Killing Game

Peter -- 4 Mar 1998, 9:26 PM

The Killing Game ... inconsistencies...

hi do ho

.. I just saw the show.. and so many things are floating in my mind.. lets see if I find some order ..

1) kudos to Wang/Kim.. they did not suck .. actually they were really good in the first part

2) I like to observe how Hollywood treat anything 'German' (especially language) .. a) there was a sign on the street saying 'rauchen, offenes licht und feuer verboten'--- meaning 'smoking, open light and fire prohibited' ... WHO would mount a sign like that outside a house... these signs where used in garages :) b) the small extras' German was good (schnell (quick) ja (yes) ) while B'Elanna and the guard struggled thru some phonetic stuff c) the car seen several times in the first part is a Citroen 2CV ... and yes, it was really built before WW2.. but NOT in that design (Charleston) .. it look very much different 50 years ago ... the version driving there was today's... btw.. I had two of these 'ducks' as they were called... merely umbrellas on wheels.

3) an American soldier (Tom Paris) asking an obvious Asian guy in a WW2 like surrounding if he was American ??? very unlikely !!!

I think I have to sleep about how much I liked that double feature .. I am really not sure.. and does that not tell a lot ???

O. Deus -- 4 Mar 1998, 11:10 PM

Signs, Germans and Bombing Raids: The meaning of the sign was IMHO that no lights of fires were permitted during bombing raids as far as I could make out (the camera didn't linger on it for very long). It was not the no smoking allowed around open fuel signs you find in garages. Of course why such a sign in German would be hanging in a French city is questionable.

I thought some of the extras German was actually dubbed in at times. The head humans German was quite a bit off, and his English might be explained as a variety of university taught English but they might as well have stuck to an actual German accent.

The reason Tom asked Harry is he was American because Harry was speaking with an American accent, (no universal translator needed for that)

Ruth -- 5 Mar 1998, 8:24 AM

Tom and Harry: I don't know the specifics, but I do know that a number of Asian-Americans, including those of Japanese descent, served in W.W.II. A survey text book I've got mentions a couple of infantry units that served in distinction in Italy.

That said, I thought GI Tom's easy acceptance of Harry's Betty Grable answer, which was obviously forced, was a little too pat. I was expecting the other kinds of questions you see in W.W.II movies, or W.W.II takeoffs, like who won the world series in a given year, or even the name of the president or vice-president (I guess the writers assumed Harry wouldn't know those things).

Marie -- 5 Mar 1998, 3:25 PM

No doubt about it, the German ... mouthed by most of the actors was dubbed, though Dawson gamely tried to speak German.

I just assumed that the no-smoking sign, hung on Nazi headquarters, was posted there because the building contained bombs and other explosives.

Peter -- 5 Mar 1998, 1:43 AM

that sign...I just reviewed that yellow sign .. it says:

Rauchen, offenes Licht u. Feuer verboten literally :

Smoking, open light a(nd) fire prohibited.

Nothing about bomb raids. It IS a common sign today in garages in Germany, we had one of these..

Why to put it on a building in FRANCE is a good question !

Diane -- 5 Mar 1998, 6:42 AM

That sign--a great sign...and it was hanging on Nazi Headquarters. Peter, think what it says "OPEN LIGHT AND FIRE PROHIBITED!" Didn't you take any literature courses? Light and fire are symbols of enlightenment, knowledge, CHANGE. What better sign could be hanging outside a Nazi Headquarters.

G'Inny -- 5 Mar 1998, 8:21 AM

THE KILLING GAME--the episode that asks the burning question...How many licks does it take to get to the Tootsie Roll center of a Tootsie Pop? The answer: Entirely too many.

I can't count the number of Star Trek episodes that I've watched and thought, "You know, this really should have been a two-parter." TKG is the first Star Trek two-parter that I've ever seen and thought, "Were two parts really necessary?" I found segments of this episode really draggy, especially the "Kate and Seven: Girls of the French Resistance" sequences. I don't know whether to blame the writers or the director. Probably the director, David Livingston, since he's responsible for pacing.

I'm no expert on the German language, Nazis, early 20th century weaponry and tactics, or French wine labels, so I can't critique the specific details, but IMHO the holodeck scenario didn't play like a scene out of World War II--it played like a scene out of a World War II movie, and a B movie, at that. I just don't know about the continuing Braga/Menosky collaboration (pun intended). Has Menosky done anything really memorable this season?

GRIPES

(My lack of enthusiasm for this show may really start to show now.)

--O.K. I give up. How did the Hirogen manage to take over the ship?

--I like Kathryn. I like Seven. But to misquote the inestimable James Tiberius Kirk, too much of anything, even the Girls of the French Resistance, is not necessarily a good thing. I found myself getting restless during those interminable coded transmission and infiltrating Nazi Headquarters sequences and wishing I could fast forward in real time.

--I can't even begin to tell you how distasteful I found it that B'Elanna, as Brigitte, was carrying the Nazi commander's child.

--Braga and Menosky's dialogue between "Bobby" and "Brigitte" was just awful. (The dialogue between Kathryn and "Capt. Miller" was only slightly better, mostly because of Kate Mulgrew's knowing and ironic delivery.) And the little scene where Tom calls the Nazi pig was simply ridiculous. He's a hologram, Tommy. Translation--he's not real. He didn't had sex with B'Elanna. She's not really pregnant.

--What happened to the pack behavior that was so distinctive in the earlier appearances of the Hirogen? I thought the ritualized gestures of dominance and submission within the pack hierarchy were really evocative and interesting, but they weren't anywhere to be seen in TKG, although Harry did imply, more or less, that there was still an existing pack hierarchy, when he was desperately trying to convince the Hirogen who back-handed him to let him go to the brig. But there wasn't any of the obvious dom/sub interaction that we saw in HUNTERS

--RDM and Beltran are never to wear their hair parted on the side again--ever. And with that helmet down around his ears, RDM looked like an awkward nine-year-old playing soldier.

--I was extremely uncomfortable listening to the Nazi commander's speech to Torange (sp?) about destiny and being true to one's nature (no matter how destructive and perverted), but it was very well-delivered.

--Tell me again, 'cause I still don't get it. How did the Hirogen manage to take over the ship?

GRATIFYING BITS

--I was strongly reminded of DISTANT ORIGIN at several points in this episode, particularly in the conversations between the Hirogen commander and Torange, which gave us the distinctly alien perspective on what was going on. The two actors who played the commander and Torange were quite good, particularly since the Hirogen make-up limited facial expression, and the actors had to use their voices to convey so much about the characters' feelings and reactions.

--I thought the opening sequence in the Klingon program excellent. I only wish the rest of the episode had been as compelling as that initial hook.

--Well, well, well, Mr. Kim. I am impressed. Pretending to collaborate while quietly sabotaging various ship's systems, formulating the initial strategy for freeing the crew and taking back the ship, talking your way out of a beating, AND remembering that Betty Grable was famous for her gams (although I thought American soldiers always asked for Mickey Mantle's batting average). I really liked the scene in which Harry first encounters "Bobby". The hostility and suspicion that Bobby projects toward someone who's obviously an ethnic Asian, "You're American?", was a not-so-subtle reminder of how much (and, yet, how little) has changed since W.W.II.

--The scenes with the Holodoc and Neelix in the Klingon program were just hysterical. And I laughed out loud at the Klingon cavalry arriving in the nick of time.

--Did anyone else notice the almost throw-away line that Seven and, of all people, Neelix were the Hirogen commander's favored prey?

--I also enjoyed Tom and Seven's brief little scene together. These two characters could really be fun, if they were given a chance.

--Despite an uneven episode, great lines abounded. Here are a few of my favorites:

Hirogen--"You are resilient prey."

Neelix--"Just a little tete-a-tete with a member of the master race."

Tuvok--"In any covert battle, logic is a potent weapon."

Tom--"The Borg of their day. No offense." Seven--"None taken.

Seven--"Logic is irrelevant."

And the best lines, as usual, go to the Holodoc:

"You should have seen what a mess you were after the Crusades."

"We've got to stop meeting like this."

"Tally-ho."

"They're Klingons, not kittens."

T'Racy -- 5 Mar 1998, 9:03 AM

"Favored Prey..."

Ginny said:

--Did anyone else notice the almost throw-away line that Seven and, of all people, Neelix were the Hirogen commander's favored prey?

Y'know, that struck me, too. It kind of reminds me of my cat, and how she finds a dumb ol' paper bag so much more entertaining than the sophisticated catnip-stuffed felt mice that we buy her.

Simple pleasures, I guess.

Mrs. Riley -- 5 Mar 1998, 10:03 AM

Why, G'inny, it's obvious...Here's how the Hirogen took Voyager:

The Hirogen attacked Voyager with a fleet of TWENTY Hirogen vessels. Did you miss this part?? Too bad, it was the best part of the show. The Voyager crew fought valiantly, until only four Hirogen vessels were left, but they finally succumbed in a massive battle sequence in the holodeck. The remaining Hirogens were taken by the possibilities of endlessly repeating battles, and decided to stay for a while.

Of course, I still don't understand why the crew of Voyager couldn't beat off the four remaining Hirogen vessels once their neural emitters were overloaded. Probably could be explained by the same phenomenon that caused the holographic buildings to remain behind when the holo-emitter grid was fried...

Oh, and I agree, Tom and Chakotay must NEVER be allowed to wear their hair like that again. And besides, the green helmet made Tom's eyes look blue.

Sorry, I can't help myself. When the first half of the show ended with the 'To be continued' graphic, I found myself thinking, "I could wait a week to see what happens."

O. Bleek -- 5 Mar 1998, 9:20 PM

What about the obvious follow-up to that question... Yes, of course, how DID the Hirogen take over the ship in the first place? (But that would have made it a 3-parter, or even a mini-series.)

What I want to know is - how did the crew take it back and manage a truce at the end? It was written in classic Voyager style - like a reset-button, wrap-everything-up ending. And in a throwaway narration that went something like, "..yadda, yadda, yadda, then we had a truce."

It's like the writers are so lazy that for every episode they want to have whiz-bang battles and ship-threatening scenarios, then slam, bam, thank you ma'am - everything back to normal without any consequences. The crew can repair any kind of damage to the ship, Seven can bring people back from the dead, many crewmembers can be lost in battle without affecting ship performance. In other words, anything can be fixed, no situation is too far out, too extreme, too sensational.

Carol -- 6 Mar 1998, 3:03 PM

Braga and Menoskey:

Ginny Wrote --

"Has Menoskey done anything really memorable this season?"

Menoskey wrote The Gift which was one of the best eps this season (IMO). He also wrote Concerning Flight which I wouldn't call wonderful but I thought it was cute.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that he's probably also wrote the story for the upcoming Omega Directive...it sounds like a story he would do.

Also, I find it interesting that you mention that the story reminded you of Distant Origin...as that was a story that was written by the (somewhat demented) Braga/Menoskey team as well. Together they've written...

Future's End I and II
Darkling (Braga conceived the story, Menoskey wrote the script)
Distant Origin
Scorpion I and II
Year of Hell I and II (I praise them for almost everything except the ending....) and
The Killing Game I and II

Maybe its good that their not doing the Season Finale together. They appear to have hit their peak with Distant Origin and Scorpion I and II and are in mighty need of a brake I'd say.

Maybe Lisa Klink and Ken Biller ought to try and write a script together... :-)

Martha -- 5 Mar 1998, 9:00 AM

I feel the episode that had such a great premise fell flat.

Dislikes:

1) Inconsistent Hirogen. First indomitable hunters, rather be sucked into a black hole than give up their prey. Second, thinking hunter,wants to lead his people into a viable, still hunting, but productive lifestyle. Third, indomitable hunter, disobeys hierarchy in order to maintain the hunt. Fourth, hunter who gives up while still able to hunt.

2) Accents. Janeway started out French and immediately lost it. The head human German started out German and ended English.

3) Makeup. The second Hirogen had noticeably different makeup in the second hour than in the first.

4)Cross-species holograms. Why were the Talaxians and humans in a Klingon holosimulation Klingon--while Klingons and Talaxians in a human world Klingons and Talaxians and not human?

Likes:

Everyone looked fabulous. Aside from Tom and Chakotay's hair, forties hairstyles really complemented the women. I think B'Ellana should keep hers, deciding that would be the one good thing to come out of that Holodeck.

The laugh a minute bartender Tuvok. You can just see the happy inebriated people flocking to hear his banter "Your desire for absinthe at your state of intoxication is illogical."

Eric -- 5 Mar 1998, 2:32 PM

Martha, I thought they explained the Alpha Hirogen...He is well, a smart Hirogen!

Just look at some of OUR great leaders. They act differently then us after all!

I thought the actor who played him did a bang-up job showing a thoughtful Hirogen.

Diane -- 5 Mar 1998, 9:56 AM

Keep Kate's Hair the way it was in Killing Games.

Now for some more of my "Rants and Raven's"

FUN! FUN! FUN!

Haven't felt this excited about a Voyager show in a long, long time. Harry Kim was finally written like an adult and not a dufus. Last time viewers were treated to this pleasure was in The Chute, and that was two years ago. Garrett Wang portrayal was well done. Ethan Phillips played Neelix especially well this week, jumping from and intelligently written French Maquis messenger to a fierce Klingon to just Neelix.

Enjoyed Mulgrew performing Catrin as a combination of Rick in Casablanca and the MC in Cabaret.

TPTB must be reading this board, they answered Mrs. Mac's request to put 7 in real clothes.

Happy to see the little conflict Captain/7 conflict continued in this story. Some of you have expressed your tiring of this conflict. Well, I felt it added good dramatic tension to the story. But, I could only hope that this conflict would end here for I too am getting tired of "7," but, according to spoilers, it won't end here. I will complain to UPN at the appropriate time.

I enjoyed the irony of Paris calling the Nazi Second-In-Command a "Pig" after he insulted B'Elanna.

Fascinated by the segment where the Hirogen hunter is persuaded by a simulated Nazi Second-In-Command to go against his superior. What a vehicle to show the power of Hitler and his propaganda, or any leader who believes in "Ethnic Cleansing."

That brings me to the language used in the simulation, the 1940's slang. Biller and Menowski did a good job of recreating the feel of the 1940 with just the language. Chakotay calling B'Elanna "Honey" and Janeway "Gal"; the scene between Paris and B'Elanna discussing what happened after the letters stopped; B'Elanna calling Paris "Bobby" (I wonder how many times people call him that, even thought he goes by Robbie); and Paris spewing off to 7 all the 1940 GI come-ons. It was fun.

The Story and message: WOW! Now that the Hirogen arc is complete, I see where the producers were taking us. From the caves to today. The arc started with just two "Hunters", then expanded to a community threatened in "Prey", then to the Voyager crew acting as Hunters in "Retrospect," and then it ends up with "Hirogens, Klingons, and Nazis, Oh My!"

All cultures that had started in "caves." Let's see, the Klingons progressed to "honorable" warriors, Humans into Starfleet, and Nazis went back into the "caves" (of the Internet). That leaves us with the Hirogens, who are symbolic of us, on a crossroads of where we will turn to relieving this "hunter" tendency.

My only Rant: I wanted Paris to deck the Nazi, then when about to go for the kill, the Nazi would disappear because of the simulation overload. Would have been much more satisfying and poignant.

My favorite line from the Doc to Neelix: "They're Klingons, not kittens!"

What can I say, I inherited optimistic genes from my Dad.

Eric -- 5 Mar 1998, 2:37 PM

I liked the Nazi 2nd in command speech also...

Not only did it work well in the story, but that guy could ACT! He really showed the power and charisma the Nazi's had.

Diane -- 5 Mar 1998, 6:42 AM

Marie -- 5 Mar 1998, 3:48 PM

"The Nazis went back into the caves (of the internet)" Interesting points about the Klingons, Humans, and Nazis. If only the Nazis did go back to the caves of the internet. I kept thinking, while I watched this episode, about the Nazi compound less than an hour from my town and the parade this group of Nazis plans to hold in the middle of a neighboring town next month. Unfortunately, the mayor of that town had to grant them a permit because people in this country have a right to free speech and a right to assemble--rights that these neo-Nazis would snuff out for everyone else.

I do wish the writers had gotten into more the moral issues and evil related to the Nazis, rather than making them simply a battle opponent in a series of skirmishes. There were a couple of good scenes, that took the master race issue further--specifically the scene with the Hirogen leader and the second in-command, and the one with the Second and the

Hirogen who killed the leader. In fact, those were the two shining moments in an otherwise uneven and overly-long episode.

On a lighter note, at those times when I did get bored with the fight scenes, I kept thinking that Janeway's hair looked so much more attractive in the styles she wore in this episode. I also wish they'd get rid of the soccer mom look she's been sporting this season.

Diane -- 5 Mar 1998, 4:02 PM

Nazi Caves:

Marie,

The point I was trying to make with the Internet Cave comment was that this is where they seem to group. Ironically, there was a report on NPR this week stating that because of the Internet, Nazi groups have grown--it is frightening. Anyway, these groups will emerge in a town, have a parade, try to cause trouble. Before they do that, they have organized themselves quite well, via the internet. I saw it in one town, but the parade backfired. All the stores closed, the town held a children's picnic in a park away from the parade, and no one showed up for the parade except some marchers. Maybe your town will be this lucky.

I thought the writers did do a good job getting into the immorality of the Nazi, especially with that Kapitan speech. Maybe the writers had more, but the scenes got edited.

Eric -- 5 Mar 1998, 2:22 PM

Janeway gets killed, Voyager makes a killing!!

Two words : Kick A$$!!

Three words : Kim didn't suck!

Ok, now that that's outta the way, let me say that due to Killing Game kicking so much booty above and beyond the call of duty, I hereby forgive TPTB for Retrospect. Just so I never EVER have to watch it again.

Jeri Ryan : I want you, your voice and that dress to report to Boston on the double!! (Oh and bring the catsuit to!!)

TPTB : Thank you for killing Janeway again! She hasn't died nearly enough this season, compared to season three. (next time can Seven kill her?? Please?????)

Things that rocked :

1. Seven of Nine

2. Foundation Imaging!! I'm STILL not worthy!!!!

3. The Writers!! Wow you guys CAN tell a story!!! Cool!!

4. Harry Kim!! Way to go dude!! I never knew you had it in you :-D

5. Seven of Nine singing (BTW, she was singing to me!! I know this for a fact...)

6. Janeway! Wow she can be a Captain!! She REALLY can, when she wants to. And I just get all choked up with emotion when she dies (all the GOOD ones) :-)

7. Beta Hirogen was cool going all splat like that when Janeway nailed him!

8. Seven with a GUN!!!!!! WooooooHOOOOOOOOOOOooooooo!!

9. Seven with her hair!!! WooooooooooooHOOOOOOOOOOOOooooo!!!

10. Seven and Tom! I never would have thought those two could work together but they proved me wrong.

Things that stank :

1. Very little but I do have a warning to TPTB. The Janeway/Seven duel is fun and all, but PLEASE don't overdue it. Lets have them work together for awhile ok? THEN Seven can mount Janeway's skull on her trophy rack that the Hirogen let her use!!

Martha -- 5 Mar 1998, 2:27 PM

Eric, Seven looked fab in the dress but...Did you notice that some of Seven's figure seemed to have stayed with the catsuit? :)

Fliteman -- 5 Mar 1998, 2:38 PM

Yup, I definitely noticed that...Um... well, I mean, I just sorta noticed, I wasn't, y'know, STARING or anything....

Honest.

How 'bout her eyepiece? I thought at one point when they were showing a close up, it looked crooked... and was lifting up on the edges. Faulty Borg doohickeys...

Eric -- 5 Mar 1998, 2:50 PM

Sorry Flite I must have missed her EYES! Mine were looking elsewhere :-)

Lol, Martha!! But there is a simple explanation for this...

Wonder Bra's with the nanotech repulsor lift cups were not invented until the 24th century :-)

That's OK tho' Jeri would look good in a potato sack!!

SuzyQ -- 5 Mar 1998, 5:57 PM

I just thought black was a slimming...color for both Kate and 7. Kate looked positively teeny in her black outfit.

BTW, can someone here answer 2 questions:

1) What was 7's name in the holoprogram? I think Katrin said it once but I missed it.

2) Was 7 shot at the end? I thought she was when she fell back and dropped the photon bomb. But, then she's later shown as walking away without assistance. Wha' happen? My mistake or inconsistency?

Eric -- 5 Mar 1998, 6:21 PM

Suzy she was shot but it was in the shoulder...and, as we know, in Action and Sci-Fi shows that's only in a flesh wound :-) Besides, I'm sure Seven's nanododads can fix that up easy :-)

Mike D -- 5 Mar 1998, 4:05 PM

Hey, wait a second, Eric,......I thought we agreed to lay off the Janeway hate jabs for awhile. You made reference to killing Kate just a wee too many times there, buddy (at least three times). Your cruising, Whippersnapper ;^). I'll say this though, I was not impressed with Kate in this one, at all. If she keeps losing the ship to the enemy this way, I won't be able to defend her anymore. I can't imagine Kirk or Picard losing the ship as many times as the writers show Janeway doing it. It's just not fair. I also hated watching her run in fear for her life.

I'm getting tired of the Seven's magic Borg technology lines like "I have improved these primitive weapons using BORG technology". I'm sick of hearing about the Borg. I also agree it's time to give the rebel Seven versus mommy Janeway bit a rest for now. I'm sick of it too.

Seven did sing good, I'll give her that much :^). She'd make a great torch singer, or what ever they call that sultry type of night club singing these days. Did you ever see Michelle Pfeiffer in 'The Fabulous Baker Boys'? WOW!!! Ryan could have played that part well too, but Pfeiffer was great.

I didn't like this episode. I was all set for two hours of Voyager excitement, instead I found myself looking at my watch and waiting for it to end. My wife felt the same way. Believe it or not, this was the first time I started to fall asleep while watching a new Voyager episode. I thought the whole show was ridiculous and lame.

Marie -- 5 Mar 1998, 4:15 PM

Janeway half-limping, half-running...down the corridor, with the Hirogen behind her, then beggin him not to kill her---yes, Mike, that was a definite low point in the continuing Janeway saga. I just felt depressed watching her. There was nothing dignified or captain-like about her retreat. And you know what occurred to me? TPTB would *never* have done that to Kirk, Picard, or Sisko. Even when Picard was tortured by that Cardassian Gul, he was shown with more dignity.

Honestly, I'd have to say that the only thing I truly enjoyed in that episode was Jeri Ryan's singing. It's not bad. I was also reminded of Pfeiffer in "The Fabulous Baker Boys." I'd pay good money to be able to sing like that.

Mike D -- 5 Mar 1998, 4:31 PM

Marie, about that one scene...I think when Kate was begging not to be killed, it was part of her plan to get her hunter into position where there was no holo-emitter(so he would lose his weapon). But still, I hated seeing her resort to running and begging for any reason. It's getting hard to be a Janeway fan {sigh}. I'm ready to start a support group :^(

Mrs. Riley -- 5 Mar 1998, 4:38 PM

I'll join...I agree that scene did not appear to be Janeway at her best. But look at it this way: A weakened, injured and unarmed Janeway duped and destroyed a clearly stronger, armed Hirogen. Is it possible that we have our expectations just a little too high?

Tracy -- 5 Mar 1998, 6:47 PM

My thoughts exactly!

Mrs. Riley said:

A weakened, injured and unarmed Janeway duped and destroyed a clearly stronger, armed Hirogen.

Is it possible that we have our expectations just a little too high?

That's right. She weighed her options, and chose to give herself time. Only a fool would have tried to attack the Hirogen, unarmed. She did what any sane person would have done. Heck, she did what I would have done. And I'm not the quickest thinker on my feet.

So, Mike, Janeway was wholly redeemable in this ep, IMHO. Sometimes we want the reckless hero so much, we aren't willing to accept the thinker.

Jules -- 6 Mar 1998, 10:17 AM

Count me in too...It's interesting that Mrs Riley should raise the issue of over-high expectations, because I've been looking at Season Four's Janeway from the exact opposite perspective.

Now I'd read an awful lot about Season Four by the time I actually got to see the first half of it. And I'd heard all of this talk about Janeway's bad decisions, bad leadership, bad captaincy... all of which saddened me since she's one of my favourite characters.

And then I saw the episodes, with rock bottom expectations, and what did I find? Things weren't nearly as bleak as the picture I'd been painted. There are a few specific actions and speeches I have problems with, but isn't that always the case for any character? I'm sure if they really tried, even Andy and Eric could find the odd moment where Seven was below par in their estimation!

Actually, I think the one moment that stands out in my mind where Janeway has disappointed me this season is in Random Thoughts. But it isn't really concerning her failure to break in and rescue B'Elanna - they did have diplomatic relations with the planet in question, and it therefore bears a much closer resemblance to the treatment of Paris in Ex Post Facto than that of Paris and Harry in The Chute. It would be interesting to know how Voyager would have reacted to the carrying out of Paris's punishment in Ex Post Facto if they'd been informed of it before it was actually carried out... I do think bowing to the inevitable where B'Elanna's treatment was concerned was the right thing to do - well, other than investigating like crazy to prove her innocence, that is! The thing they conspicuously failed to do though was to insist that someone from Voyager (probably Janeway and the Holodoc) should be present when B'Elanna's "treatment" was administered; both as a diplomatic courtesy and for the very practical reason that B'Elanna's physiology was alien to those undertaking the treatment and a little specialist input about the Klingon brain would seem necessary.

But I digress... the thing that really disappointed me about that episode was Janeway's speech in the ubiquitous "Seven moment" at the end of the episode. All that idealistic stuff about Starfleet and explorers and stopping to smell the roses along the way. She really ought to have known that it wouldn't work on Seven, who isn't a rose smeller by upbringing, and made her pitch more in keeping with her audience. She said it so much better in Caretaker, where she spoke of needing to make diversions to explore the possibilities of shortcuts and new technology, and acquire resources and supplies that they were running out of.

The need to provide plot complications in the course of Voyager's journey home requires that they do stop off and interact with other races along the way. The Caretaker explanation takes care of that perfectly, and has the additional merit of being one that Seven would have accepted. Exploration is irrelevant; starvation isn't. So, I blame the writers for not repeating the more convincing justification speech, rather than Janeway herself.

Of course, it's true that she does have a tendency to try to do everything herself, and needs to ease up a bit. She doesn't have time to be Seven's main mentor, for instance, though her input is definitely valuable as a secondary one. But she really ought to hand on her troublesome "child" to somebody else for the day to day supervision and learning.

I don't however consider her inability to fit in full time tutoring to an ex-Borg alongside her existing full time job as Captain as automatic proof that she's a failure at that job too though...

Mike D -- 6 Mar 1998, 10:42 AM

I understand, ladies, but...what I was trying to say is that the writers seem to like putting Janeway in positions like this where she loses dignity. I don't like seeing Kate's ship at the mercy of the enemy so often. I also don't like to see my heroes running for their lives and begging for mercy (even as a trick). If not for Kim, Seven, and the Doc, the ship would have been lost for sure. In TOS or TNG it would most likely have been the Captain who was the one responsible for initiating the plan to get their ship back. Call me old fashion if you like, but I like my captains to save the day, not run for cover :^).

You say "Is it possible that we have our expectations just a little too high?". I know what you're saying, but seeing Kate limping away, and then begging, just rubs me the wrong way, even if she was trying to buy time. I expect more from my fictional heroines.

I would also like to point out the contrast between how Janeway and Seven's characters faced death threats. Seven was willing to die rather than be forced to sing to please her captors (or perhaps loss her dignity). The writers found a way to make Seven's defiance pay off. Kate on the other hand was willing to sing. She ran for her life rather than die. The old Kate (e.g. 'Coda', 'Distant Origin') would have stared the Hunter into the ground and refused to run. I don't like the way Kate's character is being sacrificed at the expense of Seven's.

Carol -- 6 Mar 1998, 3:21 PM

Time to Sound Off to UPN:

Diane wrote --- Mike, I am noticing the same complaints about the Janeway/7 characterizations. Even though production has just about rapped for this year, and from what I have read, we are in for more 7 saves the day episodes, I think it is time to get e-mails off to UPN.

I know I plan to put something together. I complained about the vulgar promo for Retrospect, and it was changed by the repeat showing Voyager. I think they got lots of outraged posts. Maybe even a letter to UPN's new president Valentine.

In September I attended my first ST conventions. Roxanne Dawson did make some politically correct comments about UPN and Paramount forcing the writers to add and do things they did not want to do. She felt the show would have more freedom and better results if it was syndicated. Then last week I read an interview with Andrew Robinson on his directing "Blood Fever." He apparently was not a happy camper, said Paramount and UPN had too much say in the production of Voyager.

So if they are the ones causing problems, and they are probably forcing the writers into this 7 situation, they should be the ones to get our letters and e-mails.

----END PREVIOUS MESSAGE----

My instinct tells me they probably won't listen. Why? Because their Studio and Network executive, not our receptive to letters PTB (say what you will about them, but how many shows do you know where the producers actually converse with the fans openly?)

Voyager's best hope is for UPN to be scraped and the show to be sent into syndication, which I've been screaming about since season two. I read the comment by Andrew Robinson -- it was surpirsing that he agreed to Direct Unforgettable considering what he had to say in regards to his directing Blood Fever. Sure, on a network the get a bigger budget to do things but the sacrifice for that is less creative control. I have no doubt that Voyager would be a completely different show if it hadn't been for UPN's interference.

Joe Menoskey came up with a nice idea for a episode -- fans online would write a episode in a kind of round robin form along with him (so he could monitor how the story was going and give input and feedback about what was acceptable and what wasn't) and then the episode would be made. It was a way to make the fans feel involved and get some new ideas and was very creative (IMO). So of course UPN vetoed the idea.

Anyway, I'd say address the letters to TPTB. It may or may not help but I think you might have a better chance.

As for the previews, write a separate complaint to UPN (since all that does fall under them). The cynic in me says they probably wont listen or change them unless thousands of people write letters compiling about them but it can't hurt.

Marie -- 6 Mar 1998, 3:30 PM

What Mike & Diane said...is right on target. I was getting ready to respond to what the rest of you said, but Mike expressed my sentiments exactly. His point about how Seven faced death compared to Janeway is particularly good. TPTB should not put Janeway in undignified positions. As the Captain, she of all people must respond in a strong and heroic manner.

Diane, I sent an e-mail to UPN about the Retrospect promo, and I think you're right: it's time to tell UPN that they're destroying Janeway's character, and with it, the heart of Voyager.

I wonder if there's anyway the Trek people can move their show to syndication. If Voyager had been in syndication from the start, it might well have become a very different show, with a much better Janeway. Also, I think your post made a good point--that much as we rant at the writers, they *don't* have the final say over what gets written.

Eric -- 5 Mar 1998, 6:35 PM

Mike and Marie, I don't get it! I don't get you Janeway fans!! What do you WANT?? The reason I don't like her is TPTB usually make her a wimp, and easily fooled and unwilling to DO anything!!

But you know what? I liked her in Killing Game!!

1) She got her crew out alive.

2) She wasted any Hirogen in her way!

3) She never tried to blow up the ship!! Thank the maker!!!

4) She was wounded but tricked the Hirogen into a non-holo area!

5) She did not wimp out and killed the baddie at the end!

So...What do you WANT from Janeway?????

Carol -- 5 Mar 1998, 9:07 PM

Keeping and Loosing Control:

Mike said --

"I'll say this though, I was not impressed with Kate in this one, at all. If she keeps losing the ship to the enemy this way, I won't be able to defend her anymore. I can't imagine Kirk or Picard losing the ship as many times as the writers show Janeway doing it."

OK, I swiped this list off of Usenet last year when that very topic came up again after Displaced. I've updated it some to include Season 4 eps.

Janeway loosing Contol a lot is really not that much. She has only actually lost control of her ship seven times.

Kazon taken over in "Basics".
Life-size viruses running around the ship in "Macrocosm".
Saurians capturing the ship in "Distant Origin".
Nerians swapping places with Voyager's crew in "Displaced".
The Borg beam aboard and assimilate Cargo Bay Two and take the crew into Fluidic Space while Kate's in a coma during "Scorpion II".
The experimental aliens experiment on the crew during "Scientific Method"
Hirogen take it over during The Killing Game"

Now...let's compare her to Picard... not counting Q episodes (namely, no mention of series premiere "Encounter at Farpoint" et al. :-)

Picard losing control of the ship to a "drunk virus" and Wesley Crusher in "The Naked Now."
Bynars take over the ship when he leaves Riker in charge who leaves Wesley in charge of the bridge at spacedock.
Nagilum plays with the Enterprise inside a black void being in complete control of the Enterprise.
Picard is kidnapped and replaced with a double.
Picard is kidnapped and transformed into a Borg in "The Best of Both Worlds".
Data is called home with a homing device and takes over control of the Enterprise from Picard.
Picard loses control of the Enterprise to a "supermind" Barclay.
Disaster strikes the ship when a quantum filament strikes the ship.
Then right after Disaster struck, it struck again when Riker brought about "The Game"
Picard lost his memory and was being influenced by a Sartaaran, known as Kieran MacDuff, in a war against Lysians.
Picard loses control to Troi, O'Brien, and Data when the three are possessed by alien entities.
Picard is zapped by an alien-probe causing him to live an entire "other life" in "The Inner Light".
Picard gets turned into a child and Ferengi take over the ship in "Rascals". (This is my favorite in the category of "Stupidest way to loose a Starship" :-)
Picard is drafted into a special assignment and Jellico takes over command in "Chain of Command".
A holographic Dr. Moriarty takes over control of the ship forcing Picard to find a way for Dr. Moriarty to "leave the holodeck" in "Ship in a Bottle".
A group of terrorists take over the ship to get trilithium resin during a baryon sweep in "Starship Mine".
Temporal pockets put the Enterprise in danger and Picard must race against or is that WITH time to save the Enterprise.

So that's about Janeway 7 to Picard 17 (not counting Q episodes). So he's about ten up on her in that regard and she hasn't really lost control as much as people make it out to be ... also, I've coming to start seeing keeping "control" in Trek is really just a myth. No one really keeps it in order to make the story good. :-)

Next question now: How many ships has Janeway and Picard blown up? :)

Anyway, on the episode, I'm sorry to hear that not many liked it. That seems to be the consensus on AOL too. Was it the pacing (therefore the directors' fault) or the story (and Braga and Menoskey's fault). Seems that shooting on the Universal lot didn't help DS9 or Voyager....

Mike D -- 6 Mar 1998, 11:01 AM

Carol, comparing apples to pears....interesting stats, but how many episodes of TNG have there been to Voy episodes? Kate may still break Picard's record. I believe TNG was on the air longer than Voy has been so far. Also, I don't remember Picard ever standing on a planet with his crew and watching his ship fly away. Come to think of it I don't remember Picard's crew ever defying orders the way Kate's has, including Tuvok at one time. They came close to mutiny once.....OH MY GOSH....I'm turning into Andy.

Mike (I like Kate for what she should be and sometimes is, it's the writers I hold responsible. Does that make sense? ;^)

Eric -- 6 Mar 1998, 12:35 PM

Voyager writers seem to hate their characters...Are at least most of them!

Look at poor Harry Kim for example, frozen in time as the geeky Ensign for three years until "The Chute" then was re-set back to Teen Ensign for a year until "The Killing Game.

Poor Tom Paris, TPTB can't decide whether he is a "Bad Boy", a "Rebel", a "Ladies Man" or loyal friend. So he a little of bit of all of them that seems very irregular.

And Captain Janeway is the worst off. Is she a female James Kirk (season 1). A mother hen (Season 2 and parts of 4). Sigurney Weaver (Season 3). Or just a really bad Captain (Season 4).

The only characters they seem to like or HoloDoc and Seven who have had the most "good" episodes so far.

BTW, Tuvok may be joining HoloDoc and Seven soon, he has been getting as many good scenes as Seven this season!

Carol -- 6 Mar 1998, 2:03 PM

Someone on AOL did a mathematical equation of how many hours everyone on the show has had on screen this season (I don't have it with me right now so I can't post it), and Seven came in second and Tuvok came in fourth on the screen time average, with Janeway first and Doc third.

Harry came off worse as with a almost almost a 0 hour screen average with Neelix just above him. Janeway had a 19 hour screen average, Seven had a 9.something hour screen average and so on.

As for Janeway's problems, I posted that list because I don't think its fair sometimes the way people make it out that she has "lost control" of her ship more than Picard. If Janeway had lost her ship to a bunch of Farengi (though the Kazon in Basics was just as bad) we never would have herd the end of it, but Picard does it and nobody bats an eye. Also, by the time Janeway did "loose" her ship for the first time it was the end of Season 2/beginning of Season Three. Picard had already lost control of his ship numerous times during Season on and Two whereas Kate hadn't at all (say what you will about Season two and Basics -- and I could say a lot :-> -- but she never surrendered the ship once until the end of it).

As for people disobeying Picards orders Mike - I think Kate has had it happen to her almost a little more, though Picard was betrayed by Ro when she joined the Maquis, Worf and even Riker disappointed him once (I can't remember the ep for the life of me). Kate's had her trust broken three times by my count -- by Tuvok in Prime Factors, Chakotay in Scorpion and Seven in Prey.

Also, I could go on (and on) about how Janeway has been written as a "Captain of All Seasons" but it would be repetitive.

Mike D -- 6 Mar 1998, 3:16 PM

Thanks, Carol, I needed that...I feel a little better about Kate now. I'm glad to see someone stick up for her with the stats. Still, I feel the writers don't give Janeway's character the scripts she deserves. The first female starship captain that was studied in-depth, should have been given a fair shake and presented much better and with more respect. Janeway is becoming second banana to a sex bomb in a tight uniform. The averages you posted show that Seven is being overexposed in more ways than one ;^).

Terry -- 6 Mar 1998, 11:31 PM

I think that those counts are wrong. You're including many instances where Picard didn't lose control of the ship. For instance, getting captured by the Borg doesn't count as having the Enterprise captured. Neither getting re-assigned or getting hurt. In your TNG #5, 11, 12, 14, 16, and 17 examples, the Enterprise was not taken over and in #2, Riker lost the ship. So the count is more realistically about 10 in over 170 episodes.

And you missed some episodes where Janeway did lose control.

Cathexis - alien takes over Tuvok's body and seized control of ship. (Braga)
Persistence of Vision - mind-controlling alien takes over until Kes kicks his butt. (Taylor)
Deadlock - Vidiians board Voyager and run rampant, killing the crew until dup-Janeway blows the dup-ship up. (Braga)
Basics - Kazons with Seska. (Piller)
Macrocosm - macroviruses. (Braga)
Distant Origin - Voth. (Braga & Menosky)
Displaced - Nyrians with their long-range transporter. (Klink)
Scorpion II - Seven into fluidic space. (Braga & Menosky)
Scientific Method - bio-experimenters. (Klink)
Waking Moments - dreamers. (Bormanis)
The Killing Game (2 episodes) - Hirogen. (Braga & Menosky)

That's a count of 12 for Voyager for only 86 episodes. Voyager beats TNG by almost in half the time. Maybe we should include Q episodes. :) Especially bad is the increasing count per season: 1 in season one, 3 in season two, 3 in season three, 4 in season four. So far.

And guess who wrote six of those twelve episodes. A guy who has first hand experience with taking over from a female boss: Brannon Braga. No one else except Klink has has even two. Unless you count Menosky who has all of his in partnership with Braga. Come to think of it, get those two together and it's a miracle if Janeway doesn't lose the ship. Only three out of eleven Braga/Menosky episodes didn't involve the ship's capture. And one of those (Year of Hell) destroyed the ship.

Carol -- 7 Mar 1998, 4:23 PM

Well then...with Q that would be Picard 4 times (Encounter at Farpoint, Hide and Q, Q Who and Qpid) and Janeway O times (Q didn't take control either time he was on board Voyager during Death Wish or The Q and the Grey).

And I will take a little issue with #11 on the TNG list. IIRC in that episode Troi, Data and O'Brian held a large group of people hostage in Ten Forward and had some [degree of] control, even if it wasn't complete. If Waking Moments can count on the Voyager list (after all, the Dream aliens didn't really take control of the ship as it was all just a dream) then the Troi/Data/O'Brien terrorize the crew could count also.

I guess Braga thinks the ultimate insult to a control freak like Janeway is to keep making her loose control or something (I forgot Cathrix moreover because I didn't see the episode and there was some debate about Deadlock counting at all because it wasn't our Voyager that was taken over but a duplicate one that dosen't exist anymore. I'd say Deadlock should only count as maybe 1/2 :-).

Eric -- 6 Mar 1998, 3:32 PM

Mike you say that likes it a BAD thing!...NIM

----Mike D WROTE----

...I feel a little better about Kate now. I'm glad to see someone stick up for her with the stats. Still, I feel the writers don't give Janeway's character the scripts she deserves. The first female starship captain that was studied in-depth, should have been given a fair shake and presented much better and with more respect. Janeway is becoming second banana to a sex bomb in a tight uniform. The averages you posted show that Seven is being overexposed in more ways than one ;^).

----END PREVIOUS MESSAGE----

To the last I shall grapple with thee!!

Mike D -- 6 Mar 1998, 3:34 PM

I just don't see it, guys....are we looking at the same woman? Geesh, her face doesn't impress me at all. I hate to say it, but without the catsuit she's nothing to look at for me. Her buggy eyes aren't my type, they always look like she just put eye drops in them or something, and those Mick Jagger lips really turn me off. I prefer more petite and feminine features in a woman...someone who looks like... let's see...I know, KATIE or KES!

Attack me if you want, but I know what I like, even if I am out numbered. I'll take you all on, one at a time, or all at once ;^). Mike - The lone ranger (again)

Eric -- 6 Mar 1998, 4:03 PM

Mike D. exposed as Alien!

Reporter : How did you crack the evil conspiracy Eric?

Eric : Well I've always suspected due to Mike's usually high age!

R: True the DNA boys says he's at least 200 years old!

E : My GOD! Its worse then I thought!!!

R : But what gave him away?

E : He thinks Kate Mulgrew is better looking then Jeri Ryan!!

R : (Dead Silence)

E : This is only PART of the Aliens EVIL conspiracy to take over our world!

R : What can we do to save ourselves?

E : Buy lots of Jeri Ryan posters, I hear it drives them crazy!

Andy -- 6 Mar 1998, 4:04 PM

I'm sure that several of you are saying now, "Damn, I thought we finally shook that obnoxious, loud-mouthed bastard!"

Well fear not, the auditors are coming next week and after that I will surely have to pawn my computers to make ends meet until I find another job.

Mike, Mike, Mike. Since I'm not that far behind you age wise, let me in on something. When you hit 40, does your body cease producing testosterone? Do you start getting secondary female sexual characteristics? (big ;-))

Now, I will admit that when it comes to eyes, very large, almost to the point of exaggeration catch my attention. I like it when you can see the whites over and under the irises. And they are such a clear blue. Aside from her eyes, her other facial features are quite striking. The very prominent cheek bones, the pouty lips, the straight as an arrow nose. I think she is a classic beauty.

At this point I would normally make a comparison to your favorite actress but I'm afraid someone would have a brain hemorrhage.

As far as the catsuit goes, a while back I posted something on Psi Phi that noone took seriously, but that I stand by to this day. I think that among other things, the catsuit provides a very neat twist of irony that further adds to the characterization of Seven. Here she is, an almost exaggerated example of female physical perfection, but on the inside she is quite un-human, anything but perfect by our standards. That irony is really interesting. Her physical beauty draws attention to her inner imperfection. From that standpoint, think that it would be a terrible mistake to take her out of the catsuit.

If you read between the lines of Jeri's interview in the latest Starlog, you get the feeling that she realizes this.

Anyway, Flite and I may have to sneak you away from Elaine for a while to visit Club Paradise for a few lap dances you like you have never experienced and your outlook on femininity may change.....

Jim C -- 6 Mar 1998, 4:09 PM

Yeah, we're looking at the same woman...differently.

As they say, it takes all kinds. What you call "buggy" I call expressive. The "Mick Jagger lips" only turn me off if they're attached to Mick Jagger. I can just imagine those lips.......drool......I probably shouldn't go there since there are youngsters and other impressionable people present.

Like I said before, I sorta dislike the cat suit; it makes her look too much like the "Barbie doll ideal" and I'm like you, I prefer a more petite (though I wouldn't necessarily equate petite with feminine) woman. On the other hand, her enhanced chest aside, she has the perfect ".7 hip to waist ratio."

Mike D -- 6 Mar 1998, 4:53 PM

Boys, boys, calm down...I realize it's not your fault for being taken in by all the promotional hype. It was meant to get the *immature* easily guided male viewers to see Jeri like they wanted, and it's working ;^0. I, on the other hand, know a con when I see one. Katie has class, and classic features, not Jeri. Who cares if Kate is older, she's like a bottle of expensive fine wine aged to perfection and meant to be savored by a few connoisseurs (like me). Kate's ageless, and meant for real men who appreciate the finer things in life. Seven is more like a six pack of Bud light. Cheap and easy to promote to the average lug :^).

Someday when all the Seven hype dies down, you shmoes will take a clear look at Seven and realize that ol'Mike was right all along. As usual ;^) Mike - Come on, I'll take you all on. {boohahaha}

Jules -- 6 Mar 1998, 5:16 PM

Poor Eric...I really feel for you. But not too much; I'm on Mike's side in this argument!

Still, I think you're being paranoid about nothing. You've got a whole new thread all to yourself - what more do you want? I found it, didn't I?

Jules - (Who likes Seven - but liked the nine characters around whom the first three seasons were built too...)

Jim C -- 6 Mar 1998, 5:21 PM

Kate has class??!! She looked like she had gotten kicked OUT of class in TKG. Did you see that UGLY tuxedo? I bet she couldn't get a prom date at the correctional school for boys wearing that thing.;-)

SuzyQ -- 6 Mar 1998, 6:04 PM

The 7 Overdose: Many of you have been crying "Stop already!" with the 7/Janeway conflict, but I think the reason for all of Ms. Ryan's airtime may be a bit more basic - namely Roxann Dawson's maternity leave.

Before 7 came on board, it was *B'Elanna* who usually teamed up with Janeway to save the ship. With the cast change, 7's role as a fellow technowiz, and the nice coincidence that she happens to bring in the ratings, it's no wonder that 7 is featured everywhere. I'm sure as RD's pregnancy progressed, she wanted to cut down on those 12-hour days on the set, so 7 was used to fill in the time.

I understand the resentment that other characters are supposedly being shortchanged. But, with the glaring exception of My Darling Tom, I don't think that's true. Tuvok was everywhere in the beginning of Season 4, Chakotay has had more even-handed attention this year than any other; Doc had MiaB, Revulsion and this week's ep; heck, even *Harry* of all people is gettin' some good airtime. B'Elanna isn't featured as much because RD has had to cut back on her work hours.

When Roxann Dawson returns, I'm sure we'll find the focus distributed more evenly. And, I'm certain Jeri Ryan will like a little breather and time with her child as well.

Mrs. Mac -- 6 Mar 1998, 6:07 PM

Gosh, I hope you're right, SuzyQ. Mrs. Mac going thru B'Elanna withdrawal.

Marie -- 6 Mar 1998, 7:07 PM

What about Roxann Dawson...Hey, I'm at home, but I've got five kids running through the house at the moment, so I need an adult to talk to.

The fact is, all these women are attractive, just in different ways. I, for one, think Dawson is gorgeous. Who was it that ran that picture of her, sans Klingon makeup, a week or so ago? Mr.Mac? Terry?...She strikes me as a woman of warmth, intelligence, and depth--easily as lovely as Ryan or Mulgrew.

So why *are* you stuck at work on a Friday evening? Any theater or opera plans this weekend? Sometimes I really envy the life of couples in New York who have no children. Not that I want to get rid of my kids, just sometimes...

Mr. Mac. -- 6 Mar 1998, 8:48 PM

What about Roxann Dawson...Ho HO! You get no argument from me. I think Dawson is a knockout...and talk about eyes! She has a warmth about her that radiates. Charisma? Oh yeah.

Pegn -- 6 Mar 1998, 8:39 PM

What about Roxann Dawson...As I've said before, Mulgrew has great eyes (I like her eyebrows too) and an amazing smile. I really do believe that she and RDM (and not just because he's cute as a bug's as*, finer than frog hair, purdier than a bird's leg, etc.) convey so much with just the slightest facial expressions.

Diane -- 6 Mar 1998, 9:58 PM

Like a good half Klingon. . .Roxann Dawson returned to work 2 weeks after having a C Section birth. Now there's a woman! She probably has been working part time since the birth.

Supposedly, when Dawson announced her pregnancy during Day Of Honor, she threw a monkey wrench into the production. Apparently, according to Tell the World, Tell Robbie, McNeill commented that stories had been written about the PT relationship that involved a lot of heavy emotion stuff. Even Jeri Taylor commented on this. Then Rick Berman wanted to write the pregnancy into the storyline and both McNeill and Dawson registered strong objections. I think it had to do with the story "Before and After." McNeill commented at a convention about how upset he would get with how the baby was treated, even commented that during the birth scene Jennifer Lien's arm came down and whacked the baby and no one could calm the baby down. During the conversation, he kept saying things like "No, No way." I got off track!

She is supposed to be featured heavily in the Paris story Vis-A-Vis, which was filmed a week before she gave birth. I wonder if being packed into that 69 Camero back seat with McNeill had anything to do with her delivering? There's not much room if my memory serves me correctly.

Anyway, I hope the old B'Elanna returns next season. I miss her.

Carol -- 7 Mar 1998, 4:54 PM

All the women are quite nice...as are a lot of the men on the cast too. :-) I think John Odovor (the publisher of the Trek books) once commented on how good looking everyone on the cast was. I think all the women on Voyager are all beautiful, though I too think that Kate's eyes are nicer than Jeri's (though they both have incredible eyes IMO). Though at her worst sometimes Kate will look like she's just been starched and ironed, but Jeri will look like nothing more than a fake plastic doll to me sometimes also so I guess that's alright. :-)

Also, I think Kate has a really classic face. If you've ever seen pictures of her when she was in her early twenties she looks so much *younger* than she was -- like a teenager. She'll look just the same at 80 as she does now I'll bet, while I think Jeri's looks will most likely fade over time.

Roxann Dawson by comparison has a real exotic look about her with and without the Klingon makeup. For some strange reason, she sort of reminds me of Natalie Wood appearance-wise.

Marie -- 5 Mar 1998, 3:33 PM

The Redemption Of Harry Kim

--That's what I thought the title of this 2-parter should have been. Certainly the writers spent an inordinate amount of time trying to make Kim look intelligent and heroic; in other words, trying undo all the damage that's been done to Kim's character over the past two seasons.

Wang does a credible job, actually--far better than usual. I especially liked the confrontation between him and the two Hirogen. Kim with an attitude is a lot more entertaining than Kim the ship's resident idiot.

Given everything else the writers did with Kim's storyline, I found the scene between him and a clueless Tom aka Bobby, just plain dumb. When Tom asks Harry about Betty Grable, Kim clearly doesn't know what he's talking about. And given Grable's popularity, a German ally might well know. The question and the scene were silly, and Kim ends up looking dense.

If the writers want to revamp Kim's image, this shouldn't be a one-time thing. Of course, given Voyager's track record, Kim will probably be stumbling all over himself in the next episode, as he tries to talk to Seven.

Joyce -- 5 Mar 1998, 3:51 PM

Agree. Seems like Harry's at his best when his hair's mussed up. Shame they always want to keep him so tidy.

As for Marie's comment here:

"Given everything else the writers did with Kim's storyline, I found the scene between him and a clueless Tom aka Bobby, just plain dumb. When Tom asks Harry about Betty Grable, Kim clearly doesn't know what he's talking about. And given Grable's popularity, a German ally might well know. The question and the scene were silly, and Kim ends up looking dense."

*Too* true. The writers seemed to want to throw in a movie cliche scene (what, they didn't have enough already?), so just plopped this one in. Plain dumb, and it didn't make any *sense*! Here's Bobby, defending the nightclub. But now, here's Bobby, invading the bunker. But now, here's Bobby, defending the nightclub. *Huh*? What happened?

Terry -- 6 Mar 1998, 11:45 PM

I agree, Mike. Okay, maybe it's [The Killing Game] worth one paragraph. What a confusing mish-mash of a plot. I lost track how many times the Voyager crew was shot and captured. At least two to four times apiece. Tom, Chakotay, and B'Elanna has the stupidest dialogue and the worst hairstyles. Only Harry and Neelix had well-written (but small) roles and acted well. (Did I say that?) B'Elanna pregnant by a Nazi - yuck! Catrin's accent - cringe! A two-hour hour episode and the crew wins in the last three minutes - bull****!

Mrs. Riley -- 6 Mar 1998, 2:43 PM

Top Ten Missing Scenes from The Killing Game:

10) When Janeway got shot, do you suppose, oh, I don't know, that there might actually have been some BLOOD on her hand after she clutched the wound? (Don't tell, me, I know. It was a holographic wound, a holographic limp and holographic invisible blood.)

9) B'Elanna's holo-baby disappearing when the holo-grid was fried. (Now, THERE would have been a special effect!!)

8) The Doc, on participating in the Klingon simulation: "I'm a doctor, not an actor!"

7) Captain Miller/Chakotay telling Katrin/Janeway, "You sure are a gung-ho kind of gal. Maybe when this whole thing is over I could buy you a cup of coffee?"

6) Seven throwing a holo-grenade at holo-Germans and noting it was "A crude but effective simulation"

5) Better yet, Seven as a Klingon.

4) Harry, when challenged by Tom as to whether he was an American: "You know, I'm often mistaken for a blond-haired blue-eyed German. I HATE when that happens."

3) Tuvok to Seven when she refused to sing for the Hirogen: "Logically, singing would be preferable to death. Besides, I REALLY want to hear you sing again."

2) The first hour. (or, how the Hirogens took over Voyager).

1) The last hour. (or, how our heroes fought the Hirogen to a standoff)

You know, I watched the show again last night and it was much better the second time around!!

Marie -- 6 Mar 1998, 6:57 PM

Good ones, Mrs. Riley...Do you think maybe TPTB could hire a script editor, and she could catch glaring omissions and idiotic statements? Oh, wait; they have one. It's Lisa Klink.

Terry -- 6 Mar 1998, 11:45 PM

I agree, Mike. Okay, maybe it's worth one paragraph.

What a confusing mish-mash of a plot. I lost track how many times the Voyager crew was shot and captured. At least two to four times apiece. Tom, Chakotay, and B'Elanna has the stupidest dialogue and the worst hairstyles. Only Harry and Neelix had well-written (but small) roles and acted well. (Did I say that?) B'Elanna pregnant by a Nazi - yuck! Catrin's accent - cringe! A two-hour hour episode and the crew wins in the last three minutes - bull****!

I couldn't really tell from your comments whether you liked it or not. It looked okay (sets anyway) but a sensible plot would have been appreciated.

Who didn't know from the first ten minutes that the Hirogen second-in-command was going to betray his commander. A la Obrist in Year of Hell, Veer in Distant Origin. Or even Chakotay in Scorpion The dissension in the ranks seems to be a Braga/Menosky trademark just like Voyager getting captured or destroyed.

All of Janeway's and Seven's plans were complete flops. They kept getting captured and shot.

Terry -- 7 Mar 1998, 12:51 AM

But that was before they stopped treating the crew. At least one other crewmember had to die. The Hirogen doctor deactivated the EMH right after he said that a crewman would die if not operated on immediately. And then the Hirogen doctor ordered that no more Voyager crew be given medical treatment. Many more should have been killed. But I suspect that TPTB will keep the crew count at 148.

BTW, this brings up a major gripe with Voyager. They almost never show anyone except the senior officers. In all that holodeck action, no other crewmembers were involved, only the holoactors. I would have loved seeing Ayala as a GI or Wildman as a Frenchwoman in the background.

No, wait! Come to think of it, I did see both Jenny and Megan Delaney serving drinks in the cabaret scene. You know, the one where Janeway sings "Falling in Love Again" with a cane and her white MD tuxedo.

Terry -- 7 Mar 1998, 12:20 AM

Answers to some of SuzyQ's nit-picks: The Hirogen commander was not wearing his super-duper neutronium-proof Hirogen armor. He was interrupted in the Klingon hologram by the explosion and he was wearing a Klingon outfit. The Hirogen who killed him was wearing only a Nazi uniform when Janeway shot him.

The Doctor told Seven that her neural implant would be jammed soon after her entry into the holodeck, not immediately. Her implant was jammed in the middle of the song.

I usually like both Paris and Torres but I thought that the scenes between the two here stunk. (And B'Elanna's hair was the absolute worst!) In fact, most their dialogue separately was pretty bad. If the writer give Paris and Chakotay such cliched dialogue, the least they could have done was make it campy and fun. But they didn't.

The only really funny scene in the holodeck was when Paris was putting on his GI act complete with slang to Seven. "You got a problem with that, sister?" and all that.

Roxanne -- 7 Mar 1998, 12:51 PM

How the Hirogen took over Voyager.

By Roxanne

Janeway (to Hirogen Commander and 2nd): Welcome to Voyager. We'd like to show you around our ship. This is the bridge. This computer console gives us a general idea of what is happening on Voyager. Come with me and we'll show you how we spend our off hours.

Janeway leads them to the holodeck and opens the door.

Janeway: This allows us to have free access to any of the novels or history on earth and other planets of our federation and we recreate them to allows us some play time. Of course we have full safeties on them so we can't be hurt. Next we'll take you to sick bay.

They reach sickbay where the doctor is working on a tissue sample.

Janeway: We are particularly proud of our doctor. He is also a computer generated image. We lost our doctor when we first came to the Delta Quadrant and he's been active since then. He has also upgraded his program and is able to move around the ship with his holo-emitter. Next we'll take you to engineering.

When they reach engineering, Janeway introduces them to B'Elanna and does a quick tour around engineering. She then invites them back to her ready room. The Alpha Hirogen goes, but the Beta asks for permission to stay to see if he can use any ideas to upgrade their systems in their ships. Janeways grants permission and then instructs B'Ellana to give whatever help is needed.

When Janeway leaves Engineering, the Beta Hirogen promptly pulls out a phasor and blasts anyone in engineering whereupon he lowers the force field and allows the rest of the Hirogen to board. Harry is gazing intently at Seven's attributes and does not realize what has happened, and Tuvok is lost in a discussion of logic with a 3rd Hirogen.

Once the Hirogen are on board, they quickly overcome the crew and start the fun and games.

SuzyQ -- 7 Mar 1998, 3:27 PM

Thanks for the clarifications, Terry! And, I also thought the 7/Paris interchange was very funny precisely because RDM got so into it for those 5 seconds. My reaction to the crew's hologram characters paralleling their "real" personalities was mixed. On one hand, it seemed that their own tendencies and relationships with each other were so ingrained that it came out in the holodeck personalities.

But, as someone else mentioned, I think they missed an opportunity to have the actors do something completely different. I liked the Hirogen Commander and his story, which was a serious one. So, maybe the writers thought that in order to stay in a "serious" vein, they couldn't have Tom act quite so "40's" for most of the episode.

Vickie T. -- 9 Mar 1998, 2:50 PM

I rewatched The Killing Game this weekend. I know some people really liked it. Heck, I *wanted* to like it. In fact, after a few days passed, I found myself saying "Maybe you were too tired, or too distracted to fully appreciate the episode. I'll bet if you watch it again you'll like it better." After all, when you read the plot description it sounds so good!

Well, I rewatched most of it. Some of it was just too tedious to bear and I fast-forwarded. On the positive side, I must admit/agree that there were some really good parts. The opening scene *was* great. Neelix as a Klingon and as a Frenchman was great. The Doc was full of good lines. Even Harry Kim was, as many have pointed out, excellent (gasp!). Our darling Tom was as cute as ever. As someone else pointed out, Army fatigues were a good look for both Tom and Chakotay (but not the hair for Chak!).

So what was the problem? Well, for one thing, the pace was glacial, at best. For another thing, too much of the dialogue was just plain silly and pointless. Oh, and let's not forget the portions of the dialog that were pompous and preachy. The ending was abrupt (YAATE?) and downright ridiculous. If the ship is in a shambles and the truce has been called due to heavy casualties on both sides, why, oh, why, did everybody look so spiffy clean and cargo bay two nearly pristine?

You know, I really hate it when I dislike a Voyager episode. I *like* the show. I *like* (most of) the characters. I suppose that leads me to be unreasonably disappointed when they have an episode I don't like. After all, I guess no show can be perfect every week.

Terry -- 9 Mar 1998, 7:00 PM

Good idea about splitting up the crew. Someone on another list suggested that as well. She wanted to have Paris cast as Bridgette's obnoxious Nazi lover. If only some of the neural links were disabled, it would be like a First Worst Case Scenario with Nazi and no safeties. One thing that bored me about The Killing Game was that all of the characters acted like a corny version of their real selves. The best parts were when they acted a little differently than usual.

Andy -- 9 Mar 1998, 9:49 PM

We seem to generally agree, Vickie. I got Flite's tape on Saturday but have been unable to watch it all. What I did see was almost laughable. I take that back, some of it had me laughing out loud it was so bad. It seemed to me that the writers managed to stick just about every cliche out of WWII movies in this one. It is too bad because the premise was good and the appearance was nice.

I know Brannon Braga has his fans, but I personally think the man is contemptuous of Trek fans. I think he geniunely dislikes us--or resents us at the very least. I can offer no other explanation for the way he sometimes writes down to his audience. There are just too many examples of this to mention in this episode--and I haven't even seen it all. But like I told Flite, my main reason for watching was there in all her glory. You guys are right--JLR--doesn't have to wear a catsuit to look great. She was especially fetching in the little dress and beret.

Terry -- 9 Mar 1998, 10:43 PM

The Killing Game seems to have split the fans in different groups than usual. At least I found myself disagreeing with people I usually agree with. I was reading Jim Wright's review of this ep and I have to admit that the basic story sounds good in theory. He made a lot of the Hirogen commander's philosophy and ideas. He loved it. But I have to say that he really looked at this ep with rose-colored glasses.

But I find myself siding with you, Vickie, and G'Inny. The story seemed ridiculous at times. I was mouthing "Bull****, bull****" during the final fifteen minutes. Two nasty battles were fought in this ep but both were off-screen. Frankly, I didn't think much of anyone's acting here, either. Did Janeway outthink and outfight the Hirogen? No, she just got lucky. She got captured, stabbed, shot, captured, etc. Paris gets his butt kicked by Nazi boy. (Just when was the last time a Voyager crewmember managed to win a fistfight anyway?) Even super-Borg, Seven, manages to wipe out a whole mess of holographic soldiers - all on her side.

What was that cease-fire all about? With the commander dead and Voyager badly damaged, the Hirogen just abandon ship and blow Voyager to Kingdom Come. How many times can Braga demolish the ship with heavy casualties but next week, it's fixed with the same size crew?

I'll probably enjoy it more on a second viewing. Individual scenes were unintentionally funny or visually interesting. But I won't take it seriously except to laugh at it. All style and confused substance.

Andy -- 9 Mar 1998, 11:26 PM

I'll beat my usual drum. I just have a terrible time with fiction that plays so fast and loose with history. For instance, in this episode, if I recall correctly, we are told that American forces are just a short distance away--a couple of days? We are then supposed to accept that the the occupants of the French town are pretty much living life as usual. The German soldiers are spending their evenings in nightclubs and collecting art. Huh?

You don't have to be a student of history to realize that the Germans would be either taking drastic actions in preparation for a fight or, more likely, running like hell. Certainly that is what the civilians would be doing.

I don't know, maybe I'm picking nits, but is difficult to take an episode very seriously when the premise is so utterly ridiculous.

Joyce -- 10 Mar 1998, 1:40 AM

My problem with this episode was that they spent almost the entire two hours rehashing old war movie cliches, but entirely left out the *real* story, which was how did they lose the ship, and how did they get it back.

And while it was interesting to learn something about the motivation of the opponents, they entirely blew it at the end. We learned about the head Hirogen, and his plans to rebuild his civilization, and his number two man who opposed him because he was sold on the honor-of-hunting/warfare stuff. So there's some philosophies in conflict.... But then *both* these guys got blown away, and Janeway finally arranged a truce with a *new* Hirogen character, who comes in out of nowhere, and whom we know nothing about!

So you're left just scratching your head and talking about the cool costumes.

Mrs. Mac -- 10 Mar 1998, 7:04 AM

Joyce mentioned the conversation between the head Hirogen and the number 2 man. I remembered thinking that the conversation could have been from the mouths of Janeway and Seven instead. There were other parallels as well. The Head Hirogen wanted to "play the game out" because it was an opportunity to learn and grow, while number two wanted to jump right in and plaster the preys hide on the bow of his ship...Mrs. Mac (on topic for a change)

Diane -- 10 Mar 1998, 7:27 AM

I'll beat my usual drum. From your comments, Andy, I guess you don't like the movie "Casablanca"? Now, I am not comparing Voyager with this classic, there is no comparison, but this movie played very footloose and fancyfree with what was going on in Europe and Northern Africa. Come to think of it, Hollywood is know for rewriting the truth.

With your comments about the Germans collecting art, Hitler and his buddies "violated" Europe, specifically, Russia and France, and the art owned by German Jews. The German government is still finding hidden treasures. There are many controversies in the art world currently over this issue, and there are many suits being filed in the World Court by private citizens and governments over who "owns" the art. I guess this is why I liked this episode, it was a satire on WW2 and pre-WW2 Movies, it gave a history lesson, and it did what ST is know for, it had a little message.

Andy -- 10 Mar 1998, 8:38 AM

I love Casablanca. And I'm not sure that it really butchers history. As a matter of fact, it does a pretty good job of showing how the Vichy French authorities behaved in those days. I guess I wasn't clear with my post. Yes, the Nazi's were famous for stealing art in the various countries they occupied. And for the most part, the garrisons in France had a grand time during the occupation. The French were wonderful hosts. Hell, the French government even helped the Nazi's round up Jews.

But after June of 1944 that all changed. My beef is that this episode shows the Nazis acting like they would have in the pre-Allied invasion days. If, in fact, the American forces were on the doorstep of the town chances are the civillian population would have either fled or hunkered down in their basements. The Germans would be preparing a defense or, more likely, running like the dickens. If the show had taken place prior to D-Day it would have been a lot more believable. Like I said, this probably amounts to nit-picking on my part, but these sorts of things bother me. Ruthie, MEG, if I'm wrong, feel free to correct me.

Vickie T. -- 10 Mar 1998, 9:06 AM

What if the Hirogen chose another earthly war? Good question. This thought occurred to me while I was watching TKG, mostly because just a couple of weeks ago we went to a big Civil War re-enactment. Given the Hirogen's love of looking their victims in the face, it seems to me they would have prefered the holodeck versions of more "primitive" warfare, battles where the two sides march up and look each other in the eye before proceeding to try and kill one another.

I admit that I was shocked at the battle tactics I observed during the Civil War re-enactment. I guess I grew up on the Vietnam War on TV, where battles often seemed to be conducted from a distance: dropping bombs, artillery shells flying across fields, and shooting at fleeing figures hidden in the trees. I know that is probably an unrealistic vision, but that's the one floating around in my memory. Anyway, the Civil War battle tactics presented at the re-enactment often involved two lines of soldiers marching up to within 40-50 yards of one another and just standing there blasting away at one another. As I said, it seems to me that the Hirogen would have prefered a more "up close and personal" kind of war than WWII, one with lots of sword slashing, battle axe swinging and war club bashing. I also agree with the suggestion that it would have been more interesting to see the crew fighting on *both* sides of the war.

Ruth -- 10 Mar 1998, 10:49 AM

I love Casablanca. I was afraid you were going to ask, Andy. When I teach WWII, I tend to spend a lot of time on the build up to US entry into the war, then go to the homefront and the impact the war had on the US during the 40s and into the post-war years. Somewhere in there we get D-Day and the Japanese surrender, and sailors are kissing nurses, and baby booms are starting all over the place. I guess the Voyager crew might have liked it if post-war lust had been part of the experience. Or maybe it was, and that was part of the stuff that was glossed over in that last two minutes. :-) Anyhow, I don't spend a lot of time on battles or military strategy.

However, in my earlier review of TKG, I said there was something I wanted to back and check, and this is what I was talking about. I wanted to watch Episode One again, to see if the Germans really seemed as unconcerned about an imminent American attack as they seemed to be when I watched it the first time. I still haven't, but your comments seem to confirm that this was the case. First let me say that a) I was one of the people that thought this episode was fun; b) as I have stated before, although maybe not here, some dramatic license doesn't bother me all that much.

But, both in the context of the story and history, it doesn't make sense that the Germans didn't expect the attack. I would think the Hirogen would want the Nazis to be prepared to repel the Americans because there would be more bloodshed on the Allied side (this assumes that none of the ship's crew were assigned roles in the German army, and they would be the ones blown away). Second, and I may be showing my ignorance here, I don't think there were any kind of US ground attacks in France prior to D-Day, just bombing raids, so this would have to be taking place after that. And I agree, Andy, after D-Day, the Germans were *very* concerned over future attacks, and would have been in preparation mode.

I've also been considering the question of having our happy crew on opposite sides of the conflict. At first I fell into TPTB mode: how could Our Darling Tom be heroic/sympathetic if he was trying to kill Chakotay or B'Elanna? But that's the point, isn't it? It would have been chilling to see RDM being outwardly charming to B'Elanna, and then going around ordering the execution of crew members on the Allied side. One of the things I liked about the episode was Janeway's interaction with the crew after she got her memory back, b/c it was a little different from normal. Having the crew take on totally different personas, and then remembering them (ala Kes in Warlord, Eric) would have, I agree, been much more interesting.

TKS [Toni] -- 10 Mar 1998, 11:17 AM

I'm sorry I'm relatively new to this board, but I am looking at this episode as well as the entire arc. I'm sorry, I have had to read all the posts now so as not to be spoiled, now I feel I can speak, as I saw the show last night. I am very grateful that someone is so kind to tape it for me. Yes, you could say it was loose with history, and as someone pointed out before Hollywood is generally loose with history. Look at what Disney did to Hunchback of Notre Dame. I can remember laughing as I said hello Officer Street in Casablanca.

As for Voyager, I believe it was Peter that observed the sign on Nazi headquarters, and someone else noticed the literary significance of the sign. With that in mind, I shall proceed. I noticed that for much of the episode the set was very dark, the cloths were dark. I noticed as the Nazi spoke to the second the set was also very dark. The second in my opinon without saying anything spoke volumes. His eyes told us what he was thinking. The Alpha Hirogen wanted his people to change, as they feared extinction, and died at the hands of the second. The second couldn't see beyond the hunt, and Janeway killed the second. Janeway makes a peace offering to the nameless Hirogen, and yes, we are left to scatch our heads, because we don't know what the Hirogen will do with their prize.

"The Killing Game" made me realize that it is a fine line between civilization and savagry. A very fine line indeed, Why else would the Nazi bring up the fall of Rome. To be honest though I think I assertained the meaning of the entire arc, when I watched "Retrospect". "I have seen the enemy, and he is us." Well I realize that this is somewhat simplistic, so forgive me.

Martha -- 10 Mar 1998, 12:25 PM

But the Hirogen are the Hunters! I thought the point of the Holosimulations for the Hirogen was to put the crew in various situations so they could be hunted by the Hirogen. Why put the crew on opposite sides? The Hirogen didn't want to see the crew fight amongst themselves.

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