The Coffee Nebula Board is for the discussion of Star Trek: Voyager and other sci-fi/cult shows. This is its Archive of episode discussions, top ten lists, fan fiction, and other miscellaneous musings.
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"Who would have thought that this eclectic group of voyagers could actually become a family. Starfleet, Maquis, Klingon, Talaxian, hologram, Borg... even Mr Paris." |
PhageVOYAGER REVISITED: Phage
"Well, if I'm going to be in here a while, now's as good a time as any to tell you. Your ceiling is hideous." -- Neelix "I didn't design the room, I just work here." -- the Doctor Jules PHAGE wasn't a bad disease! I didn't like this episode during Voyager's first run for some reason, but when I saw it again about a year ago, I changed my mind. This episode has me kind of looking forward to the early days of ENTERPRISE, because Braga showed in his early VOYAGER work (this and "Parallax") that he could introduce the characters in a nice way by having them continuously bounce off each other. "Phage" has some great one-liners. The "hall of mirrors" was lame but all in all this episode made for some enjoyable viewing, if you don't take it too seriously. Jason Re: Phage You know what I really love about this episode, especially in retrospect? The teamwork. Janeway was willing to solicit and (gasp!) accept advice from her officers. And, Chakotay was still strong and smart and in full possession of a backbone. I also liked the Vidians, as they appeared in this episode. Very interesting villans. Of course, in subsequent episodes they became the standard one-dimensional bad guys, but they showed great potential in this episode. Vickie Re: Phage I was already in love with Tom by the time this episode aired and he just added to his cuteness trying to be the doctor's nurse. And I loved Neelix " he's just one big hormone walking around the ship"-- HAHA I also liked the doc in this episode, because for the first time he showed his ingenuity and at the same time realized his limitations he really had trouble relating to with the wounded Neelix. I also really wondered at TPTB for making Neelix and Kes a couple I never ever believed that relationship, he was too domineering and she too young and sweet. And his line at the end "No kes let someone else donate one of their lungs" like who I wonder, no one was that good a friend at this point. Phage A definite improvement after Time & Again. Philips has always been good at doing panicky and fretting about things; his character on Benson, as I remember, was often in one of those states. We don't learn a lot new about Neelix here, but it does show his eagerness to help and fit in. He is making the effort to become more fully a part of the crew, studying procedures, but he still has a long way to go in learning about doing things the Starfleet way. Not asking before turning the Captain's dining room into a galley for the adjoining mess hall was a breach of protocol, but no harm was done. Not following Chakotay's orders on the planet and continuing to explore on his own had serious consequences. He learns the hard way that "procedures exist for a reason". The doctor really starts moving beyond his programming here, beginning the progression towards sentience. He comes up with an "out of the box" solution to Neelix's predicament, but not before questioning whether he can handle the job of CMO and a well timed reminder from Kes that his program is adaptable and he can learn. Do we have Neelix to blame for Doc's interest in music? Continuity: I'd forgotten that the jealous of Paris theme started so early, traceable to the conference room scene in Paralax, but first articulated here. Paris is relieved from sickbay duty with Kes becoming the doctor's assistant. I've always wondered if TPTB planned that from the start. Power shortages and the search for resources. This really was a continuing concern that was talked about and provided story lines, in this episode and well into the second season. They finally got the right uniform for Seska, but her name still hasn't been mentioned. I'm not sure I'd have even realized it was her in her one scene in engineering if I hadn't noticed Hackett listed as a guest star. Nits: In her scenes on the Bridge B'Elanna is at the Science Station, not Engineering. Janeway tells Tuvok to bring 2 security guards when they're going back to the planet, but there's only one extra when they get there. Ive always liked Phage I will rewatch it and report back but it's an almost excellent episode. Other than the annoyingness of S1 Neelix esp exhibited here, I like the ep a lot, esp Janewya's superb speech at the end. david g ps hey Jason, i love the hall of mirrors! Re: VOYAGER REVISITED: Phage I really did not like this as a whole. I liked Chakotay because he was such a stronger charcter. I also liked the Doctor and Capt. Janeway who were growing in their character. Learning to trust the people around you and coming together as a family. But the basic plot of Neelix's lungs being stolen I found pretty lame. Overall I did not like this episode. Kathryn "Quite!" That has to be one of my favorite lines... from the Vidian to Janeway after she threatened to meet any further aggressive action from his species "with the deadliest" of force. Sigh. Loved this ep, loved this idea. I don't think we as North Ameicans are quite as aware of the "organ harvesting" going on in third world countries. I recall one of our evening news programs showing a village in (?) India where they had 20 or so young men lined up showing identical scars along the left side of their torso where surgeons had "harvested" a kidney for some rich foreigner who's own kidneys were "gone". Organ harvesting isn't science fiction. Its a daily reality in some economic cultures and its moral implications are huge for all our cultures. I really liked this ep for many reasons, including the continued emphasis on things being "different". They are 70 years from home, so Tuvok can't put B'Elanna in the brig for the duration in "Parallax", and Janeway can't put these harvesters in the brig for the same reason. She can't even find anyone to turn them over to... and frankly wouldn't know if in this sector of space whether people even care what the Vidians do. Heck, she can't even "Kill" them, since as "Starfleet" we know she doesn't go along with Capital punishment, hence can't kill them "in cold blood". But... she CAN and WILL kill them if she is attacked again... which she effectively communicates to both men. "Quite" effectively... I might add.
Other things I liked... the introduction of Neelix to the Starfleet method. Indications that he IS learning some Starfleet ropes or at least the starfleet tricorder manual. But even though he's learning the ropes, he's not giving up his "old tricks". I have NO DOUBT he KNEW who's private dining room that was... but as the old saying goes... its easier to do something and beg forgiveness later than to get permission in the first place!
I loved the humor in the ep... whether it was how Kes and Tom and the Doc all looked up at the ceiling... as if first noticing it was even there... Or how the Doc reassured Neelix, "Don't worry. I'm not going to Kiss you." And Neelix just as quickly replied,"I'll trying to contain my dissappointment."
I loved the way Kes began to explore the ramifications of dealing with an artificial being... something she gets quite good at in the next couple of eps... And like (?) D... i noticed it wa Neelix' fault for bringing up the idea of the Doc singing IN THE 1ST place!
I loved this ep... for the feeling of being lost and adrift in an area of space unkown and frightening. And as for shortages... just think. We haven't even HIT "The Cloud" yet.
D47 The organ harvesting is a terrific plot Terrifying and all too plausible and, for Trek, original. I cant remember who said they didnt like this, but im wondering if yu meant the organ-stealing itself or the Neelix whininess, or both? david g Brrrrr That is always my first thought when I think of "Phage," because that is what I felt when I first watched it. Organ stealers? The tought is frightening enough. Creepy looking aliens? (though I did feel bad for them) Janeway's speech? She dropped the temperature in that room so fast I'm surprised they didn't have icicles on their faces. I am probably one of the few people - perhaps the only person - who liked Neelix from day one. So I was very concerned for my furry friend. And he was so excited about his first away mission. He studied his tricorder manuel and everything. That was so cute. Though Chakotay didn't seem all that thrilled. A small note for my on going Kes has Janeway wrapped around her finger theory, Janeway's eyes briefly go to saucers when Kes volunteers to donate the lung. That's all I can think of. My brain is still stuck on "any action taken against this ship or its crew . . ." Like I said...brrrr. Re: Brrrrr Janey, I also liked Kes in this ep. I liked the way she flew to Neelix' side in sickbay, and would not be denied by the EMH. I LOVE her "Then MAKE time" remark as the "Computer" only thought of "rescue" and the humanoid thought of "consequences". Heck I even love the EMH's reply,,, a variation of "If I do surgery, he MAY die, if I don't he WILL die." I love her later interaction when she got this computer program to confess it has "doubts" about its capacity to help Neelix with his emotional problems, and her judgment... 'You haven't BEEN acceptable... you've been REMARKABLE!" What a cheerleader! And finally... future continuity note. I "will" love it when in 3 more years, Neelix and Janeway will be crawling through Jefferies tubes during "Macrocosm", and Neelix gets sick. As Janeway scans him, she says... "Your lungS are filling up with fluid." To which he simply replies.... "Lung." Quite.
D47 Organ Harvesting, Stem Cell Therapy and PHAGE With organ harvesting and stem cell therapy driving bioethicists, scientist, theologians and politicians crazy, I actually thought the concept behind PHAGE and the Vidians was very good, very apropo and capable of being extremely thoughtful and thought-provoking. Unfortunately, I think in actual handling of the storyline, the writers fell on their collective arses. Deb, I did see an article, I can't remember if it was in TIME or NEWSWEEK or even MARIE CLAIR (you'd be surprised, that magazine does some excellent exposes and stories about such issues), about the selling of organs in the third world to rich Arabs and other b@stards. I also think the whole ruckus about stem cell therapy (and which way do you think I go on that, campers? You might be surprised!) is apropo of PHAGE. Too bad the writers missed the boat on this one. Mindy Interestingly enough, I thought of "Nothing Human" When listening to Bush's reasoning behind using only the 60 strands that are now available he said they had already been harvested so there was nothing to be done. Might as well use them. I know very well where I come down on stem cell research. It is quite possibly the only ray of hope for my daughter. I certainly know where she comes down on it. She was glued to the TV yesterday waiting to hear what the vacationing president had to say. She was marginally pleased. Shadda Re: Missing the boat? How so, Mindy? As for stem cell research, I just think back to something my neuroanatomy prof predicted in 1982. He wanted to write a movie script based on the outcry against animal testing. Recall in the late 70's there was that whole blind bunnies/Max Factor ad campaign that was so successful? The local rag did a report on animal research and grabbed a Resident "just walking by" the lab to "hold a dog" for their article. Yeah, you guessed it, the hapless lad started getting death threats after it was published. ANYWAY.... My Prof suggested the whole animal rights movement would succeed in abolishing animal research, and then medical science would turn to the only thing left to it. Aborted fetuses. Granted, in his macabre (sp?) movie script, he had the researchers "harvesting" the aborted fetuses when they were still "technically" alive and keeping them so via a Brave New World style incubator. When I saw the lab from "Alien 4: Resurrection" I though Dr S's prediction was coming to pass. "May you live in interesting times." D47 "Interesting times." In 1978, I wrote a novel that Louise Brown (the first "test tube baby," born that year) helped to inspire. I've been rewriting it from scratch, this summer, in light of all that's happened since then. I finally felt ready, yesterday, to add the first three chapters to my home page. Now, mind you, that's not ALL the book is about. It's just one plot element among several, in a tale that grew from a poem I wrote while proctoring an unnaturally calm and quiet high school study hall. "Interesting times," indeed. Yet "Phage" is an episode that I enjoyed far more the first time I saw it than on subsequent viewings, which is the reverse of how "Voyager" episodes usually affect me. Not sure why, unless it's that the Vidiians were such a visceral shock to my system - and that can't be experienced twice. A good, solid episode in other respects, but that culture based on stealing other species' organs took a slippery slope on which we (the human race) were just starting...and showed us where it could go. To all those Third World young adults with the kidney removal scars! I'm rambling. Time to go off line and eat. Re: Missing the boat...and a rant. Well, my problem with PHAGE is not so much with the episode of itself, but the progression of the Vidians into "cartoon villains." They just became "bad guys" later on...I would have liked more philosophy mixed with my action, that's all. BTW, I did like the episode where they used B'lanna's DNA, very much, although I don't know why the Vids couldn't have just asked B'lanna for her DNA...it would have been an even stronger episode...something like the episode where Picard ordered Worf to use his blood to help save the Romulan, but Worf refused. But it the episode became about B'lanna's Klingon vs. Terran sides, instead of an ethical dilemma. And okay, since I brought it up...I don't think Bush's "compromise of compassion" is so great. In fact, I think he chickened out to his extreme right benefactors who put him in office in the first place. Frankly, I'm surprised he had the guts to go as far as he did. But... First of all, 60 genetic strains is NOTHING. There just isn't enough...oh, what's the word...variety will do, but that's not the exact word I'm looking for...there to help insure success. The chances of these strains dying are quite high, you know. So they could be down to 40, or 50, and then what? Secondly, these are not viable human embryos we are talking about. The correct medical term is BLASTOCYST. A clump of divided cells, people, anywhere from 16 to 32 individual cells. And every vertebrate starts out this way. You cannot tell a human blastocyst from a platypus blastocyst. (BTW,do you guys have ANY idea how many women miscarry at this stage without ever knowing it? The statistic is something like 90%!!!! Maybe even higher! That's right, less than 10% of naturally conceived pregnancies make it, and that's in healthy women!) Calling them embryos was/is a ploy of the extreme right, just as they call themselves "pro-life," as if people who don't want the government in their uteri are pro-death! It's clever semantics, guys! It's marketing psychology! Thirdly, there are something like 300,000 BLASTOCYSTS frozen in labs, which will never be used, which will simply be thrown out after 3 years because any chance of viability (being implanted in a woman's uterus and continuing the maturation process) is gone! So, instead of throwing these BLASTOCYSTS out, why not use them once it is made clear that the parents have no interest in saving them and the 3 year deadline is upon them? This will solve the problem of wide genetic variation, and greatly increase the odds of success! But, no, they're just going to be thrown out...well, that's not entirely true, because private companies will probably buy them, but there's no reason federal funding shouldn't be used for these BLASTOCYSTS. Fourthly, we are going to see a major brain drain in this country, as genetists and other scientists go to Europe to work. We are going to be sorry for this. Believe me. And fifthly, what the H@LL has happened to the separation of church and state in this country??? The Vatican has no business whatsoever sticking his nose into our country's politics whenever he likes. The Vatican is so worried about the sanctity of life, then where the H@LL was the Vatican during the Holocaust? How about those lives, Pope? And did Mr. Bush ask an Ayatollah or an Iman or a Rabbi or a Buddhist Monk what they thought? I doubt it. If Mr. Bush can't separate his religion from his office, he should not be President. Now, what I don't want to see is the equivalent of what Deb mentioned...the third world selling of organs to make money. I don't want to see women getting pregnant simply to produce these blastocysts to sell them to the highest bidder. THAT I definitely think is wrong and of great questionable ethics. That, I think, is the step in stem cell research that will bring us way too close to the BRAVE NEW WORLD of Alduous Huxley. And limiting the federal funding will help us get there, God help us. Mindy P.S.: Sorry, Jules. Shadda honey, read my "rant." I'm with you more than you think. (nim) Paranoia strikes again! I should be pleased but everytime one of these antichoice guys like O.Hatch and Tommy the T. speaks out for broad stem cell research, I smell gender politics underfoot. Nobody ever said I *wasn't* suffering from paranoid delusions! Anyway, Phage was a fascinating ep at the time. Perhaps Phage lost some of its bite when the problem lost its sci fi "horror" and became a *real* horror with its frequent appearance in the news. Not to mention the Vidians becoming the "action" villains of the week, as somebody else mentioned in this thread. Re: rant. Clip "I don't want to see women getting pregnant simply to produce these blastocysts to sell them to the highest bidder. THAT I definitely think is wrong and of great questionable ethics" Paste. Why not? As you said, there are many failed miscarriages a year... those "heavy periods" were heavier in more ways than one. If there's nothing to a blastocyst than 18-32 cells, where's the problem? Why can't extra egges be harvested during a "normal" in vitro trial, and then be used to produce excess blastocysts? The problem, I suspect, is the very one Janeway faced in "Nothing Human". Temptation. As the newspaper has pointed out, all families have been touched in some way by diseases which may be benefited by such research, including Bush's own family. Recall his baby sister died from leukemia oh so many years ago. The question is whether we should open Pandora's box, or leave it closed. Will the ends, justify the means? Or will we progress from cell lines of long dead blastocysts, to blastocysts on the edge of dying from freezer burn... to blastocysts manufactered for just this purpose, to other arenas best left to the minds of scifi writers? As for "Where was the Pope", Mindy...
He was in Poland, studying for the priesthood. You know Poland, the land where something like 30% of the Catholic priests died in Nazi Concentration camps? Perhaps his problem is that he learned too well what happens when "good people stand by and do nothing". You can and do disagree with his opinion on this subject, but where was it written he can't have an opinion? This, quite frankly, is why I LOVE scifi. We can argue about a myriad of "real world problems" without necessarily coming up with real world biases that often cause these arguments to degenerate into shouting matches instead of calm discussions. Well, except for "Nothing Human". In my local startrek group, it was "too close" to the Nazi/Jewish experiments of WWII to not smack of real world bias in our discussion. D47 Re: rant. Hey, Deb, that's what worries me...the temptation...I love science fiction, you know that, but some things I think should stay there...like human clones...the implications are just too scary...in fact, I can't really think offhand of a sci-fi book about clones that wasn't dystopian. Correct me if I'm wrong, okay? It's all mind-boggling, I know that...but somehow the idea of selling the blastocysts (and organs from people) just offends me...it's one thing to do it out of a desire to help and to do good, but somehow the idea of getting paid for it turns my stomach. So, then, you may ask, how do I feel about surrogate parenthood where the parents agree to pay for care of the expectant mother, the delivery, etc? I think they are good people doing right. But as for the "baby brokers?" They bother me. Okay, they're lawyers, they're doing a legal job, but can't they charge a little less? And what about the people (and I know a few) who spend thousands, upwards of $50-100K, to go to Russia or China or Rumania and take the unwanted kids? I think they are wonderful! What bothers me are the schnooks who they are forced to pay "under the table"...I know someone who arranged to adopt a baby from Russia, which cost $25,000 up front...and when she left to go to Russia to get the baby, she was advised to bring at least another $30K and be prepared to "slip" the judge, the orphanage, the matrons at the orphanage and the Russian embassy more money...quietly, of course. And of course, that's exactly what she had to do. That's what irks me. As for the Pope...I know he wasn't the Pope then, that he was a Resistance fighter, etc., and that he recently released a paper saying the Vatican was wrong during the Holocaust and asking for forgiveness from Israel, and getting it...and I believe he is a good man and nothing like Pope Pius during the WWII...but meanwhile the Vatican still doesn't have an embassy in Jerusalem. Pope Pius stayed out of the Holcaust and even aided the Nazis out of fear for the Vatican riches and, frankly, out of his basic anti-Semitism. I know many priests and nuns and lay Catholics also went to the camps...but they stood up to the Nazis despite Pius, out of acts of conscious, unable to deal with Pius' silence and bigotry. If Pius has stood up to the Nazis, I believe that millions of European Catholics would have done the same. Science fiction, good science fiction, is always an extrapolation of where we are now, and where we could be later. That's why I love it. Because it makes us think. So on that, my girlfriend, we both are in the same corner! It's all confusing, isn't it? Well, bottom line is, 99% of us are just trying to do the right thing, thank God. Mindy Maggie, what do you mean by "gender politics?" Do you mean that Hatch et.al. are saying they're for broader stem cell research because they want the women's vote? Mindy Re: dystopian... And to think, it was just 2 years ago that "I" was ripped a new orifice for using "big" words.
Thank God for dictionaries! I do not think there's a scifi novel out there that supports cloning, but then again I'm not as well read as I should be. A few weeks ago, I heard a commentator discuss the Italian scientist that was bragging (?) that he would be the first to clone a human beng, and what a great advance this was for the childless couples of the world. He ended by saying, "Nothing will ever be the smae"... and I jumped up and exclaimed, "WRONG!" That's the "problem" with "cloning". Everything WILL be the same. And that, to me, will mean the lessening of the human race. As for the things that irk me... lets just say...they are multiple. But the sins of those who came before us, should never be allowed to limit our ability to take a stand. If they are, then we are all in trouble. D47 No, not at all. My little paranoia neuron says that they're willing to compromise their own moral line because it so obviously and physically affects men as well as women. It's probably the result of too many years of arguing with my family over whether gender and family issues are important. Was he really a resistance fighter? Anyway, as a product of RC schooling, I have a hard time with religions and religious leaders who try to use more than moral persuasion. Re: Was he really ? Well, to paraphrase Bill Clinton... It depends on how you define "fighter". According to the sketchy biography I have, he went to join the Polish army when the Nazis invaded Poland, but was turned back when he discovered the Polish Army was no more after the Soviets also invaded. He went back to work in Crakow at a factory by day and worked with a theater group by night. Soon he realized where his true calling was, but the Nazis had placed a moratorium on new seminarians and so his acceptance as a student was in secret. He barely escaped capture at one point, when his apartment was raided by the Germans, and after that the Archbishop brought all the "secret" seminarians into his home to hide them. So, it really is how you define "fighter". Did he kill anyone/blow anything up? Apparently not. Does the fact that he didn't lessen his ability to speak on the issues of the day? I hope not. I agree with having difficulty in people using more than "moral persuasion" to make a point, whether they are religious leaders or political leaders. Doesn't make me a Quaker, however. I still remember a wonderful quote from a gentleman who claimed as a college student he was in the forefront of the peace movenment between world wars. Eric Severide (journalist) said, after experiencing the 2nd world war, he learned that (paraphrase) there were some things in life worth killing for, and some ways of living worse than death. Like I said earlier, one of the reasons I like scifi so much, is it allows us to pull apart a particular scenario/moral tangle and look at it in isolation. We don't have to "consider" the politics of what went "before", we just consider "what is". Once we find the center of a problem then I think its easier to come back to "real life" and review today's problems with a "less jaundiced" eye. At least, I hope we can. D47 Mindy, I really take offense to your comment about the Pope sticking his nose in the US politics. Do you really think Bush was going with what Pope John Paul told him? Ha, Bush played a very careful hand. Going with what would get him good poll numbers. That's all I hear now on the news, how Bush has gained respect from the American public for studing this issue and weighing his decision before he made it. This from people who agree and don't agree with his decision. Yep, his spin doctors played this one well. While my blood pressure is just now calming down, I must say I took your comment about the Pope as a slap in the face to me as a Catholic. He is a man, who is the leader of a religious group. There have been good Popes and bad Popes, just as there are good men and women and bad men and women. Bush, again playing the publicity game, while in Italy stops to visit the religious head of a large portion of US voters. He asked His opinion, what did you think he was going to tell him? It's politics Mindy, it's politics! I never thought I would read such a anti-Catholic post on this board. Regarding my feelings for my Pope, I respect him. He is a highly intelligent man. The main focus of his writings has been respect for human life, I suspect because of his personal experiences with the Nazis. I understant where his views and fears come from. Doesn't mean I agree 100% with him. I study his writings and views, then, as most Catholics, I make my decision. End of my rant! Di Phage and Stem Cell ?????? What I would like to know is how in the heck did we go from the episode "Phage" to stem cells. In my opinion the two have nothing to do with each other. The comments on the Pope were uncalled for. To say such things about someone who only thinks of human rights is not right. I am not catholic but I feel that an appology is in oder to all Catholics who might have been offended. Granted there are places where organ stealing has taken place. Personally I feel that politics and religion should be left out since these two subjects can become very heated. Lets stick to discussing the eisodes. Kathryn Me too Mindy- I also take offense at your comments about the Pope. Di hit my position pretty well. My only other add is that unlike the other religious figures you mentioned, the Pope is an official "head of state". The Vatican is a country (believe it or note), and as such, the US maintains diplomatic ties to the Vatican and it's head of state (the Pope). If you had written an anti-Islamic, or anti-African American post, you would have gotten a lot more negative response from others. As it is, I consider your words regarding my religion as very inappropriate. Please do not use this board to post your personal politics or religious diatribes. Sue_B Another plea to avoid politics/religion Things are getting a little heated, but the thing is it almost always get heated here whenever contemporary politics or religion are brought up. Bringing up either of those issues on a public forum is practically *guaranteed* to offend, irritate, etc. someone else. Just b/c we all love Voyager (and sometimes we don't always do that, much to david g and Deb 47's dismay!) doesn't meant we all agree on other topics. It is unfortunate, I suppose, that the Phage discussion corresponded somewhat with the ongoing debate of science and medical ethics in the US. But, I for one, get really uncomfortable *whenever* we veer into this area, cause someone eventually gets upset. So apart from what is causing conflict right now, I'd like to gently request that folks think before they post on off topic issues. It inevitably happens; we're human and we read the paper. But Deb is right --- while sci fi is being written and interpreted by contemporaries, it is a fascinating look at a future far removed from our own. Let's enjoy it and wrangle with Trek. And maybe we can talk about other safe subjects like the color of Tom's eyes. Too controversial? How about the weather? I hear it is pretty soggy in DC right now. Ruth, warm and dry in South Georgia. Okay, uncomfortably warm and trying to stay away from gnats and skeeters in South Georgia PS, sorry Jules if I am overstepping my bounds. Blessed are the peacemakers but they ruined a perfectly good fight. Okay, Ruthie, I just deleted my addition to the political ranting. No sooner did I get my blood boiling and finish a 30 minute rant then I see your post asking for people to cool off. Diane, please, please, please forgive me. Believe me, I am not anti-Catholic. Far from it...sometimes I think the only reason I can't accept Jesus as the Messiah is because my grandmother would turn over in grave. I have prayed to him. I have prayed to Mary. When my girlfriend died and I went to her memorial service, I felt a need to go up and take the bread and the wine...I said the "brucchas" (Jewish blesings over bread and wine) and said Kaddish for Kim...the minister laughed and thought it was great. People in the pews who know I'm Jewish were, to say the least of it, shocked. Didn't understand. Thought I was being irrelgious. Thought I was crazy. But I really felt the need to do it. For Kim. For myself. I think about God a lot. I truly believe s/he is present in each of us...the world is more than we know. I also believe that s/he is either laughing at us or is thoroughly disgusted by the crap that politicians (and others) are pulling in His/Her name. I think my anger about Bush being President, and the constant harping about God by politicians (on both sides...remember Joe Lieberman during the campaign?) has just gotten on my nerves so much that I see red every time I see a politician with a man of the cloth no matter what religion that man of the cloth is....like you, I think they see it as a "photo-op," nothing more. I'd like to think that Mr. Bush was/is speaking from his heart, but he scares me; this is a man who, when he was governor, said that "only Christians with Jesus in their heart get into heaven." (Even his mother was shocked, and publicly chided him. Then of course the spin doctors got busy....) And more importantly, the people who put him in office scare me. Did you ever read THE HANDMAID'S TALE, by Margaret Atwood? It is a story of the future, a future where the righteous right-wing faction of American politics has taken over the government. America as a theocracy. I feel like it's coming true. The destruction of the Constitutional law of "separation of church and state," the Bill of Rights Article stating Americans shall have "freedom of religion" seem to be eroding. These freedoms are what built this country, what brought Catholics, Jews, Greek Orthodox, Muslims, Buddhists, aetheists here to build new lives. I believe deeply that the new and growing louder evey minute movement to tighten/end immigration to this countryy is based on a fear by those in power of the other, the fear of the "dark man," the non-WASP...the WASP which as an ehtnicity is a minority in this world; and they know it. And so they act to preserve their territory. And threatened animals are dangerous. I don't know why so few people who know better haven't spoken out against his decision. And those who do aren't loud enough; why aren't they getting more press? I don't understand it. I think Bush's decision (which I call a "non-decison decison, as in a "non-denial denial") was purely political and total b.s.... He could not, cannot, afford to anger people like Orrin Hatch and other strong Republican leaders. He also could not, cannot, afford to offend those that put him in power. I know I sound paranoid, but I am convinced they exist. Call them corporate leaders, call them a star chamber, and I know I sound paranoid and like I've read one too many novels and watched one too many movies, but I believe they're real. But I really believe they are so dangerous to this country because they are winning. Anyway, I never meant to insult Pope John. I believe he is good man. I believe he is an honest man. And a man of deep faith. I even believe that George W. really did seek his counsel for personal reasons. What angers me is the way this was used as a political soapbox, as a way to promote George W.'s standing with the American public. I remember when JFK ran, the story that was propagated by those against him was that as a Catholic, he would be taking directions from the Pope. Now things have turned 180 degrees. I don't get it. Presidents should seek counsel with whomever they trust, I think; we can hope and pray that those they seek out are good men. But when that counsel is trumpeted for political purposes, I get crazy. I did not mean to equate Pope John with Pope Pius, although reading it over it sounds as if I was doing that. I think these two men are at opposite sides of the spectrum. Well, anyway, I am trying to explain myself, and to apologize, and now I'm afraid I'm going to insult you further, and/or other people here, who I consider friends. So I will stop now. I am deeply, deeply sorry. Please forgive me. Mindy I Forgive You Mindy No problem, Ruth. I agree with you. As it happens, I very nearly wrote a "let's cool it on the politics and religion" message myself last night (carefully excluding the scientific research, which is kind of on topic), but thought I'd hold off a little longer because... well, I always feel like I'm coming the heavy when I wade in and tell people to play nice. However, maybe a little reminder of the board's few rules - which are really more requests - is in order. I need to revise them slightly, because they're still too Voyager-specific for these post-Voyager (sniff) days, but the relevant one is:
You'll find it - and the other pleas for politeness and staying vaguely on topic - at: http://www.geocities.com/coffeenebula/discussion.html (scroll down to "Conditions Of Posting") Thanks. Jules Just a slight comment, Jules... Try to at least keep those off-topic posts relevant and on potential common ground. Talk about other sci-fi and cult television is fine, but keep the sports, politics and religion chat in check. It's invariably divisive and only of interest to a sub-set of the group... This was a Voyager board and sometimes the sports, politics and religion subjects are a lot more interesting to read than the latest reviews of Buffy and Farscape, which I don't watch. At least I read newspapers! Although I do watch WW occasionally, it might be a stretch to include it on this board as well. Mrs. Mac Home working because the railroad decided not to. A slight agreement I can hardly read or write about C/7 anymore. Mindy, don't worry I know you, and I just couldn't believe you made that statement. OF course I forgive you. I guess because I work in DC I know the publicity stunts that can't be avoided. It's part of the "game." I figure someone hatched this plan when he/she heard Bush was going to Italy. Usually when a head of state visits Italy, that person pays a political visit to all heads of state, the Italian President and The Pope (Head of the Vatican State). The President used The Pope for his purposes, not to say that The Pope hasn't used other heads of state, like Castro, for his purposes. Like I said, it's all part of the political game. This morning I heard the local all news radio station report that Bush's approval rating is up to 60% from 48% because of his decision on stem cell--see it worked. Di Remodelling the definition of off-topicness I take your point, Mrs Mac. Different things interest different people. But if I'd wanted to set up a board to cover the same ground as alt.politics.flamebait I'd have done it. I didn't. This board was created to discuss a science fiction television show, and by that token I'd say that discussion of other science fiction (in whatever media format), and other (non science-fiction) television shows and films is therefore probably closer to the common ground of the people it attracted to it than other subjects are. Not everybody will be interested in every alternative show that gets mentioned... but then not everybody here's that interested in certain aspects of Voyager. Or in some cases, any aspects of Voyager. There's no reason why if someone wants to continue a discussion along those lines they can't take it to email though... But I really would like to keep discussion of subjects like politics and religion down to what's at least on-topic to some of our off-topicy stuff. I come to the board to get away from all the heavy real-life stuff; if I'm in the mood to confront it or discuss it I'll do it elsewhere. And if my mailbox is anything to go by, I'm not alone in feeling that way. Jules Oh I agree with you there! Although I find interest in politics and religion, and enjoy reading the discussions, the Coffee Nebula is not the place for them! Mrs. Mac But FACES is a great, great ep It makes P/T for the first time not only plausible but mvingly right. Also, RD is SUPERB. Also a great Ken Biller script. VOY's first truly great episode? david g | ||
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I hate doing it. But then, I also hate it when people start ruffling each other's feathers so what can you do?