Timeless

Jason -- 18 Nov 1998, 9:21 PM

The time of Voyager's life. "Timeless" was an interesting episode. I think it's too soon to judge it completely, given the extensive, and for Voyager, nearly unparalleled build-up but here's some fairly instant reactions:

Lets start with what was wrong. The only thing I really found missing was more emotion. I still regret not seeing Chakotay linger over Janeway's body or even take much notice that the corpses were even there at all. The crash, as exciting as it already was would have been more so if we'd seen the crew meet their demise... to really bring across the point of the dream crashing around them.

The show picked up as it moved along. The flashbacks, particularly the Galaxy class chase/initiating of slipstream were very well done. Even the first flashback was good. Thankfully Brannon Braga did not resort to the clunky sit and tell method he used in "Macrocosm" to that show's detriment.

Christine Harnos (?) --The actress who played Tessa was very good. [Archivist: Of course! She's a Long Islander!] She seemed like a natural, and it's somewhat odd to see a guest actor who fits in with the show so adeptly. Also it was nice to see her work at a 3D panel in the big confrontation. I'm not sure if anyone noticed but she was clearly pressing buttons in the middle of thin air.

Speaking of good actors, Garrett Wang turned in a nice performance, as did Beltran. There were a lot of nice things about this episode and the dialogue was certainly well written (Janeway gets off a few good lines, I was surprised when I laughed out loud over her warning about her own cooking).

Is this show a classic? It's hard to tell after one viewing. This show certainly had more to it than the typical episode... it was pretty jam packed and driven by plot all the way through. That said, the beginning was sort of slow, particularly at the beginning. There were some significant break throughs of emotion at the end when Harry sees his message to himself, but could have dealt with more throughout.

Like many episodes this season, this one is sort of a departure from what he have seen from the series before. I'm not sure why I think this season's episodes are unusual though I suspect that it is because they have focused less on the ensemble than Voyager episodes do in general. (This episode, like "In the Flesh" and "Once Upon a Time" have a fairly tight character focus.)

That's all for now... I'm going to rewatch it and I'm sure I'll have more reactions then...

Jim C -- 19 Nov 1998, 1:11 AM

Jason said:

Lets start with what was wrong. The only thing I really found missing was more emotion. I still regret not seeing Chakotay linger over Janeway's body or even take much notice that the corpses were even there at all.

He probably was of the state of mind that none of it really mattered because shortly none of them would be dead. Easier to keep your emotional distance when you have a job to do and that job will raise the dead.

Just my 2 cents.

Leonie -- 19 Nov 1998, 12:25 PM

Chak may not have lingered over Janeway's body...and I would admit, that this did make me pause when I watched it. I thought he should have too.

The thing was that he did linger, but it wasn't over the bodies, but over the sound of her voice and the position of his body when he sat in his chair on the bridge. (He turned in the same direction (to his right) as if he could see her sitting in her chair). I found that those two things were made up of a lot of emotion.

Maybe it was as Jim said. It was a lot easier to focus when Chak realized that pretty soon none of them would be dead.

Or maybe it was because,for him, seeing a dead person, he realized that this is not the person that he knew in real life (their "Katra" (for a use of a non-human religious term), what made a person more than their bodies is not there.

To me that would make more sense for a man who had a strong spiritual background. It would take things which reminded you of the person being alive, (i.e the sound of her voice and the sitting in his chair facing her)to make you stop and take notice. Those are things which connected to a live person, not a corpse.

Leonie -- 18 Nov 1998, 9:28 PM

This was priceless.....
I think I need a moment of silence....

And I also want to see the shooting of the 100th episode during the news.

Ok, news is still going on.

To tell the truth I don't know where to start, so I'll start with the obvious.

This was a Kim episode. It was a d@mn good Kim episode. Somehow or the other he has come into his own in this one. Wang did an excellent job. To me it paralleled "Chute".

Ya know, I'm going to have to think about what I want to say on this one a bit longer and I'm going to have to wait until Sunday or maybe, I wouldn't have to wait. Maybe I'll re-watch it again before that time. I do have a couple of off the top comments.

Bear with me people, I'm getting to it.

Harry Kim

Strong and forceful. In "Demon" he stated to Paris came on board Voyager he was green and we accepted that. In being good he was the model of a good officer and a gentleman. shy and hesitant. That was true. He stuttered when he spoke and never gave his own ideas even when asked.

Here we see a change in that during the present time line, Harry has grown a little. The Harry at the party was the first to suggest to Tom that they do the simulations on the Holodeck and ensure that they were in fact finding a glitch and it wasn't a sensor anomaly. He argued with Tom and bounced a couple of ideas off of him in order to get the slip stream engine to work. However in front of the Captain, he was still hesitant to make his suggestion. It was Tom who made him speak out and then, he couldn't or wouldn't shut up.

In the future, Harry is on par with Chakotay in terms of being a rebel, sticking to his conviction and we see the lengths that he would go to save the crew he loved. He became the thing that he never ever would have seen himself being. An outlaw. Here we have real, grown up Harry who may be a bit jaded, but it was understandable with the things that he had seen.

This episode gave Harry a future and it fleshed him out for me. I don't want him out an airlock. It has forced me to take another look at him. It will take some time for Harry to get to what he was fifteen years from Voyager time. But he will get there. And right now, I have a feeling that the road through his character growth will not be as inane as it was in Season IV. Well at least I hope so.

Kathryn Janeway

To me that was the second person to be focused on in the show. The parallel of Harry's decision and mistake to Kathryn's decision and mistake made in Caretaker was well written.

Kathryn wants her crew home and will do anything (almost?) to get them there. But this a different Janeway than the one in season IV. She is willing to listen. She doesn't seem to fly off that half cocked without seriously thinking about the consequences.

I really did begin to wonder if she was indeed going to cancel the launch in the morning. But then again that was suspending, my "I know that they are going to launch because what else are they going to do for an hour" thinking.

She didn't change her mind at the dinner when she was talking to Chak. But at least she asked for his opinion which showed how far she had come from "Scorpion" And the difference in the question "Are you with me?" in this episode is striking and so was his answer. Just goes to show you I was right in my fan fic. It wasn't so much the question of trust and support, but the atmosphere in which it was asked. This question was asked from one friend to another with no emotional blackmail notes attached.

The experiences of Night has changed Janeway. She has faced what is really driving her recklessness. Where it may not change all of her decisions, it certainly changes the manner in which she makes them and the attitude she has towards herself and those that she commands.

She has finally realized that no one blames her anymore for being stuck in the DQ and she doesn't have to always go about trying to make up for it in her actions and decisions. It is ironic that she is alive at this moment thanks to a certain Ensign who spent fifteen years of his life trying to make up for one mistake that killed one hundred and fifty people? (apparently Kaplan is not the only person to be resurrected. I wonder if the Catholic Church knows about this)

The final note about Janeway is that first season Janeway is back in this episode. She asked Chak's opinion, but she does stick to what she wants to be done. She understands the risk and she takes them. Action Kate is here.

Mama Janeway is also here. I'm still tearing thinking about that last scene with Harry. She understands where Harry is, because she is there. She's there, because she too questions her decisions, her actions and she understands what Harry is going through. It gives her great joy and comfort to give Harry the one thing that she could never have,.... the message that Harry has corrected the mistake that he made fifteen years ago and thanks to him they are all alive.

Excuse me while I go get a tissue.....

Continued ...

Eric -- 18 Nov 1998, 10:41 PM

Clones make a GREAT crew Leonie! I'm glad I wasn't the only one who caught yet ANOTHER new crew count!

Where are they coming from? I have 2 ideas :

1) Clones! We know this is possible in the Trek universe after all!

Janeway "We are getting a little low in the crew count Doctor."

HoloDoc (in his donut man voice) "Time to make the clones, I'll start with Kaplan47".

2) Assimilation!

Seven (in HER donut man voice) "Time to assimilate the drones".

Leonie -- 18 Nov 1998, 10:10 PM

And we have to learn to count on each other in order to make it Do you understand that?"

"Yes Captain I do"

(Janeway and Neelix, Fair Trade)

The Doctor

One of the themes that seem to be replaying itself in season V is the fact that no one on the command crew is alone. That they don't have to face what is going on around them (in space) and in side them (in character growth) alone.

Chak and the entire Bridge crew give Janeway a touch of tough love in Night. Chak and Kathryn give B'Elanna the same in Extreme Risk. And now the doctor gives it to Harry Kim in Timeless

Wang and Picardo were fabulous on the screen.

If you had any doubt that this jaded greying, wrinkled man was really "Young Ensign Kim" (Seska in State of Flux)you realized it was in the three minutes that the delta flyer had before the warp core breach. He is as confused and emotional as he ever was, but now a lot more is at stake, so now we take him a lot more seriously. This not the ravings of some green young ensign right out of the academy. But one of a man who spent fifteen years trying to find redemption, only to realize that he had failed yet again.

His moments of soul searching were totally warranted and well timed. We also find out something else there too. The doctor also shows how much the crew meant to him. At first he is contemptuous of what Kim and Chakotay were doing because they were breaking the law. But during the hour, when he learnt what the men has done in the last fifteen years and what it had put them through, he realized how close the crew of voyager were to them, how close they were to him and that's why he risked his life to save them (well at least that was the way I saw it.)

They are not a crew anymore, they are a family, that goes the distance to ensure the safety and well being of each other.

I like the way the character building episodes are going this season. I like the fact that they are not cut and dried and neatly tied up. I LOVE the fact that in their curiosity, TPTB have looked up continuity in the dictionary (and probably realized that I spelt it wrong!!). The characters are coming alive for me this season in a way that they never had before, especially The minor ones that is(Minor in the attention they were given in season IV), B'Elanna, Harry and Neelix.

But I feel like I haven't said anything yet (!?!)

Let me give you my likes

(1)To whoever wrote this show, I have one thing to say to you.....

(I am not worthy,
I am not worthy,
I am not worthy)

KUDOS, KUDOS, KUDOS.....

It was seamless (Sorry, didn't pay enough attention to see if Seven's panty line was showing in this one). IT FLOWED. At no time was I lost, or wondering what it was all about. Which was a miracle considering it was a time episode. The acting was superb from everyone, Tom, Seven, Kathryn, Kim, Chak even Tuvok and Neelix got in a few good lines. It made sense given the characters and the circumstances that they found themselves in.

(2) Ladies!!!!, your angry warrior was back if only for a short time. RB did an excellent job showing how he "left his heart on Voyager" The way that he acted when he heard Kathryn's voice and sat in his chair at her side really portrayed to me the truth of the angry warrior story. He was never going to be at peace until he was at her side. (Always!!!)

Sigh....
(sniff, sniff).....
darn here I go again..
Where's that tissue

Sorry, Tresha(?) Sex is Sex, but you would have never stood a chance if Janeway was still alive. The concept of Soulmates......

(HOOOooooonkk)

(3) What was absolutely great was the connection between TNG and Voyager in Captain LaForge. He knew what Chakotay was going through and he understood why they were doing what they did, still he had a duty to perform. But he did it knowing that if there positions were reversed, he would probably doing the same thing.

(I wish you good luck, To you too)

sniff... DARN IT, I'm doing it again.

(3) Neelix and Tuvok. great line and that has got to be the most hideous looking thing I had ever seen (Talaxian butterfly) it looked like road kill on the I70.

(4) Harry/Tom. Friendship at it's best, great scenes.

(5)Chak and Janeway. I have one comment to make to TPTB.....

You are such TEASE!!!!!

If you were a woman, you would have dates every Saturday night and it wouldn't matter if you were twenty pounds overweight and five foot two.

WELLL NOW!!!!
I refuse to get my hope up again. But take it from a woman who has been there and done that!!!, you are treading on very dangerous emotional grounds. In fact you got there at season III during Coda and Unity and if this were real life, there would be NO WAY that dinner would have happened if you hadn't been lovers. There was WTMSC (Way too much sexual chemistry) going on there for it to be just friends.

There is an old saying in my country...

(actually it was part of a song)
"Dynamite, go blow when the fuse is lit!!!!"

These people (J/C) didn't take a match to that fuse, they used Betsy!!! I thought she was going to kiss him when she came to his side and touched his face. I almost passed out. I had to keep breathing deeply and repeat my mantra...

This is TPTB,
They have no BAlls
They will never do it,
They will never do it,
They will never do it.

It worked and of course they never did it!!!!

(6, 7, 8) I've already given my Kudos to J/K, K/D (Now there's a fan fic ready to be written...Ruthie!?!) C/K ( I think this one has already been written).

I'll try again later, but now here are some nits:

(Just to be fair to the people that don't like it,)

(1)Yes the story line was as old time and has been done to the death in ST, but I will say that it was the first time that it was done that well in Voyager.

(9from above) OH, oo, oo.... I just remembered something else that I liked about this. Brannon LOST THE RESET BUTTON, Year of Hell this ain't. The crew and Harry have a message in a bottle to remind them of what had happened. That message from Harry was short and it said what needed to be said without making it too easy for Harry to gain all the answers to what he's going to be like when he gets old. This message made him think and I love the fact that he absolved his younger self from his mistake and told himself that.

(sniff...)
THAT DOES IT, where's the box of tissues

(2) You know Captain La Forge could have really taken out the Delta Flyer a lot sooner than it did. I'm betting that they must have better technology in the fifteen years since they came back from the delta Quad. But then again, maybe that was the point. Maybe he wanted to give them time to actually complete their plan.

(3) Over one hundred and fifty people on board? What is this voyage of the living dead?. I may not keep a count of how many people have perished in this ship, but TPTB are contradicting themselves, wasn't it only two episodes ago that the doctor said that there were one hundred and thirty five. I think I'm going to mosey on to the Neb after this.

Yeah right, like I'm going to shut up tonight..

(4) We must really be on the Celibate Voyage, either that or once Treya and Chak get going they don't stop; One touch ends up in sex. Call me crazy but by the way Kim said it (Those sex ed remedial lessons with Seven certainly taught him a thing or two), I thought that those two were as distant as P/T have been lately. Call me crazy but I would have liked one last kiss before my atoms were strewed into space.

(10 from above) something else I loved. Seven's being drunk, not bad for a beginner. Now for Chapter 10 in "Human Social Skills", "Worshiping the Porcelain Throne... How to beat a hangover in 10 simple steps"
LOL

OK
I'm done with the episode..
For now,
Be afraid, be very afraid.

Eric -- 18 Nov 1998, 10:45 PM

Tressa / Seska. Speaking of Seska did you notice that Tressa was looking a lot like Seska? I thought that she had come back to us when we first saw Tess peak around the corner. She even had the same kind of part as the early Seska!

Eric -- 18 Nov 1998, 11:01 PM

Come ON Leonie!!! I just got over seeing Seven of Nine's skull with her lone blue eye peeping at me!!!!

Please let's NOT have a scene of her vomiting her gift to the great porcelain God!!!!

Ugh.....need sleep...

Leonie -- 18 Nov 1998, 11:01 PM

(word from our sponsors) Get a Masters in Engineering.... At least you'll have an idea of what to do in crisis situations. I have absolutely no idea if my cable is working now.

I came home and when I switched on my TV, channel 6 which is UPN was showing the preview channel still.

When I called the cable company, the line was constantly busy. I had called twice during the day and they assured me that this problem would have been fixed by 1:30 pm!!!!

I did what any voyager Treker would have done in my place....

I slammed the phone down,
Cursed like a Trucker
Threw the Cable remote out of my sight
(That reminds me I have to go find it)

Who did these people think I was?, Eric?
Did they think that screaming on the Neb was going to make up for the fact that I missed the 100th episode of Voyager!!!!
I don't think so.

Thank God I am excessively compulsive when it comes to organization of my home. (my office is another story!!)

Found my old antenna and just disconnected the whole cable system and hooked the antenna up. That master's degree has to come in handy for something. Lord knows I'm not using it right now!!!

Thank Goodness, I get good reception. I think blood would have been shed if I hadn't seen seven days and Voyager.

Terry -- 18 Nov 1998, 9:32 PM

Beautiful 100th episode left me breathless. I really loved Timeless. This was an excellent episode which managed to work on many levels. It had almost an epic scope and looked great. And the heart of the episode was what scars what guilt and loss had done to Kim and Chakotay. And Braga managed to not push the reset button completely. Garrett Wang gave his best performance ever as Kim on Voyager. His pain and guilt was very well portrayed. The future Harry Kim was not only guilt-ridden but bitter, rude, and angry. This was a very believable extrapolation of the current Harry Kim under traumatic circumstances. His panic and despair at his second failure was a high-point of the ep.

Frankly, Wang's performance here ranks among the best on Voyager.

Likes:

Harry was so obsessed with correcting his calculations that he couldn't see the obvious solution until the Doc pointed it out. (If you can't do it right, don't do at all.) I loved the message from Harry to Harry. It was the perfect way to end the episode. I didn't see it coming despite the prior clue. The ep does have consequences on Harry despite my fears to the contrary.

All of the actors were at their best. Beltran was very good. He portrayed someone desiring to save his friends but not as driven as Harry. I wondered if he wished he had more forcefully opposed Janeway's risk-taking with the slipstream drive. Unlike in Scorpion, he let Janeway emotionally blackmail him into agreement.

Chakotay's affection for his lover, Tressa, was more more believable than with Kellin. Tressa was very good, too. And I really liked Janeway in this episode. Janeway's wry look and shrug as Harry tries to make sense of the time paradox was just terrific. Mulgrew at her quiet best.

The opening scene on the ice planet. It looked great. Nice touch when one of the two skidded on the ice. Voyager and the crew covered with frost looked great. Very well done.

Dislikes:

Ice planet had howling winds but they didn't seem to blow on Harry and Chakotay. Technobabble about Voyager's crash. Like the shuttle explosion in Day of Honor, the ship would lose power and go boom? The ship was been damaged and lost power without needing to land. This made no sense.

Minor Point:

Not really a dislike but I wasn't totally sure why Tressa wanted to help Chakotay. Her actions were so selfless. Before she was revealed as Chak's lover, I thought that maybe she was the daughter of one of the dead crewmembers. Still, I appreciated that the writers did explain why she was helping.

Okay, Flite, the indestructible Delta Flyer was damaged and destroyed. But in an alternate future which was erased. Does this count? I feel like Harry trying to figure how a future him from a nonexistent future sent him a message.

I didn't see or see and 47s but there must be some. After all, Joe Menosky co-wrote and he started the 47 thing.

Conclusion: The best ep of the season so far, by far. Great story, script, directing, acting, special effects.

Review Boy (JW) -- 18 Nov 1998, 9:42 PM

DANG IT!!!
If you LOVED it, I'm almost guaranteed to HATE it.
Grumble.
;-}
I guess I'll find out in 90 minutes...

[later, that same evening]

WHEW...
False alarm. I loved it.
I counted a couple of 47s, by the way. Well, one solid 47, and one multiple.
"Vessel approaching, bearing 1-8-***4 mark 7***."
The "Borg time index" was ***9.4***3852" (9.4 = 4.7 doubled) which Harry rounded back to 9.40.

Jason -- 18 Nov 1998, 9:44 PM

About the structural collapse, Terry... I wondered about this also and sorta interpreted it as Tuvok basically saying that the entire ship was in danger of being overwhelmed by hull ruptures and it's easier for them if it happens when they're safe on a planet rather than in space where they'd probably be sucked out in to the void of space.

But I went back and rewatched it... and I think there could be a million unexplained reasons for why they needed to get on a planet. I think the fact that the hull was definitely going to give out was the most likely, but there could be others as well.

Tracy -- 18 Nov 1998, 9:42 PM

A Timeless to Remember...
First off: I LOVED this episode!!!

From the beginning up until the end, Timeless held me enthralled. I really have almost no dislikes, except for Garrett Wang's timing, especially in the scene in Engineering when he's trying to convince the command staff to go through with the slipstream trip. He seemed way off, as if he were trying too hard. Other than that, I think he performed well, notably in the final scene (okay, so I had tears in my eyes...).

And Seven! You GO, girl! I'm still chuckling over her, um, intoxicating moment.

(From here, my review is pretty much scattered.)

I enjoyed the fluctuation from past to present, and how the two timelines intertwined, especially near the end.

Seeing the Voyager crew frozen brought tears to my eyes, too. It was really weird, knowing that they had been preserved just as they had died. Were it me, you wouldn't have caught me tromping around that ship alone, like Harry and Chakotay. Call me a wee bit superstitious, but I'd be literally walking on someone's grave (or, to be precise, in someone's grave).

And, the Doctor, oh-so-casually holding that part of Seven's skull, blech! That eyeball just staring out at us...yuck! I hope ol' Harry wasn't in the room when Doc performed the autopsy (toilet hugging moment, I'm sure).

Tessa, Chak's woman, was okay. I think she played her role well, just as garnish to the story. The writers didn't go too muh into her and Chakotay's backstory together, and that was fine by me. And Harry's explanation of her reason for being with Harry and Chakotay on their mission -- LOL! "Oh, they're having sex."

Snort. I'm sure they were.

The ice-planet crash sequence reminded me strongly of the Enterprise D's descent and crash during "Generations". Not that that was a bad thing, by no means. I am still awed whenever I watch that scene.

And the 47's...Was anyone able to catch them all?

My great expectations were met well with Voyager's 100th Episode. Or is it 99th? I dunno, I can't count past 47 anyhow.

D'Alaire -- 18 Nov 1998, 10:06 PM

Oooh, yes, the Ice Ship......was creepy! Haunted house stuff for sure!

One question though -- was was that guy doing in the jeffries tube?

Shawnster -- 19 Nov 1998, 10:35 PM

My question exactly. I wondered that too. Here they are, going into slipstream. Not the time to be crawling around in a Jefferies Tube. Then the ship falls out of slipstream and the crew are told to brace themselves, again, not the time to be crawling around in a tube.

I had a little nits about the death scene. It was creepy though.

D'Alaire -- 18 Nov 1998, 9:52 PM

Close, but no cigar...on Voyager's getting home this season. ; )

I really enjoyed this one, but I'm TIRED. Thus, I'm going to be more brainless than usual. My apologies ahead of time if I'm short and sweet.

I have to say this ep stood out for me with its direction, and its effects. I felt it when Voyager went down, all the way down to my gut (and I couldn't help but think, "Poor B'Elanna!...Well, at least it was quick....eeeeeee [cringing]"). When it cut to commercial, I could feel the stone in my chest. Whew!

The ship effects this week were excellent. The Delta Flyer, Voyager -- seeing Seven's brain outside her head was cool, too. (Sorry, couldn't help myself on that one.)

The way the plot moved and let up the details, plus the flashing back and forth was well-done, too--effective and very interest keeping. It's a style I like when done correctly. And for a while, I was looking at the clock, thinking they were concluding way too soon. But there was more to come. Nice. Very nice. I can't wait to see again to get all the details.

Bits and pieces that caught my eye on first view--

-Wang looks better older, in fact, I liked bitter Harry a lot. GW seemed about to break something at times pushing all that emotion out, but he got his shot and took it well. The letter at the end seemed a little contrived, but I didn't expect it, so at least it wasn't predictable.

-Chakotay looks MUCH better older (even if somehow Harry looked older than he did. Bring back the grey! And he did pretty darned good this week, too. I always liked him better as the criminal. It suits him to be on the run somehow.

The "They're having sex" line, though, was a groaner. I don't know why, but I frowned.

-Go Doc!!! When he railed out Harry, I mean. I love it when Doc takes a break and loses it. He did not disappoint.

-B'Elanna's great big smile. Great to see it. And the persnickety way she held up the lucky fly Neelix gave her was great.

-Really nice to see Tom doing something important and playing the heavy. That really appealed to me, seeing him both smart and serious (not to mention correct). That pilot's instinct thing was sooo palpable.

-Janeway's cooking expertise relegated to coffee. Yea! --Now drink some, Kate! (I'm certain TPTB have been here now. We are not alone. It's a conspiracy.)

-Seven, drunk. Hmm.

-Geordi. I liked his conversation, but he...eee, how do I say this? He didn't really sound like a captain, you know? But I loved his dialogue with Chakotay--It was very in character for both of them. Really good stuff, there. (Why do I still miss the VISOR?)

-IIRC, this is the first week since The Inner Light aired in which I really wanted to know the BOTW (agh! I know her name!) better. She seemed interesting, from the little I saw. I wanted to know more about her, considering what she was doing for Chakotay and Harry.

Thumbs up over here. An ep much worthy of its hundredth outing. I'm really anxious to see it again, no icky commercials to pause through and with all my neurotransmitters firing.

Eric -- 18 Nov 1998, 10:57 PM

I thought Geordi was GREAT! The only problem I think was he was stuck in a viewscreen for his part!

I wanted him on the BRIDGE of that Galaxy class!

yes. Yes! YES!!! YESSS!!! OHHHH GOD!!!!! [Hmmmm. First time, Eric?]

That was pretty much my thoughts on this episode. At least until I stopped thinking and just let it wash over me like a tidal wave. Quite simply this was the best Voyager ever. Until now Voyager has never toped the premise of it's pilot Caretaker. Until now. In fact this one would go very near the top of my favorite Trek's EVER. It was amazing, it was fun, and it had a message about loyalty and being true to yourself. It was what it is all about kids! It was Star Trek.

What was great? The whole damn thing but here is my short list :

Every time I think that Foundation Imaging can't to any better they top themselves. That crash was better than many movies I've seen, but that wasn't even my favorite! The pull back to reveal Voyager under the ice...gasp!!!!!

Harry Kim. Where is our love to hate him screw-up?? And who replaced him with a powerful actor?? Can we keep him PTB?

Chakotay. This is just what the Doctor ordered, we needed him in charge again and PTB came through in spades. Let's keep him also ok?

Seven's skull. Weird. Cool. Loved the blue eye but...ummm, let's go back to the real thing next week OK?

HoloDoc being a inspirational leader! LOL! Tempt fate indeed :-)

Captain Geordi with the First Contact eyes! WoooHooo!

Seven was in the background, but Jeri Ryan is having even more fun with her character this year! I can't wait until next week to see her take center stage again.

B'Elanna smashing a bottle over her warp core. Well no wonder they crashed, they probably had a short!

What was bad? Nothing!! But I did have one gripe :

I loved the crash, the FX and scale seemed right but I thought they cut it a little short. We never saw them go into the water. I assumed they went into a lake, 15 years is WAY to short a time to get under all that ice. But that is a VERY small nit for such a perfect episode.

Jason -- 19 Nov 1998, 7:58 AM

You win Eric! The effects were great! The sequence was very exciting, but wayyyy too short. I think we should have been able to see Voyager come to a stop. I also agree that they did a really good job with the way the crashlanding looked.

I was worried good ole Foundation Imaging would screw up the Galaxy class ship by CGI-izing it... that it would look too different from the Enterprise D model that we know and love from TNG.

About Voyager being covered with ice... I'm not ice expert but I thought that it was plausible that Voyager could have been covered by so much of it. But now that I think of it I'm not so sure. Does anyone here know how long something like this typically takes...?

Jim C -- 19 Nov 1998, 1:16 AM

Concerning the deep freeze.

Eric said:

I loved the crash, the FX and scale seemed right but I thought they cut it a little short. We never saw them go into the water. I assumed they went into a lake, 15 years is WAY to short a time to get under all that ice. But that is a VERY small nit for such a perfect episode.

You gotta guess Voyager was really hot when it hit the planet. It probably melted its own little lake to sink into. I'm just surprised the bodies weren't jellified on impact since the inertial dampers were off-line. (Actually why weren't they jellified when they dropped out of the slip stream? They were going at full impulse with no inertial dampers after all.)

Shawnster -- 19 Nov 1998, 10:42 PM

I agree. They all should have been little (big) smears on the deck.

Also, why was the rest of the ship intact? Voyager looked like you could thaw her out and fly her home. If the crew weren't smeared, they should have hit consoles hard enough to break them into billions of pieces.

And what about the ship? Still pretty much in one piece.

Lauren -- 18 Nov 1998, 10:46 PM

When I saw all the hoopla about this being Voyager's 100th episode, I expected something really mediocre. I was very pleasantly surprised. In fact, I had to tape it because my husband won't be able to watch it until this weekend, and I'm looking forward to seeing it again.

I really liked Garrett Wang. His character, and his acting, mostly leave me cold, but every now and then, he really comes through. I really believed that Harry could become so bitter and obsessed over the fifteen year period. I liked his taped message to his younger self. I wonder what young Harry must have been thinking, watching this gray-haired version of himself with that edge to him, wondering not only what must have happened in that other timeline but also how it had affected his life.

Not so clear to me was fifteen-year older Chakotay. Not that I needed a detailed biography of him since the crash, but, except for the fact that he would be "haunted" by the 150 dead, did he also give his whole life over to reversing the mistake of the past? Unlike Harry, it wasn't HIS mistake that destroyed the ship. However, Chakotay seems to not be able to let go of anything. He joins Starfleet as a young man against his father's wishes, then resigns upon his father's death. Was joining the Maquis a sort of penance for becoming a Starfleet officer? Then, as Voyager's first officer he seems, well VERY Starfleet to me. I guess that I can see, after being one of only two survivors, and not being able to rejoin the Maquis fight, as there are no longer any Maquis, that he would align himself with Harry. Still, in this future, Harry seems very much the leader and Chakotay as much his second in command as he had been Janeway's.

BTW, Terry, I think that the 47 occurred when future Doc was reciting the numbers to future Kim. Somewhere in the long list of numbers I thought I heard "four-seven..."

Oh, and I liked that little supper scene with Janeway and Chakotay. Candles, centerpiece, homecooking (wait a minute, I thought that she said that she PROGRAMMED her grandma's recipe...Chakotay's remark about her not cooking still stands, as far as I'm concerned!)soft music. Too bad they were only talking shop. Also, it is nice that the Captain asks her First Officer to critique her decision, *after* her mind's already made up.

Anyway, I thought this episode was very enjoyable. Let's face it...if and when Voyager gets home, or if any major characters die (for good), participants of this board and other viewers will know about it well before it actually airs on TV, so the episodes that feature either lead characters' deaths or going home can't rely on the suspense, we all knew that history *would* be changed and that Voyager would not get home--this time. But this episode was interesting anyway, on its own merits, due to character, acting and mood.

Terry -- 18 Nov 1998, 11:22 PM

Long, long, long time, no see, Lauren. Re: J/C is bad! Talking about Voyager, anyway.

I agree that Chakotay's motivation was less clear. Personally, I exploited that he felt guilty about giving in to Janeway's decision so easily. Frankly, I disagree with Leonie's assessment of that dinner conversation. Janeway was so intimate with Chakotay that he didn't have the heart to disagree with her as he should have.

What is up with TPTB? They are teasing the viewers with a Janeway/Chakotay romance. Again. It's about the seventh or eight time, isn't. And I know that they'll throw cold water on it again.

Don't get me wrong. I like the chemistry between these two. But it's all just a tease because TPTB always have the two just one step away from ripping each other's clothes off and then claim, "They're just close platonic friends."

I was talking with Mindy and she thought that they were just good friends but I completely disagree. Janeway was invading Chak's personal space and leaning into him at every opportunity. I'm sorry but that intimate candle-lit dinner was just a working meal between two friends and co-workers. As old Harry would put, "Oh, they're having sex." Or would be in the real world.

I think that Janeway's treatment of Chakotay is making him an ineffective first officer. Her attempt at emotional blackmail in Scorpion may have failed but now Chakotay refuses to disagree when she bats her eyes and asks for his support with a tear in her eye. It is emotional blackmail. *Say you agree with me or my feelings will be hurt.*

Why is she even asking for his support like that? What's the point? He disagrees with the logic of her decision but he will voice no public opposition and carry out her orders. Why is she making him back down and pretend to agree with her? Riker or Spock would not have let Picard order such a risky course of action without a strong and spirited dissent.

Lauren, about the 47's. I did listen to the long series of about 7-8 digits in Seven's doodad frequency and was surprised to hear not a single 47. But I know there must be at least one somewhere.

Leonie -- 19 Nov 1998, 12:56 PM

I'm glad we disagree Terry, I am beginning to think that I'm the only person on this board who agreed with you most of the time.

Sheesh, what would that make me!!!
Well at least I don't do GIFFs very well.

I still maintain that it was different from Scorpion. There was no emotional blackmail, or at very least if there were, it certainly wasn't on the scale of the one which occurred during the conflict between Scorpion/8472.

I say this because Chak was given the opportunity to disagree with Janeway during timeless unlike Scorpion. I also say that because the tone was much more respectful and it seemed to me that she really wanted to know what he thought. During Scorpion she didn't give a rats a<>ss about what anyone thought.

And oh come on!!, he is a man isn't he? (OOOooo he is!!!). She was obviously not going to jump him. He could have argued with her if he wanted. Mostly men feel that the ultimate expression of female blackmail is the presence of tears. (Nothing reduces a grown virile man to a Jell-O puddle of uncertainty like a woman who burst into tears). She cried during Scorpion (Or I should say her eyes filled, but not here.

There was also the speed at which the answer came back to her. To me that confirmed that there was no blackmail involved. And since when was he ever concerned that her feelings would be hurt!!!

However I do agree with you on this...

(Oh Darn, I've done it again)

I don't know what Mindy is talking about, but if that was a platonic friendship, I have a name for it...Delusion.

Janeway invaded his personal space big time and she did it with the grace and style of a lioness in heat!!!

There are intimacies between male and female friendships, and some do get very emotional and very touchy and the two friends can be in personal spaces of each other a lot.

Not like that though!!! AND NOT with that much chemistry.

Leonie -- 19 Nov 1998, 1:05 PM

The other thing that I have to point out is that while Chak may have had some doubts about the ability of the plan to work, I don't think that they were as great as the ones he had in Scorpion.

I love the character dearly, but when he began to disagree with her, I was thinking to myself, "Oh come on, now, take some chances."

To me what they were proposing was not as risky and as reckless as some of the things that Janeway has wanted to do and has done in the past. (Scorpion One comes to mind!!) Helping the Borg assimilate 8472 could have made them a lot more powerful than they were before and virtually unstoppable. Not only would there be 150 deaths on her conscience, but the annihilation of countless amounts of races on top of that.

In not having as many doubts about the consequences of her actions in Timeless as in Scorpion, It is easier for him to trust her and to accept her decision than it was.

I think that Chak picks and chooses his battles very carefully with her. One should do that when one is dealing with one's CO.

Carol -- 19 Nov 1998, 2:53 AM

You have to remember....this is a man who once told Janeway that she (and to some extent, Voyager too probably) brought
him peace. Before that, he was always angry, at odds with everything in his life -- a contrary. I think once he lost that peace, he felt like less of a person. Tressa said that Voyager (and probably Janeway too) still had his heart.

I didn't see any emotional blackmail in the dinner scene (and I was one of the first to scream it after the briefing room scene in Scorpion. I guess I agree with Leonie -- I saw it as one close friend asking another close friend for his support, not a Captain asking it from her first officer. It's the setting that took it out of the professional realm.

Of course, as a J/C'er, I like to think the point of the dinner was to show that (being on the verge of returning to the Alpha Quadrant), Janeway and Chakotay may have been thinking and n talking of moving their relationship to the next level when their no longer on Voyager anymore. :-)

I must be in a optimistic mood tonight. :-D

Roxanne -- 20 Nov 1998, 9:31 AM

My thoughts exactly, Carol. One of the reasons that I have such a hard time with Chakotay falling for all these women is that I don't see the chemistry between them that is between Janeway and Chakotay. I'm still not sure if I want to see more than the deep personal friendship as in the scene in Stellar Cartography last week or if I want to see it go into a love relationship.

Anyway, I loved the show. As far as Chakotay's reasons for helping Harry, I think it's because he knew that Voyager was his home. Without Voyager he was lost.

You guys can't tell I'm a Chakaholic and a JetCer?

Vickie T. -- 20 Nov 1998, 7:29 PM

I guess I'm feeling optomistic, too, Carol. That's exactly what I thought about the J/C dinner scene - Janeway was thinking that since they would be back in the Alpha Quadrant tomorrow and Chakotay would no longer be under her command, she could loosen up and let Chak know she was interested in pursuing a non-professional relationship.

I also agree with what Terry said: That was not a scene between two platonic friends. The way Janeway stood close to Chakotay, put her hand on his shoulder and then touched the side of his face - that was, IMO, a very sexual gesture, not platonic by any stretch of the imagination.

Ruth -- 20 Nov 1998, 7:45 PM

Plus, when I watched "Timeless" again last night. I noticed the lighting in the dinner scene again. I think if most of us were inviting a business associate/close friend over for dinner, and we had no romantic designs on that person, we'd want them to be able to see what was on their plate.

Or maybe her cooking was *really* bad and she didn't want him to see what he was eating. ;-)

But really, the whole set up from the lighting, and the cozy little table, screamed ROMANCE.

Carol -- 19 Nov 1998, 2:10 AM

"The Time has come," the Walrus said, "to talk of..."...Voyager's 100th episode.

Without reading the other posts here yet, for my money, this is one of the best episodes of Voyager ever done. With only a few problem points here and there, I completely enjoyed this episode.

Cheers

Thank goodness it was only a half-reset at the end. :-) I was worried we'd get another Year Of Hell ending. Harry's message to himself was quite inspired.Like Janeway though, I'm not even going to try and make sense of the temporal paradoxes in this episode.

Garrett Wang's performance -- I don't even remotely think he's even close to being on-par with Mulgrew, Picardo or RDM acting-wise, but he made me believe Harry's desperation and guilt at killing everyone he cared about. I believed future Harry's bitterness at himself and Starfleet for what happened and Starfleet not trying to help him all those years. And his aggression during the Engineering scene shows that that little speech he made to Tom in Demon about wanting to assert himself more

Robert Beltran was fine as well. The future Chakotay seemed to have lost his spirit and become more -- I don't know the word. I want to say "nervous" but that doesn't seem quite right. He seemed quite more upbeat and witty in the scenes dealing with the past (checking the systems in the Delta Flyer and asking Harry what he had for lunch as part of the checklist) than he did in the future scenes (he seemed unsure of himself or something when they were trying to out maneuver the Challenger). Tressa (I think that's her name) said something about his spirit still being with Voyager and he apparently lost it when the ship was lost. In the early drafts of the script, it was Tom who was with Harry in the Delta Flyer during the crash (you can still see the set up for it during the Voyager scenes when Tom is worried about the slip stream during the party), but I didn't mind the change to Chak instead.

I knew it was coming, but the dinner scene between Janeway and Chakotay was personable and lovely (Candles? Romantic piano music? Touchy-feely? [BEG]) Very slick Braga to cut it when you did and leave the rest of it to our imaginations (and thank you for not erasing it with the reset button). And I didn't even mind Chakotay's love interest in the future (I'm a J/C'er but hey, Kate was a frozen Starfleet-cicle :-). They had a nice chemistry together, even though her character was completely pointless (But I'll get to that in a moment -- and it didn't hurt that the reset button completely erased her at the end though. I know -- I'm evil. :-)

Good lines abounded:

-- Harry to the Doc about Chakotay relationship with Tressa: "They're having sex." I screamed with laughter at that one. Yeah, just be direct about it! :-)
-- Chakotay: "I'd like to thank the Borg Collective..."
-- Doc: "Ensign!" Harry: "I go by Harry now." Wonder if Harry ever got that promotion before he resigned. :-)

Levar Burton's direction was just great. Much better than his last outing on Voyager with The Raven. The crash of Voyager was great, as was the slow-motion scene worth B'Elanna going to christen the slip stream drive (I had a sneaking suspicion that scene would start out in slow-mo). The confetti and streamers, the cheering, etc. Wonderful Voyager Family scene. And the teaser was wonderful.

I'm of two minds about the selfishness of Chakotay and Kim. Chakotay, having been a former Maquis rebel I had no problem with his selfishness with wanting to get Voyager back, even if it meant changing history and millions of lives to do it (this is the same man who thinks Starfleet is rum by "duty-crazed bureaucrats" after all). And I guess Harry's guilt got to him so much that his lifelong faith in Starfleet that he's shown since episode 1 had worn out by the time they reached this point. I like the implications this merits about how close they are to the Voyager crew -- but I know its not exactly a "Starfleet" thing. (Can you see Sisko trying to change the events of Wolf 359 just to get Jennifer back? Or Picard trying to make the events of Jack Crusher's death never taking place? I didn't think so). Anyway, part of me liked it, part of me saw the implications of it below the surface.

Jeers

What point, exactly, did Tressa have in this episode? I mean, besides having sex with Chakotay and helping to fire the phasers at Geordi's ship ? :-) The scene between her and Chakotay was very nice and I liked her comment about his heart still being with Voyager, but ::shrug::? Guess Robert Beltran and TPTB are determined to show us that Chak's not a eunuch. :-)

What point, exactly, did Geordi LaForge have in this episode? I guess I was hoping to see him more and what we got disappointed me since it was so little. It really could have been any captain that we saw on the video screen. Course, since LeVar Burton was on the set, I guess it was easy just to cast himself. :-)

I laughed hysterically at Seven's drunk scene, but there was something underneath that I didn't like about it. I can't put my finger on it though.

Anyway, that's all of now. I rank this as the best episode of the season (so far) and one of Voyager's best overall.

ande -- 19 Nov 1998, 2:53 AM

Was that Ro Laren? So for like 1.47 seconds I thought "What's Ro doing on Voyager?" but then common sense took over and I realized that it was Dr. Green's mean old ex-wife. Everyone has already stated anything I could say about the episode, so I'll just say: It was good, I really liked it and it was one of the best Trek episodes I've seen.

Likes:

7 intoxicated. Cute, especially when she was, uhm, patting the doctor's chest.

Wow, a Harry episode that I like. I'm not even ashamed to admit it.

Good writing, an almost re-set button that I didn't really notice or mind.

An ending that seemed like an ending and not a YAATE.

J/C is not dead

Tom as a mature, intelligent, professional, cool

Dislikes:

So how many crew members are there? Just two short weeks ago the doctor stated that there were 125 crew members, now there are 150 again?

Old Harry looked older than old Chak

Part of 7's skull in the doc's hands for several scenes, yuk

Where did all of the bodies on the bridge go? I didn't see any when Chak and Tessa went back down to the ship. I hope they weren't there, because if Janeway was laying right there as Chuck was sitting in his chair...well, that would have just been too strange.

Only about 15-20 seconds in slip stream and they get 10 years? Wow!

So, how many years are left on the trip? They started off at 75, Kes gave them ten, 2 years from that worm hole thing in Night, and almost a year from the other slip stream experiment and now ten more years this episode, oh, plus 4 years of traveling. About 27 years, so about 48 years left? Anyone else done the math and have an opinion?

Jules -- 19 Nov 1998, 5:48 AM

How far home? Sad creature that I am, I have indeed done the necessary calculations. (For my web page, I hasten to add, not just on the offchance that somebody might ask about them one day.) My ears perked up immediately I heard mention of another ten year gain. It's something I'm very much in favour of, trimming the long long journey down to the point where home is almost - but not quite - within their grasp. It's got to be good for crew morale, and gives us the chance to have a few shoot outs with the Romulans in, say, season seven or eight. :-)

70,000 light years from home (according to the publicity trailer on the CIC videos, anyway. Caretaker itself doesn't say anything more definite than "over 70,000 light years" and "more than 70 years". I'm not sure where the 75 years figure came from.)
Down to 67,000 light years by the end of season three just by sheer determination and averaging 1,000 light years per year.
Down to 57,500 light years after The Gift, when Kes gave them a 9,500 light year push.
Down to 56,200 light years by the end of season four, courtesy of the usual 1,000 per year and the 300 extra light years they made up from their brief time in slipstream in Hope And Fear.
Down to 54,200 light years by the end of Night, courtesy of that two year surf through the vortex with a shockwave on their tail
Down to 44,000 light years by the end of Timeless, as a result of being 20% of the way through the season (subtract 200 light years) and gaining another 10,000 (or ten years) from a second slipstream trip.

Of course, this is only the best possible case (with one exception, which I'll get to in a minute). There may have been any number of unanticipated detours that even Janeway couldn't punch her way through, which lengthened the original estimate of the journey. In Message In A Bottle the improbably high figure of 65,000 light years from home is mentioned, when by my calculations they should have been down to about 57,000! Or less, since the problematical Year Of Hell also claims that the Astrometrics Lab has allowed them to plot a route to cut a further 5,000 light years from their journey during its first pass through that period in time. Feel free to allow or disallow those 5 years as you wish, but my head hurts. I guess that the distance from home is about as accurate as the crew head count.

Eric -- 19 Nov 1998, 11:37 AM

Were Seven's figures re-set? Jules I always thought Seven's new route home was a constant since her Astrometrics lab survived the re-set button, especially since after Hope and Fear she is a active member of the crew now. And is willing to help the crew get home.

Shawnster -- 19 Nov 1998, 10:48 PM

The way I figure it... If they get a couple more big jumps like this, they should be able to make it home by the time the magical seventh season rolls around.

Berserker -- 19 Nov 1998, 2:50 AM

Timeless would have been perfect......if Harry had sent the message "Don't go" back in time to a DRUNK Seven. Harry doesn't remember that she was drunk, and only sends a "Don't go" message to some time before takeoff (makes more sense than some fancy numbers he calculated real quick). As a result, she either:

a) gets it, but no one believes her, so she goes on her own (maybe with present Harry's help, when she convinces him him it was from future Harry) and stops things, and everyone hates her for it.

b) or she is too drunk to remember and they die. This would of course tell the end of the series and would require a little date shifting (say, set the slipstream takeoff another four years from now). This would have been gutsy as hell (and maybe a bad idea, since as B5 has shown showing the end of your series a couple of years is a bad idea).

Either way, it would have added another plot wrinkle to what was well done Braga episode. The characterization was great but the plot felt done, even if it hadn't. I would like to see a time travel episode where they only screw things up. We almost got it when Harry caused the crash again, but not quite.

Still, a darn good hour. Year 5 rolls on...

Terry -- 19 Nov 1998, 7:52 AM

I disagree, Berserker. Your ideas would just have taken the story away from its core which is the future Kim's actions. The story in the past is not where the action is or should be. Maybe in a two-parter. In a single ep, your story is another Seven-saves-the-ship again. Original. Not.

Your ideas take away the key decisions from the future characters to those in the past. This is a different story. The future Kim's story is what made this episode so good.

Hey, you don't get away with dissing Extreme Risk scot-free.

Jules -- 19 Nov 1998, 4:55 AM

Ah, Berserker, you're a twisted soul. Proposing loops within loops within loops. I love that tortuous logic and extra turn of the screw, and I'd love to see more of it done... but sadly television generally opts for the safe option and the lowest common denominator when I'd rather have my mind stretched a little.

I think I'd go with scenario #1 though - drunken Seven saves the day but nobody realises it. (Although you'd have to be really careful that that didn't turn into Star Trek's patented reset button.) I've encountered far too many stories where the ending is set in stone, and they're generally a mistake. They tend to hamper subsequent creativity right up until the point where the writer(s) finally give up on their set end point and throw continuity out of the window to give themselves some breathing space again. And season five seems to have given a welcome fresh injection of continuity (in the little things) to the series, so I'd rather not encourage its demise any time soon.

Tracy -- 19 Nov 1998, 8:42 AM

A Voyager on ice, please; shaken, not stirred...

Jason, I was under the impression that Voyager's hull was more than likely still superheated from her rapid descent into the planet's atmosphere. And, so, upon impact, and the resulting skim across the surface, when she did stop, she slowly melted the snow and ice underneath, and re-froze upon cooling. Or maybe I'm thinking too hard.

Or it could have landed in a not quite frozen lake, although it looked as though the planet was pretty much covered in ice, making this possibility unlikely.

And I disagree about seeing the ship stop. I don't think it was necessary to see it come to rest at all. The way it was presented left a lot to our imaginations. We didn't have to see the crew die, we already knew it did.

Eric -- 19 Nov 1998, 11:22 AM

Thanks Jim, Tracy my bad!
DUH! I forgot about a superheated hull!
Of course it would melt the ice!

Trust me, FI has no grater critic then me. When they screw up (Rise anyone?) I get very annoyed because I know how good they CAN be. That's why I was VERY interested to see how they would do a Galaxy class. And it IS a little different in CGI, we see more light FX (shadows, glare etc) and it seemed a little more streamlined somehow. But overall I think they did a superb job.

BTW : Here is a challenge to all CH folks, have you noticed the difference between Voyager the model and Voyager the CGI? I was VERY surprised when I watched Caretaker again!

PegN -- 19 Nov 1998, 10:04 AM

I agree, Terry, this was sooooooo good!

I'll have to rewatch Saturday night with the Bartster (yep, she missed it, sort of).

I was so pleased at Garret Wang's performance. His 15 Year Hence Harry was bitter and disillusioned(sp) and Wang played it well. I loved his face at the end, watching the taped message from the future.

I don't know about Beltran though. I could understand Harry's desperation and obsession in fixing the past but I didn't completely buy into Chakotay's part in the scheme (but that's a nit). I did like Chakotay with Kate in her quarters about her cooking ("I'll alert Sickbay.") I do like Chuck's quiet sense of humor.

It was nice to see Seven do something different. Her intoxication and scene with Doc was really cute. BTW, I am looking forward to next week's ep with the "Three Faces of Seven" theme.

Iced over Voyager was eerie as was the frozen crew. (Hey, I'll bet Tom's eyes were really blue as was the rest of him in this ep. Sorry, macabre humor.--Evil Margaret is thinking of a Tomsicle right now.--)

After being uninvolved in the last two episodes, I was appropriately and alternately moved and on the edge of my seat.

Fliteman -- 19 Nov 1998, 11:56 AM

I'm going to echo just about everyone above; I have very few nits about this one. One, I don't think they'd break a champagne bottle on the circuitry in engineering. Maybe that's just me. And, someone mentioned above - the young Harry DID try too hard to push his solutions to the problems with the slipstream drive. And, IMHO, Janeway caved too quickly. They could've tested more & come up with some solutions for a more than a day... They've been gone 4 years, 2 months, 11 days - another two weeks wouldn't hurt anything. Aside from that, however... This was a great episode.

The GOOD points:

The shifting back & forth between timelines; Challenger chasing the shuttle, then Voyager... Very nicely done.
The interplay between Geordie & Chak. I LIKED how they wished each other luck. It reminds me of the story of the two colonels in the Civil war that had been friends prior; Before the battle, they had lunch together, laughed, and remembered, then wished each other well. And then proceeded to try to kill each other.
Seven getting tipsy. "You are my mentor!" (I wish it'd been followed by "I love you, man!")
Paris sulking about the outcome of his tests... He's gone a long way from being a guy out of the stockade, to being the perfect pilot. Don't you think they could've simulated Harry's ride in the shuttle to test their ability to direct Voyager in the slipstream...?

And, the special effects of Voyager crashing. Very nice. At one point, Harry says that decks 15 through 9 have been compressed to 1 deck - although we didn't see that in the impact... And... depending on how the inertial dampners were functioning, I'd expect the bodies Kim & Chak find to be thrown toward the front of room. Instead, they were sprawled everywhere (which, may be possible) but if the dampners were functioning, they wouldn't have had to worry about the impact... Harry's note to himself... I got a little lump in my throat. I thought it was very well done. Especially for Harry.

Now... The Pool...

I've seen a couple of mentions above about 47's being said... Well, I need to review the tape again; I didn't hear any. The Flyer was damaged, then destroyed, but in an alternate timeline, and 15 years in the future; by the time the show ended, that timeline no longer existed... So, in my infinite wisdom, and as the show is set for present-day Voyager, I'm not counting the destruction. I will review the tape, and listen for the 47's everyone seemed to hear...

Expect an update this weekend.

A couple of puzzlements... It was nicely explained why the Federation was able to pursue Chak & Kim; Voyager was only a few parsecs away from the Federation space before crashing. Puzzlement... How CLOSE did the Chak & Kim of the future have to be to contact the Voyager of the past...? Since they're still about 45 years away, that means they have to be about 45,000 light years off - still in the Delta Quad... Just something to make you go "hmmm."

Terry -- 19 Nov 1998, 5:38 PM

They were using a Borg transmitter and ... IIRC, the Borg are able to transmit over that distance. At least, it seemed to me that the Borg attacking the Federation in BoBW and First Contact still seemed in full contact with the Collective back in the DQ.

Fliteman -- 19 Nov 1998, 6:11 PM

Okay... I'll buy that. Thanks, Terry. NIM

Ruth -- 19 Nov 1998, 1:24 PM

Time always seems to get away from me... but I've got enough of it now to comment. I also loved this episode. Despite the fact that it was only an hour show, in its impact it really had the feel of a movie, rather than just another episode. The opening was very cinematic, as was the eventual unveiling of Harry and Chakotay. It was one of the first times I've really regretted reading Voyager spoilers; I usually don't mind knowing things in advance, but I think I'd have really enjoyed being surprised. (Years ago I read a review of THE EMPIRE STRIKES BACK before I saw it, and they told what happened to Han Solo, and I've always regretted that.)

My only real problem with the show revolves around what Flite just said; I thought the decision to go with Harry's new plan to use the shuttle was much too abrupt. I know their power source, or whatever was deteriorating, but they had just gone through 23 simulations with just VOY; couldn't they have taken the time to do one or two with the Delta Flyer? I would have liked to at least see a little more tension over the fact that yes, we ought to slow down, but gosh, we're on the verge of getting home and we just can't wait anymore. I've actually been a little surprised that there hasn't been as much of the usual Monday morning quarterbacking we usually see about Janeway's decision making.

Well, one other thing. I forgot to unplug my phone last night and I got a phone call during some of the early scenes so I may have missed something, but I was surprised that Harry hadn't thought of aborting the slip stream maneuver altogether until that point at the end. I guess it was b/c they were still working on the assumption of getting the ship home safely, rather than continuing to strand it in the DQ.

I thought both Chakotay and Harry were great. A lot has been said about Harry, so I won't say anymore, but I didn't have the problem with Chakotay's motivation and demeanor that some of you had. Chakotay's loyalty to what he believes in, or those he's sworn to protect has been well established, and I would assume his guilt would be just as strong as Harry's. He *didn't* overrule Kathryn, and plus, as Harry pointed out, survival guilt would be very strong. Both men were obviously bitter about Starfleet's actions in the aftermath of their return, and it seemed to me that neither man had really moved on and established a life after they left Voyager, Tressa aside.

I also think it was much better that it was Chakotay with Harry than Tom. This is obviously sheer speculation, but given Tom's background, I kind of doubt he'd have been able to hold it all together even to the extent the other two did if he believed he'd done something that left him to survive while the rest of the crew perished.

As to Chakotay not lingering over Kathryn's body, didn't the camera break away to Harry just when he found her? Maybe I'm wrong about this, but if so then we don't know what his reaction was. And as to there being no goodbye kiss between Tressa and Chakotay, I thought the way he held her hand was indicative of the way the relationship had been hinted at throughout -- they were lovers, and they obviously cared and trusted for each other, but I didn't get the idea that it was the stuff from which fanfic is made.

And now for a comment that is totally superficial: Beltran looked hot! Black leather and gray hair definitely work for the man. Sweetie, throw the uniform and the shoe polish out the airlock!

I like "what if" kind of stories, and I thought this one was very well done. And, as others have mentioned, it was great not to see the "reset button." YOH would have had so much more of an impact if Kathryn's logs or something could have somehow survived. Using Seven's technology to transfer the information was clever, and helped make the ending much more satisfying.

Terry -- 19 Nov 1998, 5:54 PM

But Tom would have no reason to feel guilty, Ruth. Kim has a strong and very valid reason for feeling guilty. He suggested a last-minute kludge, pushed for it to get accepted without testing, promised everyone that he could handle the pressure, and screwed up royally. And Chak failed to talk Janeway out of a very, very rash decision to proceed immediately with an untested solution.

But Paris would have been piloting the Delta Flyer and would be free of any responsibility for the disaster. Except for the decision not to turn back (which really would have been just suicide.) In fact, he tried to stop the slipstream test with his tests and concerns about the new drive. Further, any normal survivor's guilt that he would naturally feel would be alleviated by the need to convince Harry that he wasn't to blame. It's tough to act guilty when you're trying to cheer up a friend who was really responsible.

Ruth -- 19 Nov 1998, 8:53 PM

Tom would have had at least one reason for guilt. He'd been the one running the simulations, after all. He's the one who watched Voyager lose "structural integrity" 23 times. He, as much as anyone else, should have pushed for a test with the Delta Flyer. That wouldn't have been all on his shoulders (Janeway, Kim, and Chakotay would probably have been more culpable), but I still think it would have bothered him, especially given what happened to the other friends of his who died. And think, we could have seen him say, "And I never even told B'Elanna I loved her," and watch all the folks that got mad at him last week throw rotten vegetables at their tv. ;-)

I agree that for this particular story, however, Chakotay was the more natural character to be "saved" along with Harry.

Anyhow, it is interesting to speculate how the others might have reacted if they'd been the ones. Imagine if it had been Mama Janeway.

O. Bleek -- 19 Nov 1998, 3:26 PM

Had to come out of hibernation to say: Timeless KICKED A$$! It rocked! It rolled! It made up for last week's cr@ppy episode, and the crappy ep before that! They finally got all their sh!t together and came up with a truly GREAT episode. I'll watch it again Sunday for sure.

Gotta go, Bye!

Ginny -- 19 Nov 1998, 5:11 PM

TIME out!

I can't believe it. You people really liked this episode? What kind of drugs were you on last night?

Sorry. I apparently caught something from someone on the flight back from SF, and it's made me cranky and just a little delirious. I actually thought TIMELESS was an extremely entertaining episode, but I was sickly last night and this morning and fell asleep before I could get it watched a second time. I'll have specific comments tomorrow.

And I'll also have an updated 47 count for ONCE UPON A TIME.

Vic G. -- 19 Nov 1998, 5:11 PM

For me, "Timeless" was one of the best ever Voyager episodes. It had something for everyone. A great story line, though a bit overdone, it had a refreshing twist for me. Who wouldn't want ot be able to go back in time to change a pivotal point in thier lives?..there was romance and action. All the characters had some role in this but of course, it was a Harry Kim story. I loved seeing LeVar Burton guest starring, since I'm a huge Next Gen fan. This was well written and well directed. I loved seeing Harry and Chakotay as their older selves. Who wouldn't find those touches of grey in Chak's hair a bit sexy? I even kind of liked that straight back hair of Harry's. And what was that hand on his face gesture that Janeway gave Chakotay before she served him dinner??? What are we supposed to think?

I really love the idea that Voyager is ten years closer to home. I can envision the very last show they do...arriving home to Earth and it will be a very emotional and touching end to the series. I can see it now!

Vickie T. -- 20 Nov 1998, 7:52 PM

A Home Run! I didn't get to see the whole show until last night, and now all the good comments are taken! Here are just a couple of thoughts:

Chakotay looked gooood. Loved that gray hair. Loved that outlaw attitude. Oh yeah. Mmmmm. I like that guy. Really like that guy!

Garrett Wang did a good job. His older, bitter Harry was mostly excellent.

Was I the only one who, during the scene where the holodoc was holding Seven's skull in his hand, kept thinking, "Alas, poor Yorick, I knew him well?"

This episode definately ranks as one of my favorite Voyagers of all time. Yes, of course I had a few nits, but they are really inconsequential compared to the many pluses of the episode.

Oh, by the way, did I mention how good Chakotay looked in this episode?

Mindy -- 21 Nov 1998, 3:56 PM

MOST UNEXPECTED LINE IN STAR TREK EVER!!!
"They're having sex".

And said in such a way that we all know (at least the adults among us) that what Harry was REALLY saying was "They're [F-wording]".

Loved it, loved it, loved it.

(I am at work currently sneaking some time with you guys...)

I have to say that I really enjoyed TIMELESS, and also mostly agree with O.Deus's "Part 1" critique...haven't read his "Part 2" yet...best Wang performance ever...Beltran in general has woken up this season...and I am a major Picardo fan, so it is very hard to critique his stuff honestly...although the reason I'm such a fan of his is because he consistently (IMO) has been the best performer on the show.

Carol -- 21 Nov 1998, 8:33 PM

That line basically summed-up Tessa's character though...no matter how funny it was (like I said before, I screamed with laughter).

But how many woman -- and men for that matter -- would tolorate their lover's friend basically calling them nothing more than a "casual lay" (I wont use the F-word :-)? Tessa didn't seem to have a problem with it much.

It was a great line in that it showed how bitter Harry had become over the years, but it reduced Tessa's character to just gratuituos IMO.

Ginny -- 22 Nov 1998, 2:23 PM

It's a bit late to do a lengthy critique, so I'll just note a few things of interest about TIMELESS and post my 47's for the episode.

--First and foremost, I liked this episode very much. Wang's performance was his best since THE CHUTE, and the special effects were just out of this world (no pun intended). Beltran once again underwhelmed me, but he didn't irritate me as much as usual, so I suppose that's an improvement.

--An intoxicated Seven was extremely amusing. "We are as one." just cracked. me. up.

--What the heck is the matter with Kathryn? She should have known the slipstream endeavor was doomed as soon as Chakotay set foot into the Delta Flyer. Frankly, I blame too much coffee.

--I liked the scenes switching back and forth between past and present. And it was a nice touch when the Holodoc awkwardly mimics Harry by clapping him on the shoulder right before Harry cannibalizes the holo-emitter. I also liked Tom taking an active part in identifying a problem, although I wondered why extensive testing of the slipstream drive hadn't revealled such a significant problem earlier.

--I have only one question. Does RDM have a portrait of himself hidden in an attic somewhere which is gradually aging and going bald? Because I'd almost swear he's looking younger with every episode. He even looked younger than "young" Ensign Kim in their early scenes together.

--And here are the 47's:
I didn't notice any written down, but I had difficulty seeing some of the console read-outs. I didn't hear any 47's, either.

I did calculate the following though:

Decks 9-14 collapsesd into Deck 10. 94=2x47
In the Delta Quadrant for 4 years, 2 months, 11 days. 11=4+7
Translink frequency was 108.44.236000 44+3=47
Borg time index was 9.43852 94=2x47

O. Deus -- 20 Nov 1998, 2:39 PM

Timeless - Positive and Negative Aspects of. Where Voyager's episodes this far have exceeded expectations over and over again, Timeless was an episode with plenty of potential that ultimately failed to deliver.

First nice touches -

1. Seven's drunk scene AKA The Borg version of a sloppy drunk was cute and amusing, it was also one of those nice little charachter touches that manage to turn a standard scene into something richer and more intimate.

2. Kim's second failure is unexpected and does a good job of delaying the conclusion as well as pointing up Kim's blindness in his focus not so much to save Voyager but to correct his original mistake that he fails to see the obvious solution.

3. The FX were gorgeous, the buried ship, the crash and the slipstream exit weren't just technological but artistic achievements. CGI works not when it's apparent but when it's invisible and this episode is a textbook example.

4. Garret Wang does his best and pulls off his best Voyager performance ever and probably the best of his life. Of course he works better as in The Chute when he's given something to do beyond comic buddy routines, for that matter so does Ethan Philiphs and the half of the cast that really isn't as talented as Picardo and Ryan are at comedy and light routine. (though even Picardo these days is phoning in most of his minor scenes)

5. The storyline like all of this is season is complex, well written and charachter centered. It combines human motivations with the physical problems of the universe to recreate the genuine kind of Star Trek we've been missing for so long, if the cast wasn't so abhorrent with writing like this Voyager could very well be equaling TOS and the best of TNG.

Problem No. 1 comes with the centering of the episode around two of Voyager's worst actors namely Beltran and Wang. The crux of the episode was the events leading up to the collapse and the future survivors and the episode rested on their shoulders. Unfortunately while Wang and Beltran turned in fairly good performances exceeding expectations, this episode needed the kind of great performances we'd gotten in Extreme Risk, Drone and Once Upon a Time.

Problem No. 2 - The EMH was given nearly nothing significant to do in the episode besides spew technobabble and again too much of the future portion of the episode rested with the technobabble they were actually doing (though the Borg temporal thingie is presumabely meant to setup the return of the Borg Queen) and too little with the charachter conflicts of the EMH and Chakotay. We wasted time on Chakotay's girlfriend, on pointless and completely uninspired battle manuevers which lightened the episode a little too much.

Problem No. 3 - Unlike most future episodes we got no idea of what the actual future was like which remains the charm of most future episodes, beyond an old starship and an old crewmember this episode might as well have been a flashback as a future shock.

Problem No. 4 - This one is a little bizarre but despite Kim's moaning he and Chakotay and the EMH have a lack of reaction to their dead crewmembers and friends that they've been obsessed with for so many years. One scene of Chakotay bending down to Janeway or Kim or the EMH reminiscing about 7 of 9 instead the charachters functioned as if the corpses were just more broken parts instead of the horrific sight of their dead friends. the EMH's and Kim's scene with 7's skull is particularly unemotional and unplesant.

Problem No. 5 - At a certain junction the script simply falls apart, this could have used at least one more passes to tighten the story. Burton's direction is very very very badly paced and incredibly medicore, I've complained about Frakes direction but if Burton gets to direct ST10 there will be big trouble. His direction remains one of the major problems of this episode.

Problem No 6. - If you do a battle can you do one that looks remotely interesting. We've seen the same routine hundreds of times by now, DS9 may have gone overboard but still would putting 2 minutes of thought into an original battle manuever or anything other than a pile of technobabble. And what was really the point of promising Burton and then keeping him on screen for 2 seconds, since they had him available they could made some use of him that would have provided a little realism and life to the future scenario.

Conclusion - Good ideas and good performances that weren't quite good enough to live up to the hype. Wang and Beltran tried but a little too much rested on their shoulders. Bad direction and a script that needed more work combined to make a potentially great episode, medicore.

O. Deus -- 23 Nov 1998, 10:02 PM

An Infinite Number of Harry Kim's continum, however since multiple races at multiple points in the continum are making changes, and since an infinite (no, no stop screaming they only exist one at a time - except in alternate dimensions)

An original Kim presumes the existance of a stable temporal amount of races will exist in an infinite universe who will discover time travel and make an infinite number of adjustments an infinite amount of Mathematically there are an infinite amount of Harry Kim's which will affect in some minute way the existance of Harry Kim there is therefore an infinite amount of Harry Kim's out there because due to the infinite fluctuations Harry Kim is constantly in flux. (not what anyone wanted to hear I admit but...) furthermore since the temporal tampering preceded the original existance of Harry Kim there would technichally be no original Harry Kim only a endless variation of Harry Kim.

Of course the really good news is that with an infinite amount of alternate dimensions there are also an infinite number of Harry Kims existing at the same time so that every possible Harry Kim exists somewhere.

D'Alaire -- 24 Nov 1998, 4:31 AM

ROOAAARR!!! Scary, indeed! Not exactly the best thing to read in the morning, but....(snort!)

It could be worse. It could be Wesley.

(smirk)

No, hold on, if Wesley ended up with the Traveller...Eeeeee. I am scared!

Jules -- 4 Dec 1998, 8:53 AM

Not timely, but certainly "Timeless".

Here I go, late as ever.

I have enormous difficulty coming up with an ordered list of favourite episodes over the entire run of the series. I just can't decide the merits of one story over another once you get into three figures. The best I can manage is to come up with a shortlist and - just about - nominate my favourites within any given season.

I have to say though that it didn't take much heart searching or agonising at all to promote "Timeless" to my favourite episode so far in season five.

The opening scene, with Chakotay and Harry beaming down to the ice planet was very cinematic in scale. (You can't help but wonder if LeVar Burton was using it as an audition to get the movie gig if Jonathan Frakes ever opts out. But I digress.) Even the little things, like a foot slipping on the ice, were nicely visualised. And that pull back to see Voyager in the ice was very impressive. In fact, the entire episode was a visual treat. Even familiar sets often looked a little different, just because of the camera angles at work. At some point I noticed that there was something a little different about the way the bridge was being filmed - and I don't just mean the icicle effect in the future scenes! After a little study, I identified what it was. The helm shots were, by and large, being shot in side view rather than from the front. Hmm. Perhaps we'd better gloss over what that reveals by the way of profile shots, and just say that I whole heartedly approve. :-) Any time LeVar Burton wants to come back and direct another episode is fine by me. Particularly as he seems to have dispensed with that annoying fish eye lens that everybody else seems to feel necessary when filming the Delta Flyer...

The special effects were particularly worthy of mention. I've already mentioned the overhead shot of Voyager in the ice, but (this one's for Eric) I thought that the Delta Flyer blew up very nicely. And the whole sequence of Voyager falling from the sky, followed by its Cresta Run full tilt into the camera was excellent. Although, that reminds me of one niggle I had: if the impact compressed decks nine to fourteen into one, why did that deck full of scrap metal get designated as deck ten by Harry? What happened to the space where deck nine used to be?

I could think of lots of niggles if I wanted to. Such as... how did the Delta Flyer manage to catch a ride in the slipstream as well, since it presumably didn't have a quantum slipstream drive of its own? If it was just coasting along in a bubble created by Voyager's warp drive, surely you'd expect it to have come to a sticky end when Voyager got bounced out of the slipstream, instead of heading on into the Alpha Quadrant under its own steam. And, come to think of it, why didn't it have phase variance problems of its own? It's no wonder that Harry couldn't come up with the proper calculations, even given fifteen years to do it in... he was working with a dodgy scientific premise to start with. I guess he was just so very eager to get back to the Alpha Quadrant that he was blinded to it, in much the same way as his tunnel vision fifteen years later was still leading him to try to save the crew and provide the happy ending by fixing the flight rather than stopping it, despite the fact that the latter solution was blindingly obvious to both us and the Doctor and had a much better chance of success in any case.

I found it equally interesting that the person who spotted the flaw was Tom Paris. (Contrary to popular opinion, I don't think he's being written as emotionally shallow this year as he has been for quite some time, although it'll take an episode where he has something more than a bit part to prove it one way or the other. Certainly however, he's being written as more intelligent in terms of his professional qualifications nowadays. Whoops, I'm digressing again.) Not only is Tom the person who, as the pilot, probably has the best "feel" and instinct for the way the ship reacts to the controls under the new drive, but he's also not as greatly enamoured of the idea of going home as many of his crewmates. Everything that's good about his life is close at hand, on Voyager, while a lot that's bad about it is back home in the Alpha Quadrant. Except that getting home will make people he cares deeply about happy, I doubt he cares too much how long it takes. I'm not trying to suggest that he'd sabotage efforts to get home - he's not the type - but I do think that his ambivalence about the whole thing makes him a lot less likely to trust in blind faith rather than proven engineering to get them there. Unlike Harry and Kathryn Janeway, who are both pretty much obsessed with the return, he's not going to wriggle and try to ignore the potential pitfalls along their path.

Garrett Wang often struggles to make the essential blandness of Harry Kim anything other than, well, bland. Here he was given the opportunity to play a more interesting version of the same character - older, embittered, obsessed - and he didn't waste it. Watching him play the older Harry I couldn't help but wish that some of Harry's weirder life experiences in the past might have stuck, so that Harry grew and changed as a result rather than always remaining exactly the same, because he's obviously a lot more comfortable playing the character that way. But I have been liking Harry a lot better this season anyway. He's still being written as the green Ensign, but in some undefinable way he comes off as stronger and not so much of a nonentity in spite of that. Mind you, after that dreadful declaration of intent to become an adult in "Demon" there wasn't really any way for the character to go but up... :-)

I will say however that, while I generally give him a thumbs up for this episode, that habit of older Harry's of slapping people on the arm or the back all the time was really beginning to bug me by the time the Doctor did it back to him just before the cannibalisation of his holoemitter.

Um, what else?

I found Chakotay and his BOTW rather more convincing than usual. They portrayed a casual closeness that spoke of a long term relationship that didn't need to constantly prove itself by constant demonstration. I much preferred the quiet holding of hands as the warp core blew to the usual gratuitous lip locks.

Was it just my imagination, or was Seven still sounding just a bit giddy when the senior staff got together in engineering to discuss the results of Tom and Harry's slipstream simulations? Generally I quite liked the drunken drone effect, though I think she overdid it a bit at the end, with the finger wagging bit.

Janeway's comment about normally restricting her cooking ambitions to the essentials... coffee. And I do think she was leading Chakotay on a bit there, whether anything was intended or not. She probably didn't know herself what she meant by inviting him to a candlelit dinner, except that the Alpha Quadrant was looming and with it the end of her self imposed nunlike state. She was in a (mostly) optimistic mood, and wanted to share.

Ten more years. A nice anniversary present, and about as much as I'd want to see them gain. I don't want to see Voyager get back to the Alpha Quadrant. Not for a long time yet. On the other hand, if they want to progress just a little bit further and explore the Beta Quadrant instead for a change, I'm all for it.

And finally... why didn't Janeway realise that the entire slipstream experiment was doomed to failure the moment she assigned Chakotay to the pilot's seat on the Flyer? Something was bound to go boom!

Okay, I'm done for now. Unless, in time honoured fashion, I think of something else as soon as I hit the submit button... Basically, I liked this episode very much. It has its flaws, true, but it manages to keep you very nicely engrossed as you watch it, as a result of which you don't actually notice them (or care about them) at the time. Good enough for me!