Demon

Mr. Mac. -- 6 May 1998, 9:22 PM

Great episode! Demon, severe thunderstorms, wife and cat in my lap, things couldn't be better. I think I'll go rent Halloween during the next thunderstorm!

Potsy scores 2 for 2! Swoosh!

Roxann back and in great form (and less of it too)!

Kim rocked however I couldn't help but feel that the words he spoke in the transporter were Wang's own words to the effect, "Make Harry less of a wimp."

Who wrote this episode?

Carol -- 6 May 1998, 9:30 PM

The writer was Ken Biller if I recall...

The man who's been mostly M.I.A during much of this year.

Mike D -- 6 May 1998, 10:25 PM

'Demon' was a hell of an episode... I agree with Mac, 'Demon' was great fun for a stormy night. I wouldn't say it was one of Voyager's best, but it certainly wasn't bad.

Likes:

1) Finally got to see something I always wanted: The crew settling down on a planet and colonizing it. Okay, so if you want to be picky, it's not really our crew and the planet's not really a paradise, but hey this is as close as we'll ever get to the crew settling down to set up house keeping ;^).

2) The writers are making a conscious effort to make Harry Dim less wimpy and it's working!

3) It's good to see the old Tom and Harry buddy chemistry again.

4) Finally got another chance to see Voyager land on a planet. Love those landing struts. Voyager really is a female - she's got great legs.

5) Kate was looking good again this week and was forceful in her dealings with the AOTW.

6) Liked Tom's "no sweat" pun to Harry when they were first exploring the demon planet.

7) Cool space suits. No pun intended :^).

Dislikes:

1) Seven doesn't listen to anybody these days. I'm used to her ignoring Kate, but this week she even ignored Chakotay when he told her to cut back on power. Once again the writers chose to have her defiance pay off. If not for our "hero", Voyager would never have found the fuel they needed. Once again 'wonder Borg' shows that Seven knows best (gag, choke, gag :^).

2) Doc was a little childish the way he wouldn't share his room and toys, don't you think?

3) Torres begging Chakotay to bring Seven along on the rescue mission because he said 'Cool heads' are needed and Seven's is the coolest. Give me a break, even B'Elanna is playing up to this one character, then when 'cool' Seven is on the planet with Chuck she is noticeably nervous in the strange environment, Chuck even tells her she's acting jumpy. So much for Seven's cool head.

4) The ending was way too abrupt. I wanted to see a little more of that duplicate crew on the planet. Geesh, all I got was a quick glimpse before the end credits. If you blinked you'd have missed it.

Too bad next week is going to be yet ANOTHER "Seven saves the crew" episode. Not too long ago I came across an old Voyager board friend of mine named Craig. I'd wondered what became of him. I met up with him at a DS9 site and he said he'd stopped watching Voy this season because he was sick of all the Seven hype and what it was doing to the show. I'm starting to see his point.

All in all, this week was fun and had a few neat surprises (like when Tom, minus his spacesuit, showed up to rescue Chakotay.)

Jim C -- 6 May 1998, 10:32 PM

You asked for it you got it...someone outside the Nebula has been reading and taking our wish lists to heart. The waning supply situation is addressed.

Great ENSEMBLE story.

Decisive Kate, less Seven.

O. Bleek, you asked for an interesting AOTW and they paid in spades, and there was no makeup required.

We got to hear the Doc sing again.

Confident Harry, where have they been hiding you?

Yay, B'Elanna's back and questioning Chuckles again (anyone notice the postpartum paunch?). I loved her request to have Seven accompany Chuckles and the pregnant (pardon the pun) pause before she explained it. Made me LOL thinking she was hoping the planet would do Seven in.

Good to see the friendly Paris and Harry again.

Drill instructor Neelix, giving as well as he was getting from the Doc.

"This is a sick-bay, not a flop house!" LOL

Top notch effects.

WOW, this was a really good one!

A few small holes and nits, but with this kind of quality I can overlook.

Is this disjointed or what? Sorry, I'm just excited.

ande -- 6 May 1998, 10:58 PM

The Planet from H*ll. Wow, two good episodes in a row. I'm beginning to think TPTB save all of the good ones for the end of the season.

Lots of good Tom and Harry stuff (please don't tell anyone that I actually enjoyed a 'Harry' episode). This one managed to have good crew interaction (no one did anything stupid or made any questionable decisions), some funny moments, and some neat-o special effects. I had only one main problem with the episode: The ending. This episode should now be considered the standard for abrupt Trek endings. Uhg, TPTB took the time to set up the episode and had great pacing through much of the it and then they rush through the ending. They don't do this on DS9 (well, every once in a blue moon), so I have a hard time understanding why they keep doing it on Voyager. Well, back to the Seven show next week.

Michelle -- 6 May 1998, 11:30 PM

Our Little Harry Has Grown Into A Man . . .And I really liked watching it happen. TPTB have been at the Nebula guys, can't you tell. All the fussin' about "Harry the Whiner" has paid off. Another crewMAN on Voyager.

What a great episode! I had to tape it so I could bake a cake for my son's birthday (don't tell anyone

. . . I'll deny it . . . I do not bake). My husband watched and told me I'd love it. He was right. His first insight was that Seven's environmental suit breastplate "was lit up very nicely" . . . no missing those highbeams (AHEM!!) .

Everyone did a nice job. I just love it when Voyager lands.

the HSC (Maureen) -- 7 May 1998, 12:47 AM

Y? because we liked it. This one was fun. Enjoyed seeing a confident Harry. Actually saw a contrast in how Harry's grown (and Tom hasn't). I mean, here's Harry stating his case clearly, with humor but not backing down. When Tom's got a point, he usually makes a bad joke or gets over-emotional. This is not a complaint--I prefer a less-than-perfect Tom. I also like seeing the friendship between those two without them being clones.

Definitely felt like TPTB have been reading our posts. I mean, the lines about Tom not being in shape! (Well, at least there weren't any comments about his hair!).

Some scary moments: Chakotay at the helm landing the ship.

Realizing that the Demonites learned to think from Harry and Tom.

The threat of Neelix breaking into song.

Best of all--NO SHUTTLECRAFT WERE HARMED IN THE MAKING OF THIS EPISODE.

O. Deus -- 7 May 1998, 2:25 AM

Hint to Chakotay: If Kim doesn't melt in 500 degree temperatures. He isn't human. No way to adapt to that without developing a whole new physiology involving scales and God knows what else. After repeatedly dealing with impersonators as recently as two episodes ago you'd think Voyager would learn to be suspicious of mild changes like that in members of the crew. Of course I could also ask how Paris and Kim survived for a few hours without any oxygen but that would be taking this nitpicking thing a little too far.

Mrs. Mac -- 7 May 1998, 7:05 AM

Demonic Thunder! HailStorm! Lightning! Nope, that was Long Island last night, not the Demon episode. After we coaxed the cat out from under the sofa we relaxed . . .

It was a dark and stormy night . . . Harry and Tom are on a Demon-class planet that isn't all that it seems. It lives . . . insert howling wind, eyes in the darkness, and Neelix naked for a complete mental picture of this planet.

A fun episode! All of the characters were in true form aside from B'Elanna being extra nice about Seven's "coolness" under pressure. I prefer to think that deep inside (that postpartum body) she was secretly wishing that Seven's nanobrain would melt under the intense heat. AND for all of the unnecessary chewing out Chakotay gave Torres all season she secretly wished his shoe-polished hair and tattoo would run down his face for the entire world to see. All kidding aside, it was genuinely nice to have Roxann back. Her character is a nice contrast to the others. Her strengths, weaknesses, and attitudes are very human, which is why I prefer this character over a less believable Borg.

Harry a Man? What happened to the drooling, insecure, 2 of 10? Or was it 3 of 9? 1 of 8? Well, it was so UNLIKE Harry that I groaned because I felt it was a deliberate attempt by the writers to buttress this sagging character. That's fine but do we have to have HARRY tell us that he's a big boy now? Why hasn't it happened naturally over the course of the seasons? If they had kept Harry growing since his early heroic days we would not have needed his lecture. Suddenly Harry is more of a man than Tom? Tom, who has volunteered (his blue-eyes-depending-on-what-he-wears) for everything else?

Thing I would have liked to have changed: Suddenly we are told that there are backup systems in the spacesuits. Of course, had we known that during "Day of Honor" we would not have felt that B'Elanna and Tom were in a near death peril. I would have liked something a bit more creative and less obvious. For instance, when the air runs out, why not have a spacesuit that releases a cryogenic gas that seals the suit and freezes the body so that it can possibly be recovered and revived later? Much cooler effect (pardon the pun). Just a thought.

For those of us very much in tune at the opera houses, it's difficult to listen to Picardo sing. However, it was a fun scene having Neelix and the doc trying to annoyingly one-up each another. Did anyone else notice that it looks like Phillips has shed a few pounds?

The special effects were marvelous. The Voyager looked like a little peanut on that planet! I liked the demon's pools! The mercurial effect of the liquid on B'Elanna's thumb - on the thumb of the character whose quick temperament matches the elements properties.

Sue_B -- 7 May 1998, 7:10 AM

Two thumbs Up Or one thumb sideways...If your Torres...(sorry, couldn't resist).

Nice touches:

The Captain's "now why didn't I think of that" response to the Bicycle comment. Set the tone for a "we know each other too well" episode.

Tom immediately picking up on Harry putting "the Vulcan master" in his place. We haven't seen this level of familiarity between these two for many moons.

Torres finding Chakotay and trying to join the away team. I missed her fire and this episode let us know she's back. Also liked that she wanted Seven to go -- not because she has a cool head but because Wunder-Borg is the most likely to pull her beloved's' hinny out of a sling. Pragmatism suits her.

Tom's anguish in sickbay..."I thought I was Tom Paris". He was our Tom enough to know he wasn't "our" Tom. Pretty unsettling.

Neelix has a blanky. It suits him...and why not?

Disappointments:

We really could have stood for a little P/T scene -- maybe at the end as the duplicates were looking up at the departing ship. You know B'Ellana would have consented to leave a dup if Tom was there.

I would have rather had Tuvok and Chakotay on the surface. Seven was there so that Seven could have screen time. Give it a rest.

The subplot...generosity in harsh circumstances was so-so. The Doctor certainly got put in his place by Neelix's final thank-you. Still, the Tuvok elimination of all personal items and the uncharitable nature of the Doc seems a bit over the top. For a serious crisis, they were all fairly chipper.

Those are my thoughts. In general I really liked the main story and the sub-plot didn't spoil it. I'm with everyone else, however, let's drop Wunder-Borging every episode.

Diane -- 7 May 1998, 7:27 AM

Demonic Pleasures. Are TPTB reading the Nebula? They have to be after viewing last night's episode. Kim's little speech in the turbolift was almost word for word taken from our discussions. His remarks about being green, haven't matured after being on the ship for 4 years, asserting himself, etc. Hooray! Finally, a second episode with a somewhat intelligently written Harry Kim. I hope TPTB keep it up.

And, how about Paris's comments about the bicycle and being out of shape? I burst out laughing when Paris made his comment about "when we get back, I promise I will get on that bicycle" just before passing out. Then there was Chakotay's comment to Seven about the Borg having not assimilated any Indian Scouts—Gordy lost it at that point. Lots and lots of inside fan jokes, kind of like last year's Worst Case Scenario. I really enjoyed them.

Feisty B'Elanna was back. Yea! Actually, Dawson looked great, considering she had had Emma only two or three weeks previous. I liked her recommending Seven to go on the mission. Hope TPTB develop a real friendship between these two next year. Star Trek always pairs men off as best friends: Harry and Tom, O'Brien and Bashier, Kirk and Scotty and Spock. It would be nice to see something close to, say, Thelma and Louise. Fan Fic anyone?

Captain Kate! Andy and Eric, you had to like her in this episode. She was written and acted "Captainly": strong, non-wavering, and, I think it has been a long time since she has been shown worried about her crew members (Harry and Tom). I like her this way.

Good comedy between the Doc and Neelix. I loved Picardo's "But's."

Great crew interaction. The Voyager crew was shown as a woven team, a "family" as Jeri Taylor puts it. It was one of the few episodes this year where no one was in conflict with anyone else, including with aliens. One of my complaints this year is that there has been too much emphasis on conflict, that's OK, but when overdone, it looses its effect.

Endings with a Twist! We have had two episodes in a row with twist endings. Is this what Braga meant? If it is, I want more.

Can you tell that I really enjoyed this show. It was fun, with some good dramatic tension, and most importantly, cohesively written and directed.

T'Racy -- 7 May 1998, 8:25 AM

Leaving a Legacy... I really enjoyed this episode!

From the fact that we are once again seeing that all is not well, all the time, with Voyager's systems (what is it running on half the time - bubble gum and shoe polish?); to the personal implications of

Voyager's leaving a cloned crew to thrive on a once lifeless planet.

I need to watch it again to catch some moments I'm certain I missed (how I hate the 9 0'clock slot - it's right at Ehlana's bedtime). But, all in all, I liked the character development, for what it's worth and however long it will last, and the shallow gratification of seeing Voyager land on a planet once again.

Vickie T. -- 7 May 1998, 8:37 AM

It's "The Tom and Harry Show"! Another good one! Like everyone else, I thought "Whoa! Have TPTB been checking out the CN?"

Thumbs up awards - Too many to list, here are a few:

Anson Williams - Let's get him back to do more episodes.

Love the "Tom and Harry Show"

I could hear all of my fellow Nebulites shouting NOOO! when Chakotay said, "Shall I take another shuttle down?" And THEN, when Janeway told him to land the ship, I could actually feel the disturbance in The Force from your reactions!

Chakotay's suggestion to the Doc that his program be shut down to save energy, Tom/Steth isn't the only one around who knows how to play the Doc.

The writers this week not only got the characters right (mostly), they also gave us a good story.

Thumbs down razzies:

Yeah, as some others pointed out, there were a variety of minor nits, but I'm of the opinion that those, in general, should be ignored. I usually only get bent out of shape about them when they are really blatant, in your face, or they just have sooo many that I can't ignore them.

There was only one scene that I have strongly negative feelings about and that was the early scene where Tuvok took Neelix's stuff away from him. I thought it was excessive, unnecessary and mean-spirited. Tuvok isn't really *supposed* to be a jerk, just a logical Vulcan.

I agree with the above comments that it should have been Tuvok with Chakotay on the planet instead of Seven. I classify it as "gratuitous use of Seven of Nine." I also thought it was stupid to have B'Elanna suggest to Chakotay that he take Seven along.

I also agree with Mike's(?) comment about Seven disregarding orders to keep the Astrometrics Lab running. I'm repeating myself and probably beating a dead horse, but I do not like the way we are continually being shown that Seven knows best and whenever she disregards orders it turns out that she was right.

Final comment (complaint?): I am saddened by what I perceive to be the demise of Chakotay's and B'Elanna's close friendship. In many earlier episodes of the show, they were shown to be close personal friends as well as colleagues and shipmates. They played hoverball together (reference to that and their friendship as recently as Unity) and demonstrated some warmth in their relationship. Lately, their interactions (limited as they have been) have been much more impersonal. In last night's episode, their interaction in the corridor lacked, IMHO, that touch of warmth that should have, again, IMHO, been there. BTW, it was great to see B'Elanna back, wasn't it?

My final appraisal: two thumbs up for Demons. BTW, How long do you think it took *Demon* Janeway and *Demon* Chakotay to get it on once they left The Ship of Just Good Friends? Fan-fic, indeed!

MEG -- 7 May 1998, 8:50 AM

Well, that was fun. . .in a comic-book sort of way. (And I speak as one who still has a box full of Silver Age comics in her basement, so I know what I'm talking about here.)

Seriously, the plot of "Demon" struck me as being pretty ordinary and predictable, especially after last week's episode. That didn't stop me from enjoying the show, however. It was fun to see our intrepid crew having a crisis that, for once, didn't involve attacking AOTWs -- just everyday problems brought on by their circumstances, like the fact that the nearest gas station is in the Alpha Quadrant. I've always suspected that, absent the need to manufacture weekly viewing excitement, life on Voyager would most closely resemble the famous description of life in military units at the front: hours of boredom interspersed with moments of sheer terror.

I enjoyed the banter in the dialogue and the suggestion of sometimes strained circumstances being met with bickering and humor: that seemed fairly realistic to me for a group of professionals dealing with a tough situation. And I liked the scenes between various pairings of the cast -- Tom and Harry, Chakotay and Janeway after he successfully lands the ship (hey, does this mean he gets his pilot's license back?), Chakotay and B'Elanna, Neelix with Tuvok and the Doctor, Janeway and B'Elanna working together to analyze a scientific problem. Best of all: Chakotay putting Seven the Omnipotent in her place over something as simple as following a set of footprints.

Was it just me, or did the sequence of the ship landing on the planet look a bit more realistic this time than it did in "The 37s" or "Basics"? The landing struts actually looked like they might almost be able to hold all that weight this time. And the scenes of the ship sinking slowly into the pool of silvery goo were cool. I *was* kind of disappointed that we didn't get to see more of the crew duplicates at the end. It would have been interesting to see interactions between the duplicates that suggested relationships slightly different from, or evolving from, the scenes we saw earlier among the crew.

I won't be watching next week's episode, and probably not the season ender either -- I've had all I can take of the focus on WonderBorg and her Amazing Nanoprobes for one season. I'm glad we had "Living Witness" and "Demon" to give me hope that there will be episodes I can watch next year.

Mike D -- 7 May 1998, 9:10 AM

Vickie, about clone J/C...

Vickie said:

"BTW, How long do you think it took *Demon* Janeway and *Demon* Chakotay to get it on once they left The Ship of Just Good Friends?"

I was thinking the same thing this morning on my way to work, Vickie! And wouldn't it have been a great last scene to show demon Kate and demon Chakotay taking each other's hand or looking into each other's eyes and smiling as Voyager and the real crew left(a kiss is too much to ask). Come on TPTB, you could have thrown us old die-hard J/C-ers that one little tiny crumb couldn't you? That last scene was way to rushed. They should have milked it. I felt cheated seeing the clone crew standing on the planet for just that one brief moment. They should have taken a minute and shown more.

I agree on every point in your review Vickie. BTW, Elaine and I did both say "OH, NO!" when we heard Chakotay was landing the ship. I'm sure we contributed to that "disturbance in The Force" that you detected ;^).

Eric -- 7 May 1998, 10:11 AM

Harry Kim's Demon. Now THAT'S more like it!

Finally Season Four gets it's Before and After! This is what Voyager should be every week! (Or at least every OTHER week) We had Janeway acting like a Captain (or at least faking well). We had the return of B'Elanna and :

THE REDEMPTION OF HARRY KIM!!! My GOD! TPTB should have put THAT in the teasers!!

This was a very good crew piece. Everyone working off of each other. This was the best Voyager this season, easily.

Good Demon :

1) Harry Kim's mea culpa, for all the bad acting he has done. My jaw hit the floor.

2) Seven of Nine being a smart ass. NOBODY does it better "NORMAL sensors would not have picked up THIS". Saved by the bell indeed :-)

3) The wicked cool goop. Loved it!

4) Voyager landing! Its been 4 years and that is STILL some cool FX.

5) B'Elanna's fingernail, who does her manicure?

Bad Demon:

1) Harry and Tom's doubles went to the Quenton Torintino school of acting! Switch to DeCafe guys!!

2) 500 degrees Kelvin would have melted the shuttle interiors!! Next time CLOSE the door gang!

And that's it! TWO very small gripes! What a great episode!

I give it an A. 9.5/10

Eric -- 7 May 1998, 10:31 AM

LOL!! My brother noticed that to!! He has started to watch the show this year (3 guesses why, and the first two don't count). When Seven shows up in her space suit he said "MY those blinking lights are showing off her best features aren't they". He then said he's not missing another episode. Seven picks up another loyal viewer :-)

Martha -- 7 May 1998, 10:32 AM

One and a half thumbs up. Another really enjoyable episode, they seem to really be hitting their stride. Hooray for Potsie!

There were really nice moments of crew interaction. The only one I really didn't like was the Tuvok-Neelix bit. I agree with SuzyQ (?) that Tuvok was gratuitously mean. How much space could a blanky on top of Neelix's body and a pillow under his head possibly take up?

I actually liked the little Seven-Chakotay interaction when she was caught disobeying again and he said "It isn't efficient Seven." Looks like they're realizing how to get Seven to do what they want. She doesn't have the training to snap to just because they said so and it looks like they are learning how to meet her need for efficiency. That said, sigh, again her disobedience was the right thing to do.

Hooray for Harry once again being the voice of the masses! Was it in the Omega Directive that he asked Seven "Isn't there anything you *can't* do?" It really does seem as if one or two PTB are listening to us all and our gripes. Let the new Harry continue, please oh please.

I thought the landing was great. In AVFTW: Voyager book, they explained that they weren't happy with the way the landing feet looked so they hid them behind shrubs and the like. I'm happy to see improvement.

I thought the Doctor's behaviour was very much in character. He is simply unused to having non-sick personnel around with any regularity. The sick-bay is, and always has been, his domain exclusively, of course he wouldn't want to share.

Was it completely my imagination or was Seven's suit more form fitting than we have come to expect from those suits?

SuzyQ -- 7 May 1998, 10:36 AM

SuzyQ's "Demons" Review: This episode was a great example of how to create a great premise and then bail out in the end when you've written yourself into a corner. This episode was very good, solid sci-fi for the first 45 minutes, and then went to h*ll in a handbasket in the final minute.

Before I get started on my rant, let me just say that I agree with most of you on what went right in this episode.

LIKES:

- More decisive, proactive Harry Kim

- Tom-Harry banter (a little forced, but I was just glad it was showcased again)

- Tuvok-Neelix banter (these two actors & characters have great chemistry; it's never forced)

- The storyline about dwindling supplies - I really liked seeing the crew have to do things like shack up together to conserve resources (wonder if Janeway or Chakotay shared their deluxe accommodations with anyone?;-))

- Return of arrogant Doc - he's been playing the Heroic Peac*ck for so many episodes, it was nice to see him get his feathers ruffled again. And, how appropriate that it be Neelix to not take "no" for answer. LOL!

- Chakotay dealing with crew disagreements - I like how the character is written to adjust his approach depending on who he is dealing with. With Doc, he's smooth and flattering, but firm. With B'Elanna, he's blunt. With Seven, he's direct and flippant. Hope the writers keep doing this because he shows a great sense of humor in dealing with everyone.

MAJOR DISLIKES:

- My Darling Tom's Mouth - Please, can't one writer have Tom say something witty, sharp or droll instead of cheesy? Doc and Tuvok always have great comeback lines, but many of Tom's quips are downright flat and lack intelligence. I picture a smart-*ss more along the lines of Hawkeye Pierce in M*A*S*H*, not Bart Simpson. Heck, even Bart comes up with better stuff in a half-hour than the bicycle idea and "No sweat." Ralph Malph on HAPPY DAYS came up with better stuff!

- The Ending - (pause, deep breath) I just want to know where all of those who complained about the rape aspect in "Retrospect" are at this moment. Hello? The AOTW blackmails the entire crew into handing over samples of their DNA to start a sentient race on their planet and no one blinks an eye. How is that any different to Kovin's alleged harvesting of nanoprobes against Seven's will in "Retrospect?"

I found the act of the AOTW equally offensive because it wasn't just clones they were attempting, it was an exact double of the person, right down to their memories. And, if they didn't know any better because they were newly sentient, Janeway should have put them in their place and told them they can't do that. What if some other poor ship should come along?

The crew of Voyager basically taught the AOTW that they can threaten other beings with bodily harm (or ship harm) and they'll get what they need to live and reproduce. Ho, boy - great first lesson for the newly sentient! Way to go, Voyager!

I can't even hold Janeway responsible because that whole ending starting with the ship sinking smells like Brannon Braga. Well, BB, it stinks! Putting Voyager in danger from the AOTW wasn't even necessary! It would have made a more compelling ending if Janeway had discovered what happened to Harry and Tom earlier, confronted both confused AOTW's and tried to figure a way to help them survive without compromising anyone's personal integrity. A whole host of ethical issues is entwined with cloning, and this would have been even more ethically complicated.

Finally, I was thoroughly confused in the end with the prospect of the liquid deuterium being the blood of the planet. Since that stuff is the source of sentience on the planet, did Voyager still take what they needed to power the ship? Well, they must have because nothing more was ever said about it. After seeing it move and replicate, just like a living being, it didn't feel right that the crew would take a bunch of the stuff and dump it into the warp core for power.

Maybe that was the trade agreement - the crew's DNA for deuterium. But, in that case, it seems as comparable to me as kidnapping little Naomi Wilder and ask for supplies in return. Lovely...

MISC COMMENTS:

- Did anyone else yell "NO!" when Chakotay was asked to land Voyager? I did; couldn't help it, it was a gut reaction. (g) I guess that successful landing makes up for all his mishaps with shuttlecraft...

- Nasty Tuvok, taking away Neelix's blanky and book. Actually, it was nice to see *one* crewmember with stuff made by his mother. And, a book! The last time I saw a real simulated-leather-covered book was on TNG. I love books! I'd hate to read novels from a PADD.

- Well, this certainly solves the J/C problem. We don't know if J or C agreed to give samples of their DNA, but if so, DopplegangerJ/C can exist on the planet while the real ones continue uninvolved on the ship. Same with Tom & B'Elanna and Harry/7 (shudder). It also seems like a bit of a jab to all those suggesting that the crew should settle down on a planet and start procreating. With this show, they can have their cake and eat it too.

All in all, it was a good first 47 minutes, and a thoroughly stinky last 3 minutes.

PegN -- 7 May 1998, 10:44 AM

Peg's Picks & Pans. Yea! Tom and Harry together again! I've missed them! Voyager and ensemble fan that I am, I have thoroughly resented having 48 of DD shoved down my throat this season to the detriment of, most notably, Chak,Tom and Harry. I've never disliked Harry, just the way he's been written, so it was a pleasant surprise to see him address and settle the *Harry problem* in the Turbolift. And, I feel the P/T storylines detracted from the friendships of Chak/Torres, Tom/Harry.

My other problem is with the doctor's treatment of Neelix & Co in this episode and his remark about Tom in "Living Witness". His character seemed petty and selfish when he didn't want Neelix using Sickbay as a *flop house*, but he had the grace to look properly ashamed when Neelix sincerely thanked him for his hospitality the next morning. His remark last week in "Living Witness" that the way the crew was portrayed in the Museum was grossly incorrect "except for Mr. Paris" was uncalled for and disrespectful. I do like the interaction and barbs between Tom and Doc, but it shouldn't go outside the ship. I've been taught in business that, yeah, you can fight among yourselves, but to the outside, you show unity. Plus, Tom is an officer, like most of the others, and deserves that respect (if only to the outside). End Rant.

P.S. Chakotay's tattoo looks darker too, doesn't it. Same brand of polish?

SuzyQ -- 7 May 1998, 10:47 AM

LOL, Maureen! Good points about...a newly sentient race learning how to act based on the Dynamic Duo's previous experiences. (shudder)

And, boy, do I wish Harry had come back with a zinger in private after Tom suggested he pedal Voyager back to the AQ...that would have been priceless!

PegN -- 7 May 1998, 10:49 AM

RE: Seven's suit....I noticed that too, Martha. I don't remember B'Elanna's fitting quite like that in "Day of Honor".

Oh, and about the backup life support in the suits, maybe after what happened to Tom and B'Elanna in DOH, they devised a backup system...all off camera, you know.

SuzyQ -- 7 May 1998, 10:57 AM

I like your idea about the space suits, Mrs. Mac....Since that was a nit I thought I shouldn't pick. I really *like* those suits. They're cool and show off Chakotay's backside much better than his standard issue uniform. ;-) (Did I really write that?) It was *so* unrealistic that the real Tom and Harry could survive for that long without oxygen. What life-support back-up system could possible preserve internal organs for that length of time without oxygen? The brain requires it or it begins to deteriorate instantly. Just wanted to say the freezing bit would have been both realistic and imaginative - very sci fi.

Diane -- 7 May 1998, 11:16 AM

Wasn't the Space Suite Backups developed at the same time Doc's backup module was developed. You mean you missed that episode. Wasn't it called "RETROFIT." It was Eric and Andy's favorite episode. The show where Seven showed Harry that she could do it all.

Vickie T. -- 7 May 1998, 11:26 AM

SuzyQ, you pervert? I can't believe you looked at Chakotay's butt in the space suit!

Well, OK, I admit it...so did I and I thought *exactly* the same thing: "Why are those space suits so tight? Oh well, who cares, because it sure does give me a nice view of Chak's butt!"

So glad to know I'm not the only one! :-)

SuzyQ -- 7 May 1998, 11:35 AM

I am NOT a pervert!...When Chak steps up to inspect the deserted shuttlecraft and turns around, he's in the perfect position for any red-blooded, heterosexual gal to Check Him Out! Right smack in the center of the screen. And, since his head is completely covered, where else would I look? (g)

BTW, I noticed that Chakotay is becoming the Close Talker of Voyager. Did you see how close he stood to 7 in the astrometrics lab? She was usually turned away from him and moving from console to console, but for such a large area, they were positioned extremely close.

leonie -- 7 May 1998, 12:09 PM

It's Harry and his sidekick Tom. I loved it.

You know that we are coming to the end of the season don't you, when you get all these good shows in a row.

Well Harry, it is about damn time you began to stick up for yourself, my mouth dropped lower than Tuvok's when he made that comment about the "Demon planets"

Wasn't someone just saying something about the wasted friction between the Doc and Neelix, well it's back, it was a hoot and then it was touching at the end when Neelix offered genuine hospitality to Doc in spite of what he received at his hand.

And Janeway. Well as Elton would put it, "The B----- is back" She would have mercilessly destroyed the planet's life form to save her own crew. Just this week I was watching, Phage and it was the opposite of what she did there, and she was more at ease with her decision. As some one said, having more experience of being captain alone in the DQ, she is getting more comfortable making tough decisions on her own.

I must admit, it was a really good testimony of the closeness of Tom and B'Elanna when she would have sent even Seven on the away mission instead of herself, to make sure that her sweetie was OK.

And did all you J/C fanatics see that warm touch that J gave to C at the conn after they landed on the planet, proving once again that the spark is there between the two.

The only thing that I thought was a little weak was the plot, a rehash of TNG's plots and kind of stretching too. I didn't believe it when Janeway actually considered leaving the DNA behind, isn't that kind of against ST laws or something. Isn't cloning not allowed in the Federation?

I can't wait for next week though.

SuzyQ -- 7 May 1998, 12:45 PM

OK, I'll accept that and even agree with you...

Martha wrote:

"The reason why I found the episode so disturbing was those parallels, that coupled with the ending seemed to have the theme that accusations shouldn't even be made as they, in and of themselves destroy people."

I completely agree because that's also the reason why I disliked the episode.

But why doesn't anybody else have a problem with the ending of this episode? I'm baffled because I see a real problem with the proposition that the Captain herded the crew into a shuttle bay, told them that they needed to hand over samples of their DNA so a doppelganger could be left on a planet in order to save the ship, and they did it without so much as a whimper!

What was created was not a clone for a clone is like an identical twin. Twins' personalities can still be different and their individuality is based on personal experience. These beings left on the planet had the same memories as Tom, Harry, etc. up until they were created. So *what* are these people? DoubleTom remembers the same bad relationship with Tom's father. DoubleB'Elanna remembers being abandoned by her father. *Who* are they?

I can accept they are similar to Tom Riker, but his presence was due to a transporter accident. These people are essentially the result of forced assault on the entire crew of Voyager, especially upon Tom and Harry.

I hate the way Janeway acquiesced in the end with almost a look of pity for the AOTW. Pity? She shouldn't have pity. She should have said, "Yes, you do deserve to live, but to take things from other beings while threatening them with destruction for not agreeing is not right. There is another way to do this and we'll help you find it. But, you cannot build *your* existence on the incapacitation of others. If you want to exist, you have to find a way to create that DNA yourself without taking it from others. Because if you can't, you will not be able to live for very long any way." (I can hear Kirk now...;-))

Who knows, they could have given the Liquids a strand of Kes' hair and there would be a bunch of Kes' running around now. (g) Sorry, Eric!

O. Bleek -- 7 May 1998, 1:13 PM

I guess I'm odd person out this time. I didn't like it. Just didn't. Found it boring/annoying. I haven't thought everything out yet but while I was watching, the episode just didn't draw me in.

Things I didn't like:

I GUESS it's good that they're trying to have Harry mature. But Garrett Wang is so utterly unappealing and his acting is so bad that for me it's better if they just leave him in the background.

Why did Voyager wait so long to find more deuterium? I mean, if things are THAT bad, realistically No one would have holodeck/replicator privileges, the holodoc would be shut down unless he's needed, etc.

Then, because they were in such dire need and it became an emergency, they were forced to LAND Voyager?! On a demon class planet!!!! Come on!!!

Tuvok and Neelix: They had previously developed a mutually respectful relationship. Why is Tuvok so demeaning to Neelix here? And what's with the constant "Mr. Vulcan" - is that a term of endearment? It wasn't logical to not allow Neelix's personal items. (Do blankies take up more energy?)

The Holodoc's not wanting crew in sickbay. Like I said, he should have been shut down during this time anyway.

B'Elanna asking Chakotay to take Seven along because of her cool head. What? Exsqueeze me? Are all the other crew members hotheads or not good enough for away missions? Even B'Elanna has turned into a Seven worshipper?

Chakotay's comment to Seven - "Footprints" , "I guess you didn't assimilate any Indian guides" (or whatever exactly it was.) This was silly.

The ending. Oh boy, the ending. Oh yeah, I want a clone of me out there in the universe on some weird planet. Sure. How generous of me. Doing this alien being a favor and all. And now that these aliens have the human form, how and what will they eat? Will they procreate? Will they become warlike? Why do they clone clothing that would burn up on their planet. What does taking on human form have to do with becoming sentient? Can't they be sentient in liquid form? Yadda, yadda, yadda!

Fliteman -- 7 May 1998, 2:53 PM

I really, really enjoyed this episode. I agree with everyone (well, 'cept for maybe O.Bleek...) about the good points... My favorite line: The Doc's, "Check out time!"

I had some problems... Harry & Tom's oxygen supply. (Already mentioned & 'nuff said.) Chuck volunteering to take a shuttle. (Mike, I know just what you mean 'bout that disturbance in the force...

I startled my wife by yelling, "NOOOO!" at the television...)

Now... to disagree with some of you. Janeway asked for volunteers to donate some DNA to the Demon-slime(Didn't she..?); In TNG, Riker was annoyed some of his DNA was taken without permission, but would everyone have the same view as he...? Harry & Tom were replicated complete w/memories, feelings, etc; they were surprised when they found out they weren't really them, too. By donating DNA, memories wouldn't be present; the new beings would be truly individual, IMHO... Some have stated about Seven being overused; but I thought to myself in this episode, she's not the leading lady here... Maybe I was enjoying the rest of the episode too much to notice.

Okay... that being said... I thought the ending was a tad weak; but, with the interaction in the crew, I can overlook that. I LIKED the Doc & Neelix dueling. I LIKED Chuckles' mention to the Doc "Maybe we should de-activate you..." Tom was put in his place from Harry - and Tuvok too; almost everyone got slapped from someone else in this episode... I LIKED that.

I agree with... I think it was Vickie... I think TPTB have been scanning the Coffee Nebula here... Now.. if we could just work out where the fans get a cash contribution for each episode of Voyager watched...(or is that pushing it..?)

O. Bleek -- 7 May 1998, 3:35 PM

Harry's explanation is a classic sign of bad...writing! For screenwriting, you are taught to SHOW, not EXPLAIN. But since the writers haven't shown anything but Harry being dim, they had to have him tell us what a big boy he is now. (Smirk, snicker, LOL, Guffaw!)

ande -- 7 May 1998, 5:02 PM

Well, I had a different take on... Several people have stated that they felt it was out of character for B'Elanna to suggest to Chukotay to take 7. My immediate impression was that if 7 went down to the planet with Chuck, then she wouldn't be on the ship getting in B'Elanna's way.

No one (of the posts that I have read yet) has mentioned the return of Vorik. I was surprised to see him there as I hadn't gotten any spoiler info stating that he would be in this episode. Vorik is for sure my favorite 'extra'. I hope that he continues to be in next year's shows even though his mom will no longer be there.

I like Mrs. Macs suggestion for the space suits. The 'backup' systems were not well thought out as the "Day of Honor" suits didn't seem to have any backups.

Martha -- 7 May 1998, 5:08 PM

There are plausible explanations for these complaints. I'll try and address them point by point-

1) Skin and Clothing. The dupes mimicked the whole deal, clothing, skin and all. The doctor said they had been modified down to a cellular level so they could obviously withstand the heat. Think of the dupes clothing like Odo's clothing-his shape shifting includes his "outerwear." The shuttlecraft interior should have been toast in my opinion.

2) Consent. When Janeway was ordering the radium (or whatever) bursts, it was clearly having a harmful effect on the duplicate Tom and Harry, it was implied that it was having a harmful effect on the goop. Janeway merely said she would talk to the crew and through Harry this was made known to the great puddle which stopped pulling Voyager deeper. Janeway saw that the bursts were having an effect and considered asking the crew if they wished to go along with being duplicated as a king of win-win situation for both the goop and Voyager. The crowd scene at the end didn't look at all like 145 people so obviously a lot, even the majority, of people didn't consent and that was ok. Janeway could have continued the bursts to get Voyager free so it wasn't a true duress situation.

3) Sentience. It seemed that the goop took on the complete form that it sampled, to the extent of its mass capabilities, like half of B'Elanna's thumb. If there was nothing living on the planet for them to replicate, there was no sentience for them to mimic. This wasn't a sentient puddle looking for form, this was a formless, mindless puddle mimicking what ever it could and *finally* mimicked something sentient.

4) Food. Since everyone was changed at the cellular level, and obviously the goop could survive on the planet, so can the duplicate crew.

5) Ethics. On one hand this could be said to violate the prime directive since this is obviously a pre-warp planet. On the other hand they weren't exactly leaving technology behind, just knowledge. I know, I know, this is a big deal but this was a species that was striving for sentience, and first contact had clearly occurred. So what if the duplicate crew members eventually make this a warp society demon class planet, I don't see the moral quandary.

SuzyQ -- 7 May 1998, 6:03 PM

Good points - you've convinced me, Martha,...on some of them. But, on others, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.

1) Skin/Clothing - Sold! I buy your explanation.

2) Consent - Still disagree.

3) Sentience - "This wasn't a sentient puddle looking for form, this was a formless, mindless puddle mimicking what ever it could and *finally* mimicked something sentient." HUH? If Great Puddle was mindless, all it should have done was mimic Harry and Tom's outer appearance, not their personalities. If Great Puddle can mimic sentience, it should already know how to BE sentient. I guess what I'm saying is sentience shouldn't be able to be mimicked by a completely insentient being. And, if I allow it the sci-fi benefit of the doubt, and say it can happen, I come to the conclusion that by achieving sentience through Harry and *becoming* Harry (aka Mr. Goody Two Shoes), GoopBoy and the Droplets knew what were doing and the difference between right and wrong because Harry certainly did. Hmmmm, maybe there was still some Species 8472 DNA in Harry and *that's* what GoopBoy picked up on. ;-)

4) Food - since you convinced me of #1, I can go with this explanation too.

5) Ethics - still disagree, but I wasn't really thinking about it from a PD point of view. I was mainly thinking about it from a single crewperson's standpoint of feeling pressured to carry out a captain's request and help an AOTW, while not wanting their DNA to be mimicked. You are correct that it is their choice to contribute their DNA, much like being a sperm or egg donor. But, I still maintain the choice she gave her crew to be ethically questionable. Other alternatives weren't even explored once the ship stopped sinking. If copying other races DNA is the only way they know how to be sentient, they are going to have some problems with survival down the road. It was a short-term solution.

OTOH, this could be the start of the DQ branch of the Founders...;-) Anyone else notice a resemblance during that quick special effect at the end?

Jason -- 7 May 1998, 6:32 PM

Voyager's Demon is catching up with it. "Demon" was a fine episode, that is, while solid, not quite in the high tier of Voyager episodes because of the premise.

Full credit goes to Kenneth Biller for making an episode with a slightly absurd premise work *at all*.

The most striking thing about this show for me was the Demon class planet. It was spectacularly well designed and handled. The scene of the crew members roaming around are almost movie quality and in fact reminded me of Star Trek II. Even when Chakotay and Seven reached an obvious "set piece", the vista behind them was of fantastic quality, so it never seemed like they were really standing on a quickly and cheaply constructed Planet Hell set. That said, while production design excelled this week, Foundation Imaging's shots of Voyager on the planet surface were surprisingly lackluster. In comparison to the shots of Voyager sitting on the planet's surface in "The 37s", these paled.

I was surprised to see how well the script moved. People roaming around a planet in suits for a large bulk of an episode doesn't sound promising in premise, but the first two acts in particular moved by well by intercutting what was going on in the planet with what was going on on Voyager.

The Doctor/Neelix scenes were well written and showed a great deal of chemistry. Ethan Phillips is doing wonders with Neelix these days, weaving gold out of small scenes. (Remember "Unforgettable"? Well, I know most of you wish you didn't.)

Harry Kim is showed marked signs of improvement in this episode, however the references to Kim being weak in the past seemed too much like a direct message from the writers to the viewers saying

"Hey, we know Harry Kim sucked in the past, too! But we're trying to fix it!"

The show was also dragged down by the fifth act where there were a number of flaws (one of them having the initials G.W. but I feel bad criticizing after seeing a few signs of improvement). Anyway, that nameless person sort of ruined some lines and his delivery made the nature of the silver blood aliens needlessly confusing. Other problems with this scene include the fact that the plot took a really, really silly turn at this point.

As a result, the deuterium issue is never addressed (though the fact Voyager does take off at the end suggests it was resolved) but after being so important to the rest of the story, it deserved to be mentioned at the end.

It was nice to see Torres' full body again. :-)

Vorik? May I ask why? This is the second episode this season where he's been around to serve no point whatsoever. I'm not complaining, but he should be given something significant every once in a while.

"Demons" has demons, but for all of it's problems, it manages to be a solid episode.

Carol -- 7 May 1998, 7:12 PM

My first thought when I read the spoilers for this episode was that the ending of the episode was for all those people out there who -- at the end of the series run -- want Voyager to not get home but colonize a planet! Seems TPTB decided to have it both ways with this episode.

And in regards to J/C -- well seeing them (or at least the clones of them) finally together doesn't seem too much to have asked for, but I guess they've left that to fanfic; as usual :-).

O. Bleek -- 7 May 1998, 7:17 PM

You're right Ande! I totally forgot. About Vorik's appearance. It was one bright spot in the episode for me. I was just complaining about how crew members never get to be guest stars. And while Vorik's small appearance wasn't really a guest starring appearance, it was nice to see another crew member. We've gotten the feeling that there's only 7 people and one holodoc on the whole ship!

PegN -- 7 May 1998, 7:25 PM

I gotta go along with Carol on this one, Andy... I watch Voyager for the ensemble cast (yes, darlingest Tom in particular, although Chax ain't hard on the eyes either), but I don't like the way some of the other characters have suffered this year, from Janeway to Chax, to Tom to Harry, *and* B'Elanna, as a matter of fact.

I'm picking up multiple OD's on Seven from this thread. She's a good character and Jeri's portrayal is just fine, but this isn't supposed to be Jeri and *those other guys*.

I didn't watch TOS until it was in syndication (and only because my younger brother watched it every evening). TNG was good but I didn't make it a point to watch or tape it and I've only had a passing interest in DS9. So what I'm trying to say (in a rambling, repetitively redundant kind of way) if I'm only so-so about the characters or one character who is in the spotlight to the near exclusion or damage of the others (and let's face it, both Harry and Janeway have suffered damage with Seven), I'm not going to make it a point to watch like I have since Season 1. I think others on this board and other boards reflect at least some of that feeling. That's it, okay, I'm done.

Roxanne -- 7 May 1998, 9:49 PM

Everything that I could say... has been said. I liked this one. It showed Captain Kate as captain, Chakotay as first officer, Tuvok as security officer, Kim as science officer, etc.

I just have one question:

If the new life form has the crew's memories, are we going to see them work to overcome the atmosphere of the planet and get to the Alpha Quadrant?

Vickie T. -- 7 May 1998, 9-pm-something

Meant to post this earlier...but I got completely sidetracked by that lengthy discussion of Chakotay's butt. We really *are* an intellectual bunch, aren't we? :-)

As much as I enjoyed Demons, I also felt short-changed by the ending. Wouldn't it have been wonderful to have seen a little interaction between Voyager Janeway and Demon Janeway? I keep thinking of all those TOS endings, where Kirk carried on some profound and deeply thoughtful exchange of philosophy with his AOTW. As some others have pointed out, there were some serious issues here, the nature of sentient beings and cloning, for examples. And, like Mike said, wouldn't you think TPTB could throw us J/Cers a little itty, teeny, tiny bone and show demon Janeway and demon Chakotay making some kind of connection as they watched the ship take off? Something to suggest that they were starting off, together, to explore their new lives and lead the settlement of their new community?

Well, enough of that rant. Demons is another show that falls into the "I could make it soo much better if they would just let me re-write 5 stinkin' minutes of the episode" category. But I still liked it!

Terry -- 7 May 1998, 11:10 PM

Demon strangely unappealing. Ken Biller completes the fourth season with only three disappointing episodes. Lisa Klink writes almost twice as many scripts including the excellent Message in a Bottle. And she gets fired!

I was strangely unmoved by Demon. I liked the new assertive Harry and the interaction between Tom and Harry in the early part of the episode. But the episode went quickly downhill from the point at which the two collapsed in the cave.

It was very good to see Harry's assertiveness in the staff meeting and his explanation to Tom in the turbolift. To me, it revealed the writers' confession that they had poorly developed Kim's character over the last few years but that they intended to remedy that. And better yet, instead of making just Harry tougher, they were showing a reason for it.

I really, really, really hate that the writers never let an opportunity go by without pumping up Seven at the expense of a cheap shot at Janeway and the crew. Of course, the astrometric sensors shouldn't have been shut off. But why did the writers make Janeway give such a foolish order and then show Chakotay up by shoving Seven's success in his face just as he lecturing her. Unlike some past events, this one was completely gratuitous as it did nothing to further the plot.

But the ep had many problems. Basically it just didn't excite me. The story seemed to lack focus and real drama. The acting seemed to be lackluster all around. And the writing was just weak.

Andre Bormanis developed the story idea for Demon. He has been the science advisor for Trek for years. So why was the technobabble in this ep so confused and inconsistent? Since when is deuterium the primary fuel of Voyager? In the past, it has been only the fuel for thrusters.

And a long-time peeve of mine with Trek - orbits? If you put a ship into an orbit outside of the planet's atmosphere, no extra fuel has to be expended for a long, long time. Okay, it happened on TOS too but it's still stupid.

BTW, continuity or lack thereof. No one had ever mentioned a fuel shortage before. And never will again.

And there were the usual stupid command decisions by Janeway. Usually taken very quickly without any real thought. And wrong.

1.Voyager needs to find new fuel sources so Janeway orders the long-range astrometric sensors turned off. Stupid.

2.The first attempt to obtain the deuterium by long-range transport fails so Janeway immediately wants to leave. Stupid.

3. Paris and Kim are a little late. Does Janeway wait or send another shuttle? No, she immediately decides to land the whole dang ship without their best pilot. Sheer idiocy. I estimate no more than three minutes from "They're late." to "We're down."

4. Something's seriously wrong with Harry and Tom so let's just beam them aboard without a quarantine. Didn't you watch Alien, Kate? Ripley is ashamed of you.

5. First Janeway somehow can't see that the silver blood duplications don't harm the originals. Then she does see it but find nothing at all disturbing about letting an alien fluid create duplicates of the entire crew, complete with memories. Why did the silver blood want dups of everyone? Wouldn't just a male and female do? And this all decided and/or ignored in less than three minutes.

Biller seemed to confuse Seven's scientific and exotic engineering ability and B'Elanna's engineering process and duties. The job of mining and using the deuterium fuel should be the chief engineer's job. Torres should have been in the transporter room scene with the explosion and the later surface excursions. OTOH, Seven should been with Janeway when she was studying the alien duplicate's blood. And that scene with B'Elanna asking to go on the away mission with Chakotay was unnecessary and lame.

Shawnster -- 8 May 1998, 1:30 AM

Deuterium and Dilithium...Warp physics 101.

A starship travels through warp by means of a matter/anti-matter explosion.

Matter is provided by Deuterium, an isotope of Helium.

Anti-matter is provide by anti-helium particles.

Matter and anti-matter are injected into the matter/anti-matter injectors. These two fuel streams are focused on the dilithium crystal. When these two streams meet at the focus of the crystal, they explode and release a plasma stream. This plasma stream is vented through the warp nacelles and provides warp power.

I hope all of you took notes, there will be a test.

Shawnster (who really doesn't have way too much time on his hands)

Shawnster -- 8 May 1998, 1:35 AM

I liked it! A very enjoyable episode. No, not one of the best but definitely far above several others we saw in this episode.

I don't know if I thought the whole "Harry is a man" bit forced or not but I did wonder if this was reaction to fan feedback. I just hope they continue this. Knowing the creators and writers, this was just a fluke and Harry will be back to his old, lame self again in no time.

I was glad to see the blue alert back when they landed the ship. I'd noticed this missing the last time they did it.

I do have a few questions though but I'll post them in another thread.

Shawnster -- 8 May 1998, 1:42 AM

Neelix ship and other questions: Here are a couple of questions I had while watching "Demons":

1. What happened to Neelix ship? The last I remember, Voyager was carrying it in their shuttle bay. Did they lose it (I seem to recall an episode where it was mentioned but can't seem to remember what happened) Couldn't they have used Neelix ship to fly ahead and scout out supplies of deuterium? I know, would have made too much sense.

2. The aliens reminded me of another Trek episode but I can't put my finger on it. I'm thinking TNG but I'm not sure of course they reminded me of....

3. Changlings. Could these aliens be related to the changlings in the Gamma Quadrant. Both exist naturally in liquid form, both seem to be communal in existence, one theory postulated on DS9 is that all the changlings in the great link are really one being, not many minds swirling around. It's true this alien stated before contacting Tom and Harry, it was just instinctual awareness but, what frame of reference does it have? Before encountering Voyager and her crew, the alien had never contacted another living entity. How would a human be if it had never had any contact with another living organism, animal or plant, intelligent or not? They really wouldn't know what was conscious and what was instinctual because they would have no frame of reference.

Things that make you go hmmm...

T'Racy -- 8 May 1998, 8:10 AM

Wrooooonnnggg, Terry. I always read your reviews. Heck, I've been so busy lately that I often read your reviews before I get the opportunity to write my own (in fact, I still haven't written a review of Demons, just a quick note).

I find your reviews to be some of the most well thought-out and sensible on this board (even when I don't agree with what you've said).

Vickie T. -- 8 May 1998, 8:11 AM

Oddly enough, I won't disagree...with your criticisms of Demons, Terry, even though I enjoyed the show. Obviously, I should never seek work as a film critic, because I find that if I like a particular episode, for whatever reasons, I'm perfectly willing to overlook or ignore many little or even a few big problems. That is, at least until people like you bring them up!:-) OTOH, if a show turns me off for one reason or another, those little problems drive me absolutely nuts.

Mike D -- 8 May 1998, 1:32 PM

Terry and Andy, about the clones...I'll have to watch the ending again, but I'm pretty sure you guys are off-base thinking that Janeway "ordered" or told the crew to be replicated against their will. If I remember correctly she said she was going to "ask" the crew or something like that. Kate was not going to order them. I also don't think it's fair to compare this case to what happened in TNG. In the TNG episode the clones were from "stolen" DNA without permission. In this episode Kate was running out of time and looking for a way to save her ship and crew from destruction(sinking in the goo). Even under that kind of pressure.

Janeway was going to ask her crew not force them. BTW, the demon copies were not exact duplicates since the doc was able to detect a difference in their blood chemistry and they could live in an atmosphere deadly to us. Besides, what's the big deal? It's been said that imitation is the greatest form of flattery, and I agree. I wouldn't mind a copy of me somewhere, as long as he didn't try to replace me. Can you imagine two Mikes in the world ;^).

Andy, I really like you buddy, but your comments like "Just one more reason to hate Kate. Like I needed one." were unnecessary, especially since your statement about Kate "ordering" the crew was from a wrong assumption you made. Can you please give the Janeway "hate" comments a rest for awhile. I know I complain about your favorite character (Seven) getting to much screen time, but I never say I "hate" her. In fact I like Seven, I just want to see less of her.

I guess it shouldn't bother me, but it does. Maybe it's this darn allergy season (sniffle) :^).

Eric -- 8 May 1998, 1:49 PM

Sorry Andy, I agree with Mike here...Janeway had all the power here. Remember she was firing into the Goo collective (and hurting them a lot). Remember Goo Kim was losing his shape. Janeway could have wasted them and just left. And yes she *asked* the crew to provide samples, she did not *order* them to.

That said, Janeway still proved she was a moron when she told Seven to shut down the sensors! Duh!!! Lets just look out a window!! maybe we will see some gas floating by! :-)

Thank goodness the crew has Seven to keep them alive ;-P

Mike D -- 8 May 1998, 1:58 PM

Geesh, Eric, you got my hopes up... thinking you were FINALLY being fair to Kate, then you dashed them to pieces with your second paragraph (that means the second section of your words, after the line space ;^).

Oh well, when a donkey flies I guess you can't blame it for not staying in the air very long ;^).

Mr. Mac. -- 8 May 1998, 5:40 PM

Absolutely agree with you, Big Mike. No way did Janeway order the crew to provide DNA. It was optional. I'm sure she would have met with the crew and explained the situation. After that she would have given a Janeway speech:

"As you know, we are going everything possible to reach home but it may never happen within our lifetimes. This is an opportunity for your images and memories to live on . . ."

Diane -- 8 May 1998, 5:57 PM

The Janeway Demon Option. I just watched Demon again (while waiting for Gordy to return home, he's two hours late).

Janeway told the "other" Kim, I will talk to my crew. Then asks that the crew be assembled in a cargo bay. So, it was up to each individual crew member. And think, it could be a story for a future Star Trek, or even a future Voyager. Could even involve a Borg story. It will certainly inspire Fanfic.

But, I do wish the ending showed J/C standing together and Paris standing behind B'Lanna with his hands on her shoulders, all looking up at the ship as she ascends. That's Potsie's big blunder with this episode. Only MHO.

D'Alaire -- 9 May 1998, 8:18 PM

RE: The Janeway Demon Option. Allo--I'm a bit new, and have been looking in from time to time. But Diane, your idea pasted the picture so clearly in my mind, I had to finally speak.

Re: the emotional payoff at the end of Demons--Agreed. It would have been nice to see more specific members of the crew looking up as the ship left. Certainly, such a thing can be sappily done, but...well, sometimes a touch of sap is a satisfying thing.

If TPTB could include Harry's monologue about his coming to his prime (an unnecessary gesture, for it was easy enough to see his development without explanation), they might have allowed a peek at what would be. I had thought of it, too. It was nice to see I wasn't alone. They had set up the payoff, particularly on the P/T side of things--But Tom and B'Elanna didn't have a moment together in the show. (I had that same needle in my side when I saw "Random Thoughts.") Certainly they shouldn't be joined at the hip because they have a relationship, but I felt I had been prepared for a little more--A simple shot of them together (and, yes, the others, too) at the end would have done nicely.

Yes, the fanfic should be interesting. I'm curious to see it. Ta!

Roxanne -- 9 May 1998, 4:52 PM

Good points - you've convinced me, Martha,...

----SuzyQ WROTE----

...on some of them. But, on others, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.

1) Skin/Clothing - Sold! I buy your explanation.

2) Consent - Still disagree.

If Great Puddle can mimic sentience, it should already know how to BE sentient. I guess what I'm saying is sentience shouldn't be able to be mimicked by a completely unsentient being. And, if I allow it the sci-fi benefit of the doubt, and say it can happen, I come to the conclusion that by achieving sentience through Harry and *becoming* Harry (aka Mr. Goody Two Shoes), GoopBoy and the Droplets knew what were doing and the difference between right and wrong because Harry certainly did.

Hmmmm, maybe there was still some Species 8472 DNA in Harry and *that's* what GoopBoy picked up on. ;-)

4) Food - since you convinced me of #1, I can go with this explanation too.

OTOH, this could be the start of the DQ branch of the Founders...;-) Anyone else notice a resemblance during that quick special effect at the end?

SuzyQ

----END PREVIOUS MESSAGE----

You know, SuzyQ, I've been giving a lot of thought to your sentience problem. What I am about to say may be wrong, and if it is, then I wish someone would tell me as it has been a fair number of years since basic biology.

If as some evolutionists theorize all life sprang from a premordial stew, (we know that the writers of Star Trek believe that as one of the TNG episodes where Picard is old and then young. Best of Both Worlds?) then when did sentience happen for life on this planet? I think this is probably what the writers were doing here, just speeding it up by a few millenia, but then this is a new life form, so I guess they can disregard the rules a little.

I know that I have stepped on a few creationists toes with this, and that wasn't my point, so if I did hurt some feelings here, I'm sorry. The debate is not whether creation or evolution was the way of creation, but how the writers perceive it to be.

Martha -- 10 May 1998, 10:53 AM

Andy's got a point. In reading the posts for "Demon Planet" IMHO, I thought there was just an over reaction to Seven's presence.

I think this came about because she has been so heavily featured but in this past episode she really had no bigger part than any other. I thought this was a really well done ensemble piece, with really great interaction all around and yet her scenes were still heavily criticized.

I'm one of the ones who has come down on the side of liking Seven, and thinking her addition was a good thing for Voyager, but didn't want to see "all Seven, all the time." In Demon Planet, she was criticized for 1-not obeying orders to shut down the astrometrics lab, then being right about it; 2-B'Ellana's requesting her "cool head" accompany Chakotay on the rescue mission; 3-Not having the promised "cool head" and being jumpy on the planet. BTW, I don't remember who said what about these issues, I'm just remembering the general themes.

Regarding not shutting down the astrometrics lab, and then being right about it, we *always* see B'Elanna doing some last second engineering marvel after she has been ordered to stop, and she frequently succeeds. Rather than being seen as disobedient and arrogant this is seen as self confident and skilled.

2 & 3: B'Elanna's request that Seven accompany Chakotay and her subsequent jumpiness. Seven certainly has been portrayed as a "wonder Borg" and if your loved one were in trouble, wouldn't you want the absolutely most capable person to help get them out? We've all been complaining that she has been shown to be too perfect, well I think it's that perfection that B'Ellana wanted going after her Tommy. Then, when Seven turns out to be less than perfect, being jumpy and not having the common sense to look down for footprints, instead of giving a collective "whoopee" for her flaws, she gets criticized for not being perfect. Sheesh.

If this is an example of how TPTB can include Seven as part of the ensemble I say "keep it up." I think TPTB did damage to Seven's character by pushing her so hard, to the extent that even where she is part of the team, she is criticized for her actions.

Ginny -- 10 May 1998, 1:41 PM

Stop the presses! Alert the President! Call out the Nat'l Guard! It's a **gasp** good Harry Kim episode. Harry has character. Harry has personality. Harry is, is, is interesting, for heaven's sake! Garrett Wang's agent must have finally had that little talk with TPTB. Either that, or he took an executive hostage.

I realize my comments on DEMON are so late as to almost be pointless, but I still feel compelled to make them. Please note that I have not read anyone else's review yet (which is not my usual MO), so forgive me if I repeat, at length, what has already been posted. BTW I really enjoyed this episode.

GRIPES

--Just one really, but it's a biggie. It seems to me that we have a major prime directive issue here that isn't even given the usual Voyager lip service. The Demon lifeform goes from Silly Putty straight to enlightened Federation society in a matter of moments, thus skipping all those "normal" cultural developments with which the PD is supposed to prevent interference. By replicating the Voyager crew, complete with individual memories, the Demon culture has not only passed "Go" and collected $200, but also warp and transporter technology, a host of cultural traditions, secular and religious, and a dress code. Can you say cultural contamination?

GRATIFYING BITS

--Ladies and gentlemen, I give you Ken Biller--still the King of Clever Voyager Dialogue. Write some more, Ken, write some more.

--Tom and Harry, together again. I have always loved the interplay between RDM and Wang. Why we haven't had more of it this season, I'll never understand. These two cutie-pies have more chemistry than Dupont (and certainly more than RDM and Dawson or Wang and Ryan).

And as an indication that I've been reading entirely too much slash, when the Holodoc said to Tom and Harry, "Either we find a way to treat your condition, or you'll have to stay behind.", I immediately thought, "Uh-oh. I know how this story ends."

--Three cheers to Chakotay for being a real first officer. He was almost interesting. And did anyone else think that having Tom come and pull Chakotay up from the precipice mirrored the rescue in CARETAKER? I kept waiting for Tom to make some smart-aleck remark in reference to it, but he never did. Although "Don't tell me a big, tough guy like you is afraid of a little poisoned atmosphere." was pretty good.

--Ensemble episodes--I love 'em! Everyone was featured in some significant way, and the characterizations were pretty good. The scenes with Neelix and the Holodoc were nicely done (Wasn't the doctor being a selfish twit?), and I liked the fact that Neelix's essential goodness got the last word.

I thought Seven was funnier here than she has been in a quite awhile. Cranky and sardonic works for her.

I liked the fact that B'Elanna expresses some genuine, impassioned concern for Tom and Harry's predicament. What I liked even better was that, when Chakotay jerks her back this time, she doesn't sulk or fume--she comes up with a reasonable counter-suggestion. Although who would ever have thought that that suggestion would have been Seven of Nine?

--I found a 47! I found a 47! The containers in Seven's sample case were numbered 83, 758, and 16. Add it up--8+3+7+5+8+16=47.

--Good lines this episode:

Chakotay:

"I guess you never assimilated any Indian scouts."

Harry:

"That's why I'm volunteering my good buddy Tom to go with me."

"I've fought the Borg, been transformed into an alien, helped defeat the Hirogen--hell, I've

even come back from the dead."

Tom:

"It's been a wild ride."

And my favorite exchange, which just has to be an inside joke:

Tom: "Have you put on weight?"

Harry: "You're just out of shape."

Mr. Mac. -- 10 May 1998, 2:21 PM

Jerking B'Elanna around. Since I probably read the episode comments more than anyone (afterall, I correct the spelling, format the paragraphs, and remove any insults about the archivist), I can tell you, G'Inny, that your comments about "Demon" were unique! Your commentary was a good read as usual.

About B'Elanna being jerked around by Chakotay. Frankly, I'm tired of it. He doesn't jerk Seven around (who needs a good jerk), he doesn't jerk Harry around. In fact, he seemed to be a jerk around B'Elanna all season except when he had to tell her, "Ding, Dong the Maquis are dead."

B'Elanna saved more butts this season than Chakotay by a long shot. He should kiss her feet instead of dressing her down for little reason.

Terry -- 10 May 1998, 2:24 PM

Seven in Demon. I have no problem with the amount of air time that Seven had in Demon or about B'Elanna asking for her presence on the away team (although frankly Tuvok appears to be the better choice). I do have a problem with the opening astrogation scene.

As I stated in my initial Demon comments, I felt that the writers were taking another pot shot at Janeway by unnecessarily setting up a situation to make Seven look good at the expense of Janeway (and Chakotay). First, the decision to keep the astrometics lab operating and searching for a fuel source is quite obviously the right one. Janeway's command was the equivalent of driving down the highway nearly out of gas, and throwing away the only map with gas stations marked in order to lighten the load. Second, Seven's refusal of this order really affected the plot of the episode not at all; it was superfluous.

You do make a good point about others (including Torres) refusing to obey orders to stop doing something and getting it to work at the last second. But I detect a difference here. Those other situations are always life-and-death situations in which the officer giving the desist order is concerned for the safety of the crew. And in the past, the other members of the crew were often shown to be wrong to disobey Janeway's orders.

There was nothing vital about keeping the lab going; Seven just disagree with the decision and disobeyed it. That is getting old. Just because the writers give her a slamdunk, doesn't make it more pleasant to watch.

If they are going to make Seven consistently make all of the right decisions and Janeway all of the stupid ones, then they should put Seven in charge. I can't appreciate a show about a ship lead by a bumbling captain being bailed out by a rebel in the crew, at least not in this format. That's just not entertainment to me.

Ginny -- 10 May 1998, 2:34 PM

Well, *I'm* not convinced, SuzyQ. I still think there's a grievous violation of the Prime Directive going on here. The replication of Harry and Tom was an unfortunate accident. And I understand Kathryn's reticence to leave them alone on the planet (despite all the slash fiction that might result). But knowledge is exactly that to which the Prime Directive attempts to limit pre-warp cultures' esposure. Otherwise, all those past Starfleet encounters with pre-warp cultures wouldn't have had to be done so surreptitiously as they were on TOS and TNG. It's the awareness of other, philosophically different, more technologically advanced cultures and the effect that that awareness has on the development of a pre-warp culture that is at issue. And Kathryn completely disregarded the PD when she allowed the AOTW to blackmail her into allowing the crew to be replicated. She should have blown up the ship first.

As an aside, I don't buy the crew giving consent, either. I don't think many, if any, of the crew members would have permitted themselves to be duplicated and left on the planet. I know I wouldn't.

Mr. Mac. -- 10 May 1998, 2:43 PM

Borg strength? Certainly as a Borg she was strong, but have I missed a scene since her humanization where she exhibited any unusual amount of physical strength?

Ruth -- 10 May 1998, 4:12 PM

Is it hot in here, or is it just me? My comments are also late, because the tape quality of the episode was so bad, I had trouble watching it. With all the troubles others have had getting VOYAGER at all, I am grateful that we have a local UPN stations, but it is one of those local, low power stations that cable stations are required to show, and the reception is terrible. Luckily, VOYAGER comes on twice here, and if I'm lucky between Wednesday and Sunday I can piece together an entire episode. Anyhow, I finally decided to finish it this afternoon, rather than wait on tonight's airing. I'll just comment on a couple of things I've seen others bring up. First let me say that except for the ending, I really liked the episode.

1. Harry's "conversion" was great, but the fact that TPTB had to insert a scene that basically said, "Listen up, people! We're not going to make Harry a doofus anymore!", bothered me somewhat. I thought the scene on the elevator was expository, and did nothing to forward the plot, but then I thought -- well, if they didn't do it, and all of a sudden just started writing a new Harry that no one noticed, we probably would have spent a lot of time pointing that out as well.

2. Martha is correct, I think, that a lot of the negative reaction towards Seven in this episode is based on backlash from prior episodes. Except for that first scene, she was pretty much a team player in this one, and created a couple of good humor moments with Chakotay. BUT, that scene at the beginning was totally unnecessary, and seemed designed, once again, to show that Seven is smarter than anyone else on the ship. They could have written it so that she discovered the Demon planet while obeying Janeway's orders to search for new energy sources, with absolutely no difference in the rest of the story.

3. I thought Janeway's decision to go away from the planet after the transporter snafu was also designed to make her look bad at another character's expense. Why didn't she ask for any ideas before deciding they were going to immediately leave their best chance for fuel? The only reason I could see was so that Harry could stand up and make his suggestion. But I think it was unnecessary; he and Tuvok could have disagreed and Harry could have acted confident and mature, without having Janeway make what appeared to be an off the cuff decision. I guess the idea is that the planet was so deadly that it was seen as the only option; but then later she decides to land the ship on the planet so that doesn't seem right either.

4. As I said, apart from these things, I liked the episode, at least until the end. I liked the ensemble moments, especially those between Harry and Tom. I agree with whoever said, why didn't they just shut the doctor down as long as no one was sick if they were desperately short of energy. As for the cloning, it did seem that although Tom and Harry initially felt they were the real things, within a short amount of time their allegiance switched to the planet and not the ship. Still, in what seemed to be another off the cuff decision, Janeway agreed to have her people cloned. I do believe that she sought their agreement off camera, but I would think that in actuality this would be a BIG decision to make, and would take much soul searching. (and after reading Ginny's review, not to mention the Prime Directive thingy). But once again, I think they looked at the clock and said, oops, the episode is over, let's end it quick.

All opinions and writings reproduced in these pages are copyright © their authors. The Coffee Nebula and any text or original artwork relating to its site design is copyright © Jules Langley 1997-2010, based on images, concepts and characters from the television series Star Trek: Voyager. Star Trek and all of its associated trademarks are TM, ® and © Paramount Pictures. Other shows are © their respective production companies/networks. It is not the intention of this page to attempt to infringe or supersede those copyrights in any way.