Night

Terry: -- 14 Oct 1998, 7:01 PM.

Hey, Eric. Looks like you're gonna miss Night. WSBK has NHL hockey scheduled for 9:00. And they're not showing Seven Days, either.

Mr. Mac. -- 14 Oct 1998, 7:04 PM

Terry, don't freak the man out.

Terry -- 14 Oct 1998, 7:07 PM

I'm not kidding, Mac. The guide may be wrong but it says hockey. In fact, I can see WSBK right now and it has Seinfeld rerun on instead of Seven Days. Get ready for an Eric explosion.

Mr. Mac. -- 14 Oct 1998, 7:10 PM

Hockey. Jeri. Hockey. Jeri. Eric's gonna go postal.

Eric -- 14 Oct 1998, 10:40 PM

AAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!! WSBK MUST DIE!!!! DEATH TO THE MISERABLE SOB'S!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I HAVE TO WAIT UNTIL SUNDAY TO SEE NIGHT!!!!!!!!!!

"Kill em all!" - Starship Troopers!!

Leonie -- 14 Oct 1998, 10:54 PM

Mr Paris, 20 mgs Anaestazine.....
Oh Eric, I'm soooooo sorry.
Ya know the woman who played the babe in the Holodec program did look a little like Kes.
Here use my hanky...
There, there there....
You'll feel better on Sunday.

Terry -- 15 Oct 1998, 12:21 AM

Thar she blows! Only one hour late, Mac.

Right, Leonie. Just like Kes with much bigger ... eyes.

Andy -- 15 Oct 1998, 6:36 AM

That's too bad, Eric. I'm going to have to get some other opinions, but from where I stand, Seven looked even more curvy than usual last night. I was going to ask you, but since you didn't get to see the episode.....

D'Alaire -- 14 Oct 1998, 9:16 PM.

As always, I'm writing off the top of my reaction. I'll make more sense once I've digested more. Okay, then. First off:

He played, he fought, He took them goggles off!!! Mrrrrowl! Of course, Tommy really shouldn't have, since the Night-dude blasted his lovely Blue eyes. (Just LOOK at those bridge scenes! They're BLUE!) Dang, he looked nice. (Thump, thump, Egad!..thud) And he was Paris. Nice to see him again.

Okay, yes, back to the program. I enjoyed Captain Proton at the start. Cheap, idiotic, and neato-keen, MST3K stuff of lore. I didn't expect to like it much, but it was amusing. And I laughed at Seven's reaction to it--predictable, but good. It'll be interesting (Paris--"I'll tell you about it later") to see what the rest of the crew does in it. Of course (duh), the reaction I'd like to see is...

B'Elanna--boy, they're setting up shop. But it's great to see the snarky, talk-back B'Elanna that won my heart on day one. RD looks fantastic, and that promo shot definitely was overexposed. I even liked the fight with Tom. The boredom and frustration served the cabin fever plot and etceteras well, and no soap. Better--she back in her rightful throne as the queen of engineering! Yea!! (What? Did you expect I wouldn't gush? ; P ) The end was nice too, approaching the conn and looking out. Sort of reminded me of that Caretaker scene in slo-mo.

Yep. Caretaker revisited. I thought that came across a little too simply. I would've liked to have seen Kate alone, maybe a personal log of some sort developing the blue funk she's in, instead of coming right out with "she's holed up"/"my fault." Still, her problem was understandable, her feelings believable, considering. Too bad there's only ~43 minutes per ep.

But I won't nit about her 1st appearance outside her quarters. Betsy's come out to play! The way she hopscotched with the aliens was decent Kate, too. I also liked that the crew missed and needed her and they acknowledged that.

How Chakotay handles Janeway is good, as well. Just what I expected, the good XO and friend (as they've planned). It's great to see Chakotay do something again, be a commander. That's the Chakotay I like. I'd like to see him get even more tense, though. I almost wanted him to kick Kate's butt out to see the crew.

The volcano story by Tuvok -- sounds like Kate but, again, the story itself came out abruptly, like a name drop. Was that the same story from "Pathways" with a twist? I just remember her wanting to beam down and investigate, and everyone getting buffeted by volcanic wind. Tuvok's story was a little different. I would've like to see him deal with her a little. Anyway...

Harry was not as nerve wracking as before (he properly deserved to get smacked for the "vacation" line), was his usual efficient, dorky self with maybe a year on (gag on the K/7 shot at the end, though). I liked the music. I like that he hasn't given up his clarinet, but has the joke book.

Okay, now the plot. Thumbs up on the Void and the crew's different cabin fever symptoms, and the creatures inside it. The night dudes were neat. Too bad they had to stay behind. I'd have liked to know them better.

The Malon (sp?) were stereotypical, though. I would've much preferred them to be a pretty race doing ugly stuff. The dumper looked like Baron Harkonnen. And the message was too "there" for my taste. Toxic dumping is too common a word, and they didn't even try to disguise it. Not very original. Cool exploding ships, though.

(tbc--ah well, it's been a while, why not?)

The big sacrifice scene on the bridge -- I liked the idea, but something about it bothered me. Maybe I needed to see Kate realizing she'd been set up for a "mutiny" of sorts. Her change of mind was a little smooth. Even the fact that she'd decided to take the shuttle and stay behind was abrupt. There wasn't much tension there for me--and trust me, we've had very few spoilers. I didn't even know about this, and the tension was low.

But the final solution was good, the vortex was neat. I enjoyed how the dark dudes helped out, and I liked the end, even if I would've preferred to see a little more closure--nothing new in that from me.

I do like how they set up our characters for the new season. They felt mostly like the characters I know and love. Mostly (there was some dullness there--Doc didn't seem as crispy as usual). But I bought it.

This was a good ensemble/season intro ep, and lots of stuff happened, so I know I'm missing a lot of details I knew I wanted to write, especially on Kate's part. But when I rewatch it, or if someone else mentions it, it'll come back to me. (Right, like I need to write more [grin].)

It was a relief and a joy to see Night...if not a little surreal after so much time to see something I hadn't, and I will have to rewatch to be more objective. In short for now, though -- I have nits, but I enjoyed it.

Terry -- 14 Oct 1998, 9:19 PM

I loved Night. These "professional" reviewers are all wet. Night was an very interesting episode and a fine inaugural episode for the Braga era. It wasn't purely an character study, a sci-fi story, an action story, or a social morality play. But it was a very excellent blend of all of these. While not the best Voyager ep of all time, it was a very important episode in that it brought the consequences of such Voyager history as Caretaker and the professional relationships between the senior officers.

What I Liked:

I enjoyed the Captain Proton/Doctor Chaotica holoprogram. It worked well as a bit of comic relief but somehow accentuated rather than detracted from the somber but dark mood of the episode. I liked the eye candy of the good-looking holo-babe (nice cleavage :) The The Revenge of Satan's Robot, indeed.

The set looked great. I'm glad that they didn't overuse it but look forward to seeing more of the holoprogram in the future.

I loved the idea of empty space with nothing to do but routine work, thinking, and playing.

I thought that the AOTW wouldn't clash with the isolation theme but somehow I don't think that it did. I found the commercial motivations of the polluter alien very believable. Just read the newspaper any day and you'll see the same blindness and callousness. "The pollution control will cost jobs!"

Neelix's quarters looked a little different from the usual bland quarters. The porthole looking out onto blackness was a nice touch.

I loved the scenes of all of the characters handling the claustrophobia and boredom. Paris playing games, Torres irritable, P/T arguing, Harry playing the clarinet, Tuvok even bothered, Neelix scared, Janeway depressed. All were realistic and not too overwrought.

The dialogue seemed much sharper and realistic than usual. Often they try too hard to be funny and it comes out either phony or flat. Here, the jokes weren't forced and had a harsher sarcastic edge to them.

The exception was the tagline of Janeway's: "It's time to take out the garbage." But because it was also funny, this tagline worked better than most. And, of course, "Captain Proton to the rescue." Cute but not too cute.

Excellent acting by all. I was very surprised to see how good even Harry was. He delivered his lines without the awkwardness usually noticeable.

B'Elanna and Tom looked like their 3rd season selves. Thinner and energetic. McNeill often seemed distracted last season.

What I (Slightly) Disliked:

Chakotay and Tuvok's little talk. It was interesting to see them working together but the talk wasn't a little awkward and slightly unreal. They anticipated Janeway's attempt at martyrdom perhaps too easily. And their decision to work together seemed a little mutinous. It was like Chakotay was preparing himself to overrule Janeway and wanted Tuvok's advance support before they knew what she was going to do. But this isn't a serious objection.

I did like the crew's quiet but firm refusal to let Janeway be a martyr. And Janeway's quiet acceptance of the inevitable.

And note that Kate now ignores the PD when it seems wrong to enforce it. She and the rest of the crew didn't think twice about giving the polluter aliens the technology to clean up the anti-matter waste.

Two or three years ago, she would have refused to give the technology and fought to keep it. Even at the cost of everyone's death. Last year, she would have agonized over the decision. Now, the technology will save lives and improve the quality of life of these aliens. So, they give it away without hesitation.

I like that. I even wish they had found a way to get the tech to the other alien culture so that the pollution wouldn't re-occur.

Leonie -- 14 Oct 1998, 9:20 PM

(sob)...(choke)....I can't believe it...(waaahhh).(saw Night)... It's Wednesday Night, right after Voyager and I am able to post what I thought about the episode................

waaahhhhhh....(crying for joy, I just love you guys so much (wiping tears from my eyes)

Ahem....Now to what I thought.

Light stuff

Let's start another category based on the TTL, Inane things that Harry will say in year five. He got off to a flying start tonight with that vacation comment. If this is going to continue throughout season five, I'm going to reach for the pink stuff that coats!!!!

Captain Proton!? yeech, who dreamt that up? Tommy looked terrible in leather. (Eric it looks that your correct, brown leather on STV was made for Kes)

And Vickie, did I tell you how good Chak looked in his civvies. (Excuse me while I get a tissue for the little drool spot on the side of my lips.) We are going to have to mention that to the Housewives Club in VC. It was very distracting while I was trying to focus on Neelix's plight.

On to the serious stuff.

It still amazes me that the writers could just pull things right out of their @$$es. We have seen Kate stand down Borg and Species 8472. We have seen her make decisions that would make a lesser dictators tremble and now we get told that she has been feeling guilty for the past four years.

Now I agree that it has been long over due. And just incase you want to know what was wrong with her, she was in what is called a situational clinical depression state. With all of the things that she has done and the consequences that it entailed for the crew, she should have stopped to feel guilty from time to time over the four years. My point is that if you are going to have this as the focus of the show, there should have been some leading up to it. How come you can get it right for Tom and B'Elanna but not for everyone else. We need to see where things are coming from, not have them appear out of the blue.

Speaking of things out of the blue. I thought that Chak/Tuvok was resolved and Chak/Tom unresolved. When did this get reversed? And I think that it is ironic that Kate thinks that Chak is the closest to her, while Chak comes to Tuvok because he thinks that Tuvok is closer to Kate. Maybe I should have put them in a VC triangle. Oh wait a minute, I think that I did.

Ah yes things out of the blue. What I absolutely loved about the episode is that finally we get to see Janeway with her hair down. It is true that it came out of the blue, but as I said it was long over due. Thank goodness Chakotay found his Backbone. I think he may have gotten it from Dogbert, it's called a Port-of-Spine(TM) he used it to give Dilbert, Wally and Allice a backbone so he could form a union among salaried employees. But I digress.

When I saw them building up for him to stand up to her, I was fearful that it would have been another "Scorpion" and he would have looked stupid. But this time he came through. (BTW did I tell you how good he looked in civvies, crawling through the ship by flashlight, casting a soft glow on his tattoo, his face, his neck, his lips his......hands!!!!

(well what did you think I was going to say) Sigh, again it distracted me from Lee-Marie's future Man Neelix (That was a joke, don't even think of writing it Eric, or else your six shooter will get even smaller than Kes's and Timmy's for that matter)

Chakotay's Backbone. (Sheesh people) And the other thing that I absolutely LOVED the fact that EVERYONE disobeyed Kathryn, Not only Chakotay. She always said that that crew was a family and this was proven to her. And quite frankly, if it took an out and out mutiny to show her that, I was all for it.

And it looks like our pool got off to a surprising start. We got one irrelevant quote, but T and B argued all the way. (Well she's baaack ( The B!t@h is back!!!! Elton John)) so no smoochie poo. No caffeine for Kate who really seemed like she was hitting the bottle pretty hard during this whole episode.

And speaking about coping a "tude. It seems like Neelix's character might be one to be growing this season. I loved the way that he stood up to Tom and B when they were fighting.

It must have been Chak in the Flashlight that distracted me.

Actually, I thought that the B-plot was actually OK. It was different and for once, someone came to help Voyager out of Gratitude. Friendly aliens. What a radical concepts. And I agreed with the decisions that Kate and Chak made together of how to handle the bad aliens in not.

Wait a minute. There's some continuity there. From Omega Directive, those two have really been co-operating instead of one ordering blinding and the other following blindly.

Well I think that I'm finished.....

Mr. Mac. -- 14 Oct 1998, 9:38 PM

To quote a wise Nebulite, "Screw that USA Today reviewer." I thought it was a decent episode. Predictable, but decent.

Special Likes:
1. Harry holding his ears when the blonde was screaming in the Captain Proton scene.
2. Seven's reaction to the robot. That's our Seven!
3. Most of the rest of the episode.

Special Dislikes:
1. Chakotay comes out of Sickbay just after Janeway has a very responsible and Captain-like scene with TAOTW, and talks to Tuvok about how Janeway is losing it. I thought the scene was in the wrong place.

2. Don't be shocked, P/T fans but I thought the P/T game scene was exactly like the P/T food scene we saw last season. They could have put them both in bed and it would have been a better scene with Torres ordering out.

3. Well, we picked on Paris last season. I love you Captain, but you need to lose those couple of pounds that hits all women about that age (including my wife - BAM! CRASH! SLAM!). Don't get me wrong, I like a woman I can grab and hold but the Voyager pickers will be all over it like a Coney Island hotdog contest.

D'Alaire -- 14 Oct 1998, 10:35 PM

Hmm, scratch that. I'd said I'd prefer a pretty race doing ugly stuff, but thinking on that, even that would be cliche. Agh! I don't know. I guess it worked its purpose--and I LOVED how B'Elanna snapped at Malon boy! (of course) Maybe if he didn't remind me so much of the Harkonnen.

And while I'm here -- the off duty uniforms! I'd forgotten that. I liked that look, too. Very neat.

Maureen -- 14 Oct 1998, 9:49 PM

Dang! Helmboy looked soooo good. Ummm, kinda hard to concentrate on anything else.

Okay, I loved that they opened with Captain Proton. I can't take it seriously, and hope to see more of it. Harry was playing along nicely. Had fun imagining the struggle between Tom and the Doc for control of the holodeck.

Chakotay ran the initial briefing well. And I buy Janeway's withdrawal. Keeping busy lets one avoid dealing with emotional issues, but a little time off with no distraction can bring them screaming to the surface. Maybe not everyone reacts that way, but it's plausible to me.

I would have liked to think that Tom and B'Elanna could've found SOMETHING better to do with their time, but I always enjoy seeing them argue. And B'Elanna's shots were reminiscent of her comments in "Displaced."

Neelix's anxieties were played pretty well. I'm glad to see someone other that Tom develop phobias on this ship. And I thought Neelix portrayed the disability of a phobia well. He knows they're unreasonable, but that doesn't change anything, and it's shameful to be at its mercy. I'll bet he enjoyed getting to scream and yell for a change.

Interesting to see Harry lounge on the bridge with his clarinet. And I'm glad Tuvok didn't feel the need to take him down a peg.

Thank the stars Tom's such a quick healer.

Ooooohhh, I always enjoy seeing Action Kate with her phaser compression rifle.

Seven teasing Tom. There's something there. (or should be)

Unquestionably BLUE.

I'm rambling. Time to stop and re-evaluate. Can't wait to find out what everybody else thinks.

Terry -- 14 Oct 1998, 9:56 PM

Good point about Tom and Seven, Maureen. After that one scene in Day of Honor, where Tom offered his help to Seven, we almost never saw these two interact. Okay, that one scene in The Killing Game (You gotta problem with dat, sistuh?)

Seeing these two play off each other could be interesting. They are such different characters that there should be some humor in scenes with those two. Like Tom with Tuvok. Only different and maybe even funnier. I'm getting sick of the Tom/Doc sniping. I could see both Seven and Tom being able to cut the other down to size.

And ooh, the B'Elanna jealousy element. Good fun.

Maureen -- 14 Oct 1998, 10:14 PM

Thanks, Terry. See, I think Tom's the one person on the ship who's not trying to change Seven. Everybody else tries to de-Borgify her, but he seems pretty accepting of who she is. Also, I like the idea of the Hound at the Helm being impervious to Borg Barbie, but everyone else assuming that he's hitting on her. Could also set up some antagonism with Harry.

I don't find the Doc/Seven scenes at all funny. The humor of the socially inept program running social skills tutorials is too obvious for my taste. I wouldn't mind more scenes with the Doc and Tom if someone would take the time to write some dialogue for Tom.

Leonie -- 14 Oct 1998, 10:02 PM

That was something else that struck me... The different types of pairings and the way they were switched throughout the show. Everyone got their say and a piece of the screen time. Everyone had a function and served it. (Yes Harry's was to deliver that crappy line and stand by while Doc and Paris fought it out)

Tuvok was the one that got me though.

Tuvok/Seven in astrometrics
Tuvok/Kim on the bridge
Tuvok/Chak in the ready room.

It was just interesting.

No, No I mean in the character development sense.

And it seems that we are getting our wish for a serious Neelix.

Terry -- 14 Oct 1998, 10:10 PM

But I liked the dialogue with Harry. Yes, the line was lame. But Tom called Harry on its lameness and Harry basically acknowledged it. Unlike Demon, where totally lame jokes produced unbelievable chuckles and equally lame jokes in response. Harry is supposed to be not really witty. As long that that characterization is acknowledged, I like it.

Joyce -- 14 Oct 1998, 10:42 PM

Captain Proton. I've been trying to avoid spoilers this season, but I couldn't help hearing about the Captain Proton holodeck set, and couldn't help rolling my eyes about it. But heck -- that's a role that RDM can *play*. The style just suits him. I admit, I found the Captain Proton parts of the episode diverting. But still...

What's the *point*? It seems pretty clear that Paramount only has one standing set for holodeck stuff, and this set seems even less versatile and multi-purpose than the DaVinci workshop. It won't make a decent crew hangout, like either Sandrines or the resort did, so I can't see getting much character revelation out of it.

I feel like the Captain Proton set was created for the same reason the DaVinci set was created -- because the producers said to one another 'it will just be so KEWL!', without pausing to ask how the set will work in an actual *story*.

Of course, we can expect the Holodeck Runs Amok plot to be trotted out sometime this season, turning that absurd robot into a Real Threat, because that's really the *only* way to manage to work the set into an actual story. But sheesh, people, we've *done* this before...

Terry -- 14 Oct 1998, 10:02 PM

Actually, I thought this spat was more realistic than the others. Silly, yes, but a direct consequence of cabin fever. And we saw what silly things were ticked them off. "You always use that move." "And it always works." Stupid and pointless but aren't most real arguments. Not the vague cliches like "I need my space."

I liked that no one stormed off like in the previous arguments. I had the feeling that they were just irritable and starting a fight out of boredom. Not soap-opera because we saw the cause and knew that it wouldn't have serious consequences.

D'Alaire -- 14 Oct 1998, 10:21 PM

Agreed, Terry. Cabin fever for certain, as I'd said before, too. And I liked that Paris needled her into sticking around for another round of venting.

Yea that it wasn't soapy, too. I'm glad they're getting away from that. Who said it reminded them of Displaced? That was an interesting observation. I'll think about that when I see this ep again.

(grin) I still would've liked their snipping to be in quarters, though, as Mr. Mac suggested. Ah well, somebody had to be around for Neelix.

Leonie -- 14 Oct 1998, 10:51 PM

Actually I didn't think That this was a PD situation WRT to the technology.

I thought that PD only applied when technology sharing was concerned if the recipient was not as "technologically advanced as the Federation" In this case both aliens were, as they were able to almost defeat Voyager.

I think that PD came in when it was time to decide on which side would Voyager help. Just for the fact that they are not supposed to interfere with internal conflicts, no matter if one side is clearly in the wrong or right.

In a way that's what brought them back to the caretaker's decision (I think that some one also pointed this out, but I agree so I'll say it again) Strictly the PD should have prevented them from destroying the Vortex, they should have just escaped and left the two species to duke it out.

Ya know, it's almost like this time instead of stranding them, like the array in the Caretaker, destroying this means of passage brought them closer to home. The same decision and motivating factors underlying it and two very different results

Things that make you go hmmm indeed.

Hopefully cap'n Kate will take some comfort in that, And of course a fresh cup of joe.

Jason -- 14 Oct 1998, 10:16 PM

I wasn't paying too much mind to the reviewers going in (after all, TV Guide called "Hope and Fear" series saving, while I thought it was easily one of Voyager's worst episodes this year) but the fact that they were complaining that they didn't care about the characters simply indicated to me that they hadn't been watching the show... they don't know our characters. It may be sad, but hey, I'm proud of it-- the minute intricacies of the characters were very interesting, from Neelix, to Harry, to Tuvok to Chakotay.

There was not as much Janeway as I'd anticipated-- I really did want to see her holed up in her cabin more-- just to see what she did. Her hair, for those who care, looked pretty good. I like it loose and longer. However, she looked, ah, somewhat Jeri Ryan-enhanced in her short sleeved tunic. May just be the lighting. The tear away uniforms looked pretty good, too. I especially liked how Janeway wore hers as a jacket in the crunch.

There was a certain tone to this show. There were a few I perceived, actually-- so I'm not sure how to classify it. It seemed like Voyager played like a mid-life series in this episode. It didn't quite have the spunk and spontaneity of earlier season. However, that may well have been exactly the point. Everything Brannon Braga and Joe Menosky did relating to Janeway and Voyager's mission seemed intent on addressing the fact that it's been four years. How does the crew deal with that? Especially when what the crew used to deal with it is taken away?

To that end, Brannon Braga achieved exactly what he set out to do: to show space travel more realistically. Like "One" the sense of isolation in this episode was effective and to an extent haunting. The scene where Neelix got up in the middle of the night-- I thought that his porthole was actually his mirror-- so I thought he was hallucinating. (Given that we'd previously seen the view screen expand in transition to another scene-- it could very well have been possible.)

The complete darkness was very effective as well. I loved the shot of Kate turning her head as the ship's lights went out.

Is it just me, or was there a... nautical feeling to this episode? It felt like an adventure in the deep sea. When Janeway said that (something) would be something she could put in her log book I felt that this may have been the feeling Braga and Menosky would have been looking for. Perhaps there are some legends I'm not familiar with that deal with explorers hopelessly adrift on the sea. That's a parallel I certainly drew.

The other impression that I got was that this felt a little X-Files-y but I can't really substantiate that. Maybe it's because it was trying to be really "spooky".

The Malon themselves (in their look that is) were sufficiently cheesy. In that way I thought that it was great that the themes of the episode (Caretaker-Night Aliens, Captain Proton-Malon) ran throughout the episode.

Parts of the episode were certainly slow, but with all the character use and development-- (my god, I don't think I've ever seen an episode as ensemble driven as this one-- save "Caretaker"!) these are all steps in the right direction.

Tracy -- 14 Oct 1998, 10:40 PM

A long Night that wasn't quite. Well, I didn't get my hopes up, and didn't expect a great show...but I got one anyway!

I was impressed. And the episode, I think, was one of Voyager's better. Why? you ask... Well, set down for a spell and let Miss Racine give you the short version...

Likes:

The Captain Proton holoprogram was actually pretty fun, not as corny as I expected. Almost choked from the laughter that erupted at the object of the busty chick's frantic screams...Doc! I would have done the same thing...;o)

Seven's "I am Borg" line before very efficiently disconnecting the robot. Very Seven.

Tuvok's discussion with Seven about his meditation and the fact that his room was "less than stellar" for that. Lookeee, Tuvy made a funny!

The overall feeling that things were starting to overheat. The emphasis on the starless realm outside Voyager's hulls.

Neelix's fear of nothingness.

Seeing Chakotay in his civvies. And RDM, my he does look great! The thirty pound loss is evident.

The night aliens. Looked slightly like the aliens from the TNG ep where LaForge mutates into an alien that isn't visible in regular light. But, this guy, he looked ILL.

Janeway finally addressing her long held back feelings of guilt for having forced her crew to endure the journey across the DQ in the first place, although I don't think it was resolved very well. Almost too cleanly and too happily. More down below.

Is it me, or did Tuvok seem much more laid back in this episode?

That Roxann Dawson, does she look great for a new mom. Sure wish I had looked that good less than a year after having had my baby (I suppose I could have kept the lid on the tub of Duncan Hines Rainbow Chip frosting...)

Action Kate and Betsy! A winning combination, if I ever saw one! YES! Berman, I think Betsy should be a permanent part of Janeway's wardrobe.

Dislikes:

When the power went out on Voyager, should the holodeck's color (and Paris' and Seven's) returned to normal? IIRC, they were still grey.

Ya know, about Robert Beltran calling in his lines...sheesh. He could have just propped one of those cutouts of himself, and placed a tape player behind it, and I wouldn't have known the difference. Sorry, Vickie , Leonie, and Michelle. He's got no emotion, ya know what I mean?

Did Kate Mulgrew gain a few pounds, or was it just me? This isn't a dislike, persay, but an observation I made. I think she looked her best last year, just after having quit smoking, when she gained a few pounds which gave her some curves. But, I'd swear she had a boob job, or is pregnant. The first scene in her quarters, with the shadows, and her slouching, made her look much heavier than usual. Her chest looked, well, much larger than last season, I'll say that.

Okay, repeat it with me, everyone. "Let's not invite a strange alien we've never met before, who obviously has no visible scruples, to tour our very sensitive engineering section..."

Ach! Has NO ONE on that ship learned a thing in the past few years? I was half expecting him to pull out one of his radiation blasters and shoot the warp core, then beam off the ship, leaving her to breach her !@#$%^ core. Argh...

Alrighty, then. On to my biggest peeve with this episode:

Finally, after four years in the Delta Quadrant, we get to see Janeway collapse under the weight of her long held guilt. She agonizes within the dreary confines of her room, only emerging when it's absolutely necessary, a virtual hermit on her own ship. She leaves command to her underlings, not interested in anything else that seems to be going on around her (nothing to write down in her logs, she laments.) Janeway is suffering a deep depression, one born of the consequences of her decision to sacrifice the next 70 or so years of her crews lives for the lives of an entire people, who would undoubtedly suffer more greatly under the oppression of the Kazon. She should take comfort in this, that they had a chance to live, because of her, but she cannot shake the responsibility she feels towards her crew, her family, for their welfare. It has been a long, long four years, but the time she has remained holed up on her quarters has seemed an eternity. (The scene is set)

In comes a threat: a villain; a people who need Voyager's help to survive as a race (bizarre feelings of deja-vous, anyone?); a sacrifice to be made that seems the only way for the dying race to win, and for the crew of Voyager to peel two years off their journey. She decides, as captain, that it is HER responsibility to take care of matters. he informs the crew of her plan, and they...why, they all but mutiny! Seven goes so far as to say "I will not comply" (Darnit she didn't say "Compliance is irrelevant." Rats, that was a Poll opportunity if I ever saw one...er...back to the rant at hand). And, Janeway, well, she .... gets over it? Er, hello???!!!!

Sigh. I wanted to see her rant, her rave, her spittle fly into Chakotay's face, she's so angered. The gall of her crew, to not only question her decision, her command, but to refuse to obey her? Furious, she turns to Tuvok, her counsel, her anchor, her moral center. "Why, Tuvok? This is my decision, my logical decision, to make. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the one, correct? Why can't you see that? Why do you refuse me this command, this.. this... redemption?"

Ah-Haaaah.

That's it. She comes to a realization that she's being selfish. Or whatever. And Tuvok's next line? Oh, something to the effect of "On the contrary, Captain. The needs of an entire civilization outweigh the needs of the many. But we, as the 'many', feel that we cannot go on without the 'one'..." or something like that. Ya know what I'm gettin' at, doncha?

I was slightly disappointed in the "Happy Family" resolution to the virtual mutiny affected by the crew. They were, of course, in the right, but Janeway wouldn't, no, shouldn't have just accepted this. She had agonized over her "failing" of the crew four years before. And now her opportunity had arisen to make it up to them. I woulda been pissed! (Okay, I know, it's a stupid woman thing, or something like that. Don't you deny me my self-pity!)

Anyhow, that's all about that.

Carol -- 15 Oct 1998, 1:24 AM

Quirky, Realistic and Enjoyable,I Adored Night. It would be a little of a overstatement to say that I've been waiting for this episode for four years, as it wasn't completely perfect, but for me it was a giant step in the direction I've been hoping for.

Cheers

Kate, Kate, Kate. God, I adore Kate Mulgrew and her acting of Janeway in this episode reinforced why. Janeway's depression and second guessing herself was something I've been waiting for. I've been saying for four years that some of her reactions over the past had to do with her feeling guilty about whatever was happening at the time or whatever relating in small part to the decision she made in Caretaker. I don't think her guilty feelings came from out of the blue at all. Something as big as she did back then isn't something she had time to fell guilty about -- not only because it needed time to fester and grow with the experiences they've been though for the past four years, but because she was distracted by everything that's happened; and I truly believe that she didn't think Voyager would be out there as long as they have.

Tuvok's story about something she did because of guilt during her first command made perfect sense -- and personally I think it all relates back to what happened in MOSAIC to her fiance and her father when she couldn't save their lives and had to watch the two most important people in her life die. I think her guilt complex started there and I was hoping Braga and Menosky would have her mention the incident to Chakotay at the end or something, but I guess it wouldn't be right for this episode as Janeway herself hasn't come to terms with her mayrtrdom nature yet. That's for another episode and one day, I hope someone calls her on it. It doesn't matter in the slightest if her decision in Caretaker was the right one or not; its about living with the repercussions of such a decision. She could have easily taken Voyager four years ago, but felt guilty about what she did to the Ocampa for the rest of her life.

Chakotay. oh my GOD Braga and CO gave him a personality! :-) Just kidding, but I liked seeing old Chuck calling shots, leading, calling Kate out and, generally acting like a (gasp!) First Officer! And a friend. If this is the direction Braga wants to take J/C instead of the romantic way, hell, I like it and it will most definitely do. :-)

The episode also had a quirky feel to it. As Terry mentioned the humor wasn't forced and seemed like realistic people talking. When Chakotay wouldn't buy Janeway's first excuse about not joining him I a game of Velocity, I loved her "Would you believe I'm catching up on some reading?"

By the time the first act ended, I couldn't believe it was only the first act. The balance between everyone was just perfect. Tom and B'Elanna's fight was good -- and B'Elanna seems to be back in Top Form! She had her spirit back which seemed to be gone during the last season.

Other little cheers --

-- Harry playing clarinet on the bridge and Tuvok listening.
-- Seven and Tom: Don't hate me P/T'ers, but they did seem rather close during that whole Captain Proton thing. And Seven's comment after she deactivated the Robot was priceless.
-- The "Mutiny" on the Bridge. Yeah, it was a little corny, but in a good way.
-- Was it just me, or was Seven just mostly comic relief in this episode? When she said "I will not comply" when Janeway was trying to martyr herself, I almost though Kate would say "Why am I not surprised?" :-)
--The visual effect, as always, were smashing. Most notably, when the power went out on the ship, and the Doc walking in in color on the Black and White holodeck (fitting that they ran a commercial for that new movie Plesantville right after the teaser. That scene made me think of that move. :-)
-- Kate carrying Betsy and kickin' butt. Can't go wrong with any scene of her doing that. :-)

Jeers

No it wasn't perfect. Most notably for me was the whole plot with the aliens. For me they were just a plot device that I put up with to see how Kate reacted to the situation. The whole p[parallel on the environment was nothing special.

That Captain Proton...thing. Corny, but not in a good way. Lord, I know I'm going to get annoyed by this thing a lot this year.

The ending, ending. I don't know, I was kind of hoping for something a little less abrupt: I really wanted Janeway and Chakotay to go play Velocity on the Holodeck and talk about her behavior and what she was feeling, but I'll hold out the hope that their saving it up for later. :-P

Anyway, the mainstream reviewers had no clue what they were talking about. I haven't felt this good about a episode of Voyager for a long time. Everyone got a chance to shine and though I wanted a little more Janeway (for dramatic purposes, it was good how we didn't even see her until the middle of act one), I think this is a good start off.

Brannon, Joe -- I could (almost) kiss you. Keep it up. :-)

Jim C -- 15 Oct 1998, 1:36 AM

God this is turning into a long NIGHT. Man it's good to be doing this again!

Overall a good beginning to the season. I was happy to see that they started off with a true ensemble show.

IMO the A story wasn't very effective. It was a fairly unoriginal variation on the big bad guy not doing the right thing because of personal greed, blah, blah, blah. I think it would have been a better show if they just encountered the invisible-aliens, had some conflict, and came to realize they could help each other. How about if the invisibles were poisoning themselves, Voyager gave them the clean-up technology and in return they showed them the "vortex." (By the way, why are they calling a worm hole a vortex now?)

LIKES

The acknowledgement of hard feelings between Chuckles and Tuvok. It's good to see the continuity and also that the next two in command might actually have some overt respect for each other. "I could use some Vulcan clarity on this."

The fact that Tuvok had figured out what was wrong with Janeway a long time ago. It's nice to see that Tuvok knows her better than the rest of the crew but, in Vulcan fashion, and probably out of respect to his friend, didn't offer up the explanation to her odd behavior.

A plausible reason for the holodeck not going off line during the power drain. When the scene cut to the HD after the drain, I almost yelled at the screen until Seven explained that "all independent subsystems are still operational." On the other hand I wonder about the logic of having the holodeck as an independent subsystem. One would think the holodeck and its power would be one of the first things to go if you needed extra power. The life support system I can see but not the holodeck.

I liked the firework like weapon of the Malons. I wonder if TPTB were trying some symbolism that Cap'n Kate was gaining some "independence" from her guilt. I wonder if sometimes I think too much.

The mutiny scene was a good illustration that the crew is really more family now, less Starfleet. The captain got out voted for chrissakes. It was a little abrupt how quickly she went from dripping with malice ("you could all be hanged for this") to hey, that's cool, group hug.

OOOH, I love it when Paris and Torres fight, it means I don't have to see him in any kind of revolting physical contact with her. Sorry Macs, D'A, et al, but Torres in this episode illustrated why I don't like her. She was her typical snippy self in the staff meeting. I know TPTB were trying to show that the entire crew was a bit frazzled, but she was over the top..."spare us the protocol Chakotay" and the tone of her voice when she reported engine efficiency....I better stop before I say something that will get me banned from the Archive.

I loved the look Janeway gave to Seven when our favorite Borg asked if she (Janeway) intended to destroy the Malon ship.

One last minor nit. Why did the inviso-aliens have eyes at all? Why wouldn't they be like the animals that live in caves or the deep sea? Evolution realized that eyes are unnecessary in such cases and got rid of them. I think it's reasonable to assume natural selection should be universal.

The first fifteen minutes of this episode was a one liner factory. Some of the best:
"AHHHHHHH" - Blonde Holo-babe.
"Perhaps you can teach a course at Starfleet: 'Satan's Robot: An Historical Overview'." - Doc
"Finally some excitement...radiation!" - Paris
"Anxiety!!?? Anxiety's what I feel when I burn a pot roast!" - Neelix
"Nilophobia...The fear of nothingness. In layman's terms the fear of...nothingness." - Doc
"Needless to say the view from my quarters has been less than stellar." - Tuvok.
"The robot has been neutralized. May I leave now?" - Seven
"Change is irrelevant." - Seven (only good because of the contest)

Ginny -- 15 Oct 1998, 7:54 AM

Tom got badly hurt.
B'Elanna got really ticked.
Kathryn got a big ol' compression phaser rifle and came running to the rescue.

Sigh. It was just like Season Three.

NIGHT was not perfect, but I enjoyed it immensely, and, more importantly, I continued to enjoy it on the second viewing. Here are the particulars.

Gripes

Just one, but somewhat substantial.

--I was a little uncomfortable with Chakotay and Tuvok's discussion about Kathryn. Mutiny is such an ugly word, but, apparently, not as ugly as I thought, because Kathryn sure got over it quickly after her entire bridge crew disobeyed her direct orders. Gosh, what a trooper. "We don't need no stinkin' command structure!"

Gratifying Bits

--This was a pretty good Chakotay episode. Beltran appeared alert throughout and had a couple of really nice acting moments. I liked his testy little exchange with B'Elanna in the staff meeting and that wonderful discussion with Kathryn in her quarters. I thought the lighting was good in that scene too, with Chakotay in the light and Kathryn in the shadow. Kathryn also looked almost unhealthy, which was, I think, intentional. BTW did anyone notice that the lights behind Chakotay made a big seven? I tried to make a four out of the furniture, but just couldn't do it.

--Way to go, Neelix! Finally, the little gnome got some air time and some dialogue that's consistent with his character and his function on the ship. His morale suggestions were good, his irritation at Tom and B'Elanna mirrored my own, and his phobia gave Chakotay an opportunity to be nurturing.

Hands up, everyone who got the "Bergamot tea, hot" in-joke. For those who didn't, bergamot oil is the substance that gives Earl Grey tea it's distinctive flavor.

--Harry and Tuvok had a couple of good scenes. How long has it been since that happened?

--Boy, don't Tom and Seven look good together? Was anyone else reminded of Alan Ladd and Veronica Lake in the black and white scenes?

And about Constance Goodheart--what is this, a joke? I must say that I found the "Seven as clueless playmate" stuff pretty funny. "I am Borg." "Give it a chance, Seven. The galaxy's at stake."

--Nice effects:

Chakotay's face reflected in the surface of the computer panel, the lights going out all over the ship, Voyager emerging from the void into a Hubble Space Telescope Kodak moment.

--Good quotes:

Tom: "We are studying sociology."
Chakotay: "I could use a little Vulcan clarity."
Holodoc: "What's a hologram to do?"

--Last, but not least, the 47's:

13.47--cellular degeneration noted on the Holodoc's console
47 seconds until they intercepted the vortex
And the obscure 47 of the episode--53 days into the void (100-47=53)

Chakotay also makes the comment to Seven about ships being becalmed for days at sea. So I think you're absolutely right--nautical was the impression the writers were trying to give.

Mrs. Mac -- 15 Oct 1998, 8:25 AM

Night fix. I feel like I just had a deep, rich cup of coffee after being denied of the nectar for weeks. It sure tasted good. It was almost funny that Mac and I were eating popcorn during the black and white Captain Proton simulation. It was like watching one of those old black and white serials when we were little. Some of you can't relate to them, but we can.

Night was very satisfying on all fronts. I only have a couple of small nits. For a Captain who has been through so much in 4 years, I find it difficult that she hasn't yet come to terms with destroying the Caretaker early on, especially since we haven't seen any rumblings from the crew for what she did. I find the guilt a little displaced at this point in the show. However, it probably was a good refresher course for any new Voyager watchers (huh?) in that they have reestablished the reason why Voyager is old in the middle of nowhere and their urgency to return home. In the same line, the crew's devotion to the captain in the end was nice. I loved when Paris stood up to her. I even liked it when Seven stood up to her like she was saying, "Don't look at me, I'm not going to be any help to you."

My second nit was mentioned here a couple of other times. I didn't like the Chuckie/Tuvok scene when Chuckie asked Tuvok to back him up regarding the captain's behaviour (for you, Jules). This, to me, was more mutinous than the final scene. Plotting against the captain is not a good thing. Evidently Tuvok understood her emotions at the time and Tuvok could have probably done what Chakotay failed to do at the time, that is, get her out of her funk.

I enjoyed the Paris/Torres argument but I would have liked to have seen it played out differently. Perhaps arguing until they got so close in each other's faces that they suddenly kissed. Sigh. One for The Pool.

Jim said: Sorry Macs, D'A, et al, but Torres in this episode illustrated why I don't like her. She was her typical snippy self in the staff meeting. I know TPTB were trying to show that the entire crew was a bit frazzled, but she was over the top..."spare us the protocol Chakotay" and the tone of her voice when she reported engine efficiency...

That's precisely the beauty of this character, Jim! She is half Klingon and she has an attitude but she's also capable of a full range of emotions from A to Z. I'm glad she's not molded into the typical Starfleet personality. God forbid that everyone on that ship was exactly the same emotionally.

Night was a good wake-up call for, I predict, a decent season to come! Mrs. Mac

Joy -- 15 Oct 1998, 9:11 AM

A miracle happened. I got to see Voyager on Wednesday night at 9:00. Not Sunday. Wednesday. Eric (and others), I'm not rubbing it in, it's just that I've never seen Voyager on its regular night. Ever. I am no longer cable-challenged!

To celebrate, Brannon presented me with a solid premiere. Not the best, not the worst, but a good, steady, ensemble piece. If Night foreshadows the rest of Season 5, I'll be one satisfied fan come May. Thanks, Mr. Braga.

Frankly, I don't know what kind of problem the USA Today reviewer has. I think it's pretty clear that he doesn't watch the show regularly. Night is an episode that really needed to happen. The first half hour was primarily a peek at the crew's daily life, admittedly under unusual circumstances, but something a lot of fans have been clamoring for. Ho hum? No way. Well done!

Good stuff:

1. The Captain Proton holoprogram. It captures the feel of all those campy TV programs and Saturday serial shorts. Not that I'm old enough to remember those. :-) Captain Proton is a vast improvement over Da Vinci's studio, and it is nice to have a little reminder that someone other than the Captain is allowed to have a fantasy life. I hope they don't overuse it, though. Tommy looked wonderful in leather, although I wish they had left his hair longer.

2. Chakotay in charge. Our First Officer really is a competent commander.

3. The sparkly, dark aliens. (Did these guys have a name?) It was great to see an alien with the guts to say "We were ignorant. Forgive us." It's been a long time since Voyager ran in to any of those in the Delta Quad. Esthetically, I loved the look of these guys.

Lots of little things to like here: The dialogue between Harry and Tom, perfectly natural banter between friends, without one getting the best of the other; Neelix ordering bergamot tea (isn't that Earl Grey, tea aficionados? ) and planning to replicate curtains; the sniping, griping and carping among the officers, very much in keeping with the situation; Action Kate coming out of seclusion wielding Betsy! Yay!

Annoying, but tolerable:

I thought Robert Picardo's Holodoc was a trifle flat.

Could have done without:

Can't really think of anything right now. This episode really worked for me.

Well, maybe there is one little thing, and it is more a 'what if' than a 'should have been'. Kes was the living, breathing, daily reminder of the Ocampa and the reason this merry band of voyagers started out on this little trek. I think the Captain's soul-searching would have been much more effective if Kes was still around. Oh, well.

My highlight of the episode:

Brace yourselves. I'm going to say something nice about Seven. Gasp! My favorite scene was Seven and Tom with the Captain Proton program robot. The face off between a 1950's robot and a former Borg tickled me. I was absolutely rolling on the floor howling. If they continue to use Seven this wisely, I'm going to be very surprised. And pleased! I may even become a fan. A very pleasant Night, indeed!

Ruth -- 15 Oct 1998, 9:45 AM

Well, I don't really have a lot to add to what has already been said. I also really enjoyed the episode, and thought, as the rest of you did as well, that the USA reviewer must have never seen the show before, or at least was only tangentially aware of the show's history and back stories.

I loved the Captain Proton set. Someone in an earlier review likened to the failed DaVinci set, and said that it would be difficult to incorporate. At first I agreed, but on second thought I think that the Captain Proton hologram has something going for it that the DaVinci set (or the Victorian holonovel) did not -- it is kitschy fun. It fits in perfectly with Tom Paris' "little boy" persona, and for once, it was even a good utilization of Harry. He was perfect as kind of the bland serial male ingenue (can there be a male ingenue?) leads that are totally forgettable next to Our Hero, the Magnificent Captain Proton. (Although, I'd also like to have Sandrine's back)

One of the ways that I think Voyager suffers in comparison to TOS is that in VOY the fun factor often seems forced. It felt more natural here, from the babe with the big "eyes" screaming when she saw the Doc, to Harry's reaction to her constant screaming, to the fun scene with Seven and Tom (did B'Elanna know about this?)

I thought the power loss and the lead's respective reactions to it were cool. I was frankly terrified when Chakotay heard the whimpering that it was going to end up to be Kathryn, and there was going to be some kind of cheap out of character scene for her turning to Chakotay for comfort. It made perfect sense for it to be Neelix, and, when the chips were down, and the crew really, really needed her, for Kathryn to break out the compression phaser rifle and have at it.

I also liked the fact, that Kathryn and Chakotay hadn't taken the time to put on their full uniforms for the crisis. It looked natural, and they looked good together working as a team down in Engineering. Well, he looked good in that t-shirt period. I thought at Vulkon that he looked a little slimmer, and in the t-shirt, well, hubba hubba. The uniform really does nothing for him, however, so I hope this was a sign of a few more "casual days" on Voyager.

My main question revolves around the cabin fever theme. Except for the occasional away mission to a planet, these people have basically been on this ship for four years. For me, the absence of blue sky and sunshine would be much more depressing, than going from stars to no stars if that was what you were used to. They've only had each other to see and interact with during those four years. Was the mere absence of stars enough to have them get cabin fever? I suppose it was also the lack of things to do, a reason to go to work, as it were, but I can't believe this kind of thing hadn't happened before this.

But, since it gave them a chance to discuss some of the problems, like Kathryn's decision, and to show how they spend their off time, more power to them.

Fliteman -- 15 Oct 1998, 10:08 AM

Yea, yea, yea... Night was good. Now, THE POOL... All in all, I thought this was a better Voyager Ep than most; but, I have to tell Review Boy... Torres in Engineering, getting mad at the garbage man - THAT was the Torres I want to see. A P.O.'ed Klingon female. Let's see more of that.

And, the Special effects of Voyager without external lighting... a very nice touch. The power failure was done very well, I thought. Seven NOT playing in the Holodeck was fun; "I am Borg... May I leave now?" Classic.

The AOTW I had a problem with.... Not the garbage man, but the ones living in the dark. Why..? How'd they get there? They weren't FROM there - you need SOMETHIN' to start with, and there was nothing. Aside from that, and a few other nits that others had mentioned... It was nice to watch without already knowing the ending. (Reruns get old...)

Okay. Enough with the pleasantries...

My wife & I listened & watched closely to any numbers mentioned. I noticed 0 47's in either category. Ginny, you'll have to figure out if you can derive any.

Paris & Torres Kissing.. Uh uh. Not in this one, folks. Maybe we shoulda had a bonus category on the number of hits sustained by either...

No coffee in this one. You'd think with a title of "Night", there'd be a "Morning" where vast volumes were consumed...

My ears perked up when Janeway suggested taking a shuttle out, and they perked up even MORE when she mentioned her mission... but, alas, it was not to be...

The only category with a hit was Seven's "Chance is irrelevant."

At the current rate, the standings will be Zeros all across the board, except for 26 "irrelevants." I'll update this rate as the season continues.

Pegn -- 15 Oct 1998, 11:16 AM

Lots of Chuckie Boo Boo Bear in this episode and acting like a man. Chuckie in a tee shirt, oh yes!!!!!!

I also noticed that Seven, when talking to Chuckie, gets into his personal space. I hadn't noticed her doing that with others, does she? Or is she imitating her mentor, Katie-did?

Captain Proton was delightfully cheesy like the old Buck Rogers flicks (and no, you youngsters, I didn't see them in first run). Only suggestion is about the lovely and slimmer Tommy Paree`. What, no tights, no cape? Well, how about some tight pants and an open neck shirt? Jeez, throw me a bone here, Costume Department.

The Tommy/B'Elanna argument seemed a bit forced, but I liked Neelix when he was reaming them. However Neelix being a Sissy Mary and cowering in the corner....I don't know. I wasn't crazy about that (I'm just crazy).

Liked the "Katie, stop feeling sorry for yourself and snap out of it" mutiny on the Bridge. And another thing, her trust of the Night alien. If Katie trusts someone, I'd have second thoughts, her past judgements not being so good.

That's it. I liked it. Good thing someone else is sharp eyed about 47's, cause I never noticed them. I did catch the irrelevant comment from Seven though.

Vickie T. -- 15 Oct 1998, 10:51 AM

Well, I liked it! Night sure met my expectations. Chakotay, lots of Chakotay. Chakotay close-ups. Chakotay in a t-shirt. Chakotay-in-charge. Chakotay comforting Neelix. Chakotay worrying about his Captain. Did I mention Chakotay in a T-shirt? Leonie, did you, by chance, notice just how gorgeous Chakotay was last night in Night? Mmmmm.

Wait, wait, yes, I did notice a few things in addition to the handsome First Officer and if I exert all of my brain cells, I can manage to talk about something besides Chakotay. He does have nice hands, doesn't he, Leonie? I noticed them, too.

OK, OK.

Truthfully, I think most everything I have to say has already been mentioned by others. I really enjoyed this episode. I've been whining for ages about never seeing the crew do anything to suggest they have a personal life and in Night we finally got a lot of little glimpses into folks' off-duty life.

I started a "Likes" list, but it was immediately apparent that I would rapidly exceed the 4000 character limit on posts. So, I'll just say that I pretty much liked everything and leave it at that.

Other comments (I started to call these "dislikes," but that is really too strong a label):

I'm reserving judgement on B'Elanna's behavior. If D'Alaire is correct in believing that TPTB are setting the stage for Extreme Risk, then I'd say they're right on target. If not, then I think TPTB need to tone down the b*tchy broad stuff - strong minded, straight-speaking and forceful is one thing, b*tchy is something else, entirely.

The crew should have been in the void for much longer before they started going stir crazy. They were only there for two months! I just kept thinking "What a bunch of whiny babies." I mean, think about the crews of the US Navy's nuclear missile submarines. Those babies used to go out to sea (still do, post-Cold war???) and stay under water for months, didn't they? I think the stir-crazy atmosphere would have been much more realistic if they had been in the void for, oh, 6 or 8 months before encountering any action.

If Night is a good indication of how Season 5 is going to go, then all I can say is "Hello, season 5, pleased to meet you," and "Thank God season 4 is history!"

Joy -- 15 Oct 1998, 11:58 AM

I've got to disagree on Tom/B'Elanna/Neelix, Ginny and Peg. The reason the Tom/B'Elanna sparring worked for me was because it was old and tired. We all knew that this was ground that had been covered over and over, ad nausea. I thought it pointed up the situation nicely.

Neelix's lines, OTOH, were almost word-for-word the Captain's migraine-induced diatribe from Scientific Method. They were appropriate for Kathryn, but seem incongruous coming from Neelix. I don't have a problem with Neelix (the morale officer) taking Tom and B'Elanna to task for their argument, I just think the lines could have been a bit more original.

But you are right about one thing: Tom at the helm was absolutely breathtaking! :-)

Mike -- 15 Oct 1998, 12:48 PM

Bad night, Katie... It was refreshing to see a new episode again. Overall I liked 'Night', but I considered it a bad Janeway episode. As usual, I wrote this before reading the other CN comments posted.

Likes:

I enjoyed the Buster Crabb 'Flash Gordon' and 'Ming the Merciless' parody. The black and white effects on the holodeck were impressive, especially the contrast when the doc made his entrance in color. My admiration for Tom continues to grow and I have to admit there is a certain chemistry between Tom and Seven in their scenes alone together. I like the Tom B'Elanna pairing, but they have some really nasty arguments , sure all couples argue now and than in private, but arguing like they did in public was very childish, especially for two senior officers who should be setting an example, like Neelix said.

Likes:

-The atmosphere created really gave me a feeling for the crew's boredom and the emptiness of the void they were in. The scenes showing the lights from the ship were neat.

-Seven is getting a good sense of humor. I liked when she called Tom "Captain Proton" after his tricky Voyager maneuver.

-Doc's lines and comic timing were as good as ever.

-Captain Janeway showed she does feel remorse for stranding her crew in the DQ, and she felt she may have been wrong making that decision for all of them even if she was trying to do the right thing.

-I like Tom's and Harry's Flash Gordon/Buck Rodgers style program. It's in keeping with Tom's mentioning in the past that he loved old B horror movies and such. The old fashion robots were wonderful!

-Katie listening to both sides of the story before she took sides, even after she was rescued by what appeared to be an ally.

-Katie with her (sign) compression phaser rifle (sigh again :^).

Dislikes:

-Why did that bad AOTW help Voyager in the first place. He obviously didn't care about saving lives or he wouldn't have been killing all those dark dwellers (or what ever their names were).

-If the dark dwellers lived in total darkness without even stars, why did they have eyes and how did they survive without heat. Also where did they live if no planets were detected, or was the void just starless?

-Captain Janeway was wrong secluding herself from the crew just because she was having an attack of conscience. They needed her for moral support, but she was busy moping in the dark and wallowing in self-pity. These are not the actions of a star ship captain. It seems the writers still don't know how to handle Katie's character properly. Sure she's still my favorite because of the good Janeway episodes (and because she's so darned cute), but the writers seem determined to disappoint me more often than not.

-The crew disobeying Janeway's orders was meant to be cute and sentimental, but it was just disconcerting to me.

-I didn't like how Janeway followed the same pattern Tuvok told of in his story to Chakotay, risking her life to make up for something she felt guilty about. This is another trait that is not good for a captain. She should know that sometimes a Captain has to send people in harms way and that star fleet crews know the risks they take by joining up.

Some of you that know me may be surprised that I'm criticizing Kate's actions so much, but when she's wrong, she's wrong. I still say she's the cutest thing that ever walked the deck of a starship :^). Don't get me wrong, I liked 'Night', I just thought that for the most part, it was a bad Janeway episode.

Andy -- 15 Oct 1998, 2:20 PM

I agree with you on several points, Mike. I fell asleep during the episode last night (not because it was bad, but because the show was bad but because I was very tired and there wasn't enough JLR to keep my adrenaline up) so I can't give a complete opinion of the episode. From what I saw, however, I thought is was a perfectly acceptable show.

But back to you, Mike. P/Ter's, give up. The real hot couple on this show is Seven/Paris. Perhaps foremost, I think viewers like to look at beautiful people together. I'll take the word of all you women about Paris being such a stud. And lets just face facts, folks. JLR as Seven has a very regal beauty about her. I think OBleek compared her to Grace Kelly once. This is an apt observation. With her hair up, her great posture and other obvious attributes, Seven is beautiful in a very classical sense. These two play very well off each other. Paris seems to be a little softer where Seven is concerned and Seven's growing sense of humor comes out in his presence. I don't know how TPTB would pull it off without P/Oing a lot of you, but they would do well to end the endless bickering of the P/T relationship and work on P/S.

I also agree with you about Kate in this episode. Let me put it like this: I don't think it serves her character well portraying her in a funk, hiding in her cabin while there is a certain amount of crisis among her crew. Talk about killing crew morale. It certainly was very un-military of her, and I can't picture Kirk or Picard doing anything similar.

One thing is clear to me, even though I didn't see much of the episode. Although satisfying in a low-key sort of way, it sure didn't seem like a good choice to start off a new season. There wasn't much there to attract new viewers, and let's face it, Voyager needs some new viewers. Last year, part of the reason I started watching the show again was because the ads for Scorpion Pt. 2 looked so entertaining. Will a show like "Night" grab viewers? I don't think so. It might have made more sense to save this one for later in the season and aired a "kick-@$$" episode, as Eric might put it, to start the new year. The next time Braga calls me, I'll be sure to point this out.

I haven't seen any overnight ratings, but I'll betcha they are very disappointing.

O. Bleek -- 15 Oct 1998, 2:18 PM

Night was better than I expected. Spoilers about "Captain Proton" didn't do much for me, so I was expecting something cheesy.

The Good:

The blackness of the area and how it was affecting the crew. (Poor Neelix - him in the corner wif him blankie.)

The light-averse AOTW were cool. I liked their movements and I liked their skin.

Seven of Nine with the Robot. LOL! What was Paris expecting? Role-playing from the Borgette? (And why is Paris inviting Seven to the Holodeck?)

Harry playing his clarinet. Tuvok meditating in the astrometrics lab.

Harry and Tom playing in the holodeck - humorous, and we got to see the buddies doing something together.

The Bad:

Janeway holed up in a guilt-ridden stew? Noooo!!!! Never. I don't buy it. It was S-T-U-P-I-D. It wasn't in character, and if she was all holed up like that, the senior staff would have forced her to get medical treatment. She came out of the shadows looking like she'd been on a martini binge. That's not the Kate I know.

Chakotay going to Tuvok for a little tete-a-tete about Katherine. Didn't play well for me. I didn't like the scenario. (BTW, everyone knows that Janeway's closest, most trusted confidant is Tuvok, NOT Chakotay. - was she just being gracious?)

Janeway offering herself up for sacrifice and the ensuing mutiny on the bridge - who wrote this hogwash? Our VC writers would do a much better job, I'm sure of it.

The Ugly:

Mr. Emck - what are those boils on his face? Someone's been watching Dune too many times.

All-in-all I was entertained.

P.S. - Chakotay needs to bust a move or something. He's waaaayyy to stiff.

D'Alaire -- 15 Oct 1998, 2:28 PM

I don't like debating on opinion alone. But I disagree.

I'm going to vent a bit. I don't do this often, but I just wanted to speak my mind on this.

It's sort of funny. They write romance, someone complains about kissy-poo, gushiness or soap. They write a spat, others say they fight too much (and I'm only generalizing here from some other responses).

Everybody has their preferences in pairings, some hate them entirely. Personally, from season one, nearly as far back as Caretaker, I've thought Tom and B'Elanna would be good [if not perfect] for each other -- and because of their "different" similarities, in their personalities, faults and histories.

I was thrilled to hear TPTB would do something with it two years later. I, personally, was not disappointed. Of course, there was a bit of annoying soap (or simply silly characterization blurbs) in the last half of S4--but so many problems and extenuating factors existed with the eps then, I could group it all together as just a dark period in the show. P/T certainly wasn't the biggest problem, though. Vis a Vis was a drag, but only a few episodes before that was that goregous (IMO) scene in Hunters--where B'Elanna simply put her hand on Tom's cheek and stared into his eyes. It was subtle and lovely and loving, spoke volumes. I liked DOH, Rev., SM, too, and not guiltily. I could go on (so what's new? [grin]).

I do see chemistry between Tom and B'Elanna, and I do like their spats (including the S3 ones), even if I'd much rather see the fun romantic and/or sexy stuff. What I don't like, yes, is the soap, any gooey stuff or fight that's pointless to the plot, of course. In Night's case, as Terry said, the spat served a few purposes (no ideas from spoilers included), did its job. It displayed their responses to their cabin fever and did some framework. And for that, I'm not sorry for it.

It'll be a while before we see what's going on, and TPTB have written the relationship as something settled and understood, and will be using it as spice alone or when its relevant.

Although the undying romantic in me grits her teeth at this and calls them cowards for their avoidance, the sci-fi/characterization/plot nut in me says I shouldn't expect so much in this genre, and that it's better for the characters and stories in the end.

So I'll just keep reading fanfic and hoping they work in at least a couple romantic stories this season. I sincerely hope "sexing up the show" does not totally involve Seven or various BOTW. Call me crazy, but I love watching committed relationships and seeing them work and develop over a long period of time. P/T has definitely not disappointed me there, and shouldn't in the season to come, from what I see.

As for some other pairings (J/P & C/T), well, everyone knows how I feel about them. Parent/child conflict, and this, again, is just my opinion. I personally don't see Paris and Seven as anything more than friends, and trust me, I'd admit it a little jealously if I did. (And though I do like the T/S jealousy idea, but I'm also afraid it'd turn petty. If they won't write romance, they certainly can't write jealousy fairly. If they did it well, though, I'd be interested.) But Chakotay and Seven...hmmm. I hadn't considered that. Interesting thought.

Blah, blah--I know. Just had to say it so I know I had.

AC -- 15 Oct 1998, 3:58 PM

What you said, D'Alaire! Thoughts of a Janeway/Paris coupling make my skin crawl. I *can't* see their personalities meshing. Paris is waaaay too much of a smarty pants (but in a way I like), and Janeway would end up being annoyed. Plus, he's extremely junior in rank. If Janeway doesn't end up with Chakotay, I could see her with Tuvok. Or, on the other hand, why doesn't she just have a wild fling on an away mission sometime?

But that hardly would advance the plot of a scientific show, so I suppose she'll continue her role of Saint Janeway the Chaste.

And I don't see TPTB breaking up P/T. With the setup for "Extreme Risk," if anything, as B'Elanna works through her problems, they'll end up closer.

Cmdr. 8472 -- 15 Oct 1998, 4:21 PM

LOL, my friends at school haven't seen Night yet...but I told them about the Captain Proton thing, and they thought it was hilarious. We changed around the Snickers Batman line, so now it's:

"I'm Captain Proton! Hello, good citizen! You could be my secretary!"

But about the Malon and the toxic waste:
The first thing I said while watching the show with my dad when the Malon dude came on screen was, "Dad, he reminds me of the Wizard of Oz!" And the Void aliens reminded me of those glow-in-the dark lizard people from TNG. You know, where Geordi gets sick and is photophobic and turns into a glow-in-the-dark lizard person and beams down to the planet?

Anyway, message? What message? I didn't even start to THINK about the message of the show before you mentioned it. THE THEME OF THE STORY IS, DUMPING TOXIC WASTE IN PEOPLES HOMES IS HARMFUL! *LOL* ok, I don't think my English teacher would accept that. Ok, theme...hmmmm...Being considerate is a virtue? Or is this one of those trick questions where the story has more than one theme? *L*

Carol -- 15 Oct 1998, 4:34 PM

Mike Wrote:

-Captain Janeway was wrong secluding herself from the crew just because she was having an attack of conscience. They needed her for moral support, but she was busy moping in the dark and wallowing in self-pity. These are not the actions of a star ship captain. It seems the writers still don't know how to handle Katie's character properly. Sure she's still my favorite because of the good Janeway episodes (and because she's so darned cute), but the writers seem determined to disappoint me more often than not.

I somewhat agree, but here's why I liked even this bit -- TPTB didn't try to write it that what she was doing was the right thing.

In the past, I know they would have tried to make it that what she was doing was the right thing, no matter what. But the whole scene with Chakotay basically calling her out and telling her it was a bad time for her mood was perfect. And depression doesn't make one exactly have rational thoughts. Maybe she wasn't portrayed in the best light during some of this -- but it was a realistic one, as far as depression goes.

Has anyone noticed this latest trend with Starfleet Captain of late? Sisko desserts his crew and a war and runs home all because his best friend got killed and the profits disappeared and Janeway's guilt sends her into a depression funk, unable to face her crew with confidence. Wonder what's up with it.

Michelle -- 15 Oct 1998, 6:48 PM

Okay . . . let's start with a nit-pick of sorts. I'm sorry if someone asked this, I tried to read all the Night posts but . . . there's so many!

When the Malon dude first came on board, he had to stay in the transporter room because he was "leaking" from his suit (DON'T GO THERE). Then we saw him in Engineering. Did I miss when he was "repaired" or "compensated for"?

I truly enjoyed Night. I thought Janeway's guilt/seclusion was well done. I especially liked the conversation between her and Chakotay. She gets a funny look when she disagrees with him about "whose" decision it was to destroy the array. I thought it was very realistic. I thought she looked great. I liked the new look (t-shirt) of the uniform. Tom noticed that "it must be cold in her quarters." Definitely a GUY thing. (WE ARE NOT GOING THERE.) Tom is still a card-carrying SEVEN'S A BABE member but mentioned he thought Janeway looked "HOT." There's hope for that man yet!

Chakotay looked especially handsome. I just love a man in (or out of) uniform. Even Tom (Paris) was looking spiffy.

I enjoyed the quips very much. Seven as a stand-up comedian? The Doc could probably open for her.

The bridge scene was well done I thought. I don't think they overdid the "sacrificing" thing. I liked that ALL of the others stood firm. And that Janeway could let it go with a bit of humor.

Anyway . . . a great episode!! I even watched it again on tape. What can I say?

Carol -- 15 Oct 1998, 8:43 PM

Over-Night Ratings. Yeah, I know, lame joke. But I'm feeling kind-of punchy as I was up almost all night studying for a midterm. Anyway, here you go.

Overnight Ratings for "Night"

The overnight ratings are in, and "Night" performed better than I expected. It achieved a 6.4 rating, 10 share. This is down from "Scorpion, Part II"'s 8.8 overnight rating last year; however, that high rating was for the back end of a cliffhanger with the introduction of a new character. I would expect the final rating to be in the mid-to-low 5.0s, above my prediction of a high-4s performance. It would also seem clear that Voyager has re-established itself as UPN's top show for a while as "7 Days"' second outing managed a 4.5/7 share (Better than "The Sentinel"). Voyager finished 5th for the night in its timeslot, ahead of a "Party of Five" clip show, and behind "Charmed" of the WB, in addition to ABC, NBC, and CBS' sit-coms. Final ratings will be out tomorrow.

Shawnster -- 15 Oct 1998, 10:47 PM

"Night" worth staying up for.

I didn't get to watch "Night" until I got home from work (2:30 a.m.).

After reading the horrid USA Today review, I was expecting the worst. Instead, I was pleasantly surprised to see a decent, if not overly exciting, episode.

No, the show wasn't the greatest, most exciting episode to date but it was far from the worst. I think my best line was Seven's refusal to play Captain Proton. "I am Borg. (rips wires out). May I leave now?"

I also liked the explanation for the black and white scenes in the holodeck. I wondered how they were going to explain that.

I agree with Flite, the FX of the ship without outside illumination was a nice touch. When all the power failed, superbly done.

Boy, for an emotionless Vulcan, Tuvok can sure make the ironic comments. Chakotay: "Tuvok, I need your advice." Tuvok: "A first." Later, Seven's "Captain Proton to the rescue." was another nice line.

Nice to see Harry's Clarinet again. Getting presumptuous, loafing in the captain's chair, wasn't he?

Now, for the nits.

The first one is not really a nit. Janeway sulking in her quarters. What kind of captain is that? Let a little boredom happen and she goes nuts and draws into a shell. What does the rest of the crew think about her now? Will this be dealt with again?

I thought it was awfully convenient for the holodeck and life support (including artificial gravity) to be unaffected by the power drain.

Why were they concerned about power? The beginning of the episode shows them stockpiling power. Why? Were they going to run low? Shouldn't Voyager be self sustaining enough to last at least two years?

OK, so they needed to store power. The opening captain's log stated they were storing deuterium so they'd have some backup. Wouldn't that be like taking some of your gas out of the gas tank and storing it in a gas can for later use? Or did they stock up on deuterium before entering the void?

I've got some nits about the distances at the end of the show, but I'll save them for a later thread (I found a major problem with the Star Trek Encyclopedia's Warp Speed/Distances chart). Suffice to say, 2 million km. isn't that far of a distance when traveling at warp. (the speed of light is 29,806 km/second)

Next week. A 29th century Borg? How can Seven and the holodoc "mate" and produce an offspring? Given that, why do they call it a 29th century Borg? I'm sure we'll get the answers to these questions. I hope it isn't as bad as it sounds.

TomParis -- 16 Oct 1998, 2:26 AM

Not a bad NIGHT afterall !

Well you might have noticed when they came out of the void they were not at warp, they were still drifting from the shock wave, the warp engines were off line due to the fire fight they just left.

And in the holodeck Tom told seven that the secondary systems were still on, like life support and the holodecks. Which I want to know, wouldn't the lights be part of life support?

About next weeks episode, it is a transporter accident (which in my opinion makes the best episodes) that causes the 29th century Borg. I guess it happened when the Doc, and Seven were being transported from somewhere back to voyager, and Sevens nano- probes mix with the Doc's holo-emitter.

Carol -- 16 Oct 1998, 5:34 AM

Depression in Night. I think someone else might have mentioned this in the Night thread below, but since I can't find it...

OK, its almost completely acknowledged that Janeway was suffering from a form of Clinical Depression in this episode. She feels too guilty to face her crew so she locks herself away, doesn't take a interest in anything she usually does, etc. Had no major problem with any of that. All warnings signs of someone in a deep depression.

My question is -- Why doesn't anyone try to help her? Sure, Chakotay comes to her with the Velocity idea which she rejects outright. But later in that same scene the man finally finds out what's wrong with her; before that, nobody knew what was making her so isolated. Why didn't he talk to Tuvok right after that instead of waiting until after the AOTW showed up? Or talk to the Doctor even?

I know that one of the worst things to do for someone who is clinically depressed is to do nothing for them. (Which was a point several people made about Janeway's depression in Mosaic BTW). Yeah, sure, the AOTW showed up to make her snap out of it as it were to protect everyone she felt she betrayed and all, and it would have ruined the "mutiny"/intervention scene later (and laying out her martyr complex), but it still seemed rather off to me. Depression isn't a weakness as much as a sickness that needs to be treated or else it can show up again.

I don't know -- but I'm rather bothered that no one really tired to help her overcome it after finding out what was really wrong. It just seemed rather off from a crew that thinks of themselves like a family. Does this make sense?

Mike -- 16 Oct 1998, 12:50 PM

Good points, Carol...I suppose it could be called "realistic" to show that Janeway is only human and was not doing the right thing in 'Night', but what bothers me is she already has had her share of episodes showing personality quirks (for lack of a better word). Just last season we saw a few episodes showing Janeway's flaws: her coldness about her 'Scorpion' actions to the AOTW in 'Hope and Fear', losing her ship to the Hirogen and being used as a game piece in 'The Killing Game', her obsessive behavior in 'Year of Hell'. TPTB are showing Janeway's weaknesses too much. They have to start showing her personality strengths again. Andy mentioned that he could not imagine Picard or Kirk acting the way Janeway did at the beginning of 'Night', and I agree. Picard and Kirk both had their moments of weakness, but they never turned their back on their crew when they were needed. Janeway needs to be shown in a more positive light, we've seen enough of her human frailties for a while.

I agree with you, Carol, it is strange how both Sisko and Janeway recently turned their backs on their crews when they were needed. That was an interesting point you made about the similarities between Sisko's actions and Janeway's.

Carol -- 16 Oct 1998, 2:40 PM

Janeway's depression deals with her fear of failure and loss of control IMO. In every instance named (Mosaic, Tuvok's story, Night) Janeway had always loss her ability to control the situation and felt she failed someone one way or another.

And it seemed consistent to her character to me.

We all know what a control freak she is. Believing that she can think up a solution to every problem presented to her (pulling a rabbit out of a hat as it were). But the problem that was presented to her in Night wasn't something she could control, unlike the later AOTW threat.

I agree with MEG that depression isn't a weakness or flaw to her character, it was and is the handling of it that is. That all she need is something to make her feel in control again, put herself at risk for others, pull the proverbial "rabbit out of her hat" miracle she's done before in tough situations. Because, ultimately, when another situation like the one in Night, or the one Tuvok mentioned or the situation that happened with her father and fiance, or anything similar happens again, she's going to go off on either her martyr complex again or -- if the situation is one like Nights where she has time on her hands to reflect -- fill send her back into the same state again.

The ending of the episode was too neat and pretty. I'm just hopping Braga and CO. don't let this thing drop and think like Jeri Taylor did that the only strength is Janeway pulling herself out of her depressive state by doing something risky or gaining control again.

Anyway, I'm babbling. MEG, Leonie, good points in both your posts.:-)

DeltaQ -- 16 Oct 1998, 6:10 AM

Since I haven't seen Night yet, I may babble a little but still. I can just picture Chakotay walking into wherever Janeway is and talking a load of nothing. Man that is so irritating. Now see, this episode from what I can tell would have been the perfect time to sort these two out. My advice would have been a bedroom scene - but that's just me! Anyway what is wrong with the writers, I'm going insane. And please don't tell me he talks about animal guides or stories about warriors or I may just get a little bit depressed myself.

Leonie -- 16 Oct 1998, 7:12 AM

Have you ever tried to help someone who is clinically depressed? If you ever did then you would realize the fine line that you have to walk in doing so.

One of the things about depression which separates it from most other illnesses is that when it gets to it's peak, people withdraw completely from others. The more that people try to draw one out, the more the person shuts themself off. It gets even more dicey when the person is not showing any signs of physical sufferings.

If Janeway was starving herself to death, or if she was insomniac, or self destructive, then in a way it would have been easier for Chakotay and Tuvok to intervene. Take away her command and force her to reside in sick bay and be under the doctor's care. As it was, he didn't know really that she was depressed until that one scene. She didn't seem to be in any physical pain.

The impression that I had was that Janeway had begun to gradually to withdraw from her duties and then from her ship mates. I suspect at first Chakotay thought that she needed some time alone to recoup, after all they have had an eventful four years. Then he must have known that something was wrong, but again figured that she would come out of it on her own and the only thing that he could do was remind her that he was there for her. You can't force someone to talk to you if they don't want to.

I think that it is only when Neelix brought up the effect of the withdrawal of the captain on the crew, he figured that it had gone on long enough and decided to see if her could force her to come out of her shell. I suspect that if the aliens hadn't come along, he in time, if she had kept withdrawing, he would have sought Tuvok's advice and then forced the issue and relieved her or her command.

I think that the one scene when he tries to force her to come to the holodeck with him, was the first time he realized what was going on with her. I don't think he knew that she was feeling guilty about the caretaker's decision. It was only when she asked, "How did we get here" that he began to realize what was going on. We didn't even know that she was feeling guilty about it.

Then the aliens came and of course it was YAATE [Yet Another Abrupt Trek Ending] wrt [with regard to] Janeway's depression.

My point is that the Chakotay only began to realize the nature and extend of Janeway's depression in that scene. It was more at the beginning of the worst stage of her depression than it having gone on for a long time. Although two months (I think that's how long they were in the expanse), may seem like a long time, I think that the withdrawal may have occurred gradually and Chak didn't know how bad it was until that one scene.

And I believe dancing between the sheets would have been the worst thing for them to given her state. In that emotionally fragile state it would have just been devastating in the cold light of day for both of them, to deal with the repercussions of that act, even if they were interested in each other.

I am a JetCer. I have written them dancing between the sheets in my own Fanuc, so it's not opposition of the two of them getting together. I just believe that sex is being used as a modern day penicillin for emotional problems and quite frankly, it is not the cure all, any more than it is the end all and be all of our existence.

I am going to shut up now.

Joy -- 16 Oct 1998, 1:58 PM

You're right, O. Bleek. Where was the Doc? I was so entertained by Night that I tended to overlook its flaws. The one thing that really bothered me was the usage (or lack thereof) of the Doctor when it came to the Captain's depression.

Holodoc was used for comic relief this week, in an episode that had need for a wise medical presence. I got the impression that Doc's major concern was whether he got enough holodeck time or not. Even in that bridge scene, his line was "What's a hologram to do?" not "Let's get you to Sickbay and run some brain scans. Your withdrawal from the crew and potentially suicidal behaviour make me suspect a brain chemical imbalance that needs to be corrected. We need to find out."

Kathyrn might be able to pull herself in and out of the depressive state enough to continue to function, and even be able to hide her symptoms from those closest to her, but there is no excuse for medical personnel missing these clear signals. If we are supposed to believe that the Captain has had a major medical affective depression, the woman needs treatment, not an opera singer.

I'd like to see some reference to her treatment in later episodes. I kind of doubt that I will, though.

Terry -- 17 Oct 1998, 12:51 AM

Depression is a physical illness? I'm no expert (although I have had one severe bout with depression myself) but I believe some people are being confusing the blues with clinical depression. Everyone is depressed at one time or another to different degrees. But IMHO it is not always caused by a physical disorder.

Usually people are depressed because of a valid psychological reason. Their lover dumped them, they lost their job, their mother died, etc. Someone with whom I was speaking recently who has had clinical depression told me that people suffering from clinical depression often are depressed for no reason or that depression is out of proportion for the causes.

And frankly, I resent the implication that anyone who has undergone a bout of severe depression is somehow unfit for a position of responsibility for life.

One of my personal heroes, Abraham Lincoln, suffered from life-long bouts of depression. These were severe at time during the Civil War after the death of his youngest son. But IMO, no American has ever been one tenth the leader that Lincoln was.

In Night, Janeway's depression was severe and probably would have soon required intervention. Counseling might have been required. Still, I think that it hadn't yet reached a crisis situation.

I doubt Janeway has clinical depression. She got depressed when she had time to do nothing but brood over the past. I suspect that a physical disposition would have surfaced before this.

BTW, I am not any kind of expert in depression. So if what I am saying is all wrong, please set me straight and explain how. I just remembered that Roxanne was a nurse so it seems likely that I might be all wet.

And also, I have always been suspicious of people labeling serious behavioral problems as "diseases." Some may be but I always suspect that calling something a disease is a way of removing all responsibility for a person's actions. Adulterers and rapists are "sexual-addicts", wife-beaters are "rage-a-holics", pedophiles just can't help themselves.

I hope that I haven't upset anyone. I didn't mean to insult anyone or their opinions.

Andy -- 17 Oct 1998, 10:30 AM

I agree and disagree, Terry. First, I am right behind you so far as our modern tendency to excuse all kinds of behavior based on some type of pathology.

Just the other day, there was a case in Las Vegas that drew quite a little publicity where a teenager raped and killed a small girl in a casino restroom. His attorneys were going to base his defense on all sorts of excuses---his mother was a drug addict, he never had a puppy, etc, etc, but the guy was smart enough to cop a plea and avoid a death sentence. The point is that I and suspect most people are tired of people trying to blame their unacceptable behavior on anything but themselves.

On the other hand, I don't have any doubt that many types of depression are rooted in distinctly physical causes. I don't know the chemistry but the fact that certain drug treatments like Prozac which affect imbalances in the brain have been so successful is enough to show that depression is more than an attitude. I think it is pretty clear that a lot of people who suffer from depression don't have any choice in the matter.

I guess I draw the line when people allow this to become entirely destructive toward others. I believe Mike Tyson may suffer from depression, but I won't allow him to use that as an excuse to bite off Evander Holyfield's ears. Ultimately, every individual has to take responsibility for his or her own actions--at least to the point when those actions might be dangerous to other people.

So far as Janeway goes, I don't think she suffers from any sort of physically induced depression. She has simply goofed-up so many times that any sane person would have to experience intense guilt. If my actions or inactions caused severe distress to others, or even their deaths, I'd probably want to crawl under a rock and die. But that wouldn't make me clinically depressed, just a man with a conscience.

Like you, I venture into this conversation attempting to tread lightly. There are people here that will tell you that depression is a disease that can be as deadly as cancer. I hope that it is not unfair for me to have the view that we shouldn't allow it to be used as an excuse for directly hurting other people. If it is, someone let me know.

Carol -- 17 Oct 1998, 12:53 PM

The writers pretty much more or less stated in Coda that Janeway was clinically depressed once before in her life. And if you know the full story of it from Mosaic you'd know that it wasn't just because her father and fiance died. It stemmed mostly from the fact that she felt responsible for their deaths.

(Mosaic spoilers for those who've never read it).

In the book, she watched the two of them slowly drown to death. The transporter from the crashed shuttle only had enough power to transport one person out of it and she couldn't choose between the two of them so she tried to boost enough power to get both of them out, but the transporter didn't work when she finally did have enough and no matter how hard she tried, she couldn't save them.

She was raised in a overachieving household and, up until that moment, their wasn't anything she didn't think she could do or figure out how to do, and ultimately succeed. The guilt of her failure to save the two most important people in her life in that incident made her so depressed that she blocked it out completely and took to withdrawing, sleeping, etc. All the textbook symptoms. It wasn't just the fact that they had died -- it was also how and the way they died.

So I think the guilt she was feeling in Night sent her back to the same state as it did then with the exception of not blocking out the event this time.

I don't think the writers were overstating her just feeling blue or just simply having a guilty conscience. It was her guilt that sent her into a classic case of depression the first time around. Its a patterned that's happened before. Tuvok's story showed that she had found a different way of dealing with that depression than simply repeating what she had been mention to do in Coda (sleeping, etc.). But in the void, she had no outlet for her guilt and reverted back to her earlier pattern. When the AOTW showed up, they gave her the opportunity to descend into her later pattern of risk-taking behavior to deal with the depression coupled by the guilt.

Tomparis -- 17 Oct 1998, 4:12 PM

Her depression in Mosaic is her parents fault in away, because they never taught her that some times you fail, and sometimes you don't, or can't do the best, or right thing. She never learned how to cope with that sort thing, so when it happens she tries to keep busy to avoid thinking about it, and in this case, she ran out of things to do to so she began to remember the past, her conscience caught up with her. She did have an outlet for her feelings, she had the holodeck, all she had to do was remove the safeties, and run B'Elanna's pain stick program.

Joy -- 17 Oct 1998, 6:39 AM

I'm no expert either, Terry . . . I only have my own experience to go by, not any formal training like Roxanne or others.

The way I understand it, there is a difference between having the blues and clinical depression. Sometimes it is difficult to see the difference, especially to the layman, or family members dealing with the depressed person. Blue periods come to everyone, as you and Roxanne have both pointed out.

I have to quote the hotline counselor I spoke with when I first sought treatment. She said "It sounds like you are depressed. By that, I don't mean that you're sad, I mean that your brain chemistry has undergone a change that has caused an illness, just like diabetes or thyroid disease. You need to come in and have bloodwork done. There is a possibility that you need medication. We can also give you counseling that will help you to deal with these feelings."

In my case, that particular bout of depression was a post-partum type, perfectly normal, right? Well, the problem was my baby was two years old and my brain chemistry had not righted itself as it should have. During counseling, we discovered that I had had at least two more bouts of depression in previous years, one that was post-partum related, and one that wasn't. As I said earlier, the spectre of future episodes is always there, because I know that my brain chemistry is at risk to get out of whack from time to time, particularly during extreme hormonal changes such as child birth. (You can only imagine how much I look forward to menopause! :-P)

My problem with the depressed aspect of Janeway's behaviour in Night lies with the way it was presented. If she was simply blue, then I think the writers went way overboard making the point. Some introspection and desire to be alone might be natural, but they presented Janeway as something a little more than that: completely withdrawn from the rest of the crew, a crew she has professed to care deeply about, and they were all going through the same isolation that she was. A period of blues becomes an affective depression when it affects the person's behaviour. Having Tuvok and Chakotay discuss her previous actions seemed to be making a point that she had a history of this type of behaviour. Her wish to find redemption by sacrificing herself was potentially suicidal, another manifestation of a clinical depression. I saw the crew's mutiny as a type of intervention, and I think the doctor should have been more involved.

Like you, I dislike the stigma attached to mental illness, especially depression, which is more common than most people think. I don't know if all clinical depression has underlying physical causes. I only know that mine did.

Well, enough rambling for an early Saturday morning! I hope I haven't been pontificating.

Let's hear it for mental health! :-)

Tomparis -- 17 Oct 1998, 3:03 PM

Joy wrote:
My problem with the depressed aspect of Janeway's behaviour in Night lies with the way it was presented. If she was simply blue, then I think the writers went way overboard making the point. Some introspection and desire to be alone might be natural, but they presented Janeway as something a little more than that: completely withdrawn from the rest of the crew, a crew she has professed to care deeply about, and they were all going through the same isolation that she was. A period of blues becomes an affective depression when it affects the person's behaviour in a detrimental fashion. Having Tuvok and Chakotay discuss her previous actions seemed to be making a point that she had a history of this type of behaviour. Her wish to find redemption by sacrificing herself was potentially suicidal, another manifestation of a clinical depression. I saw the crew's mutiny as a type of intervention, and I think the doctor should have been more involved.

The writers went to great lengths illustrating almost textbook symptoms of a clinical depression(without actually coming right out and saying the words), then backed off at a crucial point by having her say something along the lines of "Maybe we should come up with a better plan." For now, that seems to be the end of the matter, and I think that is just a teensy bit too pat. It just isn't that easy.

-----------------------------------------------------------

Geeze some of you people are acting like the whole episode was pointed around Janeway's so called "depression" which it was not, it was about THE CREW being in a void with nothing to do for what they thought would last for two years. What there was one scene where they showed her (IMO) blues. The scene on the bridge was The captain sacrificing themselves, for the good of her crew. Which Picard, Sisko, and Kirk have offered, or thought about doing. It wasn't suicidal, there was no guarantee that she would die, the crew didn't even think so, they said "You alone in the Delta Quadrant?" and she said "I'll have enough supplies" What in that is suicidal? She had no planes on dying. If you noticed she wanted a full compliment of photon torpedoes, it's not like she was going to be defenseless. The writers didn't go to any lengths to show any depression on her part, the went to great lengths to so the depression of the CREW! Many people here are acting like the whole episode was all about Janeway and her "Depression". Yes I know she was depressed in 'Mosaic" but if you think about most people would in those circumstances. Which Tuvok should know, or does know, if he is as good as friend as he claims to be.

That's another thing, I thought Tuvok was Janeway's closest friend, but in Night she said that Chakotay was. Is this a sign of things to come?

Joy -- 18 Oct 1998, 10:24 AM

Disclaimer: I would like to state at the outset that I dislike using the form of discussion I am about to employ. I find it to be rather contentious, and I really prefer discussions that are friendlier, more like a group sitting around in someone's den, having an informal chat about topics near and dear to their hearts, the way we have been doing. However, since it appears I haven't made myself clear, I hope this form might help communication.

TomParis wrote:
--- Geeze some of you people are acting like the whole episode was pointed around Janeway's so called "depression" which it was not, it was about THE CREW being in a void with nothing to do for what they thought would last for two years.

Frankly, I don't think anyone here (if I may be so bold as to speak for the rest of the Nebulites involved in this thread) thinks that the whole episode Night was about Janeway's depression. If you're looking for general Night discussion, check the thread titled: Night Discussion Area (NIM) posted by Terry on 14 Oct 1998,, if you haven't already done so. I think you'll find that most of us saw a lot of other things in the episode, and enjoyed it very much, myself included.

THIS THREAD is titled Depression in Night and I don't think it is out of line to speculate on the Captain's possible depression here. That's what the main thread here was posted for, I believe. Carol, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

TomParis wrote:
--- What there was one scene where they showed her (IMO) blues.---

There may have been only one scene that had the Captain actually in it, but there were several scenes that contained discussion about the Captain's absence, and her methods of dealing with certain types of situations. Chakotay/Seven, the senior staff meeting, Chakotay/Janeway, Chakotay/Tuvok leap to mind immediately. There may have been more, but I don't have the time right now to go back and watch the episode again.

TomParis wrote:
---The scene on the bridge was The captain sacrificing themselves, for the good of her crew. Which Picard, Sisko, and Kirk have offered, or thought about doing.---

If Picard, Sisko, or Kirk had been the captain in this episode, AND had been behaving in the same manner, AND had the same history as Janeway, I would be wondering about their mental state also. If I may digress a bit, I've had occasion to wonder about all the Trek captains' mental health over the years, especially Sisko's.

TomParis wrote:
---It wasn't suicidal, there was no guarantee that she would die, the crew didn't even think so, they said "You alone in the Delta Quadrant?" and she said "I'll have enough supplies" What in that is suicidal? She had no planes on dying. If you noticed she wanted a full compliment of photon torpedoes, it's not like she was going to be defenseless.---

If you will go back and check my remarks, I believe you will find that I said POTENTIALLY suicidal. Defined in Webster's New World Dictionary: potential- that can be, but IS NOT YET; possible.

Supplies and photon torpedoes do not necessarily ensure survival. A person alone (Starfleet captain or not) in a Starfleet shuttle (we all know how sturdy and dependable THOSE are) in the Delta Quadrant (not the FRIENDLIEST place in the galaxy, by any stretch of the imagination) would be at VERY high risk to be killed. The present and immediate threat, the Maylon, seemed to think he had the firepower to destroy Voyager itself, and I didn't notice B'Elanna or Chakotay disagreeing with him. A shuttle would have virtually no chance of survival against that kind of force. Janeway HAD to know she was on what could possibly (POTENTIALLY) be a suicide mission. She isn't naive, and wasn't presented as delusional. It sounds very lovely and noble to talk about how she was willing to sacrifice herself for the good of her crew, but to ME it paints a portrait of a woman hell-bent on self destruction.

TomParis wrote:
---And what's to say that there was not other crewmen doing the same thing as the captain. Sure they would have to show up for there duties, but after that they might just go lock themselves in their quarters. Just being two holodecks, and 24 hours in the day, I think the time the would have there would be far and in-between, so what else was there to do, be like Tom and B'Elanna, and play the same game over and over again?---

Even if that is so (and we weren't shown that), just because others exhibit similar behavior doesn't mean that the behavior is reasonable or healthy .

TomParis wrote:
---It's not like there was a lot to do, I really don't think Janeway woke up one day and said, "Today, and until we get out of this void, I am not coming out of my quarters." She more unlikely found less and less to do, and started spending more time by herself, which many people do, and is not always depression.---

People sliding into depression, be it situational or clinical, are seldom aware of it. Finding less and less to do, wanting to spend more and more time alone, these all creep up on a person unawares. The person involved can even rationalize their behavior, to themselves and to others (the way Janeway did with Chakotay), making it seem to be their choice, when, in actuality they prefer to be alone because it is simply too difficult to do otherwise.

TomParis wrote:
---Has anyone thought that maybe she wanted to be be alone because she thought that if she didn't get away for awhile she would go crazy? I mean who hasn't thought that at least once in there lives? Maybe she thought that life at one point in that void was to stressful and she need to getaway (the only way she could) for awhile or she might start doing things she shouldn't, say like blowing up at the crew, what would happen if her and Seven got into one of there disagreements, there would probably be a (cat) fight. Sure Eric would probably enjoy it, but it wouldn't fit into the time frame.---

If the captain believed that she had to get away or "go crazy" or "blow up at the crew"(which I'm not sure is the case), then the problem is even more serious, not less.

TomParis wrote:
---I think the point of it was to give us a feeling on how the crew was feeling alone, isolated, stressed, and not to mention bored. I think some of us are just looking to much into nothing.---

Feelings of stress, boredom, isolation and loneliness were established through all of the actions and interactions of all the crew. B'Elanna, Tom, Harry, Tuvok and even Neelix were shown to be pursuing alleviation to boredom in much healthier ways. The Captain' s actions and inactions were shown in a different light. People who are merely feeling isolated and lonely seek out companionship, even if that companionship is not particularly fun anymore, the way Tom and B'Elanna did. They do not isolate themselves even further.

Leonie -- 17 Oct 1998, 8:13 AM

Well (building my own personal stage) I think...and maybe that's the problem, I think too much about what my opinion is and not enough on whether or not I should actually state it.

Couple of thoughts.

Sorry Roxanne, I have to side with Terry on this one. One or two bouts of depression is not enough to declare someone unfit to command a starship at any time. Especially in the 24th century where modern medicine seems to have found a cure for the body waste extraction process. If Janeway was depressed as a result of something which was the result of her body chemistry, combination of counseling, awareness of triggers of the depression and medicine would have ensured that she was capable of a captaincy.

She has always shown that, and in fact it was said in Mosaic that Paris had recommended her for command because she was able to think on her feet and command under stress.

I agree with you on this front. I suspect that her depression in Mosaic was clinical in the sense that it had all the signs of depression; (withdrawal, inability to function and inability to interact with the people around her)and it did require intervention; her sister. However it did not require medication. If it did Phoebe would not have been able to make her get out of bed and stay out.

Losing a spouse and a family member is one of the most stress filled occurrences in ones life and it would seem natural that it would be at that time that Janeway would be the most depressed.

I will have to disagree with Terry on one front.

Looking at Clinical Depression as sometimes having physical causes and sometimes sometimes just psychological causes does not make it any less a disease in my book. The effects on a person's pschye and behavior are the same.

I also want to say a word of caution on being suspicious of people calling something a disease and in doing so saying that they want to remove all responsibilities for from their actions.

As with most things, this is a two edged sword.

Most people who have been diagnosed with behavioral diseases feel both relieved that there is a cause behind why they feel so bad and then distressed when they can't pull themselves up by their own bootstraps. When people voice their opinions that the medical profession is calling behavioral disorders diseases, this reinforces the message that there is something wrong with them if they can't pull themselves up by their bootstraps.

The flip side of this is that a person has to know that no matter what state he or she is in, they are always responsible for their actions. Actions have consequences and sometimes we may not know or see clearly as to what those are. When we violate another person's dignity and quality of life by our actions we are responsible for that and all the consequences that ensues.

I promise this is the last rant before I go do battle with my computer store.

About the Chakotay/Tuvok intervention. If I remember correctly, the intervention was to be on Kate's action with the new aliens, not with her depression. She had miraculously snapped out of her funk when the aliens attacked (TA DA!!! all better)and the story that Tuvy gave, Janeway as not depressed at the time just feeling guilty.

Two issues here. Depression was the stewing, withdrawing and questioning her actions and dealing inappropriately with the guilt she was feeling by doing the former.

She seemed to snap out of her depression but she still wasn't dealing appropriately with the guilt that had probably started it and as a result she wanted to find redemption by sacrificing herself. The stopping of her action driven by guilt was an intervention which should have been dealt by the crew. They realized that she was blaming herself for something that they had accepted a long time ago and embraced even if she hadn't.

Roxanne: -- 17 Oct 1998, 4:21 PM

There are many kinds of depression. The two that are being discussed here are: Situational depression and Clinical Depression. They both require some intervention, but the Clinical Depression is a much deeper depression than situational depression. It usually requires medical intervention.

Situational depression IMHO is what is and did affect Janeway. Had it been clinical depression, I still maintain that she wouldn't have been in command because clinical depression can incapacitate you to a point where you can't think or handle anything. That would be a mistake in space.

In the case in Mosaic, Phoebe did help Janeway get up and at it, but what really pulled her out was the puppy that needed her more than she needed to die. In this story, her ship and her crew came under attack and they needed her more than she needed to feel sorry for herself. In both cases all it took was to have something other than herself to focus on.

Okay, off my soap box again.

BTW I liked it a lot. It was fun to see the different ways the crew interacted and reacted to their situations.

Joy -- 17 Oct 1998, 11:59 PM

Thanks, Roxanne for mentioning situational depression as opposed to clinical depression. I've been working on a couple of posts for higher in the thread, and I mention situational depression there, somewhat vaguely, I admit. It will be helpful if folks already know the difference. It's so late now, I doubt I will get them posted tonight.

Let me ask you a question, you being our resident medical expert and all ;-): Can situational depression deteriorate into clinical depression? I remotely recall a conversation with a psychiatrist friend of mine, years ago, and I think he said something about watching situational depression closely, to be sure it wasn't becoming clinical depression. I wish I could remember the conversation word-for-word, but it's been too many years for that. Sigh. ;-D

Ruth -- 19 Oct 1998, 3:50 PM

Review Boy's, uh, *review* of "Night" is up. I thought for a minute that he'd been in contact with Cowgirl Vickie, Leonie, or Michelle when I read this:

"I've been told I'd be remiss if I didn't mention that Chakotay's jacket is off, he's in his Starfleet undershirt, and that he looks, er, "yummy." Rippling forearms, well-defined chest, washboard abs, yada yada. Total babe, Latin Adonis, girls swoon, fertility rates skyrocket, and so on. Even in the oppressive Big Dark, his luminescent manliness is a beacon to us all. Moving on."

But he later acknowledges another Chakaholic as his inspiration. ;-)

Review Boy -- 20 Oct 1998, 1:16 AM

I wrote that Chak description under duress. [NIM]

D'Alaire -- 19 Oct 1998, 4:08 PM

Budweiser--Snort! Jim's back!

As usual, I don't agree with everything he says, and totally agree with other points -- but dang, it's nice to read his reviews again!

Once again, I feel I've stepped into an alternate universe -- new eps, now new reviews.

(insert Twilight Zone theme here) Yea!

Review Boy (JW) -- 19 Oct 1998, 8:14 PM

Who Dares Disagree with RB?

Feel free to--but come on, I need details. ;-)

My guess would be, something related to Tom and B'Elanna....

Terry -- 19 Oct 1998, 8:59 PM

I do.

I enjoyed reading your review as I usually do. But my feelings about this episode diverged sharply from yours.

First, you thought the last half of the episode much more interesting than the first. I felt the opposite. I was more intrigued by seeing how the crew responded to having too much time on their hands. We never see much of what the crew does in their spare time or what they think about their lives off-duty.

But I will admit that second half was more exciting. The AOTW story was okay and was surprisingly well integrated into the character-based A-story about the crew's personal lives. But we see that AOTW stuff and special effects every week.

"Dune" meets "The Lorax." Very funny but unfortunately not very accurate. Just because the alien looks like Baron Harkkonen and was a polluter?

About Kate showing up with Betsy and blazing away at the aliens. What a cheap thrill! One that I didn't much enjoy. Cliche as heck. What is she doing using such a large, unwieldy weapon in the narrow corridors of the ship? The rifle is so large that she can't even aim it properly. If she places the butt on her shoulder, she can't even reach the trigger. It was a ridiculous sight alleviated only by the fact that she missed twice and blew the bejesus out of the corridor.

I liked the fact that the mutiny scene was underplayed and not hysterical. The ship is not a democracy, but the crew has let Janeway act way too irrationally in the past. I thought that it did a good job of showing how much like a family the crew has become. Starfleet no but isolation for four years requires adjustment.

Much of what I liked about the episode was in the small things. The actors seemed to be more in tune with their characters. They seemed more natural. Yes, Kim's jokes and come-backs sucked. But they're supposed to! His character has a lame sense of humor. The difference between the banter here and in Demon was that bad jokes produced groans and ridicule rather than phony smiles and chuckles

Only comment about P/T is about your characterization of their fight as the "same tired old tune." Uh, Jim, that was the point. The fight was supposed to be trivial, tired, and pointless. It started because they accused each other of being unoriginal. They were bored. And it seems like you completely missed on the foreshadowing of Extreme Risk by the painstick reference.

All of the actors seemed sharp and involved unlike the lazy jobs seen from many last season. And I loved the dark lighting, both inside the ship and without. Creative use of light and shadow was a strength of this ep.

I agree about Captain Proton and with your overall rating of 3 stars. As much as you criticized the ep, I was surprised by your *** out of four. You told us much more about what you disliked.

Jason -- 19 Oct 1998, 9:24 PM

Don't criticize Kate and her guns! (Although I'll concede right now that I prefer her with the FC type rifle, myself:)

I thought that Janeway showing up at that moment was well done and not really that cliched. (And, if I recall correctly, Janeway did hit the alien with the first shot but for some reason he was phaser resistant.)

I did have the question of how Janeway managed to get to a weapon's locker in complete darkness, given that her light was phaser mounted. So I just kinda assumed that she keeps a phaser rifle by her bed for protection. Maybe she heard that one of the holo novels the crew was starting to play more often in the void was Insurrection Alpha. ;-)

I thought that whole sequence was crucial for showing that despite Janeway's depression and isolation, she was still very capable of taking control of the ship and situation. She immediately carried out a course of action to get Voyager out of a disaster situation.

But I entirely agree that it was a cheap thrill. One that I greatly enjoyed. :-)

Review Boy -- 20 Oct 1998, 1:14 AM

Well done. Thanks, Terry. I appreciate the feedback! You bring up some great points.

> my feelings about this episode diverged sharply from yours.

I'm glad--I've been waiting for someone to defend the ep. Most of my mail so far has come from those who didn't care for it.

> I was more intrigued by seeing how the crew responded to having too much time on their hands.

I loved the IDEA of it. But I thought the execution was hit-and-miss.

> We never see much of what the crew does in their spare time or what they think about their lives off-duty.

Very True. I wanted to see much more of that.

> "Dune" meets "The Lorax." Very funny but unfortunately not very accurate.

It's one of my bad habits. Given the choice between funny and accurate--I tend to go for funny...

> Just because the alien looks like Baron Harkkonen and was a polluter?

Honestly? Yes. :) That's all I meant.

> About Kate showing up with Betsy and blazing away at the aliens. What a cheap thrill!

I'm a guy; cheap thrills are enough. :)

It says a lot about Janeway (good AND bad) that the rifle is her weapon of choice, even when it's not the right tool for the job. It didn't drop the alien, but it did scare him off and save Chakotay and Neelix from Paris' fate.

> I liked the fact that the mutiny scene was underplayed and not hysterical.

We'll have to agree to disagree on that one. For me, this and the "P/T tiff" were the two weakest scenes.

> The actors seemed to be more in tune with their characters. They seemed more natural.

In general, I do agree.

> Yes, Kim's jokes and come-backs sucked. But they're supposed to! His character has a lame sense of humor.

I must disagree. Harry has often been very funny. And my point is, you can show lameness without actually BEING lame. Look at Doc--much of the time, his one-liners elicit groans from the crew, but the audience is ROTFL.

Done well, a "lame" line will draw attention to the character. Done poorly, a lame line draw attention to the writers.

> Only comment about P/T is about your characterization of their fight as the "same tired old tune." Uh, Jim, that was the point.

I agree--BUT. Again, they need to SHOW boredom without BEING boring. If they need to say onscreen, "oh no, not again," that's one thing. But if the audience is saying it, the scene is in trouble.

I knew what they were going for, but the execution put me off.

> And it seems like you completely missed on the foreshadowing of Extreme Risk by the painstick reference.

I intentionally don't pay much attention to future episodes, until we see the promo on TV. I want to take the episodes as they come. I prefer to be surprised. The Internet spoils us; we can know so much about an episode, months before it airs, that it's anticlimactic when it finally goes over the satellite.

In the software industry, I get more than I need of the Next Big Upgrade Just Around The Corner. I don't need it in my tv shows as well. :)

When that episode airs, I may well look back and say "they've been leading to this since 'Night', and in hindsight that scene works better." But I won't know until then.

> And I loved the dark lighting, both inside the ship and without. Creative use of light and shadow was a strength of this ep.

I agree completely. (I may need to do a rewrite to point out emphasize what I DID like.)

> As much as you criticized the ep, I was surprised by your *** out of four. You told us much more about what you disliked.

I wrote it, thinking 2.5 stars, but by the end I decided to be generous; there were more scenes I liked than I originally thought.

Thanks again--I really appreciate your comments! Jim (The Review Boy)

D'Alaire -- 19 Oct 1998, 8:59 PM

Jim W-- the Review Man!

Great to see you! (so to speak)

As for disagreeing (figures you'd respond just to hear me b*itch [snicker]), you're partially right. I didn't mind the P/T fight as much as you did. Naturally, like you, I'd like it to be razor edged or see them doing something much more ... productive, as long as the dialogue's sharp. Even so, I thought it served its many purposes well. You probably know what I'm getting at in that.

Actually, it was the Chuck and Tuvvy peace talks that I disagreed with, as I could understand your P/T dialogue opinion. But I'm dead as a stone just now for details. How about this? When I rewatch Night, I'll reread your review and see what I can't grumble about, okay?

What a joy to read your reviews again, Jim!

Bud-wis-er -- LOL!!! The images you put in my head! No wonder I can't think of griping! I'm still giggling about Kenny in you DOH review!

D'Alaire -- 19 Oct 1998, 9:07 PM

Bolts! I got disconnected! The reboot's a good thing, but it really screws me up sometimes!

I mean to say, I can understand your P/T dialogue opinion if you go spoiler free. Question is -- do you? That little fight did a lot of work, indeed.

I'm still dead on other details, though (no sleep does this to me). I'll get back to you on that one.

Review Boy -- 19 Oct 1998, 11:06 PM

P/T argument: the Review Boy take.

> I mean to say, I can understand your P/T dialogue opinion if you go spoiler free. Question is -- do you? That little fight did a lot of work, indeed.

I saw a mention of "Extreme Risk" (?) which, I think, will showcase Torres getting some death-defying kicks. But that's all I really know. I may spoil events within an episode, but I don't pay much attention to future episodes until I see a preview for it on TV. I want to be surprised.

I try to retell the episodes in "real time," without inserting too much hints of things to come. (The occasional "Foreshadowing--a valid literary technique" is an exception.) Sometimes, when I know how it ends, I may play up a nitpick in the early scenes so when the truth is revealed later, the reader may be as snookered as *I* was when I first watched it. :)

so--relating to the Torres/Paris argument, it will have more meaning in light of Extreme Risk--once it airs. I'll probably refer back to it at that time.

It still doesn't take away from my basic complaint, though. They key to portraying boredom effectively is to *not be boring while doing it*.

Here's my thought. They're all going stir-crazy. everyone responds differently. Tuvok meditates and mellows; Chakotay bears the burdens of leadership and full-time intermediary in Janeway's absence; Neelix develops a phobia of nothingness (which was a major lost opportunity, IMHO--great move, but they should have explored it further and tied it back to Mortal Coil) and frets over his failure to keep morale up; Harry looks for ways to keep busy. Doc is still singing (good), but otherwise not greatly changed. The argument dynamics are even subtly altered.

Meanwhile, Paris and Torres are doing the Same Old Thing. They sniped at each other out of habit last year. Paris was calling her behavior "boring" long ago. How many times did they ENJOY each others' company last year? Too often, their scenes involved quiet desperation. Miscommunication. Misunderstanding. Eagerness to walk away at the first sign of trouble. They're still fighting an uphill battle to stay together, it seems.

Here's what I would have done. Show them in his quarters or hers, having a good time. Laughing over dinner, or playing some Twister-like game that leaves them all tangled, reading Klingon romance novels to each other--something HAPPY (which would be a major change of pace for these two). Then we hear an alarm go off, and Torres stops in her tracks, and says her scheduled time in the coveted Holodeck has arrived. She tries to get him to come along, but he balks--it's pretty hairy stuff, painsticks and paragliding, etc. He expresses concern--and it's not the first time. She takes his head off, maybe mentioning his own Captain Proton "dangers" (volcano, killer robot, blondes, etc.) or its lameness or nonreality; at least her adrenaline is real. He watches her go and frowns with worry.

Neelix would have had to pass out elsewhere, but that's easily arranged.

Not enough time to do it all right? That was my point--they could have done a whole show just on the malaise factor. Imagine the ship going black--and "To Be Continued." :)

Anyway--just a thought. --Jim

D'Alaire -- 19 Oct 1998, 11:30 PM

Nice idea..., and one I'd like to have seen. True, it would've been cheerier leveling into disturbing. But do you
actually think they would have given them that much time to develop that scene (Miss Snarky coming out here)? I wish!

And even then, would a happy scene have served the boredom plotline? If that could be worked out, I'd take it. (And you've heard my rants enough, Jim, to know I'd prefer the happy side of things with nice sharp wit [verbal combat, if you will] thrown in for spice.)

Of course, I've also read as many spoilers as I could get my hands on--which unfortunately aren't many...But I won't go into that. I'll just say that I believe the argument served its purposes and worked for me, no matter what my preferred version would have been.

Review Boy -- 20 Oct 1998, 12:18 AM

> Nice Idea..., and one I'd like to have seen. True, it would've been cheerier leveling into disturbing. But do you actually think they would have given them that much time to develop that scene (Miss Snarky coming out here)? I wish!

Not in the episode as done. But as I said, I would have preferred this as a two-parter (perhaps midway into the season, after a rerun break) so they could expand on how the crew copes. Kind of like Year of Hell; the first part did a fantastic job with that. Most of the boredom (with expanded Janeway ruminations in particular) in part one, most of the action in part two.

I'm not sure how well it worked as a season premiere. The mail I've gotten so far has been pretty negative about "Night;" most thought 3 stars was too generous. I did like it a bit better after spending the whole weekend with it *G* but how many people are going to go to that much trouble? Most give it one full viewing--if that, given the competition at 9pm (8 central) on Wednesday nights.

> And even then, would a happy scene have served the boredom plotline?

I believe so, since it would have ended on that worrisome note. Others may disagree, though.

Not everyone devolved. Let's see. "Captain Proton" was fun--right up to Doc's intrusion, and later with Seven when the lights went out. Harry's clarinet piece was, I thought, a very positive reaction to their situation; he was creating, and clearly he'd spent much of the last two months on it to be that far along. Tuvok's meditation in Astrometrics with the "Kes lamp."

It wasn't ALL bleak--and I would expect there to be some people who would positively thrive in such an environment. (What was Groundhog Day, after all? Bill Murray starts out disgruntled and bitter, then suicidal, but at the end he'd made his peace with his dilemma, and learned good things and helped people and became a far better person.)

Consider how often Tom and B'Elanna last year bemoaned their conflicting schedules, their lack of time together? I can easily see their relationship both getting stronger, and running into new problems (Torres' destructive diversions), because they now have all the time in the world.

That's my take, anyway. I'm not on staff, so they may have different directions in mind, and this serves the future well, but as a one-at-a-time viewer I was very disappointed that P/T are still stuck in the "Vis a Vis" argument rut.

>If that could be worked out, I'd take it. (And you've heard my rants enough, Jim, to know I'd prefer the happy side of things with nice sharp wit [verbal combat, if you will] thrown in for spice.)

Yup, I do indeed. :)

D'Alaire -- 20 Oct 1998, 7:53 AM

Waaah, Jim!

It's difficult to argue with you when we agree...somewhat. ; P

Hmmm. I'll give it some time and another watching & reading. (I'm still deadsville on this end.) And what you wrote Joy about biting -- Waaah! I wish! Little wonder TPTB get so much grist on this end. They really ought to hire more fans for pitching.

The response to Night you've gotten was pretty negative? Hmm. Despite my nits, I still liked it.

Vickie T. -- 20 Oct 1998, 8:10 AM

And an excellent thought it is, Review Boy.

I agree completely with your comments here and in your review about the Torres and Paris relationship. Personally, I am sick and tired of their seemingly endless bickering. Talk about your dysfunctional relationships!

Also, I think you made a great point (in your review) about the general state of laxness on board Voyager during their passage through the void. I was appalled at all the scenes of the bridge with no more than one or two people stationed there. And Harry, sitting in the Captain's chair playing his clarinet while on duty?!? Sloppy, sloppy, sloppy writing and total loss of brain function on the part of TPTB. They were, after all, cruising along at warp speed through a region in which their sensor effectiveness was reduced due to the presence of theta radiation. Sounds like an "all hands at their post" situation to me.

Ruth -- 20 Oct 1998, 9:11 AM

I agree with both of you on this, Vickie and RB. I liked "Night" (in fact, Jim, it kind of surprises me that you've been getting mostly negative statements -- I think almost all of us here liked it). And I also liked the first half better than the second, for the reasons others have stated ... seeing the crew off duty, having characters act like they remember having a past together, yada yada.

But one thing I mentioned in my initial post on the episode, although I don't think I did a good job of articulating it, was that I didn't see how their trip through the "void" was all that different than what they'd been doing for the past four years. They've been traveling through space, trapped in an insular society, for the entire time. The main difference seemed to be a) there are no stars and pretty gaseous thingy (stop me if I get too technical) and b) there are no AOTW to take over the ships, or c) their subset, the Babe AOTW who will give Chak the thumbs up sign before stomping on his heart.

Furthermore, there is a reason why children are scared of the dark. It is SCARY. Except for Neelix, I didn't get the idea that the crew was frightened, just bored. I think long-term fright might have given the crew a better reason to fall apart than the boredom scenario. You're right, they should have been on full alert. The situation they were in was ripe for disaster. Harry should have been reprimanded for his actions on the bridge. The fact that Tuvok of all people allowed him to continue to play was almost inconceivable. Now that I think about it, it was all a little too much like, while the captain's away the crew will play.

That said, I loved Captain Proton. I've watched those scenes several times now (guess why), and that kind of goofy playfulness is tailor made for Tom Paris/RDM. The P/T scene was tiresome, but it was better than the one in Vis A Vis, IMHO. Still, the writers are certainly not turning them into Nick and Nora Charles. They're not even turning them into the Skipper and Gilligan.

RB, I only got to scan your review yesterday, I couldn't get it to download at home last night, and my computer isn't working all that well at work. I promise, however, to commit it fully to memory, as I have all your others. :-) I did want to say from my initial reading, I loved your description of Janeway in her first scene. Chunky Monkey and the Director's Cut of Titanic. LOL! You must have a lot of sisters, girlfriends, or ex-wives to understand the feminine psyche so completely.

Oh, and whether it was coerced or not, I think Vickie will agree with me that the description of Chakotay was right on the money!

Joy -- 19 Oct 1998, 10:52 PM

I'm a big fan of yours, RB. . . but (yeah, there had to be a but coming) after I read your review, I wondered if we had seen the same show. I wanted to read it again to get the specific points, but I can't seem to access your site tonight. Yep, the computer IS out to get me.

The best I can recall, almost everything you panned were the things I liked the most. To me, the first half made the episode. Also, Jim, uh, I've been wondering . . . are you trying to jump on the Paris-bashing bandwagon? I'm starting to suspect you've been secretly writing Holodoc's dialogue. ;-D

About your reviews in general, from the first day I logged on to Delta Blues, you've been the last word on Voyager to me. But frankly, I started to get a little confused when you wrote that brilliant review of Scientific Method (the review was almost as much fun as the show!), talked about a possible 5 stars, then said in the Nebula opinion polls that you hated it. Everyone is entitled to change their opinion, of course, but that is a pretty drastic turn around.

My opinion and a coupla bucks will get you a cup of cheap coffee. ;-)

PegN -- 20 Oct 1998, 8:58 AM

Hey Review Boy, I thought you were now...Review Man ever since the "smiling Katie" picture challenge subthread.

I haven't had a chance to read your review yet so I'm avoiding reading too much in this thread, but I'm greatly looking forward to it (whether or not I agree with your rating).

Fliteman -- 20 Oct 1998, 1:33 PM

Harry playing clarinet on the bridge...

We see before this Tuvoc meditating in Seven's stellar cartography room; She walks in & he walks out, almost (for a Vulcan) embarrassed. I would think a Vulcan, who's mind works faster & always smarter than a mere Human's would understand the need for the diversion; even (perhaps) while being alone on the bridge.

As disciplined as we may think Tuvie is, I think he is also more familiar with humanity than Spock seemed. Perhaps he reasoned that he'd rather see Harry practicing clarinet on the bridge when he walked in, than being asleep in the Captain's chair...

The longest submarine tours today are usually about 60 days; A few go longer, but not by much. A sub can go almost a year (I think it's about 11 months) on it's own; it makes oxygen & water for the crew out of seawater - and with vitamin supplements, canned & dried food, it's self-sustaining for quite awhile... So why limit a cruise to 60 or 70 days...? Because that's as long as the crew can go before getting numb to their surroundings - and start making mistakes.

They had less than an hour to introduce the fact that Voyager's crew could possibly be seeing & experiencing NOTHING but themselves for the next two years... Cabin fever is a difficult thing to portray, and even harder given the fact that they had to encounter two AOTW's, all within 40-some minutes of air time.

I was sorry that I had to keep reminding myself of this; and what Jim said - trying to show how bored they were without BEING boring is a hard task. But I still think this ep was better than most; the only real problem I had was Janeway jumping to the injured alien's side so quickly... If you can't trust the guy who rescued you, WHY whould you suddenly trust the guys who attacked you in the first place...??? A little more.... fact finding... woulda been nice here.

Ruth -- 20 Oct 1998, 5:55 PM

I think your submarine analogy is apt, Flite ... and it hits at what I think troubled me about the "cabin fever" part of the episode, and you're 100% right --- they only have 40+ minutes to convey the feeling of isolation, then break Kathryn out of her funk, show the crew mutiny, etc. And unlike Tom's seemingly sudden funk in Vis A Vis, this show provided a 53 day "backstory" if you will for the crew's ennui.

The more I think about it, my problem was less with this episode standing alone, than with the fact that they haven't hinted much at this kind of problem in a long time. Supposedly, the folks on your submarine have regular duties and face some kind of challenges, and they still have to surface periodically. After four years, the Voyager crew should have already faced some of these issues, whether or not they had stimulating duties now and then or not. Plus, there had to be long stretches where Tom didn't have anything more strenuous to do at the helm than keep an eye open for the next Stuckey's. (Of course, Voyager has the holodeck and other diversions open to them, and they aren't nearly as enclosed as they would be in a sub.)

I really did like this episode. I never did rank last year's episodes, but I would rank this one quite favorably to the better of last year's output. But I agree with someone who said that perhaps this should have been a two-parter -- yes, it would have been slower for the first hour, but they could have showed the crew entering the void and then slowly going crazy. I think I would have found the clarinet scene less jarring that way. Alternatively, I wish that in the past the show had shown some of the crew's boredom and isolation. Again, I realize this is a sci fi show, and you have to show action, but a lot of us have been clamoring to see the crew's "real life," and hopefully, this episode may be a start toward that.

Just one more idea. Somebody last year (maybe it was Vickie) brought up the fact that a lot of these people weren't Starfleet lifers. Their duty tours should have been up by now. That also might have been an interesting way to have Janeway confront the Caretaker issue. Rather than that "mutiny" at the end of the show where the crew refuses to leave her behind (and no one asked Red Shirt Fordie Steffen how *he* felt about that), it might have been interesting to see how Janeway would have reacted to "mutinous" grumblings from some of the enlisted crew.

Terry -- 20 Oct 1998, 6:59 PM

Flite already made a great case with the submarine analogy, Ruth and I can't improve on that. But I would want to add that Voyager's normal state is more like a surface ship. You can see outside, get some fresh air, make stops, get shore leave, see wildlife, etc. The experience in Night wasn't just montonous cabin fever, it was also claustrophobic one making everyone feel cut off completely from the universe.

Watching the stars fly by is like having the wind in your face. Except you can still spit straight ahead.

I disagree strongly with another point that Ruth and Vickie made about the relaxed state of duty on the bridge. Of course, we the viewers know something is about to happen but the characters shouldn't.

And you cannot keep a crew on full alert for two months, much less two years. Eventually, you get the result like the boy crying wolf. People starts losing their edge and a real crisis will be treated initially like another boring drill. If this weren't true, then every ship would be in a constant state of red alert.

And how differently would the crisis have been handled if a full watch was on the bridge? Tuvok and Harry did all that was possible to do from there.

Diane -- 21 Oct 1998, 7:57 PM

Not a Starry Starry Night (Finally my Night Episode). Well, at least I got it in before Drone.

So this is Star Trek's essesential episode. Today, while driving home from work, I heard on the radio that the play, "Waiting For Godot" was voted, by a British Actors Guild, as the best English language play of the 20th Century. For those of you who are not familiar with this play, it is about two men stranded in a waste land of nothingness. They talk, laugh, and get on each other's nerves. One leaves, then comes back. It is a great study of human actions when one has nothing to do but wait. SOUIND FAMILIAR! Of course, I chuckled when I heard this radio news. And, this is why I think this episode was great! Once again Star Trek takes classic literature, modernizes it and makes it relative to today. Ok, enough of the literature lecture.

Random Thoughts!

Thought the Malon vehicle looked like a floating oil tank truck.

Paris' comment at the end, "We're crossing the threshold!" Though, ok Braga, very funny. And, of course Paris would be the first to see the light, the man who has been thought a lot of darkness in his life, but has learned to see the light.

Felt Ethan Phillips did a fabulous job with his Neelix character, then the writers are giving him something to work with. Loved how they continued with his fears from Mortal Coil, which really stems from his fear of what is death. Great all around.

Kim is also being intelligently written. Can't say enough about that. Of course he made a few stupid comments, but he is suppose to do that. And, that's ok as long as there is Paris or Tuvok to banter back with him.

Chakotay was also written strongly. Beltran looked yummy, especially in that T shirt. Braga, we want more. He seemed to be one of the only people who was not affected by the darkness. He seemed to embrace it and do his best in it. Interesting. Wonder if this is a set-up for this year.

Glad to see the old B'Elanna back. I even like her fights with Paris. I know a lot of you don't but bear with my as I digress into my literary lecture for just a moment. The bantering between these two reminds me of Shakespeare's bickering lovers Betrice and Bennedict from "Much Ado About Nothing." Now, what I want to see is the Comedy that this fighting can produce. Now that TPTB have brought it back, I hope they run with it. I know they may be setting us up for a future serious episode, but I want to see more, in a funny way.

Then there is the Paris/Seven paring. I loved the idea of Paris giving Seven the name "Constance Goodheart." Remember Dick Tracy, his girlfriend's name was Tess Trueheart. Now, is Braga paying tribute to the comic strip or does he have something else in mind for future episodes (Ginny, I was thinking of your comments). Actually, Paris seems to be the one person to have gotten through to our Seven regarding her "softening" up. Her last comment of "Captain Proton to the rescue" was her first successful attempt at humor. It kind of reminded me of Shakespeare's "Taming Of The Shrew." Peturecho teaching Katherine how to "Play The Game" and be accepted by society. Oh, I am sorry, there I go again doing a literary reference. Well, I will continue with this thought.

The Bad AOW, the one that looked like a Hakoenian. Loved his name, "Imp." An intergalactic garbage man, a person with the lowest position in his society, an untouchable. A man who had power only in this little sector of the galaxy, and boy, did he abuse it. Besides, doesn't too much radiation leave a man nonfunctional?

Loved the setting, the great void, nothingness. What a way to show the themes of selfishness, self concentration. A great place for Imp to work, then a bad place for Janeway to be. Seems our fearless leader has the same problem that Neelix has. She needs to keep busy. I would love to see TPTB explore more of this side of Janeway, but from what I have read about the future episodes, this will not happen. Her self-pity will not be used again. BTW, some of you have expressed your opinions about clinical depression. I must admit that about 10 years ago I went through a two month depression after I
had lost my mother-in-law and my grandmother, all within a few months. I did what Janeway did, I hid from my friends. Made excuses not to attend parties, go see a show, have dinner with friends. I just felt like sitting at home and doing nothing. I finally went to a doctor who, after a few tests, told me I had developed extremely low blood sugars and this was putting me into a deeper funk. So, I know how Janeway felt. I also think Janeway suffers from not having any children (no those little ones from Threshold don't count). Her only purpose in life is her job. If there is no excitement or meaning, she
gets bored, thinks too much, and goes into a funk. I have often heard older people who's kids have flown the coup that they have to keep themselves busy or they would become depressed.

So, to sum up, a good NIGHT!

[Archivist note: My apologies if there are missing posts (like my wife saying, "Hey! Where's my posts?") or something extremely out of order. I had some technical difficulties this week]

Annie -- 25 Oct 1998, 6:48 PM

I liked this episode much better than Night. There were a few oddities in the episode, but for the most part, I enjoyed it. I also like the way TPTB are setting up future episodes (continuity, I love it). There's not a whole lot I can say now, most of you have seen the episode, and given great reviews, so I'll touch on just a few of my thoughts (maybe).

Some of the items you all find regarding the POLL amaze me. I think it would take me hours to find what you guys do. I must not be as creative minded.

My Review?

My biggest complaint was that the show was rushed. I can see this one as deserving to be a two -parter. Janeway was made to give One way too much access to Voyager and her crew in such a short amount of time. As horrifying, and fear inspiring as the Borg are, she didn't seem worried at all about a "29th century" Borg to have free reign of Voyager, gathering all the data he wanted on the ship and her crew. How would she know whether or not One would or wouldn't take all his assimilated information to the Borg. I agree that he needed to assimilate knowledge, but they could have been a little more selective about the information he was privy to. I also think I would like to have seen the episode later in the season. Thank goodness the actors were capable enough to pull the whole thing off.

I think Jeri Ryan was excellent in the episode. I really liked seeing her trying to get in touch with human emotions. The contrast of the practiced smile in the mirror at the opening of the show, and the genuine sad expression at the end was wonderful. Her reluctant "but real" attachment to One was touching. I loved the part where she instructed him to go to sickbay with Neelix, and his reluctance to go without her. Then her, realizing why he was reluctant, reassuring him that she would be along as soon as she could. That was definitely character building on Seven's behalf.

In reading some of the other responses to the episode, I wasn't disappointed to discover that some of those B'Elanna curmudgeons, are viewing the "crabhead" in a different light. She is lovely, isn't she. It is good to see her back to her old self, but I hope they don't over do it. I would hate to see her lose her vulnerability, and become a total "crabhead". I tell you people, she and Tom have NOT done "IT" yet! If they had "done IT", he would have been in that bed with her, and the Doc would have interrupted more than B'Elanna sleeping peacefully by herself. I know Tom isn't any different than you MAM's or YAM's, and you wouldn't let such a beauty sleep all alone if she was yours. Would you?

You know, I have always liked Janeway, but so far, with the two episodes we have seen, I don't much care for her. What are they doing with her! First, she's depressed and isolating herself from everyone, then she is giving a "future" Borg free reign on Voyager. I realize they allowed her to show a few moments of trepidation toward the Borg (and Seven), but it still didn't make much sense to me. She seems to be making really stupid decisions (which I agree with from what I have read from some of you). I have a feeling they are going to get to the Alpha Quadrant this year. I don't want them to quite yet darn it! I would like to see them get back home in the last season. Oh well, that's a whole other rant. I want Janeway back!

As far as the Doctor goes, with the monitor in B'Elanna's quarters, I would assume that only senior staff would have access like that (and only in extreme circumstances). Not that it's okay. I think it was a little far fetched myself. It was a total invasion of privacy. Look at the past. No one has ever invaded a crew members quarters like that. They have knocked on doors, asked the computer the status of the individual, but never has anyone ever invaded a persons privacy like the Doc did. Even though the scene was enjoyable for the male audience, they could have at least have had the Doc's voice come over the comm link instead of the video link, and had B'Elanna doing just the same things she was doing.

Why did Mulcahey (sp) not call Security as soon as he walked in the door? He was cute wasn't he? I don't think I have seen him before. Am I wrong? Why was the door to the Science Lab ajar when Tuvok and Seven got there with the security team? It's a mystery I think, because it closed behind Mulcahey.

Well, all in all I still liked the episode. I still think it should have been done in two parts, and later in the season. I think now, the Borg will be looking for Voyager even though One is dead. Can you imagine them forgetting One? I can't. I think the Borg will seek out and assimilate. By the way I loved the sphere instead of the cube. Where did the sphere come from? The future? The now?

Mrs. Mac -- 25 Oct 1998, 7:38 PM

This is going to be short. The clock says 8:22p but my body says 9:22p. My body is correct in saying that it's time for bed.

I really liked "Drone." Jeri Ryan's performance was especially good. The part I liked best is when One assisted B'Elanna in engineering. You could see the pride on Seven's face with just a small facial gesture. Very well done.

I read some of the other posts here. I don't have any problem with the drone being allowed to survive and roam the ship. There is no question in my mind that this entity deserved to live, especially when there is no reason to believe there was any danger. Janeway did throw up the caution flag. She also had a security team around One at all times. So I see nothing unethical or improper about Janeway's actions.

The shower scene was great even though I thought we weren't going to see it. UPN showed the second scene before the first scene so the episode was shown with the baby first and then the beginning sequence second. They really screwed up. Why they need a visual computer in the sonic shower is beyond me. Perhaps because B'Elanna was incapable of wearing a comm badge. ahem. Very funny. We should of had a contest to count the "I'm not a doctor I'm a ...." comments.

Overall, a great episode. My other favorite moments was One speaking to Janeway in her room (Delta Quad culinary). I cracked up when Janeway responded with giggles about how "sufficient" One was. I thought I saw her eyes glance down! Where was Ginny? The captain was excellent this episode.

My other favorite scene was when Seven told One that Voyager was her collective now. Good stuff.

This episode was a step up from "Night." So far so good!

I forgot to mention one thing about "Drone." There is a Strauss opera, Der Rosenkavalier, that has a long extended scene about the Marschallin contemplating her life. She is married and has a young lover. During this contemplation she realizes that she can no longer keep this young man because she is too old and he will eventually find a younger
woman (as it turns out, he does). The last scene has her very poignantly looking into a mirror at the reflection of a woman who has had a reality check and is in pain. The last scene with Seven looking in the mirror, in pain and having a reality check, reminded me of the Marschallin's scene.

Mike -- 26 Oct 1998, 11:09 AM

...only an opera buff like you would have picked up on that one, Mrs. Mac, that was an interesting tidbit you caught. BTW, are there ANY operas with happy endings to them ;^).

Did you notice how little respect the doc had for not only B'Elanna's privacy but Seven's privacy in this episode? First he walks in without warning on Seven while she's looking at herself in the mirror (she could have been getting dressed for all he knew), then he wakes up B'Elanna while she's stretched out in her naughty nightie ;^) and on her day to sleep late too, THEN he uses the video instead of just the audio right when B'Elanna is stepping into the shower (hubba, hubba). Talk about a nervy peeping Tom hologram :^).

You know, I think it's only fair that all the Voyager female leads get a nude shower scene this season. I believe in equality. Next week Kate then the week after that Seven should have a chance. Or, they could just do it all in one episode and have Kate, B'Elanna and Seven sharing a shower when Voyager is trying to conserve resources..hmmm, I wonder if Seven even gets her feet wet when she takes a shower, come to think of it, I wonder if she's ever even seen her feet? ;^) Mike (daydreaming again)

Mrs. Mac -- 26 Oct 1998, 11:40 AM

But Mikey! Everyone knows Der Rosenkavalier and the famous Marschallin scene! :)

Uh, count me out for the tri-shower scene although I expect Mac will be front and center fighting with the other YAMS for prime viewing territory. I expect you would be in that crowd too. If not, you're not healthy! Besides, Seven will be diverting all the water. Is Eric around? He would be praying for the shower scene followed by mud wrestling. :)

Good point. The doc was rather rude to the nude, wasn't he? He has always been the nosy type. Remember when he made a comment (two or three comments) about Tom to B'Elanna during Revulsion? She was ready to blast him a number of times. Also, the time when he tried to pump Seven for all sorts of information he couldn't get on his own. He really is a doc-ala-yenta.

Hmm. Happy opera endings? Why all the comedies of course! However, the happiest endings are the ones that come none-too-soon like anything by Phillip Glass, Monteverdi and Handel. (yawn - wake me when it's over).

Jules -- 1 Nov 1998, 5:14 AM

So, what did I think of "Night"? Here's the quick version: I loved it. It brought back that ensemble feel that I missed so much last year when the balance was all out of whack due to Roxann Dawson's pregnancy and the UPN suits plugging Seven for all she was worth. (I think that the two factors aren't necessarily unconnected, in hindsight. I'm pretty sure that some of the "all Seven, all the time" aspect of things was down to the fact that she was the obvious character to pick up the slack when B'Elanna effectively went MIA for half the season.) And "Night" not only featured all of the characters, and gave them all their moment in the sun, but better still, it was also consistent to their previous characterisation. There were no jarring notes or abrupt character changes, as there so often were last year.

But I digress. That was last year. Let's talk about "Night". Incidentally, I think I need to make some revisions to my Voyager City story, "Wrong Train to Federation City", where I had B'Elanna as the far-sighted one. After this episode, it's clear that the person with the best eyesight out of anyone on the senior staff, and quite possibly the entire crew, is actually Tom Paris. Well, I guess he does get to sit closest to the viewscreen :-)

Doubtless there are lots of bits that I've forgotten, but here goes:

Likes

• That billiard ball with a few land masses glued to it which opened the show. I thought I'd been sent the wrong tape for a minute...
• Spaceships with rivets!
• The way Harry winced when the blonde bimbo screamed. My theory is that Paris was trying to recruit Seven to the game because Harry sacked the original holocharacter and refused to continue unless her replacement could be guaranteed for a lower decibel count. As Seven undoubtedly thinks screaming is irrelevant, she's ideal.
• Seven's method of keeping the robot occupied. "I am Borg" and a quick yank on the power supply.
• Paris's claim that in playing the Captain Proton holoprogram, he and Harry were studying sociology. Yeah, right...

Hang on, there was an episode in there somewhere as well, wasn't there? Let me get Captain Proton out of my system, and I'll talk about that too.

• The way Tuvok's eyes rolled when Neelix suggested rotating the crew assignments to stave off boredom, and hinted yet again that he wouldn't mind a go at tactical. He's nothing if not persistent! Neelix's phobia of the void, and the fact that he tried to struggle on regardless. He also raised a good point. Why hasn't anybody replicated any curtains?
• Tuvok's "the view from my quarters has been less than stellar" comment. Tsk tsk, Tuvok? Was that a joke? I also like it that we saw him using his meditation lamp. Presumably at least some of those thoughts were for Kes.
• Paris having to figure out how to use a twentieth century torch when the blackout hits. And the fact that the void dwelling aliens have a very extreme reaction to having light directed in their faces, which makes sense if they live in darkness, more or less. I'm assuming that they do - at some point - encounter low level lighting rather than constant pitch black, since they do have eyes, react to light sources, and the Doctor refers to them as photosensitive rather than blind. Perhaps they just see on a different spectrum to the Voyager crew?
• Somebody says that they made a mistake in attacking Voyager out of ignorance, and apologises! That's got to be a first...

Pleasant Surprises

• Janeway's blue funk, given time to stop and think. If nothing else, it works as the perfect alibi for all of those strange and obsessive decisions that she made in season four, when she wasn't really that likeable a character any more. She's still not reverted to the Janeway I'd like to see, but I think I now have more of a handle on where Kate Mulgrew and TPTB are trying to take her.
• Action Kate, toting Betsy, when the occasion demanded it! I'm hoping that I'm right in reading into events that her problems haven't gone away entirely though, just because she's busy again. The underlying problem can't ever really go away until the day Voyager hits the Alpha Quadrant and her mission to get them home again is finally completed. So, I'm hoping to see more chinks in Kathryn Janeway's armour, but hopefully this season without the viewer having to do all the work in explaining them away.
• Chakotay holding the crew together in the Captain's absence. I like him best when he's being First Officer and Personnel Officer combined.
• The aliens. I'd pretty much expected that they'd be a token shootout to get in the way of the main plot, and was happy to see that they were actually necessary to that plot, as both a way of rousing the Captain from her introspection, the obligatory "Caretaker" parallel, and also as a quick way out of the void. Another two years off the journey!
• Finally, Tom gets to do some fancy flying that requires a pilot of his skills, dodging spatial charges with one engine down and another on the way. It's been a while. I was beginning to think that perhaps they could just point the ship at the Alpha Quadrant and engage autopilot. Or make do with the second best pilot. Or even Chakotay... although admittedly that's a bit of a stretch!

Dislikes

• No biggies, just a few minor quibbles over the means by which the plot's required resolution was brought about.
  The very end of Chakotay and Tuvok's discussion about the Captain's feelings of guilt. Up until then it was just two concerned friends. The final sentence made it mutiny. Would it have been so difficult to strike out "I'm going to need your support" and insert "We need to save her from herself" instead?
• Ditto the actual mutiny. Most of the scene played pretty well, but it was really begging for one unanswerable clincher of a line to justify Janeway's caving in to their refusal to let her sacrifice herself for them. She gave in much too easily, considering that all the important communication was non-verbal in that scene. I'd have liked to see it defused differently. And probably not on the bridge, which makes it too official.

Moments that will remain with me

• Tom Paris's half amazed, half disbelieving, wholly amused laugh on the bridge when Seven uttered her "Captain Proton to the rescue" line. Thud, as D'Alaire would say. I'm still getting flashbacks of that smile...

Jules -- 6 Nov 1998, 6:13 PM

A thought occurred to me after watching "Night"... And hearing Neelix's comment about replicating curtains to block out that nasty starless sky that was giving him panic attacks.

Well, other than the fact that I'm surprised nobody thought of it sooner. :-)

But I digress...

Who amongst Voyager's senior staff actually has quarters with a view? Janeway, obviously. We saw her gazing glumly out into the void only the other week. And if I remember correctly, Chakotay has as well. Tuvok certainly does, since he puts a candle in the window every night to light Kes's way home.

Sniff. Have another hankie, Eric.

But... that's not true of everybody else. If you think about it, it's quite likely that a lot of the quarters are inner cabins, and that it very much depended on your place in the pecking order when Voyager set out whether you got an window or not. I may be mistaken, but I'm pretty certain that I've never seen windows in Tom's cabin, for instance, nor Harry's either. I doubt that very junior, just out of the Academy ensigns rate an outside cabin. And I'm pretty sure that observers who've been convicted of treason would be assigned just about the worst quarters on the ship. And Tom obviously hasn't managed to get his quarters upgraded since. My guess is that Chakotay's in charge of the cabin assignments too. :-)

But... how come Neelix rates a view, when half the senior staff don't have one?

I can only think that when he and Kes came aboard they were assigned to guest quarters. Since any guest that a starship condescends to carry is generally a fairly important person, then the VIP rooms would obviously have windows. So, maybe Neelix just lucked out.

What do you reckon?

D'Alaire -- 6 Nov 1998, 7:14 PM

I think it was the lucky guest factor, too. I'd wondered about that for a long time, really. It had to be just luck of the draw.

Or maybe, when Tuvok first took Neelix for a place to bathe, he thought maybe a view would keep him better occupied. (Lame, but possible.)

As for the rest of the staff--no idea...

...Well, aside from the evil race called Budget, a non corporeal lifeform fighting the Yamblowups, a similar race who like big bright fires--and sap the Budget.

Of course, then there's the Commonness', who have been greatly affected by the Yamblowups, their cousins called Distraction, and yet another race called the Constipatedcontingent. When these guys get to wrangling, the Commonness' often are the ones to look a bit under the weather.

This is a great, unseen battle on Voyager, from which only a few of the crew seems to have avoided.

Jules -- 1 Nov 1998, 3:55 PM

I knew I'd forget something! Paris's "We're crossing the threshold" line had me helpless with laughter. Do you suppose Braga and Menosky put that one in deliberately, for just that effect, or was it accidental?

Crew check: no super evolution yet, and I've now downloaded the previews as far as In The Flesh. No baby salamanders visible either... :-)

Ginny -- 2 Nov 1998, 8:03 AM

I'm with you, Jules. That "threshold" line had to be an in-joke.

And if you thudded in NIGHT, wait until Tom goes all sincere and reproachful with B'Elanna in EXTREME RISK. We'll have to scrape you up with a spatula.

Jules -- 2 Nov 1998, 1:31 PM

"Sincere", you say? I can't wait. I've always thought that Tom does sincere particularly well. Reproachful, too. They're part of the character's stock in trade, along with the permanent childish sense of wonder at fun things, and the smart aleck mouth.

However, forewarned is forearmed. You can keep your spatula. :-)

Diane -- 2 Nov 1998, 11:17 AM

Jules, I caught the "Threshold" line also, in fact I caught it in the promo, but because of my hectic schedule the last few weeks, I didn't get to note it.

And, as Ginny says, wait until you see the scene P/T scene from "Extreme Risk." Read my review. RDM looks incredible. Man, you could tell something was wrong with B'Elanna, I would have hopped his bones right there. Then, as a few of us have noted, McNeill's acting is very focused this year. He acting seemed very natural, I was drawn in. Yep, you will need an industrial size spatula to get you off the floor.

Jules -- 2 Nov 1998, 2:32 PM

I only saw the promo yesterday, Diane. I saw all the video captures for it at Vidiot's site, but it took me until yesterday to stir myself and download and upgrade Quicktime to version 3 so that I could actually watch (and listen) to the preview clip itself.

Otherwise I'd have been rolling with laughter at that line weeks ago too...

Leonie -- 2 Nov 1998, 8:55 AM

Thanks for your thoughts Jules... If you've read the actual thread, you'll see that quite a few people agreed with you.

I missed the part about how good Tom looked though. My attentions on such matters were focused on some one else.

Jules -- 2 Nov 1998, 1:21 PM

Oh really? Who would that be, Leonie? You'll have to give me a few more clues, I think. :-)

Seriously though, I thought it was a good episode for just about everybody. (Well, maybe Ayala didn't get the chance to shine as much as I'd like, but you can't have everything.) And certainly Chakotay was in the mode I like to see him in best - both leader and follower simultaneously, nobody's lap dog, but the perfect second in command, confident in his own right. Too often he just gets trampled into the ground by the AOTW, or the Captain. I don't think Season Four did him any favours either.

I had had a sketchy read of the main thread before I posted my stuff, but was somewhat distracted by work at the time. I did figure out that the episode was received favourably by most people, but then I'd rather gathered that from the message headers while I was avoiding their contents! Plus, Roxanne told me that I'd be rather happier with this season's Janeway. But I only got the chance to go back and read the "Night" category properly last night. I wasn't sure how much I might be repeating other people's comments, but it's good to get a bit of feedback. Adding my thoughts a couple of weeks after the episode, I wasn't sure that I wouldn't just be posting old news into a void. (Or should that be "The Void"?)

But I knew that I'd probably be pretty safe for a response from D'Alaire if I mentioned Season Three uniforms. The trouble is, I can't remember if I did or not... :-)

D'Alaire -- 2 Nov 1998, 2:02 PM

That's all right, Jules. Whether you mentioned it or not (I think you did in the other thread waaaay back), I think I've gushed over the fact alone, if not the reality, enough.

Just in case...

Tommy's Back In Season Three Uniforms!!!

Sluuuurp!

This aside from ER, where Diane's right on the money, and I'd said it too in my review--something had to be seriously wrong with B'Elanna that she didn't pounce him then and there. (Sigh.) No, really, it was a very well-done scene.

Spatula? Ha! My TV's still drool-laden.

Diane -- 2 Nov 1998, 4:19 PM

Thanks, D'Alaire, aren't I always right? Especially when it comes to Our Darling Tom!

Geez, just thinking about that scene again makes my heart go THUMP, THUMP, THUMP.

Thud...Sob...Thud...Sob...&c. That scene, good as he looks, is painful to watch.

Waaaah! Poor B'Elanna!!! (And that's just that scene!)

Thud...sob...thud...sob...

TimHolden -- 3 Nov 1998, 2:17 AM

Tim Emerges from the void. Thanks for sending the tape Jules!

I have been in a bit of a void myself until it plopped onto my doormat. After reading some of the reviews and synopsis for Night I thought it all sounded a bit of a mish mash. When I watched it I was surprised how well all the many plots and sub plots hung together as a whole.

There is not much more I can add to the myriad of comments and reviews, but I will have a go!

Janeway's depression. This self questioning and depression is nothing new. In the very first Trek pilot Captain Chris Pike was close to breaking point. He was questioning his judgement after an away mission went seriously wrong and people got killed. Dr Piper sat him down and prescribed him a stiff drink! Janeway prescribed herself a phaser and started shooting! I am not sure which treatment is worse! Janeway's self sacrificing attitude for her crew was very Kirk like.

EXPLODING STARSHIP QUOTIENT! Far better than I expected, lots of phasers, photon torpedoes and big explosions. Lots of nice optical effects too.

There was plenty of character stuff too. Is seven developing a sarcastic sense of humour? "Captain Proton to the rescue!" after Tom had dodged some spatial charges! It was a nice touch.

Things that bugged me. If this had been Kirks crew, they would have been spending the time doing battle and emergency drills! If it had been Picards crew they would have been busy chomping through all those Gigaquads of data about the DQ. Dr Crusher would have put on a play, Data & O'Brien would have put on musical recitals. The Voyagers solutions were very insular and involved only small select groups. Talking of music, if I were Tuvok I would have shoved Harry's clarinet where the sun don't shine! His concerto was sooooo depressing!

The crew could have solved their depression by setting Harry loose, with his clarinet, and hunting him down with infeasibly large phasers. Did they learn nothing from the Hirogen about in flight entertainment!

Jules -- 3 Nov 1998, 5:52 PM

LOL, Tim! Good point about the crew's lack of initiative in finding things to do with their time. Me, I think I could probably have found twenty zillion things I desperately need to make catch-up time for, and they'd have whiled away a couple of years quite easily.

And the prospect of having half my duty shifts cancelled as well sounds very appealing!

It's a shocking lack of initiative. Doesn't anybody on that ship other than Tom Paris - and, I guess, Harry Kim - have any urge to do anything creative with their free time?

I guess that I can't blame Harry for writing his concerto in a minor key though, when the faces of everyone around him are tripping them up. And he was probably writing it on the bridge because Pablo Baytart in the next quarters had been round to complain about the noise again. Since there isn't anything other than the bridge, the briefing room and Janeway's ready room (currently unoccupied) on Deck 1, it was probably the ideal place for it.

But I do love your idea about Hirogen-style in flight entertainment! Just set Harry running, hand Janeway Betsy, and see if she can't be snapped out of her depression...

D'Alaire -- 3 Nov 1998, 7:22 AM

You are now one of us.
You are now Fifth Seasoned.
Congratulations, Tim!

And good point about the crew [not] being busy with something. Someone else mentioned it, but the way you put it made sense. I could see the other crews being more...creative somehow. Still, I don't know about TOS, but on TNG, at least there were families on board and the ship was much larger and suited to long-term stays.

On Voyager, they'd obviously had trouble finding creative ways to distract themselves, but with the prospect of not getting out in two years on a small ship and the captain holed up...hmm.

Here's another question--How do you think the DS9'er would have handled it? ; )

Top Ten Ways That The DSN Crew Would Have Handled Being In The Void
Leonie -- 3 Nov 1998, 8:50 AM

(In no particular Order)

TimHolden -- 3 Nov 1998, 11:00 AM

DS9 Hmmmmmm! D'Alaire

I deliberately did not mention DS9 as I have no idea how the crew would cope with it. Many of the DS9ers are not from a military background and do not have the discipline, sense of duty or have assigned duties to fall back on.

Like the Voyagers they are quite insular and stick to their own little groups. Can you imagine Worf & Kira going stir crazy! That is a scary thought!

I know that Sisko would be itching to get back and kick the Dominions A$$! ("There is much anger in him"). I think Odo & Kira would be able to keep each other suitably amused! (see Leonies TTL!).

The really interesting person would be Quark. How would he cope without the daily influx of suckers to swindle!

I have no firm answers. DS9 is very complex.

Tim

PS: Talking about Quark - he would have been proud of the Malon's wonderfully mercenary attitude - Stuff progress, I want PROFIT!