Living Witness

O. Deus -- 29 Apr 1998, 10:32 PM

Living Witness = Holocaust ? Well just to throw a hand grenade into the audience.

While I was in Washington about a month ago I stopped by the Holocaust museum and it had a bit of resemblance to the museum in the episode down to the statue, the artifacts and the multimedia movies suggest the recreations...

Now to add the terms War Criminal and Genocide, both of which appeared in the episode, we have a genocide museum, the Nazi like attire of the Voyager crew and revisionist history by the people who claim they are victims but are really the aggressors...

Just wondering if Braga is trying to say something about the Holocaust here ?

Marie -- 30 Apr 1998, 12:46 AM

Living Witness = Holocaust ? Well, I was wondering about that myself, as I watched the show. There are certainly some allusions to the Nazi-Jew situation, but I don't think that Braga & company were trying to say the Holocaust never happened and the Jews started it anyway. Rather, I think this is the kind of episode TOS might have done, where it took up a socially relevant issue, attempted to look at both sides of the problem, and move beyond the problem to a peaceful solution.

Revisionist historians and examples of re-interpreting history have been discussed quite a bit in recent years, even by the media. The controversy became public when certain historians attempted to rewrite the Holocaust, arguing either that it never happened, or not to the extent claimed by the majority of historians. The writing and interpretation of history was also brought to the forefront in relation to the massacre at Tiannenman Square. Chinese officials have interpreted those events in a very different way from the West, and Chinese students now learn their country's official version.

I think the show was trying to look at how events come to be interpreted *and* misinterpreted in history, and that sometimes, it's very difficult to say who's version of events is correct, and who is at fault in a long and difficult struggle. In the case of the two races in LIVING WITNESS, (I've already forgotten both their names), the subordinate race has clearly suffered oppression and prejudice. The dominant race was most eager to find justification for their prejudices when Holodoc's back-up program was activated. They were jumped at the chance to rewrite history, while history was what the subordinate race held on to in their struggle for equality.

If you look at this episode from the perspective of the Holocaust, then you would have to say that looking at the past and remembering history is of the utmost importance. And that's certainly true. We need to learn from the past in order to avoid repeating its tragedies.

But what about struggles like those between the Serbs and Croats, and the many other wars between different ethnic groups all over the world? Many of those struggles revolve around hatreds and conflicts centuries old--conflicts whose origins can't even be traced. In those cases, trying to assert one version of history over another, over who is right and wrong, is bound to be self-defeating and inaccurate. In situations like that, the possibility for peace begins in acknowledging that both sides have done wrong, and what matters isn't how the conflict arose in the past, but in stopping hatred and death today.

And that is exactly the kind of solution TOS would have offered. Personally, I thought that, for once, TPTB wrote a TOS-worthy episode.

Mr. Mac. -- 29 Apr 1998, 9:39 PM

Living Witness:

"Janeway to Engineering."

(pause)

"B'Elanna respond!"

"Aaaaaaaaah!!!!! Get this horsehead out of me!!!!!!!!"

The doctor reflecting on B'Elanna Torres:

"Intelligent, beautiful, and a chip on her shoulder the size of a coffee horsehead nebula."

Great episode. I loved Mistress Janeway! The black gloves! "Take him to the chamber!"

Chakotay looked like a ... well, a Neanderthal. A Neanderthal with fishlips. Tuvok sneering?

Eric -- 29 Apr 1998, 9:48 PM

What did I just Witness?? Sure it was a nice story. And, yes, it was cool seeing Mirror Alternate Voyager. But what did it have to do with OUR crew? I could buy Worst Case Scenario cuz that had something to do with our story, but this episode did not. That wasn't OUR Holodoc, that was a back-up. Those were not OUR heroes, just recreations. HoloDoc wasn't even a Witness in the end, just a exhibit.

So what did it mean? In the bottom line all it had to offer was cool turrets on Voyager, and the ATTACK BORG!! I give it a B-, or 8/10.

Cool Beans :

HoloDoc was ON in this one! A great performance.

Those turrets on Voyager WERE very nice...

Evil Janeway, I think Kate likes being bad, it's the only time she seems awake.

Evil Harry, wow! What a difference a change of attitude makes!

Evil Tuvok, I like that cold sneer :-)

Seven of Nine's ATTACK BORG!! YES!! YES!!!

Lame Parts :

It means nothing. This wasn't a Voyager episode.

The needless return of the, UGH, Kazon!!

So the Historian made a program good enough to mimic Voyager's computers? How?? Why???

And where were OUR crew PTB?

One last thing. Do you think Kes should have been here? I think this was more her type of show. I could just see her saying, "This is NOT right", "This is not our timeline". Something cool like that.

So am I all alone here? I can't wait to see what the rest of you think.

PegN -- 29 Apr 1998, 10:05 PM

Heaven, I'm in Heaven. First, my Tommy in *black leather gloves*. Oh baby! (I have some like that, only they're not *leather* and they don't have fingers, but.... that's another subject). Then!...........my UPN affiliate does something right! An interview with no, not the overexposed Jeri LR, but ROBBIE McNeill (he's so cute). He says his kids have his action figure but I bet they don't have as much fun with it as I did in Vegas.

Anyway, about the show. I was laughing during the first few minutes. I loved Evil Janeway and then Chax with the whole side of his face tattooed (that or the shoe polish dripped). I'll bet it was fun for the cast to be bad guys, however, Nammy's and my question is: where, realistically, would this leave Doc? He wouldn't be on next week's show if this really happened, because his program was *stolen* and the crew went on without him. Am I making sense here?

Mike D -- 29 Apr 1998, 10:34 PM

'Living Witness' was a gem... Just finished watching 'Living Witness'; I thought it was excellent. First let me comment on a few of the more superficial aspects of the story I liked. I thought that the evil black-gloved Kate was very attractive. Katie should adopt that short sexy hairstyle on a permanent basis. It sure beats the frumpy pageboy look she's been sporting lately. Yeah, I know. I usually say I like long wavy hair like Kes had before she left, but the short hair really looked good on Kate. It really highlighted her high cheekbones and other attractive facial features (sigh). I know many of you will probably disagree, tough, that's my opinion ;^).

I also liked finding out that it is possible (or will be possible) to make backup copies of the Doc's holo matrix. Many of us have wondered about this in the past. It would seem this ability to make backups was not possible in 'Scorpion' when the Doc worried about being sacrificed if his matrix needed to be destroyed. It also implies that the doctor can not be destroyed as long as he can be restored to his last backup. In 'Living Witness' the Doctor we were watching was a backup, the original Doctor continued on with the crew and their journey.

Besides how great Kate looked there was much more to commend this entry in the series. Like I said, I was very impressed by this episode. I'll remember it as one of the most imaginative Voyager contributions to date. While watching it I was reminded of 'Distant Origin' and 'Remember', two of my other favorites . I thought that this episode made an interesting companion piece to those other two fine stories. All three dealt with how history can be distorted in order to hide the truth, either deliberately or through misinterpretation. In 'Distant Origin' the ending was very negative with the Voth leaders breaking the scientist (Gagen) who discovered the truth about their past. They preferred to suppress the truth and let ignorance triumph under the banner of indisputable doctrine . In 'Remember' the truth was revealed, but only through the guilt of a dying woman who passed it on to B'Elanna. 'Remember' only implied, at the end, that the truth about the genocide would finally be revealed to the people. What I liked about 'Living Witness' was that the positive ending clearly showed that revealing the truth could lead to enlightenment for a society. The other two episodes were well done, but left something lacking at the end. I was concerned in the last ten minutes of 'Living Witness' that the doctor would succeed in convincing the historian to destroy his program. If the historian had done that in order to continue hiding the truth and preserve the stability of the society, it would have been too much like the ending of 'Distant Origin'. Instead I was pleasantly surprised when the Doctor was convinced to "live on" and uncover the truth about what really happened. The final scene revealing that the truth eventually led to a unified and harmonious society was the icing on the cake for me. It was also nice to hear that the backup Doc got to lead a notable life as surgical chancellor and later continued his quest to the Alpha Quad. The backup Doc was going to find out the truth about Voyager and his beloved crew's final fate.

Bravo Voyager.

Riley -- 30 Apr 1998, 12:24 AM

My Comments & Some Quotes. To start with, I am becoming very unhappy with the deceptive commercials being used to promote the show. I keep hoping they will get better, but they never do. :(

I'm sure the crew had fun acting out their aggressive nature, but it was certainly out of character. Janeway's hair was butch. Phrases like "warship Voyager" and "attack team" certainly felt harsh to those of us used to the peaceful enlightened Voyager we all know an love. But that was just the point. It showed how history can be turned and twisted. This is another episode with few obvious faults. The Doctor is particularly emotional.

This was a great show to show how history (or the interpretation of history) can influence the present. Star Trek has always allowed us to take a detached look at ourselves. Whenever we have contact with someone who actually lived a part of history, it makes things real to us. This is similar to the recent rerun of the Holocaust survivor story on Seventh Heaven. Several of the quotes below reinforce the importance of history.

The final touch of having the Doctor try to trace Voyager's route was brilliant. Overall another very good episode.

Again, I missed the 47's. Oh well.

Notable Quotes:

1. "When diplomacy fails...There's only one alternative--violence. Force must be applied without apology. It's the Starfleet way." Janeway to Daleth

2. "The best way to bring down a ruler is to make his people suffer. This is no time for half-measures. You wanted victory. You're going to get it." Janeway to Daleth

3. "Defeat? Genocide? Why quibble with semantics?" Janeway to Daleth

4. "To reach your home, you would destroy ours? --That's right. And you'd do the same in my position. --No, I would not." Tedran and Janeway

5. "The history of our people should be respected." Quarren

6. "We will change our views accordingly." Quarren

7. "No, not a fossil--a witness, a living witness to history." Quarren to the Doctor

8. "You called me a living witness. Well, at least give me the chance to set the record straight." Doctor to Quarren

9. "This is a reasonable extrapolation from historic record." Quarren to Doctor

10. "No one behaved like this. Well... aside from Mr. Paris." Doctor to Quarren

11. "Somewhere-- halfway across the galaxy I hope-- Captain Janeway is spinning in her grave." Doctor to Quarren

12. "Obviously , events have been reinterpreted to make your people feel better about themselves.

Revisionist history...it's such a comfort." Doctor to Quarren

12. "If we were mistaken about that...I wonder if we might also be wrong about Voyager itself." Quarren

13. "I just happen to be invulnerable to phaser fire. But I appreciate the complement." Doctor to Daleth

14. "This casts doubt on everything." Arbiter

15. "Today's problems are not at issue here. This is about history." Arbiter

16. "It's always about race." Kyrian Commissioner

17. "Change never comes easily for us." Quarren to Doctor

18. "B'Elanna Torres ... intelligent, beautiful and with a chip on her shoulder the size of the horse head nebula." Doctor to Quarren

19. "If it means anything to you, you would have made a fine member of our crew." Doctor to Quarren

20. "I'm a medical hologram...programmed to do no harm but I'm doing harm on a global scale. Ever since you reactivated me I've been concerned with clearing Voyager's good name. But that's not important now. There's more at stake....Facts be damned! Names, dates, places--it's all open to interpretation. Who's to say what really happened? And ultimately, what difference does it make? What matters is today and the future of your people." Doctor to Quarren

21. "History has been abused. We keep blaming each other for what happened in the past. If you don't help us now, it could be another 700 years." Quarren to Doctor

Jason -- 30 Apr 1998, 8:17 AM

Living through it. This was an interesting episode.

First of all, I was worried when I read the credits. With four writers (albeit Brannon Braga was credited twice) this seemed to be Voyager's most handed around episode. It looks like Braga & Menosky has to do a *credited* rewrite of Fuller's script. (This is unusual. Rewrites often aren't credited unless they are significant.) At first, I worried about that, but I couldn't really find any scars left behind from being handed around so much.

Henry Woronicz did a great job as Gegen. (Er, Quarren) as did Robert Picardo.

The "Bad Voyager" scenes actually reminded me of "Yesterday's Enterprise" as far as production design goes, but I agree with those who said that this was basically a Mirror Voyager episode without the Mirror. (And a heck of a lot more real content).

Although interesting, for the first while, it wasn't *completely* satisfying. I wasn't sure what was missing when I watched the show. Perhaps it was the absence of real emotional value, which is why I think the scene with the Kyrian arbiter confronting Quarren was pretty good despite some shaky acting from the woman.

As we were drawing to the end, I was like "This is an okay episode, not quite what I was hoping for" but then it all came together. The last scene where the camera rolls to reveal observers watching the events in a holodeck was beautiful and it was a very moving scene.

We've often talked about how the crew's idealism is often met with resistance, and in the end, it never works out for Voyager and this was a good break from that.

Random Thoughts--

--I lied the fact that there were a whole bunch of "little things" about the Alternate Voyager-- the pronunciation of Chak-O-TAY, the way Kim addressed the captain, the Borg.

It was a shame Roxann Dawson gave birth (um, that doesn't sound right). I mean, she would have been great in this episode.

--I thought the museum could have had some more interesting relics from Voyager. It would have been interesting to see something that's actually quite benign having been interpreted as something else.

In short: "Living Witness" is a solid, creative episode that gives us some interesting food for thought. Not bad at all!

Ginny -- 30 Apr 1998, 8:21 AM

She liked it. Hey, Mikey! I did like this--even better on second viewing. Of course, that could have been because my expectations were so low after last week. Anyway, a few general comments, then on to the specifics. Tim Russ' directorial debut? Not too shabby IMO. Plus, the story was interesting, and the dialogue and performances good. And, wonder of wonders, the ending was the best part of the show. More below.

GRIPES

--I didn't know they could make a back-up copy of the doctor's program! So what was all the fuss about getting him back in MESSAGE IN A BOTTLE?

--Why would the simulated tools that Quaran was using work better than real tools? And if they actually do work, aren't they then real tools?

--A little thing, but it bugged me. The Holodoc referred to himself as Rip van Winkle. That's a meaningful and evocative reference, but only if a person is familiar with Earth literature. How would Quaran have known what it meant?

GRATIFYING BITS

--Apparently, Henry Woronicz is now Voyager's go-to man when they need an enlightened alien scientist/historian/whatever whose first duty is to the truth, whether scientific truth or historical truth...oh, sorry. Picard flashback. Anyway, like Mike D., I also noticed similarities between this show and DISTANT ORIGIN. Partly because of the shared theme that a culture's experiences and prejudices shape it's perception of reality, and partly because, after nearly a quarter of an hour, I finally realized why I kept hearing Professor Gagen's voice.

--All right, I'll admit it. I sat there laughing like a crazy woman all through the free-for-all in the briefing room. Of course, now I want to know what the exact nature of the holodeck program that Kathryn admonished Chakotay and Paris to "save it for". Pegster, there's a scenario in there with you name on it.

--I thought everyone was pretty much "on" this week. Picardo was great, as usual. Mulgrew looked wonderful (I loved her short hair) and had the mercenary Janeway down cold. Phillips copped a believable attitude, Wang did a great thug, and Russ had a truly evil leer.

--Make-up must have had quite a giggle painting that tattoo on Chakotay. And has McNeill lost a little weight, or was it just the slimming effect of the black turtleneck (which looked good on everyone)?

--It was interesting to see, in all the skewed propaganda that made up the Kirian recreation of historic events, some little glimmers of insight about the Voyager crew members--Kathryn's determination to get the crew home, Kathryn and Tuvok as bantering friends (and was there the implication of **eyebrows waggling** something more? And what about the way Harry ducked under the rail on the bridge to get closer to Kathryn when he made his report? Hmmmmm....), Harry taking Tom's side in the briefing room, Chakotay's reference to his ancestry as he and Harry were beating the snot out of that Kirian captive, the hostility between Tom and Chakotay (and I still want to know what the Kirians thought went on in the holodeck).

--For once this season, a Voyager episode has a fully realized denouement. I thought the ending was extremely well done, bringing us full circle back to the simulation in the museum. It was both satisfying and poignant, especially the revelation that the Holodoc eventually set out on his own to return to the Alpha Quadrant.

--Best lines, all from the Holodoc:

"No one behaved like this! Well, aside from Mr. Paris."

"Revisionist history. It's such a comfort."

"I just happen to be impervious to phaser fire, but I appreciate the compliment."

--Most interesting allusion to 20th century issues, without beating the audience over the head with the point:

Quaran: "This isn't about race."

Kirian Arbiter: "It's always about race."

Vickie T. -- 30 Apr 1998, 8:25 AM

I like it, I love it... I want some more of it! (I know, someone else's lyrics, but they seem so appropriate.) I thoroughly enjoyed Living Witness. It is certainly one of the most enjoyable episodes we've seen here in the second half of the season. It also had some of those classic Trek qualities that I love to see, like current social issues addressed in a thinly disguised future society, a good solid moral, and an uplifting ending.

And, yes, I'll admit it: I liked our alternate crew just a tad better than the real one! Weren't they just delightfully evil, deliciously malicious, and waaay over the top? I loved the briefing room free-for-all. It was a picture right out of an old western. Ma listening to her bank robber sons explaining and arguing over why the last heist didn't go according to plan. I loved Tuvok and his sinister smile. I loved Chakotay: "I am a man of peace...OK, Harry, hit him again." I loved Seven and her mini Borg collective. I loved those black leather gloves. I even loved the evil Harry!

Did anyone besides me think that Doc's recreation of events portrayed Voyager and himself as just a little too perfect?...just a teeny bit of extra positive spin on the whole thing?

Mike, I appreciate your comments on the holodoc backup. I was thinking, "Wait, all current evidence on the show suggests that they don't have and don't know how to make a backup program." But, as you suggested, that doesn't mean that they *won't* figure out how to do it sometime on down the road.

On the subject of hair styles: I'm with Mike. TPTB should give serious thought to adopting Evil Janeway's hairstyle. IMO, it was much more flattering than the current do. I also liked Evil Chakotay's hair better than the regular style.

Unlike Eric, the fact that this episode was seemingly unrelated to anything else didn't bother me a bit. I thought it was a great hour of entertainment. I hope TPTB manage to keep it up for our final episodes.

Diane -- 30 Apr 1998, 8:29 AM

Living Witness was Unforgettable. Can you tell I really enjoyed this episode, especially after last weeks. What was it called again?

Just want to make a few quick comments, will get back later with a full blow review.

Everything worked--the writing, story idea, acting, and directing. Great debut for Tim Russ, the director. So far, I have been very impressed with McNeill's, Picardo's, and now Russ' direction of stories. All have told the stories handed to them solidly. I noticed Russ likes to play around with the light, just like McNeill.

Acting: Great! Love everyone being evil, even thought of Ginny when Chakotay and Tom were fighting. Enjoyed Doc remembering B'Elanna.

Loved the story. Gordy's first comments were "The Enola Gay." My thoughts were two: the fight over the reason for the Civil War, and The Holocaust Museum.

The layered ending. Explained why the Doc was running around the museum with his holoemitter—it too was a hologram.

Have noted a lot of comments about the Doc being left behind. Wasn't this a his back-up program? Wasn't his story being told 700-1000 years from now? Isn't this what the entire story was about: what is the truth!

Peter -- 30 Apr 1998, 9:43 AM

am I alone here ?? I did NOT like it ... hmmm, where to start ... I really wanted to like that episode ... the teaser was of course more action oriented then the show itself ... but the premise was intriguing ...

That , and the background and the overall good acting should make it a great show ... but somehow the pace was wrong .. it came over me as gentle as a lesson in school ... (and our history teacher had the power of making you sleepy just with his monologues..)

single points:

-why reveal the "we are in a museum" plot in the teaser ???

-Harry cannot even play a baddie..

"I could go on with it all day"

slapping the guy once

"maybe I cannot go on with that all day"

... later returning with the 24th century equivalent of a baseball bat - how lame... and what about that digging under the metal frame to get close to intendant Kira .. errr Janeway ???

-they really had fun showing the execution twice ?? hmmm

I do not know .. that episode did not feel right ... and it was (and that is always the main point for me, regardless if it is "our" voyager crew or not) No viewing pleasure ... I thought about channelhopping all the time ... and next week does not look interesting either ... hmm, 4th season ... great start .. lame end ???

shame shame shame ...

Eric -- 30 Apr 1998, 10:17 AM

You're NOT alone Peter...

If you read my review, you'll see that.

It was a good Science Fiction story, but it wasn't a Voyager episode! What did this have to do with Voyager?? I just can't get past that!

T'Racy -- 30 Apr 1998, 10:41 AM

Just because the story didn't affect...(spoilers) ... the Voyager crew we know and love (with the exception of the Doc, which we know was only his backup file), doesn't not make it a Voyager episode. (IMHO)

IIRC, we have never before seen an episode that addresses a culture long after Voyager has encountered it. Yes, we've had many episodes in which we are left with an impression that the Voyager crew had a certain affect on a particular culture, but we've never before seen the far-reaching results.

This is 700 years into the future (Voyager time). How has one encounter influenced the histories of these two peoples? Certainly not beneficially. A simple misinterpretation of events has caused some serious racial problems.

IMO, this was a very well done episode. Alas, it is also one I must watch again. I created Ginny's special picture during the episode. Needless to say, my ears were glued to the TV, but my eyes (poor, strained little things) were pretty much working on the picture the whole time. If I have any other input, I'll be sure to let you all know.

("Yaaaaay..." <-Gratuitous Monty Python reference)

Peter -- 30 Apr 1998, 10:55 AM

but we have different reasons ERIC .. you disliked it because it is NOT our beloved crew... that is no reason for me to not like the show.. if it is told well and makes an interesting 50 minutes ... and it shows a setting I like to see and character who from time to time I like to see out of character ... it COULD have worked ... it was just so slow.. and for some reason I always so a raised index finger .... a well .. but thanks Eric anyway for giving me support in this dark hour ... did I mention I get a root canal removed today ???

Fliteman -- 30 Apr 1998, 9:48 AM

Um... I have a problem... (Spoilers, Andy...) It's kind of a BIG problem, but we'll get to that...

I thought this started off as a Mirror Voyager episode; I'm hoping they do one; I would LOVE to see the turrets mounted on Voyager again. Evil Janeway, Chak, Tuvok... all excellent. The black gloves were a nice touch, too.

The Doc DID seem a little emotional; almost anguished at times, but I'm coming to expect that from him. I DO like his lines (people above have listed quotes - I agree with all of them. Whoever wrote his program gave him a quick wit.

The viewing of history from certain perspectives was pretty interesting too; It reminds me of the stories we used to read about Russia. How Stalin re-wrote history books about "the Great Patriotic War" (WWII for us) and how they almost single-handedly defeated the Nazis. Or, how do we view our Revolutionary War? From our perspective, the good guys won. Jules' history books probably talk about the Colonies, full of lads committing treason during that time.

Now... The problem...

The story itself (the wide angle view here) was somewhat like a Stephen King novel - it moved, kept my attention, held my interest, but the finish was lacking, IMHO. There's something disturbing about the message at the end.

If we're to assume this is truly 700 years in the future (well, 1000 years from our perspective;) and the past is truly laid in stone, then Starship Voyager never makes it home. It's destroyed in an attack, and the structure itself falls onto that planet. (The historian mentions about finding artifacts under the sea.)

We aren't sure about the crew; for sure, they probably used the escape pods; so, we don't KNOW that the crew never made it home... but Voyager itself is destroyed, sometime during it's journey to the Alpha Quad.

I just HATE that message...

Vickie T. -- 30 Apr 1998, 10:11 AM

I don't think it's a problem, Flite. Remember when the first bad guys beamed aboard in the Doc's re-creation (can't remember the species name)? The leader said "Grab all of their technology you can get." Then, at the very end of the Doc's version he said something like "Then, nine more ships attacked us. I don't remember anything else, that must have been when my backup module was taken." I just assumed that during the attacks, various bits and pieces of "technology" were stolen and Voyager never got them back before they left.

Yes, I know this is a far cry from the "We'll sacrifice every man on this ship to prevent our technology from falling into other's hands" attitude we saw in earlier seasons, but Janeway seems to be forgetting about that as time goes on.

Martha -- 30 Apr 1998, 10:23 AM

There is another, not so inconsistent explanation. When Voyager started out in the Delta Quad the species were a lot more primitive. As they have been progressing through space they have found more technologically advanced species and the need to not "contaminate" them became less dire.

SuzyQ -- 30 Apr 1998, 11:00 AM

That's a big assumption, Flite, and...rather pointless IMO. Besides, as TOS surmised on "The City on the Edge of Forever," the past is NOT laid in stone.

I don't know why you think Voyager never makes it home. I had the impression that all those relics were leftover from what was stolen from Voyager or a possible shuttle crash, not because Voyager was destroyed. Relics previously on land can be found under the sea from natural sea level changes over time. And with the war between those two races reaching a fever pitch, they might have been left behind as relatively unimportant at the time (medical tricorder, PADD, supply case, etc.)

From the AOTW's comment that he too always wondered what happened to Voyager, it was clear to me that the remains of the main body of Voyager were never found. Meaning, it could have survived and gotten the heck out of Dodge.

Eric -- 30 Apr 1998, 11:08 AM

Yes!! Yes!! That's it! A shuttle Crash! Jules!! I think Suzy's right! We definitely had a shuttle crash! I saw it when they showed the city!

If you look closely you can see a burning Shuttle. (And I think I saw a tearful Chakotay holding a burning steering wheel...)

I win!! I win the shuttle pool!!!

I'll even give half my winnings to Suzy!

Fliteman -- 30 Apr 1998, 11:09 AM

I'd feel better if you were right...and I hope you are, Suzy. But the bits & pieces they had of Voyager... a bridge rail, a console piece, etc... made me wonder WHY anyone would want to steal THAT? (Oh, who knows... perhaps they would.) But it was my impression, viewing Voyager's ruins, that the main craft had been destroyed.

Anyone else? Did I misinterpret what I was seeing? (I WAS trying to put two kids down for night-night at the time...I coulda missed a few facts.)

Mike D -- 30 Apr 1998, 11:44 AM

Flite, about Voyager's fate...Voyager wasn't destroyed. like someone else pointed out, the Doc and the historian wondered what became of Voyager, so how could they have found artifacts indicating her destruction? Also, at the end, they said the Doc was tracing Voyager's journey. If the artifacts indicated that Voyager was destroyed, the Doc, of all people(or should I say all holograms), would have realized it and not bothered wondering what became of her.

BTW, someone tell the Whippersnapper, it's too late for him to win the shuttle pool. We already had our winner's drinks in Vegas, my martini was delicious. Eat your heart out, Eric. Maybe next year.

SuzyQ -- 30 Apr 1998, 11:59 AM

Martha mentioned in her review something about...the recreations being based on schematics that were found. I know that was true for the holoprograms, but the few relics on display were real. Remember that the "proof" of Doc's version - the medical doohicky - was the real thing that scanned the dead guy. (Can you tell I have a memory like a sieve?)

The only plausible explanation for me is that some of it was real and some was "recreated" via the programs and files found years later. The real stuff might have come from a failed shuttle mission between Voyager and their trading partner that was a casualty of intense fighting. If Voyager did *not* use germ warfare, one of the races did. BackupDoc could have been put on a shuttle to help deal with the fallout, along with the medical thingie. If it was then boarded by the other side or caught, the contents might have been dispersed all over the planet.

MEG -- 30 Apr 1998, 9:56 AM

This could become. . .one of my all-time favorite Star Trek episodes. The subject is one I've long been interested in -- what are the uses of history? What role does historical knowledge play in our lives? I was pleasantly surprised to find that the episode addressed those issues intelligently and in some depth.

O. Deus and Marie commented in another thread on the parallels to the Holocaust. That was certainly one which came to my mind, too, and O. Deus' observation about the resemblance of the show's museum to portions of the Holocaust Memorial is right on target. Another, possibly more pertinent parallel, I think, might be to the current Israeli-Palestinian situation (and how interesting that this aired on the 50th anniversary of the creation of the State of Israel.) But what this show was saying could just as easily apply to the struggle over Afro-centric school curriculums in the U.S. or the interpretation of historic sites like Little Big Horn. Whose story gets told? Whose viewpoint matters?

And what impact do those things have on a society?

Henry Woronicz was flawlessly believable as the museum director/curator: he must know some of these people in real life. And I thought Robert Picardo's performance was quite moving. The direction by Tim Russ was much better than Andrew Robinson's last week, and Russ got much better performances out of the cast. Of course, he had a better script and scenario to work with. This may have been written by a committee, but they did a great job with the characters: there were just enough recognizable traits in each of the crew to make it believable that, after 700 years, this could be how they might be interpreted by a society on which they had a profound impact but which really knew little about them.

I won't turn this into a full-scale essay (although I could). I'm guessing this episode won't be to everyone's taste, and that there will be complaints that this didn't have anything to do with story arcs and continuity. I didn't care. I'm grateful for a serious, thoughtful, intelligent story with (for a change) an ultimately positive message on the triumph of the human spirit.

Maybe I'll skip the rest of this season's episodes and just appreciate what this one gave me.

Ruth -- 30 Apr 1998, 11:07 AM

Yes, MEG, I was just discussing this episode with a non-Voyager watching colleague, and she suggested that it would be a good video to show in a historiography class because of its discussion on the uses and interpretation of historical evidence. I think I'll tape it again on Sunday night on a tape I use just for school.

I haven't posted my comments yet because I haven't seen the whole episode. I taped it, while channel surfing some other stuff that was on (including Third Rock, which had the hilarious John Clues as a guest star).

MEG -- 30 Apr 1998, 11:41 AM

RE: It would be perfect, Ruth. I also thought that it would tie in well with a course I took as a grad student on the public presentation of history. I dragged the main textbook ("Presenting The Past: Essays on History and the Public") from that class down last night after the show, and just from skimming back through what I'd highlighted and written in the margins I found several issues that the episode raised as well. So neat to see that!

Martha -- 30 Apr 1998, 10:10 AM

I really enjoyed this one. I too was puzzled by the thought of how they were going to explain the holodoc's presence on the crew next week but when I said that my husband (who doesn't usually watch Voyager) said "It was a backup program" and then turned over and fell asleep.

Great evil crew. I thought the black gloves were great but Janeway took them off and then put them back on too much in my opinion. I thought evil Harry was fun. I liked his realization that it would be hard on one's knuckles to actually "keep it up all day."

Evil smiling Tuvok is *very* good looking. It's a shame that Vulcons don't smile because his really lights up his face. Was it just me or were his ears too big in the holodocs re-creation as well as in the Kreyin (?) simulation.

I thought evil Janeway had a sexual aura and rapport with the crew. Her exchange of smiles with Tuvok, her leaning in to Kim under the railing, I thought it was very subtle and well done. Those Kreyin weren't fooled by the concept of the "ship of good friends."

I don't think that all of Voyager was in the Kreyin sea. I thought it was explained that they had recreated Voyager from a damaged schematic they found. I don't know how they got the other artifacts.

All in all I really thought this was a well done episode, one of the best.

SuzyQ -- 30 Apr 1998, 10:33 AM

Excellent Episode! Now THIS is what keeps me coming back. What a beauty of a show!

As for what it had to do with Voyager - well, it may not have been the real crewmembers, but it dealt with how they were remembered by a race in the DQ, which could affect how the Federation is accepted in that area in the future. Doc's role was also similar to Scotty's in TNG's "Relics" and the episode that introduced Tom Riker. He may not have been the original, but as far as his experiences up to the moment he was stolen, they were as valid and "real" as RealDoc's, and no less accurate.

Most everyone has noted the good stuff and I concur wholeheartedly:

- YES on EvilKate and her haircut! "Butch?" Maybe, but it's definitely more flattering than the bob and she can carry it off.

- YES on the Men of Voy beating up on each other! Tom calling Neelix "Hedgehog!" SadisticHarry! The looks and comments between EvilKate and EvilTuvok (definitely something implied there)! Chakotay going wild with the tattoo ink (maybe extra lines are like a notch on a bedpost?)!

- YES on flattering black clothing and gloves! (This is starting to sound like an S&M episode of VOY.)

- YES on all the guest AOTW's! This episode really hinged on a compelling performance from that main guy (name?) and he came through. I wonder if they wrote the part with him in mind, or even built it around him deliberately...

- YES on the wonderful, awesomely talented Robert Picardo!

- YES on B'Elanna's presence in name only! Although, I agree it would have been a kick to see both her, Janeway, and Seven strutting their stuff amongst the male crewmembers. (No, honest, I DON'T have S&M fantasies!) Poor Kes; that "transformation" must have spewed memory-blocking pheromones because it's like she never existed.

- YES on kick-a**, hopeful, slightly wistful ending! Wistful for BackupDoc anyway. How sad to outlive your family and friends, but how fulfilling to know that he helped make one society's history more accurate, and lived to see the more harmonious results. (sniff)

- YES on the writing, direction and lighting! Tim Russ did this? Good show! And, Brannon, please explain how you can oversee all the scripts for this show and allow dreck like "Unforgettable" to be made while almost simultaneously preparing "Living Witness." Do you have multiple personalities?

Are you on prescription medication? What gives? Why can't the quality be maintained? Am I talking to a wall?

- YES on the subtext about history, race relations and blind faith! Good heavens - what do you think could be said about this Nebula should it be discovered 700 years in the future? Um, if that's ever the case and you need a figure to portray me in a virtual museum exhibit, just use Janet Jackson - pre-nose ring phase - please. Uh, yeah...that looks like me...;-)

O. Bleek -- 30 Apr 1998, 12:50 PM

Ditto what you said Mike, plus. Very imaginative story. Picardo was outstanding as usual. I agree Mike, I liked Janeway's hair short.

Maybe they were introducing a new look to see what reaction the fans give, before making it so?

The revisionist history plot was excellent, and had depth to it. Too bad it didn't tie in with real-time Voyager.

Biggest laugh: the thugs of Voyager - sneering Tuvok, belligerent Harry, and CHAK-otay with the Prince Valiant hairdo and extended tattoo. - Too much fun!

Joyce -- 30 Apr 1998, 2:57 PM

This was the best episode of the season...which is why it pains me to admit it was all about a character who not only doesn't exist, but *can't* exist.

In a number of previous episodes, including The Swarm, Future's End, and Message In A Bottle, it was made clear that there is only *one* copy of the Doctor, and that, for technical reasons beyond our comprehension, not only *isn't* there a backup of the Doctor, but that a backup is not even possible.

If there were a backup to the Doc, that included all memories to date, why all the angst about rebooting the original program in The Swarm? Why, when the baddy downloaded the Doc in Future's End, didn't they activate the backup? Why, when the Doc went on the away mission in Message In A Bottle, was there that long silly subplot about Tom nagging Harry to *write a new EMH program*, if they could just activate the backup? We've been hit over the head with the fact that there *is* no backup, and the technobabble in The Swarm insisted that there could *be* no backup.

And who was the star of this week's show? Why, none other than the Backup Doctor. Sigh - did Braga get a whiff of last week's memory-wipe ray?

Other than that -- great story. For an anthology.

Jules -- 30 Apr 1998, 3:00 PM

I look forward to seeing the episode. What I've heard about it so far - the mythical events versus the real ones - reminds me very much of a course I took in my first year of university. I did an English degree, but in order to make us all well rounded individuals, they insisted that we took two other subsidiary subjects for the first year. I opted for Italian and History - and part of that History course was the examination of the differences in accounts of certain historical events - in my particular case the fall of Constantinople and the American Civil War - depending on the perspective of the writer.

It was something of an eye-opener, seeing how the events described changed, from eye witness accounts by people in both camps, from people retelling those eyewitness accounts who in the interests of telling a racier story reshuffled the facts to polish up the narrative, from those translating the accounts from one language to another who really quite literally did lose something in the translation, to those who had vested interests and their own political drum to bang which slanted their perspective and altered who the good and bad guys were at any given moment. If, indeed there were any definitive good or bad guys in the first place. And then there were those who just plain spelled people's names wrong.

I loved it so much that I came this close to changing my degree subject. I'm still not entirely sure that I shouldn't have done just that.

And of all the Trek series, Voyager is probably the one most suited to this treatment. In the case of the series based in the Alpha Quadrant, the Federation is a constant in the lives of those who encounter it. The comparatively short distances involved mean that the races they encounter will most likely encounter them again. But in Voyager's case, they really are something new in the lives of all the races they come across. Whether they prove to be a good or a bad influence on any given race, they have the potential to have a significant impact upon it. It's not just something as simplistic as violating the Prime Directive to give a less sophisticated race technology they didn't have before, whether accidentally or deliberately; you have to wonder whether races like the Sikarians, despite the technology that allowed them to hop 40,000 light years in the blink of an eye, had their culture significantly disrupted by the gift of all those stories from Voyager's library...

So I guess I'm looking forward to this one.

Marie -- 30 Apr 1998, 4:04 PM

Hey, Jason, I loved the evil Janeway...She was a hoot. I can tell that Mulgrew had fun with that one. Actually, I think she's possibly better at playing a baddie. I also liked her short hairdo, even though it was obviously fake.

Whew, I managed to say something nice about Janeway. And let me also add that I think this was one of Voyager's best episodes. I kept waiting for them to screw up somewhere, but at the end I was satisfied. This was a very TOS-ish show, and that's about the highest honor I can bestow on a Voyager episode.

BTW, Jason, I always enjoy reading your thoughtful posts, even if I disagree with your perspective, as in the thread at Psi Phi. Hope you don't take my Janeway rants personally.

SuzyQ -- 30 Apr 1998, 4:12 PM

Disagree - because there is nothing that precludes...Voyager from developing such backup technology in the future, or acquiring it via trade with another species. There was no date stamp on this episode. Therefore, we don't know *when* in the future Voyager encountered these aliens. Obviously it's after all the ones you mentioned where the backup tech wasn't present. All those episodes would still be valid if backup tech was acquired afterwards.

But "can't" is a pretty strong statement when we don't know for certain that this episode is one week into Voy's future, or one decade.

Jason -- 30 Apr 1998, 8:20 PM

What Robert Picardo said on this issue...In an interview, Robert Picardo said he wondered himself about this and asked Brannon Braga about it.

Braga supposedly said that the story was so interesting that it was worth doing it, and that the people who like to point these things out will do so no matter what they decided to do with this story.

To try to defend the backup in Voyager terms... it is not unreasonable that the Voyager crew decided to start making back ups of the Doctor after the events of not only "Message in a Bottle", where he could have conceivably been lost to them forever, but "The Killing Game" as well, where the Doctor proved his invaluable worth in liberating the crew (yet again).

Joyce -- 30 Apr 1998, 10:35 PM

RE: What Robert Picardo said on this issue...

Jason said:

"To try to defend the backup in Voyager terms... it is not unreasonable that the Voyager crew decided to start making back ups of the Doctor after the events of not only "Message in a Bottle", where he could have conceivably been lost to them forever, but "The Killing Game" as well, where the Doctor proved his invaluable worth in liberating the crew (yet again)."

Welllll .... I would accept that *if* they'd bothered to tell us about it. But they made *such* a point in "The Swarm" of the fact that it was *impossible* to backup the Doctor (because it suited that plot for this to be so), that I can only accept it if they'd actually bothered to explain that. Even a two-sentence explanation within this episode itself, acknowledging that they had achieved what had been a previous impossibility would have been adequate for me.

But since they didn't even bother to do that, I'm forced to consider it just another instance of Braga's contempt for his audience.

Am I nitpicking? I don't know. But Voyager is the only show I watch where they will make such a point of establishing a rule or an impossibility, and then completely ignore it when it becomes inconvenient for a potential story line. It would be like watching a sitcom and suddenly being told that one of the characters you'd been watching for four years was immortal. Or had a twin brother who's been right there all along, only you've never seen him. Or a character who's been single all along suddenly has a spouse and family with no explanation.

I liked this episode, I really did. As a stand-alone episode. For what it says about the writers and producers... Well, I think I'll just drop the subject.

SuzyQ -- 30 Apr 1998, 4:22 PM

You saw that, huh, Eric? (g)...I'll admit that I did think, upon seeing Seven all Borged up again - "Poor Jeri. What a bummer having to go through the 4hour makeup job again. And, Poor Eric and Andy having to watch metal and rubber instead of lycra!"

Peter, YAM stands for Young Adult Male and is a commonly used marketing term to refer to that much-desired demographic - Young Adult Males between the ages of 18-35. Evidently, marketing firms find this the most desirable demographic to appeal to. However, current evidence (TITANIC) indicates that PAFs (Pre Adult Females) have a whopping impact on box-office, too. So, that could change...;-)

Terry -- 30 Apr 1998, 10:36 PM

I really liked Living Witness. I fought against it; I was readying my usual Braga attack but to no avail.

Of course, it was a hoot to watch the evil Voyager. I hadn't had as much fun since Worst Case Scenario. It must be my Eric side but I loved wicked Janeway with her short cut, black gloves, and smirking villainy. Not too far behind was psychopathic android Doctor and big tattoo Chakotay.

But if that was all that Living Witness had had, it probably would have only been a decent episode. The part that I really liked was the philosophical idea behind the script. The idea of revisionist history and reconstruction of elaborate theories from scraps of info was fascinating. It reminded me of many instances of current day disagreements between antagonistic ethnic groups especially where the currently or previously oppressed group reconstructs their lost history which creates a backlash: American Indians and white, black and white Americans, Israelis and Arabs, etc.

(In fact, I was reading today in the USA Today paper about the 50th anniversary of the state of Israel. The new generation of Israeli historians are starting to reveal many lies behind much of cherished Israeli history. And the Palestinians are also started to admit some of the lies in their legends as well. Both sides claimed to be innocent victims set upon by the beastly enemy.)

The key scene in this episode is the argument between Quarin and the Doctor after the riot. The Doctor had some very persuasive although mostly emotional points about the importance of letting go of the past. But I was very pleased to hear Quarin's counter-arguments about hatred and conflict being better defeated by understanding the truth than by perpetuating lies. It surprised me quite a bit since I expected Braga to go along with covering up the truth.

I must admit that the surprise ending with the far, far future historians viewing Quarin and the Doc did surprise me. Great move, there. Nice touch that the duplicate Doc survived and eventually followed Voyager. Very nice touch.

The only thing that prevented this episode from being truly great was something of a lack of real excitement. The events of the current day (700 in the future, I mean) were never suspenseful despite the riot. But that low key scientific approach suited the episode.

Marie -- 30 Apr 1998, 11:09 PM

RE: I like it, I love it...Yes, Vickie... I loved Voyager's evil counterparts, too, especially Janeway and Tuvok. We actually got to see Tuvok smile--even if it was an evil grin. Those two showed a real chemistry together in this episode.

I can see a whole collection of fanfic developing around the wicked characterizations in this episode....A Mistress Janeway and Naughty Tuvok scenario come to mind immediately. Then again, *I* liked evil Tuvok. To heck with Janeway....

I have to confess, Vickie, that I found Tattoo boy's counterpart decidedly unattractive. Someone mentioned that he looked like a Neanderthal, and I agree. He was funny, though with his "I am a man of peace" speech, playing good cop/bad cop with Harry Kim. Hey, there's another fanfic possibility (though not an attractive one).

Now somebody PLEASE get rid of Janeway's awful suburban do and spice up her image with a short crop (I'm talking hair, not riding instrument. That's for the fanfic piece.)

Okay, I'm tired and rambling, so I'll just shut up now.

Roxanne -- 30 Apr 1998, 11:07 PM

I liked Living Witness also. For many reasons, but the biggest reason of all was that it was typical Trek. I think Marie said this. It brings up relevant issues and presents both sides of it without making any moral judgements. It left me unsettled and unsure about what I thought, which made me think more.

I did feel that there was a little overacting. I loved Janeway and her hair. I think they should keep it this way also. I thought Chakotay's tattoo was overdone, as was the evilness of Voyager. Black gloves, come on! I know they wanted to show the contrast, but there is a concept of padding someone's head before you hit it with a sledge hammer.

Jason -- 1 May 1998, 2:18 PM

RE: I loved the evil Janeway... Marie, I don't take our disagreements personally. Maybe one day I'll be we'll agree on the same issue at the same time and we'll team up.

If it's any consolation, I consider you my foil. You are my Seven of Nine. And just like Janeway with Seven of Nine, I consider it my duty to make sure that one day you accept that Captain Janeway is always right. :-D (It's a big task)