Thirty Days

Review Boy (JW) -- 9 Dec 1998, 9:02 PM

"30 Days" - what, no comments?

Gee, it's almost 10pm eastern time--only the Mountain states and west coast haven't seen the episode yet. What's the deal? How will I know what to write this weekend? :)

I'll see it in a couple hours, but I kinda look forward to the sneak previews.

Looking forward to hearing what ya'all have to say, --Jim

Trisha -- 9 Dec 1998, 9:23 PM

Am I missing something? It occurred to me during tonight's episode that I didn't notice any blatant 47's... also is last week's "Nothing Human". Where did I miss them??

:) Trisha

PS: Boy, oh boy, did Tommy's eyes ever look BLUE tonight. Still, nothing can beat those dark brown eyes on Chakotay. Need I mention the dimples???

Michelle -- 10 Dec 1998, 7:15 AM

Thirty Days Have September . . .Excellent! Very Nicely Done!! Wow!!!

Gotta say . . . Loved it, loved it, loved it. And this is a Non-Tomaholic talking too. The scenes between Paris and Janeway . . . I know Ginny is just itchin' to go with those!

I really believed that Janeway would have done the Delta Flyer in. You could see how badly she felt about taking Tom's rank, how disappointed she was in his choices. BTW, Janeway was right! Voyager gave the people what they asked for - Help. It was up to them to do what they wanted with the information.

The backstory of Captain Proton fit nicely as a childhood fantasy for Tom. His interest in the 19th-20th centuries is endearing. The Delaney sisters were . . . well, very Delaney!! I can see a whole new YAM following there! And Harry was very cute in his "longing" for the elusive Meagan. At least he's moving on from Seven . . . well for now anyway.

I can't wait to read all of ya'lls comments. You people always say what I want to but can't figure out how.

And did you see those previews??? Finally, Janeway gettin' a little action. Maybe this will show her what she's been missing (right there on her left). I know, I know . . . I can't help it. I'm a real J-C'er.

Terry -- 9 Dec 1998, 9:53 PM

Waterboy's blue-grey eyes and 47s. Since this was major Paris episode with plenty of close-ups, I could help but check out RDM's eyes. In a close-up in an early brig scene, I thought "Damn, those eyes are pure blue! Ginny is wrong!" But later in another close-up, I thought, "No! Grey without a trace of blue! Ginny is right!" My conclusion: RDM's eyes are either blue or grey. Or vice versa.

Trish, the local sleezeocrat whined about having to bring the big, bad news to 47 independent sovereigns (or something like that).

Different, at times intriguing, but down deep, a real bummer.

Tom Paris goes through all that struggle and for what, failure and a demotion. Man, was I let down by that ending! Hey, writers, if you're going to make Tom Paris defy Janeway and break all the rules in the book and suffer the consequences, at least make him succeed at his crime! And we don't even get to know what happened to that Riga guy or his world.

Other bad moments:

• Doesn't Tom's fascination with the ocean come out of the blue? (No pun intended.) Okay, he mentioned the Titanic once but it's hardly a 19th century sailing ship.
• They didn't make me believe why Tom would become so passionate about saving this world. It didn't seem to be about the people, just the Waterworld. (Uh ho, will Review Boy have fun with that one! Costner, ahoy!)
• Janeway is pretty damn eager to blow Paris out of the water, isn't she? And nobody but Harry seemed to have any problem with it.
• The Doc can be a real @sshole, can't he? Paris has been demoted, put in the brig, and the Doc can't resist sticking a knife in his back and twisting. "Culhane was praised by the Captain; he may be promoted to Chief Conn Officer."
• Stupid ending. They can barely target the Flyer at the depth but they can hit a missile fired after their photon torpedo was launched. More like technobull.
• Stupid ending. Was there a point to having Tom fail to blow up the oxygen generators except to make his look and feel even worse?

Okay, there were a few good moments.

• The Delaney sisters were interesting. And Kim liking Megan instead of Jenny when Tom can't even tell them apart was funny. And the episode looked good.
• Interesting camera angles and special effects.
• I wasn't too impressed with either the plot or McNeill's acting in this episode. For a guy that has just taken some serious actions, he still is way too whiny. Asking for pizza and use of the holodeck. C'mon, Tom, be a man!
• The episode was something of a mess until Harry visited Tom in the brig. That scene, Tom's talk with B'Elanna, and his decision to act things into his own hands was well done and made the ep start to come together. Until the stupid ending.
• Frankly, I wasn't too impressed with McNeill's ability to handle the lead. OTOH, I can't believe this confused episode was directed by Rick Kolbe and written by Ken Biller. What were those two thinking?

D'Alaire -- 9 Dec 1998, 9:57 PM

Terry commented:
>Tom Paris goes through all that struggle and for what, failure and a demotion. Man, was I let down by that ending!

Oooh! You beat me to one of my nits! Grrr--what'd I say about the dark...moody side?

> Doesn't Tom's fascination with the ocean come out of the blue?

There's #2.

> (Uh ho, will Review Boy have fun with that one! Costner, ahoy!)

Snort! No doubt!

> Janeway is pretty damn eager to blow Paris out of the water, isn't she? And nobody but Harry seemed to have any problem with it.

There's #3--where WAS everyone else? Janeway's been in a bad mood a while, but Chuck? Is he still mad about last week?

> The Doc can be a real @sshole, can't he? Paris has been demoted, put in the brig, and the Doc can't resist sticking a knife in his back and twisting.

Must have also held onto stuff from last week -- that's NIT #1!!! Grrrrrr!!!! RB-- You remember LAST time this happened, da? You know where I'm at now!

> Was there a point to having Tom fail to blow up the oxygen generators except to make his look and feel even worse?

Feel worse, yes, but look worse--only that he did it all to no avail. Janeway negated his actions and beliefs--like last week with B'Elanna. Is this becoming a theme on the show for her? Hmmm.

But wasn't there some benefit for Tom's taking control of his own beliefs and actions and accepting them? I know all the shipwide repercussions, but for Tom personally, it helped him find a side of himself that'd been left undeveloped.

But yes, I'm growling about the failure, too. I almost couldn't believe it.

Terry -- 9 Dec 1998, 10:18 PM

Am I so shallow as to want a happy ending?

Hell, yes, I am. Well, if you can call being demoted, put in brig for 30 days, and losing the approval of the person you respect most, and blowing a perfect four 1/2 year record of being the only person not to betray Janeway a happy ending. Which I would have.

This episode has its good and bad elements. But I'm honest enough with myself to know that I would have liked it if Paris had succeeded in saving the Waterworld despite itself. I was disappointed to see that he wasn't smart enough to figure out a way outfox Janeway when he had the advantage of surprise and lead preparation time.

Oh well, this is one of those episodes that I'll have to watch again before determining whether I really like it or not.

BTW, people in the past wondered if Voyager would end up with 150 admirals by the time it got back home. With Braga in charge, it's more like 150 ensigns!

Hey, Roxanne, I got a suggestion for the song of the week. It's gotta be Thirty Days in the Hole!

Darn, why didn't I think of that for my post title!

D'Alaire -- 9 Dec 1998, 10:22 PM

You forget how much I prefer them!

I guess having to shove ambivalence down my throat week after week might have gotten to me. No, I would have much rather he succeeded. But he grew anyway. So it wasn't a total loss.

Diane -- 9 Dec 1998, 10:24 PM

But Terry, It was a happy ending. Tom came to terms with his father, himself, and the waterworld was probably saved. With the evacuation, probably enough stink was caused to bring notice to the cause, and the best part, no one got killed.

Look at the story again. It is one of those you may have to see 2 or 3 times. I am sure Ginny is on her third viewing right now, but that's for other reasons.

BTW, can you tell I loved the episode? But then, I go for those kind of stories.

Maureen -- 9 Dec 1998, 11:07 PM

Yeah--what she said. Tom didn't run away. Not from B'Elanna when she wanted to talk seriously to him. And not from what he did.

He acted on his beliefs knowing what the consequences would be. And even if he wasn't exactly Mr. Dignity in the brig, he got through it--and with a little help from a friend--faced down one of his demons.

Okay, it's not like he could just leave the ship, but you also know he's going to be able to go back on duty and not be a total foul-up to cover his vulnerability. He's not going to avoid B'Elanna or his friends, even though he's at a low point. Tom's being strong. That's a happy ending for me.

Eric -- 10 Dec 1998, 11:47 AM

Actually I LIKED the downer ending... I think Star Trek has way to many happy endings and it was good seeing things NOT work out for a change. And what better character to explore this dark side then Tom Paris.

Besides I think I like the new/old dark Tom. There mission now is to make sure this isn't wasted (like Odo losing his powers on DS9) they have to USE this episode to tell some really good stories, because there are SO many ways to use this.

Eric (wow, three posts in a row!)

Marie -- 10 Dec 1998, 1:58 PM

Braga deep down in control... I had some real problems with this episode, too, Terry, but I was excited by episode as a whole, because here we see Biller do what Trek writers--and especially Voyager writers--so rarely do. He takes one of the main characters and creates a series of events that alter that character's position on the ship. Okay, Tom probably won't remain an ensign forever, but presumably he won't be promoted again within the next episode or two. I *like* the fact that everything isn't all right again by episode's end. It's one of the (many) things I liked about NOTHING HUMAN: B'Elanna and Janeway didn't have a Mama Janeway talk and hug, and things between them didn't get resolved.

I agree completely that the Doc acted like a real jerk, and that Janeway seemed overeager to blow Tom's ship out of the water. On the other hand, I agree with her actions. Yes, I just said that. While I sympathized with Tom, I believe that Janeway was right: they had given the leaders of that world the pertinent information on what was wrong and how it needed to be fixed. He had no right playing God with those people's existence. He disobeyed a direct order from his captain that would affect the fate of a world. He undermined Janeway's command.

Isn't it awful, though,considering the demotion and punishment, Tom didn't succeed in quest to destroy that mining operation? No, not really. Sometimes things don't work out the way you plan. That happens in real life and I thought this made the episode more realistic. Tom's severe punishment also added to that sense of realism. Too often, major infractions have have resulted in a simple slap of the wrist. (This was certainly the case with Seven-of-Nine last season.) And the person getting slapped didn't necessarily learn much from the experience.

Tom's imprisonment forced him to think about his actions and motivations, and also gave him a doorway to open a link with his father. Even one-sided, that link is more than he's apparently had before. Not only has Tom learned something about himself from his failure, but so have we: Tom is a true rebel, not a rebel without a cause. Like he tried to tell his father, he's not Starfleet material--but that isn't necessarily a bad thing. He's his own person, trying to live what he thinks is right.

I didn't find this episode depressing at all. I thought it was a revelation.

Marie -- 10 Dec 1998, 2:24 PM

I never would have thought, a season or four ago, that I would one day say this, but here goes:

Braga taking over the helm of VOYAGER is best thing that's ever happened to the show. There hasn't been a clunker so far, and even when episodes haven't been perfect, they've been interesting. We're *finally* getting character-driven episodes and wonderful interaction among the crew. Characters are growing, changing, revealing new facets of themselves.

I'm beginning to appreciate Janeway again (except for her continuing tendency to trust aliens and invite them over to her ship within the first two minutes of an initial meeting). She's acting decisively, and making decisions that neither leave me scratching my head in befuddlement or screaming out loud in outrage. I'm even beginning to like (aack!) Harry Kim.

VOYAGER is starting to take chances, to get away from anomaly-of-the-week stories and present thought-provoking issues. Why, it's beginning to remind me of TOS.

Ruth -- 10 Dec 1998, 2:56 PM

I agree, Marie --- and that is fun to say again. ;-) Nice to see you.

When I started getting the Columbia House tapes of Season One, I was somewhat startled to realize how "together" the show had been at one time. People had histories, and there was consistency, there was humor, and there was an ensemble feel to the episodes. The last two were especially important to me, b/c the humor and the TOS "family" were what I always liked best about TOS. The whole flow of the show was better than what I was seeing last season.

This season, while there have been undeniably dark moments (depression, death, and demotion, to name three), there have been some funny moments -- the Captain Proton holoprogram, a couple of Tom and Tuvy moments, Harry's "they're having sex" comment. Further, there has been more of a sense that these people care for each other and are working together (I'll ignore Tom's inability to say the three little words."

In other words, the show seems more complex this year, and, I think more interesting. And I think the cast must think so too, b/c even the weaker actors are turning in better performances.

One small element that I'd like to mention are the opening teaser segments. I don't know whether it is b/c of Braga or not, but I have also felt that they have been excellent this season, the two best IMHO being that chilling moment in "Timeless" when you realize that Voyager is engulfed in ice, and last night's when "Ensign" Paris is marched off to the brig. Teasers don't make a whole show, but they've done an exceptionally good job this year of catching my interest. Rather than having them come upon an AOTW or something, they've made us realize almost immediately that something interesting and or profound has happened to "our" crew.

P.S. Oh, and Marie, you wouldn't believe the student stories I've managed to add to my archive this week.

Jason -- 10 Dec 1998, 8:37 PM

Well, my work here is done!

Here I was, reading your message, and judging by the title getting ready to argue in favor of Braga... but you surprised me. Not only have you endorsed Janeway (again) but now you are approving of Braga as well!

I guess persistence really does pay off.

It's great to see you again, Marie (Especially now that we don't have anything to argue about. :-) ) I hope you can find time to drop by a little more often.

Sue_B -- 10 Dec 1998, 9:16 AM

Let's give the doc a holo-wedgie.

Good summary of the nits Terry et al. They echo my thoughts. I'll restrict my ranting to a summary and three topics: Doc's callousness, Janeway's Discipline, and Tom's character (positive ranting).

EPISODE SUMMARY:

On the balance, a Tom-fest for sure but really depressing on his permanent demotion and his relationship with Janeway. He's always been the pet and now I don't know if she trusts him. Ouch.

Doc:

The Doc was way way out of line. He's been callous before but "do no harm" applies to mental state as well. Maybe Tom can get B'Elanna to give him a permanent holo-wedgie or some itchy illness for a week.

Janeway's Discipline:

I believe that she allowed her personal anger to cloud her judgement. He let her down on a personal level and her response seems borderline vindictive. Many Air Force Officers' are required to memorize the following quote (given by Gen Schoefield at West Point in 1861 -- I think) quote: "The discipline of a free soldier is not to be gained by harsh or tyrannical treatment. On the contrary, such treatment is far more likely to destroy rather than create an army"

She went beyond firm, she crossed the line of tyrannical. Did she engender crew loyalty from her actions? Did she bolster discipline? Debatable. Her steps: stopped his plan, put him in the brig, and demoted him. I'll buy the first two but not the last. Her duty was to stop Tom and a weapon was required. Her statement to Harry "he forfeited his rights", however true, was spoken in anger. Sending him to the brig was also appropriate. He needed to be disciplined and think about his actions. Keeping him in "solitary" was necessary for introspection. The demotion in rank was, IMO, arbitrary and capricious. She was pissed and wanted to immediately make an impact. The time-honored concept of graduated punishment was ignored. You almost never demote an officer (although enlisted personnel have been know to "loose a stripe" after REPEATED offenses). This particular punishment was especially uneven. Tuvok disobeyed a direct order & violated the PD in Season 1 (and gets a talking-to), Chakotay stole a shuttle to chase Seska (no consequences), Seven disobeys direct orders as a hobby (and gets sent to her cargo-room), and Neelix lies (and gets to scrub the plasma manifolds). The first three are clear defiance of the Captain's orders. Tom's true crime was directly disobeying an order and putting his judgement over the Captain's. Like most, I didn't feel the passion of the case. I think the writer's didn't want to give us too clear of an answer. He didn't violate the Prime Directive (and she didn't say he did). Tom knew he was disappointing the Captain, did it anyway because he thought he was right, and she didn't rise above it.

Janeway's bad mood needs to be broken (next week?)

Tom's Character et al:

Really good stuff. I agree that the message was that he is starting to care about whether or not he has pleased himself vice pleasing his father or the Captain. It is personal development. I am, however, deeply depressed that he may have lost his status as a senior crew member and hope that Chakotay (surprise!) intercedes like he did for Seven. I thought RDM, GW, and RD were outstanding. I also thought Tuvok was Vulcan-friendly with his "rise and shine". I'm still looking for an electronic weapon to use against the Doc.

Apologies for the length. I think we haven't heard from Leonie because she's headed to LA to slay a writer. I can hear a Xena scream from here. Any bets?

D'Alaire -- 9 Dec 1998, 9:38 PM

Thirty Days of Our Lives......that I loved.

The house is a mess and for once I don't care. I couldn't log off without saying something about this glorious, long-awaited Paris episode.

I loved the letter--wonderful, wonderful, and long overdue. I loved the friendship, and, yes, even Harry giving Tom a jolt he needed was great.

I loved the P/T closeness and support--yea, B'Elanna! and that turning point scene. It was warm, supportive, appropriate and excellently done. I could go on and on, of course, but I'll spare you. To put it simply--beautiful. I also loved how that scene and B'Elanna's simple wisdom contributed to Tom's final decision, and as a contrast to the earlier, funny "play."

And I adored her quip of "My quarters, 0700. That's an order, Ensign," and how he took that so well. Only she would get away with that fairly and affectionately. You knew she understood. And so did he. Nice.

Janeway scared the h*ll out of me, but she she was excellent while taking the hard line. Wow stuff all around.

I admit, I'd had a lot of trepidation going into this demotion deal. I didn't want to hope too hard that it'd be as good as it was. Now I have no qualms about it. All the hope is there for that return of his rank someday, hopefully someday soon. But I will love to see it happen. Oh, the possibilities! However, for now...

Tom Paris grew up, from that boy in his nightmares and playing on the holodeck and getting itchy in the brig to a man, thoughtful on the holodeck, finally taking action for a "cause," and took his actions like just that--a man, and accepted it. Gorgeous.

RDM was fantastic (and ta and congrats to Ginny! He got wet, too! Yum, hmm?), and intense and all around the board versatile, playing every mood and situation so well, showing Tom's growth in that hour with such a seeming ease....Wow.

Kudos to RDM once again from me for his pushing Paris' activist side. I thought it was a great idea from the start, but I didn't know how TPTB would treat it. But now that I have, seen Tom get demoted for his beliefs, earning a new and mature sense of strength and pride, and coming to at least some terms with his father (great idea to send the letter as well!), I'm very, very pleased.

I cannot say that enough.

I do have some nits. But they can wait a bit. I have to pop out for a while. I'll be back.

Jason -- 9 Dec 1998, 10:21 PM

It took me almost THIRTY DAYS to get on the board!

Well, this episode was overall a mixed bag. I appreciated some of the things that this episode did or otherwise attempted, but otherwise a lot of it is either dull, falls flat, or mood inappropriate.

This follows in the legacy of episodes whose music is composed by Paul Baillegeron that I have struggled to like. "Omega Directive", "Mortal Coil", for all their strengths were hurt tremendously by the music of this guy. And the problem is that his music is never, ever mood appropriate tot he action going on on screen. Think how much more tense the showdown between Janeway and Paris would have been if the music reflected their emotions? Instead, we got a score that was similar to elevator music. It sat in the background, not caring what was going on in the episode but content just to do what it wanted. I find this very distracting and a detriment to the episodes he composes, a mistake TPTB should rectify by shoving Baillegeron and his music out the nearest airlock.

Oh, the Delaney sisters. Yuck! Five years of build up, two minutes of absolute revulsion! (I'm not convinced revulsion is a word, but if Lisa Klink can use it...)

While the scene was cute, the actresses and the characterization were not that great nor were they very attractive.

The AOTW were not very attractive either. I have the feeling that Riga was the same person who played Veer in "Distant Origin". If this is not the case then the actors are certainly very similar. But these AOTW fell in to the category of "same old, same old". Plus, we've already had the environmentalist storyline twice this season, a third this early was not necessary.

Paris' sea loving backstory also rang false.

The Good:

Eric, the CGI waves were spectacular!

I'm not going to rescind my statement that McNeill is this year's Wang just yet but I didn't mind him in this episode. He wasn't astonishingly good, but he managed to hit most of the right notes.

I liked that this episode took risks by putting Janeway and Tom against each other. The scene where Janeway bumps him down in rank and reprimands him was very good.

Although this episode wasn't particularly compelling, what did show up on the screen didn't completely turn me off, either. It's not a great episode or even an astonishingly good one, but it's not terrible either.

That said, I'd place it very close to the bottom of the list of Voyager's episodes this season, just one notch above "Once Upon a Time".

Considering the material to work with, what we saw was a disappointment, but a handful of scenes are really quite good.

Andy -- 9 Dec 1998, 11:12 PM

So I take it that you still prefer season 4 over this year, Jason.

I'm just sitting down to watch tonight's episode--not much privacy in that brig of theirs, is there---and I thought captain's generally held "mast" (discipline hearings) in the company of several senior officers. Somehow, my expectations aren't very high.

Did you see the Entertainment Weekly article a week or so ago that predicted Voyager would be coming to an end? If it happens, remember who said it first.

The new movie premiers here tomorrow. Afterward, they are having a shindig at Star Trek: The Experience. Guess who isn't invited? If I find out that JLR is in town and I miss her again I swear I'm going to hang myself with a toaster cord.

Well, the show's back on. Guess I'll see how they underuse Seven this week....

Jason -- 10 Dec 1998, 10:07 PM

Twisted Sisters. I'm not completely turned off the sisters, however they weren't quite up to my anticipations, either. And while their outfits were appropriate for Captain Proton, I didn't really think that they really flattered the sisters, either... so I think I'm going to have to wait until they are in regular uniforms before I judge them.

Regarding future appearances... I heard a few months ago straight from the horses mouth that if Heidi and Alissa do a good job they'll be back. I haven't heard since whether they lived up to expectations....

Maureen -- 9 Dec 1998, 10:34 PM

Thirty something. I'm gonna be unrelentingly positive 'cause Mr. Paris is my favorite character and I make no pretense about being objective. Jeez, I think the guy had more dialogue in this episode than in the previous 4 seasons combined!

The teaser grabbed me. I was trying real hard to avoid the spoilers this week, but, well, I peeked at one or two...still, I didn't expect the teaser to be his demotion. Oh, that stiff little walk to the brig! Yeah, he kept being his smart-@ssed self, but there were some great cracks in the mask.

I love the Captain Proton holoprogram--it's just so ludicrous. And they play it with such sincerity. Good use of the Delaney sisters (finally!) Sure, there are those of us who wouldn't have minded seeing a different member of the crew bound up in chains by the evil-minded duo, but Harry's reaction to Captain Proton's entrance was worth it. Typical Harry, being in love with the wrong twin, but I'm so happy to be past his Seven phase.

Hey, I figured when Tom saw that ocean world, he thought, "Cool! Surfing!" Okay, his sailing obsession was out of the blue. And I don't buy that he minds being on starships--not the best d@amn pilot--oh, and they should have found a much cuter kid for the Helmboy Jr. However, they did use Warren Munson again as Admiral Daddy.

Oh, the conversation between Tom and the Captain about his reading habits and interest in the sea. When's the last time those two had some quality time? Sure, you knew no good was going to come of that, but I loved seeing those two together.

Hey, how much does Janeway hate disciplining someone that much taller than her? The whole time Tom was just looking over the top of her head. No wonder she was so p!ssed at him. That was a harsh punishment, not even allowing visitors. But Tom's 'fleet and understood it. I think--based on his family background and previous experience with his court-martial and prison time--that he knew what he was risking and accepted it. He may have lost the Captain's trust but I don't think she's lost his.

And they brought to life just about every fan-fic moment that you can show in primetime. Unshaven Tom, tight-shirted Tom, WET Tom, nightmare-ridden Tom, prisoner Tom. This one was a buffet.

Nice to see B'Elanna go to Tom on the holodeck. He still doesn't reach out for help, but he didn't run away when she wanted to talk to him about something serious. When she told him she was proud of him, that was a major sigh moment. And I liked Harry giving Tom some tough love while he was in the brig.

I thought they did a nice job of conveying just how much Tom hated being in the brig. He made his snotty comments, but he was so desperate for company. I liked the device of his writing to his father, and the ending to his letter. Not blaming and not taking the blame either. Just acknowledging the problem. Just facing it.

Not a perfect episode. No such creature exists. But this is what a lot of us have been asking for and I'm glad I got to see it.

Diane -- 9 Dec 1998, 10:39 PM

The Night of 30 Toms. Boy, was this a Tom/McNeill fest! Has Ginny recovered? Jules, you will be in heaven.

Now lets see, there's Rebel Tom, Captain Tom, Jailbird Tom, Little Tom, Friend Tom, Lover Tom, Pilot Tom, yada, yada, yada, and Wet Tom. A Tom-Aholic couldn't ask for anything more. I can just imagine the fanfic writers going wild.

And yes, this episode was written for McNeill. There was a lot in there, especially liked Harry's comment about never finishing. How appropriate for a guy who quite high school 2-3 months before graduation, quite Julliard, quite a soap opera, get the picture.

Really enjoyed this episode. Loved the story, a lot of inner character movement, enjoyed the CGI (much better than last week), felt McNeill did a great job (like some of the guys with Ryan, maybe I am prejudiced), heck, even my husband (who rarely says anything) made a comment. One last comment before beddy buy, Janeway was correct in her actions as a Captain and Mulgrew pulled it off beautifully. I only which there had been time to hear her thoughts.

My only but, major nit, at the end B'Elanna asks Paris to dinner at 0700. Never new anyone to have dinner at 7 a.m.

And Ginny, in this episode his eyes show up GREY!

Michelle -- 9 Dec 1998, 10:56 PM

You're Right Diane! 0700 is 7:00 a.m. . . . on the 24-hour/military clock. I forgot to mention that in my post earlier. I think they've made that mistake a few times on the various Treks.

I guess the writers don't think we'd "get" that 1800 hours would be dinner time.

Terry -- 9 Dec 1998, 11:13 PM

Two words: night shift (NIM)

Berserker -- 9 Dec 1998, 11:52 PM

All in all, a wash. This episode was fanfic.

Just a very bland hour. Everything felt contrived - a sea planet, Tom's desires to be a sailor (I thought he liked cars?), his desire to risk his career, with Voyager miraculously destroying the DF's torpedo. etc. Part of the problem was showing the demotion at the start. It took any surprise away.

Basically, it became "let's hurt Tom." The aliens would have been better had there been any sophistication to them. A much better plot would have had them knowingly deceive Voyager, everyone misunderstands each other, and Tom in an attempt to save the planet winds up destroying the planet.

As it was, Tom getting demoted because he tried to save a planet was pretty dull. I don't see the Prime Directive issue either, as Janeway gave these people the specs to the Delta Flyer (!) and it wasn't their planet anyway.

The character moments weren't strong either, the letter to pa was poorly written and acted which is a shame since it was a good idea. McNeill is this year's Wang, as someone else observed. I didn't see much point to the Proton bit either, unlike in Night it didn't seem to be saying anything.

Second bad script from Biller this year, the other being Extreme Risk. Everything else from Vger has been good. He's holding the rest of the show down.

Carol -- 10 Dec 1998, 12:16 AM

"These are the days of Paris' life..." As I write this, I've yet to see the complete ending of the episode. I taped the satellite broadcast at 6:00 but I was working (I got a job at the campus bookstore this week) and since the clock on my VCR is a little fast, the tape stopped when B'Elanna hailed Tom in his quarters, but I've seen enough of the episode to give it a "Eh. OK." (I'm watching the 9 o'clock rebroadcast right now as I write this). A Paris episode and while it was ten times better that the last two tries at a Tom ep (Vis A Vis and Threshold ::shudder::respectively), it what hardly a "knocked-out-of the-box" character episode.

Cheers

I loved most of RDM's performance in this episode. Its still my belief that, along with Mulgrew and Picardo, RDM is still one of the best actors on the show. The scene between Janeway and Paris in her ready room. I haven't seen any good Janeway/Paris scenes in a long time (except for the occasional banter on the bridge or what have you). Contrasted with the scenes at the beginning and towards the end when she dressed him down, both were wonderfully well handed. I know Kate's going to get criticized to high heaven for throwing Tom in the brig because he disobeyed orders for such a worthy cause (and I have a criticism about it myself), but she's the Captain. Just because Tom acted nobly doesn't mean he has the right to run off willy-nilly and put the ship in a situation where they might be put in another conflict with the AOTW. Sure, Kate's broken the PD on many occasions, but only when the situation directly affected Voyager and her crew. If the situation with the water generators had been like that (directly affected Voyager), I think she would have been more hard pressed to punish him.

Two weeks in a row I get decent Paris/Torres scenes. The scene between them in the holodeck was well done. Very natural.

Great visual FX. Do I smell a Emmy Nomination in the wind?

Captain Proton didn't annoy me like it did in Night. Must be growing on me.

Jeers

Heidi and Alyssa Kramer are better over actors than actors. The were great and funny during the Captain Proton scene. They were both painful to watch in the hallway scene. Nice though that Harry goes for the thoughtful twin.

For some reason, I just found it hard to figure out why Tom was so passionate about saving these people. The whole "love of the sea" and 19th century history thing definitely came out of nowhere (we saw his passion for cars things in the 20th century as far back as The 37's). But it seemed like that love was a really flimsy reason that he wanted to help them to the point of insubordination.

I love Kate, you all know that, but I think throwing Paris in the brig for thirty days was a little overboard for her to do. I'm not saying she should have just turned the other cheek about the fact that he disobeyed her order, but stripping him of his rank seemed enough of a punishment IMO. "Let The Punishment Fit The Crime." Here, it didn't seem to.

Also everyone seemed way to blaze about blowing Tom up (except Harry). And Doc's comments to Tom in the brig -- geez! Rub 20 cc's of nitric acid into that wound why don't you?

I love RDM, you all know that, but Paris seemed really whiny during some parts of the episode. I actually found myself wishing Harry would slap him when he came to visit him. The AOTW's also got on my nerves too -- except the guy who was helping Tom. (I found his rather shyness adorable :-).

Anyway, I don't have much else to say. Best Paris episode Voyager's done, but considering the composition for the top spot.... :-) I could see what Ken Biller was trying to do and I appreciated it, but alot of the episode just rang a little hollow for me. OK episode, but not a standout however.

Jules -- 10 Dec 1998, 7:58 AM

Tossing Tom in the brig... I don't know, Carol. I haven't seen the episode yet, true, but the cooling off period in the brig sounds entirely the sort of thing that Janeway would do. In fact the only thing that really surprises me about the concept is that we haven't seen more of it.

She's always been big on giving people the time and space to reflect. Remember when she gave Harry a couple of extra days leave to think over the experience after he died for the first time in "Emanations"? And she's done it with other people since. Perhaps because she obviously spends a lot of time in her quarters replaying her own actions in her head, she thinks that her crew should also take the time to look inward and reflect... and maybe do a bit of self judging too.

Doesn't mean that they won't still think that they're right when their time's up, of course. :-)

Joyce -- 10 Dec 1998, 3:38 AM

Consider me officially p*ssed off. I like Mulgrew, and I try to like Janeway, but right now I'm ready to lead a mutiny, if not against Janeway, then against the criminally sloppy writers of this show.

Did anyone else notice that Janeway just busted and confined Paris for attempting to do the *exact* same thing she did in Night?

Consider. In Night, we have an alien race that's dumping toxic waste into another alien race's domain. Janeway tries to solve things nicely at first, showing the dumper how he can dispose of his waste without damage to these other aliens. But he's not going to take Federation advice and plans to continue his nasty ways. So Voyager comes up with a way to use the alien's vortex and yet destroy it behind them, thereby forcing the alien to find another solution to his problem.

In Thirty Days, we have an artificially constructed water world. It is inhabited by people who *found* and settled it 300 years ago. They have a problem with losing containment, and Voyager sets out to help solve the problem. Deep underwater, they discover the ancient device that has been keeping the water contained. They also find huge denizens of the deep, that must predate the settlers, since the settlers didn't even know they were there, so obviously didn't bring said denizens with them. The Voyagers learn that the device and the world is 100,000 years old.

They give the current inhabitants information on how to solve their problem. They get *very* strong indications that the inhabitants are *not* going to use their solution, but instead continue their environmentally irresponsible ways, essentially destroying the world for the denizens, who might well be the creators of the world, and who at least have a prior claim to it.

So what do they do? Do they investigate further, attempt to find out who created the world and why? Attempt to analyze the denizen they encountered, and find out whether or not they're sentient beings? Nope, they're just going to go on their merry way, and let the later settlers destroy the world at their leisure -- hey, not their problem.

Really, it *isn't*, but neither was the toxic waste dumping situation in Night. So when Paris tries to force the issue, and force the settlers into a path less destructive to the denizens, in other words, tries to do *the exact same thing Janeway did*, he's busted and locked up.

I say we mutiny, who's with me?

Diane -- 10 Dec 1998, 6:58 AM

But, Paris disobeyed direct orders, Joyce, and put Voyager in a precarious position. That's why he was thrown into the brig, not for breaking the Prime Directive.

Mrs. Mac -- 10 Dec 1998, 7:05 AM

I feel your pain, Joyce. Mac and I were talking about the same thing as we watched the episode. The difference is that Paris disobeyed a direct order. Janeway takes orders from no one!

Diane -- 10 Dec 1998, 8:31 AM

Remember, Kirk was demoted for directly disobeying Starfleet. I forgot what movie it was, but he was demoted from Admiral to Captain.

Remember, Janeway (alone in the Delta Quadrant) has to maintain the order and rule of her ship. If she allowed everyone to "do their own thing" she would have chaos.

I believe the demotion was justified, as was the 30 days to reflect on his actions.

Jason -- 10 Dec 1998, 9:27 AM

No, the difference is Paris aided a rebel... and did something that was against the wishes of that ocean's government. Janeway responded to a request for help. And by shutting down the vortex she was not doing anything directly to either the Malon or Night aliens anyway. It was in unclaimed space.

Joyce -- 10 Dec 1998, 12:12 PM

But the point is... If the Janeway of Thirty Days was the same Janeway as Night, Paris wouldn't have had to disobey an order, because Janeway would have been right there with him. She should have at *least* instructed the crew to find out more about the ancient device and the deep sea creatures, and try to find out more about the situation, rather than just going on her way without trying to sort out who actually had the best claim to the planet.

I know what the writers wanted to do was an episode where Tom does something from noble motives and has to be punished for it, but they left too many loose ends, and to me, wound up making Janeway look bad.

It's on a par with the Chute Janeway being willing to make deals with terrorists and break into a prison to get her crewmembers out, while the Random Thoughts Janeway sits back passively and allows her chief engineer to be lobotomized. Plot is driving character rather than vice versa, so you wind up with a captain with Multiple Personality Disorder.

Jason -- 10 Dec 1998, 8:26 PM

Oh come on! In this episode, Janeway stayed out of an internal matter that her crew was in no way involved in. They stopped by the ocean and offered to consult and help if needed. In "The Chute", her crewmembers were unjustly tried and arrested. In "Night" she received a request for assistance from an alien species who was being annihilated.

Never, ever has Janeway stopped by a planet and said "I don't like how you're running your world, so I'm going to dictate how you run it for you" with the exception of "Living Witness". Ever. Janeway was in no way involved with these people, and she did not interfere with their chosen way of life.

She was in no way being inconsistent. When has Janeway ever done something affecting the lives of an entire species when not asked or otherwise forced to do so?

What Paris, did on the other hand was tantamount to a terrorist act. I find it hard to believe that people believe Janeway is on the moral low ground on this one.

Terry -- 10 Dec 1998, 7:44 AM

The Night aliens were murderous, not suicidal, Joyce. Janeway wouldn't have cared if the Malon had dumped their garbage in their own space. But they were performing genocidal dumping on someone else's.

Actually, I noted similarities between the moral dilemmas of this episode and Nothing Human. The question there was whether to save someone (B'Elanna) from possibly self-destructive behavior against her own wishes. Paris who had a passion for both B'Elanna and the Waterworld, consistently decided to save a life/lives despite their wishes. Janeway was inconsistent.

Another factor weighing in on Paris' side in this ep was that the truth about the situation was being hid from its people by their corrupt government.

Joyce -- 10 Dec 1998, 1:25 PM

ARRRRRGGGGH! But, once again -- it *wasn't* *their* *planet*!!!

This is my biggest gripe with the episode, and the reason my disgust is aimed more at the writers than any of the characters.

If the world had been created by the ancestors of the aliens Janeway was dealing with, *then* you would have had a clear-cut case for non-interference and the ship could have gone on their way. Paris could still have disobeyed nobly, and still been busted, but Janeway's actions would have been much less illogical and inconsistent.

But look at what they tell us -- the planet is 100,000 years old. The settlers have been there for 300 years. And, just to muddle the situation, there are *other* inhabitants on the planet, inhabitants that pre-date the settlers.

Now I'm sure the writers just stuck in the big old electric eel in order to have it attack the Delta Flyer and include some artificial tension and cool graphics, but in doing so, they *completely* complicated the moral situation. The settlers aren't just destroying their own home, they're also destroying the environment of a species whose claim on the world is probably better than theirs.

*That's* why I object so much to this episode -- they threw in details that were absolutely unnecessary, and only served to make Janeway look careless and indifferent. *Who* built the planet? *Why*? Without answering those questions, the rights and wrongs of the situation can never be sorted out, and *no* Starfleet captain, as presented in 30 years of Star Trek, would have left those questions unanswered.

Ginny -- 10 Dec 1998, 1:41 PM

Uh. Joyce. I didn't build Earth either, but I still consider it my planet.

And it isn't as though there wasn't someone to build support among the Minoans for making changes, even if the established government supported the status quo, when Kathryn made her decision not to intervene further. Riga knew the score. He could have used legitimate means to inform the population and build a groundswell of support for taking the necessary actions to save the ocean/planet. Instead, he chose terrorism.

And now I really am going to go back to staff meeting.

Joyce -- 10 Dec 1998, 10:58 PM

The point I've been *trying* to make is not the right and wrong of the situation, but the fact that the episode was *poorly* written! If the writers didn't *want* to get into the issue of ownership of the planet, and obviously they didn't, then they shouldn't have dropped in all those red herrings about the inhabitants being settlers, and the crew not knowing why the planet was constructed. It's an old, *old* rule of dramatic writing that you don't show, point to, and underline a gun in the first act unless it's going to go off before the final curtain.

There was no *need* to make the inhabitants settlers. They could have been the descendants of the original builders, who'd lost the technology to repair what their ancestors had built. Then Voyager offers them help, they accept or refuse as they chose, and the whole plot line is cleaned up. As it is, they have a muddled mess.

Jason -- 10 Dec 1998, 9:24 AM

It's not the same at all. In "Night", Janeway responded to an official request for assistance from the Night aliens, who were being slaughtered by the Malon. In "Thirty Days", Tom Paris offered help to a persona with no official status, basically helping him become a rebel. No one was dying in "Thirty Days" and there was no evidence that the government would not eventually respond to the crisis. Paris furthermore gave innocent people an ultimatum and likely would have killed them if they had not responded.

How is it the same thing again?

Janeway offered to lend them assistance if they asked for it. They declined. The same offer was extended to the Night aliens. They accepted the assistance.

The only thing they have in common was that there was an intervention. The crisis, request for help and outcome were all completely different.

Stage a mutiny if you want, but I have a feeling Janeway and ol' Betsy would quash it pretty easily... (Hmmm, maybe it's time for another round of Auburn Queen gun toting pics...)

ande -- 10 Dec 1998, 11:19 PM

All I could think during the episode was my mom saying "Do as I say, not as I do." Paris learned a lot of what he knows at the knees of Janeway. She has broken the Prime Directive on more than one occasion all the way back to Caretaker. Yes, she had good reasons for breaking the PD, but Paris had a good reason, too.

I thought Janeway was correct to demote him and throw him in the brig, but she was way less than understanding with him. It will be interesting to see if she continues to give him the cold shoulder in future episodes or if she forgives and forgets since he has done his time. In the past she has not been so quick to forget. It will also be interesting to see if Starfleet holds her accountable for her infractions.

I loved the P/T and the P/K scenes. They really showed the friendships. I like the Captain Proton holoprogram and the Delaney sisters were just like I thought they would be. Interesting detail that Harry likes the wrong woman again.

Most everything else has been mentioned. One thing I will say is that I would really like a nice funny episode. I am so tired of these depressing and or deep/heavy episodes.

TKS -- 10 Dec 1998, 6:52 AM

I think that that was the point. How many times has the Prime Directive been broken by the Captains of the Federation. Yet when Paris acts on his own he's busted!?!?!?

What I did appreciate is the fact that Paris stuck by his convictions throughout his thirty days in the brig. He still believes he did the right thing.

One thing is certain he never implicated B'Elanna as an accomplice, and he certainly could have. He has shown responsibility, and wasn't afraid to take the consequences.

Mrs. Mac -- 10 Dec 1998, 6:55 AM

I know that many people thought that "Timeless" was the best Voyager episode to date but I can't remember being as pleased about an episode as I was about "Down Deep." Ginny must be floating after the treat TPTB gave us.

I don't time to say much but the episode pleased me for a number of reasons:
1) Janeway was back to her old assertive self.
2) It was the best performance for McNeill yet. Don't you agree?
3) Harry was great.
4) The Delaney Sisters were a hoot.
5) The Paris/Torres moments were terrific. ("That's an order, Ensign!")
6) The FX was wonderful.
7) The AOTW were good (nice noses).

Things that bothered me:
1) Where are the toilets in the Brig? Is someone going to stare at them every time they - uh - you know?
2) That's ALL the beard Tom Paris can grow after 30 days? Sheesh. If he was MikeD he'd look like Rip Van Winkle.
3) There seemed to be some sort of letdown after Tom made the decision to stay after the Delta Flyer took some severe damage. The eel did not come back and there seemed to be no peril. Perhaps something was cut out there.
4) Was it necessary for the doctor to wait for the forcefield to be disengaged in the Brig before he passed through?

Remember a couple of weeks ago I mentioned the prevalence of the number "13" in the episode? This week it was number "14":
1445-7 on hydro transfer station.
The Delaney Sisters had to get something done by 1400 hours.
"See you at 14:00 hours."
1400 hours until they resume course for the Alpha Quadrant.
7% hydro volume and 0700 hours in Janeway's quarters - both nicely half of 14.

Contest?
Things that might help Ginny and Fliteman (and to keep my hubby's blood pressure down)
I saw a SIP! BUT! WAS IT COFFEE? I think we need a clarification of rules. If it's not clearly identified as coffee then does it count? For that matter we may never know.
1 damaged shuttle (the Flyer).
47 Regional Sovereigns
"36 seconds until they reach target" (I can squeeze a 47 out of that)

Shawnster -- 10 Dec 1998, 10:08 PM

About the Doctor and the brig forcefield...I wondered that too, then I concluded they would have to deactivate the forcefield to let the holoemitter pass through. I looked to see if he was actually wearing it. I thought he was but it was hard to tell.

Still, have to assume he was and that there are no emitters in the brig.

Terry -- 9 Dec 1998, 11:44 PM

For Eric, Demonica and Alicia? (GI)

The one on the left is Demonica. No, she's Alicia. She's Demonica. Whatever. (Harry's the frustrated one in the middle who was this close to getting spanked.)
The one on the right is Megan. Are you sure? Of course, see the dimple? You know, Megan does rather look like Demonica Lewinsky in the first photo.

Eric -- 10 Dec 1998, 11:52 PM

MMMMMmmm, the Delaney sisters show live up to the hype!...NIM

Ginny -- 10 Dec 1998, 12:52 PM

Actually, Terry, I think her name is Malicia. Which makes sense, when paired with Demonica. Elf Ginny *<:-)

Shawnster -- 10 Dec 1998, 1:21 PM

Whatta mean, For Eric? I was the one who defend the Delaney sisters until the bitter end in the shuttle pool.

Eric stabbed them in the back. He was more concerned about saving someone who was not even on the show any longer. Not that I can fault him for that. Get yer YAM's straight buddy!

Eric -- 10 Dec 1998, 8:02 PM

Hey the sisters are nice but Kes is KES!...NIM

Ginny -- 10 Dec 1998, 9:41 AM

If minutes were hours, hours would seem like DAYS.
What a cinematic triumph! Stunning, breathtaking visuals:

Tom in shirtsleeves!
Tom doing push-ups!
Tom lying in bed! (Whoo-whoo!)
Tom all wet! (Double whoo-whoo! Although they were taking a chance with his hairpiece.)

What? The story? Oh. That's a little tougher. I usually read the other reviews first, but I don't have time today. I liked the focus on Tom and the presentation, but I had a few problems with the underlying assumptions. Let's take it by the numbers.

GRIPES

--This save-the-oceans idea would have played a little better, if there had been some sort of set-up in previous episodes. For example, instead of Captain Proton (much as I love it), Tom could had designed a Horatio Hornblower or Mutiny on the Bounty (How's would that have been for foreshadowing?) holoprogram, and we would have learned something about his fascination with the sea earlier. And how about a little groundwork for this newfound nature-oriented activism? Frankly, it smacked more of Chakotay than Tom, who has always seemed to value individual people over nature or things.

--WHAT THE HELL IS WRONG WITH B'ELANNA? There Tom sits, in glorious black and white, pensive, uncertain, deperately in need of some serious life-affirming cuddling, and what does she do? Nothing. Zip. Zero. Nada. Niente.

I give up.

--The little boy who played the young Tom was cute, but I don't care how miserable his childhood was, it wouldn't turn brown eyes gray (or blue, no matter what Crystal Gayle sang). And then I noticed that the actor didn't have a credit, and a thought occurred to me. Could that child have been Kyle McNeill?

--Tom must still be Kathryn's pet, because she was way too easy on him. What he did was not only insubordinate, but foolish, dangerous and selfish, especially when he put the Delta Flyer at risk. If I had been the Captain, I would have been tempted to accommodate his fascination with 19th century sailing customs by tying his disobedient ass to a yardarm and flogging him.

GRATIFYING BITS

--An excellent, rivetting intro. That Ken Biller--I love 'im. Writes good dialogue, too.

--Okay, I admit it freely and without shame. I adore the Captain Proton program. And I would have to say that the introduction of the Delaney Sisters was an unqualified success. I believe that I was the first at Psi Phi to speculate that they would be twins, AND I postulated in a bit of fanfic that they would be dark-haired and dark-eyed.

Dang, I'm good.

--I'm also pleased that TPTB are backing away from Harry and Seven. It would never have worked. Harry and Megan, OTOH, might. And think of all the incredible comic relief possible in that pairing--from Jenny throwing jealous fits to Tom giving useless romantic advice (after all, he can't even get his girlfriend to kiss him when he's all adorable and needy).

--Terrific Harry and Tom moments this week. I especially liked the scene in the brig. It reminded me of their relationship in the first and second seasons--you know, when it was really interesting.

--I thought the guest AOTW were fine. Riga was a particularly likable little guy.

--Good lines this week:
Tom, as Captain Proton
"Whatever."
"Move it, toots."

Holodoc
"Your injury was what Naomi Wildman would call a boo-boo."

Tuvok
"Rise and shine, Ensign."

--47's abounded
Heard:
47 regional sovereignties

Seen:
Number on hydrotransfer simulation screen read 144.5-7

Ginny's obscure and not-so-obscure 47's:
560 kilometers in depth--560=4x7x20
Hydrotransfer simulation 1186--11=4+7
36 seconds until they reach target--10-3=7, 10-6=4
Blue lights in the transporter panels--4 vertical stripes, 7 horizontal
And my personal favorite--the Delaney Sister's headdresses, which were shaped like 4 big ol' 7's.

Mrs. Mac -- 11 Dec 1998, 7:20 AM

Captain! Ginny's pickin' on B'Elanna again!

Ginny said: -WHAT THE HE!! IS WRONG WITH B'ELANNA? There Tom sits, in glorious black and white, pensive, uncertain, deperately in need of some serious life-affirming cuddling, and what does she do? Nothing. Zip. Zero. Nada. Niente.

I give up.

Sometimes, Ginny, you just sit with the person you love and it means MEGAtons. Personally, I found that moment touching, mature, and more meaningful than most of the other times we've seen them together. Love is expressed in many other ways. Anyhoo - how do we know that they didn't cuddle after the shot was over? Sheesh. Mrs. Mac

Ginny -- 11 Dec 1998, 7:34 AM

Then I want to see it, Mrs. Mac. For all we don't see in the Tom and B'Elanna relationship, Tom could just as believably have something going on with Kathryn (I wish), Chakotay, Harry, the Delaney Sisters, the Delta Flyer, and/or Tuvok. For once, I want to see a little physical contact between Paris and Torres that doesn't remind me of arm-wrestling with my cousin.

Mrs. Mac -- 11 Dec 1998, 7:43 AM

What I've seen in their relationship are the same things I see in my own marriage. Mac may be a tease at other times (the Delaney Sisters), may have his own hobbies (Delta Flyer), and there's certainly nothing going on with any older women he may respect (Janeway), but a moment alone together speaks volumes about our relationship. It screams in that picture Terry posted.

If two actors can express a strong relationship with their eyes and gestures without touching then they're tops in my book. In my opinion, Dawson and McNeill succeeded there.

Terry -- 11 Dec 1998, 7:49 AM

I gotta agree wholeheartedly with Mrs. Mac, Ginny.

I found that scene very moving. It's not always about sex. Paris was agonizing about his failure to remedy a terrible situation and rather than cuddle with him and make him forget his problems, B'Elanna drew him out. And once he discussed had his feelings, she quietly nudged him toward taking some action on them. I found this much more intimate than the two snogging on an engineering console.

"Captain Proton can't save these people." "What about Tom Paris?"

Besides, that dinner after Tom served his time sounded like more than just an invitation to put on the feedbag with a pal. :)

Ginny -- 11 Dec 1998, 7:55 AM

Of course, it's not always about sex. The problem with these two is that it never seems to be about sex. Or even about the emotional support that comes from gentle, non-foreplay-oriented touches like holding hands, rubbing shoulders, gentle kisses, or just leaning up against each other.

Come on--it can't just be me who's noticed how little physical contact of any kind these two "lovers" have had. I mean, we went straight from pre-sexual relationship bickering to dull-as-dishwater involved. Where was all the good stuff at the beginning of the relationship?

D'Alaire -- 11 Dec 1998, 9:10 AM

It's seen, all right. You just have to look.
This came up quickly! And yes -- That pic showed it beautifully!

Well then, I do agree with you and Terry both. I got a ton out of their conversation (and B'Elanna's dinner invitation later)--and no, it didn't require even a touch. The words, the tones of their voices, the looks, the body language, their familiarity, said it all, and was all that was required.

RD and RDM have truly excelled at making a little into a lot this season, especially in this ep. Those who had been whining and complaining about the "smooching" last season ought to be happy with how T&B have gained enough security in their relationship that they wouldn't need to find solutions through obvious physicalities.

It shows also how much they've grown, how much more secure they are with themselves that they would feel the need to give the other outward physical responses, either, in order to show support and love.

And though she didn't mind at all the beforementioned smooching, this development in P/T makes even this hopeless romantic happy. It's comfortable and natural. They're friends as well as lovers. They were before, but that's what's obvious in their relationship now.

I love it.

AC -- 11 Dec 1998, 9:33 AM

Repeat after me, Ginny. *Hunters*

Ginny said:
The problem with these two is that it never seems to be about sex. Or even about the emotional support that comes from gentle, non-foreplay-oriented touches like holding hands, rubbing shoulders, gentle kisses, or just leaning up against each other.

Ok, Ginny, what about *Hunters* last season? The scene in Astrometrics where Tom & B'Elanna talk about his letter and how she found out that the Maquis got slaughtered? What do you call that hug and the tender hand on the cheek? It certainly wasn't anything like *Scientific Method* and it definitely looked like emotional support to me.

Ginny -- 11 Dec 1998, 9:43 AM

O.K., O.K., then. I guess it really is about sex. I guess I'm just going to have to get used to being disappointed with this couple, and going it relatively alone in that disappointment.

It just seems to me that even old married couple Miles and Keiko O'Brien have more physical contact and implied sex than Tom Paris and B'Elanna Torres...and they have two children.

Go figure.

Ruth -- 10 Dec 1998, 10:46 AM

Thanks, Ginny! At last someone recognizes the majesty that was Tom in "Thirty Days"!! Sonnets shall be written to commemorate his graceful form and stunning visage. We saw Tom play! We saw Tom suffer! We saw Tom wet!

I was wondering Ginny, given your fondness for "The Chute," if you were disappointed that Tommy was in solitary rather than out among the general prison population. ;-)

I'll have to post my comments later after class, but overall I liked the episode, although I concede many of the negative points I've seen.

I also reran the tape three times to check out the color of young Tom's eyes. I don't get the best reception from UPN, but if they weren't brown, they were dark blue as opposed to our Tom's pale blue-gray ones.

SuzyQ -- 10 Dec 1998, 11:03 AM

Uh, any GI's out there of this?...I don't care a wit about spoilers. I want pics that show what Ruthie describes! The Luminous One WET?!?!?

D'Alaire? D'ALAIRE?!?!?!? Where are you?

Alas, where are pirated video captures when you need them...*sigh*

D'Alaire -- 10 Dec 1998, 11:19 AM

None aside from Vidiot have been posted to my knowledge...but I'll add to your begging--

Terry!!!!!!!!

Darling, love of our lives, apple of our eyes, would you, could you, get some yummy Tommy vidcaps?

Please, please, pretty please????

No, I have no shame. ; )

Eric -- 10 Dec 1998, 11:31 AM

Hello Dad, I'm in JAIL!

(Did you guys ever hear that old punk song? It was one of my faves during my rebel years. It was in the soundtrack of an old Christian Slater movie. The one where he was a DJ and that cute girl danced all nekkid for him)

Anyway, I really liked this one. The FX were superb and I LOVED the idea of a water world! That was VERY cool. It reminded me of those old Sci-Fi novels like the Ringworld books and the Integral Trees.

AS to the Tommy boy story, that was a good idea and very well done. Writing the letter to his dad allowed us to see his whole process of disobeying orders...

...but as usual, I didn't really like the way Janeway went about it. Now don't get me wrong, Janeway was right to punish him, but I didn't like the way she DID IT. She made it look like a insult and WHERE THE HECK WAS Chakotay?????????? Or even Tuvok?? Somebody??? Just having her do it made it seem personal, or even vengeful!

Anyway what I liked :

Foundation (kick butt) Imaging is the best FX studio on TV today. No ifs, ands or buts about it.
I loved the CONCEPT of a water world, it is a grand sci-fi story, TPTB should be proud.
The Delta Flyer! The fastest hunk of junk in the galaxy!
Seven trying to understand navy lingo ;-)

What I didn't like :

Like I said the way Janeway demoted Tom looked WAY to personal. You would think Tuvok would have at least ONE good scene with Tom in prison! Not just the last "rise and shine" bit. The subordinate AOTW. I didn't like the way he played the part. Too whiny.

Vickie T. -- 10 Dec 1998, 12:43 PM

The good news is that I am a great-aunt. Patrick London, 7 1/2 pounds of blond-haired perfection, according to the doting father and great-grandmother.

The bad news is that my mother called to share every detail of the event right in the middle of Voyager. And, I didn't have the VCR running because we got home late and in my befuddled, sleep-deprived, jet-lagged state, operating the VCR was beyond my ability.

Thank heaven for weekend replays and the Nebulites' discussion.

Shawnster -- 10 Dec 1998, 1:16 PM

Thirty Days in the hole.

OK, the big question of the episode for me was: DID THEY DESTROY/DEACTIVATE THE OXYGEN REFINERY OR DIDN'T THEY? I couldn't tell if Paris was successful or what.

Thirty Days. LOVED IT. Good story and, best of all:

DELANEY SISTERS!

Now, how could all of you vote to have them die in the shuttle pool this past summer? I'm glad I stuck with 'em.

Tom, busted to ensign. Janeway giveth, Janeway taketh away. I guess she can do that, since it was a brevet commission that she bestowed (with the approval of Starfleet Command) in the first place.

At first, I didn't really enjoy the flashback story telling. Of course, after seeing how it fit in with Tom's letter home, it made sense. What made the flashback more enjoyable were the cuts to present time, letting us know that the month was progressing.

To me, however, it seemed a little out of character/out of place for Tom to be writing his father. "I'm in jail again but I want you to know how I got here." Why? Is it because Tom finally went to jail for sticking up for what he believes in, instead of just being a loser? I guess that makes sense.

Harry and the Delaney sisters. Nice to see the Delaney sisters are willing to play Captain Proton with Tom and Harry. I'd like to see how Tom asked them to join the group. I really enjoyed Harry's lines when Captain Proton boarded the ship. "No, really, I don't need saving. You go right ahead and fly the ship. Demonica and Malacia will be just fun, er, fine back here.

Harry's still fumbling around. The boy needs to take some lessons from Tom, at least on approach and self confidence.

Tom made the comment that Harry is again going after the unobtainable women, mentioning he'd previously fell for an unobtainable Borg. Seven, no doubt. My question is, why is Seven unobtainable? Or Megan Delaney for that matter? Is it just because they're not interested? My opinion/attitude is, they're always obtainable as long as they're not in a relationship. If something is worth having (a relationship, the love of a certain individual) it's worth fighting for or working hard to earn. Of course, who am I to comment, I can identify pretty well with Harry on this one (and that's all I'm gonna say about that).

Tom charged up over a cause. Something he believes in deep down. A chance to relive his childhood fantasy of playing Captain Nemo.

I enjoyed the chat he had with Janeway. It's not often you see those two together. It was a nice scene. Was that a little bit of chemistry between the two Ginny?

I liked these aliens, especially the one that rode with Tom. I wonder what happened to him. Consigned to prison perhaps? Maybe he got a slick lawyer and made like he was Tom's prisoner.

My biggest nit of the show was the torpedo impact. Did Voyager know what Paris was planning? I was under the impression they were firing the torpedo as a depth charge against the Delta Flyer. Instead it miraculously hits the torpedo Tom fired. Talk about needle in the haystack. Talk about writers not remembering what they started just a few moments earlier.

All in all, a great show. The FX were well done and a good story to boot.

My how we've come a long way from the Trilogy of Terror.

Mike -- 10 Dec 1998, 2:06 PM

Mr. Paris takes a dive...

As usual, I'm writing this before reading everyone else comments. As a whole the episode was good but not great. It certainly had some great individual scenes that put it above average. For instance I enjoyed Janeway's intensity and the way she dealt with Tom for defying her direct orders. Sure we all like Mr. Paris, but he had no right to defy his captain's direct orders and he had no right to defy the ruling government of a planet where they were guests. BTW, Kate looked exceptionally beautiful in this episode (sigh). I still say she's one of the prettiest women to ever walk the deck of a starship
(along with Kes).

Likes:

-It was great to finally see the Delaney sisters. Unless I missed something, this is the first time they were shown. At least it's the first time I've ever seen them. I was surprised to see the new characters in Captain Proton turned out to be the twins. I just wish we could have found out what they had in store for the more than willing Mr. Kim. They certainly are two lookers, second in beauty only to Kate (of the current crew, IMHO). I thought Tom's worst offense in this episode was interrupting poor Harry right when things were going to get interesting with the Delaney twins, THAT should have been the demotion offense for Mr. Paris ;^). Hey, guys, what did you think of the twins? Pretty hot, no?

-Garrett Wang's acting continues to impress me this season. Elaine and I are both starting to like Harry Kim now. He didn't even act like a dork with the Delaney's, that's a far cry from the old Harry Dim. Harry is really developing nicely this season.

-I liked the bit with Tom writing the letter to his father, explaining what happened. I also like the little jab Harry gave him to talk him into finishing the letter. Harry said something like "didn't your father always say, you never finish what you start?" Of course, on the other hand, Harry, he did just risk his life to make a stand for what he believed (right or wrong). I'd call that finishing something you started, even if it was ill fated.

-I liked seeing someone get a demotion and jail time for defying orders for a change. It seems more real to me than the usual overlooking of reprimands. Picard probably would have done the same as Kate. I'm just sorry it was Tom that was made the example. He'll do something spectacular now to get in Kate's favor, save the ship and get promoted again (I hope not). The only other demotion of a main character I remember is Kirk from admiral to captain, but for him it was a blessing.

-I really liked that scene of Tom flying through space as Captain Proton. After all, who needs space helmets when you're playing a hero from 1920s 1930s films.

Dislikes:

-Kate was a little too willing to blow-up Tom to stop him. Tom was wrong, but Kate should remember that no one was necessarily going to die as a result of his actions so why threaten to kill him in order to stop him. Even Captain Sulu seemed more reluctant to destroy Chakotay and Harry (people he hardly knew) when they attempted to change the time-line. To me that was a much greater offense than Tom's.

-Tom still has a lot of growing up to do before he belongs in a Starfleet uniform. Seems like he still likes to rebel against authority, even more than the ex-Maquis do.

-The doc has a real mean streak the way he ribbed Tom about how good the new pilot was. At least Tom had some good come back lines.

All in all, this episode had its minor flaws, but I still enjoyed it. This season has been top notch so far.

Eric -- 10 Dec 1998, 8:44 PM

Proof that Mike is senile!!! AT LAST!

Mike rambled on to long and said : Even Captain *Sulu* seemed more reluctant to destroy Chakotay and Harry (people he hardly knew) when they attempted to change the time-line. To me that was a much greater offense than Tom's.

LOL!

Sorry old timer that was Captain GEORDI that was after Alternate Chak and Harry! Sulu had been dead for YEARS!

There, there why don't you just climb back in your iron lung old timer I'll get your meds ;-P

Mike -- 11 Dec 1998, 9:42 AM

Geesh, I make one little mistake and the Whippersnapper pounces on me. You're right of course (for a change ;^), don't know what I was thinking. You picked on that and didn't even mention my tribute to Kes. BTW, I'm glad to see you're in the holiday spirit of peace and good will towards men (PC alert: women too) :^).

Mike (senile my a_s :^)

Shawnster -- 10 Dec 1998, 11:27 PM

Tyrant Janeway. Absolute governments (tho' the disgrace of human nature) have this advantage with them, that they are simple; if the people suffer, they know the head from which their suffering springs, know likewise the remedy, and are not bewildered by a variety of causes and cures.

---Thomas Paine from "Common Sense"

Several have called into account Janeway's actions in demoting Tom:

She allowed personal anger to cloud her judgement. He let her down on a personal level and her response seems borderline vindictive. Many Air Force Officers' are required to memorize the following quote (given by Gen Schoefield at West Point in 1861):

"The discipline of a free soldier is not to be gained by harsh or tyrannical treatment. On the contrary, such treatment is far more likely to destroy rather than create an army"

She went beyond firm, she crossed the line of tyrannical. Did she engender crew loyalty from her actions? Did she bolster discipline? Debatable. Her steps: stop his plan, put him in the brig, and demoted him. I'll buy the first two but not the last. Her duty was to stop Tom and a weapon was required. Her statement to Harry "he forfeited his rights", however true, was spoken in anger. Sending him to the brig was also appropriate. He needed to be disciplined and think about his actions. Keeping him in "solitary" was necessary for introspection. The demotion in rank was arbitrary and capricious. She was pissed and wanted to immediately make an impact. The time-honored concept of graduated punishment was ignored. You almost never demote an officer (although enlisted personnel have been know to "loose a stripe" after REPEATED offenses). This particular punishment was especially uneven. Tuvok disobeyed a direct order & violated the PD in Season 1 (and gets a talking-to), Chakotay stole a shuttle to chase Seska (no consequences), Seven disobeys direct orders as a hobby (and gets sent to her cargo-room), and Neelix lies (and gets to scrub the plasma manifolds).

I thought captain's generally held "mast" (discipline hearings) in the company of several senior officers. Somehow, my expectations aren't very high.

Did anyone else notice that Janeway just busted and confined Paris for attempting to do the *exact* same thing she did in Night?

In Night, we have an alien race that's dumping toxic waste into another alien race's domain. Janeway tries to solve things nicely at first, showing the dumper how he can dispose of his waste without damage to these other aliens. But he's not going to take Federation advice and plans to continue his nasty ways. So Voyager comes up with a way to use the alien's vortex and yet destroy it behind them.

In Thirty Days, we have an artificially constructed water world. It is inhabited by people who *found* and settled it 300 years ago. They have a problem with losing containment, and Voyager sets out to help solve the problem.

They give the current inhabitants information on how to solve their problem. They get *very* strong indications that the inhabitants are *not* going to use their solution, but instead continue their environmentally irresponsible ways, essentially destroying the world.

So what do they do? Do they investigate further, attempt to find out who created the world and why? Attempt to analyze the denizen they encountered, and find out whether or not they're sentient beings? Nope, they're just going to go on their merry way, and let the later settlers destroy the world at their leisure.

Kate was a little too willing to blow-up Tom. Tom was wrong, but Kate should remember that no one was necessarily going to die as a result of his actions.

In short, Captain Janeway's actions were hypocritical, vindictive and demoralizing. No board of inquiry was called and no other flag officers were present. Paris wasn't even given a chance to defend himself.

Janeway has subtly shifted from Starfleet officer to tyrant and queen of Voyager. Her word is law and no dissention will be tolerated. During season one, Tuvok disobeyed her direct orders and violated the Prime Directive when he gave the Sikarians stories in exchange for their technology in "Prime Factors," yet he never spent time in the brig. Now, Tom acts in a similar fashion to what Janeway did in "Night" and she demotes him and makes him spend 30 days in the hole.

The difference? Janeway has no superiors to answer to. She runs this ship and it will run her way. The stress and strain of five years lost have taken their toll.

Maybe mutiny is in order. Clearly Janeway has lost her focus and direction. She is so driven to get her crew home, she's lost sight that she's just the captain. Now she envisions herself as guardian; mother; queen or deliverer, leading her people home to the promised land.

Sue_B -- 11 Dec 1998, 9:03 AM

Shawnster-

One has to wonder if this current trend is intentional, a reflection of a new writing staff, or just a series of plot devices. Then again, maybe it's the hair (as in bad hair day).

Remember when she had the needles driven headache in Scientific Method? When she was in a bad mood she seems to berate herself for not keeping up discipline ("shall I flog them as well?").

If this is intentional: A meltdown is coming and this is very long foreshadowing. Someone needs to tell the Captain to lighten up. She's been in a foul mood since Night and she needs a little joy. Seriously, she acts like a person who is muddling thru a deep depression. She's okay on the surface but is venting her anger here and there. I don't believe a mutiny is warranted or good. I just think crew morale is going to suffer if she doesn't solve her personal demons.

If this is just a reflection of the new writing staff: They ought to take the time to tie up loose ends with a couple of Janeway philosophizing speeches. Exactly where is she coming from now as compared to where she was a year or two ago.

If this is a series of plot devices: KNOCK IT OFF. The Captain is so integral to the series, you need that character to be relatively predictable in their morals and fundamental perspective. It seems pretty sloppy these days.

My two cents.

Mike -- 11 Dec 1998, 2:58 PM

I could not disagree more, Shawn...but frankly, I just don't have it in me any longer to explain all I found wrong with what you and Eric said (and believe me, there was a lot). Call it a copout if you like. To me it's silly to say "mutiny is in order". Yeah right, Janeway should just say, defy my orders crew, steal what you like, do what you like, I have no control and will not punish you. Remember, it was Janeway who got Tom out of prison and gave him his bridge rank in the first place, so it seems justified to me that she has the power to demote him a rank. Let's face it, if Star Fleet protocol was meant to be top priority in this series, Tom would never have been a bridge crew member in the first place, neither would Chuck, B'Ellana, Seven ....

Can you honestly tell me that Picard under similar circumstances would not have done the same thing? Or is he also a tyrant for expecting orders to be followed?

I just want to go on record as disagreeing and leave it at that (sigh).

Jason -- 11 Dec 1998, 4:29 PM

I feel the same way, Mike...

Arguments against the Janeway administration usually have obvious flaws. There were points I could pick at at this one as well but it's gotten to a point where I'm too tired to do it.

I may still pick at a few points in this thread but at this point I think it suffices just to say "I disagree", and leave the debate up to people who haven't already put in their two cents.

Ginny -- 12 Dec 1998, 12:44 PM

*I'll* tell you what would have happened if Picard...was faced with the same situation. He would have stopped Tom with any means available, taken him prisoner, given him one of those interminable Picard lectures on right and wrong and the dignity of humanoid life-forms everywhere, thrown him into the brig, warped him post-haste back to Earth, and turned his insubordinate ass over to Starfleet for court-martialling. And then our darling Tom would have done time...again.

Kathryn's response is moderated in recognition of her unwillingness to waste a body when crewmembers are in such short supply. So she only demotes Tom, rather than courtmartialling him, and gives him 30 days solitary confinement.

Under the circumstances, it's better than he deserves.

Eric -- 11 Dec 1998, 11:29 AM

Good old fashioned Janeway bashing like Mama used to bake! Thanks for getting the wreaking ball swinging Shawn! Now it's my turn!

So let's see :

Janeway forgets it's a Captain's duty to protect her crew and strands them in the Delta Quad in Caretaker...
....but it's TOM in the brig?

Janeway goes off on a personal vendetta for Chuck and as a consequence loses her ship and has to sleep in a cave...
...but Tom gets a demotion!

Janeway kills Tuvix just to get her friends back...
...but Tom's in the slammer!

Janeway makes a deal with the BORG!!!
....but Tom spends 30 days in the Brig!

Janeway kidnaps a sentient being from another race and tries to brainwash her into becoming another Janeway....
...but Tom's the bad guy!

Janeway blames a rape victim for being attacked and feels more remorse over the RAPIST'S death then the victim...
...but Tom gets jail time.

And finally Janeway has broken the prime directive more then ANY other Captain in just 5 years in the DQ
...but Tom gets busted for trying to save a planet from a corrupt government.

Hey, I guess she didn't have enough time to take a poll. Janeway should have her a$$ busted down to Janitor when the get back to the AQ. Damn, that felt good! I have been holding back WAY to long.

Carol -- 11 Dec 1998, 1:58 PM

Eric, you're generalizing. :-)

A lot of those points have nothing to do or are in any relation as to how Tom got busted in comparison to the the things you listed Kate's done (IMO).

I do agree that the demotion scene played a little too personally though. I'd make a point-by-point analysis, but I don't have the time (I'm in class and I'm supposed to be paying attention to a lecture right now. :-)

Eric -- 11 Dec 1998, 2:24 PM

I don't think so Carol ... I think it has EVERYTHING to do with 30 Days, Carol.

Taken by itself 30 days is a decent enough episode. A subordinate goes against his CO and gets smacked down for it. We have seen it all before, but when you put it in context with the last 4 YEARS of Voyager it falls apart very quickly.

How the H@LL can i accept *Janeway* of ALL captains chewing out Tom for not following the rules when she is crazier the Norman F###ing Bates??? She has more bats in her belfrey then Batman!

THAT is the pointy i was making. Tom might be a former prisoner but Janeway is the one that belongs in the slammer.

Eric - i just LOVE being the heavy :-)

Carol -- 11 Dec 1998, 8:30 PM

I don't have time to go inot this right now point for point and point out all the holes in your comparisons, finals begin next week and I'm swamped. So I'll just do one.

Tuvix -- Janeway killing Tuvik and Tom getting busted have almost no relation whatsoever. Janeway killing Tuvix and breaking the PD (though I don't really see it as deeply braking it) was a situation that directly affected not only Tuvix's life, but the lives of Tuvok and Neelix respectively. Forget about the fact that a lot of people didn't like both charcters at the time: it was a situation that affected two of her crewmembers lives -- and as I said, Janeway usually throw the PD out the windo if the situation A) Directly affects a crewmember of the intire crew of Voyager or B) the AOTW asks for her help.

The situation in 30 days didn't fall into either of these categories. Tom basically rides off like John Wayne and takes the whole situation into his hands, putting Voyager at risk of *again* getting attacked by the AOTW *this time* giving them provocation to. It was a selfish act by Tom, going off on some sort of personal hero mission that, unlike all of Janeway's past actions of braking the PD, was helping a group of people who didn't even *ask* for his help. Janeway's actions might have ended Tuvix's life, but they restored the lives of two people who didn't volunteer to give up their lives in the first place.

Anyway, read what Jason and Mike wrote as they've both said almost everything I would have anyway in regards to some other things (in this thread and the 30 Days thread too).

Janeway was justified in punishing Tom. If she didn't, she would have anarchy on the ship. She's the Captain and all Captain's from Kirk to Picard on have to keep control.

Mike -- 11 Dec 1998, 2:40 PM

Shawn and Eric, you guys are kidding, right?...Janeway specifically told Tom why they couldn't interfere, then she asked him if he understood and he responded that he did. He later defied direct orders from his captain and he even went so far as to steal the Delta Flyer for an unauthorized mission. He could have involved Voyager in a war for his own personal reasons. Janeway could have court-martialed Tom, she was lenient just knocking him down a rank and giving him thirty days. Lets face it, it only bothers us cause we all like Tom so much.

The only problem I had with Janeway's actions (in this episode), was how easily she seemed ready to kill Tom if she couldn't stop him. The demotion and thirty days were nothing and certainly justified. The bottom line is Tom stole a shuttle, could have started a war, and he ignored a direct order.

As for Eric's rant, it's so full of holes I won't even waste time pointing them out. You're exaggerating big time with your Janeway bashing, Whippersnapper. Some one else is going to have to point it out why you're wrong, I've been through it to many times. Sounds like Carol may do it.

Eric -- 11 Dec 1998, 2:55 PM

Janeway was WAY out of line... Oh please Mike, your so blinded by Janeway's beauty (gag! :-) ) that you can't see when she is clearly wrong!

I'm NOT saying Tom was guilty, he was, but what I AM saying is how can Janeway judge him?? She has NO RIGHT to do this given her actions of the last 5 years. And please, I can hear you typing this response :

She's the Captain...

Bullcrap! I had a hard enough time choking the logic down 5 years ago in Caretaker, Mike! If she was REALLY the Captain she would have taken the Caretaker taxi home! Kirk told us his first responsibility is his crew in Trek 6 and I believe him. But I was willing to think that Janeway followed a different voice...

...boy does she EVER! She breaks the rules, the Prime Directive and even makes alliances with the Federations greatest enemy!

Yes Tom stole a shuttle.

Yep, he risked angering the AOTW's with his attack on the power station.

But WHO'S lead was he following Mike?

And what is Janeway's response? Try to kill him and when she failed to do that throw him in the brig with one less pip. Sorry Mike I think she was WAY out line this time.

Mike -- 11 Dec 1998, 3:31 PM

Let's put it this way, Whippersnapper...I just don't have it in my right now to go into a long explanation of why Janeway was justified in 'Caretaker' and 'insert other episode names'...,and yadda, yadda, yadda. We've been through it all before many times. I know the writers have had her do some really stupid stuff sometimes in the past. Why just last week I was criticizing Kate and Terry was defending her! She is written very inconsistently. I think Terry once said something like "it seems they just write Captain Janeway to fit the plot of each individual episode and not to be consistent with past episodes" (sorry if I was wrong about that paraphrase, Terry). I agree with that comment someone made, whoever it was. If we take this episode and stand it alone, Janeway was perfectly justified in demoting a crew member who did what Tom did. The problems is, Kate should have done this to other crew members in past episodes(punished them to suit the crime) so we now use those past lenient actions as a reason for her to not punish anyone severely now (justified or not).

Anyway, I didn't want to get into a lengthy written discussion on this. If you decide not to wimp out and do go to the CN gathering in FL. this May, we'll discuss Janeway's merits and faults over a couple of beers (Bud for me and root beer for you of course ;^), right now I just don't feel like a long written debate. I just wanted to go on record as agreeing with her actions demoting Tom in this episode, hopefully someone else will have the energy and motivation to take up the cause further.

Paris/Aslar -- 12 Dec 1998, 7:58 AM

Eric you're Right, Janeway was WAY out of line...

You know Eric if it were Kirk he would have been the one in the shuttle, and Picard would have done something himself as well, and I don't know about Sisko, but he wouldn't have demoted Paris, just yelled at him, and say "I would have done the same thing" as he left. But as we can see from episodes of TNG like Peguses, sometimes the give command to people that shouldn't have it, or are not ready for it. I like Janeway, but she went way to far this time, if she wants to go on this sorta power trip then why didn't she lock Seven in the Brig for a year when she beamed Species 8472 to the Hunters ship. Are Demoted Chakotay when he help the Borg in "Unity". I think the writers need to get there heads outta there a$$es and really look at what they have done IMHO.

Sorry for the rant, but I think she shouldn't have demoted him, maybe take away his holo and pizza privileges for 30 days, but not this.

Ginny -- 12 Dec 1998, 12:56 PM

You've got to be kidding.

How can you possibly equate Seven's actions with Tom's and expect commensurate discipline? Seven was barely human and still thinking in Borg terms of the collective good when she beamed Species 8472 over to the Hirogen ship. Tom is a dang officer, for Pete's sake, and a Starfleet brat, in the bargain. He's overwhelmingly more culpable for his insubordination than Seven. In addition, what Seven did in HUNTERS, she did to save the Voyager crew. What Tom did in THIRTY DAYS put the crew at considerable risk of war with the Minoans. There's no comparison.

And there's no way in hell that Picard would have stolen a Starfleet vessel and fired, unprovoked, on the infrastructure of a peaceful society capable of self-determination. He would have taken the diplomatic route--as he has done a thousand times before.

Paris/Aslar -- 12 Dec 1998, 2:18 PM

Seven knew that doing such a thing would not be what Janeway would want, but yet she did it anyway, because she personally believed that no good could come of helping 8472. She was human, and she will always think like a Borg, that's all she'll ever be, but she knows what is expected of her, and what she is suppose to do. She also disobeyed an order, she would not open the rift that Janeway told her to do, she may not be in Star Fleet but she is on Janeway's ship she should have done what she wanted.

What Tom did did nothing to put Voyager at risk, Voyager out matches the Minoans. He did what he believed in, and he was asked to help, not by a government, but by a citizen of the planet, that knew that his government would do nothing because they are afraid of change. (like our world) Because he knew if he didn't do something then nothing would be done.

Picard would have done the same thing, because be a diplomat wasn't working, Janeway and Tom tried to show what happen if they didn't change there ways. Because of this Picard would have taking matters into his own hands when Rega asked for help. He has done it in the past, just as Kirk has done. And you know if Data did this he wouldn't punish him, he would just talk to him. I think that maybe Janeway has something against men, she has never punished a woman. We know that B'Elanna and Seven have done things that warrant punishment but she just gives them a slap on the wrist.

Ginny -- 12 Dec 1998, 2:31 PM

Let me get this straight.

Paris/Aslar wrote:
What Tom did did nothing to put Voyager at risk, Voyager out matches the Minoans.

So...it's all right to fire upon a peaceful, civilized society that offers you no direct threat, if you're sure that you can whip it's ass, should the government of said society object to having it's sovereignty impugned and its people and/or property destroyed. Sorry, Paris/Aslar, but that's the most insupportable rationalization for what Tom did that I've heard yet.

And you're completely wrong about Picard. He has never disobeyed the orders of his superiors to take armed military action against a legitimate, non-oppressive government at the behest of a terrorist. If you think he has, please name the episode.

TomParis -- 12 Dec 1998, 3:42 PM

Sorry Ginny but you have misunderstood yet another thing. You said that since he put the crew of Voyager in Danger that he deserves what he gets, and all I said was that he did nothing to put the ship or crew in danger, in fact all he put in danger in that was his life, he wasn't doing anything to the Minoans that wouldn't happen in time, and that is destroying there air supply, he saved a world, you seem to forget that, even though he failed destroying the generators, he still brought awareness. He deserves a slap on the wrist just like Seven ets, like B'Elanna got, like Chakotay got. He in reality hasn't done anything wrist then they have done. And what Tom did wasn't a Terriorst Act period!

Picard has disobeyed direct orders from his higher ranking officers, he has broken the prime directive, he has broken the prime directive to help people. And because of all this I bet he would do what Tom did, but only after Rega asked him, just as he did Paris. And Kirk is no different he would do the same.

I just think Janeway can be a witch, and I think she has no right making some of the chooses she does, and this one was the last straw, I can't sit here and keep my mouth shut just to prevent a fight, or an argument. I think she needs to spend more time as a first officer, before she is captain, I like somethings she does but not all. She is more of a science officer, than anything else, that's what here basic back ground is, she should be off charting some new planet, or studing a star, she does't have the heart to do what she is doing. She acts to much like a vulcan and doesn't listen to her heart when heart or instincts enough. I'll drop this now before I say something that I shouldn't but this is the way I see it.

Mr. Mac. -- 12 Dec 1998, 4:01 PM

----TomParis WROTE----
Sorry Ginny but you have misunderstood yet another thing. You said that since he put the crew of Voyager in Danger that he deserves what he gets, and all I said was that he did nothing to put the ship or crew in danger

I'll have to disagree with this. Tom could have put the entire ship at war with the planet. Even though Voyager clearly outgunned the Minoans, they would have gone after Voyager with every trick they could muster up. In addition, their reputation in the Quadrant would be damaged irreparably, if it hasn't be completely shot already.

>>>he wasn't doing anything to the minoans that wouldn't happen in time, and that is destroying there air supply, he saved a world

Not knowing the political climate and other factors, Tom could have started a war within the planet. His actions could have had serious repercussions on the planet itself.

>>>He deserves a slap on the wrist just like Seven ets, like B'Elanna got, like Chakotay got.

He deserved what he got. Actually, the fact that he disobeyed Janeway's DIRECT order (several times!) deserves a more serious punishment than what he got. There is no excuse for this well-trained and experienced officer to do what he did.

Ginny -- 12 Dec 1998, 4:17 PM

----TomParis WROTE----
Picard has disobeyed direct orders from his higher ranking officers, he has broken the prime directive, he has broken the prime directive to help people. And because of all this I bet he would do what Tom did, but only after Rega asked him, just as he did Paris. And Kirk is no different he would do the same.

I'm still waiting for specifics, TomParis. Cite me one situation where Picard did anything even close to as insubordinate, reckless, or ill-advised as Tom Paris in THIRTY DAYS. You won't be able to, because he never did.

You'll notice that I didn't argue with you about Kirk, because Kirk often took foolish, reckless, PD-adverse (although THIRTY DAYS didn't really involve a PD issue, IMO) actions, but he was one of the luckiest sob's in the Alpha Quadrant, so he got away with most of it. Nevertheless, he was once demoted for disobeying the direct orders of his superior officers.

Tom's just lucky Kathryn didn't completely strip him of his rank and stick him in the brig for a couple of years, instead of 30 days. Frankly, as angry as she was, I still think she has a soft spot for him, and it influenced her decision to be lenient.

D'Alaire -- 12 Dec 1998, 5:09 PM

I'm curious, Mr. Mac, what you would suggest.

I'm going to stay wishy washy on this topic, but this is just a curiosity in response to many things that have been mentioned.

Janeway scared the bolts out of me, gunning after Tom, though I totally understand why she would. She had to do what she did, in all of it, as Captain of the ship. It was the way she went after him that gave me the creeps. Her extreme postures and mood swings have been scaring me for several weeks now. Doesn't make her wrong, just scary.

I wish Tom's cause had been a more...immediately life-threatening cause, not to mention something more pertinent to his character somehow.

But Tom, in this ep, did seem to truly believe in what he was doing, and went through with it knowing the consequences. I think he grew from taking a stand in itself, learned to face his own conscience and accept himself more, and for himself, no one else.

He accepted the fact that he would never meet those standards his father pressed upon him--could never accept or be happy living against his conscience, accepted he'd never truly be Starfleet material in his heart, perhaps. To come to this realization was growth, IMO. It doesn't excuse his actions, but it gives a genuine purpose to them.

But I also think he got what he deserved, considering the outcome.

(I also think I would have said the same thing, had I been B'Elanna. When a friend of mine is considering sides and their conscience is racked, I have always asked, "But what do you feel is right? Figure that out and you'll have your answer." So, burn me at the stake. I thought she said the right thing, making him face himself, accept that it was okay to take a stand. He was the one who chose to act on that stand. I'm sure she had her reasons, considering last week, for saying it how she did, but that's another matter entirely. In short, her support of his taking contol of his own situation didn't surprise me.)

But I'm curious, after reading the other thread, Leonie's posts and now yours, what might you suggest as a fitting punishment for the outcome?

We don't know what happens to the Maneans. We don't know what would have happened if Tom hadn't acted. We don't know if anything he did made a difference either. So that's to the wind.

Riga believed the council would do nothing, and Tom believed that. Okay. I don't like the topic, but I'll buy that Tom believed in it, and had strong, conscience-driven feelings about it. Janeway trusted he'd obey her, and he broke that trust. He flew on his instinct (not really a wise thing, true) and encouaged Riga to ask for help, and made do on his beliefs, broke orders several times and fired on the AOTW refinery with the intent to shut it down. He wasn't trying to hurt or kill anyone, though he may well have known it was a possibility. I don't think we know that.

Anyway, he was stopped, but his actions still stand, and he faced them, accepted the punishment he was given, accepted that Janeway would have blown him to seaweed if she had to, accepted (with a humble and proper "Yes sir" to Tuvok in the end) his demotion.

What punishment would have fit? Removal of rank altogether? Double the the time in solitary? Drop him onto the nearest convenient planet and leave him there? (And I've just seen Ginny's suggestion. Okay. I can accept that POV, though I think thirty days was enough.)

Really, I'm still wishy washy and probably overlooking a thousand complexities that have already been posted. I feel there was right and wrong on all sides concerned, and so I'll never make a firm decision on it. That I do know.

But I'm curious what you'd have done if you were Janeway, in her position, under those circumstances, with those results, and knowing Tom as she did.

Mr. Mac. -- 12 Dec 1998, 6:48 PM

Top Five Better Ways to Punish Tom For Disobeying Orders

10) Flogging with a leather belt selected from Ginny's secret closet. Upon completion of punishment, belt will be returned to Ginny for display in her new House (of Wh0res Horrors).

9) For a period of one year, Leonie gets to wipe her glasses on the tail of his shirt every morning. "Turn around and bend over, Big Boy."

8) For one semester, Tom must pose naked for Tracy's and D'Alaire's art class. The TrekArt website becomes the Numero Uno most visited site on the WWW putting NudeTrek out of business. Even Eric checks it out (several times)

7) Tom is required to reenact all of D'Alaire's fanfic personally with the author. D'Alaire wants to make sure that her text is as accurate as possible.

5) Solitary confinement with Ruthie for a period of 30 Days. And she ain't teaching history in there. Funny thing. The redshirt security guard got bumped off the first day!

Ginny -- 12 Dec 1998, 5:25 PM

I'm not Mr. Mac, but I can offer an opinion--other than flogging.

If Tom had taken this sort of action back in the Alpha Quadrant, he would have been out of Starfleet. Period. Dishonorably discharged after a court-martial. Publicly disgraced. Possibly subject to prosecution for any one of a number of local criminal violations, for which he would certainly have been convicted and sentenced.

So anything short of being stripped of his rank, losing his commission, being forceably put off a Starfleet vessel, and not getting locked up for years in a Minoan (or is it Manean?) prison is gravy. He's almost as lucky as Jim Kirk.

And I don't think he learned that much. It isn't enough that he believed that what he was doing was right. So do most terrorists. (I don't buy the saboteur distinction, Terry.) He never acknowledges how completely misguided and inappropriate his actions were. So he takes his punishment like a little trooper. Big deal. He's probably thanking his lucky stars that the Minoans didn't demand (or didn't have the firepower to insist) that he be turned over for processing through their judicial system.

And that's my opinion.

D'Alaire -- 12 Dec 1998, 5:35 PM

Okay. That's a nice, strong opinion. Thanks. (NIM)

Terry -- 12 Dec 1998, 6:25 PM

Little distressed about the use of the word terrorist for Tom. I think that people are using it to add extra emotional punch to their criticisms of Tom Paris' actions.

Tom did not act as a terrorist and I challenge either Ginny or Jason provide details on why they think that label fits. It is quite clearly an erroneous label.

Using violence for political ends is not sufficient to qualify as terrorism. Terrorist use the the systematic application of violence to terrorize and intimidate not only their political opponents but third parties whom they regard as collaborators. Sabotage is an action taken which physically limits or redirects your opponents actions.

Let's take an example. Tom assassinates that Monoen representative, with the intent of scaring the Moneon government into doing things his way. Terrorism. He blows up (or threatens to blow up) a crowded apartment building or a ferry to get the media's attention to his demands that the Moneon government stop damaging the ocean. Terrorism. He takes the Moneon representative hostage and demands that Voyager's scientific analysis be presented to the Moneon people. Terrorism even if he never intends to harm the representative.

He destroys a plant to force the government to redesign them to be more environmentally friendly. Criminal. Sabotage. But not terrorism. Technically, not even if he blows it up along with its workers. (Which he never intended but things don't always go as intended.)

Methods count as much or more as motives. Most terrorist group in today's society really have altruistic or sympathetic overall goals. Independence for their people, a halt to discrimination, a better life for poor people, etc. But it is their methods make them despicable. Most terrorist hold life very cheap: their enemies', bystanders', and their own.

I am not defending Tom's actions. They were illegal and could have killed innocent people. But use words correctly or don't use them at all. There was no use of terror as a weapon at all.

Frankly, I always had a problem with Starfleet's use of the terrorist label on the Maquis. They obviously did perform some isolated terrorist actions. But their primary acts were ones of defense against an armed and hostile foe. Does anyone think Chakotay or his group committed any atrocities?

Ginny -- 13 Dec 1998, 12:35 PM

Very well, Terry. If it upsets you so...I will no longer refer to Tom as a terrorist, even though he used violence to achieve an end, which is part of the defintion of terrorist found in the American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language.

D'Alaire -- 12 Dec 1998, 6:44 PM

I agree with your definitions, Terry. I thought terrorism was too strong a word as well, especially given that definition and your examples.

The Maquis? Let me think on that. I would not have called them terrorists, per se, either, but it's an interesting point you bring up.

Mike -- 12 Dec 1998, 6:52 PM

Let's see what Mr. Webster has to say, Terry....here it is:

Terrorism-the use of force or threats to intimidate, etc., esp. as a political policy.

Now lets see what the definition of sabotage is.

Sabotage-[from damage done to machinery by sabots] deliberate destruction of machines, etc. by employees in labor disputes or by railroads, bridges, etc. by enemy agents or by underground resistance.

Judging by these two definitions, I completely agree with Terry. What Tom did, was definetly not a terrorist act. It was more a form of sabotage.

Now to get ready for 'Starship Troopers'. It's coming on HBO in ten minutes. I never did get a chance to see it at the movies. I hope it's good. At least the admission price is right :^).

D'Alaire -- 12 Dec 1998, 6:52 PM

ROOAAAARR!!!!--#'s 8 & 7!!!--I wish!!!
So when are you donning your red wig and shaving that moustache, Mr. Mac? ; )

Mr. Mac. -- 12 Dec 1998, 7:01 PM

Alaire wrote:
So when are you donning your red wig and shaving that moustache, Mr. Mac? ; )

I only do that on Friday nights, D'Alaire. I have to wait for the dress to come back from the cleaners . . .

(Sorry to disappoint you D'Alaire. The 'stache is gone)

Terry -- 11 Dec 1998, 10:33 PM

Janeway was too lenient towards Tom in Thirty Days.

Why? Because he disobeyed direct orders, showed no remorse, and never gave any indication that he would not do it again. In all of the other case of disobedience cited in this thread, the offender was extremely contrite and promised to never to do it again. Not so Tom.

How can Janeway trust Tom again on an important away mission? He as much told her that if he disagrees strongly enough, he will disobey orders despite the consequences. She would be justified in busting Tom to a ordinary crewman and setting him to non-critical tasks until and unless he proves to her that he won't so wantonly disobey orders again.

Also note that most of the prior offenses were committed by new officers in their early days (except Tuvok). Janeway accordingly cut them some slack. I will admit that Janeway did a much better job disciplining the others. Usually, she expresses her disapproval without anger and lays a big-time guilt trip on them. The exception was with Seven in Prey; she showed her anger and thus ended up losing the argument. She should have attempted to convince Tom of the importance of respecting her authority.

And, Eric, yes, Janeway is the captain. She is the only one who gets to make the difficult calls concerning the safety of the ship and relations with aliens. In the DQ, she represents the Federation and Starfleet and acts on their behalf. The captain, not each crewman on his own.

Maureen -- 11 Dec 1998, 11:58 PM

A captain' gotta do what a captain's gotta do. Janeway's captaincy is different than any other. A makeshift crew, many of whom have not had the benefit of going through the Academy. She's had to adjust her command style. Sure, maintain the discipline of the service and try to mold them into a community with its goals and ideals, but recognize that at times, she's got to be flexible and creative in dealing with them. Being fair doesn't mean treating everyone the same way.

Mr. Paris, OTOH, is Star Fleet born and bred. She has a right to expect more of him. He understands the chain of command and knows the importance of following orders. Besides, the Captain has unfailingly supported him while on Voyager. He has to know that she considered his concerns, but made a command decision. For him to take matters into his own hands is unacceptable.

The only action of Janeway's that I felt indicated her personal disappointment was when she threw Tom's prison record back in his face. "I got you out of prison." That was unprofessional of her. Also, slightly inaccurate as to interpretation. In return for his help on Voyager's original mission, the Captain promised to help Tom at his next outmate review. She can hardly take credit for his being free the last 4 years.

Terry -- 12 Dec 1998, 2:39 PM

Kate flog Tom, Ginny?

I thought that we agree not to talk about Mistess Janeway's Secret Logs in public anymore.

"Spank me, Captain Mistress, I've been naughty."

Ginny -- 12 Dec 1998, 12:30 PM

Amen, Terry! I was beginning to think that I was the only one...who thought Kathryn went too easy on Tom. Consider what he did: He stole a potentially irreplacable piece of state-of-the-art equipment, he repeatedly disobeyed a direct order, and he opened fire on the infrastructure of a peaceful civilization, which action could have had the readily forseeable consequence of plunging the Voyager crew into an armed conflict with the Minoans . Added to that, if his actions had been successful, he would have violently disrupted an entire society based on nothing more than his own selfish notion of which life decisions that society ought to make and on what timetable. No subordinate officer on Voyager who has taken matters into his or her own hands has ever acted with such overwhelming arrogance or such complete disregard for the safety of the ship and crew.

Quite frankly, I don't blame Kathryn for being furious with him and letting him see it. *I* still think she should have had him flogged.

Jason -- 10 Dec 1998, 8:50 PM

"Dear Dad... I'm in jail but it's not what you think..." ???
Paris tells his father in his letter that his reason for being in jail is "not what he thinks".

But, knowing the reason why Paris was sent for the slammer, I have to ask... what would Admiral Paris be thinking?

--Tom disobeyed his Captain's orders (repeatedly)
--Stole the Delta Flyer
--Violated the Prime Directive
--Resorted to terrorism

What, in Admiral Paris' eyes could be worse?

Tom's opinion of his dad has always been somewhat that he's a stern bureaucrat. With this in mind, I failed to see how he could find his son's actions commendable or admirable. Not only did he violate a number of Starfleet's most sacred values (trust in command structure, Prime Directive) but I find it hard to believe that his "if at first you don't succeed, resort to force" way of solving the problem would be anything that would make him proud of his son. If anything his actions in this episode would only cement Admiral Paris' opinion of his son, not make him more sympathetic to him. We saw Tom act
dishonorably and against the way he had been raised. So was Tom just joking when he tried to make it sound like his incarceration was an honorable one or is there something I'm missing?

Ginny -- 11 Dec 1998, 7:47 AM

I think the point Biller was trying to make, Jason....is that the last time Tom got thrown in jail (at least, the last time of which the Admiral is aware), it was for being involved in a terrorist action with a group of Maquis--a group with which it has never been shown that Tom had any particular philosophical or emotional affinity. He was, for all intents and purposes, a mercenary.

This time, he ends up in jail for acting on what he truly believed was right and not just because the people he was helping were paying him. Although, in the circumstances of this story, I'm not sure that this distinction has the intense emotional resonance that Biller may have intended, mainly because Tom, though well-meaning, was absolutely wrong from the word "go".

Terry -- 11 Dec 1998, 9:43 PM

Well, Tom later realized his mistake.

As he told Harry, he later realized that he couldn't really explain his actions to his father in a way to make his father approve. And as he states at the end of the letter, the final purpose was simply to explain himself and make his father understand him even if he doesn't approve.

So you could make the case that Tom grew in maturity in that one way. Just as he took action against the wishes of his new better "father" (Janeway), he now decides to face his father more honestly. Instead of blindly seeking approval, he just openly reveals his soul to his father and is ready to accept what results.

BTW, I wish to take strong exception to your use of the word, terrorist. This word is not only emotionally-laced with strongly negative connotations unfairly applied to Tom, it also simply false. Terrorism is defined as "the systematic use of terror to achieve political ends." Paris' actions were violent; he intended to destroy property in a manner which could have killed people. But that is more appropriately called sabotage. Tom was not attempting to intimidate or coerce through through random acts of violence.

That said, I think that his actions were illegal efforts to thwart the decisions of the Minoan government and Janeway was completely justified in her actions to stop him. Let's just not go overboard slamming Paris, Jason. He's Tom Paris, not Tomas the Jackal.

Ginny -- 12 Dec 1998, 3:05 PM

Now, now, Terry.

I was thinking merely in terms of carrying out the 19th century sailing ships theme. Of course, Kathryn would never have implemented any sort of corporal punishment--that simply isn't the Starfleet way. Although there are some stories on the internet that postulate that it might be the **eyebrows waggling** Maquis way.

Anyhoo, although I dip into a lot of questionable fanfic from time to time, a couple of visits to Mistress Janeway's realm were quite enough for me. I don't go there anymore for fear of endangering my mortal soul.

Leonie -- 12 Dec 1998, 3:13 PM

I fight authority and I probably always will
I fight authroity and I probably always will,
Well I've been doing it since I was a young lad and I always come out grinning,
I fight authority and I probably always will.

John (Cougar) Mellencamp

I thought it was ironic that this was the song that was playing on Mellencamp's Greatest Hits CD while I was reading this thread last night in a hurried attempt to catch up on what I missed last week.

I found that Thirty Days had great acting performances. RDM did a great job in terms of givning life to what Paris was thinking and feeling. I especially enjoyed the scenes between him and the captain. (Ginny I kept thinking of you the whole time. There really is a connection between Paris and the Captain and it does have its own spartk. However I still maintain that it is nothing compared to the fires that I've seen between the captain and first officer!!! :-P) In the begining when he was talking about his love of the oceans, during the confrontation and eventually during his demotion. Wang did a good job as the best friend who was concerned and practiced tough love in getting Tom to do what he should have done. RD did a great job as the concerned and supportive girlfriend (Thanks for Captian Proton Clip Terry with the two of them.) Last week it was pretty obvious that they were lovers and this week it was obvious that they were intimate friends. I loved the ending when she invited him to dinner (at as someone said 7 am?). She wanted to show him not only that she was proud of him for what he did, but it didn't matter to her that he was only an ensign now. (Well at least now he knows how Chakotay feels about dinner invitations which are given as orders :-P )

The CGI was great and the concept of a whole planet full of water and supporting a civilization intrigued me. I would have loved to see how people interacted with each other, how they got around from place to place and how they built their civilization, but I understood that it could not have been done in this episode as it was not pertinent to the story. I must admitt, I thought it would have been cool if this was Plastic Buggie Homeworld (From Nothing Human), it would have truely been alien (at least by trek standard) I also liked the fact that the enemy that lurked below was a natural inhabitant of the waters that they just never saw before because they had never been down there. I did begin to wonder who really built this world.

And the story.....

The story sucked wind and then if that weren't enough it proceeded in a loud manner to blow chuncks......

My problem is that i don't know who to blame for it. I can't blame RDM for it. His performance and the performance of everyone else was exactly what I had expected.

I don't know if I should blame the directors. I did like the way the story was filmed, the way that we went back to Tom's childhood and we heard the interaction between him and his father and we got to delve deeper into Tom's childhood. The episode flowed, which is a lot more than I can say for "Once Upon a Time."

I alternate between blaming the writers and the characters themselves.

The writers because this was their big chance and they blew it. There could have been so much more to this episode which would have elivated it to the status of Nothing Human, but it w