In The Flesh

Cmdr. 8472 -- 4 Nov 1998, 9:21 PM

Just watched "In the Flesh"...'twas coolies!

But first, a word from a Seven Days fan: TWO Frank Parkers?!!

And now back to your regularly scheduled post:
Great episode, but it felt like the resolution came a little early, although I think that was because I was expecting the old, "let's go pick on 8472" kind of episode, which this certainly wasn't.

My favorite lines:
The last time I met an 8472, it tried to dissolve me from the inside out. --Harry
I don't date girls from other galaxies.--Tom (my comment: Darnit! *L*)

Dislikes:
Well, aside from the slow resolution, there wasn't anything that I could think of.

I like how TPTB keep showing 7's distrust of Species 8472.
And nice surprise when the dead 8472 ensign didn't come back to life and terrorize the ship. It seemed like he was going to, at first.

Oh, and one more thing:
What is this, Delta Flyer overkill? I think it's gonna be in the next episode, too. Or are they just trying to keep Chakotay from trying to pilot anything? *L*

Terry -- 4 Nov 1998, 9:25 PM

ITF: intriguing, different but not terribly exciting. This show was certainly very different in locale and style from almost every other Voyager ep. It was great to have Voyager contact a species, find it not inimically hostile and vicious, and settle its differences peacefully by diplomacy. And even have each side gain a certain respect and liking for the other. And especially one that they were already prejudiced against.

Likes:

Ray Walston as Bootheby. I always liked human-Bootheby and Walston. 8472-Bootheby was even better since he was doing more than dishing out advice.
Nice to see 8472s as individuals with differing points-of-view
Loved seeing 8472 being written as 3-dimensional beings instead of vicious killers.
Seven's new blue outfit was pretty nice. Good color for her.
Ray Walston as Bootheby. Yeah, I already mentioned him but he makes this ep well worth watching.
Diplomacy instead of battle. It's been a while since the AOTW wasn't some brutal thugs.
Starfleet Headquarters - nice to see it.

Dislikes:

The two sides became too friendly after the initial talks ended. Exchange of technology and shore leave seemed a little too trusting for two groups which were ready to fight a short while before. And the Bootheby-8472 was going pretty far without consulting his superiors.
Female 8472 was played by a rather bland actress.
No excitement - I never got excited about a battle occurring and the epilogue was somewhat boring and long.
The Weak shall perish! and Your galaxy shall be purged! statements were never adequately explained. Perhaps just hateful statement by soldiers in battle but I would have liked more clarification.
Damn, has Seven got a big butt! (Said the pot to the kettle.) Must be the new uniform.
Janeway's now got B'Elanna's old big hair! Doesn't go well with her.
Starfleet Headquarters - too much time spent showing it to us.

Revisionist History:

Since 8472 are really pretty good guys, in hindsight, Janeway was wrong to help the Borg defeat them. They may have attacked other species in normal space without understanding that they weren't Borg allies. But 8472 seemed to target the Federation only because of Voyager's direct interference. It is a reasonable assumption that they either wouldn't have attacked others or could have been persuaded not to. OTOH, maybe the nanoprobe weapons were necessary to make them listen to reason.

BTW, good thing they didn't send Tom down to scout SFHQ. Bootheby might have thought he was Locarno and wondered how he got back into SF.

Sorry, Flite, I lost track of the spoken 47s (8472s). But the Flyer got damaged again. Heh, heh, guess whose pool picks are looking pretty good right now.

I thought Chakotay was just a little too quick to completely spill his guts under interrogation. What happened to the guy that took a beating from the Kazon in Maneuvers rather than talk? Okay, he might have decided that honesty was needed to convince 8472 that hostilities were unwarranted but still.

Speaking of Maneuver, what's up with Chakotay and his vampiric girlfriends? They are always sticking needles in his neck and extracting DNA. Do I hear the patter of little tattooed 8472 paws in the near future?

Okay, two more things. Admiral 8472: The Borg are irrelevant. LOL!

Okay, three. This script could have been used for a TNG ep.

D'Alaire -- 5 Nov 1998, 7:04 AM

From what I saw, I believe I agree with you...I definitely need to see it again, in complete form, but I think I'm mirroring you.

Still, was it just me, or was everyone, Janeway and the Doc especially, talking rather quickly?

Vickie T. -- 4 Nov 1998, 9:29 PM

In the Flesh: I like it! I love it! I want some more of it! Did you see it? Did ya? Did ya? Right after the 8472 woman backed Chakotay against the wall and kissed him, it happened! The spirit of James T. Kirk entered his body and boy, did he kiss her back!

Now, I'm perfectly willing to accept the suggestion (accusation?) that I would have loved this episode even if it stunk, just because Chakotay was the focus. Well, maybe so, but guess what - I loved it. I thought RB did an excellent job.

A few more random thoughts before I head off to bed:

Didn't you just love Ray Walston as Bootheby? He was wonderful. "Don't get sassy with me, girly," - LOL.

Is it possible that Tom Paris could be getting better looking every week? No, I'm not ready to jump ship and leave the Chakaholics, but I can't help but notice the lovely Tom.

Loved that scene at the end when Neelix said to the 8427/Vulcan that he was looking forward to hearing his insights on Vulcans. That got a super-duper deluxe double eyebrow lift out of Tuvok, didn't it?

I was so happy to discover that Chakotay was not duped by the ABOTW, but was just playing along for information. I do hate it when they make him look like an idiot.

Finally, shades of TOS - we had a story with a moral. A good, old fashioned, 1960's era Cold War moral, to boot. This could have been lifted right out of a TOS episode. Note, I do not intend this to be a criticism! I liked it.

Yeah, there are a few nits, but for me, none that are even worth the effort to mention. I am still a little uneasy with Janeway's character so far this season. As I mentioned last week, I can't put my finger on it, but I feel that the writers (or some PTB) aren't quite getting her right.

In the Flesh was a hit with me. So far this season, I've liked each episode better than the one before. If the trend continues, we're looking at a blockbuster season.

Leonie -- 4 Nov 1998, 9:46 PM

WELL!!!!!!! I absolutely, and positively loved it.

I think I'm going to have to eat my words when it comes to Brannon Bragga, he has redeemed himself with this one.

The thing is that it wasn't one of the episodes where it was the plot that really got me. It was all the little things. And that was the clincher, there wasn't one big thing, it was just the little things.

Kudos (Where did that term come from anyway?)

(1)(Leonie is getting down on her knees and sending prayers UPNwards) Thank you TPTB, that Chakotay was not duped. That he had known going in that this was species 8472. Thank you for making it impossible for me to make another top ten list about his bonehead choices in life.
Thank you
Thank you
Thank you

(2)Everyone seems to be getting in their two cents. The whole cast more or less have been involved in the episodes a lot more. What TPTB seem to be good in doing this season is focusing on one person but getting in two or three people in on the B-site interactions and I am grateful for that.

(2a)We saw the continuation of Seven and Janeway's conflicts, but now we see how much Seven has grown because even though she doesn't agree with Janeway, she follows orders and voices her concern appropriately. She's still got a long way to go in embracing humanity, but at least she seems more able to trust Chakotay.

(2b) I want to call this episode "In Search of the Inner YAMaMAM" I did my little STV "Ya done good PTB" jig for the scene with Harry, Paris and Chakotay in the Delta Flyer before Chakotay's "Date". Can you spell "Coffee Klatch"?. I knew you could. Is this what guys talk about when they're cruising around in their....
ahem..
Hot Rods!?!

Harry, Harry, Harry and you wonder why you're stuck home on Saturday nights with your clarinet? And Tom. Do you really have a formula for that set in stone? And don't lie to us, we know that you've dated out of your species before. (At least some of us on this board are hoping so. And the rest of us are glad that Chakotay wants to give it a whirl.)

So tell me CN guys is this the standard formula for a first date? or do you have different approaches depending on what you think the woman would respond to?

(2c) And what I really liked was the turnabout being done with Harry and Chakotay. Harry pacing worrying about Chakotay?.......

Puhleeze.....

Little boy SCRAM!!!!
He's a MAM he can take care of himself.
(Well as long as he's not in a shuttle, or he's not alone with me!!!)
(wink, wink....grin :-P---- )
I thought I was going to split my gut laughing at that one.

(3)And speaking of turnabout.
We got robbed of an irrelevant line because 8472 spoke it instead of Seven.
Neelix got to take a pot shot at Tuvok at the end (I'm going to have to watch him more closely, his character seems to be coming along nicely)
Harry actually didn't deliver ANY lame lines this time (YES!!! WHO!! HOO!!)
No Caffeine for Janeway either. The coffee shop was not replicated by 8472. So nothing for the pool.
So close and yet so far. What is she doing this season, Shooting up?

And before I forget, there was a 47 in Chakotay's SF ID #.

OOps, I still haven't gotten to Betsy yet....

To me that was one of the most daring things that TPTB did. There was no war, no fighting.

Janeway actually engaged in and the BAOTW responded to.......

Diplomacy

(I hear the collective GASPS being uttered in all the ST Fans homes all around the world; well at least in the US. And well, not in my apartment. That's where all the hooting and the hollering was going on)

And at this point I become a split personality.

The MAF in me says, I love it!!!, I Love it!!!, I LOVE IT!!!, bring more of these episodes on me

But there is a loud rowdy voice in me, my inner YAM (And yes I do mean YAM!!!) that says, HEY!!!, where's all the action this season!!?!. I mean sustained fights which last longer than 5 mins at the end of the show??

And that led me to the one nit-pick of the show. They effectively resolved 1 year of conflict in 15 mins. They managed to turn a species around and show them the beauty of the Federation ways in 5 mins, from completely hatred to acceptance.

YEAH right.

But this is Trek and YAATE (Yet another abrupt Trek Ending) are part of it. I can't have it both ways. I cannot want to see things end peacefully and then hoot and holler because the solution to conflict came on abruptly.

So I'll leave it and suspend my belief in the ending.

Suffice it to say, I enjoyed it's episode because of the subtleness of it and all the little things, that got a laugh out of me.

And my ST jig. I hadn't danced like that since "Displaced" It was just a delightful little romp

Joyce -- 4 Nov 1998, 10:27 PM

But note that the producers left themselves an out ... I thought this episode had a very TOS feel to it, what with resolving our differences to make peace, etc, etc. But notice the conversation at the end. Janeway has made peace with this *particular* group of 8472s, and the Boothby 8472 said that he would *try* to convince the others that the Federation is no threat.

My feeling is that this was done deliberately, so if the YAM audience yells loudly enough that they don't want no stinkin' peace agreements, they want war and explosions and plenty of it, the producers can accommodate that, by making the Boothby 8472 unsuccessful in his attempt to persuade the others, and voila, 8472 is a sinister enemy force again.
Have cake, eat too...

Eric -- 4 Nov 1998, 10:26 PM

All 8472! All Nude!!! In the Flesh!! What would Bob say? I think Bob would say this episode kicked some serious a$$!! I also think he would have liked Seven's new suit ;-)

I haven't read the other reviews yet, so this is untainted reaction, so her we go...

I loved the beginning, it kept you guessing right up to when the 8472 lost control. It got us right into the plot. I really liked the new way of looking at 8472. Even though they were disguised as humans we got a look into their culture and way of life. My only gripe was we didn't get to see a Bob running through Voyager!! All we saw was a dead Bob!!! I thought that was a real bummer. It looks like the 8472's are on the way to being good guys, I don't know if I like that are not, since I love seeing their Bio-ships in action so I hope there are a few mis-understandings along the way to peace ;-)

What kicked butt :

Seven's blue suit!!!!! Ohhhhh ya!!!!! Work it my Borg Baby!!

Foundation Imaging!! It hardly seems possible but they are even better this year then last! Love the Borg Green bubble on the top of the Delta Flyer!

The Habitat Station! Those 8472's could teach the Cardassians about station design.

Ensign Archer - A flirtatious 8472??!!?? Ohhhhkaaayyyy, it was weird but I liked it.

Tom/Chuck/Kim on the DF, they were BANTERING!!!! They were BANTERING on Voyager!! I thought for sure they were Aliens!! Shapshifters have taken over, but no!! It was just good writing. Love it, want more of it!

What was weird :

Chakotay wanting hot monkey love with a 8472!!! What if during the heat of passion she scratches his back?? Would her poison eat his insides?? Would he be so busy he wouldn't notice? Inquiring minds want to know!

What stank :

No rampaging Bob!!! Damn it, I wanted a rampaging Bob!!!!

That's all for now...

Leonie -- 4 Nov 1998, 11:19 PM

Oh come on Eric!!!!!

Eric said;

Chakotay wanting hot monkey love with a 8472!!! What if during the heat of passion she scratches his back?? Would her poison eat his insides?? Would he be so busy he wouldn't notice? Inquiring minds want to know!

One kiss does not mean that he wanted to take her to bed. He was just pleasantly surprised by how well she could kiss and wanted to get a taste of a little more. Besides she was altered so she was only different on the microcellular level not the macro one. She was a human female through and through. She looked like it and I'm sure she felt so too. Who knows she could have been one hot little Warlord under the sheets.

:-P

(This season has me seriously considering auditioning for a BAOTW part!!!)

Hey where's D'A?

D'Alaire -- 4 Nov 1998, 11:45 PM

D'A's right here! I've had satellite and power fluctuations tonight! Bah! The TV just came back for me, from the briefing room and forward -- I'll catch the repeat and give a better thought on it.

I will say this: THE BANTER!! ROAR!!!!-- "They were just trying to get to know you better..." BWAHAHAHA!!!!

I LOVE it when they're cruel to Harry! That's almost as good as the "tendril up your nose" quip by B'Elanna!

Oops! It's back on! Later!

Carol -- 5 Nov 1998, 2:42 AM

Uneven, but rather enjoyable on the whole. I'm a little "on the fence" with this episode. I enjoyed it very much, but there were some things that struck me as silly, off kilter or corny (mostly that last one).

Cheers

Very TOS'y, especially during the last half. War and Cold War themes, etc. For once, Janeway got to do the diplomatic thing and not have it backfire on her like TPTB seemed so fond of having it do for the past four seasons. I might be alone in this thought, but I've felt TPTB are writing Janeway better then they have before -- she's starting to click more into place for me (her good and bad points). She's not the same person she was when Voyager started -- and she shouldn't be. The DQ's changed her, even she sort-of admits it in that scene with Seven in her ready room. Kate Mulgrew as great (as usual). I disagree Terry, I liked Kate's big hair look. It flatters her features much better than they flat hair Dana Scully/Gillian Anderson thing they had going with her hair last year. Ugh! :-D Yes, Action Kate got to take a break and become Diplomatic Kate and have it work for once. Though I know some of the YAM's on usenet are going to be screaming to high heaven because their wasn't a big space battle or something.

Chakotay -- OK, I admit, the kiss between him and the ABOTW at the end ticked me a little (Once a J/C'er, always a J/C'er), but all in all -- Chakotay Wasn't Duped! He did the duping! He didn't come off like a idiot or a shallow jerk like I was afraid he would. I don't think this was Robert Beltran's best performance (more on that later), but he was very good in a lot of places.

Anyone besides me notice how Seven still seemed slightly afraid of Species 8472 during the scene in Sickbay? I loved how she admitted that she was wrong about Janeway's diplomatic tactics and not wanting to fight -- for a moment I thought that the nonaggression thing was going to backfire on Kate like Seven did (and something tells me had this episode happened during season 4, it would have, I digress).

The ending -- something tells me all ot over yet. As with "I, Borg" and "Decent I and II" this was just a episode to give 8472 some depth, instead of the "mustache twirling" villains they were during Scorpion and Prey. The last thing we needed was another "Kill the 8472" story. It was time to give them a "human" face as it were and In The Flesh did that reasonably well.

This episode was also a dialogue feast (good and bad). My favorites --

-- Fake-Admiral: "The Borg are irrelevant." -- OK, I vote we count this one in the pool! :-)
-- Fake-Boothby to Janeway: "Don't get sassy with me young lady."
-- Janeway to Seven: "You picked a bad time for a ethical debate." -- Where was that line last year? ;-)

There are more, but this is all I can think of for now.

Once again, the interaction between the crew was right on and very balanced. Fun little trivia things abounded -- the real Boothby would give Janeway freshly cut roses for her room, the date Chakotay resigned from Starfleet (the day after my birthday coincidentally), etc. And the forever J/C'er in me really liked the scene between the two of them in Astrometrics. I loved how he knew her well enough that he knew that she was testing him. But I know the scene was a double-edge sword; Janeway not only knowing about his date but recommending a place to go? It that didn't show they're nothing but close friends...

Species 8472 "morphing" in Sickbay. Big sucker, ain't he? :-)

The "Men of Voyager" talking about "dataing." I enjoyed this more than I probably should have. :-)

Janeway's look when "Boothby" said they didn't recreate her favorite coffee shop. :-)

Jeers

The "romance" between Chakotay and what's-her-name...well, OK, it really wasn't a romance (the only kiss that really meant something was the one at the end) but I found most of the interaction between them (most the dialogue anyway) rather corny. I was laughing sarcastically at a lot of it.

Boy, Nick Segan can write some great dialogue. He can also write some awful dialogue. Example:

-- Janeway to Chakotay about his "date": "Just be home before midnight." (Chakotay should have said "Yes Mom" not "Yes Ma'am." ::snort::).
-- Janeway: "I'd like to get back on the road." -- Me: "Been reading Jack Keroack lately Katie?"
-- Fake-Boothby: "Don't call us, we'll call you." -- Bet its collect. ::smirk::
-- Chakotay: "How 'bout a tour of your realm sometime?" -- Maybe it was Robert Beltran's delivery more than the line (his delivery was off a lot this week IMO -- just watch the briefing room scene when he announced his "date" and you'll see what I mean: blech!), but I could get that similar Mea West line out of my head after that one.

Where'd B'Elanna go? I think she was in, like one scene?

Did anyone besides me notice that they got the crew compliment wrong? (Its 146 not 127).

I don't know why, but I was hoping this episode would be a little more "spooky" than it was. The beginning was great, with Chakotay walking around Starfleet HQ taking pictures and not explaining until later how Voyager got there. But I guess I was hoping for a little more "edge" or something -- can't really explain it.

Anyway, all in all, not bad. IMO, Braga's three for four. I'd put it about on level with or slightly above Night, but below Extreme Risk.. Nice job Nick Segan for your first try. :-)

TimHolden -- 5 Nov 1998, 3:14 AM

Yes, Maaam!

Carol - I have noticed a lot of the crew using "Maaaam!" to address the Captain towards the end of season 4. Am I mistaken or did she hate to be addressed as such (I think it was in Caretaker where she chewed Harry or Tom out for calling her Maaam and Sir!

She preferred to be called Captain. Have the writers forgotten this?

Leonie -- 5 Nov 1998, 7:22 AM

I noticed that too Tim...... It started off with Paris. (But then again, he starts off most things) He always called her Ma'am in non-crunch time. And she used to glare at him and then she stopped after a while. I think it has become a term that shows the affection of the crew for their captain. And I think to the extent that she takes the joke in stride shows how far she has come.

I don't think that the writers have forgotten this because people don't call her sir. Or maybe TPTB just don't want to get their MAF and YAF audience upset.

btw,
Have you heard from the Macs yet? I figured that I'd wait until the end of today then fire off e-mail.

TimHolden -- 5 Nov 1998, 10:51 AM

Leonie
Its unusual for me to be so observant!

Still no word from the Macs! Starting to get a bit concerned.

Jules -- 5 Nov 1998, 7:39 AM

Leonie's right, it's all Tom's fault. He's been calling her "ma'am" in his usual let's - see - just - how - far - we - can - push - the - envelope cheeky way since way back in season one. Just about the only time he ever did call her "Captain" was - very pointedly - about thirty seconds after Harry goofed on his first day in the job and called her "ma'am" just after she'd told him it wasn't her first preference.

And I guess that he's got away with it for so long now that the rest of the crew figure it's acceptable behaviour as well. But unless I missed a few, they've only recently started to use the term in any kind of consistent way.

The "ma'am" stuff is, of course, perfectly in character for Tom, and it's understandable that the others would eventually follow suit. The one that does bug me is when they slip in the odd "sir". That happened a few times in season four, but I guess we can chalk it up to yet more of that season's inexplicably jarring characterisation in general.

One day though, I'd like to see Tom get slapped down for his cheek. But not, please, when Janeway's being experimented on by aliens drilling needles into her skull, or under the influence of a big fit of the blues. I'd like her to be at her wryly humorous best and do it just to get her own back once in a while. :-)

Terry -- 5 Nov 1998, 7:47 AM

Jules, I think that Kim called her sir last week. She gave him an order on the bridge and he replied, "Aye, sir."

I dislike that sloppiness a lot. And I wish that they had kept the "Yes, ma'am"'s confined to Paris. It was sort of his signature line. It has little impact now with everyone using it at random times.

Leonie -- 5 Nov 1998, 7:59 AM

Missed that one Terry...But I guess that if he did do that, (because he was normally the one to say Ma'am "in a crunch") we'll have to chalk that up to the writers and the editor's sloppiness. Isn't this sort of thing addressed in the "Bible" for script writers?

Jules -- 5 Nov 1998, 8:03 AM

Well, I haven't seen "last week" yet. Although I will be checking my doormat hopefully when I get home tonight. :-) (Not that it'll do me much good, as I won't be in this evening for more than about fifteen minutes, but even so...)

That's a shame. I'd hoped that perhaps we'd moved beyond the "sir" sloppiness.

And I kind of liked it when "ma'am" was Paris's personal territory too. Although... that one could still be redeemed, if Janeway were to put her foot down on the basis that - while she's willing to give the helmsman a bit of leeway, she objects to everybody taking the liberty. Duly chastised, everybody behaves themselves for - oh, a month or so - and then Tom starts backsliding again, and nobody else dares follow him for fear of getting slapped down again. He used to be Captain's pet, after all; and I'd like to see a little of that again, now that Seven has become a little more the whole crew's protégéé, rather than Janeway's alone.

Ginny -- 5 Nov 1998, 8:18 AM

**eyebrows waggling** Ooh, Jules--"captain's pet". I'd like to see a little more of that, too. And add my vote to the group wishing that "yes, ma'am" had remained primarily the province of Tom Paris. You could always tell when something serious was up, by whether he called her "Ma'am" or "Captain".

Leonie -- 5 Nov 1998, 7:44 AM

(RB acting) To be or not to be? ... well that's not really the question.

The question is has RB's acting improved in the little that we have seen of Season V?

For me it has. He's not in league with Mulgrew, RDM or RD, but he's coming along nicely. This episode was not his best in acting, but it was very good. (I still think that his best was "Waking Moments" followed closely by "Displaced").

In the Flesh:
The dialogue between him and the female 8472 was believable because it was kind of hoaky (sp?) and false. 8472 was trying to be human and Chak was a human trying to be 8472 trying to be human. It should sound false. The one moment of the "date" that I did not like was when she kissed him at first and he acted like she was infected with a virus ( I guess he was afraid that he would be eaten from the inside out.). Then when he realized that it was OK, he kissed her like a long lost lover. But then I'm sure that's how TPTB wrote him.

The scene with Janeway...
(Writer's note: I'm a J/Cer, truly I am. I've written over 150 pages of them in Fan fic. I've stopped because I've got to decide if I want to make them lovers or not. and I can't seem to decide!!!!! AAAAAAAAUUUUUUUUUUURRRRG, I'm turning into TPTB!!!!!)

I found that scene rather forced and it bothered me because there was chemistry there between them in Astrometrics. I was really glad that it was not supposed to be a jealousy scene, but farce in order for Janeway to find out if he was an 8472. I loved the way he called her Kathryn and called her out on what she was doing. They really are intimate friends and they know each other very well, even though they are apparently not sexually intimate with one another. Or at least that's the way TPTB are making them out to be for a while.

Extreme Risk:
I haven't given my thoughts about this episode yet and I decided to save my comments about it and P/T until Jules and Tim see it since I missed it the first round. But I will say one thing about RB in it.

(OK Chakoholics make sure your sitting down for this one.)

While I do agree that RB did good in the "tough love" intervention scene, from the beginning when he came to Torres' quarters until he forced her into the holodeck until the end. It was the last two lines that he delivered seemed a little false to me. I was furious with RB. He didn't deliver the lines correctly. So I actually agree with Ginny on this one. It was so crucial and he didn't do it justice. It wasn't that it was awful. It was just that it could have been so much more!!!! The rest of the episode he did OK in.

Night:
Delivery and acting was OK. The problem I had with this episode was the way that the writers wrote the part with him and Janeway. It was the plot and scrip that got me with this one, not the acting.

So thus far RB has had a much better acting season than the last two years. Here's one Chakoholic who hopes that he keeps it up!!!

(After all, I can only look at the dimples in his cheeks for so long!!!)

Ginny -- 5 Nov 1998, 8:25 AM

Alert the media! Call out the National Guard! The High Priestess of the Cult of Chakotay agrees with me that Beltran's delivery occasionally lacked something in EXTREME RISK!

Well, now, D'Alaire--this is something that should really make a person go "thud".

I *will* agree with you, Leonie, that RB is doing better acting this season than last season (although it took three viewing of ER to make me realize it), when I though he was consistently terrible.

Ginny -- 5 Nov 1998, 9:31 AM

The spirit is willing, but the FLESH is...weak And we all know what happens to the weak in the DQ. Oh, sorry--that was before the new and improved Species 8472.

Can you see where I'm going? Probably not, because I'm not sure myself. Let's start typing and see what happens.

GRIPES

--I want to know how Species 8472 got such comprehensive knowledge about Starfleet. They neither acquired the info from Voyager (that we ever saw) or got assimilated by the Borg (who would have had the info already). I was gratified that there was at least some token discussion of the issue, but I wasn't satisfied with the way it was essentially glossed over to move the plot along. (And you know me--I rarely complain about plot devices.)

And if whoever (Tom?) was right about Species 8472 having already infiltrated the Alpha Quadrant, does that mean that fluidic space is a short cut between quadrants? I mean, how else were those Species 8472/human agents supposed to get to Earth to do their reconnaissance? And if it is a short cut, then why the heck didn't Kathryn ask for safe passage through fluidic space to the AQ, rather than for some silly tactical data?

And that peace conference went just a little too well, too fast. But that's SOP in the Voyager universe, so I guess I ought to stop complaining about it.

--Speaking of broken records, Beltran's line delivery is flatter than a flounder, 5 times out of 8. (And he can't run, either.) That said, I thought the scene in the astrometrics lab between he and Mulgrew was very well done. A relevant, in-character exchange--that had nary a trace of sexual tension. The Voyage of the Celibate continues. J/C is apparently history, P/T is gasping for breath (and not in a good way), and K/7 makes my head hurt.

--Hands up, everyone who thought the dead Species 8472 was going to pull a Jason and come right up off the biobed in Sick Bay. I was almost a little disappointed when it didn't.

--I don't like Seven's new outfit. It makes her arms look scrawny and her chest look even larger. Granted, that may have been the intention.

GRATIFYING BITS

--Ray Walston as Boothby was fun--and he got a lot of great lines. And it was gratifying to see Tucker Smallwood as Admiral Bullock. He can still bark orders with the best of them. (Note to Eric and Jason: I would have loved to have heard him say, "The weak shall perish, my ass!)

--The guy talk between Tom, Harry, and Chakotay was pretty funny, although I thought Tom was a little mean to Harry earlier, when he was so worried about the Commander--and not without good reason, frankly, based on Harry's own horrific experiences with Species 8472.

--I liked the way Chakotay initially backed away from Archer's kiss (And did you notice how he referred to her later by her last name? Hmmmmm.), and then, of course, he cements his Voyager reputation for being easy by leaning into the second kiss.

--Things that made me laugh:
"A Cave Beyond Logic"
Pon Farr Night at the Vulcan Night Club
"I never date girls from another galaxy."
"Don't get sassy with me, young lady."
"Targ manure, every word of it."
Kathryn's expression when she found out Species 8472 hadn't recreated the Night Owl.

--47's
Heard
--a half-dozen Species 8472's
--Chakotay's serial/I.D. number
Seen
--I'm almost sure that a 47 scrolled by on the holo-imager view-finder in the first scene.
Eagle Eye Ginny's 47's
--Time factor noted on-screen was 11.04228. 11=4+7, 28=4x7
--Last time Chakotay was at Starfleet HQ was March 3, 2368.
3+23+68=94 (2x47)

Carol -- 5 Nov 1998, 5:36 PM

I don't think 8472 has been to Earth... Of course this is my opinion based on one thing...

They were all wearing the wrong uniforms.

I noticed it the preview last week but didn't say anything. But if Species 8472 had been to Earth and were planning to infiltrate Starfleet HQ -- why wear the old Voyager style uniforms? They didn't know Voyager had found out about what they were up to until later, so it wasn't for their benefit.

And I don't think it was a production fault. When the show did Message In A Bottle and Hope and Fear, everyone form the AQ had on the new uniforms. The Admiral on the Vid screen in Hope and Fear had one on in fact.

A lot of stuff in this episode was left very ambiguous. When Chakotay asked Artcher what her real name was, she just gave him a look of some kind. Maybe her real name is over 1000 characters long -- and their species name is over 15000 words long. Maybe they found out about Starfleet form another DQ race that Voyager's been in contact with, who knows?

Nick Segan was very coy to leave a whole bunch of blanks of information here and there, as well as not making the truce a complete one. This episode didn't have a lot of closure to it -- some may like that, some may just find it annoying. :-)

Terry -- 5 Nov 1998, 7:14 PM

Good point, Carol, about the old uniforms. I noticed that myself at the time and then forgot about it. I agree that 8472 has not directly scouted the AQ. I assumed that they got their info from captured Borg data-cubes (or whatever they are called). It must have been near the end of the war or after since they recognized Commander Chakotay and Voyager.

Fliteman -- 5 Nov 1998, 11:59 AM

Ginny noted some problems, the same ones I saw, but I had an easier time glossing over them, I guess. Compared to last weeks, I very much enjoyed "In The Flesh."

I was gratified (and Monica said she was surprised) to see Janeway ready to fire a few torpedoes, but NOT doing it. I thought she was too quick in handing over the nano-technology to 8472, and (IMHO), what she got in exchange wasn't worth it.

Ray Walston's reprised Boothby seemed very well done; I liked how he was in charge - in a comic fashion. (anybody ever see him in Night Court...?) Comic, easy going, but didn't take any crap either. We'll probably never see him again, which is a shame.

Some minor points...

Spock, in 'Bread & Circuses' said to McCoy: "...the 6 million who died in your first World War, the 11 million who died in your second, the 37 million who died in your third..." Whereas Seven said, "...600 million dead in your third World War...." I'd be more apt to trust Seven's remark, but somehow, thought they should agree...

Chakotay, when asked, "Do you need to regenerate? (or whatever...)" and he said, "I'm fine." The line was funny, but he showed no reaction when he saw her inject her leg, and it turned 8472-ish... He could've at LEAST furrowed his brow... (I would've...)

The Delta Flyer approached that station without being detected... Tsk. If they're imitating Star Fleet down to the cellular level, you'd think they'd be able to see a shuttle sneaking up on them. And, wouldn't you also think the DF should be equipped with cloaking device...?

The Pool Count (Preliminary):
Shuttles damaged, destroyed: 1,0
Coffee Sips : 0
Irrelevance by Seven : 0 (although, 8472 said one... n/a)
Species Number count : 1 (8472, of course.)
P/T Kisses : 0 (Maybe we should do a C/AOTW count)
(drumroll)
47's SAID : 13 (12 8472's, 1 was Chak's ser no.)
47's SHOWN : 1 (Monica said she saw one...)

"In The Flesh" Chakotay's security number: 47 Alpha 612

Will confirm these numbers on the re-run this weekend. Comments welcome, corrections will be considered.

Carol -- 5 Nov 1998, 1:03 PM

Fleshing out RB's acting. Leonie -- I love RB. Really I do. And I think he's had some great acting moments over the past five years. State of Flux, Resolutions, Worst Case Scenario, Scorpion I and II and just recently Extreme Risk.

But I'm sorry -- through a lot of In The Flesh he just seemed flat, Flat, Flat. His delivery in a lot of scenes just grated on my nerves a lot. Most notably during the aforementioned Briefing Room scene when he announced his "date."

I like the Astrometric Scene -- it wasn't swimming with passion and sexual subtext like we've gotten more times than I can count between KM and RB, but I liked it for its closeness between them -- you could tell that this was two people who know each other probably better than they do themselves. I still think the best and most romantic relationships are the ones that start out as close friendships and that's what that scene showed me.

Anyway, I've seen RB give better performances than the one he gave here IMO. More than a few times he seemed -- off somehow.

Shawnster -- 5 Nov 1998, 10:41 PM

Well, I'm of two minds on this episode.

Taken by itself, it's a fun, enjoyable episode.

Taken with the previous meeting of Species 8472, I'm less than pleased.

Like I said. I liked the show. It was fun to watch and very entertaining. Could you imagine stumbling upon a Starfleet hailing frequency, then finding Starfleet Command?

I agree about the scene in the shuttle, Tom, Harry and Chakotay talkin' guy talk about dating, etc... Very realistic.

I think this is the most attractive Janeway's been in 5 years.

I like Seven's new outfit. And that's all I got to say about that.

Let's hope they keep these Borg upgraded weapons.

Our heroes were very calm and collected in their study of the alien habitat. I would have tried just like Chakotay to blend in, talk like them, etc... My only difference would have been when he was sharing his misgivings about the invasion (during the moonlight balcony scene). Instead of saying "we might be wrong," I would have said; "I don't think this is enough. We've only replicated Starfleet Command, not the whole Earth nor any other planet..."

Which brings me to my nits, I guess. They didn't replicate anything but a small portion of Earth, specifically the southwestern United States (maybe just San Francisco and the surrounding area). They didn't replicate the Federation council, they didn't replicate any other planetary environment. I guess their invasion was going to be limited to San Francisco.

Where did they get their intelligence? I could accept the Borg having such information, they could just combine and analyze the memories of every human they've assimilated (part of the Enterprise E's crew, Riley's ship, the colonists on a couple of worlds, possibly a bunch of Starfleet officers at Wolf 379) but nowhere did we see species 8472 assimilate the Borg. Did they get all this with just telepathic contact with Voyager's crew? I can't quite get that. only 127 people. Human memory is faulty when it comes to little details.

This is so unlike species 8472. They were just the go in shooting type. The habitat was so un- species 8472. They had these awesome, powerful organic ships. This looked just like a normal space station.

How did they find out about Earth, the Federation, etc... Wouldn't it have been better and more conceivable just to hunt down and capture/destroy Voyager?

No, this wasn't a good Species 8472 episode. Still, it wasn't all that bad.

Diane -- 6 Nov 1998, 6:54 AM

Another installment of Voyager Lite, and we needed this type of an episode after three extremely dark and heavy shows. I really enjoyed this tale up to the ending, which many of you have already pointed out was too rushed. May I also add that it was also a "Happily Ever After" ending, maybe TPTB are getting us ready for next weeks episode entitled "Once Upon A Time." The ending, to me, felt forced as opposed to the remainder of the show. I also felt the show had a TNG feel to it, not to mention the old TOS war and peace dilemma.

My only nit with the show supports Ginny's. Why didn't Janeway negotiate for info on fluidic space travel, this could have been their quick ticket home. Who knows, now that we have made friends with 8472, and if the Voyager rumor mill of a return to the Alpha Q is true, maybe 8472 will get Voyager home and help the Federation win its war against the Dominion. Wouldn't that be something!

I liked how TPTB brought in some of Chakotay's story from Pathways. Thought Paris' line "I don't date girls from other galaxies" was a stitch. I said to myself, Since When! Liked Paris' and Kim's little discussions in the Flyer, Janeway's and Chakotay's exchange in the Lab, and Janeway's and Seven's exchange in the hallway, where Seven admits she was wrong. What a change from last year!

It was great to see Ray Walston again as Boothby, he was great! BTW, did the fact the Chakotay didn't know Boothby, only by reputation, mean that Boothby only make himself know to potential Captains? Found this quite interesting. Wonder if Paris knew Boothby. I say this because, he looks so natural in that "Chair" when he captains the Flyer.

All-in-all, a pretty enjoyable episode, and like I said, my only nit was the forced rushed ending.