored small groups of people of a race that were assimilated, but in "Hope and Fear" and in "Dark Frontier" now they figured that they must assimilate everyone, if that is the case, why haven't they assimilated Voyager yet. The Queen said that she allowed them to go on their merry way because they pose no threat to them.

Make up your mind are small groups of people who escape assimilation when their cultures were are to be ignored or not?

And as for the treatment of Seven!!

Now let me see if I understand this. You let Seven become human again because you want to blend the two natures to gain a deeper understanding of how to assimilate humanity. That actually is a good plan. You get her back, you extract her thoughts and her memories and you still leave her individuality intact? Why? she should have been a drone as soon as that was done. By my understanding, the idea of using bio-warfare came from understanding Seven's memories of compassion? Huh!!!, I don't get it. What do the two have to do with each other? You're planning to kill them slowly so they don't realize what's happening to them. What does this have to do with compassion for other people?

And the biggest plot hole and the mostly thinly veiled "Deux ex machina" patch that I have ever seen are the parts that had to do with the Raven itself....

Deus Ex Ravena

Just from reading the titles of the posts here I can see that a lot of people were concerned about the "chicken and the egg theory" of the discovery of the Borg and just how old Annika Henson really is. Picard et all were supposed to be the first in TNG and the discovery of races was mutual. IIRC, "Q Who" was the first time that the Borg found out about Humanity. According to the age of assimilation and given the latter piece of fact, Annika should be about seventeen years old!!!

Then there are the records that were downloaded from the Raven. When did Voyager find the time to download that amount of data? Weren't they being pursued by the 'Rubic Cube heads' at that time and wasn't the Raven destroyed when they were fired upon by the BAOTW?

If the father was assimilated by the Borg and he's still a drone there, shouldn't his knowledge be their knowledge? The Borg should have known what Voyager was doing and where they were. They were after all using his shielding design for their ship and their persons. I should think that as the Borg, that knowledge should be used at all times, because it poses a threat to the Collective.

And Annika wasn't terrified when she was assimilated!?! The entire episode of the Raven was based on that!!!.

That's what I mean about their lax attitudes in the continuity department. I can forgive TNG, that was a while ago, but the Raven was last year. What!?!, it takes soooo long to go into a room and re-watch a video tape!!. You give me the impression that you don't really give a damn about the episodes and the plot. You figure that once it has Seven, the Borg Queen and the Borg then everyone would just love it. What galls me is that you give this so much hype and not only don't even bother to get something new and original you don't even bother cover the large holes in your plot. This entire script screams either laziness or too rushed to be done right, and for trying to engage my imagination for two hours, you just should have tried harder.

All Seven, All the Time

If I have to be subjected to Seven episodes in the sweeps period, at leas try and make her scripts good ones. That's what I meant by my comment. In all fairness to Jeri Ryan, she did very well this week but even Kate couldn't pull this one off. Seven's expressions, her emotions and her interaction with others especially Naomi were well done and they were a lot better than last week's episode.

But I graded this one hard, and that's because I feel that the writers are using her character, her demographic YAM appeal and the Borg in general as one big crutch.

What I would have liked to have seen in this episode was the Borg attack Voyager, slap Janeway in her cocky face and take Seven away. Seven remaining an individual ( I liked the idea, I hated the reasoning) would have had an opportunity to use both her humanity and her Borg nature to beat the collective (The best of both Worlds) and then returned to Voyager. I think that you would agree that it would have given Seven even more screen time than Dark Frontier did (No pesky Mulgrew to get within the viewing range of the YAMS who are closely viewing and scrutinizing Seven for the plot and Jeri Ryan's acting abilities) and it would have at least preserved the integrity of the Borg as a race developed in TNG.

The point of having Seven episodes during sweeps period was that she brought in the Addy $ for that period of time, she brought in the YAM audience and she was interesting enough to keep the regulars watching. Well I guess two out of three ain't bad.

If they were good Seven episodes, I wouldn't mind as much. But they are just bad. And there are a lot of characters aiming for more screen time, so I'm glad for Harry. I'm tired of bad ASATT and I'm looking forward to his show, even if it is a bomb. At least it would be a change of pace.

Sometimes it's the little things.

(1) J/C:

Even though I thought that Chak was a wuss in this, I loved the fact that we could see how well he knew her. I loved her whole fidgeting with her comm badge and he noticing it. I used to have male friends who knew me that well. The were worth more then their weight in gold.

(2) Seven/Naomi/Janeway:

It was touching to see Naomi have a plan to rescue Seven and her insistence that the captain see it. In the same way that you could tell that McNeill is a dad, you can tell that Mulgrew is a mom. I was glad that the plan was exactly that childish, but it served a wonderful purpose and a counter to B'Elanna's claim that Seven was not one of them. She was and a little child, and she was the one who reminded Janeway of that. I loved it

(3) Neelix:

He gave Seven something interesting to think about as the only other orphan on the ship. It was nice to see the continuity in his struggles given a meaningful one line in this episode. I could feel how much he missed his family and how much they meant to him.

(4) J/P

Nice to know that even though he was demoted to Ensign (did anyone check his pips to see if he still was this week) he still respects and is loyal to his Captain. His gulp at her command to destroy the chamber was duly noted.

(5) Welcome back.

The Doc's welcome of Seven back was also duly noted.

OK
I'm done

I promise next time I won't hold back as much as I did this week and say what I really feel, OK D'Alaire?

It's just so hard for me, being so shy and all.

Actually, Leonie, I think "theft" is the wrong word.
MEG -- 18 Feb 1999, 9:39 AM

In the military/technological environment, it is not called "theft." If you are the side liberating the information or equipment, it is called "intelligence gathering." If you are the side whose stuff just grew legs and walked, it is called "espionage." ;-)

About the Queen: I may be completely off base here, but I see her as being the manifestation and focal point of the Collective's consciousness, rather than a specific individual. She seems to exist outside any specific body -- hence the scenes in both "First Contact" and "Dark Frontier" where we see her being "assembled"-- and only takes on a physical form when she needs to interact with those outside the Collective. When she "dies" in that physical form, the consciousness still exists, and it can simply be transferred into another body made from more spare parts when the need arises. And as not just the shared but the focal point of Borg consciousness, she IS the Borg; hence the statement "I am. . ." Does that make any sense?

MEG (in need of another cup of coffee)

Leonie -- 18 Feb 1999, 6:04 PM

Good explanation, however it does clash with one thing.

When Picard was Locutus, he always began with "WE are the Borg" I would expect the Queen to say the same thing if it is as you suggest.

More Borg Queen theories
MEG -- 18 Feb 1999, 8:52 PM

I'm beginning to feel like Mr. and Mrs. Hanson, going all scientific and proposing theories on the social structure of the Borg.

Anyway, Leonie, I kind of had the impression that Picard/Locutus, and Seven in "Scorpion", were still drones, although highly specialized in function. Seven even refers to herself that way at first: "You will return this drone to the Collective!" But the Queen doesn't seem to be a drone: she's more like the ego and superego of the Collective mind. If it didn't sound like a contradiction in terms (and really weird into the bargain), I'd call her an individual -- the Collective individual, with a distinctive self-awareness. The drones, even the ones who speak for the Borg, aren't "The Borg". Only she IS the Borg.

No, as a matter of fact, I don't know what I'm talking about. Why do you ask? ;-)

Well, this is exciting. My first post from my new home computer! Cool!

Deborah47 -- 19 Feb 1999, 12:43 AM

But Locutus was not the Queen....he was a spokesman for the collective. Seven was the same way in Scorpion II and the Gift. WE are Borg! she kept repeating it as if it was her mantra. Which I guess it was. She's not the Queen, Locutus was not the crown prince. In fact neither KNEW who the QUEEN even WAS! They both realized the Queen's consciousness was always a part of their Borg existence only after she made one to one contact with them. "I am Borg." The concept still sends shivers up my spine (the good kind.).

What do you mean the Borg in no way attacked her?
Carol -- 18 Feb 1999, 9:19 AM

Leonie, the episode started off with the Borg attacking Voyager during the teaser! In fact, we saw the whole attack from the Borg's POV. They initiated it and they provoked it. The Borg aren't some xenophobic species that want to be left alone, but manevolet destroyers who would destroy and assimilate the whole crew, disrupting there livelihoods if they ever got the chance.

Frankly, I saw nothing wrong or immoral with Janeway and the Crew deciding to steal the transwarp conduit. This wasn't some peacetime thing between Voyager and the Borg, but more of a wartime one, where all bets are off. The opportunity provided itself with the broken down sphere and I'm actually a little surprised that no one thought of it before now. (And its not like could ask them for a transwarp coil. We saw how much the Borg can't be trusted in Scorpion).

Thanks, Carol, I was all set to respond ...
Mike -- 18 Feb 1999, 10:03 AM

...but I see you already beat me to it. I saw nothing wrong with Janeway's actions in 'Dark Frontier' as far as taking a transwarp coil from the Borg, especially after they attacked her. Besides, haven't the Borg stolen all their technology from other species anyway. The Borg are far from innocent victims. Also, the Borg were supposedly already planning to use Seven, so Janeway was eventually going to be in conflict with them anyway. Didn't they say they had plans for Seven even before Janeway's scheme to get the transwarp coil.

Well, maybe we might just coax you...
D'Alaire -- 18 Feb 1999, 10:11 AM

...out of that timid little shell of yours, yet, Leonie. I'm sure you have an opinion in there somewhere. (grin)

No, seriously, I really enjoyed what you had to say, as I always do. Though I must have enjoyed DF much more than you did (not my favorite, not nearly the worst), I do agree about the blatant consistency problems and your anxiousness to have sweeps done with. I'd like to see my favorites back in the forefront again, too.

It wasn't that I didn't like this episode.....
PegN -- 18 Feb 1999, 11:36 AM

I just thought it was an okay episode.

I thought Annika's parents were incredibly stupid and taking their child along was a crime. But then, we wouldn't have Seven today. I thought Janeway was incredibly arrogant in the Conference Room planning her little heist and in dealing with the Borg in general. "I feel lucky today." Geez. I wish the writers wouldn't write her that way. Borg don't inspire arrogance, they inspire fear or dread. I was embarrassed for her. What was so unique about the 350K+ population that they assimilated in Part II. They looked pretty insignificant to me. Who says young Annika wasn't terrified about being assimilated? If I recall "Raven" correctly where she hid under a console, she did a pretty good impression of terror. Now onto the special effects: I guess they were okay. Frankly I was more impressed with the FX in Timeless (Voyager under a glacier, Voyager crashing, the frozen bodies on the bridge). I guess it was a more compelling story to me.

I was on the edge of my seat a couple of times when they ran out of time in the holodeck simulation and in the real situation. And I did like the fact that Action/Mama Kate saved her cub.

For a two hour movie, the rest of the cast didn't have very much to do, except say, "Yes, Ma'm."

Next week: Harry goes into Far Pon (human condition that must come about every 5 years) and gets him sum.

Where were you when the lights went out?
Ruth -- 18 Feb 1999, 4:37 PM

That has a dual meaning -- a play on the word "dark," and the fact that after each of my last posts, I've been unable to get the board to load again. I hope I don't crash it this time. :-(

I wanted to mention two scenes in DARK FRONTIER. First, in the scene with the Doc, it was good that Seven was the one who recognized that her parents shouldn't have taken her with them to study the Borg. I think last year, and even perhaps this year, the cliched way to do the scene would have been to have Doc point out her parent's transgressions and for Seven to deny the validity of the criticism. As someone said, it is good that the character is starting to some emotions.

Second, did anyone else cringe when Naomi walked in with the "solution" for finding Seven? All I could do was superimpose Wesley's face on her body. ;-) It shows that we might forgive TPTB for all those Wesley saves the ship episodes, but we don't forget.... I actually thought it was a well done scene, and she and Janeway worked well together.

Mr. Mac. -- 18 Feb 1999, 5:13 PM

This is the kind of ep that I like to see. Janeway in charge.

Like: Opening sequence with Borg flying backwards upon explosion. Simple stunt, nice effect.

Dislike: Janeway playing with her comm badge? When did she suddenly develop that habit?

Like: Opening with all bridge officers (and doc) salvaging Borg pieces. It's nice to see everyone work together.

Like: B'Elanna's line, "Captain, she was *never* one of us" was cut. Did you notice later when Janeway gave her bridge speech that she looked in B'Elanna's direction and said, "She's one of us and I'm not about to let her go." I'm willing to bet that the cut line was right before that.

Like: Naomi visiting Janeway. Her suggestion for finding Seven was a relatively easy one by Voyager's standards and a standard search procedure they no doubt already initiated. Nevertheless, I liked her spunk and so did Janeway. She was shaking less than Harry Kim was when he was about to sprain something 4 seasons ago.

Like: Ryan and Mulgrew were excellent.

Dislike: The kid who played young Annika. Little Scarlett blows her away.

SoSo: Borg Queen. She was good but I would have liked a little more edge to her.

Like: Naomi's scene with Seven in the cargo bay. Naomi used the same words Seven read in her parent's logs. Nicely done.

Like: Ryan's acting when she saw her "papa." Nice shake. Very well done.

SoSo: Annika's father. His eyebrows looked like Homer Simpson's.

A+ Episode. Sorry folks. If anyone sent us emails, Hotmail has crapped out. I can't get into it.

Yeah, Mac, I liked that scene with Naomi...
Mike -- 19 Feb 1999, 11:48 PM

Mac said "Like: Naomi visiting Janeway. Her suggestion for finding Seven was a relatively easy one by Voyager's standards and a standard search procedure they no doubt already initiated. Nevertheless, I liked her spunk and so did Janeway. She was shaking less than Harry Kim was when he was about to sprain something 4 seasons ago."

I kind of liked Naomi too in that scene, it was cute the way she peeked around Tuvok and Janeway saw who it was. I bet that Captain Janeway saw a little of herself as a child in Naomi. She sure has a lot of spunk. I was hoping that when Naomi asked "you won't give up on her, will you?" that Kate would respond "I NEVER give up". Still, what she said about never abandoning a crew member was tough. To be honest, Mac, Naomi's scenes usually annoy me, but she is starting to grow on me now.

Species 5618?
bern -- 18 Feb 1999, 2:13 PM

Is of course (56)-(1+8)= doh!

This may have been pointed out somewhere, but I haven't been around all the time so I may have missed it. Since Ginny already proclaimed she would not see the ep 'til later I thought I would point it out just in case.

Other than that I read a lot of the posts on DF and everyone seemed to like something about it, as did I.

I believe the commercial breaks were too long too!

I was glad to see Kate put 7 to bed too! this is what I felt would happen after Bliss...2 steps forward then 1 back, eventually Janeway, comes back ahead...never losing sight of who is really in command. I still like the struggle between the 2 and look forward to more conflict/resolution.

I felt the Borg Queen let the shuttle go, because, she knew that she still needed some of 7's human compassion in order to carry out her plans. Also, when keeping someone prisoner, it's always good to throw them a few curves to keep 'em guessing. Once they are settled they can formulate an insurrection, however, keeping them confused occupies them in a way that won't allow them to think freely.

I felt TPTB had 7's relationship w/ her mom a bit distant on purpose, trying to imply that having an icy relationship w/ mom would have her crave for a more nurturing relationship w/ a surrogate, i.e. Kate or the Borg queen.

I wasn't fooled by the holo-test run, but did not anticipate "Daddy Drone"

I loved the "Naomi" dream sequence and found it an effective way to reach 7 and show development of 7's humanization....Hmmm if the alien in "Bliss" had the Borg queens insight, that ep would have turned out radically different.

I for one don't know the difference between Voy's Borg canon and TNG's but was a little miffed too! I for one would've liked them to refer to BoBW a little, but knowing that TPTB are trying to keep Voy in a separate place from other Trek (like not mentioning it on DS9, and keeping few references to Picard etc.) chalked it up to that.

ahhh well I also hope that next weeks voy isn't as abysmal as it appears. The only thing enticing about it so far is the woman that Harry falls for is Schmokin' but, you must know by now that even I won't defend an ep solely based on that.

tonight I will watch DS9 and if insomnia kicks in I may re-watch DF

I also thought the Borg Queen was Seven's Mother.
Ruth -- 18 Feb 1999, 2:28 PM

Terry wrote: "Before we even saw the Queen, I had the idea that she would be Mrs. Hansen....Since the Queen later stated that she was another species (125?), I guess my idea was wrong.... I did recognize her drone-daddy early on--I thought that he was the drone who was leaning over Seven when she finished regenerating. I wonder why she didn't recognize him."

If it wasn't the same actress, they found someone with a similar facial structure and body to play both the queen and the mother. I kind of got the idea that having the former Mrs. Hansen welcome Seven/Annika "home," was supposed to throw Seven off-balance. But then they made such a big deal out of having Seven recognize her father, (along with the 125 comment) that I got confused. I also saw Mr. Hansen (Magnus?) when Seven was regenerating, and wonder if there was a reason for that. Apparently not, or it got lost in editing.

Ruth -- 18 Feb 1999, 3:57 PM

LOL, Mike! I've been thinking that we picked the wrong Janeway characteristic for the pool.

Mike wrote: "One was when Janeway said Commander Chakotay is in charge and then practically gave him a neck message, geesh Kate, why don't you just grab his....oh, never mind."

Janeway has been very touchy this year, not just with her Angry Warrior but with her favorite (well most of the time) pilot as well. I saw her pat Tommy once or twice this year. I think we should have been counting love pats instead of coffee sips. :-)

BTW, you said you were going to mention two scenes, and you only mentioned this one. What was the other?

Mike -- 18 Feb 1999, 4:55 PM

Ruth, the other scene I meant to mention was what Elaine (my better half) said during the naked holographic beach boy scene. I later remembered and put it in a separate post called something like 'The line that should have been in 'Dark Frontier'. My wife cracked me up big time during that holograph scene. And you should have seen Elaine imitating the way Janeway was touching Chuck when she left him in charge. It was as funny as her Cardassian imitation in Red Rock Canyon.

You're right! We should have had a contest guessing how many times Janeway touches the guys ;^).

But how were we to know that she'd resume that habit?
Jules -- 18 Feb 1999, 5:10 PM

Although I'll admit that I think it great that she has. :-)

And, hasn't she started making up for lost time in the coffee drinking stakes? I know that there wasn't so much as a sniff of the stuff through most of the season's early episodes, but I'll swear she's drunk several gallons in the last four episodes I've seen.

Terry -- 18 Feb 1999, 6:03 PM

I believe that Voyager instigated that first Borg attack.

Which is different from starting it or provoking it. Voyager did not fire the first shot (they never do) and it didn't, IMO, give the Borg probe a reason to fear for their safety. But Voyager hey had that photon torpedo ready and Janeway was mostly upset that it had destroyed the transwarp coils.

My impression was that while we were supposed to initially believe that the Borg had found Voyager, the reverse was soon revealed to be true. Note that Janeway told Chakotay, "I hope that word of this [probe's destruction by Voyager] got transmitted back to the Collective." She was also very eager to search for other Borg ships.

From these facts, I concluded that Janeway had sought out the Borg probe because she knew Voyager out-gunned it and she wanted its transwarp coils.

BTW, I have no problem with her decision, ethically. The Borg have made themselves humanity's implacable enemy and she should steal whatever technology that she can from them. All's fair in love and war.

Leonie -- 18 Feb 1999, 6:17 PM

We come back again to the the inconsistency.

If the Borg were truly the Borg, they would leave Voyager alone, not want to assimilate them. They are not a culture, they are a small collection of individuals. And I don't agree with all bets off because they are at war. The Borg is at war with species 8472. (Or at least they are supposed to be.) Janeway was more at war with the Kazon that she was with the Borg. I never saw her trying to steal their technology.

I don't agree at all, I think that it was immoral and it only happened because she just thinks that She, being "Captain Janeway" shouldn't have to run from ANYONE including the Borg." From the time she made that statement "I feel lucky today", I knew it was going to be time for one her cockamamie ideas.

Janeway is getting as arrogant as Sisko and I for one don't appreciate it.

Eric -- 18 Feb 1999, 7:47 PM

If Janeway really WAS more like Sisko I would be a bigger fan... Hell, if Sisko had been in charge Voyager would be home right now :-)

But really Leonie, I think this was one of Janeway's best episodes! She never backed down and got what she wanted : Closer to home. Not to mention she spanked the Borg Queen. By the way, since the Collective attacked *EARTH* I think it's safe to say we are at war with them.

Carol -- 18 Feb 1999, 8:19 PM

I didn't see any inconsistency here

Leonie said:

If the Borg were truly the Borg, they would leave Voyager alone, not want to assimilate them. They are not a culture, they are a small collection of individuals. And I don't agree with all bets off because they are at war. The Borg is at war with species 8472. (Or at least they are supposed to be.) Janeway was more at war with the Kazon that she was with the Borg. I never saw her trying to steal their technology.

What tech did the Kazon have that's she'd need or want anyway? :-)

Really Leonie, by the way you put it, that means that BoBW and FC were nothing more than "skirmishes." :-)

I think it was established back around or sometime after TNG's I, Borg that the Federation considered the Borg to be a constant threat and that some state of standing war existed against them (which was the whole thing Picard wrestled with regarding sending Hugh back and not using him to try and kill the collective as a whole).

And what do you mean that if the Borg were truly the Borg then they would leave Voyager alone? I don't understand that. The Borg are not a small collective of individuals -- never have been. I didn't see that at all from this episode or any other previous Borg episode. They are a large collective of former individuals who collective will is dictated by two things -- achieving "perfection" through the rape and assimilation of others and the will of the Queen. The Borg seem to have some sort of established hierarchy, that's one new thing about them I got from Dark Frontier but that's all.

And they've wanted to assimilate Voyager since Scorpion (they even tried again in Drone) and from what Janeway implied during the first act, Voyager has been playing hide and seek with them to the point that they added two years to their journey.

The Borg obviously aren't xenophobic (if they were, why the heck would they want to assimilate *other cultures* into their "collective"?) Janeway stealing from them was no worse than the Borg stealing from hundreds of thousands of different cultures who never provoked them.

This episode had a lot of inconsistencies, but this wasn't one of them.

I don't agree at all, I think that it was immoral and it only happened because she just thinks that She, being "Captain Janeway" shouldn't have to run from ANYONE including the Borg." From the time she made that statement "I feel lucky today", I knew it was going to be time for one her cockamamie ideas.

Personally, I wondered what took them so long to get the idea. :-) And it wasn't much of a cockamamie idea because it did work.

Janeway can sometimes be too gun-ho, but she's always willing to take a risk. And remember what Kirk himself said about risk and the Big Chair. :-) True, the "I feel lucky today" line was a bit much, but she gambled, and it paid off. That -- more than anything -- is what I love to see in a SF Captain.

Terry -- 18 Feb 1999, 8:28 PM

Leonie was calling Voyager a small collection of individuals, not the Borg Collective.

Carol -- 18 Feb 1999, 8:40 PM

Oh! Okay, my mistake! But that doesn't mean that the Borg would ignore them. Almost the entire crew of Voyager is from the same place and Janeway has said on more than one occasion that Voyager is a small community all its own. Its own small society in fact (as she said in Worst Case Scenario).

And there have been instances of the Borg assimilating a ship its come upon: A freighter of Telaxians Seven mentioned in Mortal Coil not to mention Annika's parent's ship.

Terry -- 18 Feb 1999, 8:52 PM

But both the Talaxian ship and the Raven contained specimens of races previously unknown to the Borg.

Carol -- 18 Feb 1999, 9:11 PM

It probably depends on who the Borg are dealing with at the time whether they assimilate a individual ship or not.

Remember at the end of Hope and Fear when Atrius wound up by himself alone on the Dauntless in Borg Space? He was only one individual, yet it was more than implied that the Borg were going to assimilate him. And he was only one person. But it may mostly be do to the fact that he was in Borg space and not just passing a random cube.

Previous dealing before that episode did establish that the Borg ignore individuals until they're perceived as a threat. However, I think after their dealing in Scorpion, the Borg may have perceived Voyager as a threat to them and that's why they aren't ignored by the Borg when they happen to cross paths. No real inconsistency in that. And if the Borg Queen wasn't exaggerating and she really did plant Seven on Voyager (even if the whole thing sounds completely farfetched) then its a safe bet that the Borg were probably watching Voyager from time to time from a distance, looking for the right moment to take Seven back.

Mike -- 19 Feb 1999, 9:59 AM

He who hesitates...
----Carol WROTE----
"Remember at the end of Hope and Fear when Atrius wound up by himself alone on the Dauntless in Borg Space? He was only one individual, yet it was more than implied that the Borg were going to assimilate him. And he was only one person."

I was just about to bring up that point about 'Hope and Fear', but you beat me to it. There is no doubt in my mind that there are cases where the Borg have assimilated a few individuals even when they have already assimilated the majority of that species.

Deborah47 -- 19 Feb 1999, 12:12 AM

Mama Janeway and the teen years.

I agree wholeheartedly with your approval of Janeway's front and center position in this episode. I would like to warn you, Mike, of a simple fact of life. Teenagers, whether humanoid or borgified, do not act according to usual star fleet parameters. If TPTB follow their plan to have Seven be a 24 year old "teenager" then she will continue to push the limits and the Captain's buttons. It's just now she'll be doing it safe in the knowledge that THE Captain is HER Captain. That no matter how she screws up, HER Captain will NOT abandon her(Latent Image foreshadowing). With that reassurance Seven will grow a whole lot faster in the future than she has in the past 13 months.

Mike -- 19 Feb 1999, 10:53 AM

Deborah47 , one thing is for sure about Seven... ...if Seven had any doubts about the captain's feelings toward her they should be resolved after 'Dark Frontier'. Meaning, if Seven ever believed the captain didn't appreciate her or want her, she should know now that Janeway does without a doubt. I remember that look Kate gave Seven when she realized she was staying with the Borg. And how Kate said "I'm not leaving without you". Kate was heartbroken. I just loved those scenes. No doubt about it, in my mind now, Seven is Janeway's adopted daughter. I was surprised when even Chuck was ready to write Seven off in 'Dark Frontier'. He told Kate that Seven had once said "I will betray you" (I may not have gotten that quote exactly right). Janeway refused to believe that Seven would betray them and began her search of the sensor logs.
Anyway, I'm just pointing out that I believe Janeway cares more for Seven than anyone else on the ship cares for Seven (with the possible exception of that kid...can't think of her name right now).

This has nothing to do with you Deborah47, but I noticed a few posters have made it out like Seven has finally made her choice between Voyager and the Borg. It seems to me that she already made that choice in 'Hope and Fear' when she had a chance to reunite with the collective. I think there was also another example where she choose Voyager over the Borg, but it doesn't come to mind right now.

BTW, I've only been posting occasionally lately and I seem to have missed the arrival of many new posters. I'd like to say that it's nice to hear from so many new people. ....Please don't embarrass me now and say you've been here for months. I hope my memory isn't that bad :^).

Mike (pardon the bad grammar I rushed typing this post)

Mrs. Mac -- 19 Feb 1999, 11:06 AM

Mike said: Meaning, if Seven ever believed the captain didn't appreciate her or want her, she should know now that Janeway does without a doubt. I remember that look Kate gave Seven when she realized she was staying with the Borg. And how Kate said "I'm not leaving without you".

I agree with you completely, Mike. It was a wonderful scene. Similarly, Seven actually sacrificed herself for the benefit of her "new collective." The entire crew owes her a couple of credits at Sandrine's. I guess you can say she saved the ship again! However, I much rather see her do it this way! I'm fairly certain that Janeway has a lot more faith in Seven's trust than most of the rest of the crew - with the possible exception of Naomi - but this should erase some doubts.

In the end it was nice to see that Janeway ordered her to regenerate rather than having Seven TELL Janeway that she's going to. There is a difference. The command structure is back in place!

Deborah47 -- 20 Feb 1999, 7:52 AM

RE; The "tucking in" of Seven at the end, Mrs Mac... I thought it was so neat how they repeated several interactions between J/7 and Qu/7. The "time to regenerate" scene, the "Maybe I'm pushing you too hard scene, and the scenes between Inane parents /7 vs dream sequences with Queen masquerading as Naomi (gosh I'm really growing to like this kid. Sorry Leonie) I can just see the Queen trying to point out to Seven that Janeway's treatment of 7 is no different than the Queen's, and I can hear Janeway's reply. Quoting Kirk in that episode where the alien brings to life Lincoln and Siroch (I know I got the name wrong) to fight the worst evils of the universe. "you both" used the same tactics," asked the alien, "you are no different" Kirk asked "What did you offer those men if they succeeded?" Alien, "power & vast riches" (Faulty memory Ted, I'm sure, but you get the drift) Kirk just looked at him and said quietly,"You offered me the lives of my crew." THAT has always defined for me what a true Star Fleet Captain is. That's why I loved this week's episode sooo... much.

Ginny -- 21 Feb 1999, 1:32 PM

I'm with you, Deb47.

I think Naomi is turning into quite a splendid little addition to the crew. Her scene channeling the Borg Queen was terrific.

And what a nifty reference back to TOS. We just can't get enough of them on this board, if you ask me.

Shawnster -- 18 Feb 1999, 10:02 PM

Your biological and technological distinctiveness.... to our own.

I thought it was great. A stellar, stand out episode with the most character development and growth we've ever seen at one time.

Oh, I've got my nits. Most importantly being the 2 years Seven was away from the collective. 2 years? Year and a half at the most.

Also, Voyager's crew compliment again shrinks to 143.

Naomi's getting too smart. True, we don't know how detailed her rescue operation plan was. It may have looked childish to Janeway's eyes but it sure sounded smart and full of tech. She's gonna be another Wesley.

Lastly, Annika's parents set out to chase the Borg about 10 years before humanity's first contact with the Borg, the way I figure it, unless Seven is much younger than she appears.

Still, I thought it was a great story. Seven seduced to return to the collective. This was the moment of truth. I have to agree, this should be the last time we see the Borg for a long time. Have they lost another queen?

Favorite line: "I am Annaka Hanson." She's been thinking about this, especially in light of last week's episode. At least she's starting to think of herself as Annaka. Too bad she didn't completely cross the line and tell Voyager's crew that's what she wants to be called.

Yes, I have other nits as well. They could have sped up their time in the simulations by actually moving faster. They could have kept a transporter lock on them the whole time instead of having the away team scurry back to a predetermined transport sight. Harry and Tuvok don't have to stop to detonate the charges... Talk about poor tactics...

Why don't planets have large populations? The planet assimilated by the Borg only had 300 thousand people. Earth has almost 6 BILLION now. Why don't planets in the 24th century have billions of people on them?

Still, despite my complaints, I loved the movie. Outstanding. Bravo.

Mike -- 19 Feb 1999, 10:44 PM

The Borg queen was wrong, Seven was not the first...in 'Dark Frontier' the Borg queen said to Seven "You are the only Borg that has ever returned to a state of individuality". That was simply not true, what about Picard? Maybe Seven was a Borg for longer than Picard, but they both returned to being individuals.

Roxanne -- 19 Feb 1999, 11:35 PM

Had Picard been totally assimilated? (NIM)

Mike -- 20 Feb 1999, 12:06 AM

I believe that Picard was, Roxanne...in fact I'm not sure there is a case where someone was left just partly assimilated by the Borg (I could be wrong). As far as I know, Picard became 'Locutus of Borg' and was part of the collective just like Seven was. If I remember correctly, Captain Sisko had even blamed Picard for the death of his wife at Wolf 359.

Mr. Mac. -- 20 Feb 1999, 7:13 AM

This was a tough one for me too, big guy. These writers aren't *that* stupid to totally ignore Picard's assimilation in this scenario. The only explanation I have is that Picard returned to a fully hu-mon (Ferengi-speak) status. Seven is an individual yet still part Borg. Evidently she is still connected to the collective in some way otherwise she would not be receiving Borg transmissions. Also, she still needs to regenerate like a Borg. Not fully hu-mon and not fully Borg.

That brings up something else I thought of during Dark Frontier. I was hoping that the Queen was grooming Seven as a future Queen but nothing of the sort transpired. Instead, she was just a tool with special insight into humanity.

Deborah47 -- 20 Feb 1999, 8:00 AM

Do you think Borg queens always tell the truth... I don't think that anyone is going to admit such a titanic mistake as trying to reassimilate Picard as an independent being into the collective, and losing a Borg Cube and QUEEN in the process. Propaganda Mac, it's all propaganda. He who wins gets to "Write" the history. D47

Mike -- 20 Feb 1999, 9:55 AM

Mac, about your 'insight to humanity' point...
Mac said: "That brings up something else I thought of during Dark Frontier. I was hoping that the Queen was grooming Seven as a future Queen but nothing of the sort transpired. Instead, she was just a tool with special insight into humanity."

Wasn't that also what they wanted to use Picard for, a tool they could use for insights into humanity? This was kind of a coincidence, last night after posting about Roxanne's question (whether Picard was fully assimilated or not) I watched some TV. Guess what was on? 'First Contact' was on HBO (or maybe it was Showtime)! I caught it just near the end where Picard was offering himself to the Borg queen in exchange for Data. Picard and the Borg queen clearly stated that Picard had been assimilated. I wonder why Picard could be completely changed back to an individual and not Seven (I forgot what the doc said after 'Scorpion')? When you come right down to it, like you pointed out, Mac, Picard is really the only one that was once a Borg and completely changed back to being an individual (accept for some psychological scars). Seven is still partly Borg, so the Borg queen was wrong in her statement in that regard too (her statement that Seven was the only one).

BTW, after seeing the end of 'First Contact' again, I have to agree with those who like the Borg queen in that better than the one in 'Dark Frontier'. She definitely had a more venomous edge to her.

And one more thing. I wonder if the doc ever removed the changes the Borg made to Seven while she was regenerating on the Borg ship? Seven wasn't too happy about those changes made to her. Did she ever get changed back again? I don't remember it being mentioned.

Deborah47 -- 20 Feb 1999, 11:39 PM

Queen Kriege vs. Queen Thompson...I agree that Kriege's Queen had an edge that wasn't there in this show, but I think it was the bent of the show rather than the quality of acting. Kriege was toying sensually with Data, our fully functional android who wants to be human. Thompson was playing the Mommy card with our poor orphaned Seven, and although that can be overtly sensual also (see Angela Lansbury in "The Manchurian Candidate"), in our present era of Star Trek it's DS9 that would get that story line, not Voyager. (They'd just put it into the A/U and that would make it okay). D47

Deborah47 -- 21 Feb 1999, 2:36 PM

Crew of the Nebula make 2 errors...

I watched DF again last night and feel the need to correct 2 errors. It doesn't look like Papa Hansen's drone woke Seven from her regeneration. The one that woke her has a red ocular implant, Papa has none. More importantly, The Queen was NOT Anika's mom. The theory that was advanced on this board went: since only two actresses were credited and three are in the show then both adult women were played by one actress. Wrong guys! The actress playing Anika was credited in the closing credits, so the two adult women are those named earlier. I suspect that TPTB did this on purpose, to get us speculating on the Queen's identity, motives etc. (Reminiscent of Star Trek III Search for Spock when Nimoy wasn't credited until the close of the film.) Since it's been Voyager's Habit to credit kids with lines (Hologaphic novels) in the opening credits, and since Anika easily was as important an actress as the Mom, I conclude TPTB are toying with us. (They know us TOO well!) D47

Mr. Mac. -- 21 Feb 1999, 4:57 PM

Welcome to the board, D47!

You said: The Queen was NOT Anika's mom.

This probably refers to my post in which I stated that I was hoping that something cool like that would happen but no such luck. It was obvious that the Queen wasn't her mom. It would be pretty confusing to have the same actor play her dad and the drone and yet use two different actresses to play her mother. This in addition to the fact that the Queen looked nothing like her mother . . .

TPTB toying with us? Pretty lame if they were.

Captain Janeway and Magnus Hansen
Terry -- 21 Feb 1999, 9:05 PM

Upon re-watching Dark Frontier, I noticed the discussion between the Doctor and Janeway in the Delta Flyer. They were discussing Magnus Hansen and his wife. Janeway deeply admired their deep research of the Borg and the risk-taking used to obtain that research.

When the Doctor noted that they should have called it quits after a couple of years, she stated that they could (and should) have continued for 30 years more without exhausting the subject. She had no response to the Doctor's criticism of their taking their daughter into such dangerous conditions.

It seems to me that Janeway as mother of Voyager and her crew is much like Magnus Hansen. She loves her people but loves more abstract goals even more. While she will drop everything to save a member of her crew, she never stops to consider that her actions endangered that crewmember in the first place.

I'm certain that Magnus would have done anything within his power to save little Annika from assimilation when the Borg caught on to them. But he rarely considered it before that time. And took many dangerous risks, including some unnecessary ones in his impatience. Too many to realistically expect to win each gamble.

And Janeway is the same way. She wants to get her crew home but takes risks that could get them all killed. If she took a poll, I wonder how many of the crew would vote to get home ASAP if it meant placing the ship at grave risk? And how many would like to take it easier, either settle down on a planet or just take the slow route home with detours around dangers?

Of course, there would probably be no series if they weren't willing to risk all to get home in one hop.

Captain Janeway and Magnus Hansen
bern -- 21 Feb 1999, 9:23 PM

I agree w/ you Terry,

Janeway, at least has her senior staff to rely on, Chuckie and Tuvok to balance out some of her wilder notions...

Magnus had his wife who seemed exemplary as a scientist, but rather stiff as a mom. The 2 of them seemed more involved w/ their work than parenting, good intentions in the eleventh hour is a little late I'm afraid.

Once again we would not have good fodder for a storyline w/o their shortcomings, now would we.

Deborah47 -- 22 Feb 1999, 5:25 AM

I agree they shouldn't have brought Anika....but do you think they kept up with the BORG as their only means to return to the Alpha Quadrant? Who's to say that the first Cube they followed to the DQ ever returned to the AQ? I think, arrogant
though they were, the Hansens were in that old dilemma of the man riding a Tiger. Things aren't too bad till it's time to dismount! THEY were the ones who should have taken a vote and settled on some nice M class planet! D47

Deborah47 -- 22 Feb 1999, 5:08 AM

Actually, Terry, they did take one of your votes....in the "37's". They found the planet with 200,000 human descendents of the people "kidnapped" from earth. It was an alpha quadrant's dream; cities, country, familiar species with a common ancestry, and for history buffs (read Janeway & Paris) Amelia Earhart. The crew had already been traveling a year and was "only" a year closer to home (unlike this year where they've traveled a year and are 25 years closer to home: Timeless & Dark Frontier). Janeway gave the crew the option of continuing the journey or staying with the "37's". When she and Chak went to the cargo bay to wish goodbye to all those leaving, they found no-one waiting to go. I think that moment crystallized for Janeway that her Obsession (and you are right, she's definitely Obsessed) was approved if not endorsed by her crew. If I got to vote, it would take a LOT longer to get home, but then I'm a weenie when it comes to crossing the BORG. Some of her choices have been made because she, like the Hansens, got overconfident in her dealings with the BORG. Hopefully she has learned from the Hansens' mistake and her own encounter with the Queen and will be more circumspect in the future.

And one last thought. I think this is another reason why Janeway NEEDS Seven on board (Nothing to do with ratings, guys). Seven is an IN YOUR FACE reminder of what happens to arrogant people. And if an Example isn't enough, there's that darn attitude that sooo many neubbies HATE to see. Remember, the natural tendency for Star Trek crews is to follow their Captain right over the cliff (ST8-First Contact). It takes an outsider (Lily in First, Seven in Voy) to stop and say THIS ISN'T a good idea guys. (Or in Lily's case,"Jean Luc, BLOW UP THE D@mN SHIP!"). Conflict and passion make for great literature, that's why Chak finds Vulcan Literature a bit dry (Demons & Monsters) Here's to hoping TPTB aren't really Vulcans. D47

MEG -- 22 Feb 1999, 9:05 AM

Terry, which TOS episode is it. . .. . .in which Kirk gives a little speech to the effect that taking risks even in the face of substantial odds is what Starfleet is all about? It seems to me that he goes on to say that all of them recognized the risks when they joined the crew of a starship and had made the choice because they believed that what they gained was worth it. I caught it last fall when I was watching some of the TOS episodes on the SciFi channel and thought at the time that it would be interesting to discuss its relevance to Voyager, but I never found the time to do the post.

As for the Hansens, they struck me as the type of people who should have had their parenting license revoked. But in fairness to them, I suppose you could say the same thing about my great-grandparents who blithely took their children out to settle on the prairie in an active Indian War zone. Or about the Roanoke colonists in North Carolina 400 years ago -- remember Virginia Dare?

We're much more safety-obsessed as a society now than we were in the past -- even as recent a past as the 1960s, when Kirk's impassioned little speech was obviously written as a defense and apologia for the space program in the face of things like the Apollo launch pad accident. That's bound to color our views of the people who do take great risks in pursuit of knowledge or a better life or whatever the goal, no matter how worthy it may be, and make those people seem less heroic to us. And it may even make them seem slightly or totally nuts.

No wonder the Borg -- and Seven -- have trouble understanding humanity! And that's as philosophical as I ever hope to get on a Monday morning.

Terry -- 22 Feb 1999, 6:01 PM

Dunno, MEG, but I like your argument.

I like it because I figure I can poke some mighty big holes in it.

First off, the Maquis crewmembers never joined Starfleet. They joined the crew aboard Voyager because their own ship was destroyed and they had little choice. They never dedicated their lives to Starfleet's ideals of exploring space and extending scientific knowledge. They signed on to survive and return home.

They may have all changed their minds but TPTB have never confirmed this. All we know is that they prefer staying aboard and following Janeway's orders to being stranded in the Delta Quadrant.

Second, your points about past explorers missed the target. The people that you named were not explorers or scientists; they were pioneers or emigrants. The whole point of their movement was to seek a better life for themselves and especially for their children. They wanted more freedom and better economic success. They felt that the risks were worth the rewards. You can hardly make a new home and leave the kids behind.

And in fact, many pioneers in American history often sent out the father first to establish the new home. With the rest of the family to follow. Or a single men established a home and then got a wife from back East.

True explorers never went lugging around their families just to have them around. Vasco de Gama, Christopher Columbus, Lewis and Clark. Nope, they didn't bring their families along. Not unless they were members of the expedition. De Gama and Columbus might have had young boys along but they were part of the crew and performed necessary tasks. Okay, Sacawegea had a kid on her trip but she wasn't exploring; she was returning home.

A while back, I complained about Naomi Wildman going on an away mission. Somebody (probably that darn Vickie!) pinged me pretty good in making a point about different cultural attitudes about kids and their safety. She rightly pointed out that Naomi was part of the crew, like it or not, and needed to be trained as such.

OTOH, the Hansens had a choice about taking young Annika into danger. She was too young to be of any help to her parents in operating the ship or studying the Borg. And her parents knew that there was a strong possibility of danger. (Magnus theorized that the Borg weren't really so dangerous -- which implies that others thought differently.) Annika couldn't help their research.

Actually, the original description of the Hansens from last season made their bringing along Annika fine with me. They were described as counterculture free-spirits who were leaving the Federation. Packing up their space-van and hitting the road. They were taking Annika along because they might not be back and they didn't want her growing up in the disliked Federation culture.

But the Dark Frontier Hansens were just foolish, obsessed scientists who cared more about scientific research than their only child.

Mr. Mac. -- 22 Feb 1999, 6:07 PM

Terry: Actually, the original description of the Hansens from last season made their bringing along Annika fine with me. They were described as counterculture free-spirits who were leaving the Federation.

I had absolutely no problem with the Hansens bringing along the kid on a long, dangerous expedition. After all, it has happened countless times in history. Everything from the first colonists who sailed across the Atlantic to the intrepid western-ho covered wagon pioneers. These people traveled as families into the unknown and certain danger.

Dark Frontier Review...
Annie -- 23 Feb 1999, 10:36 PM

I actually liked it believe it or not. I think Jeri Ryan did a standup job of acting in this one. One of the things I think I dislike about her character most of the time (other than seeing her in every other episode), is that she seems not to grow more human as time passes. This episode let us see her "Seven" perfectionism pitted against the Borg, then her human side prevail overall. That's something I have been waiting to see in her character development for a long time. Unlike Data, who was originally an artificial being, Seven was originally the human Annika. Her character should be allowed to evolve much more easily to human. Data's desire alone to become more human is what made us hope for him to be human.

I have read about all the discrepancies regarding continuity. All I can say, is that the writers can't remember it all. I am sure they remember a great deal, but I am assuming that they have people or a person who is hired to make sure all the details in their story's are on track. I will say again, as I have said before, "whoever they have researching the details regarding history is sadly lacking in their job!" If the fans can pick up on so many mistakes, something is wrong somewhere. A few booboo's okay, but too many, and something is definitely wrong. IMO something is definitely wrong with whom ever they hired to do this particular task.

On with the review. A few things that caught my attention were:

The Janeway scene with Naomi. What a treasure. Naomi peeking behind Tuvok's back. Naomi's childish but rational solution to saving her Seven. Janeway thanking her for her input and referring to her as a crewman. Good touch.

Doc getting motion sickness. That was pretty funny. (hee hee)

Tom's face when he saw the Borg city for the first time. Priceless

The Borg city; impressive. They even had a rail system.

Janeway having the intelligence to probe the regenerating drone then waking him up to get the force field modulation. Genius if you ask me.

The skin clampers that held on Queen Borg's outfit. YOUCH!! That must have really hurt.

The Queen Borg's eyes. Shiny the whole time. Quite creepy. Others have said she wasn't as creepy as the previous Queen. I guess I would have to agree, but she was still creepy.

I thought everything she said to Seven was a bluff. Including telling Seven that she is the one who allowed her to remain on Voyager. That was a total bluff IMO. Queen was playing on Seven's emotions the whole time. She figured that was the way to "get to her" most efficiently.

Seven's unerring loyalty to Janeway and to Voyager was commendable. Even when she "defected", I knew she wanted to do something to stop the Borg in the long run.

I think that the Voyager crew (especially Janeway) have become way too comfortable with being around the Borg.

I now have many, many questions about the Borg.

When the queen dies, what happens then? Is there only one queen? Is there a new queen when one dies? Are there many queens?

Did the queen die in the transwarp explosion? (It was her ship that followed them in, and looked like the same one blowing up). I expect she died in the explosion.

How did the Hanson's find out about the Borg.

How did they get so Borg savvy?

Did the Casting Director's actually think that that little girl resembled Jeri Ryan in any way?

Is there just one "Borg Territory," or many? If there is just one main Borg territory, then Voyager had to have gone back close to, where it was that Kes skirted them away from last season.

I could go on, but I am getting tired, and have to get to bed.

Deborah47 -- 24 Feb 1999, 5:59 AM

I agree with many of your comments about this episode. I too loved the Captain & Naomi scene (put it in the vault), and I loved seeing Seven progress in her humanity. You've included many of my favorite moments, if I may I'll add a few others. The scene in the corridor,after the intense conversation with the doc, when Seven is having a (near) panic attack. The look she gave KJ when she heard she was being replaced on the away team & her IMPASSIONED plea to remain at her Captain's side. The look she sent KJ when KJ stopped and turned to look back as BORG drones converged around them. She wanted KJ (And Naomi et al) to be saved, but she DIDN'T want to be left behind. The ultimate conflict. If it wasn't a gesture that she'd rather NOT make it wouldn't be so poignant. I could hear Kirk reciting the end of A TALE OF TWO CITIES again. "Tis a far far better thing I do than I have ever done. Tis a far far better rest I go to than I have ever known". Unfortunately for Seven, she wasn't going to a rest but to the collective. And like what Eric Severeid said (re WWII) there are some forms of life worse than death. FORTUNATELY For Seven, part of James T Kirk has been reincarnated into Janeway! Fortunately for US, the PTB (continuity ?"s aside) gave us one rip roarin', rootin tootin' morality play last week and I for one was ecstatic! D47