Retrospect

Eric -- 25 Feb 1998, 8:27 PM

With Retrospect Voyager insults Rape. Instead of the usual episode review I am going to attempt to explain why I think Retrospect was one of, if not the worst Voyager episode ever. I will also try to explain why it gives Science Fiction a bad name. Rape is a terrible crime because almost always it almost ALWAYS comes down to he said/she said. There is almost never physical proof (besides wounds to the victim). What I am trying to say is there is almost never a "magic bullet" that can solve the crime easily. I'm not sure about the rest of the country, but Rape is the one crime here in New England that we are having trouble beating. This brutal crime touches almost everyone, even if its just indirectly. Homicides, drugs, vandalism, they are all down. But not rape.

Retrospect was a chance for Voyager to tackle a deadly serious issue. It was a chance to show everyone that they a serious TV drama. They failed in almost all counts. In date rape, the absolutely WORST thing to do is blame the Victim. At the end of this awful episode, Seven was blamed for coming forward, For having the courage to accuse her attacker. This is a awful trudge that happens way to often. Here is Massachusetts we have finally released law that is called the Victim Protection Act that helps this very problem.

It is hard enough to understand why Voyager aired this "blame the rape victim" episode, but when Rape is the fastest growing crime in America right now (BTW did you know that less then 20% even get reported due to fear) the question becomes, why did they air the story of a FALSE RAPE? Does Paramount really want to tell victims of rape that they will be humiliated for bringing testimony against their attackers?

I think we should also ask is this what we as fans want from our favorite show? This comes down to me, you and everyone else. I think this was the first time I have watched a episode of Star Trek and was both embarrassed and sickened by what I saw. Am I crazy? Did I totally misunderstand what TPTB were trying to say? Please tell me I'm wrong if this is the case. I will fell better if you do, trust me. Because what I saw tonight made me ill. I look forward to your replies.

Peter -- 25 Feb 1998, 9:27 PM

I was disappointed that I rushed away from a nice dinner because I wanted to see that show ... and then that .... Maybe I have not these strong thought that you, Eric, has. But I was not amused by that episode at all.

a) it was not Trek, it was a not solvable situation with an ending that left all with a funny aftertaste

b) another morale episode ... how do we teach and spoil Seven ?! .. The Doc was the cliche of that person talking someone in that situation.

c) the whole topic is very horrible.. I did even think more about child molesting in that case than 'just' 'only' rape .... There have been many cases in Europe where 'the situation' ended bad for both, the 'victim' and the 'attacker' .. just because some social worker thought he/she had to come to the rescue and talked this stuff into the kid ...

This whole thing is a very serious topic and I am not saying here that either one or the other is right (as Eric puts it 'He said / She said'). My bottom line is.. I don't enjoy watching this on Voyager and 2nd, I did not like the way they dealt with it at all ... what do we see next .. Seven starts taking drugs to deal with the situation and the lost love of Momma Kathryn ? Seven on the brink of Suicide ? Her Revenge ??? hmmm, can I see MiaB again please ????

Jason -- 25 Feb 1998, 9:32 PM

I feel like I've been victimized *Thunk*, *thunk*, *thunk*. That was the sound of my head against the wall during this episode. Not only was it very TNG in structure, but the rape analogies were blatant and offensive. I objected to words like 'violated' in the context of not only the 24th century-- ('violated' sounds so much like a politically correct 20th century term) and it also seemed inappropriate coming out of Seven's mouth. Hello, this lady was once a Borg. It's a little late for her to start feeling violated because a.) Violate is what the Borg do b.) With no cultural perspective or standards of which to judge by, how does she know what 'violated' is? How does this word apply to her and her experience? It seemed very un-24th century.

The show couldn't decide whose side it was taking, Kovin's or Seven's. The lines were too muddy and the reactions of both the Doctor and Seven were clear shots at modern day rape victims and the typical, stereotypical activist. It seemed terribly unrealistic and most everyone in the show was poorly characterized. This episode was painful. Aside from a good J/7 scene in the beginning, it's a near total waste. I was looking for a blunt object. Not to use on myself-- to throw at the TV.

Congratulations go to "Random Thoughts", my previous choice as this season's worst episode, it's been displaced of that dubious honor by an episode which, coincidentally (or not) stole a healthy dose of plot nano-probes from it.

Mike -- 25 Feb 1998, 10:22 PM

Well, Eric, mark your calendar...cause this is the day that I agreed with you 200% on your assessment of an episode. I was going to say pretty much what you did, but you already said it so well. I was so disgusted with this episode that I do not even plan to write a review on it. The whole show just left me feeling empty inside. You know, Whippersnapper, I'm proud of you for what you just wrote. No kidding.

Marie -- 25 Feb 1998, 11:47 PM

The show was infinitely worse than...the promo. Lisa Klink and Bryan Fuller will never redeem themselves in my eyes. I can't believe they wrote this. Any woman who's ever been the victim of a rapist and watches this episode must be feeling something between absolute fury and despair right now. THIS is Star Trek? THIS is how Star Trek portrays one of the ugliest crimes in our society--by victimizing the victim and saying it's all in your head? Isn't it hard enough for women to tell people about attacks and rapes and be believed without shows like this essentially saying that women can't be trusted to know what happened to them?

I have more to say, but right now I'm coming down with a cold and don't feel particularly coherent. Eric, I wish I could say you were wrong about this episode. What were Fuller & Klink thinking?

Jim C -- 26 Feb 1998, 12:23 AM

A Different Take on This Episode. I have to agree on what everyone has said about this show concerning the rape analogy. I think rape is an even worse crime than murder. At least in murder the victim is not left to deal with the aftermath. I was VERY unhappy with this episode until the end. I began to see that there was a message, even though the message was nearly lost in the emotions of the greater wrong. The message was that sometimes remorse is a good, growing thing. It can teach us a painful lesson and also can give us empathy in the next similar situation. Unfortunately the writers chose a totally inappropriate story to convey this message. Now I'm just unhappy.

Roxanne -- 26 Feb 1998, 1:12 AM

There will be no Voyager song of the week this week. I was also offended by this show until the last scene with the doctor and Seven. Jim mentioned it in his post. The whole issue was about Seven and the EMH exploring their humanity and learning about negative and positive emotions. The scene with the doctor and Janeway also helped to redeem this show when she said she would not turn back time because of a mistake, no matter how serious. How many times have I wanted to turn back time and relive an incident!

However they could have done this without the rape inferences. I am grateful that I have never experienced that, but I think if I had, I would be offended and hurt by this episode.

Peter -- 26 Feb 1998, 8:07 AM

Was there anyway to save that show ? ... actually I come up with to things which may still have made a bad show, but at least an ending that we all could have better dealt with:

a) They found 100% proof that Kovin is innocent.. maybe with his escape he would find out that actually the magistrate was the bad guy and they implanted a wrong supressed memory. Kovin could have died a hero, the real bad guys could have been punished, Mama Janeway could comfort Seven

b) They could have given us proof THAT Kovin is guilty, than everybody would be on Seven's side again, she would have learnt something more about her emotional side , and Kovin's death wouldn't just feel stupid ... TPTB .. was it so hard ??? and... what had that promo to do with this show... actually a shame, JLR acting was great, the J/7 scene was really good, Kovin's acting was good. These nosepieces were .. hmm, they run out of alternatives slowly...

G'Inny -- 26 Feb 1998, 8:16 AM

Well, *I* feel incredibly alone. I didn't dislike it nearly this much. I certainly didn't feel like it was an insult to rape victims, but that may be because my office has represented clients whose lives have been ruined by accusations based on false recovered memories. I suppose, like every human experience, it really does depend on whose ox is being gored.

That said, I really didn't like this episode, except for those parts that I really did like. I am getting a little tired of the all-Seven, all-the-time aspect of the show. She's becoming Voyager's answer to Data--and, quite frankly, I got a little bored with him, too. And I totally agree with Jason's observation about this episode--it had TNG written all over it. Substitute Picard for Janeway, Data for Seven, and Troi for the Holodoc and voila! Vintage Next Generation. There is, however, one significance difference IMHO--and please forgive me if I offend anyone in making this postulation. If positronic brain technology had been stolen from Data, it is highly unlikely that as sexually charged a term as "violated" would have been used to describe it. It would have been considered a heinous act, but it would have been viewed as a gross violation of a sentient being's rights, and not as an allegory for sexual assault. Seven's gender obviously influenced the tone and subtext of this episode, and that really bugged me.

Here are some other things that bugged me.

GRIPES

--If there wasn't an assault or invasion of some kind, why was Seven so twitchy in Sick Bay? Is it really because of her Borg memories? They certainly haven't affected her this way before, and she's been undergoing exams from the Holodoc for some time now. I really hate this kind of red herring. The only redeeming aspect is that the Holodoc gets a dose of humility as a result, when he must acknowledge that her Borg neurology is still something of a mystery to him.

--Speaking of the Holodoc, where the heck did he get the data base and analytical algorithms to add a psychotherapeutic subroutine? I mean, just how big is Voyager's computer memory, and why would a ship intended for short missions have that comprehensive a psychological database, in the first place? Of course, it brings up an important question that has really been given remarkably shortshrift on the show--how competent is a hologram to program himself, anyway? Did THE DARKLING teach them nothing?

--I was a little uncomfortable with the whole issue of arms trade, but that's probably because I am, at heart, a 60's liberal Democrat. That instinctive reaction aside, in order for Colvin (sp?) to be able to offer Voyager valuable arms in trade, he would have had to be given access to a lot of information about the ship's defensive systems. For example, when he's working in Engineering with B'Elanna and Seven, he's given almost cart blanche access to weapons systems schematics. Is this wise? If he's allegedly capable of stealing Borg nanoprobes from Seven, what's to prevent him from stealing as much other technological information as he can carry away with him? And why, after the initial accusation was made, wasn't anyone worried about that possibility?

--I really hate the way Kathryn slumps in the captain's chair.

GRATIFYING BITS

--The whole theme surrounding the doctor's expansion of his program and his enthusiastic, if unwise and misdirected, pursuit of the cause of Seven's reaction in sick bay was both horrifying and riveting. He made all the classic errors in attempting to access Seven's supposedly repressed memories. He makes suggestions, planting ideas in Seven's mind, instead of allowing her to work through what she, does, in fact, remember. "He fired?" "Did they scan you?" And then he crosses an unforgivable line (it would be for a human therapist, anyway) when makes the Borg/individual comparison vis-a-vis her status as a victim. He points out that she would have been stronger, would have been able to resist victimization, if she were still part of the collective, and that Colvin actions are more egregious because she is now an individual and weak. Excuse me? Assimilation by the Borg is the ultimate victimization of the individual. Frankly, what Colvin is alleged to have done pales in comparison. But therein lie some very provocative dramatic possibilities. I wouldn't even mind a few more Seven epsiodes, if TPTB were to follow through on the idea of Seven's emerging individuality and her increasing awareness of the vulnerability and uncertainty that is an inevitable consequence of being an individual. The Holodoc then compounds his error by telling her that "when Colvin gets what he deserves, you're going to feel much better." How very Old Testament of the Doc--and how grossly imcompetent. But that's the a good thing about this episode--the Holodoc doesn't, in typical Star Trek fashion, miraculously take on the knowledge and wisdom that he needs to be a psychotherapist, just because it's dramatically convenient. He screws up, and he screws up big time. The even better thing about this episode is that he acknowledges his mistakes, feels genuine remorse for them, and attempts to minimize the possibility that he will ever again hurt anyone as badly as he has hurt Seven. I can't remember above who said it, but the final scene between the Holodoc and Kathryn really was excellent. The Holodoc has made great strides as an individual and as a healer, and what the ship has gained is worth the occasional mistake. More significantly, what the Holodoc learns as a doctor from his pain and failures and disappointments is as important as what he learns from his successes. That same theme was explored (somwhat more successfully in the overall story), in the context of his growth as an individual, in REAL LIFE.

--Inspector Tuvok leaves no stone unturned. I only wish I had access to this kind of investigation technology when I'm representing a client accused of sexual misconduct.

--B'Elanna was unexpectedly reasonable and even-tempered in her scenes with Seven, probably because she empathized with Seven's impulse to knock Colvin on his butt. What is it with Voyager women and breaking men's noses?

--Some good lines:

Holodoc: "It's a wonder you survived."

Holodoc: "I usually respond with a devestating quip, rather than a left hook."

Seven: "My mind is clear."

Seven: "I am undamaged."

Seven: "I am not afraid. I am angry."

Martha -- 26 Feb 1998, 8:16 AM

First the promo, now the episode... First UPN uses sexual assault as a teaser to get viewers and then the show has an extremely distorted message regarding reporting a crime against your person.

I think what bothered me most about the show was the theme that even being accused of a crime is enough to ruin one's life, and the not so subtle comparision to being accused of sexual assault. What options does this leave? By all means, let the victims keep silent. That, combined with the stong implication (never fully resolved) that Seven hullicinated it all, and we are left with the view of sexual assualt that was dominant twenty years ago.

As I said in another post, I am really bothered by the use of the "false accusation" that is the angle taken in most pop culture stories that touch upon rape.

Leonie Peters -- 26 Feb 1998, 9:02 AM

Whoa...Where did the Rape issue come up? All that was going through my mind was how close this episode was to "The Drumhead" in TNG. Yes Seven said that he had violated her. But he hadn't raped her. It was akin to if he had harvested her. Where was the rape outcry when the Vidiians harvested Neelix's lung? And we have to remember that everyone except Tuvok, believed Seven in the beginning, being human, they sympathized with the victim first.

I think that the inclination to make this a rape issue stems from the wording that was used and the fact that Seven is female. But I don't think that was what was being implied here. Even if that is what it was, it showed another side to rape that has to be considered. Sometimes people are unfairly accused of the hiddeous crime. I have as much contempt for any woman who called rape unjustly than a convicted rapist. Although a false accusation of rape may be few and far between it does happen. An innocent man suffers because of it, we all do. Because if I am raped (please God No!!) and my case comes up after a false accusation of it, what is most likely going to happen to me?, no one will believe me.

What I had really aggreed with the writers of the show was how we don't know who was right and who was wrong at the end. From the number of posts that I read so far, it seems everyone believed in the end that Seven was wrong and Corbin was innocent. We don't know that, he may have violated her. The investigation did not end in a conclusion, it ended because the accused was dead. It is one of the few treks where it mirrors real life, there is not easy, tied up conclusion to this. It ends messy and everyone is affected negatively by what happens. Everyone gets to see the true meaning of "the road to hell is paved with goodwill"

What I think was the main focus on this show was the fact that when it comes to humanity and emotions, one cannot muck about with them like experiments that will always have a conclusion based on evidence and facts. I think that this show was about the doctor's and Seven progress into humanity. Human beings are not drones or holograms. They are not programable and the right results and actions arise from the right programming. The doctor went into this thinking that if he wrote a simple subroutine into his program he could mend human emotions. Seven was his lab rat. Seven in part, having no adult experience in dealing with emotions, took her advise from someone that she thought was ahead of her in the becoming human process, the doctor. I was cringing at the scene when he incouraged her to express and feel her anger.

Janeway was in it too. She was weary from having to punish Seven all the time and she really wanted to show Seven that she did care about her even though her behavior said otherwise. She also was wrong, she jumped the gun.

Rape is not the issue here, who's right and who's wrong is not the issue here. The issue and the messages here is that being human, possesing strong feelings and having to wade through conflicting emotions is tricky and messy and can lead to disastrous mistakes. Seven's and the doctor's becoming human means that they have to learn, painfully like all of us, the responsibilites we bare for having feelings. But those feeling are integral to what it is to be human.

T'Racy -- 26 Feb 1998, 9:09 AM

A retrospect on, well, you know... I've only read a few posts, mostly because I'm pressed for time, and I agree with half the statements said, a disagree with the other half, it looks like. As a victim of an assault, I think Jeri Ryan did an exceptional job portraying the physical and psychological aftermath of an assault. Everything rang so true as I sat on my couch watching her. Rape is not just a one-time occurrence (even when it's not a sexual rape). A victim relives it over and over in their minds for the rest of their lives. It can effect who they are. The feeling associated with an attack like that never goes away. From a rape victim's perspective, it is always difficult to let yourself be vulnerable with anyone afterwards, much less carry on a relationship with a man. In fact, I still get the shakes when I see someone on the street who resembles the man who attacked me. Dog-gone-it, I have them even now, just thinking about it. (I can't believe I'm writing this...)

Anyhow, I disagree that TPTB treated assault lightly. To me there is always the potential for there to be two victims. The accuser and the accused. There have been many cases where the accused *is* innocent. Mistaken identity, and the like, is always a possibility. The theory that her experiences as a Borg were somehow incorporated in her mind to create a false memory is possible. There was no physical evidence to corroborate her memories, nor were there any witnesses. And, futhermore, the investigation was thoroughly and neutrally done.

No, Seven's feelings will never go away. She will always feel like something was taken away from her, and something was. Her innocence. I remember that shortly after it leaked out that a new character was coming to the Voyager cast, and that she was a Borg, we got into an in-depth conversation about how being assimilated was on the same level as being raped (come to think of it, it was me who made that statement). Now, this episode has become a case in point. I only wish that TPTB went more in-depth into how her memories of Borgdom could have lead to the false attack memories.

I was disappointed that the guy she accused died (can't think of his name offhand). It did leave too many other questions unanswered. And another thing: at least it wasn't YAATE - Yet Another Abrupt Trek Ending. There are effects that should be felt long after the time period this episode set in. Hopefully, TPTB will take the ball and run. I don't have the time to write a like/dislike review. Just wanted to share my thoughts.

G'Inny -- 26 Feb 1998, 9:31 AM

I'm no longer alone. I came to the same conclusion, Leonie. This is really a story about the Holodoc's development as a sentient being (even more so than Seven's development as an individual IMHO), in the face of a perceived transgression against the human dignity of a Voyager crewmember. It isn't about "rape", as that term is defined in criminal law--it's about alleged theft and physical battery and the rights of a sentient being to bodily integrity.

You make an excellent point about Neelix's lungs being harvested--that wasn't considered rape. It was theft. Also, it wasn't considered rape when that Vidiian scientist split B'Elanna in two, strapped her Klingon half to a table, and injected her with a disease in the hopes of developing an antibody that he would later forcibly extract from her body. As far as I'm concerned, B'Elanna ordeal was even more traumatic than Seven's--but her experience wasn't viewed as an allegorical rape. Personally, I blame Seven's use of the word "violated", because that term carries such a sexual connotation--and everyone twigged on the image conjured up by that term.

But this episode is also about the slippery slope that is "truth". Is truth what you can prove empirically, or is it what you believe within the context of your own personal reality? Seven proclaimed the crime with conviction, and Colvin certainly acted guilty toward the end, but the empirical evidence didn't seem to be consistent with the emotional reactions of these two people. When Colvin so overreacted to the Holodoc finding the nanoprobes and escaped to his ship, I expected a later revelation that this particular alien species had a harsh and unforgiving legal system, one in which he could not expect to be considered innocent, until proven guilty. That, at least, would have explained his panic. But we didn't get that. And we got no explanation as to why Seven was suddenly so jumpy in SickBay, when weekly examinations by the Holodoc were something that she had been undergoing for months, without any adverse reaction.

It's a very curious episode. It actually takes on greater depth and consequence, the more you think about it.

Mike D -- 26 Feb 1998, 9:35 AM

Leonie, the rape comparison was their fault... Leonie, I'd like to respond to what you've said.

Leonie said : "Where did the Rape issue come up? All that was going through my mind was how close this episode was to "The Drumhead" in TNG. "

The rape issue was crammed down our throats by the promos we saw for the past few weeks, that's where it came from. If TPTB didn't want us to draw the analogy of this episode to a sexual rape case, they shouldn't have allowed the deliberate rape promos UPN blitzed us with.

Leonie said: "Yes Seven said that he had violated her. But he hadn't raped her. It was akin to if he had harvested her. Where was the rape outcry when the Vidiians harvested Neelix's lung?"

The writers went to a lot of trouble to have this episode parallel a rape case in many ways. For example take the nanoprobe evidence that was highlighted as the deciding factor, the nanoprobes were a very close analogy to the semen evidence used to confirm a rape took place. Of course in this case the evidence was secreted by the victim rather than the criminal, but the obvious similarity is still there.

It's debatable whether Seven really was 'violated' or not, but what bothered me was that TPTB choice to promote this episode as a rape and then showed the supposed victim as being at fault. It was done in very poor taste from promotion to episode conclusion. BTW, Leonie, it's nice to hear from you again. I'm glad to see you posting here.

Martha -- 26 Feb 1998, 10:17 AM

This was no coincidence. I agree with Mike, TPTB set this up as a rape analogy. First the promos with Seven saying "He violated me" then the shots of the male crewmembers. When it comes to the actual episode we are led step-by-step through the portrayal of a female's reactions to her bodily integrity being "violated" by a male, the investigation and the doubt as to the reality of her perceptions.

The viewers (like myself) who saw this episode as a rape analogy are not doing this out of the blue. Neelix and B'Elanna were not portrayed in the same manner at all. I think this is the really disturbing part of the episode for me. If TPTB wanted to explore Seven's and the Doc's explorations into humanity and the consequences of mistakes they should have chosen another crime.

In our history, rape victims receive different reactions than do victims of other crimes. Their word is doubted and their motives are questioned. Of course false accusation in rape, as in any other crime is a serious issue, one that warrants punishment. But given that we are less likely to believe a woman who says she has been sexually assaulted then we are to believe her if she says she has been a victim of an armed robbery, why did the writers have to further that response?

In other words, why further the perception that woman who accuse someone as having "violated" them are at best confused or delusional about what happened, at worst--outright lying. At least Janeway said to Seven that she had no doubt that Seven believed what she was saying. I also feel that while there was no definitive statement about what had happened to Seven the reactions of the Doctor's guilt, and Janeway's response "We all make mistakes" come down on the side of Kovin's innocence.

T'Racy -- 26 Feb 1998, 10:17 AM

Emotionally, to Seven, this was a rape ... While not a sexual rape, it was still rape in the emotions she felt. And though it may not be the legal term, you have to look at this from the POV of seeing Seven as a young girl, emotionally. I had read the spoilers, knew the promos for what they were: sensationalist ploys to get viewers to watch. I knew coming into the show that the show had nothing to do with a sexual attack. But, judging from Seven's reaction to the Doctor's scans in the beginning, she was experiencing reactions that a person who has been psychologically as well as physically violated would. It's not like having someone break in your house and steal your TV. Seven's memories, right or wrong, were of a violent attack against her person. She is not, at this time, equipped to deal with that. And, even, when we look at her experiences with the Borg, she was only a child when assimilated (although IIRC, she wasn't activated until she was a teenager). Can you imagine the trauma involved? It's no wonder that she's experiencing troubling images from that experience.

I don't think that TPTB were siding with the accused at all. They were merely reflecting the times. Sometimes there are questions left unanswered about a person's resurfacing memories of an attack. Are they real or false (not meaning that the accuser is a liar, but may not have actually experienced the attack as he/she remembers well after the fact)?

There are many cases out there, and I'm sure Ginny will agree, where the defendant is found innocent on the basis of no clear evidence. Innocent until proven guilty, isn't that the way it's supposed to be? The same laws that protect the innocent can sometimes set free the guilty, merely for lack of evidence. Who knows if he was guilty of stealing the Borg technology? He said he didn't, there were no witnesses, the physical evidence corroborated his story. What can you do? Judge a man guilty based on one person's testimony only (and testimony that is even today very questionable in it's validity)?

Now that I keep wagging my tongue about this, the more I respect this episode. I still want to rewatch it, to get a better understanding of what went on, but while Mike P. hated it, I thought the story was well done and very timely.

Eric -- 26 Feb 1998, 10:32 AM

This was VERY much a rape episode!

From Seven's emotions in sickbay...

From the nano-semen...

From the penis shaped techno-thingy...

To Seven's bondage memories...

And like Mike said, the rape promos...

This was a disgusting lets watch a young women get victimized episode. I hope TPTB never show an episode like this again because it makes me question being a Star Trek fan.

G'Inny -- 26 Feb 1998, 11:17 AM

There were in FACES, Eric. The way B'Elanna's was restrained in the Vidiian lab, bound to a table by her hands and feet, was much more in line with traditional bondage images (especially the way she kept arching her back in an attempt to free herself) than the diagnostic arch paced over Seven's torso. In addition, the lab scenes in FACES were much more sexually charged than anything in RETROSPECT.* The Vidiian scientist was clearly attracted to B'Elanna physically, and, at one point, B'Elanna uses a sexual come-on in an attempt to gain a tactical advantage (talk about your classic rape fantasy scenarios!), but no one rages about B'Elanna's victimization. Why? Was it because, as a full Klingon, she was relatively unattractive, and the image was therefore less titillating? Just something to ponder.

*In Seven's memories, Colvin is actually pretty clinical about the whole thing. In fact, her experience actually resembles what happened to the whole crew on the array, when the Caretaker draped the naked bodies of the entire crew on supports and plunged elongated probes into their chests to extract samples of their bodily fluids. Wow. Talk about your blatant rape imagery. Oh, wait a minute. We didn't, did we? Wonder why?

[Author's name unknown]

G'Inny, I don't think discussions of rape imagery came up in the earlier episodes because the bodily violations in those cases were not treated with the same language and presented in the same way as Retrospect.

The rape analogies come not from imagery per se, but the presentation of the recovered memory, conflicting stories, he said/she said, the Doctor as psychotherapist, and the use of the word "violated" which is a euphemism for rape.

No one questioned whether Neelix might have inadvertently given the Vidiian the impression that he was donating a lung, B'Elanna was not asked if she really didn't *want* to be separated into her human and Vulcan halves. It is not so much that Seven's bodily integrity (may) have been compromised, it is the events surrounding her accusation that provide the rape analogy.

I also have worked professionally (albeit very briefly) in the arena of sexual assault, however I have worked on the prosecutorial side. I think our different perspectives, as you previously noted, come from the very human experience of having witnessed different pain.

Marie -- 26 Feb 1998, 11:33 AM

She must have been hallucinating... I agree with everything you say, Martha. A couple of things disturbed me particularly. First of all, when the Doc relates Seven's story, what's the first thing that Janeway, Tuvok & co. do? The ask if she could be lying or hallucinating. I had the sense right there that things would go badly in this episode.

Also, near the end of the story, Seven is implicitly made out to be the bad guy, so to speak, in relation to Kovin's death. If she made an error--if her memory was wrong--it was a tragedy, yes, but not only for Kovin. Seven *has* been violated in the past, whether it was by the Borg or Kovin, or both (and Kovin's innocence or guilt was never truly established). She was in real pain over those memories. Now, she not only has to deal with the *real* "violations" she's suffered as a person, but take the responsibility for someone else's death, based on her own suffering. If this was real life, and Seven was a real person, she would be a complete mess by now.

The point is, Seven also needs sympathy and help. The Doc tried to help her, and Picardo did a superb acting job in this one, but it was help given under the assumption that Seven was wrong. Remember that scene on the bridge after Kovin's ship exploded? Janeway looked at Seven like she was a monster. Maybe that wasn't the sentiment Mulgrew was trying to convey, but that's how it came across to me. The crew, clearly, were on Kovin's side even though nothing was conclusively proven.

Unlike Ginny, I know and have known too many women who have suffered rape both as adults and as children, the latter on a long-term basis. I've seen the emotional pain *and* guilt these feel. A couple of those women have never confronted the males in their family who subjected them to incest because they still believe, on some level, that they are responsible, or that they wouldn't be believed, or that it would destroy their families.

I was sexually assaulted once, at seventeen, by a much older co-worker--a person I trusted and viewed as an uncle of sorts. He was also a family friend. Fortunately, it stopped short of full-blown rape. I never said anything either to my colleagues or my family and friends because I feared I wouldn't be believed. Not only that, I feared people would blame me. Everybody thought this guy was great, as I had, until that one day.

Rape is much too painful and critical an issue to use in such an irresponsible manner, and simply for dramatic (or melodramatic) effect. I can't begin to tell you how much this episode offended me. I've really lost a good dose of respect for the Voyager people.

G'Inny -- 26 Feb 1998, 12:08 PM

To quote Leonie, Marie, "Whoa"! I never said that I didn't know any women who had suffered rape or sexual abuse, because, in fact, I do. I've also had several clients who were victims of abuse, and I've had several who were the accused abuser. All I said was that my office had represented folks whose lives were ruined by accusations based on false recovered memories.

As for whether rape is too painful and critical an issue to use in such an irresponsible manner--of course, it is. But so is murder, torture, child abuse, war, racism, addiction... The list goes on and on. I don't happen to think rape was used in an irresponsible manner in this episode, primarily because a) I don't think this was a rape in the legal sense (it was an assault and battery--which, admittedly, can be just as psychologically damaging as a rape. I've represented battered teachers who bear the physical and emotional scars.), and b) because I think the bigger issue in this story, whether you think it should have been or not, is the Holodoc's arrogance, his misplaced belief that a new subroutine qualified him to be a psychotherapist. The disastrous things that inevitably happen in this episode--Kovin's death, Seven's discredidation--result from the doctor's incompetence in dealing with the initial situation--Seven's skittishness in SickBay.

Was Seven actually assaulted? A good question that was not conclusively answered. Was Colvin guilty of doing something wrong? Another good question that was not conclusively answered. Could these questions now be answered? Perhaps, if there was a trained therapist on board, but there's isn't. It's just like the cases I deal with every day. "He did this to me." "I never touched her." No witnesses, no corroboration, no cool 24th century investigative technology. Just a best guess based on the circumstances and the character and reputation of the individuals involved. And what an uncertain yardstick that can be.

So what is left for Seven and the Holodoc? Dealing with the aftermath--just like in real life.

Marie -- 26 Feb 1998, 12:27 PM

Whoa...Ginny, I never meant to suggest that you couldn't understand the rape victim's viewpoint. You yourself stated that you were looking at this episode from the perspective of someone who has seen lives ruined by false accusations. I was simply giving the opposite perspective. Of course, false accusations occur in rape cases, and they need to be dealt with. The problem I have is that all too often the rape *does* occur, and the victim either isn't believed or doesn't report it because she's afraid it won't be believed due to lack of witnesses and other corroborating evidence.

This episode plays right into that. If Kovin (or whatever the heck his name is) had been proven conclusively innocent, then it would have been more acceptable as a story about the holodoc and *his* mistakes. As it was, nothing was conclusively proven one way or another, but Seven bears the burden of responsibility, as well as the burden of not knowing what really did happen to her.

The Doc talks to her about guilt and remorse, but nobody suggests that Seven has been through hell and needs help herself. Something clearly *has* happened to her, whether it occurred at Kovin's hands, at the Borg's, or both. Yet there is no sympathy for Seven; she is just made to feel that she was *wrong.*

You say there wasn't a rape in the legal sense. When I was attacked, intercourse didn't occur, so perhaps that wasn't rape in the legal sense, either. However, my body was forcefully violated in other ways. If the scenario that Seven recalls occurred, then the integrity of her body was violated. It wasn't 'just' an assault; she underwent an actual surgical procedure after being shot and forcibly restrained.

Rape isn't simply about sex; it's about the use of violence and power over another person. That's what happened to Seven at the hands of the Borg, and what may have happened to her at Kovin's hands. I'm sure your cases don't always rap up neatly or satisfactorily, and that's real life, as you say. I think, however, that in RETROSPECT TPTB sent the wrong message about women and violence.

Pat Rogers -- 26 Feb 1998, 10:21 AM

VOYAGER WRITERS ARE RAPE APOLOGISTS. We hate Star Trek!!!!!

My wife and I agree 1000% that the episode of Star Trek Voyager of Feb. 25, 1998 is the last episode of Star Trek, of any generation, be it voyage or space station that we will ever again watch. As of today we go from watching Star Trek related shows four nights a week to boycotting all Star Trek programming.

What your sexist, rapist apologist writers did tonight to not only the Seven of Nine character but to every human being that has been violated by another person, is unconscionable. The writers sided with the rapist. You used metaphors for rape and then you denied, refuted and re-victimized the victim. The show disgusted me. I am glad that I am not currently invested in Viacom because I would sell it if I were. Pat and Eloise Rogers

Vickie T. -- 26 Feb 1998, 10:26 AM

I really wanted to like this episode ... and Ginny's and Leonie's comments have helped with that, but I Retrospect is not an episode that I care to see again. I don't have anything to say that hasn't already been said, so I'll be brief.

Liked:

Some good lessons and character growth for holodoc.

Some good lessons for Seven.

TPTB didn't forget entirely that Seven has behaved badly in previous episode.

Tom's new hairstyle is very nice.

Disliked:

The whole rape/ child abuse "he said/she said" theme was very poorly done. The ending stunk. The whole point (I thought) was that they would never really know the truth, but IMO. everyone's reactions toward Seven suggested that they now believed she was mistaken and that Kovin was just an innocent victim.

Don't they have *any* sort of away team protocol? I mean, even back in Campfire Girls we had the buddy system for field trips.

Janeway talking about Seven in the beginning like I would talk about one of my children. Yes, Seven is, in many ways, like a child in her emotional development, but the fact is that she is *not* a child. I know I have joked about "Mama Janeway," but I believe that such obvious mothering behavior is inappropriate. I think someone talked about this a bit in the discussion of last week's episodes.

The bottom line is that there was something to like here, more to dislike, but all in all the episode didn't work for me. It failed to engage me, so that even my likes and dislikes don't arouse especially strong feelings. Most everything about the episode felt so superficial that I find myself reacting by shrugging my shoulders and giving a noncommittal grunt. Obviously, the show struck a strong chord with some of you, but not for me.

Suzanne -- 26 Feb 1998, 12:07 PM

I've only read the first 3 reviews posted in this area, and from those I can glean that some people are very offended by this episode. I didn't come away feeling as insulted and disappointed as some of you, but I did feel...I can't even think of a word...odd? Ambivalent? Shell-shocked? Heck, I don't know. Maybe if I can tell you what I liked and didn't like it will make more sense.

THUMBS UP:

- The Acting from the Crew: I like how the dynamics between all the actors are really meshing this season. Janeway/7 - never a false step. Chakotay's role as head staff guy is good - he has a firm, yet persuasive touch with most of the staff that fits him well. Doc/7 - next to Tuvok, Doc seems to be the one 7 trusts most implicitly. They have a history of working together ("Scientific Method") and the actors have a nice chemistry.

- Continuity: Appreciated the references to Starfleet's message and how 7 has been behaving. I really liked the line Janeway opened with when 7 was brought to the ready room. "Well, here we are again." So much was conveyed with that line and Mulgrew's expression - weariness, exasperation, futility, humour. Sherlock Tuvok reappeared with a nice emphasis on his objective, fair approach to these situations. I don't fault at all his request for more conclusive evidence.

- "Family" Feeling: I *was* pleasantly surprised that 7 was not completely ostracized by the crew after what happened in "Prey." The tone at the end of that episode gave me the feeling she had been banished to the bowels of Voyager. But, the beginning of this episode conveyed a more concerted effort on the part of the crew to actually teach her things and continue to include her in projects. Weapons testing w/Tom, decoding Starfleet's message, Doc's never-ending patience whenever she asks "Why," Chakotay's firm and reasoned explanation when she displays some petulance, and B'Elanna's muted yet evident defense of her in sickbay were all good ways (IMO) to show that she still has a place on Voy even if she did something they didn't agree with. Looked like Samantha Wildman had routed her "How to Raise a Child on a Starship" manual to the rest of the staff. ;-)

- AOTW: He was written to rub everyone the wrong way and he certainly did that, including me. In that vein, the actor was successful in creating an initially distasteful character. But, his scene with Tuvok was the turning point for me as I could see the character's desperation and fear that he could be convicted for something he didn't do. Aside - did anyone else think he looked like Ryan O'Neal (y'know - from the movie LOVE STORY, Tatum's dad, Farrah's ex)?

- No YAATE (Yet Another Abrupt Trek Ending): I thought the story was well-paced and ended at a good point. I differ from Peter (I think it's Peter) in that I like those episode of Trek that *don't* wrap up situations neat and tidy with a little bow. I like food for thought. I'm one of the few people who liked "Tuvix" and all the questions and issues that arose out of that episode. With that comes my segue into whatI thought of this week's food.

THUMBS DOWN:

- Leola Root Special: WHAT THE &*(% WERE THE WRITERS THINKING? Do they have any idea what kind of position they put the crew in at the end of the episode? I have no clue what this episode was trying to say. As stated above, I don't need things to be black & white, but this was just icky! An investigation into 7's accusation was the right thing to do, but Doc's blatant leading of 7 emotionally was thoroughly distasteful. How could 7 ever trust him again? And, Janeway's statement that everyone contributed to the situation and had to share the guilt was way off. Why should she feel guilty about investigating 7's accusation? Investigating was the *right* thing to do. I'm just shaking my head here.

- Writing into a Corner: So, where *did* those strong feelings toward the AOTW and the detailed memories come from? If the writers wanted to keep the "false memories" theme, they should have explained better why 7 punched the AOTW, felt such fear in sickbay and what prompted those memories. Doc didn't lead her during her recollection. And, I will not believe that her right hook was just an "uncontrollable impulse." Balderdash! There should still be a reason behind her impulse. If the AOTW's involvement was supposed to be false, Janeway should have been scripted a soliloquy along the lines of hoping that 7 will never be afraid to come forward for fear she is wrong; that 7 can always trust them to try and find out the truth and support her; and that finding out the truth is in everyone's best interests. But, that still doesn't answer what happened to 7! I think the writers created a situation and didn't know how to get out of it.

Sloppy...

- Killing the AOTW: Was this really necessary? IMO, no, it wasn't and more could have been achieved if both Doc and 7 had been able to meet with him, explain what happened and apologize for jumping to conclusions. But, then, that would have required the writers to actually *know* what happened to 7, which they clearly do not. So, they just kill the poor schmuck and hope that in our shock we don't notice the HUGE plot thread trailing behind the ship.

MISC:

- Wow, Janeway sure moves fast to establish trade relations. In Voy time, Starfleet's message was received 2 weeks ago (7's comment). That jives with "Hunters." I'd like to know how these guys, and their home world, avoid the Hirogen. No time for small talk in the DQ.

- Finally, Voyager finds a race with whom to establish trade relations. A seemingly friendly, intelligent race whose existence some of us were beginning to doubt. And, this happens. I think a curse was put on Voyager back in the AQ. Nothing else can explain the way their relations with other aliens manage to crash and burn so fast.

In closing, I think this episode was more disdainful of the medical profession than it was to victims of rape. Both the crew and the AOTW's government took 7's accusations seriously. An investigation was launched whereby more evidence was found, which is what should happen. It's the Doc's role in inflaming the situation that really disturbed me. His enthusiasm for broadening his base of knowledge has been displayed before, but never to this extent.

Rape is a serious crime. Validity of repressed memories is a serious issue, as is the role of a psychiatrist in manipulating a patient's emotions. This episode handled those issues too badly for the writers to do justice to all of them at once. Maybe that was its downfall - too many inflammatory issues at once and no satisfactory explanation of what *really* happened to 7. The final blow, that *nothing* may have happened and an innocent man was killed, may be too much for some viewers to bear. If the writers wanted me to come away from "Retrospect" feeling disturbed, they were successful. I was disturbed. This felt more like something I would see on LAW & ORDER than ST. It just felt odd on Voyager.

Jules -- 26 Feb 1998, 12:25 PM

Watching from the sidelines: Funny you should mention Tuvix. I've been thinking the very same thing as I've been reading the posts on this episode. This debate reminded me of that one a lot. It's likely to be a couple of weeks before I get to see this episode, but I get the distinct impression that my reaction to it is likely to be much the same as yours: ambivalent. I'm a non-committal fence sitter by nature, and I doubt I'll either love it or wish to feed my entire Voyager videotape collection into the fire. Like you, I welcome the ambivalent, no-right-answer episodes. It's nice to be challenged in your viewing from time to time, and to have to work to figure out what your opinion is, rather than have it handed to you by the programme giving broad hints all the time. I liked the ambivalence of Tuvix, and the fact that neither of the two possible decisions was [a] simple, or [b] without its own completely plausible claim to be the right one. This sounds like it has its own similar question mark. Everybody will have their own opinion on what did/didn't happen - and they'll all be both right and wrong, because it is left up to the audience to decide for themselves...

G'Inny -- 26 Feb 1998, 1:13 PM

And More Imagery. Martha -- I was really directing my comments to Eric's indignant remarks above. If one looks for images of bondage in VOYAGER, one can certainly find them, and images much, much more blatant and disturbing than the ones involving Seven in RETROSPECT.

In fact, one of Eric's favorite episodes, WARLORD, is just one long cavalcade of B/D/S/M imagery. Think about it. An entity forcibly invades Kes' psyche and takes over total motor control of her body. He dresses her in practically every S/M fetish I'm aware of (the only thing missing is the riding crop) and propels her body into sexual situations involving two different men and a woman.

Does Eric cry out in rage and indignation at the intolerable invasion of Kes' person and the transgressions against her rights a sentient being? Nope. He revels in it, finding it erotic and exciting. So I gotta ask, Eric. What changed your mind, buddy?

Suzanne -- 26 Feb 1998, 3:04 PM

Right next to ya, Jules...watching the tennis balls fly back & forth. (wizz) (wizz) DUCK! (zoom) I think that one came from Eric. (g)

If you read Part 2 of my review, I do think the writers could have been more concise and clear about what they were trying to do. I haven't seen "Tuvix" in a while, but I recall that it was very well constructed, written and acted. "Retrospect" was well-acted and paced, some of the writing was OK, but the overall feeling I was left with was messy, messy, messy.

Can one say that the acting was great with less-than-satisfactory material? If so, put me down for that because I got the feeling we weren't seeing what the writers wanted to say. I agree with T'racy that the episode was left unfinished, like life sometimes is, without knowing the real truth. Maybe that's the best way to view this episode. When you do see it, let us know what you think! (Especially Janeway's "look" to 7 at the end. That seemed completely off base to me.)

Fliteman -- 26 Feb 1998, 3:08 PM

RE:This is far too general of an attack... I can't help but be offended by this episode. Who was right, and what really happened, are being denied us. I think it is left to the viewer as to what the facts are, which... to be honest, in this case, I think is handing off too much responsibility for this subject.

I doubt many of us here could actually be put off of Star Trek in whole by a single episode; poorly written or not; but this one certainly unsettled a good many of us. Instead of facts, I have only feelings left at the end of this one; - Right or wrong, fact or fiction, Seven's "attack" left me feeling sorry for her. Whether it happened or not - she FELT it had. I think it will stick with her for a good long time; and I don't WANT my Star Trek characters going through something like this.

- Add to that, it's more than suggested she may have been wrong. And her error may be responsible for Colvin's flight & death, which wasn't viewed as justice, but a tragedy. We'll never know which it really was.

- The Doc was guilty of jumping the gun; It affected him so much, he wanted to absolve himself of ever being capable of the responsibility in the future. I don't WANT the doc capable of feeling remorse; He lost an edge to his character last night, IMHO.

If you end your viewing of Star Trek based on one episode, that is entirely your decision. However... it is really up to us to accept the brutality that is POSSIBLE, not only in a fictional TV show, but in real life, and to deal with it accordingly. To refuse to acknowledge it and to stop watching because a story about it (or something similar) is shown, is akin to an ostrich sticking his head in the sand.

No, I didn't like this episode. I don't LIKE being unsettled at the end. But I refuse to be put off of Star Trek because they've dealt with a subject that is obviously very painful to a lot of people. The fact that they've left a lot of the interpretation up to us means that we have to be able deal with it on our own level... Which, as I said before... I don't think every Star Trek fan wants to or is even able to.

Leonie -- 26 Feb 1998, 3:44 PM

That's one way of looking at it Eric, here's another...When I first saw the promos, I thought that they had brought back that dreadful person who did the promos in the second season. It looked like the one from "Elogium", That wasn't a rape episode. It was the one when Kes could have conceived and the promos made her out to be pregnant and either Tom, Chakotay or Neelix could have been the father. The show, if you remember was not about her being pregnant at all nor did it indicate some concerns of who the father would be. The father would have been Neelix, not Tom.

So that's what struck me from the promos. The second thing is nano-probes being semen. I would think that it is more like blood. And again, the memories bring back my memories of TNG's episode, I can't remember the name of it, but it was the one when aliens from another universe were taking crewmembers from the enterprise for bodily experiments. The only way that the crewmembers realized something common had happened to them is that they had an intense reaction to objects which reminded them of the ordeal that was suppressed.Just like Seven.

Suzanne -- 26 Feb 1998, 3:48 PM

Comment by Helmboy...I mean, Fliteman (g) Fliteman wrote (in another thread down there): "The Doc was guilty of jumping the gun; It affected him so much, he wanted to absolve himself of ever being capable of the responsibility in the future. I don't WANT the doc capable of feeling remorse; He lost an edge to his character last night, IMHO."

That's a really interesting statement, Flite. Back in Season 3 when "Real Life" aired, I didn't really like the idea of him having a family. It seemed too un-hologramish. On one hand, I like the idea of him exploring his humanity, but on the other hand, he has to admit he *isn't* human and never will be. Even if they build a physical body for him, he'll still be an android.

Why would it hurt Doc to feel remorse? Do you think he would lose some of his efficiency and objectivity to situations. I'll admit Doc is one of my favorite characters. He could always be relied upon which is why I didn't like how his good intentions turned into something akin to malpractice in "Retrospect." Just wondering...

Carol -- 26 Feb 1998, 5:45 PM

The Promo and the episode...

Mike said -- "Leonie said : Where did the Rape issue come up? All that was going through my mind was how close this episode was to "The Drumhead" in TNG.

The rape issue was crammed down our throats by the promos we saw for the past few weeks, that's where it came from. If TPTB didn't want us to draw the analogy of this episode to a sexual rape case, they shouldn't have allowed the deliberate rape promos UPN blitzed us with."

Mike, I don't think TPTB "aloud" that promo for Retrospect as it were. Unlike the PTB over at DS9, the Voyager people sadly don't have any say about the promos that UPN airs for the show.

Remember the promo for Resistance? It implied that the entire crew would be tortured for the episode and that Janeway was going to have to sleep with someone in order to save her crew. When TPTB found out about that promo (Jeri Taylor and Kate Mulgrew in particular) they saw red. Later, when the episode was repeated, the promo people had changed the ad completely.

I don't know how the tone of this episode flowed so I can't comment on that, but if the parallel to rape in this episode came mostly from the preview, then the blame for that rests solely on the shoulder of UPN and not Brannon Braga, Lisa Klink, et al. They usually don't know or haven't seen the preview until we do - they have absolutely no control over them sadly. UPN is going to be the death knell of Voyager if something isn't done IMO.

Eric -- 26 Feb 1998, 6:55 PM

RE: You actually think Kes was having *fun*...

----G'Inny WROTE---- "...being used by a sexual predator like Tieran? Then you and I apparently have a completely different view of being victimized. As I recall (thanks to prompting from Jim Wright's comprehensive review), Kes feels immense guilt at the end of WARLORD over the lives that were lost because of her actions while possessed by Tieran, and she wonders whether she could have fought harder to break his control sooner. (Hmmmm...she sounds pretty victimized to me.) Her world view and her view of self has been completely altered by her experience, and she laments to Tuvok, "How can I go back to my normal life as if nothing ever happened?"

I'd say she was just as traumatized, if not more so, than Seven. You also have to consider that Kes is only three when all this happens. OTOH, Seven, though still immature in many ways, has 20-odd years of experience being part of a Collective that did to other races pretty much exactly what Colvin allegedly did to her.

So, sorry, Eric--I just don't see how you can find Seven's alleged victimization by Colvin offensive, yet still find Kes' genuine victimization by Tieran titillating. But that's just me. G'Inny

----END PREVIOUS MESSAGE----

Actually, I said Jennifer Lien was having fun. And she was smiling so much that I think I'm being pretty accurate. :-) Just a little clarification Ginny, nothing personal. Eric.

Jason -- 26 Feb 1998, 7:07 PM

Interesting analogies, but...I agree with your analogy of the nanoprobes being blood, and within the context of the episode, I'd agree with it. I didn't see the promos. As far as I can tell, they didn't show them here in Canada, but I think lines like Seven's frightened "No, we mustn't do this." strongly suggested sexual, non consensual activity and the way the episode casts Seven as a stereotypical rape victim and the Doctor as her radical activist ("He must get what he deserves!"-- Hope that Hippocratic Oath wasn't one of those algorithms you wanted to delete, Doc.) turn this episode in to an offensive rape story-- but it's like they didn't want us to realize it was a rape story, so they tried to dress it up, surrounded in different trappings, hoping that the rape elements would be camouflaged by the organ transplantation elements.

I think you bring up an interesting yet debatable point by comparing this to "Drumhead". In both episodes, two sets of ethics conflicted with each other in a search for the truth. But in this case, there was only the "evil" set of ethics at work, with some of the crew realizing, but not totally acting upon the fact they might be aware of the fact what they are doing is slightly wrong. (Please, someone give the arms dealer a lawyer.) Because there is only a slight conceptual similarity between this and "Drumhead", I do, in the end, find the comparison weak. This amounted to bad writing on the part of Klink & Fuller, otherwise, the "Drumhead"-ish issues would have been explored fully.

Mike D -- 26 Feb 1998, 7:30 PM

Carol, no matter whose intent it was to air that promo with this episode(UPN's or TPTB's) the effect that the 'I was violated' promos had on the viewers was that this was going to be a rape-themed episode. Even without the tasteless promos the episode *definitely* stands alone as an allegory to a sexual rape victim's plight, especially the type of rape where the woman is drugged and unsure what really happened to her. It reminded me most of the rapes that take place when a patient is under anesthesia (like in the dentist chair cases we've all heard about on the news) or the rapes that take place using the so-called 'date rape' drugs.

I really do sympathize with the female(and male) posters here who have said they were offended by the message presented in this episode, especially those posters who have had past experiences with rape and near rape situations. Yesterday was a very dark day for this Voyager fan.

Pegn -- 26 Feb 1998, 7:40 PM

RE:This is far too general of an attack... I came in 15 minutes late on this episode, I think at the point the Doctor is trying to probe 7's subconscious. You guys may think I dense or insensitive, but I didn't parallel this episode to *rape* (the UPN promo, however, I did find offensive because it was trying to sensationalize through innuendo). What came through loud and clear to me was the damage that falsely implanted *repressed memories" can do to the accused and the people involved. That, as Joyce said, was taken from today's occurrences.

I was left with a couple of questions (or did you address it already). When 7's hand was injured, did she pass out for 2 hours or what? She's very efficient minded and logical. Can she not account for activity within the two hours? And I'm still not sure that what she *remembered* didn't happen. There just wasn't conclusive evidence.

I didn't find the episode offensive, but then I'm the type of person that if I have any bad *repressed* memories, I'd rather keep them repressed. This could be a good thing or a bad thing depending on your point of view, but it works for me. I can't believe that this episode invoked such bad feelings and that someone was attacked for stating his feelings. But the people on this board aren't vicious (some people just shouldn't have internet accounts).

Carol -- 26 Feb 1998, 9:31 PM

The debate seems to be...whether or not this episode blatantly had a Rape/Assault overtone to it or not. Forget the previews I say...I think most agree - and have for a long time - that UPN's promos are, well, to say what they are would take a lot of expletives. Did the episode itself have that overtone and would it still have it, preview or no preview. Some here seem to think it did, some think it didn't.

I myself feel like I'm groping in the dark here as I can't get the feel of the episode from just the spoilers alone. I'm just going to have to sit on the fence on some of this until then.

Vickie T. -- 26 Feb 1998, 10:20 PM

Holodoc getting too human? SuzyQ, your post reminded me of a few comments exchanged by ????? (sorry, I don't remember who). Anyway, I thought they raised an interesting issue. The more "human" we see the Doc become, the more one has to question just what it means to be a living, breathing, sentient being. I'm not sure how I feel about the Doc changing from *just* a computer program to what seems to be indistinguishable from all the other humanoids on the ship. I liked the contrast/conflict/interaction between the Doc and the mere mortals. I'm afraid that we will lose that if they keep humanizing the character.

Roxanne -- 27 Feb 1998, 12:04 AM

RE: Holodoc getting too human? Andy and I tried many times to get a conversation going on this, but it didn't take. I don't like the doc being so human. I didn't mind him having a family, because it gave him an idea of what the crew members of Voyager were going through being separated from their families.

I have the same problem with Data getting emotions. When you make a character like the Holodoc or Data that is meant to be something different than a human, why make him more human? With each of these characters as hologram or android, and exploring the different aspects of humanity, it made me explore my ideas of humanity as well. The doc shouldn't have feelings. He should be arrogant, impartial, and still have to work on his bedside manners, although some of the best docs I know make their patients hate them. Anyway, the doc is not human. Don't make him that way.

Jules -- 27 Feb 1998, 8:04 AM

The journey is the interesting bit...It's the holodoc's exploration of humanity - and his little achievements and failures along that path - that make it interesting. If he ever reaches a state where he no longer needs to strive to understand humans, or to emulate them, he might as well be one. In which case, we might as well have had Dr Zimmerman with a medical degree all along and not bothered to kill off all the medical staff in episode one.

Hopefully things will never quite reach that state. Data, for instance, may now have that emotion chip but it still doesn't enable him to act just like the humans. He may now have emotions, but he doesn't instinctively deal with them - there's still a lot of android analysis in there.

But I agree that I would prefer the Doctor's distance from humanity to be a wider gulf than it now is, just to keep up the challenge. I still have mixed feelings about the holoemitter; it marked him out as unique in that he was limited in where he could be. And he always seemed to be a little remote from the rest of the crew, even when he was with them. Now though, since the loss of Kes, he seems as comfortable with everyone else as he once was only with her... and while the determination seems to be to make Voyager one big happy family, I'd like to see that there were still one or two crewmembers who never made it past the outer perimeters of that circle.

Terry -- 26 Feb 1998, 10:48 PM

R-E-tro-S-P-E-C-T, find out what it means to me. This episode dealt with a controversial contemporary issue: repressed memories of rape, their accuracy, and whether counselors lead their patients to remember what the counselors have decided beforehand to be the truth. This is a subject which I personally believe is not clear-cut. IMHO, some repressed memories are accurate and some are not. That subject deserves much more complete coverage than I can possibly provide here. I'll see what others have to say on the subject after I post this.

Briefly on the facts of this case, IMO the Doctor did not really seem to be leading Seven to remember being violated by Kovin. She came up with the details on her own. However, he did cross the line afterwards in how he stirred her emotions up against Kovin. In doing so, he reinforced her accusation, perhaps when these memories were not exactly as she initially believed.

This episode was surprising and disturbing in a strong manner. The ending surprised me to a degree never before experienced watching Voyager. I enjoyed watching an episode in which there were no clear right and wrong. I don't believe that we know for sure whether Seven was assaulted by Kovin or not. I don't want many episodes like this one but it was a refreshing change from the usually morally unambiguous stories.

About the surgical violation of Seven. That event would be a traumatic experience indeed. But I would be remiss if I didn't point out that each and every member of the crew has been brutalized or violated in similar or worse fashion. Tom and B'Elanna have had their memories messed with. Tom, Harry, Chakotay, Janeway, Neelix have been tortured, punished, or experimented on in episode such as Scientific Method, Ex Post Facto, Unity, Faces, etc.

And Seven herself has done worse to others and had worse done to her with the Collective. In fact, the Doctor violated her even worse in The Gift.

It was interesting to watch the different crewmembers react to Seven's accusations at different times. Janeway was a little skeptical, then adamantly supportive, then doubtful again. Tuvok was always skeptical. The Doctor believed her instantly but then finally abandoned her. That was a great scene when the Doctor sees the nanoprobe evidence.

Seven recalls his convincing her to get angry at Kovin and now he has changed his mind and abandoned her. And he looks humiliated and miserable. This was one of the Doctor's best episodes. He showed a new aspect of his personality. He has really changed and developed. His psychological treatment of Seven and his later counseling was fascinating. He clearly was overconfident and then badly shaken. And the thing is that he might have been originally correct and now is wrong. The final scene involved a virtual request for suicide or a lobotomy.

The guest star playing Kovin really did a great job. I thought the story would prove him guilty but he played the role of a wrongly accused man perfectly. At no point could you look at his performance and decide for sure that he was guilty. His desperation during his appeal to Tuvok and during his flight was convincing.

Miscellaneous:

Interesting concept of Voyager buying a powerful cannon which can punch through any armor.

I liked that Seven's punishment was dealt with. I wasn't entirely pleased to see Janeway unable to clearly discipline her, though. But at least it was mentioned and dealt with.

"He's inefficient" was perfect Sevenspeak for "I don't like him".

I was surprised by Seven's attack on Kovin.

I was amused by B'Elanna's reaction to the attack. She seemed to be quite amused to see Seven getting into trouble by breaking a co-worker's nose in Engineering. Just like she did to Carey in State of Flux.

G'Inny -- 27 Feb 1998, 8:25 AM

Excellent point, Terry. About the Holodoc having done worse to her in THE GIFT. I hadn't thought about the fact that his actions in initially removing her Borg implants was just as much against her will and much, much more invasive than what Colvin allegedly did to her.

Joyce made a good point on the mailing list about Seven's reaction. She and I are in agreement that what happened to Seven was not rape, although TPTB certainly dressed it in the trappings of rape. It was, essentially, an assault and battery, and Seven certainly should have been pissed off about it, if it did, indeed, happen to her, but considering her life experience and what she remembers, without any appreciable trauma, doing to entire other races as part of the Collective, it seems highly unlikely that she would have been so completely undone by Colvin's alleged theft...BUT FOR the Holodoc's actions in suggesting memories (and I believe he did--"He fired?" "Did they scan you?") and in encouraging her anger and vengefulness towards Colvin before any reasonable investigation of the allegations was done. Did the Holodoc even do any tests to determine if Seven showed evidence of having undergone a surgical procedure? If he did, I didn't see it.

Chief Inspector Tuvok makes a good point--Seven has had hallucinations before, in RAVEN. And the Holodoc really doesn't know a lot about her Borg neurology. Didn't Picard also have nightmares or visions after he was rescued from the Collective?

I know other people on the board believe that the implication that Seven's memories were false further victimizes her, but I don't buy that. This is, after all, the Star Trek universe. As you pointed out, other crewmembers have had mind and memory messed with on multiple occasions. In view of those experiences, a little skepticism and a reasonable investigation is simply prudent. Like I posted over on the mailing list--after the events in PERSISTENCE OF VISION and CODA (and, as you noted, EX POST FACTO), I wouldn't believe I remembered my own name correctly, until after I had checked my nametag.

Diane -- 27 Feb 1998, 11:12 AM

This episode was like a James Joyce short story, having to be read three time before my "epiphany." With "Retrospect," the more I watched it, discussed with my hubby, or read comments, the more I realized that this was not a bad episode. Ironic, his story "The Dubliners" deals with repressed memories that destroys a marriage. Watching this episode, I was also reminded of Shakespeare's "Othello," the OJ Simpson case, and (as I work in DC) the Whitewater grand jury hearings.

I also felt that the writers kept with the theme of "Hunter/Prey" story arc even though the Hirogen had nothing to do with this story. What does being a hunter mean" Well, robbing someone of their individuality. What does prey mean? It means, as the Doc said to 7, having your individuality violated, thus ending in a loss of trust and sometimes in tragedy. Look at this episode, it starts with Janeway giving 7 back some of her "individuality" back after last week's confrontation, 7 even states she has "violated" Janeway's trust (she uses that word). Koven then violates 7's space. 7, through the Doc's playing Ilago, announces that Koven has violated her. Because of her statements the Voyager crew then proceeds to accuse Koven (another violation) without completing its investigation. Koven then states that his trust in the Voyager crew has been violated and takes off like OJ. Because of the accusations, as he states, his life is over because his race "thrives" on reputation, and this has been destroyed. Koven has become the Prey. And like Othello, Koven's ending is tragic.

The results of this violation of individuality: self-destruction, remorse, and guilt. 7 even makes a great statement about this, as a collective she felt no remorse over the "violation of countless millions" but now, as an individual, she feels remorse over the death of Koven, an individual. And the Doc, who like 7 wants a quick fix to these feelings (who doesn't) is reminded by Janeway (like he was by Tom in "Real Life") that because of these feelings humans (WE) learn from our tragic mistakes.

I have to admit that when I read this board's comments last night I was a little shaken by what people got out of this episode, so I watched the episode again, then I went to two other boards where the reviewers and commentaries did not even mention the word "rape." Now some thought the show was boring (younger viewers and some thought it was great. All I can say is that I find it ironic the repressed memories of a promo that suggested 7 had been raped may have played into the minds of all the people who thought this episode dealt with rape.

Final comments: Funny that X-Files also did its "Retrospect" story the same week as Voyager. X-Files took the comedy route with Violations and Voyager took the serious route. X files is praised and while Voyager is condemned. Both shows dealt with the removal of "fluids" by force: Blood on X-Files and Nanaprobes on Voyager. Just thought I would throw that little tidbit for everyone to chew on, no pun intended. Next week's promo was 1000 percent better. Made it look like "Killing Games" will be a fun episode.

TKS -- 27 Feb 1998, 11:14 AM

The journey is the interesting bit...I'm not sure that I agree with all of you, but I think that what you have said needs some consideration. It has been four years and the EMH has been active ever since, and has been given the ability to turn himself on or off. We all know that he makes alterations to his programming. What I truly sense is the holograms desire to be more attentive to his patients, and again to relate to the crew. The one point that you (I mean all in this thread,) point out is that the EMH is becoming too human. He is a software program. This is the danger when you add synthetic lifeforms to Science fiction. You give them personalities that are nearly human, but not quite. They don't have life, at least the way we understand it. The question is are the sentient since they were programmed. Well in TNG that was answered in "Measure of a Man", but I don't believe it has been addressed on Voyager. Although, I do believe that "Eye of the Needle" may answer some of the questions, and again "Real Life" clarifies it more. The mere fact that he can alter his programming means that he has autonomy, and he is treated as a person on Voyager. In "Lifesigns" we saw our holodoc fall in love with a Vidiian. In many ways the EMH is far more human than Data, and I think that what makes it so difficult to accept. Seeing a machine, or a software program, act like any one of us. It is easy to toss your toaster out the window when it doesn't work anymore, but could you do the same thing to Data, or the EMH?

Suzanne -- 27 Feb 1998, 12:37 PM

Oooo, I see a slippery slope here...You bring up a lot of good points, Pat. I recall back when "Scorpion II" and "The Gift" aired the debate was a bit polarized on whether Janeway had the right to rehumanize 7 against 7's wishes to return to the collective. And, now, G'Inny's point (somewhere on this board) that what Doc did to 7 back in those episode could also be translated into violation ties into the same subject. Doc didn't just extract nanoprobes - he completely altered her physical appearance and "unBorged" her against her wishes. When her life was out of danger, her only request was to be set free to return to the collective. She was denied and told she didn't know any better.

Of course, no ST fan is going to say that a starship crew is as guilty of violation and victimization on one person as the Borg have been to countless civilizations because "our" crew is supposed to be the good guys. But, it does make for interesting conversation to look at the actions of the "good" guys and the "bad" guys and determine why some actions are considered wrong while similar actions are said to be right. Now, move over, Jules. I need a seat on the fence...;-)

Sue_B -- 27 Feb 1998, 6:05 PM

RE: Ginny, You're Not Alone! I'm with you too! I sorted through the postings and was hard pressed to find many in this group who liked the show. Glad someone else like it. Personally, I thought it was one of the most outstanding and powerful episodes that Voyager has ever created. (I liked Tuvix as well...seems I'm into seeing our crew suffer angst over moral decisions). Seriously, the continuity and character development was very good. The Doctor does lose objectivity about his own skills. Often. He is as threatened by lack of relevance as Neelix. At least Neelix can be a cook on Earth, the Doc will be "wiped" or a museum piece.

I thought Janeway pushed Kovin pretty hard at the start (saw him before she disciplined 7 and asked what he did to provoke 7). Yes the accusations were serious and I believe she handled them as such. As Tuvok quickly pointed out, however, they were on shaky ground with repressed memories to start off with. Without any physical evidence they needed to protect everyone's rights. I agree with some of the other comments...the promo put the wrong spin on things.

The Janeway/Doctor scene was a powerful as they come. She has taken such responsiblity for all her crew but none more than the Doctor. His existence is dependant on her word. Not just whether he lives or dies but how he is treated as a full member of the crew. Her "tough-love" handling of the Doc's mistake (and yes, his over zealous forey into psychology was frought with several mistakes) was right on target IMHO.

On 7's mental state. Danger Will Robinson! The girl is a mental time bomb and needs to be watched fairly closely. She is recovering from an enormous violation as a human being. We Star Trek fans spent an entire movie on the after-effects of Borg Simulation on the-living-embodiment-of-decorum Capt Picard. Even he went postal after being Borgafied (recall the holodeck scene). Capt Janeway is without a ships councilor so she should look to the Doc to help. Clearly this may be a way of putting the Doc back up on the horse that threw him. I think she should have Chakotay follow the "treatment", however, and make sure some balance is achieved. I wouldn't try to bring out repressed memories but I would encourage discussion sessions on her reentry to the Human collective.

Finally, I thought both the acting and writing was on-target as well. Like many others, I felt they did a good job of portraying Kovin as easy to dislike. The lesson here is that just because someone rubs you the wrong way, it doesn't mean they don't deserve the same rights as someone you like.

Terry [Sherlock Holmes] -- 27 Feb 1998, 7:58 PM

Were Seven's memories accurate? One question that has been only covered briefly here is the question of whether Seven's memories had a basis in fact and if so, how accurate were they?

Seven's account:

While working with her on adjusting the sighting mechanism on the hand-held thoron disrupter, Kovin pointed it at her and fired. She was rendered immediately unconscious. She awoke on a combination medical bed/operating table. She was under restraints and helpless. Kovin and a female alien were standing over her. There was an male alien also under restraint in a nearby bed.

Kovin and his assistant proceeded to extract Borg nonprobes from her in a very painful and terrifying manner despite her protestations. Kovin then injected some of these nanoprobes into the other captive and he underwent a painful Borg assimilation. Finally, Kovin pointed a device at Seven's head and she blacked out. her next memory is of being back in Kovin's gunshop with a damaged hand and no idea of how the injury was received.

Kovin's account:

While working with Seven on adjusting the sighting mechanism on the hand-held thoron disrupter, he misaligned the device and it discharged into Seven, burning her hand. After this point, the stories match again.

Medical Evidence:

No evidence of an extraction of nanoprobes from Seven's body or of damage from restraints could be found. (Or so I am assuming.) But such injuries could easily have been healed by Kovin or by Seven's own implants.

Evidence was found of a physical cause (radiation) for Seven's memory blockage. The Doctor initially believed this radiation came from an external source. He later admitted the possibility of an internal source - Borg implants. But the implant theory was sheer conjecture with no real evidence supporting it. (Perhaps the thoron discharge was involved?)

Physical Evidence:

Seven remembered many details about the surgical lab and the instruments or tools used on her and the other test subject. Probably too well for her own good. She precisely described the tool which were later found at Kovin's gunshop. While this would seem to support her story, actually it can be turned around to weaken it. Why would Kovin use tools intended for work on weapons as surgical instruments? Why would he bring these tools back to his gunshop? And if one supposes that he had two sets of such tools, one for each location, then Seven is identifying the wrong tools. And Seven herself presumably admitted to handling these tools in the gunshop.

Logical Consistency:

Both stories are basically logical and straightforward. But there are a couple of flaws in both. According to Seven, she was allowed to wake and stay awake during the ordeal. Why? I can't see a reason why the nanoprobes couldn't have been more easily extracted from her unconscious body. And then she wouldn't have witnessed the crime. Second, the immediate injection of the probes into a test subject doesn't appear to make sense. You would think that Kovin would study the probes first.

According to Kovin, they were adjusting the rifle for two hours, during which time the rifle discharged into Seven's hand. Why doesn't Seven remember working on the adjustments for two hours? Where did the missing two hours go? And why didn't Seven remember the thoron rifle accident?

Flaws in the Investigation:

There were some flaws and omissions in the investigation, both before and after Kovin's flight. The existence of a surgical lab was never confirmed or refuted. There were two other possible witnesses who were never sought out. And Tuvok never considered using a Vulcan mind-meld to verify Seven's memories.

Kovin's facilities were never fully searched for the surgical lab with the operating tables described by Seven. This search was proposed but canceled when Kovin fled. It still should have been performed after his death for Seven's peace of mind. No one ever investigated the matter of Kovin's female assistant. Her existence would have supported Seven's case. But in any case, she should have been sought and thoroughly questioned.

And finally, there was the smoking gun of the alien test subject. The alien authorities should have searched for missing persons matching his description. Another avenue that Tuvok could have taken the investigation is into Seven's mind itself with a mind-meld. But probably he felt it would serve no purpose since everyone already believed she was telling the truth as she knew it.

Conclusions:

In my mind, there are three possibilities: hallucination, absolute truth, or truth muddled with false memories. I reject the idea of a totally fictitious hallucination. Seven was quite obviously scared of Kovin. She didn't just dislike him or get angry at his "inefficiency"; she was scared. Something happened in his gunshop to make her frightened of him. Seven's story might be the exact truth. While evidence is lacking to strongly support her case, nothing directly contradicted it either. I was sorely disappointed with the Doctor's defection after he viewed the activated nanoprobes. Those probes only failed to confirm Seven's theory; they did not contradict it. But I must admit that I subscribe to the theory that Seven remembered Kovin's assault inperfectly. These memories were likely mixed with others memeories of Sickbay, the gunshop, and/or Borg assimilations. It must be remembered that she was groggy and under extreme duress during the ordeal.

I believe that she might have remembeed the gunshop tools instead of the actual instruments. Or she might have placed gunshop tables with Sickbay beds. It's more of a reach but she might even have constructed the alien's assimilation from extrapolation from what she knew Kovin might eventually do. So I believe that there was insufficient evidence to judge Kovin guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. But that Seven was assaulted by him in roughly the manner she described.