Time And Again

VOYAGER REVISITED: Time And Again
Jules -- 1 Aug 2001, 13:53 GMT

"Apparently you just happened to be at the wrong place at the wrong time." -- Terla

"I was just thinking the very same thing." -- Tom Paris

Jules

Starting the ball rolling...
Jules -- 1 Aug 2001, 13:55 GMT

I figured I might as well cheat and provide a link to the synopsis/review of the episode I did back in the days when I had more time than sense...

http://www.geocities.com/coffeenebula/ep103.html

I may comment more later on. As a staunch J/Per I'll definitely be watching the episode again.

Jules

Well, I watched my tape last night, and
Nina -- 1 Aug 2001, 22:40 GMT

I realized (let's have a shallow moment) this was the first "Janeway with her hair down" episode. Oh, Kate's beautiful. And RDM's not so bad...what? The episode? Oh, yes.

"A good, solid treatment of an old, dependable SF plot," I remember thinking the first time I saw this one. I still think so. Best moment for me: at the end, when Janeway has ordered the planet on viewscreen to reassure Kes that everything's OK. We see the Captain smile at her "senior Ocampa," and we know that SHE took Kes seriously whether or not anyone else did.

Smart lady, that Kathryn Janeway.

Re: VOYAGER REVISITED: Time And Again
Kathryn -- 1 Aug 2001, 22:56 GMT

Hi guys I must admit that I liked this episode maily because it was a way of bringing Janeway and Paris closer. I also like "time travel" even though this is not like the typical time travel. What I did'nt like was suddenly Kes had all these feelings. It seemed like they came out of nowhere. To me Kes seemed very fake in this episode. However concerning the prime directive Janeway orders Tom not to violate it but then she turns around and does it herself. I did'nt think this set a good example for a crew who was still trying to come together.

Kathryn

Re: VOYAGER REVISITED: Time And Again
Pixie -- 2 Aug 2001, 03:30 GMT

The first time this episode aired I was disappointed and little angry. I thought it didn't make sense to have two time paradox epsiodes in a row. It meant the masses would only think of Star Trek as being a bunch of gimicks, which sadly after the killer B's might be a accurate assertion. There was no real characterization or message here.

The episode itself was cute. I liked Janeway and Paris together. They should have put this later in the season and put a more serious episode in its place.

The only, only thing that makes me cringe
david g -- 2 Aug 2001, 04:48 GMT

Those hideous, 70s hell, outfits J and P wear as "townies."

Other than that, this is an enjoyable episode.

The hair on the revolutionary baddies is bad, too.

But I love Paris and Janeway (though not a J/Per)...i also really like B'Elanna, Harry, Tuvok, Chak, and Kes working together...

The punch to Janeway's face always seemed to me shockingly brutal.

I like the way Janeway figures out the "answer" before it's too late. It's a cool effect having her fire a phaser as B'Elanna and Co. fire a ray to help J and P...but in the end, this ep feels too tied to its cental gimmick...although I really like the sense of tragedy regarding the loss of the civilization... Paris--ever cuter or more likable?

That kid has GOT to go.

david g

Time And Again...again
Janey -- 2 Aug 2001, 06:18 GMT

SO of course I enjoyed it.

Kes' psychic abilities worried me a bit the first time around, but she didn't go totally Deanna on us for a long while. Whew.

This was Chak's first "in charge because the captain disappeared" episode. I like that he seems a bit hesitant and that he accepts everyone's input, including the kid's (Kes).

B'Elanna is an innovative engineer through and through. I LOVE seeing her like that. And her eager behavior to save the captain she hated two episodes ago and argued with the week before. The one who gave her a shot.

Tuvok gets thrown off a bit in this episode. He says it himself, he's used to the captain following HIS advice. It is his first real clue that he isn't going to be numero uno advisor much longer.

Harry is an adorable baby. That is pretty much all I can remember of him. So sweet, so innocent and so dedicated to his girl back home. I lvoe that boy.

Tom Tom Tom Tom Tom. I gotta admit, I thought (when the ep first aired) that with Tom's "people are going to be pairing off" speech at the beginning, I thought for SURE something would happen on the planet when he and Janeway got stuck there. Until they were only a day in the past. Had they been thrown back farther, it could have been a story straight out of fanfic. (But that comes later in Threshold!)

But anyway, Tom. He and Janeway have a fun relationship. I like it when they work together, as usual it is too bad this fell by the wayside. We see the first bits of that "oh, Tom" look but you know she is amused by whatever he just said or did.

Kes, I can never talk about Kes enough, has Janeway wrapped around her little finger (she has the whole crew wrapped around her finger for that matter). But someone tell me if I'm crazy:

Kes senses Janeway's presence when they walk through each other, right? Well when you're watching notice that just before this Kes walks down the stairs - right where Tom is sitting. But she doesn't sense Tom. She does however sense the captain. Now, this could be just a nitpick. But I have it set in my mind that this is more evidence of a bond between Kes and Janeway.

And of course Kathryn shows Kes the planet in the end. Kes gets whatever she wants from Kathryn Janeway, time and again.

Sorry about that last line, I couldn't resist!

All right, I admit it: I'm a giant sucker for time travel/paradox episodes.
Janeway216 -- 2 Aug 2001, 06:47 GMT

When your top three episodes are "Before and After", "Parallax", and "Future's End, Parts I and II", you know what your tastes are.

I agree that people's opinion of "Time and Again" was probably hurt by the fact that it was the second time travel episode in two weeks. Being that I saw everything all out of order, it didn't matter for me. I really like this episode. I love the way it builds towards that one point in time, forward from Janeway and Paris's perspective, and backward from the Voyager people's perspective.

Jules is quite right not to want to think about the Prime Directive issues and the paradox created by Janeway and Paris's going back in time. I usually have a pretty good grasp on paradoxes, and this one makes my head spin if I try to look at more than the surface of it. Janeway got it, though, which I do think adequately explains her abandoning the Prime Directive and telling the terrorists the truth. When you've already broken the Prime Directive just by being there, no matter how accidentally, and you know the place is doomed, why not go full out and try to save your hide? In for a penny, in for a pound.

Also, I think it plays on the theme of changes and contrasts. There's the major change, which really happens twice: Voyager's destroying the planet, and Voyager's saving the planet. There's Paris's antipathy for the nasty little kid, and then Paris's befriending the brat when he takes a hit for the shrimp. And of course, there's Janeway's change of mind.

Let me drop into gush mode for a moment . . . :drool: I love Kate Mulgrew's hair in this episode. They should never have taken her out of the wig! But david is right . . . those awful, tacky "civvies" have got to go.

And so do I.

216

Re: VOYAGER REVISITED: Time And Again
Mindy -- 2 Aug 2001, 16:44 GMT

I sorta liked it and sorta didn't...you know, of course, that I love time travel/time paradox stories, so I am always ready to watch them with an eager eye....on the other hand, this one felt somehow "off"...perhaps it's because the crew/cast are still getting their "sea legs." One thing that bothered me was Janeway referring to the temporal patches as "icebergs"...that made no sense to me...a better way to have described them would have been as "potholes"...something you fall into and have to avoid on the road, know what I mean?

One of things I always love is when the crew goes "on location"...shooting eps outside the studio. On the other hand, the place where they first showed up did not look a street to me...more like an enclosed mall. And it didn't feel like a big city, more like a small village. Lousy scenery design, imho.

The kid--I liked Tom telling him they were demons, it was so "Tom" of him, but you knew in a second he was going to be like a puppy, hanging around...also, let's face it, in a big city environment, such as New York, Chicago, etc., who notices how people are dressed? I mean, you notice, but unless they are REALLY weird, like the guy who stands in Times Square with the yellow python wrapped around him (swear to God!), you don't stop or even comment on them...so Katie and Tom should have been able to walk around wearing their uniforms...they weren't much different from what they put on...just take off the communicator badge, stick it in a pocket or carry it in your boot.

The Prime Directive stuff was b.s., I think, because I don't think TPTB ever really had a handle on what's it about. So that's why Katie kept seeming to swing back and forth (throughout the series, actually) on its definition and when they were interfering or not. That part always bothered me...but then again, Kirk was always throwing that PD stuff around and interpreting it according to his rules, so you could say Katie was just following his example!

At this stage, though, I generally felt that VOYAGER was struggling to find itself; they had abandoned the Maquis/Starfleet promising stuff, and now didn't seem to know what their "mission" was. Which was VERY annoying, and VERY disappointing.

Mindy

The best part was Janeway's nonPicardiness
david g -- 2 Aug 2001, 21:04 GMT

I like Picard fine but...

Here was the woman captain going on an Away Mission with her hair literally down...

Since I didnt regularly start watching VOY until S3, and had to catch up later, around S5, i only saw T&A much later...I found it a bit drab yet unusual and appealing in its offbeatness.

david g

You go, Janey! It's true. Kes senses KJ. Remember Coda?
suz -- 4 Aug 2001, 00:17 GMT

I hadn't realized it until I read what you wrote. Thanks.

The first time I saw this episode I thought, Ugh! This time I thoroughly enjoyed it. I loved the colors ("on location" as somebody said) the interaction between Janeway and Paris was dear. Paris threatening to eat the kid cracked me up.

Janeway with a phaser -- that's how I like to solve every problem!

suz

Well, I watched mine this morning.
Deb47 -- 4 Aug 2001, 15:45 GMT

"I've found myself on the Voyage of the Damned."

I agreed with you that first season, Nina, that they shouldn't have put 2 time travel eps together...

On the other hand... ... if they had to, this was the way to do it. The "time travel" eps were different in quality, and the basic tenet underlying them (Parallax = "Who's the Captain", and Time & Again = "What's the Prime Directive really about") were quite different.

There were LOTS of things I liked in this ep... starting with the DOCTOR! (Hey, it was a short scene, so he gets to go first.)

I loved the fact that he was stuck in Starfleet bureacratic tangles.... "My God. You're brain isn't on FILE!" or words to the effect. It showed us some of the continuing storyline of that "Voyage of the Damned"... the ordinary mundane things like reporting to sickbay to get yourself on file.

It showed us how everyone, even the computer programs were having to adapt to new ideas. "I'm" the chief medical officer, its MY job to get these brains and things on file. I can't "just" be activated when Paris cuts his hand or ensign eager stubs his toe.

Sure, he "had" this discussion with Janeway LAST week, when he reminded her HE should be informed if there's a type 4 quantum singularity in the area... but new crew aren't exactly "type 4" worthy news.

At least, not to her.

Speaking of continuity, I loved the "toned down" version of the Tuvok/Chakotay chest butting that went on in this episode. Not as flagrant or mouthy as in the Parallax teaser, but infused with nearly as much testosterone. I am referring to the conference room scene where Harry & B'Elanna tells them they want to go to the power plant to look for the Captain, and Tuvok disagrees. its a waste of time, since there was no logical reason for the Captain to go. Chak thinks there are BILLIONS of logical reasons, one being HE'D go! "You are not the Captain", or there abouts Tuvok reminds him.

The LOOK Chak gave Tuvok was classic, as he basically ignored his logic and sent his people to the power plant.

Speaking of continuity, I thought it was quite interesting that we see the flowering of Kes' mental abilities "this soon". As she reminded us, in "Caretaker" she'd made the statement about her people's mental abilities... and as Neelix reminded her... ... those abilities were more "legend" than "legendary". I for one liked the EMH's explanation for "why" they were becoming activated now. It "was" just a few days/weeks into their voyage, and her mind probably was "stretching its wings" for the first time.

I enjoyed the continuing adventures of the Tom & Harry show... "Harry, Harry, Harry..."

I smiled at the quintessential Neelix response to the "are you familiar with intelligent species in this sector" question. (When he doesn't know the answer, confuse them with footwork)

I loved Tom's reference to his Father, and Janeway's acknowledgment that she KNEW his father's greatest beliefs. (Sorry, J/P crowd, but this scene makes me think of Big sister/little brother, not potential lovers.)

I found it interesting that Harry was working so hard with B'Elanna to devise the escape route for the lost Captain, and was doing MUCH of the talking for B'Elanna during the conferences with Chakotay.

I didn't notice it the first time through, but I wonder if this was placed in season 4, if there would be a hue and cry that he was usurping B'Elanna's duties?

I thought then, as I think now, that the boss was letting her chief assistant run the briefing, allowing him the experience of interacting with the brass.

The boss was THERE, to pick up any pieces he may drop during the discussion.

But what I REALLY liked...

(besides Nina's observation that THIS was the first time we saw her with her hair down")

...was two things.

First.

Like in "Parallax", this episode served to bind someone to the Captain.

Paris was that person in "Caretaker".

B'Elanna was that person in "Parallax".

And, strangely enough... Kes was that person in "Time And Again".

"Captain?"

When Janeway heard that voice, and spun around, it was like the "penny dropped"... and she knew she had to seemingly BREAK the prime directive, in order to save it.

And THAT was the reason I really loved this ep.

It gave me a heroic Captain, who could think on her feet. Who needed her people to get her home, but didn't need her people to tell her the finer points of temporal mechanics, or the prime directive, or how to infiltrate a power plant already infiltrated with saboteurs, or how best to seal a subspace fracture before it intersected with a poleric generator.

Ladies and Gentlemen, it gave me one smart, good looking, action heroine of a Captain who knew when to bless an Ocampan with a smile.

Gotcha!

Thank-you.

D47

Re: "The Captain's / Teacher's pet"
Deb47 -- 4 Aug 2001, 15:56 GMT

You're "right" Janey.

Kes does have her wrapped around her little finger.

Who walked into a shrine filled with lethal bioelectric energy on the Off chance it would save Kes?

Who always entertained her in her quarters late at night if she "couldn't sleep", AND sent her home with a hug and a promise?

Who used to confess her own deepest darkest thoghts about pulling allnighters, or dreaming about her fiance?

Who nearly destroyed her ship and crew, while arguing her to stay aboard too long?

Who cried when she left?

Who indeed.

D47

As the saying goes...
Geordi -- 4 Aug 2001, 16:34 GMT

"Each to his/her own, that is."

I loved Tom's reference to his Father, and Janeway's acknowledgment that she KNEW his father's greatest beliefs. (Sorry, J/P crowd, but this scene makes me think of Big sister/little brother, not potential lovers.)

People see things differently than others. One can interpret this scene in many different ways. Us J/Pers see it one way while other see it the other way.

No big deal to us. We love this scene for we see it as good interaction between the two.

Small correction, Deb.
Nina -- 4 Aug 2001, 16:59 GMT

I was the one who noted this was the first time we saw the Captain's hair down, but not the one who had a problem with two time travel episodes. Can't remember which other person in the thread it was, though! I remember worrying a little as I realized (on first viewing) that it was going to use that old SF plot device, but I came away happy.

Which reminds me of how desperately I wanted this first "Trek" with a woman in command to do its job well, and make me proud. I was actually scared to let myself fall in love with it, for fear it would let me down.

Now, there's a battle I'm glad I lost!

Re: one man's meat...
Deb47 -- 4 Aug 2001, 18:12 GMT

Oh... I agree, Geordie. To each "his own"...

I was just stating why I don't "see" J/P... not that I can't understand why others "do" see it.

IDIC in all things.

In one quantum reality, J/P exists and is stunningly successful.

In another, J/C never died.

D47

Oops! Mea culpa, Mea culpa, Nina.
Deb47 -- 4 Aug 2001, 18:15 GMT

Open mouth, insert foot... YET AGAIN!

At least we agree with your LAST statement!

I read someone's con report from Blackpool... one of the Trektoday links... and I smiled to remember my own "kate awe" as I read her story.

SEE!

We are NOT alone, despite what some Voy bashers may suggest!

D47

"No biggie," and
Nina -- 4 Aug 2001, 22:32 GMT

OF COURSE we're not alone!

Tom and Janeway
Sherry -- 7 Aug 2001, 00:59 GMT

I loved Tom's reference to his Father, and Janeway's acknowledgment that she KNEW his father's greatest beliefs. (Sorry, J/P crowd, but this scene makes me think of Big sister/little brother, not potential lovers.)

Janeway and Paris usually appear to me the same way (either that or as a youthful auntie/nephew). To extend the analogy, I always got the impression that Paris saw her as something of the successful junior he expected Tom to be. Janeway, in her turn, treated Tom in some ways as an elder sister would a younger brother.

Sherry

Sherry...
Deb47 -- 7 Aug 2001, 01:50 GMT

Beware the ides of March...

or is that the ire of the J/Per?

Seriously folks, neither one of us got what we wanted... not even poor Beltran. He "got" the girl, but lost out on a meaningful role in the "endgame".

As Spock once said, HAVING is not as pleasing as wanting. It is not logical, but is frequently so.

D47

Not everyone is serious
Geordi -- 7 Aug 2001, 02:26 GMT

Seriously folks, neither one of us got what we wanted... not even poor Beltran. He "got" the girl, but lost out on a meaningful role in the "endgame".

As Spock once said, HAVING is not as pleasing as wanting. It is not logical, but is frequently so.

Well, I'm not the 'Having' shipper anyway.

Seriously, I know that I like J/P, but I knew that in canon, they'll never get together romantically, thus I hadn't gotten work up over it like some J/Cers, D/7ers, etc. when TPTB gave C/7 in "Endgame". I'm pretty satisfied with getting my J/P fix with fanfic and tiny J&P tidbits they had given on the show, like "30 Days", "Bride of Chaotica", etc.

I had thought this way when I had created the JuPiter Station thus I knew better than to try creating writing campaigns and other stuff to 'convince' TPTB that J/P was the way they should go. I have seen other shipper sites with such campaign thoughts and I knew they'll not work. Besides, it'll be less fun once a couple really is established on the show.

Anyone remember the TV series Lois & Clark: The Adventures of Superman? The chemistry between the characters worked well when they weren't involved officially, thus the sparks were flying. However, once the couple married, the sparks faded and the ratings for the show went spiriling down.

So I agree that having is not as pleasing as wanting. Most shippers should be please with just the 'wanting', but some want the 'having' and once they get that, it's no longer fun as it was before.

Yep!
maggie the cat -- 7 Aug 2001, 12:21 GMT

The sure way to kill a chemistry-charged TV-ship is to "have" it. E.g. Moonlighting, Frasier, Cheers, and countless others..... And some, like C/7, are dead in the water even before they are "had".

Not sure I entirely agree with you, Sherry.
Jules -- 7 Aug 2001, 18:52 GMT

Of course, I'm a J/Per. I'm not supposed to.

But seriously though, I do know what you mean when you say that you saw the big sister-little brother dynamic. I saw traces of that too. But then I also saw a certain amount of light flirting, from both parties, and... well, let's not go there.

I'd say that the two of them actually acted more like Tom was Janeway's friend's little brother than hers. So sometimes he was just that annoying little squirt, and sometimes he was a sensitive and astoundingly grown-up individual who she related to pretty well and was attracted to without it ever occurring to her to put him on her shortlist as a romantic prospect.

It seems to fit the circumstances and the way they acted in the first couple of seasons pretty well, anyway. After that the flirting seemed to stop, and from that point on you see Janeway playing adult to Tom's juvenile a lot more. Sadly, it seems that while they were moving on from that stage, and he was starting his pursuit of B'Elanna, they forgot to still be friends as well. But that's TPTB all over. They don't seem to be able to do complex and multi-layered friendships. One note is generally all you get.

Jules

Re: Yep!
Sherry -- 8 Aug 2001, 00:05 GMT

I had thought of "Moonlighting" right away--there are so examples of series with romances that are great until they actually happen. I'm sure most people can think of an example they've watched.

So I can say J/C wouldn't have lived up to what I envisioned if they had been paired on the air, and I don't think there's anything dreadful about imagining J/P together. Not in my imagination, but different visions are what groups of viewers like us are for!

Sherry

That really captures something
Sherry -- 8 Aug 2001, 00:15 GMT

"Janeway's friend's little brother" really does reflect the shifting dynamic between them. And we agree completely about one thing: the one-note way that TPTB protrayed relationships between characters.

Sherry

Re: J/P
maggie the cat -- 8 Aug 2001, 10:51 GMT

The funny thing about J/P is that at first I didn't see it but the more I read what J/P'rs had to say, the more I could see it. THis is in sharp contrast to other pairings, real and imagined, that haven't grown on me.

You or Jules said TPTB can't do complex relationships -- I would just add that one PTB in particular can't do them. He shall remain nameless because I don't want to be seen as indulging in more shameless bashing.

Just got back from a business trip & I'm posting my thoughts before reading the thread
D -- 9 Aug 2001, 02:15 GMT

I'm away only one week and there were 168 new messages.

A definite let down after "Caretaker" and "Paralax".

My least favorite Season 1 episode: Way too much technobabble. What was the costume department thinking when they designed the locals outfits? Why did Chakotay go with the away team when they're trying to rescue Janeway and Paris? Shouldn't at least one of the Senior Staff have stayed on Voyager? And who's in charge while they're all down on the planet? The eco-terrorists confiscate the com badges but Janeway and Paris are still able to understand them. This is a long standing gripe of mine, not just this episode.

Some positive comments:

The beginning of Kes trying to understand the extent of her mental powers.

Doc's being annoyed at not having medical histories for a lot of the crew, then realizing its his responsibility to get them. In "Paralax" he'd complained about having to deal with the "trivialities of medicine", but this seems to be the first time the full implications of being CMO really register. It does seem this issue should have come up before, but maybe Kes is the first non-fleeter to need medical attention since the crews merged (Doc treated Kes, Torres & Chakotay in "Caretaker", but they were visitors needing emergency care then so there wouldn't have been any concerns about medical records). I assume no one has gotten around to implementing Janeway's suggestion to integrate his program with the general database, since he doesn't know about what's happening on the planet.

Someone finally remembered to give Neelix and Kes combadges.

You are now of the body. Landrou! Landrou!
Ginny -- 9 Aug 2001, 03:11 GMT

Heh.

Oh for the heady days of Season 3, when a brave red-headed captain could lean, with impunity, against her bonnie helmsman's shoulder.