Nothing Human

Jason -- 2 Dec 1998, 9:04 PM

Like NOTHING we've seen from Voyager in a long time. This is the Jeri Taylor of old that I really liked and that we had not seen in a long time while she needlessly resorted to writing horror episodes ("Coda") or romances, ("Day of Honor"), neither of which she was particularly good at.

Even dating back to TNG, Taylor had strengths in writing both Cardassians and morality plays. ("The Wounded", "The Drumhead".) On paper alone, "Nothing Human" was a promising mixture of the two. And like those episodes, Taylor delivered in this interesting and thoughtful show which showed more depth and points of views than we typically expect to see from Voyager. This was also the most season two-ish show since, well... season two, a season where Voyager's internal politics and crew relations were the most important part of the show. (In some ways, this show reminded me of Taylor's own "Alliances", but it also reminded me of last year's "Prey", and that's not because a few of the lines were repeated from that show. It's nice to see Voyager it taking itself more seriously as a community again.)

But what really worked about this show, especially given the context of this season was that this was a show that managed to be about something. Unlike "In the Flesh" which preceded it, this episode managed to take an issue-- medical ethics, and do it in both a dramatic and interesting way, where the issue was central to not only the plot but the character's perceptions of the issue. ("In the Flesh", IMO, dealt mostly with the characters reactions to the issue, the mutual mistrust and that's probably what would account for it's lack of excitement. "Nothing" accomplished to do both and do both well.) In many ways, this episode was the kind of show DS9 used to excel at but abandoned doing a few seasons back. In many ways this episode felt like old times.

And at last, for the first time since "Prey" I sense we have an episode we can argue about! How I miss those!

My position: I thought the Doctor's final judgement on Krell was hypocritical, especially since he endorsed Krell in the meeting before B'Elanna's surgery. It is wrong to use his methods and then, as Krell pointed out, suddenly condemn them. I'm interested in seeing why the Doctor made his decision. I sense he knows it's hypocritical but did it to appease the members of the crew who opposed it. By deleting it, perhaps he thought he was "doing no harm"-- that he had the sense that Krell's continued existence would only get some crewmembers very upset, and perhaps lead to more disturbing ramifications.

Like I said, I was impressed with the different angles in this episode. The scene where Janeway visited B'Elanna was unexpected but a pleasant surprise. Usually the ramifications of decisions made on Voyager are left hanging. It was nice to see some of the loose ends dealt with for a change. This scene kind of echoed "Extreme Risk" to me, but with the roles reversed. I'm sure Janeway will be criticized for her parting line to B'Elanna. I think Janeway regrets having to go over B'Elanna's head over her own body but was upset that B'Elanna could not seem to understand that allowing her to die despite the readiness of a treatment, just because the information was tainted was unacceptable. I have to side with (surprise, surprise) Janeway on this one-- could you imagine letting Torres die if she were under your command? Probably not. I sympathize with Torres' objections, and the right to deny treatment is a touchy issue, more so when it comes out of moral objection such as this than when it comes (as it usually does on television) out of a conflict of religion. I think Janeway could have been more tactful but was justified, in a personal sense for rebutting B'Elanna as she showed no gratitude at all to Janeway, almost as if her own life was worth nothing at all. I wonder if this is a leftover remnant of "Extreme Risk"?)

David Clennon as Krell was an adjustment... he wasn't a Cardassian we've come to expect, but when I think of the other Cardassians we've seen on Trek outside of the military and Garak, like the lawyer in "Tribunal" I think Clennon's performance is consistent. Everyone else delivered fine performances, except... well, that's another post coming tonight. (Hint: Boyish, yet balding.)

Overall, an interesting, dramatic and textured episode. It's good to see Taylor back.

D'Alaire -- 2 Dec 1998, 9:39 PM

Though I loved DOH, I somewhat agree with you, Jason. (I say somewhat because my brain isn't firing well just now -- I need to qualify most things at this point. I'm going to sleep soon.)

This first: It is great to have Taylor in the park again -- I've missed her, too.

Second: And to have something to argue about on the show -- very much missed as well (though I don't usually get involved in them, I love reading them).

My gushing for the very excellent RD/B'Elanna and for the P/T (about time we saw something nearing normality here!) is of course right here. RD was mesmerizing, as usual, but...just wonderful. Her interactions with everyone, especially Tom and Janeway, were just great.

That briefing room scene had my jaw dropping. Wow! And Doc with a dilemma is never unwelcome. The issue itself got long-winded for me, but it's a good one to thrash about. And refusing treatment is one I know quite well, too. It should be a good week for conversation.

I'll write more tomorrow--definitely time for bed--but I had to say at least that much. I knew somehow Taylor would not disappoint.

Leonie -- 2 Dec 1998, 9:17 PM

I'm all done in....... I've posted one rant for the day. I don't want to start another so I think I'll just leave the ethical bit alone and focus on the rest of the story.

The first part of the way the alien got "stuck" on B'Elanna was bad. The explanation was terrible and Janeway's decision to send out the message to the aliens was another one of her "brilliant" (read silly) ideas.

The actually drama and the decision of ethics, morals, responsibility and life was very good. I didn't agree with a lot of it, but it was well written and well thought out unlike the frame story (But then that is Jeri Taylor's style)

I'm not going to touch it. I still have a headache from screaming at the screen.

Well, I don't think that there was any doubt this week that P/T are a couple and they are in love. Great performances by RDM and RD.

Mama Janeway and Captain Janeway. My role model is back YAY!!!!

Well women, we've got our chest butting, spittle flying argument between Tom and Chak. Very nicely done. Kudos RDM(as usual) and RB

And I'm also not going to say anything about JetC. I can't argue any more I'm all done in.

I did like the episode and I know that I will watch it again. But not right now. I was hoping for a "Let's just slap the BAOTW" show, but this was as serious and as heady as the rest of this season besides "In the Flesh"

I don't know what it is, but Voyager has just lost it's zip for me this year.(More on that in the thread above)

Terry -- 2 Dec 1998, 9:27 PM

Nothing Human is this season's Living Witness. Only much better. This was a fascinating episode which examines an important yet mostly unexamined question about not only medicine but all scientific knowledge. Should knowledge obtained through despicable and inhumane (not human?) methods be used?

This episode had several tremendous scenes with highly intelligent dialogue skillfully delivered. My favorites were the discussion between Tom, Chakotay, Tuvok, and Janeway in the briefing room, the talk between Janeway and B'Elanna in her quarters, and the final discussion between Krell and the EMH.

The briefing room discussion succinctly presented all of the cogent arguments from the appropriate characters. Tom's argument was powerful and its emotional appeal made perfect sense for B'Elanna's lover. Chakotay's argument against using Cardassian medical experiments fit his Maquis background and his idealist bent. Tuvok? Okay, I felt that he could have gone either way but this might be a "The need of the many ..." deal. And Janeway's response was right on.

That was the Janeway that I know and love. In the crunch, she should and she did choose to save a member of the crew despite the ethical costs. I was afraid of another Random Thoughts cop-out. Choosing the moral high road might fit Picard but not Janeway.

Somehow the characterization of Janeway seemed excellent here. Even when Janeway sent the message out to a possibly hostile race and when she refused to fight, it seemed right. Not necessarily the best way to do things but the right way for her. And I appreciated meeting another race of aliens who really were more inexplicable than hostile. And they dealt with them only by actions. No words. I loved it.

I also loved the scene in B'Elanna's quarters. The two strongly disagreed and the differences were not papered over. B'Elanna has not and may not forgive the Captain for her actions. It left me wondering whether B'Elanna has any problems with Tom's actions as well. She might be willing to forgive a lover's interference more than her captain's. And it might make a difference that Tom had no real power to make the decision. Then again, it might be source of some real conflict between the two. I hope (but doubt) that this issue is dealt with again later.

Krell's final arguments on his behalf were excellently presented. This was one of the finer speeches since the Nazi in The Killing Game. (Boy, can these writers write sociopathic fascists, or what?) In fact, I think that he argued much more logically and effectively than did the EMH. The Doc did use Krell's knowledge when he needed it and only is deleting it when there is no current need.

The core of this episode was the ethical question posed by Voyager's use of knowledge obtained by inhumane methods. Does the origin of such knowledge matter? Should knowledge which can save lives be used without examining how it was obtained? Or is it more important to prevent medical experimentation by refusing to use it? Tough question without any perfect answer.

Strangely enough, this is not the first time that this tainted medical knowledge issue has been dealt with by Voyager. Not the TV show but the novel, Day of Honor by Jan Friedman (not to be confused with the episode or its novelization). That novel had an alien refusing to be cured by a vaccine developed by another Mengele-type alien doctor from experiments on prisoners of her species. Finally, she did consent when persuaded by the knowledge that the vaccine had been intended to aid the doctor's species and that using to help her own species instead was a kind of poetic justice.

Terry -- 2 Dec 1998, 9:39 PM

Nothing Human: Odds and Ends. Big, Obnoxious Continuity Nit: In Message in a Bottle, Harry was completely unable to program even a crude replacement program for the EMH. Here he whips one up by just issuing a few commands to the computer. And debugs it in 30 seconds. Don't these writers watch their own shows?

Smaller Nit: How can they place Seven in command over Engineering without making her a full-fledged member? Shouldn't she be wearing a regular uniform with some symbol of rank? Or at least assigned a rank of brevet lieutenant or something?

Naomi is everywhere! She was in a Campbell Rugrats Soup commercial right after the teaser. And I saw psychopathic isomorph Dejaren (Leland Orser) in the teaser for tomorrow's UPN movie, Piranha.

BTW, I loved the Doc's interminably boring slide show. Does anyone want a vidcap of Tommy covered head-to-toe in mud?

Bottom Line: Nothing Human was very different from Timeless but they are currently my co-favorites of the season. And possibly the best two Voyager eps of all-time. After she decided to retire, Jeri Taylor has written two consecutive great scripts, One and now this. Great script, very good guest star, excellent performances from Picardo, Mulgrew, McNeill, and Dawson. Even Beltran was good.

D'Alaire -- 2 Dec 1998, 9:51 PM

It's nice to know we agree again, Terry. Much as you seem to like the opposite sometimes. ; ) (snicker)

Yes, I didn't say that before. This ranks way up there for me, too, and I think when I rewatch, it'll likely be my favorite this season so far. A little lower on the all-time list, as the issue ran a bit long for me, but a good shot of everyone, of P/T, of Janeway and B'Elanna (wow), and that briefing room--yes, yes, yes.

And the soup commercial! Waah! LOL! I thought the same thing!

Terry -- 2 Dec 1998, 11:52 PM

Jason, I disagree somewhat about Doc and B'Elanna (and Tom?). I agree that the Doc was being hypocritical in his decision to delete Krell. But I didn't get the impression he was carrying through that decision because to assuage the concerns of the Maquis. Rather that he was just being ... well, hypocritical. He had no real answer to the truth contained about his own behavior and so ended the argument by shutting Krell up.

I also disagree about your belief that B'Elanna should have been grateful to Janeway. I agree that Janeway's decision was the correct one and was certainly in her nature. But B'Elanna has a perfect right to her decision not to be saved by medical knowledge obtained from the suffering of innocent Bajorans. By saving her (even without her consent or prior knowledge), B'Elanna now has to live with the guilt of being alive only because those people were tortured. B'Elanna should forgive Janeway but by no means should she be grateful.

One issue that was completely ignored was that of consent by the patient to a medical procedure. B'Elanna clearly stated her opposition to Krell operating on her. She appeared to be of sound mind at the time. The Doctor should have refused to let Krell operate, despite the Captain's orders. He refused her orders when they conflicted with his medical ethics in Tuvix.

BTW, Jason, you seem to be hinting that you thought McNeill was terrible here. I must emphatically disagree with that assessment. I thought that he was better than usual. He managed to convey his concern for B'Elanna without getting sappy. And managed to argue effectively, although emotionally, for the use of Krell to save her. And his whispered "Thank you" to Janeway was a very nice moment.

Jason -- 3 Dec 1998, 8:20 PM

RDM: He's this year's Garrett Wang. [uh-oh] Granted, I've never been enthusiastic about RDM or Tom Paris, with the exception of "Caretaker" but this year, with the rest of the cast finally shaping up (including Garrett Wang, who hasn't given a poor performance yet this year, whereas he used to bear the brunt of our criticism) Paris or rather McNeill are more and more beginning to stick out like a sore thumb.

I think McNeill gives the same performance every episode, whether he's playing Captain Proton or Tom you can barely detect any difference. I didn't think that he delivered his lines in a natural way in "Nothing Human", especially when he was trying to reason with B'Elanna when she refused treatment. He seemed to go overboard-- he was too involved with his own lines and didn't really exude any sense of caring, much less compassion for B'Elanna. Many of us often note that there's barely any chemistry between the two, but in this case there didn't need to be any romantic chemistry, and still there was barely any connection between them. Dawson by all measures played her part of the scene accurately and realistically so I have to give the blame to McNeill. Paris has settled in to his own little niche however McNeill doesn't seem to be bringing a lot to the character. One wonders how the actor would handle it if the character were ever put in a very dramatic situation like the Doctor in this episode. The TPTB are probably concerned that he'd do it fluffy like everything else and are probably worried about giving him that opportunity. Even in "Vis a Vis" he didn't take the opportunity to create a new character. Granted he was hindered by a sub par script but still, there was only the sense that McNeill was playing the same character yet again. Dan Butler showed more range in that episode, and he was the guest!

About B'Elanna in the final scene... I didn't mean to suggest she should have shown gratitude, but she should have been more understanding of why Janeway decided to save her life, and in that scene that wasn't there *at all*. It's by no means a fault of the episode, it only makes B'Elanna a little bit more interesting (that is, if her grudge is followed up on), but I think B'Elanna's *should* have acknowledged the fact that Janeway cared.

Terry -- 3 Dec 1998, 8:57 PM

I don't know what you've been watching, Jason, but IMHO, RDM has done more with less this season.

I thought that his acting definitely slipped late last season about the time of his weight gain. This coincided with his wife giving birth and the medical complications of both mother and son afterwards. Paris gave some very weak performances, especially in Demon and Vis À Vis, in which I felt that he phoned his performance in. I think that he can be forgiven for that lapse.

This season, I like the job of acting that he has been doing. Much of it has been through his main strength of emoting without dialogue. This doesn't mean that I like the way that the Paris character has been written. I feel that he has been written (and accordingly acted) as juvenile and incapable of deep thought. Paris seems to act purely on emotion this season. But that is not the fault of the actor but the writers.

Jules -- 4 Dec 1998, 5:54 AM

Sorry, Jason. I don't see it. Admittedly I'm very far from having an unbiased opinion here, as the Paris character is one of my favourites... but like Terry, I see more or less the opposite of what you suggest going on this season.

Now the Paris of season four did leave me distinctly underwhelmed. The character hasn't been particularly well or consistently written since early season two; after "Parturition" or thereabouts he turned into a caricature of what they established in the pilot episode, and with the exception of a handful of good moments - most of which were character parts in episodes that essentially belonged to someone else - he's been written very shallow and simplistically ever since. To be honest, I've always been impressed with how much McNeill has been able to do with such meager material as he's been handed. Don't forget that, prior to "Vis À Vis" (which wasn't exactly a world beater), the last episode that was "Paris" rather than ensemble was two years earlier... and that was "Threshold". Plenty of reason for an actor to get frustrated with his work, you'd think, and yet I don't really believe his performance went off particularly until mid season last year... and most of that was exacerbated by inconsistently written characterisation. Since he had plenty of reasons for being distracted at the time, I'd guess he just didn't have the energy to push the writers on his character's behalf... and maybe that his job wasn't his highest priority in life for a while.

But while I doubt you'd find too many RDM fans - even the most ardent of them - who wouldn't be willing to concede you that season, I see a much different actor and character in season five. The enthusiasm seems to be up to season one levels again, and he's making something out of nothing with body language and facial gestures to create a consistent characterisation where they've forgotten to actually write it that way. You say that he gives the "same performance" every episode. Well, perhaps it's beneath me to twist your words that way, but he is supposed to be playing the same character. So, shouldn't he?

As for Captain Proton and Tom Paris being virtually indistinguishable from each other... well, why shouldn't they be? Captain Proton is a holoprogram that Tom is playing for fun. McNeill may be an actor, but Paris is a pilot. No acting skills required. So he plays himself, slightly larger than life, because it's just Paris projecting himself back in time to his beloved cult B movies. Yes, I noticed it too. But unlike you I thought it was probably a conscious choice. (Harry hammed it up and overacted in the same scenes, but that was just as appropriate to his character.)

I can't comment on the scenes in "Nothing Human", since I haven't seen it yet. Although I did notice that Ginny of all people commented favourably on the Paris/Torres scenes, which seems particularly bizarre in view of your negative reaction. :-)

All I can say though is that unlike last season, where the Paris characterisation often annoyed me extremely, I haven't seen one false note that jarred against my own personal interpretation of the character so far this year. So I guess we're just going to have to agree to disagree. Still, that's one of the nice things about having an ensemble cast, particularly now that it's firing on all cylinders again. There's room for that, and something for everybody.

Diane -- 4 Dec 1998, 7:09 AM

Jason, I don't agree with you. If anything, McNeill seems extremely focused this year. Last year was a wash for him, his family crisis, the upheaval with firing Lien and bringing on Ryan. I think he not only couldn't focus, he lost interest in his part. That is probably why he got himself into that Actor's Workshop with William Hunt. I feel it paid off. His scene with B'Elanna in Extreme Risk was Excellent as were his scenes this week. He nailed his portrayal of an extremely caring lover/friend. The way he said "Hay" his emotional response, his body language all emoted "I LOVE YOU." After seeing this episode I could only think anyone who questioned Paris' love for B'Elanna would have their answer "Actions speak louder than words." And, the scene in the ready room, where he was arguing, another nailed performance. I expected not to like this episode, but due to the great performances by not only McNeill, but Mulgrew, Picardo, Dawson and Beltran (yes, I thought he also did a good job) the show pulled me in emotionally. No one put in a weak performance this week.

However, Next week will be the Paris episode. This is where he will "Sink or Swim."

Maureen -- 2 Dec 1998, 10:50 PM

Nothing to complain about. Actually, I mean it. Of course, it's not a perfect episode, but I enjoyed tonight's show.

Great beginning. Good Chakotay/Kim interaction on the bridge. Muddy Tom! Disobeying orders--definitely grounds for court-martial (or at least a flogging). Enjoyed the P/T in the mess-hall.

Jeez, Cardassians are amazingly unlikable! Even when one's trying to be helpful, he's so smug.

For the most part, I liked the sickbay scenes. Sure we got the patented, "Do something!" from Tom, but given a job to do, he was reasonably competent. (IMO, they've been writing him very shallow this season so far.) The P/T interchanges were pretty good. He kept it light, but reassuring. And when the Doc took a shot at him, he stood his ground. I like that so much better than last year, when Tom was just a straightman for the Doc's jibes. And if B'Elanna's precarious state didn't wring a declaration of undying love from Tom, well, that's consistent with a guy who hasn't even envisioned his own death. He's gonna keep busy and not think about this. There's got to be something he can do.

Okay, on to the moral dilemma. I'm glad this was an ensemble concern--I was afraid it was going to be the Doc's concern only. I really liked the conference room scene. Been too long since we've seen open conflict between Tom and Chakotay. Tom's "We're in the Delta Quadrant--who's going to know?" indicates that he's at a fairly low level of moral functioning. Okay, he was operating on emotion at that point, but we've seen that kind of argument from Tom before. And his "Thanks" to the Captain was so reminiscent of that comment to Tuvok in "Scientific Method" though clearly his meaning now very different. He would take Janeway's decision personally.

Yeah, I wonder if B'Elanna's gonna be ticked off at Tom as well, or has she figured him out yet?

At the end, I felt that the Doc's deletion of the Cardassian was a way to ease his own conscience (does a hologram have a conscience?). Getting rid of him didn't change what the Doc had done--or change the fact that a great deal of medical knowledge has been acquired through less than ethical means--but this way he wouldn't be confronted with it on a daily basis.

Eric -- 2 Dec 1998, 10:29 PM

Everything Human! (Missing Jewelry!!) Hey! Didn't someone say that this would be a light AOTW episode? Boy were they off! WAY off! This is what Trek is all about, hell this whole SEASON is what Voyager should have been for the last 5 years (well with Jenn Lien also!), color me an even bigger fan of Voyager then I already was.

Also, we seem to have gained a new fan, my brothers girlfriend was around and after IR and this one she says she isn't going to miss a episode!

I only had two problems for this episode, but let me get to what I liked first...

What was good :

1) I LOVE ethics stories. This is the kind of stuff that made ER the top rated drama and the meat of Nothing Human can stand up right beside ANY ER episode. At what point to we sacrifice our high and mighty morals to save a friend? Heavy stuff...

2) Once again, Janeway behaves herself and acts like a real Captain! A far cry from the whiny wench from Season 4, is this becoming a habit? If she keeps this up she may yet climb out of last place in my Captain's ranking before the show ends.

3) NIIIIIIIIIIIIIIICE Boom when the AOTW ship went up! Me likes light sourcing debris! Me like it LOTS!

4) HoloDoc's slide show! I was ROTFLMAO!

5)The Tom/B'Elanna/Neelix 10-forward scene. *sigh* Look Ma! There acting like a real crew on Voyager! Loookit!

The Bad :

1) Where the HECK was Tabor's Bajoran Earring? According to both Ro and Kira that is what MAKES the Bajoran! Unforgivable!!!

2) The AOTW. Ok GREAT story but the silly plastic UNMOVING AOTW almost killed the whole thing. I could not help but laugh when we first saw it. And then when it jumped on B'Elanna (AGAIN without moving!) tears were forming in my eyes! PTB why, of WHY didn't you have FI do a CGI alien for you?? These folks gave life to the Shadows and to 8472!!! Whhhyyyyyyy??

Jim C -- 3 Dec 1998, 1:22 AM

Since NOTHING's been breached yet... Well, this was my favorite episode of the year so far. In fact, it's the first episode since DRONE that has inspired me to throw my two cents into the hat.

I'm not going to go into the things I specifically liked or didn't like about the episode...everyone else will cover those. Instead I'm going to be the first to toss out the grenade.

I think practices such as those shown by Krell were reprehensible and should not be condoned in practice, but I don't understand the ethical dilemma behind not using the information he gained through his research. Isn't it, in fact, a duty to use the information? In my opinion it actually honors the memory of those who suffered. Something good results from their sacrifice. Not using the information for the greater good makes their losses lose meaning, IMO.

Don't misunderstand me, I don't believe the ends justify the means. Any person found guilty of atrocities against others should be prosecuted to the fullest extent. The example must be set to try and deter future crimes. On the other hand, if the ends have been achieved, punish the people responsible. Don't deny knowledge that people gave up their lives (or worse) to obtain if it can help humanity.

It was incredibly predictable for the Doc to delete the program in the end. It sealed everything up all neat and tidy. I really wanted TPTB to go the gray route and have Krell persuade Doc not to delete him entirely. Of course his deletion raised a second question. What right did the Doc, himself a sentient hologram, have to delete another sentient hologram (I say Krell was sentient because of the way he realized he was causing others distress (the Bajoran) and the way he argued for his life at the end)? Isn't that akin to murder? And if so, is the Doc any better than the Cardassian? Couldn't one say Doc got the information he needed and then disposed of the vessel just as the Krell did to the Bajorans?

Any way, I can't wait to see how long we debate this one. Terry, I think your off topic posts will be minimized this week.

ande -- 3 Dec 1998, 2:21 AM

Since NOTHING's been breached yet... Jim, your argument is persuasive; however, is this the actual ethical dilemma? In this instance, when B'Elanna is faced with a personal decision of whether or not info gained by Krell from the suffering of others should be used to help her, she made a decision for herself that she would rather face death than allow the doc to use the info to save her life. This is what she chose for herself. In such difficult ethical territory, the ethics of deleting the info for humanitarian reasons or not deleting the info for humanitarian reasons could drag on for a very long time and never come to a resolution. B'Elanna made the decision in her situation easy. She chose not to have the treatment. Janeway took away B'Elanna's autonomy over her own body and forced her to endure treatment that she chose not to have. Yes, Janeway might have been acting in the best interest of the crew...the good of the many...blah, blah, blah, but she should have upheld B'Elanna's decision and told the doc attempt treatment himself.

Just for a giggle aside not only did Janeway force treatment on B'Elanna, but she left 7 in charge of the engine room while B'Elanna was being used for life-support by the AOTW. Talk about kicking some one while they're down. Janeway is in B'Elanna's doghouse big time!

I was somewhat surprised to read that most of the posters liked the episode. I can't say the same. There were some things that I liked: RDM and RB did a nice job in the acting department. RD was ok, but it's a little hard to act when you have a cheap plastic thing hanging on your neck. Everyone else did their standard decent job.

Krell was a good oily Cardie. I found his finale argument to be right on. He and the doc seemed to be getting along rather well and I wonder if more than medical ethics where a consideration for the doc when he at first didn't want to delete the program. I thought this added a nice dimension. The Ready-Room roundtable discussion was nicely done, except for the end when Janeway once again made a unilateral decision for one of her crew who had already made an informed decision about her body and life.

Stuff I didn't like:

I think I could have made a better alien with some paper mache and puppet strings. I found this so distracting that I could not concentrate on Tom and B'Elanna's scenes very well. That is too bad because they had some of the best scenes.

IMHO Janeway had no right to decide for B'Elanna that she was going to receive the treatment. B'Elanna was in her right mind and made an educated decision to refuse treatment from Krell. Just because she refused Krell's treatment didn't mean that the Doc couldn't treat her. He could have very well treated her successfully without Krell's help.

I didn't like the flow of the episode. It seemed disjointed to me.

Nits:

I agree about Harry being able to whip up a new doc in 30 seconds. If he can do it now, why couldn't he do it before?
7 being in charge of Engineering. Once again Joe Carey has been relegated to the unseen and the unheard.

Janeway sending out a message she didn't understand. For all she knew it could have been a warning to stay away from the area due to an infestation of fake-looking, pseudo-parasitic alien life-forms.

Ok, that's enough of a rant for now. I think I'll join D'Alaire and head to bed.

Carol -- 3 Dec 1998, 3:20 AM

The objections raised weren't mostly about Krell's help... as much as it was his methods of helping and how he acquired his information. B'Elanna and the ones who were against it felt that if the Doctor treated her using the ideas Krell came up with, they would be benefiting from his experiments on Bajorans during the war. Deleting all his findings as well as his
program and research from the database was a symbol of this -- the Doc didn't feel it was right to use knowledge from someone who had obtained it from the suffering of others.

Just taking him offline wasn't the main problem. The Doc said that if he had a few weeks he maybe could come up with another procedure to save B'Elanna, but B'Elanna didn't have that much time and Krell's idea was the only one that had any possibility of working. So there were only two choices at that point -- use Krell's idea and save B'Elanna or not use a procedure derived from someone who had committed war atrocities and loose B'Elanna. Both arguments presented by Tom and Chakotay on it, as Janeway said, were both right.

I'm not going to touch much on the moral issues raised by this episode since Terry and Jason have pretty much said everything I would have on it and I agree with them both. I thoroughly enjoyed this episode and was even rather surprised that Jeri Taylor wrote it. I enjoyed it a lot more than I thought I would (especially considering the rotten preview).

Cheers

The holodoc slide show had me ROTF as did Janeway's shell-shocked look as she left the holodeck.

Even though this was mainly a Doc centered episode, most of the rest of the cast were all well used for the most past (except two little points I'll bake below). The Janeway I know and love was here (until the scene with B'Elanna, but like I said, later below) and for the first time in a long time I believed in Tom and B'Elanna's relationship. Tom hovering over her in sickbay and fighting for her life in the briefing room scene was wonderful and touching. Best P/T I've seen in a long time.

And about that briefing room scene: it was the best scene in the episode and, IMO, one of the best scenes Voyager's ever done period. Everyone took the side I expected them to take. Janeway's decision to save B'Elanna was just what I expected her to do and I loved how she said to essentially put all the ramifications of her decision on her head. Then, as Tom walked by her, I loved how he said "Thanks." And the Tom/Chakotay disagreement seemed like some slight foreshadowing IMO. They may respect each other, but they are far from having settled all their hostilities. Kudos to Robbie McNeill, Robert Beltran and Kate Mulgrew. The three of them stood out the most for me in this scene.

I know I'm not the only one who saw the parallel between the Cardassian doctor's experiments on Bajorans and the Nazi's experiments on the Jews in Concentration Camps during WWII And Seven's parallels using the Borg was right on. I loved the fact that all sides of the debate were treated with the respect they deserved (which was something I found really lacking between a lot of the moral debates between Janeway and Seven last year).

Jeers

The AOTW was really cheesy. And I had a problem feeling sympathy for a creature that threatens someone else's life just to save their own. But I did like the fact that their language wasn't easily understood.

Why was Seven put in charge of Engineering? Did Joe Carey bite the dust and nobody told us? :-D I think even Vorik comes before Seven in the Engineering chain of command (I'm sure Alexander Enburg could've used the work :-).

The J/C scenes of them working together just seemed to be designed to get Chakotay some screen time (and J/C some screen time). I love J/C, but I don't need pointless J/C. Janeway working on the alien code problem didn't seem off as she was a science officer (and scientist), but why Chakotay? He was better used in the scenes with the Bajoran crew member.

The Janeway/B'Elanna scene -- when Janeway said that she would talk to her I was hoping we'd see it, but Kate was way too cold with B'Elanna IMO. She didn't have to agree with B'Elanna, but this was a far cry from the scene between them in Extreme Risk. Kate showed less compassion towards B'Elanna than I thought she would -- and the last comment she made before she left rubbed me the wrong way: She didn't have to get touchy-feely or emotional, but she was too cold IMO.

Leonie -- 3 Dec 1998, 7:48 AM

HULL BREACH in progress!
We agree Jim.

Quite frankly I thought it a bit hypocritical.

Does any one else but me ask the question if this would have been an issue it the hologram was anyone else say a Klingon Mass murderer? Let's pretend the scenario was different. Say it was a Klingon mass murderer who slaughtered a whole set Bolians and it was Krell who recognized him. Do you think it would have made a difference in B'Elanna's attitude in Chak's. I think it would have. I think that Krell's objections would have been noted and everything would have gone on as planned. Quite frankly I agreed with Tom. No one was able to put it out of their heads that it was the enemy (the Cardassians) that was helping them and that was the reason why they didn't want the treatment to occur.

The other thing I was thinking about was the fact that most of the times, The doctor does not know where all of the treatments he has been using to save lives day after day has come from. For all he knows the cure for the Erilian Plague (I just made it up, deadly if not treated) came from the slaughter of hundreds Romulans in a war camp. No one ever stops to ask. So if they discover that later on, does that mean that they will stop giving treatment to others on ethical grounds and watch helpless other innocents die?

The Bajoran in this (why am I so bad with the extras names this year? I guess it's because I never really had to learn them since they never contributed to the story, never spoke and always died in the next episode) was absolutely correct in his reactions and demands. He is the closest to this and I expect for him not to see beyond it. But I had definitely expected Chak to see beyond it. One of his closest friends is dying and something can be done to help her and you're waxing eloquent speeches about ethics and morals which will not change anything nor bring the dead back to life?

Stay the Hell away from me!
I don't want you as a friend.

Sue_B -- 3 Dec 1998, 7:39 AM

Season of Discontent Continues.

Just a few thoughts:

Doesn't it seem like this is Voyager's "Season of Discontent"? Were not the "happy family" we settled into in Season 3. In fact, everyone seems to be cracking a little under the strain. It seemed to show most on Janeway. Other shows with this mood: Night - Janeway's depression, Extreme Risk - B'Elanna's depression, Infinite Regress - Seven's induced depression. It's not just that they are depressed, however, it just seems like everyone is really getting on everyone else's nerves. The Doc's Holopresentation. It was a scream but it also seems to emphasize that they are in desperate need of shore leave. The briefing room scene and the Janeway/B'Elanna scene also had an "edge" we are starting to see as a common thread. I agree with Carol on foreshadowing (see Conspiracy Theory section below - but it contains spoilers).

The Episode: Powerful moments but generally wandered a bit. It seems they really stretched the episode. The plastic alien thingy was left to chew on B'Elanna for quite some time while they diddled with Holoprograms and morals. (Ooops, am I showing my opinion here?). It's not that it isn't an important debate, I just felt the tempo of the show was off.

Good Bits: The human interaction was really meaty. I agree with most of the people who wrote comments on this. I also like the wave effect.

Nit-Heaven: This one was chock-full. The focus was the moral dilemma and continuing the "Season of Discontent". Everything else was filler and received very little effort in the continuity department. The Janeway bashers will have a field-day on her "outreach" effort. I've come to accept that these lapses are plot devices and nothing more.

Bottom line. Choppy pacing but good underlying themes.

Conspiracy Theory (see Below)

.
SPOILERS COMING
.
.
Okay, if you're still reading....

I'm convinced the chest-thumping briefing room argument was indeed a foreshadowing for next week. Tom's blatant moral-dancing is going to get him busted and I believe it's next week.

My Theory (you may laugh at me next week): Tom violates the prime directive in a big way with the underwater folks. His actions (whatever he does) is very anti-Starfleet and Capt Kate brings the hammer down to teach him a lesson. I'm betting it's a bust to ensign and 30 days in the brig.

Clues: 1) The spoiler Braga provided in his interview (which tells us of the demotion and "and extended time in the brig"). 2) The previews pretty much have Tom in command of a first contact with an underwater alien society. 3)Some mention in TV guide about their lifestyle eroding their environment and Paris involved. 4) The foreshadowing in the briefing room: Tom hammered Starfleet, the Maquis, and morals when they are so far from home. He's asking for it. 5)Last week's episode -- which I believe was filmed after both NH and 30-days -- Tom wasn't in the group briefing session and I SWEAR he's only wearing one pip.

Okay, that's my conspiracy theory. If you comment, please be sure an include spoiler space.

Sue_B (who has swallowed the Braga bait - hook, line, and sinker)

Terry -- 3 Dec 1998, 7:53 AM

You make an excellent point, Jim. Knowledge is knowledge, no matter how it came to be known. And our culture reveres knowledge and abhors its loss. I know that I winced when the Doctor deleted the medical data forever.

OTOH, I see the point about rewarding those who obtain that knowledge through highly unethical means. It should not be encouraged. But really, no that I know has or ever will be truly acclaimed for such deeds in any culture if the truth is known. No one would have encouraged to respect or emulate Dr. Mengele even if his experimental data had been widely used.

Frankly, I abhor the idea of using that data in the abstract but could not countenance its nonuse in practice. I dislike moral decisions which serve only principle and hurt individuals in the real world.

Leonie -- 3 Dec 1998, 8:14 AM

Digging Deeper into Nothing Human. There is something that I picked up and I thought was interesting.

When the episode started, Doc was boring people with his holo-slide shows. When Krell was first activated, he was envious of the awards and the prestige and recognition that his work had brought him. I think that he had wanted to keep the program around not for purely medical purposes but for purely social ones.

Doc is lonely.

He is lonely professionally and in a sense spiritually. He is only "One", there is no other like him. At least Seven has the advantage that she is partially human, but the Doc is completely different. And there are no other Doctors on board that he can relate too. There certainly isn't another sentient hologram. The Krell program had the potential to be both and it would have taken an edge off the doctor's loneliness.

I was thinking at the end of the show, after the wonderful ethical debate that the Doc could have simply given some brief acknowledgement to that and quite frankly said that he was doing this for the rest of the crew. In doing so, he was damning himself back to his lonely existence. And to tell the truth in the end, that's what I felt sorry for him the most.

Out of evil Good can come

Jim said:

I think practices such as those shown by Krell were reprehensible and should not be condoned in practice, but I don't understand the ethical dilemma behind not using the information he gained through his research. Isn't it, in fact, a duty to use the information? In my opinion it actually honors the memory of those who suffered. Something good results from their sacrifice. Not using the information for the greater good makes their losses lose meaning, IMO.

Don't misunderstand me, I don't believe the ends justify the means. Any person found guilty of atrocities against others should be prosecuted to the fullest extent. The example must be set to try and deter future crimes. On the other hand, if the ends have been achieved, punish the people responsible. Don't deny knowledge that people gave up their lives (or worse) to obtain if it can help humanity.

I just had to copy this to give my stamp of approval on it. Bravo Jim!!! well said!!! I spent most of the commercials in this episode arguing this point to my furniture. Why couldn't anyone see that? I had expected this to be Chak's argument to the Bajoran. It wasn't even raised as an issue or a point to be discussed. That I thought was a real travesty and convinced me even more to the hypocrisy of the ethical and moral debate that occurred.

Vickie T. -- 3 Dec 1998, 8:10 AM

Thank you, Jim! I am, as usual here lately, completely swamped at work. Yeah, I know you all are getting tired of hearing me whine about this. I decided to give myself 30 minutes to take a quick peak at the Nothing Human discussion and expressly forbid myself from posting because what I want to say would have taken way too much time.

However, you have very nicely taken care of the number one item on my list. I agree 100% with your comments.

PegN -- 3 Dec 1998, 9:18 AM

Nerts, I only got to see the last 1/2 hour but here goes....

1. Dagnabit I missed the slide show. Terry, your mission is to try to post the muddy Tom pic. (I'll also try to watch it again Saturday.)

2. Scene in the conference room. Tom/Chakotay, oh man! But aside from that, I suppose Chakotay, as a friend and a former Maquis would argue on B'Ela's behalf not to accept medical treatment. After all, the Cardassians destroyed Chuck's home too (according to Pathways) so he'd probably make the same decision if he were in her place. He had to weigh that against his own personal feelings for friend and fellow freedom fighter.

3. Tom argued for his lover's life. Understandable. However comma this probably put a wedge between him and B'Elanna. She's angry at the doctor, angry at Janeway and angry that Tom argued for her life. He's her lover and this proved to her, once again, that he doesn't understand her and how important this decision was to her and her code of ethics. Can you imagine her frustration, even though she knows he cares for her, he just doesn't get her.

4. Janeway's decision was based on the good of the many. B'Elanna is an important member of her crew and Janeway cares about the woman herself. And though she didn't make her decision lightly, she had to consider the benefits of 128-150 (it changes from week to week) other people.

5. Doc had a critical situation on his hands. Save his patient. That's what he does. Think about the consequences later. I don't think his decision to delete Krell was hypocritical. Maybe after B'Elanna recovered, she explained to him (very heatedly I'm sure) why her decision was so important not only to her but to other Maquis members of the crew and the fact that she will now go through a form of "survivor guilt". He had to digest that and weigh it against the benefit of keeping the program.

Tough decisions all around.

But I still need to catch the first 1/2 hour.

Oh and BTW, anyone else notice how many 20th century references the Doc uses?

"Bonnie & Clyde" (Timeless)
"Typhoid Mary" and "Multiple Personality Disorder" (Infinite Regression)

Medical terms change quite a bit. Will MPD still be used in the 24th century?

Ginny -- 3 Dec 1998, 10:07 AM

I didn't think it was hypocritical of the Holodoc to delete Krell. I thought it was just plan stupid. What's he going to do next? Review all the medical info in his database and delete anything that was acquired through less than ethical or compassionate research? Lots o' luck keeping much of a database intact. The history of medicine, like the history of government, engineering science, and any other field of study is chock full of zealots who did nasty things in pursuit of knowledge and/or power. But that knowledge, once added to the sum total of human understanding, is no more evil or tainted than any other tool.

We don't give up cutting tools, because someone becomes an axe murderer. We don't stop making textiles, because someone puts children to work in a sweatshop.

"If thy hand offends thee, cut it off." Okay, fine. But who's going to tie your shoes for you next time? - Elf Ginny.

Mike -- 3 Dec 1998, 9:39 AM

Holo-Mengele meets the holo-doc... I'm writing this before reading the comments already made, so please forgive me for repeating anything already said.

'Nothing Human' did not sit well with me. I enjoyed the first fifteen or twenty minutes based solely on the Docs interaction with the Cardassian and the interaction between Tom and B'Elanna. As soon as the Cardassian (can't remember his name) turned out to be a Dr. Mengele type, the story went down hill. I would have much preferred it had been the story of a Cardassian hologram that was not the evil tyrant B'Elanna and that other crew member thought his real life counterpart was. I also had a problem with the Doc removing all the medical data the Cardassian had accumulated. Even if the data was gained by ill means, at least the lives of those who died would not have been in vain. Their deaths would at least save other lives, without the data their deaths would not help others. If others (e.g. Starfleet) made the same decision the doc had made to destroy the data on moral grounds, than how many people would die because that plague cure mentioned would not be used. Make no mistake, I'm not saying what the Cardassian did was acceptable, it certainly was not. I'm just saying that since the knowledge was there it should be used to benefit the living, it shouldn't be destroyed as a moral statement in support of those who died. I'd also like to note that Torres and the rest of the crew seem to have no problem using Borg technology to benefit Voyager, there seem to be some hypocrisy there. Wasn't the Borg's knowledge gained by the sacrifice, deaths and assimilation of countless beings? Why is it ok to use the Borg's knowledge, but not the Cardassian's?

I have often said that when Janeway is wrong, I'll admit it. She was wrong BIG TIME in this episode. She should not have beamed the alien aboard before more was known about it. Tuvok warned her, but as usual she ignored good advice. If the alien was left on it's ship, B'Elanna would not have been in the predicament she was in. I could understand, Janeway beaming the alien aboard if his ship was about to explode, but she did it way before that happened. To Kate's credit she did make the right decision using the medical knowledge to save B'Elanna as top priority before making moral decisions on whether it was right to use it. I also thought it was really silly near the end when we heard some gibberish from the aliens and Janeway responded 'You're Welcome'. Come on, Kate, they attacked the ship, the alien in sickbay cared nothing about your crew and only wanted to save itself, and you act like they deserve a 'You're welcome'!!!

Strangely enough, the movie 'Alien' was on HBO last night. Quite a coincidence, since the alien in 'Nothing Human' reminded me very much of the famous scenes in 'Alien' were the creature attached itself to John Hurt's character. I guess Kate would also have viewed that alien as a sentient being just trying to survive, Geesh!

There was some fine acting by the guest star (the Cardassian that is, not the thing attached to B'Elanna's neck ;^). One other thing that bothered me, there was a little to much care free conversation between Kim and the Doc while B'Elanna was being sucked dry in sickbay. Also, I was hoping that while she lie there, possibly dying, Tom might have told her he loved her. Instead he just joked with her to cheer her up. At least he didn't bring up pizza again.

I never got to say it, but I really enjoyed the previous two episodes. This one was a let down.

Now to read all your comments. I hope I'm not in the minority again :^).

Leonie -- 3 Dec 1998, 10:39 AM

Excellent point about the Borg Mike...
That was an analogy I hadn't considered.

If you've read, you found that one or two people agreed with you in your views about whether or not to use the information gotten, although people more or less enjoyed the episode.

Maybe I need another perspective. I have never seen Mengele, was that TNG or TOS?

Ginny -- 3 Dec 1998, 10:50 AM

Actually, Leonie... Josef Mengele was a monster in human form who performed horrific medical experiments on the prisoners at Auschwitz. Krell was obviously written to evoke a comparison to him and the other Nazi physicians who committed atrocities in the concentration camps.

Elf Ginny *<:-(

When in the course of HUMAN events...

Finally...an episode that actually got better in the second half. I liked this one very much, for reasons I will state below. But first, the irritating bits.

GRIPES

--The pseudo-ALIEN alien. It looked like something my brother Joe and I used to cook up with Gobbledy Gook.

--Did anyone else think B'Elanna was being both incredibly selfish and incredibly inconsistent? She won't accept treatment because of a moral objection to how the treatment was formulated (yeah, yeah, yeah--and where would 24th century engineering be without Werner von Braun?), preferring instead to die, thus depriving the Voyager crew of her (occasionally life-saving) engineering expertise and Kathryn of a much-needed senior officer...and breaking Tom's heart, in the bargain. How very...noble? She certainly didn't have any qualms about using Borg technology, despite the fact that the atrocities that the Borg committed to obtain that technical knowledge (assimilation and destruction of entire cultures) make Krell Moset's actions pale in comparison. Why her sudden moral queasiness? Personally, I think it has just the faintest taint of racism about it.

As you may surmise, I thought Kathryn's decision was absolutely correct. Lost in the Delta Quadrant, cadging what technological help they can get, where they can get it, doing what needs to be done to maximize limited resources and personnel--that's simply the way it is. We could debate Krell's assertion that ethics are arbitrary (and they often are IMHO), but Tom was essentially right when he asked, "Who's going to know?" That's really the whole point. Krell's just a hologram, a tool, if you will. He (or anyone else, for that matter) isn't going to hear about the Holodoc's use of his work to cure B'Elanna and decide, "Well, hell, I think I'll go out an experiment on a few thousand more people and find a cure for the common cold next." Jim put it more eloquently in terms of making the sacrifice of Krell's victims mean something, but I think the decision is really a matter of pragmatically examining the situation and making the choice that benefits the most people in the here and now.

Like I said before, and I'll say it again. No one had any qualms about using Borg technology.

--Since when did self-awareness become the rule, rather than the exception, with holograms?

GRATIFYING BITS

Oh, bunches!

--We came close, folks. To a genuine spittle-flying, chest-butting, testosterone-soaked free-for-all between Tom and Chakotay. I rewound the scene and watched it three times. That actor's workshop that RDM attended this summer is really starting to pay off. And RB didn't suck. The whole briefing room scene was nearly brilliant--well-written, well-acted, and absolutely pertinent to the plot. (Sometimes those scenes seem almost superfluous--just a chance to give everyone a line of dialogue.) It would have been completely brilliant, if Tuvok had just managed to work in a one reference to "the good of the many".

--Guest AOTW was very good. I actually liked him, until he started vivisecting the Creepy Crawler. When the Holodoc objects, and Krell reasonably explains that it's just a hologram, I thought, "Well, yes, that's true", but instinctively, I still felt uncomfortable with the idea. His whole performance was like that. So reasonable, so dedicated to medicine, that you want to admire him, but so relentless and amoral in his pursuit of knowledge, that he's scary.

--As someone (Jason?) said, I just love an episode that's about something. And if it's well-written, too, gosh--I'm in heaven. As I said before, the beginning was slow (although the Doc's slide show was a hoot), but when the episode started to rock, it really started to rock.

--Tom finally acts in a manner that makes me think he and B'Elanna are something other than exercise partners.

Slim pickings for 47's this week.
--Biomedical scan read 128--28=4x7
--The pictograph of the AOTW's language looked like it had four large round shapes in the middle, and seven smaller round shapes on either side

And one more for the contest:
Seven: "Her feelings about me are irrelevant."

Eric -- 3 Dec 1998, 11:27 AM

Go to sleep Naomi, or the plastic bug will eat you!

I'm glad someone agrees with me about that damn bug! It's hard to take it seriously as a threat when you can see clearly that B'Elanna was moving it's legs around our when it took that laughable leap of the table! I swear I could see the wires yank it off the table.

Your right, it was VERY distracting looking at that fake buggy, but I was able to get past it and enjoy the story. Maybe you could watch it again and not look at the bug?

I still can't figure out why TPTB didn't have FI create a CGI version that could move and be menacing! Look what those guys did with 8472!

Mike -- 3 Dec 1998, 10:59 AM

Ginny, about the Borg technology...

Ginny mentioned:
"Like I said before, and I'll say it again. No one had any qualms about using Borg technology."

I felt the same way, Ginny, I even mentioned the very same argument in my comments above.

While I'm at it. I do agree with those that say B'Elanna had the right to decide her own fate (selfish or not). If B'Elanna was thinking clearly (for sure), than Janeway had no right to override her decision. What bothers me is the following:

1) Like you mentioned, it seemed B'Elanna was against the Cardassians doctor's help as soon as she recognized him as a Cardassian. I don't think she recognized him as a particular Cardassian who was notorious for sacrificing patients to gain knowledge. She just seemed to hate all Cardassians in general. For all she knew he could have been, what's his name, the tailor on DS9 and she would have hated him anyway. Still that is her decision to make.

2) More importantly, while the alien was attached to her and affecting her nervous system, nobody could be certain B'Elanna was thinking clearly enough to make decisions on her life, she could have been delusional. Tom and Janeway were the closest thing she had to family, so they had to make the life or death decision for her. That seems proper to me. Tom even stated at the meeting that he wasn't sure B'Elanna was thinking clearly. He should know. Of course it turned out, B'Elanna was not delusional, but still, the point is Janeway and Tom could not be sure at the time the decision had to be made.

3) What really bothered me most was the finality of the Doc's decision. Even if someone like B'Elanna was against using the knowledge for her own welfare, how could they delete the information for everyone else's use. Who's to say that some other crewmember, who didn't mind using it, may need that knowledge some where down the road on Voyager's way home? The Doc made the final decision for everyone.

Mike (I hope this made sense, I rushed writing it before I head for a meeting.)

Terry -- 3 Dec 1998, 11:57 PM

There's a fatal flaw in your analogy to Borg technology, Ginny. I was thinking about it and finally realized what the difference is between using Krell Mocet's medical data and Seven's assimilated Borg data.

Krell murdered and tortured innocents to create the medical knowledge from experimentation. The Borg murdered innocents and stole their knowledge. In the first case, the knowledge comes into existence only through the deaths. In the second, the knowledge already exists and is simply transferred. That assimilated knowledge may have been created by any and all means.

Using Krell's knowledge might indeed validate his methods of gathering that knowledge. This knowledge should never have been collected. But you could argue (as Janeway did to Arturis in Hope and Fear) that storing and using the assimilated races' knowledge is the only way in which those races can leave any sort of legacy to the galaxy. They and their accomplishments will be remembered (as in TNG's Inner Light).

Ginny -- 4 Dec 1998, 7:30 AM

Not so fast, Terr-meister. Not all the Borg technology came from a straight assimilation. My impression ever since the initial introduction of the Borg was that they used the technological knowledge that they acquired from assimilation to create new or more advanced technologies. After all, the Borg probably didn't start out travelling around the galaxy in cool, state-of-the-art geometrically-shaped ships and being able to kick the snot out of every race they encountered. They undoubtedly developed the advanced weapons and warp capability that characterized them when they first encountered the Enterprise over time, using the knowledge that they violently appropriated from other races.

Under those circumstances, I don't see a significant ethical difference between using Borg technology and using Krell's medical knowledge.

Besides, knowledge is knowledge; parts is parts.

Elf Ginny *<:-)

Terry -- 4 Dec 1998, 7:48 AM

That is contrary to what we heard in Scorpion, T'Gin. The Borg were described as being able to use (and perhaps synthesize) tech from assimilated races but unable to improve or adjust that tech beyond what was already known. "The Borg assimilate; we investigate."

I believe that all of their important technologies were swallowed whole from other races. Each Borg technology we've seen that either was specifically described as coming from an assimilated race or had equivalent in another races' hands. For instance, the Voth and Arturis' species have/had transwarp or slipstream drives.

Ginny -- 4 Dec 1998, 8:50 AM

Maybe, Terry. But the Borg couldn't have implemented......assimilated technology without some modification and application. Voyager (I forget the episode title) has also shown us that some technologies are simply incompatible--that they either cannot work together at all, or they require extensive modification. Considering the diverse species that the Borg have assimilated, there is no way that the Borg could "swallow technologies whole" and expect them to work.

Consider Species 8472. Their technology wasn't mechanical; it was organic. Yet the Borg were relentless in their quest to assimilate them, even though such technology would have to be extensively modified or adapted for effective Borg use.

All I'm really saying is that getting tech from the Borg is not like buying or trading for tech from the species that developed it. The Borg put their imprimatur on the technology when they assimilate and adapt it. Anyone who takes and uses that technology is therefore just as guilty of "validating" Borg methods of technology acquisition, as someone using Krell's medical knowledge validates his methods.

Whew! I've had too much cheese dip this morning. It's making me feisty.

Elf Ginny *<:-)

Mike -- 4 Dec 1998, 9:59 AM

Terry, here's another view on Borg gained knowledge... I have to agree with Ginny on this one, Terry. I don't see your argument as pointing out a "fatal flaw" it sounds more like splitting hairs ;^).

Terry said:
"Krell murdered and tortured innocents to create the medical knowledge from experimentation. The Borg murdered innocents and stole their knowledge. In the first case, the knowledge comes into existence only through the deaths. In the second, the knowledge already exists and is simply transferred. That assimilated knowledge may have been created by any and all means."

Looking at it from another stand point not yet mentioned. Isn't it safe to say that at some time the Borg assimilated knowledge from a race who used sacrificial methods like the Cardassian Krell did to gain the knowledge in the first place? The Borg might even have gained Krell's medical knowledge themselves when they assimilated a Cardassian ship. In that case would it be OK to use that knowledge because it was gained from the Borg and not directly from the Cardassians? Who knows by what means the races assimilated by the Borg gained the knowledge you say they already had anyway. Does the fact the knowledge came from the Borg second hand make using that knowledge any more valid or moral? I don't believe it does. If it did, it would be OK for Voyager to use the second hand knowledge gained (assimilated) from the Cardassians. Isn't that justified in the same way you're justifying the use of Borg knowledge no matter how the races assimilated gained it. It's like Voyager is assimilating Krell's medical knowledge (knowledge already in existence), Voyager didn't gain it directly by killing people, they gained it by using knowledge the Cardassians already had.

This is a fascinating discussion! I'm going to be away for a day or two, so I won't be able to respond for a while. I'd love to read more thoughts on this topic, in my opinion this is a good example of a Trek discussion board at it's very best. This weeks episode certainly gave us food for thought and debate.

Fliteman -- 4 Dec 1998, 12:56 PM

If I read Terry correctly... His point was that Voyager using Krell's knowledge VALIDATES it... Ginny had a good point earlier - a knife used wrong will kill, but a surgeon using it as a scalpel can save a person... (I think her analogy was an Ax.)

Knowledge - ALL knowledge, gotten from honest research or torture - is a tool. You'd HOPE it's used for good, but it may not be. The bad in this was the original Krell. He's the one that tortured & killed his victims; but if that knowledge he learned is used for GOOD, is that VALIDATING his actions...? Think of it this way... the Doc NEEDED that knowledge to save Torres. If it wasn't available, well, he would have learned from her autopsy how to save the NEXT person (if there was one) from the same fate, maybe.

Mike's point above is a good one: Would you let that first victim die in vain by NOT using what was learned? Why should there be MORE casualties when the tools available to save them exist?

Just my 2 cents... Torres is needed on Voyager, and if she'd rather die than be treated by the Holo-Cardassian, well TOUGH DARTS. Janeway was right to deny her wishes, because, her presence on Voyager gives them a better shot at getting home. This is a case of "The needs of the many..." Torres may be P.O.'d, and with good cause.... but she's gotta get over it, IMHO. Janeway made a good decision.

Terry -- 4 Dec 1998, 7:16 PM

Drawing a clearer distinction between Borg tech & Krell research. So that it can be seen that is more like splitting redwoods than hairs. :)

Let me make a analogy. Let's say that I have a healthy heart which is a suitable candidate for organ transplantation. I sign the appropriate forms to allow my heart to be so used should I ever die in an accident.

Two Cases:

1. Someone, let's call him Dr. Joe Mocet, comes along, murders me, cuts my heart out, and replaces the Pope's ailing heart with my own. He is hailed as a great hero of medicine until the truth comes out. Should the Pope keep my heart or not?

I would agree that the Pope should be allowed the choice to keep my heart since he didn't know or approve of my murder. It would be senseless to let him die. Whether it would be ethical for him to decide to keep it is up to him and his conscience.

However, it would gall me (in the afterlife) to know that Dr. Mocet's plan succeeded. Dr. Joe may even be willing to go to jail for my murder if it will save the Pope. He argues that the Pope's life is more important than mine. A decision by the Pope to keep the heart would appear to accept his argument.

2. Someone, let's call him Joe Borg, comes along, murders me, and cuts my heart out. Just 'cause he thinks two hearts are more efficient than one. He is arrested and my heart is taken back.

Now, another person, let's call him Joe Voyager, needs a heart transplant and mine is the only good match. Why shouldn't they use my heart? I agreed to be a donor to needy heart patients. I wouldn't have wanted my murderer to have it but I would approve of using it to save someone else's life. Otherwise, it just goes to waste.

BTW, Mike, you have a point about Borg tech possibly coming from tainted sources like the Cardassians. But if Voyager can't determine the source, the point is moot.

Leonie -- 4 Dec 1998, 1:54 PM

Counterpoint Terry... In the Omega Directive, the Borg learnt about the molecule from several different species via assimilation and then proceeded to try to synthesize the molecules for themselves in an experiment in which thousands of Borg drones were killed.

In that instance not only was knowledge obtained by assimilation resulting in the loss not of human sentient life, but of sentient freedom, (the drones are still alive), but it was further built upon by the collective.

Terry -- 4 Dec 1998, 6:45 PM

Krell's research is fruit from a poisoned tree. Ginny, you have convinced me that common sense dictates that the Borg must add some value to the assimilated technology. At the very least, they perform basic system integration tasks.

However, the case for more substantial original Borg research is much weaker. Leonie cited the case of the Omega particle research mentioned in The Omega Directive. But given the Borg's spectacular failure at a task that Seven and the Voyager crew were able to perform in short order, their competence at such research is highly questionable.

In any case, it is partially irrelevant. I see no problem in using either tech from assimilated races or original Borg tech. Only in using tech that exists only because of the Borg's violent behavior. This would be technological advances made possible only by assimilated knowledge. What portion of Borg tech fits into this category is questionable.

There were basically two objections to Krell's research data in Nothing Human. Tabor's objection was simply an emotional argument that the data was soaked in the blood of innocents and must be avoided at all costs. Tuvok's objection was a reasoned argument that use of the data encourages others to duplicate Krell's unethical methods.

I see Krell's research data as the medical equivalent of the legal concept of fruit from a poisoned tree. According to my exhaustive legal knowledge (gleaned from years of watching Perry Mason), this fruit is any evidence obtained directly or indirectly as a result of an illegal or improper act. Such evidence is rejected. Not because it can't aid justice in the particular case but because allowing such evidence rewards unethical behaviour by the police. And encourages its reoccurrence.

Likewise, the best objection to using Krell's data is that it might encourage future atrocities. No similar objection applies to the Borg technology. Voyager's use/nonuse of Seven's Borg knowledge has no chance of deterring the Collective from violent assimilations. Refusing to use Borg tech thus serves no practical purpose, only pure principle.

I would compare use of the Borg tech as more analogous to the cops confiscating cash and cars from a chop shop run by car thieves. These thieves stole, disassembled, and reassembled the cars, perhaps with their own custom enhancements. But if the cars cannot be returned to their original owners, they are sold at public auction. And the proceeds kept by the government.

Ginny -- 4 Dec 1998, 7:32 PM

Ah, but what about inevitable discovery? In some jurisdictions (namely, New York, according to LAW AND ORDER--my source for criminal procedure), if it can be shown that the illegal evidence would have inevitably been discovered through legal means, then it is admitted as an exception to the fruit of the poisonous tree doctrine.

So, if the technology/knowledge would have eventually been discovered absent Krell's egregious violation of Bajoran rights, and I have no doubt that it would, in time, it could lawfully be used by the Holodoc under the inevitable discovery exception.

Terry -- 4 Dec 1998, 7:45 PM

I must have missed that Perry Mason ep, Ginny. Since Krell Mocet was considered to be the foremost expert on xenobilogy, his research must still be ahead of any others. So obviously, no one else may yet gained his knowledge. Just because such knowledge might one day be gained doesn't make it inevitable, does it?

And Ginny, what if illegally obtained evidence would have eventually come to light but only long after it could have been used? Like after the accused's death? What then?

BTW, I just heard a cruel lawyer joke on Frasier. He was talking about some snake mating dance. Roz exclaimed, "Why celebrate a ceremony which results in the birth of more snakes? That's like toasting a law school graduation."

Leonie -- 3 Dec 1998, 11:05 AM

It wasn't just me but I was actually too chicken to say it... Racism was the first thing that crossed my mind also, that's why I brought up the idea of whether or not a big deal would have been made if the doctor was another race besides Cardassian.

I held my hand at the keyboard because I thought that if it were an Cardassian, who had not committed those crimes and B'Elanna and Co just didn't want to be treated by him, then that would constitute as racism. They would be unfairly condemning an innocent man because of the actions of members of his race.

Now after reading the posts, I'm thinking that he was innocent after all because, the program is not aware or is not the person who committed those acts. It is just a compendium of subroutines and programs. It is innocent.

Then I remember how the personality subroutine made the Krell program oblivious to an alternative method of treatment and was perfectly willing and happy in sacrificing the life of the alien. Because of that subroutine it is not as innocent as it should be as a walking database.

So I thought, maybe they could keep the research and use another interface with a different personality. And that was really the crux of the ethical debate, not particularly the program, the subroutines and personality of the hologram, but the knowledge that the program contained. Then I agree with you whole heartedly. While I respect the fact that evil spawned it, to me it is not right to withhold the use of the knowledge and in doing so cause many hundreds more to die.

ande -- 3 Dec 1998, 1:26 PM

When in the course of HUMAN events... Am I the only one that practically screamed at Harry to change the holo-image of Krell when he and the Doc were 'creating' Krell? The ship is full of people who are not fond of Cardies. Harry pointed this out, but then failed to make a suggestion to change the holo-image. The info/subroutines would have remained the same and I am in no way suggesting that this is an answer to the ethical dilemma, but the whole problem would have been avoided if Harry would have just changed the image of Krell to be Bolian or human, etc.

By the way, I re-watched the episode today, since I was off from work and I was more impressed the second time around. I still don't feel that Janeway had the right to countermand B'Elanna's decision, but if it were my friend, I would probably take the same road that Tom did.

Terry -- 3 Dec 1998, 7:13 PM

I'm not sure that racism is a fair term to use. The Maquis hate the Cardassians because of the atrocities they have seen them commit. B'Elanna may not have recognized Krell but it's a good bet that the only Cardassian doctors that she had heard about were the butchers of the Bajoran occupation. In any case, she wasn't absolutely opposed to his treatment until his identity was fully known.

Should a Jew or Gypsy be accused of racism against Germans if he didn't want to be treated by a German doctor in 1946? Their fear and hatred is not a result of ignorant prejudice but painful experience. The Maquis hate the Cardassians because they are their enemies.

In any case, if racism is indeed present, it is a realistic portrayal of how such embittered enemies would feel. One reason that I love Nothing Human is that it is even more of a character episode than an issue show.

Jeri Taylor introduced an complex ethical issue and showed the elements of both sides. She didn't tell the viewer what the right answer was, as is usual in most issue shows. Instead, she showed how each character would handle the issue. The characters were true to their established nature and took opposing sides based upon their moral codes and their past prejudices and even their selfish motivations.

Paris and Janeway knew the knowledge was tainted but cared more about B'Elanna's life. Tuvok cared more about the larger moral consequences on the Federation society. Chakotay respected B'Elanna's decision and agreed with her desire to not dishonor Krel's victims by using their pain to save her life. (And maybe he does hate Cardies.) And the Doctor's actions were inconsistent and mostly driven by immediate need.

He used Krell when a patient's life was at risk. But with the crisis over, his medical principles overrode his concern for future patients. And perhaps he wanted to protect his reputation from association with such a contemptible doctor. Or wanted to restore crew harmony.

This episode presented a problem, examined it, and showed that there are no absolutely correct answers. Each character acted according to the exigencies of the moment and to their preconceived principles and prejudices. There is no universal answer; instead a personal answer for each person and sometimes different answers at different times and circumstances.

Ruth -- 3 Dec 1998, 9:12 PM

I don't believe this... the programming director at the Savannah UPN station must have something against Tommy and/or Chakotay. I finally got time to watch my tape, and you get to the briefing room, and Tom strides over to confront Chakotay and .....

static. You could just barely hear what they were saying through the noise, and the squiggly lines augmented by snow.

If it happens again during Sunday night's re-run, I'm going to be *very* suspicious.

Terry -- 3 Dec 1998, 10:52 PM

Here's a crude reconstruction, Ruth. (GI)

Doc: If I had weeks, or even days, maybe I could come up with an alternative. But time is of the essence. And Mocet's idea will work. Tom: Then you've GOT to use it. Chakotay: Even if the Doctor could perform the surgery without Mocet's help, he'd still would be using the man's research. That would be going against B'Elanna's wishes. Tom: We're talking about a woman who has alien tendrils sapping the life out of her. She's obviously not thinking straight. Tuvok: On the contrary. Her concerns are based in logic. Tom: Logic!? Tuvok: If the Doctor uses knowledge that Mocet gained through his experiments, we would be validating his methods, inviting further unethical research. Chakotay: We'd be setting a terrible precedent. Tom: We're in the middle of the DELTA QUADRANT! WHO would know? Tuvok: WE would know. Tom: (with sarcasm) Fine. Let's just deactivate the evil hologram and let B'Elanna die. At least, we'd have our morals intact.
Chakotay: Tom! Tom: And YOU, Chakotay, since WHEN do you care what Starfleet thinks? Chakotay: This isn't about rules and regulations. This is about doing what's right!
Tom: Spoken like a true Maquis. If you'd just set aside your hatred of the Cardassian for one second ...!
Chakotay: ENOUGH, Lieutenant, ...! Janeway: Alright, alright! The arguments have been made and we're running out of time. The fact is: you're both right. But when it comes down to it, the only issue I'm concerned about is the well-being of that crewmember lying in sickbay. We'll wrestle with the morality of this situation later, after B'Elanna is back on her feet. Janeway: Doctor, you have my authorization to proceed ... with Mocet's assistance. Any consequences of this decision will be my responsibility. Dismissed. Tom (softly to Janeway): Thanks.

Ruth -- 4 Dec 1998, 9:43 AM

Kewl! Thanks Terry!

Although I should confess when I first saw the title of your post, I figured you were going to draw stick figures arm wrestling, and saying things like "you suck, Tom," and "you suck more, Chakotay." ;-)

Roxanne -- 3 Dec 1998, 1:04 PM

So much for a snappy lead-in. I've only read half of the comments so far. I'll have to get to the others tonight, so if I'm repeating other people, I'm sorry.

So far though, I look to be the only one that didn't like it. It was fairly well done as far as character development, etc. I started to disagree right from the time that Janeway had the being beamed aboard. What about the star fleet guidelines of bringing in unknowns? Why weren't there stronger measures being taken? Granted, forcefields were up, but they had no idea what was happening.

Then the ethical dilemma. This is one faced by medical personnel all the time. It is one that is still resolved on a case by case basis. The biggest factor in some of the decisions is dead people don't sue, but their live family members can. Yeah, I'm cynical about medicine. That's why I'm no longer in it.

However, Janeway again did an about face. She makes the decision an order for the doctor to use the knowledge to heal B'Elanna, and then turns around and tells the EMH that he is the best one to make the decision about his program. The doctor should have made the ultimate decision about treatment, not Janeway. However, in her ending scene with B'Elanna, she was correct that she made the decision as Captain. She needs B'Elanna to get the ship back home.

The final scene with the two doctors was interesting in my mind. With the accusation that the EMH was no different than the Cardassian doctor, the doctor deleted his program. Terry (?) saw it as the doc's inability to come back with a response. I saw it differently. The doc is different. When the Cardassian Doctor was all for killing the parasite to get it off of B'Elanna, the EMH took over and saved both patients. When the Cardassian said he was no different, I took as the doc realized that in truth he did have standards with which he followed.

As to treating B'Elanna, I agree that it should not have been done. She didn't want it, and she is an adult, capable of making her own decisions.

I'll probably say more later tonight.

Whew, I don't think I've ever written as much.

Mike -- 3 Dec 1998, 2:58 PM

You're not alone, Roxanne...I'm with you. I wasn't crazy about this episode either. The acting was good and I really did enjoy the slideshow bit at the beginning, but there were too many issues that bothered me with the plot. For instance, I also thought (like you) that Janeway was out of line beaming a totally unknown lifeform aboard. Tuvok even warned her against it. I'm a Janeway fan, but I'm getting a little tired of her "I have a gut feeling" argument for doing something that her senior officers disagree with. I also disagree with Janeway putting Seven in charge of engineering, Seven should have been assigned to help out in engineering, but not put in charge of Starfleet officers on a supposedly Starfleet ship.

Eric -- 3 Dec 1998, 11:57 AM

Just how BIG is Voyagers hard-drive? OK, I know we covered this before but "Nothing Human" brings it up AGAIN! In this show we see the crew dig through CARDASSIAN OCCUPATION INFORMATION!!!

Huh?? The occupation was OLD when Voyager launched to track down the Maqui! Would DS9 have that info in IT'S computers? Sure! It is important to that station's mission so yes, it is worth the space used.

But why in HECK would Voyager on a short mission to the Badlands which is nowhere near Bajor have records on the Cardassian Occupation? Files that where detailed enough to have info on ONE Doctor including SHIPPING REQUESTS!!

This is to much, the computers have added all the astrometrics info, and all the data on the DQ that Voyager has picked up and they STILL have room for shipping requests from a Occupation that ended almost 7 years ago???

Can someone tell me where I can get a hard-drive as big as the one Voyager has?

Terry -- 3 Dec 1998, 5:40 PM

I haven't quite figured out the point of Doc's slide show. At first, I thought that its purpose was just for a light comic moment before the serious drama started. But I thought about it after the show was over and decided that it probably had another serious purpose in providing insight into the Holodoc's motives here.

Leonie, your idea makes a lot of sense. But I think that Doc was looking for more than just companionship. He wants to be appreciated for his medical exploits.

Krell is the only entity who could understand and admire his experiences and discoveries. The rest of the crew is bored by his medical findings. And Doc and Krell could collaborate as was indicated by Krell's suggestion of them co-authoring a paper on their joint efforts. Such work could gain him respect in the medical community upon Voyager's return to the AQ.

Diane -- 4 Dec 1998, 7:32 AM

Terry, about the slide show. It was all about Praise. Remember the ending where Krell talked about writing and presenting their paper and all the awards they would be given. The Docs would then go out and give speeches and presentation. As a doctor/scientist, he would normally be attending conventions and presenting papers. This first scene showed his need to do this, only he, the NON HUMAN was putting everyone else on the ship through torture with his slide show. Just like Krell did with his NON HUMAN methods on the Bajorans.

Terry -- 3 Dec 1998, 6:30 PM

Terry defends Captain Janeway from Mike's attacks!

(Bet you never thought that you would read that title. )

I liked Janeway in Nothing Human. She acted the decisive, compassionate, thoughtful, and determined captain that I love. I probably wouldn't make the same decisions were I in her place. But she was being true to her own self as any good leader should be. You can't always go by the book or play it safe. Or act as you think Kirk or Picard would.

Let's examine her actions in Nothing Human. Upon receiving a distress call from an alien ship, she acted quickly and compassionately to save the life of the lone dying survivor. (I believe that it has been established, in TNG, that Federation ships are under standing orders to answer all distress calls and render any possible assistance.) She had no reason to believe that the alien would be capable of bypassing the sickbay force field and would want to attack a member of the crew.

Given that communication with the alien was impossible, it was correct to attempt to remove the alien from B'Elanna with a minimum of violence. If anyone deserves criticism for not taking more forceful action to save B'Elanna, it would have to be the Doctor. He didn't think that her life was in any immediate danger.

Janeway reissued the original distress call in an attempt to make first contact with other aliens of that race. When that ship arrived, she was correct to take only defensive actions. While the ship's use of a tractor beam could be considered rude, Janeway would have been overreacting to strike the first blow. And at that point, she was still trying to obtain their aid in saving B'Elanna.

Look at the situation from the alien captain's point-of-view. He receive a standard distress call on an unusual frequency. Upon responding, you find the wreckage of your other ship and an alien ship. Which ship is holding one of your fellows and you can't beam him over because of their shields.

I think that Janeway made a gutsy call and showed admirable restraint, compassion, and forbearance. In the best tradition of Trek's first contacts.

Terry, Champion of the Auburn Queen

Mike -- 3 Dec 1998, 8:57 PM

This is just too weird for me, Terry......maybe it's the full moon out tonight :^). I don't agree with some of Kate's actions in this episode, Terry, but I'm happy to see that you liked her and found reasons to defend her.

I guess if I had to boil it all down to just one thing that bothered me most, it would be the fact that the alien seemed to think its own survival was more important than B'Elanna's life. It was using poor B'Elanna like a disposable food source, sort of a half-Klingon Juicy Juice carton, [eh?] if you will :^). It's hard for me to justify Janeway's risk, when the being she saved seemed to care about nothing but its own life. I still feel it was silly of Kate to say "you're welcome" to them at the end. They seemed rather unconcerned for the Voyager crew and other life forms in the area. For instance, even their distress call was a very destructive force wave requiring Voyager to put up its shields or possibly be destroyed. But still, we are talking about my Katie here so I have to give her some slack :^). Who am I to debate with someone else that's trying to defend her for a change? It's very refreshing.

Mike (even when Kate's wrong she's cute)

Terry -- 3 Dec 1998, 9:11 PM

IIRC, that energy wave/distress call was harmless. I think that it is reasonable to assume that a distress call that damages or destroys any potential rescuers makes absolutely no sense. So we should conclude that any harm was completely unintended.

Which leads into the discussion about B'Elanna. You have an excellent point about the alien harming B'Elanna without provocation. The only mitigating factor might be that perhaps the alien didn't realize that it was endangering B'Elanna's life. Or perhaps didn't recognize her as an intelligent being. Or even that it was not in its right mind.

These possibilities might not be persuasive but the point is that we (and Janeway) didn't know for sure. The only thing that she knew for sure about the aliens is that she didn't know anything. So she decided to give the alien the benefit of the doubt. It was the Trek thing to do.

Mike -- 3 Dec 1998, 9:49 PM

More on the energy wave, Terry,...

Terry said:
"I think that it is reasonable to assume that a distress call that damages or destroys any potential rescuers makes absolutely no sense. So we should conclude that any harm was completely unintended."

I'm not sure about that, Terry. My thought was that the energy wave was not destructive to the AOTW's technology, but was destructive to others. Maybe they only intended others of their own kind to successfully receive the message. I found no reason to assume that the force wave was unintentional since it did contain what Kim(?) thought was a distress signal. Even when Voyager later relayed the distress signal it was shown as another force wave emitting from Voyager. The method of their distress signal combined with the way B'Elanna was used against her will, leads me to believe that the aliens only cared about themselves and not the safety of other life forms.

I didn't accept beaming aboard an unknown as the proper decision to make after that energy wave almost destroyed the ship, but I do totally agree with your last sentence. What Janeway did was, as you said in regards to tradition, "the Trek thing to do".

Terry -- 4 Dec 1998, 8:01 AM

Does Nothing Human's title hold a deeper meaning?

On the surface, it just refers to the strange alien that attacked B'Elanna. It is literally not human. But which AOTW is?

The phrase "nothing human" reminded me of one of my favorite quotes from the Latin poet, Terence. "Homo sum: humani nihil a me alienum puto" which is usually translated to mean "I am a man; nothing human is alien to me." In Trek terms, we should replace the word human with sentient or another word meaning any intelligent being.

It probably refers to the suffering of the Bajorans that Krell experimented on. Krell should have cared about them; the EMH and the rest of the crew still should. And the EMH must care about all such future victims.

Terence's quote has been called the motto for humanism. It is also used by doctors to express how they must treat their patients. I found this quote from a doctor named Fromm on the Net, "If I cannot experience in myself what it means to be schizophrenic or depressed or sadistic or narcissistic or frightened to death, even though I can experience that in smaller doses than the patients, then I just don't know what the patient is talking about. And if I don't make that attempt, then I think I'm not in touch with the patient."

Diane -- 4 Dec 1998, 8:15 AM

EVERYTHING HUMAN -- my 2 cents. I got to say I really enjoyed this episode, heck I have enjoyed the whole season pretty much. Well, as I am late, as usual, getting in my post, most of the good comments have been said, but, here my 2 cents.

Like Jason, I loved that there was controversy. The theme of ethics was very well debated during the episode, and even off the episode. Specifically, I looked at this episode as the difference between instinct,logic, and morality. Heck, I looked at this episode's theme as "Survival." At some time or another everyone was acting on instinct, i.e. for survival. Everyone, that is, except the Bajoran.

Thought the performances of all, but the Bajoran, were right on the mark. Loved the Doc's getting caught up in the enthusiasm of Krell, but realizing that Krell's inhuman methods were wrong. However, I understand why he deleted the program and research, but I must say his decision to rid the data bases of the research was "Not Logical." Basically, the sacrifice of the Bajorans in vane, non-existent.

And a nothing thing that has been debated as non-existent, the P/T relationship. All I can say is "Actions speak louder than words." WOW, I felt McNeill did a great job, despite what Jason says. Paris' concern in sickbay (I couldn't help thinking that McNeill relived what he went through last January, talk about an actor having something to pull from), his arguing with Chakotay (Yea, the bucking rams are back), and his thank you to Janeway excellently portrayed a concerned lover.

And speaking of Janeway, I really have to say, Mulgrew's comments about Braga finally finding Janeway's voice are correct. This season she has been A CAPTAIN. Knowing a few Naval officers, my husband and I both agreed that every officer we know would make the same decision. I must say, I particularly like her closing comment about the Demons in the room.

Also enjoyed the scenes in the Epilogue. Chakotay telling Kim not to go to yellow alert to allow their friends to have a great time, just like they had when viewing the Doc's slides. Enjoyed Janeway's comments about court marshalling Chakotay for not going to Yellow Alert.

Well, got to get back to work, Mrs. Mac, have to listen in on all those phone conversations.

Roxanne -- 4 Dec 1998, 3:24 PM

Just to throw another monkey wrench in the works. This way, Terry can't accuse us of posting too many off topic threads. :)

Anyway, I had my tape in with "Scientific Method" on it. There are a lot of similar thoughts in this. Go back and listen to Janeway's conversation with the AOTW.

Leonie -- 4 Dec 1998, 3:55 PM

It's not that being HUMAN has NOTHING to do with it.... Scientific Method and Nothing Human while being in the same story line, deal with two very different issues,

IIRC,

The debate in that episode was, whether or not it was ethical and moral to perform experiments on one race of sentient beings in order to advance medical knowledge of another race of sentient beings and help save lives?

That question was never asked in this episode because the answer was presupposed.

It is not. Under no circumstances should it be done. NONE.

The question(s) posed in this episode are different.

Given that medical knowledge was gained by forced experimentation on sentient beings resulting in their deaths, is it ethical and moral to use that knowledge to help save lives?

Is a person who refuses to submit themselves to such treatment while they are sick really capable of making an informed decision about the continuation of his or her life?

Does the Captain really have a right to make that choice for a crew member when it is clear that acting in their right mind and judgment they chose to die?

Is is hypocritical to use that knowledge to save one life and then get rid of it preventing the saving of other lives?

Does it honor those who have been tortured and died in the name of that research to use it or not?

What a "Doctor of Death" does and in this case it's Krell and what the Borg do in terms of obtaining knowledge through other people's suffering any way different moral and ethically when it comes to the knowledge being used?

The answers are varied.
And what most of us will find out is that they are even varied within each of us.

Being HUMAN has EVERYTHING to do with it.

Great discussions everyone. I really wish I had the energy to do this one justice.

Wait, I've been all over this thread like a cheap rug, maybe it's a good thing that I don't have the energy to do this justice.

(Oh and there is always the never ending question of did Janeway act correctly in dealing with the AOTW, but that's a back discussion in this episode)

Roxanne -- 4 Dec 1998, 6:48 PM

RE: It's not that being HUMAN has NOTHING to do with it....

Leonie, I have to disagree with you. Krell took advantage of a weaker race (The Bajorans) in order to advance medical science. That is what the ATOW was doing in "Scientific Method." The only difference was the time frame. Janeway refused to have anything to do with the research when she was told that she would get the results and uses of the research after it was all done.

I have a tendency to agree with Ginny, though. Knowledge is knowledge and can be used for good or bad. Sometimes the way knowledge is obtained is lost through the ages. Ether for instance was used as a social drug in the 19th century until a dentist realized that people under its influence did not feel pain. He then started experimenting on patients.

The history of open heart surgery can be very brutal if not looked at in the historical concept. I was fortunate enough to work at the University of Utah when Barney Clark received the first artificial heart. What a courageous man he was. He knew he would probably die in the hospital, even with that heart but he went ahead with it anyway.

Sheesh, I think I've said more in the last 2 days than I have ever said, but medical ethics has always interested me. Anyway, it's just MHO.

Tracy -- 6 Dec 1998, 8:50 AM

You're right, Terry. I haven't posted my comments because after typing them in, Netscaped crashed and I lost the entire post. Twice. I finally, out of pure frustration, decided to download Netscape 4.5, and after waiting 45 minutes for it to download, it went through its automatic installation procedure, then crashed. So, I wasted alot of time NOT upgrading. Argh.

As for Nothing Human, the short of it is: I LOVED it!

I didn't agree with the Doc's decision to delete the Cardie doctor's program, but enjoyed the fact that his decision was, in my eyes, imperfect. Not your typically YAATE (complete with perfectly wrapped-up storyline). The subjects addressed in the episode still resounded in my brain long after the show was over. And I like that.

The P/T scenes: well, all I have to say is FINALLY. TPTB have finally showed us a very convincing, and normal loving relationship between these two. I don't mind so much that Tom hasn't said those Three Little Words, because, like so many before me have said, his actions spoke much louder than words.

I'm content.

Shawnster -- 7 Dec 1998, 1:34 PM

Nothing bad about Nothing Human. Well, I was surprised that I liked the episode as well as I did. I guess that just goes to show that you can't judge a show by the effects. I still think they AOTW could have been done better and not look so fake.

Putting the fake look aside, I liked the idea behind these aliens. It's nice to see sentient species that aren't humanoid.

The message behind this week's show. Now, there's a biggie. Is it the advancement of medical science or sadistic savagery? Last week I read an article about Dr. Richard Seed moving his practice to Japan where he can continue his research in human cloning. He feels that in two years he'll be able to clone a human and is chafing at the rules and regulations the United States and the European community are putting on his research. He balks at the morality issue.

So, the question is, where does morality begin and end. What is the cost of medical research or treatment? Is the saving of a life, in this case B'Elanna's, worth the price paid in the lives and suffering of the people before her?

Another moral issue was brought up, albeit unintentionally. The Doctor deletes Krell's program. Is that murder? What is the difference between the Doctor and Krell?

Next week: Tom goes to a water world and is arrested for a terrible crime. Maybe he ate a fish sandwich. Or, if that's all they have, maybe he refused to eat the fish.

Now, about the duplicity of Starfleet command. Starfleet must have known about Krell (am I getting his name right?) all along. Yes, they made it seem Krell didn't know about the torture he inflicted on the people; the crew had to piece it together based on evidence gathered from supply orders and sensor logs, but did he really not know? After it was revealed what he did, he defended his actions. His personality type provided by the computer seemed to fit the type of man he turned out to be.

I didn't believe Krell didn't have that knowledge. I thought he knew perfectly well what he did. He had all his other memories of his history. What it was like to work on Bajor during the occupation, etc... He knew and was bluffing. Even in the end, when the Doc was about to delete the program, he was reveling in his villainy. Why would he do that, unless the computer programmed him to do that? Why would the computer program him to do that unless it knew that's how he was? How could it know that's how he was unless Starfleet programmed it like that?

Diane -- 7 Dec 1998, 4:03 PM

Shawn, you ask too many questions. And that's what TPTB wanted us to do. Isn't that great? Shows that make one think instead of numb the brain.

Season 5 is Voyager's Best.

TKS -- 9 Dec 1998, 6:47 AM

Very interesting episode. It touched on many issues, patients rights, racism, medical ethics, to name a few. I thought it interesting that Moset quoted the one line from the Hippocratic oath, and the EMH echoed it. Yes after hearing the Bajoran talk about Moset as a butcher the first name that came to my mind is Mengele.

What was interesting to me is that the episode seemed deliberately ambiguous. It was clear that Moset was unethical, but it wasn't clear as to whether or not they should use the knowledge that Moset has obtained unethically. In the end they decide to use Moset's ideas, but then the Doctor deletes the program, and any knowledge that starfleet had about Moset.

Was the EMH right to get rid of helpful knowledge, well that one is difficult to answer. You certainly wouldn't want to acknowledge a cold blooded a killer. Does the ends justify the means? No! People died obtaining that knowledge, and to throw it away means that you are throwing them away as well. That I don't find acceptable. What should have been done is to note it in the database concerning anything about Moset.

Was B'Elanna great. I loved it when she told the captain "she had no right." B'Elanna had a right to chose not to be treated, by first a Cardassian, and later when she found out that he was a cold blooded killer, she wanted nothing to do with him. B'Elanna did admit that she is a racist "guilty as charged."

I thought it interesting that Tuvok took the moral high ground, as expected he would. I am going to digress a little here. In the Star Trek II, Kirk, Spock, and McCoy are discussing what Genesis will do, and Spock tells Kirk what would happen. The question is then asked would it destroy what is there, and Spock affirms it. McCoy launches into a tirade. Spock said, he wasn't discussing it's "moral implications." This suggested to me that although Vulcans were coolly logical, and perceived as cold. They were in fact moral, and had a great sense of morality. So it didn't surprise me that Tuvok expressed the morality of the situation. The logical person that he is logically pointed out that if you use Moset's methods you are validating what Moset did. Tuvok has a conscience.

I could understand both Janeway and Tom. Janeway didn't want to lose a fine engineer, and Tom didn't want to lose a loved one.

Jules -- 9 Dec 1998, 7:01 PM

This must be some alternate reality because here I am posting comments on an episode... while it's still the current episode. Okay, so that's about to change but... hey, I'm all caught up, and I'm going to make the most of it for the next few minutes while it's still the case, okay! :-)

So, what did I think of "Nothing Human"...

Hmm. Interesting. It's one of those "grey" episodes where there is no clear right or wrong. I confess however that my thoughts on it were somewhat coloured by the fact that clearly B'Elanna would not and could not be allowed to die, whatever her moral stance required. She's in the opening credits, after all...

Okay, let's start off with a rant on the state of affairs in sickbay. What are they playing at with the staffing there? Okay, dramatically I can see that it works, having all those holodeck one-on-one conversations between the Doctor and Crell, but... We still have a situation where Paris (and possibly Samantha Wildman and a couple of unseen others) are the only assistants the Doctor has. If that's so, wouldn't it make sense to have one or more of them sitting in with the Doctor and Crell to observe the surgical process, as part of that training? Okay, so Tom was busy monitoring B'Elanna's condition during the preliminary investigation, but that wasn't the case when the actual operation took place and he wasn't at the helm either. Was he just minding the store in sickbay? And was that the most practical use of his time?

On the subject of deleting Crell's program... I'm not sure quite how extensive that deletion actually was. Crell's appearance, personality, and detailed memories of his research (assuming he had any) were deleted. But I very much doubt that they'd have been able to go a lot further than that without wiping the entire exobiology database off the ship's computer. The real Crell's findings had been published, even if his methods had not. He was a prominent and respected professor, and an acknowledged expert in his field, or the Doctor wouldn't have used him in the first place. And his "improvisation" in the Bajoran work camps took place several years before Voyager was lost. Doubtless in that time others with better methods and ethical beliefs would have studied his work and his findings, in all innocence, and based their own further research in the field upon them. Does that make their work tainted too? In the strictest sense, yes it does, even if their intentions were nothing other than good. But what if Crell's work didn't directly inspire them, but just set off an unconscious train of thought at some later date? Or they were inspired by someone else who had been inspired by him? His influence would be there in their work, but it wouldn't be credited as such when they published their work, because they wouldn't necessarily know it. Short of deleting all work in the field of exobiology since Crell began his own, on the off chance that it might in some way have been influenced by him, you can never destroy all of the tainted data. And even if you could find this unlikely person who could correctly make all the necessary value judgements, you'd still have to ban anyone from ever doing any more research in that particular area.

Besides, the knowledge contained in the holographic Crell was more than just the sum of Crell's own knowledge. They downloaded Voyager's entire exobiology database into him as well. And even if they were being picky about where they got their information from, I can't realistically see that they would or could have deleted everything.

So, I'm taking the Doctor's order to the computer to delete Crell and "all related files" to refer to the activation logs, backups (no, please, stop snickering!), and suchlike that the computer would need in order to maintain a working holographic database/personality, and not the actual research itself. As I've said, it would be pretty difficult to isolate that entirely. And most of the time when the subject came up, they were talking about the hologram - which did, it's fair to say, offend many of the crew simply by being Cardassian and being a depiction of an evil and amoral monster. It was offensive, and it was deleted in deference to those objections. The data though... maybe, or maybe not. I think it's probably still there, in the database, if you were to look for it... but nobody necessarily needs to know that.

A few words on the captain's decision... At the risk of opening a whole new can of worms, I had a very interesting "Tuvix" flashback when I saw Janeway's expression at the end of the meeting in the briefing room. When everybody exits and Tom goes over to whisper that heartfelt "thanks" to her for giving the nod to the choice he'd been arguing for, he has to wait to get her attention. She won't look at him. Eventually he just goes ahead anyway, and it's only then that she turns and looks at his departing back. And her face tells an interesting story.

The thing that took my breath away in "Tuvix" was her expression at the end of it. She made the decision she had to make, with her captain's hat on, for what she believed to be the best option, but she was most definitely not happy about it. She did it because there was nobody else, and as captain she was obligated to do the dirty work that would keep everybody else's hands clean. This seemed very much the same look, and the same kind of situation. The decision she made was made as captain. It was the best one she could make for the ship and the crew... and possibly even for B'Elanna, however much she might resent it. But while I'm reasonably sure that Captain Janeway believed that she'd got it right, I really couldn't tell you whether Kathryn Janeway agreed with her or not.

It's quite likely she didn't. Certainly if you go by the (admittedly non-canon) sources of "Mosaic" and "Pathways", Kathryn Janeway has quite as much reason to hate and mistrust the Cardassians as any of the Maquis. How do we know that her prejudices didn't kick in at the sight of Crell as well? And she can't help but have been revolted by the knowledge of his crimes, and she doesn't have quite the same overwhelmingly emotional reaction to B'Elanna's plight to help her argue her way past them as Tom did. So, I wonder a little whether her gut reaction was to side with the nay-sayers and let B'Elanna refuse the treatment, even if she followed head rather than heart and ordered precisely the opposite. It's why I don't think she acknowledged Tom - that would have made it personal, not business, and I don't think she could have coped with personal. And it's why I think she was very much playing the part of "captain" when she visited B'Elanna at the end. She was distant, a little bitter, and not particularly sympathetic... but then B'Elanna isn't even close to being the only person who was compromised in the course of this episode.

And now on a more cheerful note... I see I have a few more coffee cups for my collection! Janeway thrust hers back at the Doctor at the end of the interminable slide show as if it had bitten her, whilst Tom and B'Elanna headed straight for a restorative cup of the stuff. I liked the different reactions to the show as well. B'Elanna settled herself down for a quiet doze, Tuvok was inscrutable, Janeway boot faced, and Tom fidgetted dramatically, and glanced about at his neighbours to catch their eyes in an shared expression of fellow suffering.

The moral debate in the briefing room was very impressive, and spot on character wise. And I rather liked the irony that, in his final meeting with Crell, the Doctor found that the other hologram had the more telling arguments, and that he couldn't necessarily answer them even from a superior moral stance. Instead, all he could ultimately do was exercise his right to press the off switch.

(Okay folks, you can start up a thread for the next episode now. I'm done. :-) )

Roxanne -- 9 Dec 1998, 8:30 PM

Jules, as usual, you hit the nail on the head.

I liked your comments on Janeway's decision as "Captain Janeway" and not as "Kathryn Janeway." I think you're probably right on. She has at times let the individual chose life or death, I'm thinking of the episode where Quinn decides to die.

BTW, I still haven't been able to watch Tuvix since the Psi-Phi Days.