Elogium

Voyager Revisited: Elogium
Jules -- 5 Jun 2002, 16:06 EST

"I'm going through the elogium. It's a time of change, when my body prepares for fertilisation." -- Kes

"Humans go through the same kind of process. It's called puberty." -- Janeway

"But I'm too young. Much too young. It usually happens between the ages of four and five. I'm... I'm not even two yet." -- Kes

Re: Voyager Revisited: Elogium
janey -- 5 Jun 2002, 21:47 EST

I miss Kes. I've missed hanging out here too. Busy as a beaver am I. This whole time management thing is NOT fun. But I thought I'd drop by and see what you all were up to. And you know what I learned? Catching up is HARD WORK! You guys talk way too much. Though I shouldn't talk...I had a tendency to ramble a bit around here didn't I!

Oh I was supposed to talk about something wasn't I? Ah yes, Elogium. The third season is in reruns in my neck of the woods right now and as whenever I rewatch an episode from the first three seasons my first thought is, I miss Kes.

And I enjoyed this particular episode. Rewatching it I noticed it was a little cheesier than I remembered, but I still got that sighy, twinge in my heart and throat when Kes is freaking out in sickbay and Her Royal Captainship comes to sooth nerves and fears.

I'd forgotten how much I enjoyed the scene between Tuvok and Neelix in the mess hall. It got me to thinking that even though the scene was supposed to be about Neelix and his possible impending fatherhood, we actually get a lot of insight into Tuvok.

That's all for now. And I'll be back, sometime between now and whenever...

Ah, the good old days!
Nina -- 5 Jun 2002, 21:53 EST

When we had Kes, and she brought out the best in (among other characters) the Doctor. I absolutely loved her scenes with the Captain in this one.

Neelix irritated heck out of me, and Tuvok finally started feeling like the well-rounded character he was destined to become. And Chakotay smiled...I'm taking that thought with me, off line and off to bed. It's late, and that's a great way to end my day!

Kesfest: Elogium Revisited
Diane -- 6 Jun 2002, 08:14 EST

Wasn't this the episode where the Doctor and Kes really bonded and became more like father and daughter?

Wasn't it the Doctor who rubbed Kes' feet? Wasn't that honor given to Ocampan fathers? I remember that as one of the highlights of Elogium, the bonding with the Doctor, which culminated in The Swarm where Kes takes care of The Doctor as he goes through software Alzheimer.

Oh how I missed Kes!

Diane

ZOOOOOOOOOOOOOOM! Did somebody say Kes?
Eric -- 6 Jun 2002, 08:42 EST

Elogium means Hot Sweaty Kes in Ocampan!

While not a powerful as Before and After and Jennifer looked much hotter in Cold Fire Elogium does have it's own special charms.

Why Rick didn't call ME to give Kes her foot massage i still can't figure out. I just KNOW he got my resume!

Eric

Looking at "Elogium" in the aftermath of "Projections".
Deb47 -- 9 Jun 2002, 18:38 EST

Hi all, sorry I'm late to the party, but I didn't want to post without rewatching the show. And since I rewound the tape too far, and saw the last 10 minutes of "Projections"... I naturally had to rewatch both before grasping the true essence of the topic.

First, I really wish they had kept both eps in their original order, at the end of season 1. They make much more sense there... and I'm not "just" talking about Wildman's pregnancy.

I'm talking about the "obvious" questions of people pairing off... It took how many months before Chakotay caught someone kissing someone else on board? Makes more sense that would have cropped up the first few weeks if not months in the DQ. His little tete e tete with Janeway over "fraternization" and procreation, not to mention a "generational ship" would also have made more sense in season 1...

But then again, I'm not a network programmer.

Second... "Elogium" certainly had much to recoomend it to Eric's YAM brotherhood... a wet Kes, the suggestion that coupling with an Ocampan would take "6 days", not to mention a J/K bearhug. Despite all that... "Elogium" had something to reccomend it to my J/C sisterhood. It was the first time "I" noticed he had dimples!

"Projections" showed us an ep where we saw the Doc's delusion of how he interacted with the crew. "Elogium" showed us how the crew interacted in reality.

Chakotay being the Ex-O... breaking up unauthorized fraternization, chatting about it with the Captain, later chatting more deeply about the implications of a 70 year journey with said Captain, and coming up with the ultimate idea on how to deal with the creatures since force was not helping. (I guess his anthropology roots were showing this early?!)

Tom being himself, a friendly guy who's not above being sweet to any Pixie within visual range, who's Tops at his job piloting the Voyager through a morass of hot to trot spacedwelling creatures, and who's Janeway's favorite handrest while experiencing turbulence on the bridge.

Neelix, who (unfortunately in my eyes) continues to show that jealous streak aluded to in "Projections", but also shows his ability to recognize his error and apologize, who's quick to see "danger" in the strange eating patterns of his friend and just as quick... (poor shmuck) to overreact in sickbay when the Doc can't give him an answer THIS INSTANT to his beloved's problem. Loved his conversation with Janeway on the bridge regarding a "flesh and blood" being thrown out of sickbay by a hologram, and loved his tender plea to Kes to let him help her when she locked herself away. More so, loved the way he sat down with Tuvok to talk "Man to Man" about fatherhood, and the way he ultimately responded to Kes' decision to delay parenthood.

Speaking of Tuvok, I loved the dry way he spoke with Neelix on the value of Fatherhood all the while encouraging him not to embark on it if he had doubts. And speaking of the tactical officer, I appreciated the way he began to back up our hotheaded Klingon's desire to blast a few aliens out of the sky.

B'Elanna was more the "wonder" engineer this week than insightful crewman as she developed her "targ scoop" and pushed to do more than pussyfoot around the aliens... but then "somebody" has to be the voice of expediency and emotion each week, and it was B'Elanna's turn this time.

(That's the nice thing about hotheads... they can get away with making such statements and no-one holds it against them. Just like no-one holds it against emotionless Vulcans who claim they experience neither joy nor sadness in children.)

I must say, I also liked the Doctor on many levels this week. First, we realized from the previous week's episode that he can appreciate the beauty in the assistant that works with him day in and day out.

(Just as we realized in "Projections" thatshe appreciates him enough not just to discuss the nature of existance with him, but to tease him about it as well!)

In "Elogium" however, we realize that he has McCoy's cojonnes when it comes to running his sickbay and tossing out any distractions negatively impacting his patient's care, not to mention the intelligence to call for help when his patient's actions do the same. I loved watching him in the background as Kes spoke with Janeway, he was silent, he was attentive, and when they were getting "personal" he stepped back and away so they could have the appearence (if not the fact) of privacy. And I loved his attempts to assist her in finding her way, whether it was in massaging her feet as a good father would, or helping her to decide for herself whether the path she was on would lead her to her bliss.

Speaking of Kes... she was many things in this episode, the put-upon girlfriend who's tired of her fellow not trusting her... to the comedienne munching beetles and dirty mashed potates (HOWLED when she munched the flowers Neelix brought her as a peace offering!), to the frightened child hiding in the Doctor's office, to the confused female on the cusp of adulthood. My favorite Kes scene is with the Doc this week (Surprise!). When she sat up and pulled her feet from the Doc and began talking of intellect overpowering biologic need... I went "ahh". "Rodan's Woman"?

Speaking of "The Thinking Woman"... I did so enjoy Janeway in this ep. Whether it was when she was being teased by Chakotay about "pairing off"... ("Besides, I still plan on getting home before Mark gives me up for dead.")...

Ignoring the ranting of a Talaxian until he ranted about something besides himself...("Keeping me from the side of a loved one who is gravely ill!"... "Kes is ill?")...

Opening herself up to a frightened child-woman ("Kes... maybe I can help.)

Opening herself up to her Ex-O, not just about his prophetic remarks on fraternization, but about the bigger implications of being 70 lightyears away from home. She might NOT get home before Mark gives her up for dead. She might NOT get home before Mark is dead!

Keeping her "cool" and sticking to her prinicples when her staff starts to let their fears run their decisions... i.e. not blasting an animal from space just because it sent a plasma charge Voyager's way that did no harm.

Allowing herself to be over-ruled when someone else had a better idea on escaping their quandry.

Cry "uncle" and slip away.

I loved the humor... whether it was Tuvok bemoaning the fact that Voyager "Lost our sex appeal", or whether it was Janeway suggesting she'd feel free to consult with Chakotay about mating behaviour in the future.

I loved the bonding, whether it was nameless crew sucking face in the turbolift, or Neelix carrying Kes to sickbay, or Janeway grabbing Tom's shoulder for stability, or Kes "jumping" into Janeway's arms in sickbay, or Janeway massaging Kes' back, or Neelix reassuring Mr Tuvok that they would get him home to his children, or the EMH putting his hand on Kes' shoulder, or Kes reassuring Neelix that children were still a possibility.

Heck... I even liked the fact that Wildman came to Janeway at the end to tell her... "The Captain of her new family"... that she was pregnant. A pregnancy made even more important, more poignant, because it was the only tangible thing she had of her old life... her faraway husband.

The ending... with Janeway looking at the door as it closes on the retreating Wildman, is itself poignant.

70,000 lightyears is a long way.

The child Ensign Wildman is carrying will be 33 years older when he/she gets to Earth than Janeway is now.

What is our thinking woman, thinking now?

D47

This is one of those episodes that I think of questions on rewatching that never occurred to me when
D -- 9 Jun 2002, 20:17 EST

The most obvious is how do the Ocompa survive if each woman only has one chance to have a child? And I know that in Trek different species frequently mate, but having a hybrid child often seems to take time (Sam says she and her husband had been trying for a while) or medical intervention. In Kes's case wouldn't the Doctor have needed to do something to insure she'd become pregnant since Neelix isn't Ocompan? And Neelix's jealousy bugs me more now than when it first aired, probably because I know we have to endure a lot more of it before they break up.

Samantha just realizing she was pregnant would have made a lot more sense had this been shown at the end of Season 1, as I think it was intended, though they did give a retroactive explanation of the long pregnancy in Season 6. The whole question of the crew having children could have made an interesting recurring discussion but I don't remember anyone talking about babies (other than Naomi) until "Lineage" (the Borg baby doesn't count).

The CGI business with the creatures is OK, they're really there just to cause and end Kes's dilemma.

Re: thinking woman
Janey -- 9 Jun 2002, 21:46 EST

Well I think you outlined what she thinks pretty well.

Oh you meant our captain, not you, silly me.

Neelix's jealousy always bugged me.
Deb47 -- 10 Jun 2002, 04:55 EST

In fact, I think his character grew after he and Kes broke up because the writers dropped the un-endearing characteristic.

Perhaps TPTB were trying to be bold and different, showing us a character trait we haven't seen before in a ST regular? If so, I would have preferred if they found another trait than the one they showed us for nearly 3 years.

D47

Re: thinking woman
Deb47 -- 10 Jun 2002, 04:58 EST

This HAS to be the shortest Janey post on record, when discussing KJ!

Going back to Cleveland in August, or do you live too far away now?

D47

Ah, network programmers. Who needs them?
Jules -- 10 Jun 2002, 08:40 EST

We're working through the episodes in the order the rest of the world saw them in, rather than the UPN rejig, so Chakotay and Janeway's talk about fraternisation is taking place in "season one"... kinda sorta. In any case, I originally saw the episode as part of season one, and you're right that that conversation really belongs there... although it really really belongs back around "Ex Post Facto". You'd think that a bout of off-ship fraternisation would have turned Chakotay and Janeway's thoughts a little closer to home, wouldn't you?

I've always loved that eating scene where the horrified Neelix drags Kes off to sickbay. It shows that, though the part of Kes rarely demands it, Jennifer Lien has nice comedic timing. The bit where Neelix lifts her up and carries her out bodily, while she's still frantically devouring the flowers in her hand cracks me up every time.

And yes, Neelix's jealous streak was played in rather ham-fisted manner throughout the whole of this season. I do tend to give it more leniency than it possibly deserves though, simply because I'm fond of "Parturition" where it all comes to a head, but it would have been better in many ways if we'd seen Tom awaken to the fact that he was falling for Kes earlier, to give Neelix's fears more substance. On the other hand, it is very typical of Neelix's overall lack of self confidence. The fears that make him do stupid and reckless things in "Fair Trade" when he fears his usefulness as a guide to Janeway is over, are the same fears that make him convinced that he's not good enough for his girlfriend, that someone else is bound to be interested in her, and that sooner or later it'll be a someone with whom she'll reciprocate. And, as we know, while Tom's intentions are honourable towards both Kes and Neelix, he's not that far wide of the mark in his suspicions. At another time or under other circumstances, it is indeed possible that Tom and Kes can become a couple.

This Janeway/Mark shipper notices that he's still her first thought when it comes to fraternisation. Ahhh...

Jules

Feeling all nostalgic now for those days when Tom was Janeway's favourite handrest. Sigh...

To be fair to Neelix...
Jules -- 10 Jun 2002, 08:44 EST

We didn't really see the overwhelming jealousy again after he and Tom settled their differences in "Parturition". (Reasonably early in season two, whatever order you watched the episodes in.) After that it was just Insecure!Neelix, who we saw right up until he said goodbye in season seven.

So we only really got the jealousy shoved down our throats for one season. Still probably one season too long though, however plausible a character trait it might be for Neelix.

Ah, yes. The good ol'days. *sigh*
Geordi -- 10 Jun 2002, 12:24 EST

With VOY over now, I can't help but compare the early years to the later years. True, that the later seasons have their 'hits and misses', but I can't help to feel the early seasons were special compare to the later seasons. Maybe it's because the episodes used more of the cast in an assmebled story than the lateral seasons did. Maybe it was because of the wonderment of exploring the crew had before they became hard and cold later on. Maybe it's... *sigh*... Maybe it's because I too miss Tom being a handrest for Janeway. (Blasted &*&#$* TPTB for telling Kate and Robbie to tone it down after "Blood Fever". )

From what I have read of the posts so far, "Elogium" have mixed reactions, which depends on which season one has view it in. I saw it in Season 2, and I thought it was an okay, fun episode.

I don't think it would have made a differnce if it was viewed in Season 1 or early Season 2, for Voyager still was in the early days of their DQ mission. The crew still have to sort-out themselves to the journey and each other, despite that "The 37's" showed they were all determine to stick together.

Fraternization shouldn't be a surprise to Chakotay, for he knew as much as Janeway that the crew would slowly pair up, especially for those who have no attachments back in the AQ. And the whole point of whether the crew should be allow to have families or not was made moot by Wildman's announcment of her pregnecy. I just love that ending to bring the whole story of the episode to a close.

Hmmmmmm.... I find it ironic that Neelix in "Elogium" would feel insecure about being a father, while later on he would become a good godfather to Naomi Wildman. I think his time in helping Sam during her pregnecy mellowed him to the thought of being a parent.

Anyway, I thought this was a good episode, especially for Kes, whom revealed more background on herself and the Ocampans.

Someone's got to model for my voodoo dolls.
Ronit -- 10 Jun 2002, 16:22 EST

Any space problems caused by an overlarge ego are remedied by a lack of grey matter.

Ronit

Ahhh, Tom will always be Janeway's favorite handrest.
Deb47 -- 10 Jun 2002, 20:34 EST

But knowing her chief engineer as well as she does, that's "all" she'll ever do with Tom.

And keep her entrails intact.

Speaking of Janeway/Mark... I think she's staring at his picture before Wildman comes in to spill the beans about her pregnancy.

Sigh.

D47

Janeway afraid of Torres? Not likely!
Geordi -- 10 Jun 2002, 20:49 EST

Janeway is *the* captain, so I doubt she'll be afraid of her chief engineer. Respect, yes. Afraid. Not likely. If Janeway can stare down the Borg, she shouldn't have no problem with keeping Tom as her handrest or more from a certain half-Klingon engineer.

Re: Ah, yes. The good ol'days. *sigh*
Iowa Gal STV Fan -- 13 Jun 2002, 14:46 EST

"Maybe it's... *sigh*... Maybe it's because I too miss Tom being a handrest for Janeway. (Blasted &*&#$* TPTB for telling Kate and Robbie to tone it down after "Blood Fever". )"------------------------------------

Hi Geordi, I have a question for you. Where did you find out about TPTB telling Kate and Robbie to tone it down? I've heard it before, but never knew the source for that tidbit.

And I too miss Janeway using Paris for a handrest.

Where I heard it?
Geordi -- 13 Jun 2002, 17:53 EST

I know I have read about it in either a Kate or Robbie interview where it was mentioned by the actor that TPTB, after "Blood Fever", had asked them to tone it down. I may have to ask the Totally Kate list if anyone remember exactly what interview it was. I'm guessing it was Kate who had mentioned it.

Anyway, it's obviously why TPTB want them to tone down the hand-touching-shoulder stuff, for they want Paris and Torres to become a couple thus they don't want fans to think Janeway is coming on to Paris.

I could swear that KM choose to cut the touching herself.
Terry -- 13 Jun 2002, 19:34 EST

I seem to remember some third or fourth season interview in which Mulgrew said that she learned that female U.S. military officers wouldn't do that so she stopped it.

Dang it! Starfleet isn't supposed to be some purely military unit. And Janeway herself was supposed to be more of a scientist.

Sometimes it's the actor's choice. It's hard to tell with KM sometimes because she usually voices the company line. It's hard to tell if she made a decision or was just supporting the producers.

I just read the title of my above post.
Terry -- 13 Jun 2002, 19:37 EST

Just last week I was talking to someone about stupid newspaper headlines that had multiple possible parsings, some unintentionally funny.

I didn't mean to imply that Mulgrew is any less of a Divinyls fan than before.

That's not what I heard
Geordi -- 13 Jun 2002, 19:43 EST

What you mentioned is a *first* to me, for I heard that she doesn't mind the touching. To her, the touching is meant to show comfort and support, a connection between captain and crewperson.

Besides, look at the episodes before "Blood Fever" and compare to the episodes after. Janeway was shown touching Tom's shoulder more often before "BF" than after, so it does have some merit that TPTB told Kate to tone down the hand-on-shoulder touching.

bwa-ha-ha-ha
tragic fan -- 13 Jun 2002, 20:28 EST

Sorry, having a very juvenile moment here:

I read the last line of Terry's post about unintended meanings ("I didn't mean to imply that Mulgrew is any less of a Divinyls fan than before.") then jumped straight to the title of Geordi's following post ("That's not what I heard")

tf

D'oh! Talk about unintentional timing for humor. (NIM)
Geordi -- 13 Jun 2002, 21:09 EST

Howl! Well, that's ending a bad day on a good note, Terry!
MEG -- 13 Jun 2002, 22:45 EST

So to speak!

Since I remembered Mulgrew's comments and (for once in my life) remembered where I read them, it took only a little research to dig them out. Here they are, from a Q&A session printed in Now Voyager #17:

I have helped with these recent developments in the storyline. I've distilled her, and I feel that authority is key--in my case, I would like to make it gracious, and human, and accessible. But I would under no circumstances like to be known as the 'touchy' captain, because on all the ships I've visited since I started this role, I've never noticed once a captain touch a crewman. I've never noticed it, actually, in any position of great authority. So I observe that, and I take it to heart--I don't think that it has to be severely curtailed with Janeway, but I have to be quite selective. I would prefer to do it on a one-on-one, I would prefer to do it when it is absolutely necessary to the well-being of the other person or myself within that scene. It shouldn't be arbitrary, it should be important. That's my way of saying to whoever it is, "I understand how you're feeling--I don't have time to express all of this, but I'm going to touch you."

I'll try posting a link to the original below. There wasn't a date given for the comments themselves, but the issue they were printed in was from August 1997.

Skimming back through some of this material as I searched was a little depressing -- I used to genuinely admire Mulgrew, and now I can't bring myself to read her interviews or accounts of her appearances. Ah, well. I am not going to be depressed. I'm going to go read Terry's headline again.

MEG

http://www.geocities.com/TelevisionCity/Station/1965/archive/nowvoy17.txt

Thanks for the link.
Deb47 -- 14 Jun 2002, 07:22 EST

I liked this Q & A...

Kate: "I'd like to see her get into her relationships with her crew. Real people. It's why I objected so strenuously to the Doctor episode, "Real Life"--why would the Doctor, who was a hologram, be the only one to explore relationships? I have a little struggle with all that holodeck stuff, and I'm hoping against hope that the Da Vinci thing works. But even if it doesn't, it's a place for me to go alone, and have talks with Chakotay. The set works beautifully. I'm just going in there to write, and read--use it as Janeway's getaway. He comes in, and I let him in slowly--I'm a little mixed about him, since the Borg thing."

Very interesting to read her thoughts before the Borg Phenomenon took hold of Voyager.

Also liked the Q & A's later which discussed J/C further, and where her son grouses about the half naked people in the holodeck.

D47

Re: Howl! Well, that's ending a bad day on a good note, Terry!
Iowa Gal STV Fan -- 14 Jun 2002, 12:14 EST

Thank you Meg for the link to Mulgrews comments. Interesting stuff. And I love reading the fan commemts about the Voyager episodes too.

Thanks for the link and info, but...
Geordi -- 14 Jun 2002, 16:27 EST

I don't think her words mentioned in that interview specifically is referred to the hands-on-shoulder touching in general. Plus her words are contradicting each other. She mentioned how much she wants to convey, as a captain, that she is there for her crew, while also saying that she saw other captains not touching their crews.

I know deep down that I have read somewhere that Kate or Robbie mentioned that TPTB did told them to tone down the hand-on-shoulder touching, especially after "Blood Fever". If only I or someone can remember *where*.

I think KM was clear.
Terry -- 14 Jun 2002, 19:31 EST

No more casual, public touching. Only in emotional scenes to provide or receive comfort.

Still not clear to me. Sorry. (shrug) (NIM)
Geordi -- 14 Jun 2002, 21:56 EST

Re: Cleveland
Janey -- 24 Jun 2002, 22:20 EST

Trying trying trying to pull it together!

Re: Cleveland
Deb47 -- 24 Jun 2002, 23:36 EST

Good!

Looks like my Northeastern branch of the HOJ will be arriving en mass after all. We will, however, be going on the D47 economy plan. (see previous post re $600??)

Seems I just needed to let the idea foster in their psyche's, after all! (Helps to have the mothers "look forward" to a summer with the children, to get them to see the wisdom of a weekend without the children! )

If things look positive, and you want some company, drop me a line. Like I said earlier, we're going to do a little theater hopping and probably some Titanic viewing while we're in town.

D47