Counterpoint

Carol -- 16 Dec 1998, 8:38 PM

Counterpoint quite exceptional. Well, to start, I like seeing Voyager at 3:30 in the afternoon ::grin:: Its fun seeing a episode five and 1/2 hours before its suppose to air -- especially when I know it is and I don't miss it. Bless you UNLV, you've manage to take the edge off finals week for me (now I can go to bed earlier as I have two morning finals tomorrow beginning at 8:00. Ugh!).

Anyway, I may be biased as this was a Janeway episode, but I thought this episode was quite well done, except for the ending which was wonderfully exceptional. The Kate I know and love and who was sorely missing during most of season four was back here in top form with all her assets (and yes, some faults as well) in tack. Happily, the good far outweighed the bad.

Cheers

All of Kate's best qualities were showing in fine form. Cute Kate, Strong Kate, Sassy Kate, etc. I'm almost inclined to believe that this was the best performance I've seen from Kate Mulgrew since season three's Scorpion. And I love her taste in music -- at least Tchaikovsky. I can't say I'm a big fan of Mahler though. :-)

I really liked the interplay between Kate and Kraysik[sp?]. I didn't particularly find their later encounters "romantic" in any sense (I'll get to the kiss in a minute), but the point, counterpoint of their interaction with each other was definitely well written by Michael Taylor and believable to me. He didn't try to "force" their dialogue to move into corny romantic nonsense. And Kraysik was some "himbo" ASOTW either Thank God -- the man had loads of personality; more than I've seen from Chakotay until this season (don't hurt me Chakoholics! :-D) Anyway, this was two adults getting to know each other and, yes, were even maybe becoming attracted to each other. The scene between the two of them in the mess hall was very nice and not overly done.

And I know you all noticed how she turned down his invitation to "join him" in his quarters? ::smirk:: We all know that if Krysik had been some ABBOTT (Alien Babe Of The Week) and she had been inviting either Kirk, Picard or Sissy in, none of them would have thought twice about it, would they? ::smirk:: (But I digress. I LOLL'd at her parting comment to the unlocking ensign during that scene -- and I LOLL'd even more at the expression on her face when the Alien Scientist flared his nose :-).

The twist at the end totally took me by surprise. When Kraysik betrayed Janeway my first though was "Oh no, TPTB make Kate do something stupid again and this time just because she kissed so guy she's attracted to!?" My second though was -- "Wait a minute, she's going to get out of this, but how?" And I loved the "how." Kate's poker face during the whole scene had me silently cheering.

Best line of the episode: "That is the theme for this evening, sin't it?" -- Janeway to Kraysik, after accusing her of creating "false readings" or a wormhole nearby (not to mention the "false readings" he'd been giving her -- its moments and lines like this that make me love Janeway :-)

As for the kiss -- well, I didn't see it as overly passionate or romantic (even though their was some passion in it when she kissed him back). It was sweet, I'll say that. And Kate initiating the second part of it -- I knew it was coming, but it was still a surprise to see. But the ending counterpoint moves by them both (especially Janeway) left me wondering if their was some other motivation behind that kiss on her part, not just on his (we know there was on his). The ending with Kate siting on the bridge listening to Mahler (one of Krysik's favorite composers) was rather telling however.

Anyway, I loved the Janeway shoreline of this episode as if you could't already tell. :-D

Jeers

The telepath part of this episode was completely incidental. It wan't bad I just didn't pay much attention to that part of the story. The Janeway/Kraysik interaction was far more interesting IMO.

Anyone but me notice that Tuvok was on the bridge during the last inspection? I still can't decide if this was a screw-up on the directors part or a hint about what was going to happen.

The J/C'ER in me can't decide weather or not the lack of any acknowledgement of what was going on with Janeway and Kraysik by Chakotay was a bad thing or not. If their had been one, part of me does think it would have been unnecessarily though.

Anyway, that's all I can think of for now. Not, the best episode of the season (I still give that honor to Timeless) but so far, for me, it's most definitely in the top five, along with Extreme Risk and Nothing Human, mostly because of the counterpoint play between Janeway and Karysik.

D'Alaire -- 16 Dec 1998, 9:31 PM

Who are you and what are doing with Tommy's trousers?!

That's what I noticed first about Kraysik and Kate in the mess hall. He stole his trousers from Scientific Method (drooool) and dyed them. Better still--they fit. Egad! Kate's either a masochist for resisting that or the strongest woman alive. Even my mother, watching along this week, was drooling--and she scoffs at most AOTW. (What can I say? I take after her. [grin])

But, and more to the point, I agree with you, Carol. This was a nice and welcome Janeway ep. Quite a change in her from the last couple weeks (aside from her little "protocol" reminder to Tom, who I noticed she called by name a little later--which leaves me still wondering what's going on there), but nice at that.

I haven't seen her that kitty Kate since "Prime Factors," and she was even more so here, plus so much more, as you mentioned. Great stuff.

The plot, yes, kept me guessing --and when I suspected it, too, I cheered-- but aloud. It was great to see her so deliciously clever. But the look on her face at the end...sigh. Poor lady. (The look on her face just screamed, "I am never going to have sex again as long as I live."--sorry, but that's what came to mind.) And I did feel for her, for with all her caution at the end, I did but that she was really enjoying "being" with someone with her same wavelength, platonically or otherwise, outside the confines of Starfleet, that she could get attracted to without having to think of conflicts of interest.

Despite her "caution" with Kraysic, her look at the end said that, too. She hoped...but probably knew it was too good to be true, to have that kind of companionship.

I agree the telepaths were hollow -- but they were plot device. Ah well. I did snicker and groan, though, when Neelix was telling Treevis and Flut-Head stories (and I looked back to my confused mother and explained, "the 24th century incarnation of Barney." --and she rolled her eyes and said, "Ugh.")

It was a good ep, not the best, not the worst, but up there. It started interestingly--a nice, non-standard introduction (and the classical music [I'm not much for Mahler, either, but it was a very nice selection] during the empty-hearted "inspection" reminded me of the train/luggage inspection scenes from "Escape from Sobibor" somehow).

After that, it got on more slowly, then picked up at the end. But it did keep my interest. Plus, it was nice to see the different angles of Janeway again. I don't know how to reconcile them with the incarnations of weeks past just yet, but I did like seeing those different sides of her again.

Leonie -- 17 Dec 1998, 8:03 AM

Who are you, what are you doing in Tommy's Trousers? That's what I read at first!!

Must have been way to tired last night. Either that or PegN and Ginny have finally gotten to me.

Carol -- 17 Dec 1998, 1:56 PM

I was reminded of Shindler's List D'A....during those scenes with the Stormtrooper guys walking around while the music was playing -- reminded me of the scene where the Nazi's played classical romantic music while the Jewish prisoners stood nakid for inspection. Escape From Sobiborg is a good comparison too.

As for Janeway breaking the PD in this ep -- I think the music gave me the Jews fleeing from Nazi persecution parallel that popped into my head about this. It was completely different from what Paris attempted last week -- and Kate mostly busted on him not for breaking the PD (by trying to help people who didn't want his help) but for disobeying her direct order. And the telepath refugees obviously wanted Janeway and Voyager's help, which is one of the reasons I stated last week that Janeway breaks the PD on consistently.

Also, another point -- as much as I loved this episode, I do wish at the end that Janeway had gotten up and sat back down in her own chair before she began looking so introspective. Contrary to a lot of comments being made on [J/C] e-mail lists, I don't think she was depressed about loosing a potential lover, I just think she was sad because she generally liked the guy (I don't think she was "in love" with him or anything, just attracted to him) and had hoped he wouldn't betray her. And his comment about the "bridge is yours.." Humph! I was waiting for her to say "It's always been mine, I've just been letting you borrow it for a few minutes." :-D

OK, I'm nitpicking. I really did love this episode, mostly for the cat and mouse thing between Janeway and however-you-spell-his-name. :-)

Terry -- 16 Dec 1998, 9:21 PM

Counterpoint was darn good! Once again, Voyager has managed to surprise me this season. Again and again the preview and TV guide description of an episode gives the false impression of a unremarkable ep.

This was probably the best Janeway episode for a long time. Mike is right: Kate is a babe! Okay, a sexy mature woman. Nice kiss, Kate!

Likes

Janeway in her T-shirt. Hubba, hubba.

An excellently written and acted AOTW. I suspected that he would be a bad guy but his performance made me hope that he wasn't. Until the final scene when he and Janeway were alone, I hadn't completely ruled out that he was now pretending to be a bad guy. I also appreciated that he was not wholly bad; at least, he had humor and intelligence without being petty or blindly fanatical.

Excellent music.

It was unusual to see Voyager being put in an inferior position to the AOTW without being attacked.

Nice relationship between Kashak? and Janeway. It showed the growing affection between the two without getting overwrought. Now that's what Unforgettable should have been like.

I got the impression that more than anything else, Janeway just enjoyed talking and playing with someone on an equal footing. Someone with similar tastes, humor, and intelligence. Sorry, girls, but Chakotay can be so boring at times.

Wow! A new record: two shuttles lost at once. Flite, were we counting destroyed or lost shuttles?

Cool-looking vicious alien warships. Now those ships looked quietly lethal.

Dislikes

Tuvok is out in the open on the last Dvor inspection.

They shouldn't have shuffled this ep to right after Thirty Days. Janeway's confession about breaking the PD and joking about having friends among the admirals came across as a bit hypocritical given how she came down so hard last week on Paris.

I was expecting to see Naomi Wildman. She finally gets a bunch of kids her own age to play with but doesn't take advantage?

Why is Neelix telling a Flotter/Trevis story to telepaths? Just play the holostory and let them experience firsthand and also be unable to read the ending.

BTW, has anyone else noticed that we seem to be getting a new set of Voyager extras?

Bottom Line: Good fun episode. Not exactly light but a welcome break from the angst-ridden albeit well-written eps of season five.

Jason -- 16 Dec 1998, 10:27 PM

Voyager's new crew. Terry, I have been meaning to mention the new extras to you for awhile. I've noticed the absence of
many of Voyager's old familiar faces. Gone are old standbys like "Bluebird" and "Grey Man" as the Roll Call site so lovingly refers to them.

However, up until a few episodes ago I thought it just could be by happenstance that we were seeing other extras instead of the more familiar ones. However, both this week and in "Timeless" we saw a great deal of extra who were completely unfamiliar. I don't think I recognized anyone in the Engineering scene in "Timeless" and very few faces leaped out this week. It's picky, but I don't particularly care for a lot of the new extras. Many of them don't look like Starfleet officers. A lot of the women seem as if they were just plucked off the street and put in to a uniform. The men are okay, I guess... no real change (and wasn't that Baytart who was Kashyk's guard? If not him by name, that extra is certainly an old regular) but the new women I don't particularly care for.

Leonie -- 16 Dec 1998, 9:38 PM

Wednesday Nights on UPN aka Leonie falls off....

The Beefcake wagon....

You know I now realize what you guys have been going through for years. It's just sooooooo distracting... (sigh)

Give me a man in uniform or a tux any day!!!

Ah yes, Counterpoint.

Great episode and definitely one of the keepers.

LIKES:

- Discussion on the prime directive and the amount of times this side of heaven that Janeway has broken it...more proof that TPTB at least read the discussion among the fans.

- Janeway wasn't duped by the ASOTW. Chakotay and Paris she ain't. Halleluia!!!

-Powerful story in the intrigue, the in naming of it (finally we get an explanation on why it was changed and it is a good one) and it flows, I was caught up in it. I say that it's a powerful story because for the first time I had to repeat my litany to myself in three seasons...

These actresses/actors have another year's contract. None are going to die, Janeway will not lose her ship, we've been there and done that....Everything will be all right

Or will it?, TPTB are certainly taking chances this year.

What I mean to say is that it made me believe that they could have lost the ship and some of the crews lives something I haven 't believed watching a story since the earlier seasons.

- Paris is still at the helm. I have no idea when this was filmed, if the script was done before or after 30 days. But it's great to know that he will always be on the Bridge with Chak, Harry, Ayala....

(Oh my!!...must regain control here...)

(Get some help here, Leonie's slipping off the wagon again!!!)

- Mulgrew is one he!! of an actress. All my fears were put to rest once she looked at the Studmuffin's shuttle leaving the bay, she knew exactly what he was going to do, even though she was hoping against hope that he wouldn't do it.

- I actually liked the fact that she had made a contingency that he was indeed for real. If he was indeed telling the truth, she would have taken him with her, I really believed that she would have.

- That Kiss...YOWSA. It's not Kirk, Picard or Sissy Kiss. It was a he!! of a lot more passionate (reflection the passions of Capn' Kate of course) who has a whole lot more sexual passion that Kirk (Womanizer too busy trying to prove that he's the best by over reacting when he's kissing to be truly caught up in it) Picard (If a woman had an antimatter pill and a matter pill on her mouth when she kissed him, the explosion will still not be enough to melt the coldness in that man) and Sissy (Who has passion for everything else except the women in his life!!) all put together.

Nits

- I hated when he said "The bridge is yours" at the end....I wondered who missed the line "It was always mine inspector, I just let you sit in it because I was willing to overlook a minor breech of protocol." Come on Kate, this was your chance to get back at him for humiliating you in the inspections.

- I found that she could have done a little bit more in the counterpoint.

I had hoped that the target that he detonated the photon torpedoes would have been his actually warships and the she would have turned to him in the command chair and said...

"Where's the horse that you rode in on?"

After he looks at her quizzically, she then says..."It's a 20th century Earth saying, I'm surprised that you didn't run across it when you were studying our databases."

I had also hoped that his shuttle would have not been on the ship and she had beamed him and his inspection team to his shuttle with a stock supply of leola root to wait for their patrol ship to pick them up...

What's that you say about me....

blush, blush, blush . Awe Shucks, you're just saying that to make me feel better.

D'Alaire -- 16 Dec 1998, 9:43 PM

You wrote,
Paris is still at the helm. I have no idea when this was filmed, if the script was done before or after 30 days. But it's great to know that he will always be on the Bridge with Chak, Harry, Ayala....

I did notice--and correct me if I missed a brighter shot--that Tom's collar was awful dark, even while Janeway's reminder of Protocol was there. I suspect they didn't know what the order would be, as 30 Days did have a lot of FX to take care of.

The comment could have escaped detection if they'd had to push it back another ep, but the collar wouldn't have.

BTW--did anyone else think they stole Artuis' scull and painted it for that wormhole dude?

Terry -- 16 Dec 1998

When was Paris duped by the ABBOTT, Leonie? (NIM)

Leonie -- 17 Dec 1998, 8:05 AM

I did, but then there was the Nasal gestures.... And I forgot all about it laughing so hard!!!

Jules -- 17 Dec 1998, 6:42 AM

Hmm. Lidell Ren, maybe?

She did try to [a] seduce him and [b] set him up for her husband's murder.

Not many other candidates though. After all, we already know that he doesn't date girls from other galaxies. And, with the exceptions of Lidell... and our darling Kes, he's proven a little more reluctant to even date girls from other quadrants than most of his colleagues!

Shipboard romance is obviously a lot more his style...

Leonie -- 17 Dec 1998, 7:24 AM

Exactly Jules.... Lidell Rell was exactly the woman I was thinking about.

OOh Jules, you forget all those lovely Teresian women that he was sooo reluctant to date. It was a good thing that Harry was the focus of their passions. Or he may have had to break his personal dating code for that one.

O. Deus -- 16 Dec 1998, 10:30 PM

Counterpoint: Janeway finally sinks to a new low.

We begin this episode with Janeway letting Gestapo thugs tramp all over her ship while she effectively surrenders and hopes they won't find her crewmembers whose lives she's risking by hiding them...and who in fact the Gestapo thugs do find but decide to play out the game.

Next the leader of the black shirted thugs (you just know that Janeway's romance would be a character you instantly hate on sight even more than you do her) comes on board and after a brief confrontation in which Janeway seems more concerned with establishing territoriality, the two are snuggling together and working on the science data in a repeat of 'Janeway Superwoman' instead of Torres and Seven who actually handle the science data.

During this we learn absolutely nothing about the Devorran culture or even about their politics, instead we have multiple close ups of Janeway's face which as usual conveys the only expression Mulgrew is physically capable of, Reagenasque determination that on examination wavers on senility. Of course anyone with half a brain has spent most of the episode yelling DON'T TRUST HIM! and after Janeway does everything wrong that she could possibly do...we learn that Janeway was ahead of the game all along.

Forgetting the stupidity of this final plot twist and the way it's thrown out more as a last ditch idea for a script going nowhere than anything else...Janeway's brilliant maneuver saves the telepaths and puts Voyager at the complete mercy of the Devorrans. As a tactical maneuver this is right up there with flying your starship into a planet to stop...(something Janeway recently did in Timeless)...and the only reason Voyager isn't disposed of is apparently because the Inspector doesn't want this to look bad on his resume.

This being a police state though where everything is monitored one would think that he'd get in much more trouble for covering up something like this and might even be charged with aiding and abetting fugitives and would end up in the same detention camp...at least you'd assume that he would dispose of the evidence...namely Voyager and her crew but of course he just decides to let everyone go because he's a nice guy. And Janeway has risked Voyager on this flimsy premise.

In summary, Janeway surrenders her ship several times to hostile aliens nazis, has a fling with one of them who claims to be a good nazi and her brilliant plan again involves surrendering Voyager and hoping the nazis let her go because it might make them look bad.

Jason -- 16 Dec 1998, 10:54 PM

Yes, the Devore and their motivations were very thin. However, Voyager has done quite a bit on alien cultures this season and this was a character show that was necessary and crucial for Janeway.

We have not really been able to see Janeway form relationships throughout the show's five seasons. She has remained to herself, which is consistent with the captain who in "Caretaker" said that she never got to know her crew before. We saw Janeway form in to a caring but detached mother throughout the first few seasons. Seven of Nine forced Janeway to be more active, intimate and involved with her crew, but we have never really seen Janeway form relationships for herself with others on the same level and out of personal interest before aside from "Resolutions". (Although I liked "Resolutions", but mostly for the monkey).

For that reason, can we go an episode where we take the Devore's hatred for granted? Sure. I could have done with more but with an interesting relationship between Janeway and Kashyk more than filling the hour it turns out I could do without as well.

I admit that Janeway' deception at the end was a surprise but really it is completely in keeping with Janeway's character. She always takes this method in dealing with suspicious people. We may object to the method (although this "guess what, I knew about your secret motives all along" trick was also used in "Investigations") I have to say her methods were in keeping with her character. And in retrospect she did exactly what she said she'd do at the beginning. She kept up precautions as she had advised Tuvok. Perhaps it was just the effectiveness of their relationship that made us forget that they existed.

The resume thing was sudden, yes. However, it seemed as if Janeway had a card up her sleeve she hadn't played. Surely she must have. In fact she implied to Kashyk that she was ready and willing to fight the Devore if she had to.

While there may be some weaknesses in the secondary plot this episode's strength was in it's illustration of Janeway forming a relationship with another, and had a romance blossomed between the two I'd have to say that it would have been one of the best Trek romance episodes ever. But when it's competition is "Captain's Holiday", "The Outcast", "Second Sight", "Let He Who Is Without Sin" the accomplishment of achieving that title probably isn't too prestigious. :-)

Terry -- 16 Dec 1998, 11:10 PM

Janeway's course was only reasonable way to protect the telepaths.

You wrote:
We begin this episode with Janeway letting Gestapo thugs tramp all over her ship while she effectively surrenders and hopes they won't find her crewmembers whose lives she's risking by hiding them...and who in fact the Gestapo thugs do find but decide to play out the game.

The Devorran ships were shown as having overwhelming superiority to Voyager. The only choices are to allow inspections or to fight and die. Death won't help the telepaths. And just how is she risking their lives by hiding them if she can't fight the Dvor off or flee?

Frankly, she treated Kashik? with a lot more suspicion than she usually shows. It was stated that he might be tricking them to find the wormhole. But if they didn't accept his help, they could never get the refugees to safety.

You also wrote:
Janeway's brilliant maneuver saves the telepaths and puts Voyager at the complete mercy of the Devorrans.

Wasn't that the whole point? I thought that you wanted to save the telepaths? And really, Voyager was always at the mercy of the Devorrans. Only the inspector's liking for Janeway kept them from getting imprisoned.

Janeway acted more intelligently in Counterpoint than she usually does. Okay, she is attracted to Kashik. So what, if it didn't affect her behavior?

IMHO, Counterpoint was much more interesting than the boring Insurrection.

Andy -- 17 Dec 1998, 11:56 AM

I had a problem with the way the Aliens came aboard simply because I compared it the way a modern day navy captain might handle a similar situation. I don't believe a US Navy captain is allowed to compromise the what is essentially the sovereign territory of the United States by allowing a foreign force to board his ship and essentially take command. It also
troubled me that the aliens would have had access to the entire Voyager data base.

In the final analysis, I decided that this point was basically a knit for what I considered a very good episode, which I will address in a separate post.

Terry -- 17 Dec 1998, 6:41 PM

U.S. Navy warships have been stopped & searched by foreigners.

Okay, the last time that I know of was 191 years ago in the famous Chesapeake-Leopard incident, which helped start the War of 1812. Other American ships were stopped and searched around that time but this is the only example of a naval vessel of which I am aware.

In 1807, the British frigate, Leopard, stopped and attempted to search the U.S. frigate, Chesapeake, off U.S. waters. The Brits intended to remove, against their will, four American sailors that they claimed were British deserters. When the American captain, Commodore Barron, refused to be searched, the Chesapeake was fired on and several Americans were killed and wounded. At that point, Barron allowed the Brits to remove the four sailors.

FYI, Barron was court-martialed and found guilty. Not for submitting to the search after being beaten but for being unprepared for battle, as the Chesapeake was unable to return fire. Not the U.S. Navy's (IMHO, the Royal Navy's) finest moment.

Footnote: In the War of 1812, the last captain of the Chesapeake, James Lawrence, uttered the famous words, "Don't give up the ship," just before dying of his wounds. Whereupon, his first officer then surrendered. This was the final chapter of this seemingly jinxed ship. All but one of her captains were disabled, killed or disgraced. Needless to say, the name Chesapeake was never used but once briefly ever again in the U.S. Navy.

Andy -- 17 Dec 1998, 7:22 PM

There was an incident in the 60's or 70's...when a Russian ship was alongside a US Coast Gaurd cutter and one of the Russian (actually, I believe he was from Lithuania or one of those states) jumped onto the US ship. The US commander was anxious to avoid an incident and ordered that the defecting seaman be returned, and in turn, the American ship captain, who didn't have the stomach to order his own men to return the defector to the Russians, allowed Russians to come on board his ship to take the man back.

Afterward, the ship commander was either canned or severely disciplined for allowing the sovreignty of a US ship to be compromised. I believe this incident was later made into a movie.

I guess that the moral is "might makes right." No way would someone attempt to board a US ship without some sort of consequences (such as the Pueble Incident). I submit even if that happened today the results would be more dire.

Janeway was undoubtedly far overmatched, which makes her actions somewhat more understandable.

Shawnster -- 17 Dec 1998, 1:48 PM

Search and seizure. But Andy, EVERYONE has access to Voyager's database. All you have to do is come on board, Janeway and Co. are always more than willing to open up the ship, show everyone around the most secret and sensitive areas, etc...

Anyway, about search and seizure. How else could it/would it be done? I usually hear about U.S. ships doing the searching instead of being searched. I don't think I've ever seen how such an operation is really done.

Of course, you'd think a benevolent culture doing search and seizure operations would have some protocol, such as accessing a ship through standard boarding areas such as airlock or transporter rooms.

However, the Devorran's weren't painted as being benevolent.

I still want to see the initial boarding. How did Janeway/crew react when they were told they would have to submit to such violations?

Ruth -- 17 Dec 1998, 2:19 PM

Although I did wonder *why* Voyager was in this particular region --- were there warnings? were they surprised? how did they make the decision to help the refugees? --- from the point of view of the story, it wasn't all that important, IMHO. As you said in an earlier post, Shawnster, we've been dropping into VOY at midstory in some of this season's episodes, and I also think that is a good thing. Part of the problem VOY had last season was they tended to try and "do it all" in one 50 minute episode.

Vis A Vis is a perfect example. I think it could have been more than a decent episode if the first 15 minutes or so hadn't been devoted to showing that Paris was unhappy and introducing Steth. The best part of that episode was watching the alien as he inhabited Tom's body, and I think most of us agreed at the time that it was a darn shame we didn't get more Steth/Janeway. And then we got yet another abrupt Trek ending.

The core of "Counterpoint" was the dance between Kashek and Janeway, and like the music that played throughout, that dance wasn't rushed. I guess they could have used flashbacks to tell the backstory, but unlike in Timeless and Thirty Days, I don't think it would have done much to advance the story being told. And the way I figure it, we probably would all be blaming Janeway for making yet another questionable decision. This way we don't know and can hope for the best. ;-)

Shawnster, are you on vacation? You don't usually post during the day.

Leonie -- 17 Dec 1998, 2:34 PM

Ruth, I got the impression....

During one of the initial conversations between Krassik and Janeway that their space was vast and there seemed to be too long a delay in going around it. Then there were the Refugees that they picked up in the space (they should have been in it, why else would they want to get out of it) and since they were hiding Tuvok Vorik and the Betazoids and they may as well do others.

Since the worm hole was on the borders of Devoirdian(?, man, I am lousy with names of races this year) space and it seemed like it was on their way.

PegN -- 17 Dec 1998, 11:32 AM

Terry to O.Deus:
>You also wrote:
>Janeway's brilliant maneuver saves the telepaths and puts Voyager at the complete mercy of the Devorrans.

>>Wasn't that the whole point? I thought that you wanted to save the telepaths? And really, Voyager was always at the mercy of the Devorrans. Only the inspector's liking for Janeway kept them from getting imprisoned.

I believe that's why the inspector let Voyager go at the end, going against protocol that his whatever-his-name-was brought up, even though he said their failure would not look good on either resume. He had just enough feeling and respect for Janeway not to take Voyager as a trophy.

She be likin' him too. Apparently she hope he wouldn't be a bad guy, after all.

What would Chuck think. She's a passionate woman but never let him check her molars, much less inspect his. Good kiss, Katie Scarlett! 'Bout dang time Action Kate saw some action.

Jason -- 16 Dec 1998, 10:38 PM

If nothing else, it had the best music of any Star Trek episode. The constant use of classical music was a very interesting approach to this episode, as were the writer's own inclusion of "counterpoint" and "themes" and how they affected the episode on different levels throughout.

Mark Harelik was surprisingly good as Kashyk, and the relationship between he and Janeway was believable. She seems to be consistent in her types of men, like Mark, I think she connected with him on an intellectual level. (Although this raises questions in what she liked about Justin Tighe. Was it a case of opposites attracting? This seems out of character for Kathryn although of course that only took place in Mosaic and can't be considered too canonical.)

I had read somewhere that he'd be exposed at evil but the possibility never even really struck me until near to the time he proposed to leave Voyager. It was another appreciated twist to this episode. This episode had a lot of layers and ways in which it worked. This is what I expected from the Michael Taylor who wrote "Visitor", "Things Past" and "In the Pale Moonlight" (although with a lot of help.) I'm glad this one was not reflective of the Taylor who wrote "Once Upon a Time" or "resurrection". It seems when Taylor has serious emotional problems to work with in a character he excels. Otherwise he has difficulty.

I have a serious gripe with the use of Vorik as nothing more than a glorified extra. This time, he didn't even get a line. (Or if he did it wasn't one worth remembering.) Last time, in "Extreme Risk", he only saw the side and back of his head. This is getting ridiculous.

Mulgrew was great and looked good without her tunic on!

The rest of the cast? It's amazing how little they had to do and the ability of Mulgrew to carry a show as if she doesn't need the rest of them. This didn't drag at all despite the absence of the ensemble and Mulgrew is one of the few actors in Star Trek today who can make an hour go by just based on her own character and own performance.

Leonie -- 17 Dec 1998, 7:54 AM

Music..Whatever happened to diversity...

I know that I always pick this up because I hate classical music and yes I must be the only person in the entire western hemisphere that does who is over the age of twenty five.

It always floors me that when it comes to the culture of the Federation that it is always culture from Earth's Renaissance(?) period that comes to the fore front for aliens to find a common ground in and take an interest. What ever happened to the other 149 worlds of the Federation and their histories? What about their master pieces in literature and culture? Did the Bolians put out anything interesting in the how many thousands of years that they had a culture?

I think musically the only other culture represented was Klingon Opera and the only person who liked that was Worf. There was a Bajoran "Flute" type music represented on DSN once and of course Picard with the alien flute in "Inner Light" .But the last two are not members of the Federation. One can argue that maybe some human prefer their own cultural music's and rituals. But then that begs the question. Wasn't there anything culturally good to come out of the centuries after the 20th and before the 24th, something not from Europe or the Americas?

Star Trek writers, producers, directors etc. seems able to stretch their imagination in showing us what is possible in humanity being able to live in harmony with species who are different from us. It holds infinite diversity leading to infinite combinations. I know in order to hold our human attentions a lot of credit has to be given to our culture, but the over extension of that does damage to that philosophy. It shows that while IDIC may be the intent of TPTB, they are still 21st century men and women writing from their own Western Hemisphere world and unable to see beyond that, now matter how diverse the bridge crew of the particular starships are.

Shawnster -- 17 Dec 1998, 1:59 PM

It has to do with viewer identification...

No, we never see any representation of cultures from other members of the Federation. Just like we never see starships named after people or places in other cultures (with the exception of the USS Gorkon, named after the Klingon chancellor). They all are taken from earth.

The reason? Viewer identification. When the Federation ship is named Grissom, Gettysburg, Lexington, Sarajevo or Revere; we know where those names come from and no lines of script are necessary to explain it. On the other hand, if we saw a Federation starship named Surak, a line or two of dialogue would have to be thrown in (well, maybe not Surak since any TOS veteran can tell you who that was, but what about famous people from Vulcan or Betazed's past? Famous explorers, inventors, etc... People we've never heard of?) This would detract from the story time and would seem out of place since these two Starfleet officers should know the history behind such names.

The same goes for music. I read somewhere about all the classical music played on Star Trek. The writers feel that any time science fiction tries to invent "futuristic" music, it usually comes across as hokey. They reason that the classics will never die, people will still listen to them in the 24th century.

Of course, we have seen other musical tastes such as Riker's affection for jazz and Geordi's interest in Spanish guitar music.

Leonie -- 17 Dec 1998, 2:55 PM

True, the classics will never die... And maybe it will be hokey for them to invent new music, However I do thin a little more mention of something else, or even Eastern Culture being shown. Why can't one of the captain's be interested in something else besides the classics?

The reasoning that it would be too hard to work in the explanation in the scripts is also a little shaky. In "The Chase" (TNG) the artifact that the professor gave Picard was explained during parts of two scenes which took all of five minutes.

There is a big assumption here. The assumption is that all ST fans know what these names mean and their history. That may not be the case since ST is broadcast around the world, there are already some people who don't know. The premise for making all culture Eurocentric and Americentric (made up word) is already flawed in the light of this.

I know, the next ST Captain is an Elvis fan!!. After all, people in the international community may not know about the battle of Gettysburg, but they do know who is the King with Blue Suede Shoes

I can just see it now, Picard doing the "Elvis Maneuver" aka the Pelvic Thrust!!!

Cmdr. 8472 -- 16 Dec 1998, 10:48 PM

Counterpoint was an ok episode although I would rather have known a little about Janeway's plan. The ending reminded me of one of those TNG episodes where the bad guy gets caught and Picard gives them a lecture. Everyone lives happily ever after.

*L* I like the Trevis and Flotter (or however you spell it) stories. It's like Barney, only not as annoying. They kinda reminded me of Dudley the Dragon, only they're not annoying and they don't sing.

I didn't totally understand why it was that the AOTW hated telepaths. Is it just supposed to be one of those nonsense things that we don't understand?

Terry -- 16 Dec 1998, 11:24 PM

Re: Why did the AOTW hate telepaths? That was one point that I wish they had done into more. Krashik's statement about "trust being the foundation of all relationships" and "how telepaths don't trust, they know" (major paraphrasing) was
intriguing. But they never followed up.

I guess that that wasn't the main point of the episode. It seemed that they only threw out that point to make Krashik's motivation to have a semblance of some reason (however twisted) instead of being unreasoning hatred or obedience to authority. I would have welcomed Janeway attempting to argue the point with him.

One thing that offends me now but didn't at the time is this. Krashik says that his story about sending the little girl to her death was true. At the time, I was unsure whether he was lying or not about it in Praxis' presence. But since he turned out to be truly bad, his statement is very offensive. And robs the final J/AOTW scene of its affection and wistfulness and instead gives it a disturbing element.

Ruth -- 17 Dec 1998, 9:14 AM

Stepping up to the counter ...

Another winner for Season Five — while I have several small gripes, the overall the quality of "Counterpoint" was such, that I, can ignore them for the most part. That won't stop me from bringing them up here, however. ;-)

Likes

1) the story itself had a "Columbo-esque" feel to it, with both the guest villain and the detective, er, the Captain, playing off of one another, neither completely truthful with the other. The music added to it --- think of the Columbo episodes where the villain was a conductor or a musician capable of creating beautiful things, but due to vanity and ambition, was also capable of great destruction. Both Janeway and the alien were fascinating to watch, throughout. And, in keeping with the mystery style story, it was not resolved with a big space fight but with Janeway winning the game of wits.

2) Mulgrew was excellent. As a matter of fact, I got so absorbed in the story, I didn't realize until it was over that she really was the only main character with much to do in this episode. She carried it well, and I didn't even miss Tom. Well, not much .... But also, let me say, I thought both B'Elanna and Seven got off some good lines/reactions during the inspection scenes.

3) Once again this season, I got hooked during the opening scene – excellent lighting, editing, acting, and this continued throughout. I watched the credits with more interest than usual to see who was directing, and I noticed it was Ginny's old favorite Les Landau.

4) Kashek (I notice we're all spelling it differently), likewise, was good. I was prepared to be annoyed by him b/c I recognized him in the previews as being Helen's ex-fiancee from "Wings," (I think I'm right) but he was really good here. It helped that he was written as my favorite villain type – the attractive, sarcastic type. In fact, I liked him best in the opening and closing scenes when he was being slimily courteous. And, in the middle sections, you could see why someone like Janeway would be attracted to him, apart from the fact that her other dating options are severely limited.

5) They are continuing to inject humor into this year's episode. The good cop-bad cop scene was cute. Janeway's amusement over the other alien also reminded me of her reaction to Neelix when she first met him in "Caretaker."

Observation

This isn't a kudo or a gripe, but was anyone else startled in the scene where Tuvok and the refugees materialized for the first time? I know Kashek had only mentioned the four telepathic crew members, but when I saw those kids, I thought, "I KNEW everybody had to be procreating like rabbits below decks!" I was kind of disappointed when I found out they were guest rugrats instead of being crew member's children. :-)

Gripes –

1) Why did they have to hide Tuvok and Vorik at all? Would Kashek's people have any knowledge of Vulcans? Wouldn't it have been easier to erase any information about their telepathic abilities from the databases?

2) Janeway's laughing off of the Prime Directive was a major faux pas given last week's episode. I had images of her receiving thousands of irate letters from Tomaholics, all of whom had remained true to their love while he languished in jail last week. I guess he wasn't as good at "sort[ing] it out at the Board of Inquiry," as was Janeway.

Of course, she also said she was on a "first name" basis with the Board Admirals. Maybe if Tom had called the Captain, "Kathryn," "Kate," or "oooh, baby doll," a little more often, she would have gone a little easier on her fair haired boy. ;-)

3) I just had to suspend disbelief with the way that Janeway used Kashek as her investigative partner rather than Tuvok, Seven, or B'Elanna. I guess it was b/c he was supposed to know the territory better than they did. But, for example, I couldn't really see why she had Kashek sit in on her questioning of the other alien, apart from advancing the story, which it did. It a) continued the point-counterpoint theme, and b) it furthered the growing rapport between Janeway and Kasheck.

I'm confused about something. Did Kashek actually help her find the wormhole, or were others on the ship working with the data, while she was feeding him a dish of red herring? I need to go back and watch the end more carefully.

4) This isn't really a gripe, I guess, but after four years of handing over the ship and its databases to every AOTW she meets, she was cautious with this one? Although I guess she had reason to distrust this one from the start, didn't she?

I am truly sorry that we are going into reruns, given the quality of the shows thus far this season. I know the summer was long, but it has been nice to be able to watch this string of episodes.

Does anyone know how many episodes they are filming this season?

ande -- 17 Dec 1998, 9:38 AM

Ruth, I thought the same thing about the kiddies in the cargo bay. I was surprised at first, but then I realized the parents were not crew members.

I agree with Terry (?) who wondered were Naomi was. I for sure would have taken advantage of other kids on board.

I pretty much agree with everyone else about the episode. It was good and I liked it. I also wondered why Tuvok was on the bridge at the end and I too wondered if it was a mistake or done on purpose.

I don't usually like single character episodes as a rule, but the AOTW was so entertaining that I didn't really notice and since everyone was around and had one or two lines, it didn't really feel like a one character episode.

Good: Vorik makes an appearance. Lots of coffee drinking. Nice music.

Dislikes: They should not have aired this one after 30Days. I found Janeway's brush off of her PD infractions to be hypocritical and had Tom been present when she made them, down right mean. It really put Janeway in a bad light.

I was hoping for some J/P angst in the next few episodes. Since I think these were aired out of order, I'll wait and see if it shows up. I hope TPTB don't sweep it under the rug.

Mr. Mac. -- 17 Dec 1998, 11:33 AM

Hot Dang that was a good episode! Jules! Pat and I are home today. We just watched "Counterpoint." Jules, Pat almost started crying right away. It must be a Pavlov dog thing. She hears Mahler, she cries. Jules and I just had an EMail conversation about Mahler on Tuesday. I told her how we heard Mahler's First Symphony at Royal Albert Hall in London and Pat was in tears for most of it. It was like an out of body experience for her. So there we were watching Voyager and Mahler's First is playing in the background. For a minute we thought our radio was on.

This episode rocked! I knew the Inspector was playing a trick on Janeway because there is no way TPTB are going to make Janeway look like an idiot this season. I don't have time to hang around to write a review. I have to get busy archiving. A great ep.!

Hey Mike, what's this about Maureen? Maureen O'Hara? Was she the mother on Miracle on 34th Street? If so, you have good taste. I always loved that woman.

Shawnster -- 17 Dec 1998, 11:45 AM

Point: This was a really good episode. I liked the story and the FX dept. came through again. TPTB are developing a habit of dropping us into the middle of the story. That seems to be a better hook than any normal teaser.

Counterpoint: This episode was chock full (well, maybe not that full) of inconsistencies and technobabble snafus that it made my head spin.

Point: The famed jackboots. I always get a dark thrill out of watching militaristic, Orwellian jackbooted organizations.

Counterpoint: Janeway is actually submitting to these searches? That is insufferable. It was never adequately explained how Voyager got into this predicament. How much time would have been lost if they'd went around this people's space? Why was allowing your ship to be searched a better alternative?

Point: The scenes with Kashyyk beaming into the captain's ready room, sitting in her chair, playing her music, ordering her around went far in helping the feeling of violation and helplessness.

Counterpoint: How did Kashyyk know how to do this? How did his crew know how to access and operate Voyager's controls? Is there some galactic standard all ships must follow? Did Janeway and the crew teach the searchers when they were inspected the first time ("OK, pay attention. This is how you play the music, this is how you fire photon torpedoes, etc...."

Question: I got the impression Kashyyk downloaded Voyager's database and studied it at his leisure. Did anyone else get that same impression?

Point: Very intuitive way to smuggle the telepaths. Dematerializing them for the duration of the search. Good thing Lt. Barkley wasn't there, he would have had a fit (of course, he's not a telepath but I'm sure the script would have called for him to be with the refugees, had he been there)

Counterpoint: Janeway is as guilty as Tom. She violated the Prime Directive and put her ship and crew in jeopardy for no other reason than to sooth her own moral code. She should have left well enough alone. The Prime Directive is very clear on this matter. She had no business interfering. Of course, she gets away with it because she's the captain.

Question: How did this whole scenario come about? How did the refugees get to be on Voyager in the first place. Oh, they mentioned rescuing them from a freighter but how did they do that. Picture it. Voyager is flying through this territory. The rules about harboring telepaths has been made clear. Everyone who lives here knows the rules. Suddenly Voyager passes a freighter. Does the freighter contact Voyager and ask; "Uh, excuse me. We're harboring telepathic refugees. Could you help us?"

Nit: I thought, at first, they were keeping the refugees (and telepathic crewmembers) in the pattern buffers like Scotty did from TNG's "Relics." You could still make that claim. However, one bit of technobabble was completely inaccurate. Kashyyk stated that the patterns of the refugees could be found in the cargo bay. That's not how the transporter works. Once the dematerialization process is complete, the pattern of the individuals is in the pattern buffer, it doesn't stay in the room or area they were transported from.

That's how Scotty survived for over 70 years in "Relics." He deactivated the rematerialization sequence and locked the pattern buffer in a diagnostic loop. When he was dematerialized, his pattern went into the buffer and the buffer entered a diagnostic, self-check mode. When the Enterprise-D crew reactivated the rematerialization sequence, his pattern left the pattern buffer and was rematerialized on the pad.

Point: Janeway's kiss.

Counterpoint: That's all she got.

Point: This is one big territory they're going through. Nice to see national groups larger than a planet or two in the Delta Quadrant.

Counterpoint: The writers again mess up on distance and speed. The nebula was 2.3 light years away and it would take 2 days to get there. I looked that up. Traveling 1 light year a day is roughly warp 7. That's OK with me, but, later the wormhole was going to appear in 3 days and they were 6 light years away from it. Did they increase speed to get there? No one ever gave that command but they must have if they hoped to get there in that time.

Nit: Here we have this nice, big national entity. I bet this is the last big government we see for a while. Why can't the Delta Quadrant be like the Alpha Quadrant. Here if you started from the left you would have a nice journey through Cardassian space (not that we know how big that is, another Trek mystery), then you would spend a long journey through the Federation, then perhaps pass by the Tholian Annex, then have to cross either Klingon or Romulan space, then through Breen territory (size unknown) before finally entering the uncharted reaches of the Beta Quadrant. My point? National group after national group. Is the rest of the galaxy set up like that? No (at least, not until we met the Dominion).

Point: Coffee. Coffee played a large part in decorating this episode.

Counterpoint: Did Janeway ever take a sip?

Point: The FX were great. I was impressed with the shuttlebay scene. That was entirely CGI.

Counterpoint: I could tell it was CGI.

Point: I think Kashyyk kept his part of the bargain. He explained to Janeway that the only way the refugees could make it to the wormhole and the only way Voyager could survive is if he went back to his people. He went back, the shuttles made it and Voyager was allowed to go on her way.

Counterpoint: Janeway acted like Kashyyk didn't hold up his end of the deal. Excuse me?

Point: The shuttles made it. I loved the double cross, for lack of a better term. "Oh, we normally keep our food supplies dematerialized. It saves space."

Counterpoint: What about Tuvok, Vorik and the rest of Voyager's telepathic crew? I assume they were with the refugees in the shuttles, since the searchers found no telepaths on board Voyager. Is Voyager to rezendevous with the shuttles later? Surely Voyager didn't give those shuttles to the refugees.

Question: Where did those two shuttles come from? I thought Voyager was out.

47 sighting: 2.36 light years. 3+1=4, 6+1=7

Still, great episode. This season has started off with a bang.

Andy -- 17 Dec 1998, 12:16 PM

I thought this was a very good episode, maybe the best this year. I haven't read any other posts yet, but what struck me more than anything was the very crisp writing. Some of the exchanges between Janeway and the alien commander were particularly sharp. I always enjoy rapid-fire give and take and I'll even go so far as to compliment Mulgrew for her acting. It takes some talent to pull off this sort of banter and it came across quite well. I've slammed her enough times so it's only fair that I recognize it when she does something well.

I often find that less is more. By current standards, this episode was pretty low key. No huge battles, no failing shields, phaser fire-fights, etc., but the tension was never-the-less very tangible and exciting. I would have been happy to have had a little less technobabble, but that is a minor point.

I also felt the alien commander was well-acted. I've seen enough television that I can normally smell a rat in a story pretty quickly, but this guy had me convinced that he was genuinely defecting to Voyager.

Unlike many people, I enjoyed many of the early episodes (seasons one and two) of TNG which relied on means other than violent confrontation to create tension. While last-night's episode had a militaristic subtext, the real story was essentially a war of wills between Janeway and the Inspector. I might not want to watch an episode like this every week but I thoroughly enjoyed it last night.

Diane -- 17 Dec 1998, 2:04 PM

Janeway uses a Countermeasure in Counterpoint . At the end of the show, I could only think, this woman plays pincholle and she plays it good. She really know how to hold the Ace of Trump and slam it on the table.

Wonderful episode! When the show was over my hubby, Gordy, announced "What a Great Episode." That's when my feelings were confirmed. This was one of the best this season, in fact, the episodes just seem to be getting better, one right after the other.

Mulgrew was at her peak: Sexy, tempting, commanding, smart, devious, passionate, and in charge of her character. Can't ask more from an actor.

The Guest star who played the AOW gets kudos. He almost had me fooled, but throughout the episode, I knew he was up to something.

Someone, was it Ruth, mentioned that this was like Columbo, I wonder if Mulgrew had any input into this episode, being she was Mrs. Columbo.

And lets see, my other Random Thoughts: I enjoyed the discussion of the Prime Directive, gosh everyone is discussing the PD these days. And, Did she violate the Prime Directive to immediately save the refugees from the Detention Camps? Unlike Paris, where there was no immediate (today) threat, Janeway was acting to save these people from immediate death. I thought of Shindler's List.

And, BTW, what is it with Trek lately, and its fascination with the Nazis? Last year and this year, these themes run through a lot of the episodes.

Again this was a really great episode, like Andy said, Less is More! One does not need all the hype of CGI and space battles to have a good episode. If the story is great and the acting is great, that's all that's needed. I see this all the time at The Shakespeare Theatre (where I volunteer). We have some pretty great actors, very little staging, and wonderful productions. That's what we had with this episode, a great and interesting story, great actors, and little staging. Well done Braga and company.

Shawnster -- 17 Dec 1998, 2:30 PM

About Kashyyk, was he "evil?" Everyone here is of the mind that Kashyyk betrayed Janeway and really was a nefarious, evil character with a coal black stone where his heart should be.

Everyone except me.

Kashyyk stated that the only way Voyager could survive and the refugees escape is if he went back and took over command of the searches. That's exactly what happened.

Let's say to prove his sincerity, he stayed on Voyager. When the ship is ceased, how do you explain his presence? Would he have had to hide in the transporter buffer with the rest of the refugees? How would you explain the Devorran shuttle in the shuttlebay?

What kind of search tactics would Praxis have done had he conducted the searches? He seemed to be the more official, by the book officer. It seemed the only restraint he had was Kashyyk, his commanding officer. Take Kashyyk out and who know what might happen.

Why go through this whole charade if Kashyyk was truly evil? Just the thrill of breaking Janeway's trust? Kashyyk knew about the refugees the whole time. He could have busted them at any moment. As for finding the wormhole, well, they knew of its existence for a long time. Why would there be a sudden rush to find it now? If the Devorran government couldn't find the wormhole easily, neither could any escaping refugees. (By the way, how long has this telepathic detention been in existence? I'm surprised there are any telepaths left to hunt down).

So, Kashyyk comes aboard Voyager and seeks asylum. He's been bothered by sending a little girl to detention, possibly to her death. He really wants to help these refugees escape, perhaps as a penance.

When they are detected, Kashyyk realizes he has to return, it's the only way to guarantee the safety of the refugees. He leads the search. He could have immediately gone to the buffer and rematerialized the food, I mean the refugees, but he didn't. He played the game until he was sure they found the wormhole.

When Janeway told him where the wormhole was, he sent a torpedo to open it and planned to send another to collapse it. Was there a guarantee that the second torpedo would collapse it? All we have is Kashyyk's word. Would this collapse the wormhole permanently? This wormhole has been here a long time and isn't a stable opening anyway. Why would one photon torpedo blast collapse it?

Kashyyk didn't find the wormhole and realized the shuttles were escaping using refractive shielding. Oh, like that wouldn't have come to his mind, being a seasoned officer. He never even gave the command to pursue the ships, fire on them, etc...

After the ships are gone, he lets Voyager go. That ship should have been destroyed on the spot (as O.Deus stated). Instead he allows it to leave. He tells Praxis this isn't going to be mentioned. Instead we'll say we didn't find any telepaths. That still doesn't account for the deviation from their route. Voyager could have been seized for that offense. Instead they were let go.

After allowing them to go on their way, Kashyyk was in no position to join them. What was he supposed to do, tell Praxis; "Oh, you take the ships on ahead, I'm going to stay on Voyager." Yeah, right.

No, I think Kashyyk was true to his word and intentionally helped those refugees escape.

Kashyyk, when spelled this way, refers to the Wookie homeworld, Chewbacca's home. Was this an homage to Star Wars?

Fliteman -- 17 Dec 1998, 3:30 PM

I think the refugees were secondary...

They were simply a tool Kashyk was using to get Janeway to discover where the wormhole was. For whatever reason, I think the wormhole was his primary goal, and the fugitives could live or die for all he cared. To find the wormhole, AND capture an alien ship illegally transporting telepaths would have been a superb ending for the bad guy in charge, and Janeway instead, denies both... How embarrassing! I'm thinking the fugitives were either set up FOR Voyager to rescue, or perhaps they were rescued for reals - AND Kashyk saw an opportunity to use Voyager in finding the wormhole.

BTW... I would EXPECT Voyager, upon entering a new territory, to be boarded & searched (forcefully or friendly) by the ships patrolling that territory. While you can be friendly, it NEVER pays to be foolhardy; and since no one's HEARD of the Federation until Voyager enters their territory, I think it would pay the AOTW to be cautious, until their sure of the capabilities of the Voyager.

I'm counting this as TWO shuttles gonzo... I didn't see/hear any 47's (I was drawn into the story; sorry) and I saw her WITH coffee, but did we see any sips...? I liked the whole story, but the ending was a little too quick & convenient....

MEG -- 17 Dec 1998, 3:46 PM

My impression of that final scene, Carol. . .was that it was meant to convey Janeway's deep loneliness. It seemed significant to me that, with the departure of the Devorans, she's alone on the bridge. Perhaps having her sit in Chakotay's chair was meant to be ironic; after all, he's the one who is forever reminding her that she isn't alone. But from her point of view, she IS alone, isolated by her position -- and her interaction with Whats-His-Face was, I think, the first time since "Resolutions" that we've seen her relate to ANYONE as anything other than the Captain. It's the loss of that aspect of herself that she's mourning, or at least pondering, in that final scene, IMO. And while I'd have enjoyed a snappy comeback to "The bridge is yours" as much as the next viewer, it would have somewhat interfered with the wistful mood. At that point I'm not sure how thrilled she was to have the bridge, and the isolation it represents, back again.

And, picking up on another point, if Shawn is right in his analysis that Whats-His-Face (how DO you spell/pronounce his name, anyway?) isn't completely evil, does that tend to make him the Schindler figure in the Nazi comparison? That does put an interesting spin on the story!

Terry -- 17 Dec 1998, 7:40 PM

Sorry, Shawn, I think Kashyyk was bad. I seriously entertained your idea until the final scene. Once Praxis left Kashyyk and Janeway alone on the bridge, Kashyyk would have let us and/or Janeway know if he was really helping her. If not in
words, then just by a look or facial expression. But he didn't. And Janeway didn't give us a clue that she knew or suspected it. IMHO, there wasn't even any ambiguity there.

As he said himself, he was tempted to help her but he didn't. Frankly, I don't believe that there is any possibility that he helped the refugees escape. What I do believe is that he let Voyager go free more because he liked Janeway than to save himself embarassment. But that favoritism wouldn't have extended to saving the wormhole or letting the refugees go, IMHO.

Ruth -- 18 Dec 1998, 8:54 AM

One Last Kiss. I realized last night when I rewatched "Counterpoint" that we haven't dissected "the kiss" with our usual
diligence on a matter of such weighty importance. I mean, it's Katie's first in quite a while, so it is pretty dang important. (And as always, isn't it lucky that French Kissing transcends species and quadrants?)

Since Mike D. hasn't shown up to give the definitive ranking of the J/AOTW kiss on the "John Wayne-Maureen O'Hara Hubba Hubba Scale," I thought I'd ask how you guys would rate the kiss on a 1-10 scale.

I put it at an 8. I marked it down b/c it wasn't between a couple I'd been waiting to see in action for a while (like J/C). I marked it up b/c of the way it was acted out and filmed. I liked the awkwardness and tentative nature of Kashyk's first strike, and then the way Kathryn responded. The slow pan of the camera was also nice, and I thought the way he kissed her fingers was pretty darn sexy.

All in all, very romantic, IMHO. :-)

Mike -- 18 Dec 1998, 4:11 PM

Ruth, here's my rating on the kiss...I give it a 6 on the O'Hara/Wayne kiss scale :^). My dislike of the guy Katie kissed probably knocked it down a point or two in the rating. Katie was in fine form (hubba, hubba) the guy was the handicap. His voice and mannerisms grated on my nerves big time. I didn't like him even when he was supposed to be charming. I hated seeing him be the one to finally kiss Kate. As Mrs. Mac put it, it was "a Judas Kiss". I like that description for the kiss. I did notice something of a pattern here as far as my favorite kisses go(it moved this kiss up a notch). It seems that when the women takes the initiative in the kiss, I rate it a lot higher than when it's just the guy kissing the woman. My favorite kiss from 'The Quiet Man' and this kiss had that in common. I like to see the women abandon all inhibitions in the way they usually show a man.

Maureen O'Hara still holds the title for now :^).

Mrs. Mac -- 20 Dec 1998, 8:52 AM

Aawk! Jim! How I disagree!

Jim wrote in his (usual) wonderful review: Kashyk matched her cup for cup at the cappuccino machine and expressed fondness for the same music. (But tell me-how many of you really pictured Janeway as the Mahler/Tchaikovsky type? For some reason, I always pictured her having a real fondness for Sousa, Gilbert and Sullivan, etc.)

Janeway? Gilbert and Sullivan? Neelix maybe!

Janeway is complex and difficult to pin down. She is every bit Mahler, Strauss (somewhat) and Bruckner. I need to watch this episode again to hear the music but I had some thoughts on this particular selection thanks to you because you jogged my memory. Once Janeway had trumped Kashyk she requestd Mahler's First Symphony, 2nd movement. Originally, Mahler removed his 2nd movement, Blumine (something about flowers) because he felt it didn't fit the rest of the piece. I believe it was played as an independent piece but don't quote me. Therefore, the second movement that Janeway actually selected was the scherzo, which is aptly called, Under Full Sail. Appropriate, don't you agree?

Deborah47 -- 13 Apr 1999, 7:41 PM

I know "you guys" have beat Counterpoint to death the first time it came out, so I won't even attempt significant comments on it. That doesn't mean I won't attempt Insignificant ones!

For instance, Just What do you think Kashyck was referring to when he suggested he'd like to try KJ's replicator!

And what do you think is going through the ensgns mind (Male, standing behind KJ during said replicator conversation? ("Geezzz, she isn't going to fall for that, is she? Oh mannnn!"

I still have a question (serious) that hasn't been answered re: Counterpoint. Where were Tuvok and Vorick and the other crewmembers at the end of the show? Last year I had convinced myself that they were on the second shuttle with the other telepaths. I expected the next ep would show us how Voyager caught up with them (and recovered TWO of the shuttles) but alas, it was not to be. D47

Shawnster -- 13 Apr 1999, 7:46 PM

I'd assumed that Vorik and Tuvok...were piloting the shuttles with the escaping telepaths. After all, why would Voyger give away two much needed shuttles. LOL!

Then, during the review. Someone said they saw Tuvok on the bridge during the final inspection. Sigh. Just chalk it up to TPTB oversights.

Roxanne -- 14 Apr 1999, 12:55 AM

Tuvok was on the bridge during the final inspection.

However, I thought that since Kashyk knew about him, whether he betrayed them or not, it didn't matter where he was. I assumed that all the crew (except 7 who has to have the shots to satisfy the YAM's) had been either locked down in quarters or secured in the brig and that was where Vorik and Tuvok were also.

Jules -- 14 Apr 1999, 4:27 AM

Maybe it's part of a cleverly fiendish plan......to subtly phase out the box-like type 8 shuttles, and replace them with a few more of the warp 9.99999 capable (or warp 10 if the Doc's monitoring your DNA), sleek and rather sportier looking type 9 shuttles, and a small fleet of Delta Flyers.

If Voyager has decided to upgrade its shuttles, it might not mind so much letting a few of the older, slower ones go. So, they give a couple of type 8's away to the telepaths in "Counterpoint", sacrifice one to the Borg in "Dark Frontier", and let Seven pop across to the think tank in one as well (just in case they can't get it back).

We didn't see the shuttle Seven used at all, and I can't remember offhand whether we saw the exteriors of the shuttles in "Counterpoint" either. But certainly it's true that - with the notable exception of the Cochrane in "Day of Honor" - most of the destroyed or lost shuttles have been type 8's and therefore old stock. I can't help thinking that there's a deliberate policy in there somewhere. Even if it's on the part of TPTB rather than the Voyager crew. :-)

So, all they need to do is watch Tom like a hawk to ensure that he doesn't go re-introducing dynametric tail fins to the rest of the Flyer fleet when they build it... :-)

TKS -- 14 Apr 1999, 5:27 AM

We definately need Tuvok to keep Tom in line.

We can't have our beloved, over emotional Tom, do something so impractical as adding dynametric tail fins. We need Tuvok to squash creativity. Tuvok the creator of that wonderful program that everyone enjoyed in Worstcase Scenerio.

Jules -- 14 Apr 1999, 7:17 AM

Agreed.

Although - hindsight being a wonderful thing - it would seem that perhaps our darling Tom's creativity hasn't been stifled quite as much as we might previously have imagined.

At least, in "Latent Image", it was revealed that the (vastly overworked) shuttle maintenance squad were hard at work in the bowels of the ship doing modifications to some of the existing shuttles, to make them more "cool". Ensign Jetal confirmed the Doctor's suspicions that this meant that Tom was involved in the project.

Obviously the Delta Flyer wasn't the first time Janeway's indulged Tom's creative urges where shuttlecraft were concerned. There's also the "Threshold" warp 10 project, after all...

But since most of his efforts seem to concentrate on making shuttles faster, cooler, and meaner looking, Tuvok's probably right to be suspicious that his ultimate aim is to design himself a sports shuttle.

(Incidentally, this particular conversation - and the sleevenotes of the "Extreme Risk" video - have reminded me that, whatever rank he happens to hold when Voyager finally gets home, Tom Paris has made a mark on Starfleet history that both he and they can be proud of. He made the first ever warp 10 flight. And he designed a pretty nifty little shuttlecraft that, in an alternate timeline at least, Starfleet obviously thought highly enough of that it was still in service 15 years later. Maybe he'll never make Captain, but he's going to get his name included in one or more of the courses on the Academy curriculum at some point. And wouldn't it be amusing if his father had to teach one of them?)

TKS -- 14 Apr 1999, 2:42 PM

Oh, I can see it now, Design Engineering.

Instructor: Admiral Owen Paris.

I can see his toes curling now, not to mention the overwhelming red flush coming over his features.

That is what I call justice.

Shawnster -- 14 Apr 1999, 1:18 PM

Toni Toni Toni

Glad to see you. Your hair looks a little wind-swept but otherwise you seem to be fine.

Next time, don't go play Dorothy without our permission

Shawnster -- 14 Apr 1999, 1:41 PM

Watch the shuttles fly by...

If I remember right, we did see the shuttles exterior, after it was revealed they were fleeing. Cant remember if it was before or after they tried to collapse the "wormhole" though.

Nice theory Jules. You just might have stumbled upon the master plan. How to improve and upgrade Voyager and still be in the DQ. The cat is out of the bag now.

Maybe a fleet of Delta Flyers would be a good idea. The one we have can take a beating and still be around 15 years later...

Roxanne -- 14 Apr 1999, 7:12 PM

Then they'd have to rename it.

Call it "Timex." It takes a lickin' and keeps on tickin'.

Sorry. I'm giddy. Just finished my business with Uncle Sam today.

Terry -- 15 Apr 1999, 6:40 PM

Yeah, I love this episode, too. One of my favorites for this season and for Janeway. I really loved the ending. It showed that Kashyk and Janeway had some genuine feelings for each other. And that he wasn't a stereotypical villain.

IMHO, he also demonstates that most evil acts are performed by people with shades of grey in their character, not pure black. (The scary thing is not that human monsters exist but that many monstrous acts can and are performed by basically normal people.) Kashyk was arguably an admirable person in areas where his prejudice against telepaths didn't come into play.

Tuvok was clearly shown as being on the bridge during the final Devore inspection. I guess that Janeway figured if Kashyk was honest, he would cover for Tuvok. And if he wasn't, they were all in the same trouble for harboring telepaths.

Deborah47 -- 16 Apr 1999, 12:33 AM

Okay, the simple(?) stuff first.

1) Is the fourth telepath dead too? (can't believe I missed the Suder referance the first time)

2) How come those Machines Prax's men used, couldn't tell Tuvok and Vorick (can't Believe I missed seeing Tuvok on the bridge the first time) were telepaths?

3) If the survey crew was only playing around with the voy crew, while Kashyck was ferreting info out of KJ in that last visit. Then how come when Prax tried to impound the ship & crew he was using the excuse that Voy was an accessory to telepath flight. He had two Star Fleet telepaths in his mits! (Ginny, ain't that enough for a conviction in a 24th century police state?)

Okay, dumb questions out of the way. Regular observations to follow. And never fear, I LIKED this episode!

Shuttle comment to Jules, they lost 2 of the "cool" ones. So sorry.

To T'Gin, LOL re your comment on the ensign trying to get his bet in on the Captain's "pool". Do you REALIZE that in the past 5 years we've seen this woman kiss a flesh & blood guy once (counterpoint) come close once (Prime Factors - and I submit that is why Harry will NEVER get promoted), Kiss Mark in an alien induced dream (Persistence of vision-?-), and kiss a hologram (same). I think RATHER than a pool on when she gets "anywhere with anyone", they should have a pool predicting when she's going to explode.

To Terry, I loved the fact that despite the grey shades, they kept him evil enough to refuse her offer of a new life without his odious prejudices. I,romantic that I am, expected Kashyck to turn to KJ in his final scene and say," How'd you like my performance? They'll believe this scenario, of you outfoxing me and my pride letting you go more than anything else. But to insure they do, I must stay..." What a bittersweet ending, what sacrifice, what a load of Targ manure! He was Bad, and she knew it and she beat the AOTW without even breaking a sweat. Gotta love my Janeway! D47

Deborah47 -- 16 Apr 1999, 1:21 AM

A new game. I'll start with Counterpoint.

What scene, that was never filmed, in this or any other season would you most like to see?

Me? I'd LOVE to have been the fly on the wall during the staff meeting between KJ and her senior staff re: explaining her plan to outfox Kashyck.

Harry: But Captain, how are you going to convince him that you completely trust him?

KJ: Why, ensign, like Tom always says "I'll just have to uncork my pheromones".

Chakotay: (with a touch of a patronizing grin) Captain, aren't you being a little simplistic? Surely you don't think that an undercover agent could be susceptible to... ah...be willing to ...errr..."

KJ: (smiling in a very knowing way) Let me just say Chakotay, Ready,,,willing and ab...

B'Elanna: (Finally wakes up and JUMPS into the conversation) Hey, WAIT a MINUTE, Just When did Tom tell you to uncork your pheromones?! And where the he11 was I?

Harry: (his face reveals a thought that never crossed his mind in 5 years.)

Seven: Is something the matter ensign, you look positively ill.

Harry: (turning green at the idea that MAMA KJ actually engages in certain activities, just gurgles)

Chakotay: (Realizing his secret relationship with KJ was now just a "boat that's dun sailed", also gurgles)

Tom: (Seeing two comrades going down in flames, turns to KJ and asks) Why Kashyck? What about me? Why don't I have money on "today" in that damn pool Ayala is running!

Tuvok: (Wise beyond his unemotional Vulcan years) Perhaps we should leave certain of the details of the Captain's plan to the captain.

Neelix: I dunno Mr Vulcan. I know more details on this particular plan would DEFINATELY raise the morale of at least the female half of the crew!

The Doc: That may be so Mr Neelix, (Doc moves around the room with hyposprays of relief for the men of Voyager) but I doubt I have enough sedatives for the whole crew, and we can't take the time to put them all in a COLD sonic shower! (Sorry, got a little carried away D47)

Ruth -- 16 Apr 1999, 9:50 AM

LOL, Deb 47! I'll have to think about this.

Actually, it is also something we can do this summer during re-runs. Last year we did some "character reclamation projects" -- what could be done to improve certain characters? We also did something along the line of this where we re-wrote VOY episodes that we felt desperately needed our genius to move them from the mediocre to the sublime.

Roxanne -- 16 Apr 1999, 1:34 AM

Question #1. When the telepaths are first brought out of transporter suspension, there are 3 star fleet uniforms. The other one besides Tuvok and Vorik is a blue shirt.

Question #2. They probably could, but it really didn't matter much as they were going to get the telepaths, Voyager's crew for smuggling them and Voyager as well.

Question #3. I don't know.

I like this Janeway also, Deborah47. She's quick, witty, romantic, (she can bring home the bacon, fry it up in a pan and never ever let you forget you're a man.....)

Deborah47 -- 16 Apr 1999, 1:41 AM

RE: Roxanne's bacon

So Roxanne, does that mean the only way we can resuscitate the "Chakotay" character is to get KJ and him CLOSER!? (I can hear Jules screaming across the pond!) Ouch. I better go to bed before she wakes up and logs on!

Jules -- 16 Apr 1999, 8:11 AM

Hey, I don't object to J/C.

Each to their own, after all. I may happen to think that it's a hopeless quest, because it always looked to me as if it was one sided even before they killed it and moved the characters on, but does that necessarily matter? Chakotay being besotted while Janeway just wants to remain his friend is the kind of unrequited love story that is often more interesting in its tragedy than the ones that do work out.

Sniff. Pass me another hankie, somebody.

Of course the reasons why Janeway isn't interested are another matter entirely. :-)

Roxanne -- 16 Apr 1999, 1:51 PM

Don't know, Deb.

He's doing much better this season. Maybe Janeway threatened him with a return of Riley if he didn't straighten up. He does make good eye candy, tho.

Terry -- 16 Apr 1999, 7:37 AM

That's exactly how I felt about the ending, Deb47.

I knew something was up but wasn't sure whether he would betray Janeway or just pretend to betray Janeway. In fact, I wasn't sure until the final scene with those two alone on the bridge. This was one show which would have been completely ruined for me if spoilers had revealed the ending.

I disagree with those who wanted Janeway to gloat over her victory to Kashyk's face (as she did to Kouros in Think Tank). That would be rather petty of her. Instead, you see that she was sad that she couldn't save Kashyk from himself. (And of course, she sees a chance for some sex evaporating.)

Jules -- 16 Apr 1999, 8:01 AM

Roxanne's answered the question, but here's a little more:

1: Telepath number #4 really should have been Kes. But as it was, just another blueshirt.

#2: Maybe the Devore's machines weren't able to fully detect telepaths from races unfamiliar to them? Vulcan telepathy requires touch to strengthen the link in most circumstances, after all... maybe it doesn't give off strong enough signals for their meters?

#3: Prax wasn't terribly bright, just dogged and persistent in carrying out his orders. I'm sure that once Kashyk emerged from his undercover role fully to start bossing him around, they'd have got all the charges straight and not missed any.

Thanks for checking the shuttle types for me, BTW! Now I needn't. Of course I will, but I'm short on time right now. And I don't really need to know until I'm in a position to grab a vidcap of them off screen, which has to wait for the release of the video.

And yes, I liked the ending too. Somehow there was just so much more depth to the episode that he could be charming, tempting, and still a villain who saw no particular need to redeem himself. I can imagine him rejecting the Devore approach to telepaths on a more permanent basis than this... if it was expedient enough. But I wouldn't expect him to do it out of any kind of moral conviction, just because it suited his purposes.